Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 100



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPlaR questions...
Re: Translator failure
RE: Justice...sort of...at last...
AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials update #7
Re: Chairdogs (Was: Initial Colonization Considerations I ...)
Re: Imperium Map Question
JG Traveller 4sale...
Re: Campaigns
Re: Campaigns
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: TravList] re- a call for starshipwrights, ship designs needed... REPLY (LONG)
Imperium Map 
Re: Thoughts on Jump Drive
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: Jump Gates
Re: Temporal Aspects of Jump Drive
Re: Translator failure

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:48:20 -0800
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: HEPlaR questions...

> From:          "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
> Subject:       HEPlaR questions...
>
> I'm designing a low-tech ship, so I'm examining HEPlaR...
> 
> What kind of power plant does HEPlaR require? In some sources it says it
> requires a fusion plant - in other sources it doesn't seem to matter.
> 
> Can it be added to a fission plant? Fusion is pretty hard do put in a small
> ship at low tech because of minimum size requirements...while a fission
> plant has no such problem.

The original (FF&S1) intention of HEPlaR was that it could use any 
power input, and that it simply heated the hydrogen reaction mass to 
a plasma state.  It was acknowledged that it was much too fuel 
efficient, but gave something of a hard-science feel while allowing 
characters to take off and land on planets with standard ships.

I don't have FF&S2, but others have posted that it has changed to 
requiring a fusion power plant.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:47:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Translator failure

At 04:35 PM 2/4/98 +0100, you wrote:
>><<Harold D Hale wrote:
>> Speaking of confusion, does anyone have any stories about players
>>attempting to use translator programs during encounters with new aliens and
>>roll spectacular failure?  How do you handle this?
>>>>
>
>There's a picture in World builders handbook of a Virushi failing a
>translation roll (he breaks the translation device).

For a great source of mis-translations, read Keith Laumer's "Retief"
series.. such indignaties as my language lacks!
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:00:28 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Justice...sort of...at last...

On Wednesday, 04 February, 1998 16:36, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk
[SMTP:aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk] wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <34D85509.41C67EA6@uni-trier.de>
> 
> V.A.G,
> 
> > MoS is out? What in it?
> 
> Scenarios for or involving Nobles. Sorry, can't be more specific yet 
> 'cos I haven't read it yet!

Eww...  What's up with the "rights of passage" cruise o' doom thing?
Desperate content...  Oh, spoiler warning...  Heh.  "The Gauntlet Cruise,"
eh?  Raight.  I guess I'll read the whole thing, but at least the cover's an
improvement over some previous, but Milieu:0's still my favorite (but why'd
the clip the cool clouds from the top of the front cover, but not the
back?).  Somebody get Chris Foss some new paint buckets, too.

* Nine "noble" missions relation (loosely from what I can see) to what
nobles do with their 'free time.'  [A stealth tax collection mission against
an "ancient noble house from the Emperor hisself?  Come on...]

* No new gear.  [Sorry, 'heads.]

* No new socio-political background [bummer!] that cannot be gleaned from
the plot (i.e. no long-winded dissertations that I love so much).

* No obvious, glaring typos, formatting boo-boos that I could see whilst
perusing so far.

* Interesting insertions of modern US slang: somebody tell the editor that
"My bad" [meaning 'my mistake' for those not familiar with it] may work for
prime time sitcoms and Hollywood, it just doesn't evoke "Traveller" to me.
'Wilkins, fire the Solomani, and get me a good Vilani editor!'

* More later...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

"Surely truth leads to virtue, and virtue leads to paradise." -Bukhari
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:46:11 -0500
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials update #7

I have received one complaint from a person on the TML who does not
wish this to be posted there.  I have respected this, but believe that
it is acceptable to post it infrequently as I will do from now into the
future.  Please forward any comments regarding this to
pmiller@linkeasy.net

I've deciced to auction off my Traveller collection of materials ranging
from Classic to 4th Edition.  Some of the items below are in good shape,
and are good finds.

First, the rules:
1)  Please bid only with the intention of buying
2)  All bids in United States currency (even though I'm in Canada!)
3)  Buyer pays shipping from oakville, Ontario, Canada
4)  I reserve the right to remove items or reject bids without reason
5)  Only bids received at pmiller@linkeasy.net or ICQ#5294589 witll be
    processed and accepted.
6)  The auction begins January 26th 1998, 1am, and ends 2/9/98 midnight
7)  I reserve the right to increase or decrease the auction length
8)  All bidders are automatically placd on the mailing list.  E-mail me
    to be removed.

Second, the conditions guide (from Titan Games)
M=Mint       - We took it out of the shrinkwrap (for some reason)
and                  put it up for sale; looks like it's right from the
               printer's
NM=Near Mint - Corners or Binding have minimal or no wear
VF=Very Fine - Corners, Binding have small wear, 
               Cover may be slightly scuffed
F=Fine       - Corners, Binding, or Cover have wear or small creases
G=Good       - Corners, Binding, or Cover more wear, large creases or 
               scuffing
Fa=Fair      - Corners, Binding, or Cover very worn, many creases and
               much scuffing
P=Poor       - Corners, Binding, or Cover excessively worn, possible 
               tears in cover

Third, the items:  (latest bidder's alias and bid underneath) - MIN BID

MegaTraveller Boxed Set (Imperial Encyclopedia, Referee's Manual,
Player's Manual, Spinward Marches poster map) MT
        - BOX is FAIR, CONTENTS are VERY FINE - wlewis $20

Traveller Boxed Set, digest sized (Books 1-3) CT
        - BOX is GOOD, CONTENTS are VERY FINE - rstanek $75

Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller (CT)
        - VERY FINE - T4Aslan $12

Book 4: Mercenary (CT)
        - FINE - T4Aslan $10

Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches (CT)
        - FAIR - T4Aslan $8

Adventure 9:  Nomad's of the World-Ocean (CT) 
        - VERY FINE - T4Aslan  $8

Double Adventuee 3: Death Station\Argon Gambit (CT) 
        - VERY FINE - sylvain $12

Double Adventure (FASA): The Stazhlekh Report\The Harrensa Project (CT)
        - FINE - Timothy.Collinson $20

Marc Miller's Traveller Rulebook (T4)
        - GOOD - electric-stitch $11

Pocket Empires (T4)
        - FINE\VERY FINE - J-man $15

Emperor's Arsenal (T4)
        - MINT - J-man $12

Challenge Isuses #57
        - FINE - subbob $4

Challenge Issue #63
	- FINE - subbob $4

Challenge Issue #70 
        - FAIR - subbob $4

Megatrveller 101 Vehicles (MT)
        - FINE - igor $15

Megatraveller's Referee's Gaming Kit (MT) 
        - VERY FINE - j-man $16

Traveler: The New Era  Rulebook (TNE) - December 1993
        - MINT - darth $15

All bids to pmiller@linkeasy.net
- -- 
_________________________________Peter J. Miller
pmiller@linkeasy.net                ICQ #5294589
  ----> http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ <-----       
"When the first link in the chain is forged; the
first speech censored, the first thought 
forbidden, the first freedom denied; it chains
us all irrevocably." - Jeri Taylor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:29:58 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Chairdogs (Was: Initial Colonization Considerations I ...)

At 10:36 PM 2/4/98 GMT0, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <v02140b01b0fe39145ff9@[192.121.125.205]>
>
>Anders,
>
>> > And I wish Herbert would write more stories in this series.  N.B.
>>  
>> He will probably not write any more stories - he is dead.
>
>Never stopped Asimov, Hubbard, Tolkien, etc

Andrew,

Don't forget the Greatest of the *Ghost* Writers!!!!!!!!!
Drums Please, Trumpet Fanfare, Pipers Please

L. Ron Hubbard

He has *written* more since his death than before, well he does have all
that *time* on his hands.<G>

<G>

Engage the the White Globe, violate the *canon*, use the incoming energy to
charge the jump drives, jump when charged, anywhere but here.<G>
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:37:19 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperium Map Question

In a message dated 98-02-04 16:23:01 EST, you write:

<< > Oh, man, did I love that Spinward Marches map.  Full color with the matte
 > black.  I wonder if anyone has one of these available?  Hell, I'd settle
for a
 > large jpg or gif version.  I wonder how difficult to would be to make one
 > (time to start playing with my CorelDraw).  :-)
 
 A similar one came with the MT boxed set.
  >>

There are various versions... the pre-Rebellion version, and the Rebellion
version.

Notice the blank sector map in MT (printed I think in the Ref's Companion)
which is the Spinward map with the worlds blankeed out... thus some hexes are
unnumbered.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:15:33 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: JG Traveller 4sale...

Ok...still weeding through my collection and selling off the duplicates. 
Below are the latest items I have to offer. All prices included postage
within the US & Canada (add $2 *per order* - not per item - for everywhere
else).

        $15     Marooned on Ghostring" by Walter & Dorthy Bledsaw. 
                (c) 1981 - Judges Guild, 30 pages plus large world-map.
                Mint condition (still shrink-wrapped).

        $15     "Amycus Probe" by Dave Sering.
                (c) 1981 - Judges Guild, 30 pages.
                Near Mint condition.

        $11     "The Adjutant, Set #1: Air Cushion Vehicles" by Mark Schmidt.
                (c) 1990 - The Adjutant, 32 pages.
                Near Mint condition (sticker on cover).

        $11     "The Adjutant, Set #2: Aircraft, Rotart & Fixed Wing" By M.S.
                (c)1990 - The Adjutant, 32 pages.
                Near Mint condition (sticker on cover).

        $11     "The Adjutant, Set #3: Track Laying" by Mark Schmidt.
                (c) 1991 - The Adjutant, 32 pages.
                Near Mint condition (sticker on cover).

        $11     "The Adjutant, Set #6: Waterborne" by Mark Schmidt.
                (c) 1991 - The Adjutant, 32 pages.
                Near Mint condition (sticker on cover).

        $11     "The Adjutant, Set #10: Wheeled, Combat" by Mark Schmidt.
                (c) 1991 - The Adjutant, 32 pages.
                Near Mint condition (sticker on cover).

        $5      "Space Gamer" #60
                Feb. 1983 - "Robot Safari" (Generic SF adventure).
                Good condition.

Please contact me off of the list at: timmon@primenet.com

Thanks,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 20:56:55 -0500
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Campaigns

My campaign is located in the Spinward Marches around the years 1105 (the
present time in game is 102-1105) and the characters are presently on the
planet Porrozlo.

I led the characters around the Marches using the Twilights Peak scenario.
During the search for the location for the fabled base, the group discovered
(among other things): an insane miner who ate his companions 30 years before
he met the group (and hid the bodies in an octagonal building on Kinorb), a
slaving ship that had crashed on another world, killing all the unfortunates
on board and giving the group the outrage required to chase after the
organisation sponsoring the ship and an ancient evil that has decided to
kill the group for no reason (at least that they have figured out by now).
They also met an insane king on Porrozlo (Derek the XXIII, God King of
Saanth) and a strange alien that generates crystals from her body that
"carry" emotions through them (Does it have a relation with the strange
jewel in a dagger that makes the wielder feel pain?).

All in all, an average day in the Spinward Marches...  Oh yea, there are
rumors of a conflict in the Navy between supporters of one admiral and the
Duke of Regina.

At the end of every evening, I type the notes from that session, I now have
100 pages.  It also helps me keep track of all the NPC that the characters
have met before...

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca



At 22:35 03/02/98 -0600, Vic&Amy Canada wrote:
>I'm curious about how many of you have your campaigns take place within
>the existing worlds of Traveller and how many create your own sectors?
>
>If you create your own, where do you place your sectors in relationship
>to the existing sectors?
>
>Are there any of you who still use the original rule books with your own
>version of the history?
>
>I haven't actually played in years and over time I've pulled out the old
>materials (original rule books) and work on some of my sectors,
>scenarios, and old campaigns.  I've started converting one of the old
>campaigns into a book.  Anyway, just curious about what you do.
>
>
>Vic
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 20:16:31 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Campaigns

> the existing worlds of Traveller and how many create your own sectors?
> 
> If you create your own, where do you place your sectors in relationship
> to the existing sectors?
> 

MegaTraveller.  I rebuild the published sectors in 3 dimensions, overlay
known stellar data and then lay sectors above and below for a shperical
Imperium.  My work has a lot of artistic lisence but leads to unexpected
environments, geographical relationships and visual aspects 2d Trav
doesn't have.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 20:16:23 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

> Actually, what I envisioned was not a sale of information, but an exchange
> of information in the interest of public safety.  Have you read the
> description of the business ring?

Yeah, I saw a bit of it.  I admit what sounds common to us is the Rand
McNally Highway  Atlas of tomorrow.  (It is megabuttloads of info.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:42:06 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: TravList] re- a call for starshipwrights, ship designs needed... REPLY (LONG)

Richard,

Funny you should ask....  ah, hum...

Hello and thank you for the inquiry,

Please find attached the specification for the proposed Sword Class 10000std
Cruiser. It is intended as an independant patrol vessel, in addition to
fleet operation roles.  The specification speek for themselves. However let
me highlight some of the features that may not be readily apparent.

The centerpiece of the Sword class' offensive armament is the 4X4 missile
bays, allowing an substantial 16 missile to hit space at one salvo, and
magazines carrying enough ordinance to launce 76 salvos. In addition 4 Heavy
laser bays are backed by 12 Light Lance laser turrets. The shipboard weapons
are intended to be suplimented with 12, 15std Flacette Fighters (still in
testing stages) and 5 50std Transported (also in retro-fit design at this
time).

Of course crew comfort is more spartain on this vessel than your Highliner,
however there is more than sufficient entertainment for the crew, each of
the crew compartments, with a total capacity of 300, contains bunks
incorperating individual sterio monitors tied to the ships entertainment
computer, allowing access to hundreds of prerecorded videos. Three fully
equipted gymnasiums are also incorperated in the ship's design. There are 44
Junior Officer cabins, and 16 Senior Officers staterooms. These numbers are
slightly higher than the maximuim crew (which allows for contious 3 shift
operation) and the 60 Marine contengent normally carried by the Sword Class,
allowing some flexibility in the exat crew composition.

The Sword Class also mounts an ample sensor suite, including back ups.

Purchase Price  $25,673,433,544
Down Payment  $5,134,686,709

While the price for the Sword Class is rather steep, you must ask yourself,
"What price security?!". Volume discounts may be arranged.

Please look over these specifications a feel free to comment. At Merlin
Enterprises we pride ourselves on flexibility in all of our programs and are
willing to entertain any reasonable ideas for modifications to this, or any
of our designs.

Thank you for this oppertunity,
C. Maxwell, Executive Programs Director,
Merlin Enterprises

(Specifications follow below)
- -----Original Message-----
From: RSpake2064@aol.com <RSpake2064@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 2:20 PM
Subject: TravList] re- a call for starshipwrights, ship designs needed...
<major snipage proformed here>

>thanks for the help in advance...
>Richard

Sword class Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by Merlin Enterprises, Poitesme Yards

Statistics
 Tons: 10,000std ( SL Sphere Hypersonic )
 Volume: 140,000m3
 Mass (L/C): 163,140t/148,091t
 Dimensions: 64.4m diameter
 Size: 10

Crew: 166/290
Passengers High/Med: 0/0
Passengers Low: 0
Troops/Science: 0/0
Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)

Electronics
 Controls (/Ar: 0 [20]): Dynamic, High automation. 1xFltComp (CM:0.35
CP:2.86). 3xComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). 3xFibComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Bridge
(/Ar:0[2]).
 Communications (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xRadio Rec. (50,000km, 0.00MW). 1xRadio
(50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
 Sensors (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xPas. Scanner (14 [50mkm], 0.08MW). 1xAEMS (12
[1.6mkm], 25.00MW). 1xLIDAR (15.5 [5mkm], 6.00MW).
 Survey/Science (/Ar :0 [20]):
 ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (50,000km, 0.03MW).
 Signatures: Vis:1.0, IR:1.0 (1.0 at 39,936MW, 1.0 at 4,170MW), Act:0.5,
Neu:1, Grav:1

Performance
2 Jump (1,000std/pc fuel)
3.4/3.8 Maneuver (/HEPlaR:28,000MW,6.5 /)
1.7/1.9 (Thruster:7,000MW)
1.7/1.9 Contra-grav (4,760MW)
4,819kph/4,955kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3,614kph/3,716kph)
8 Power (/Fus:41,700MW,1.0)
1000 Battery (63.94/54.3/20.2)
3,259.3 Fuel (/Scoop:8 /Purif:18,91MW)
300/44/16/0/20 Accomodations
1,600 Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
3 G-Comp
100 ESA (/ROD:0)
6 Sandcasters ( /AV:10 /Cans:10)
10 Damper Turrets (2MW /Rng:3,000km)
0 Damper Screen
20 Meson Screen (0.64MW)
0 Force Field
0 Gravtics
30 [120] Armor, 40 Structure

Weaponry
9xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 50,000km (/Ar: 0 [20]))
12xHeavy Laser Turret (+4) 1/0-0-0-0 [2,50/9-5-2-1] (LR)
 4xHeavy Laser Bay (+4) 1/6-6-6-6 [4,50/61-61-61-56] (LR)

4xMissile Bay Auto 4/4 ( /Mag:76 /MFD:500,000km)
w/84 Command DetLaser1d6/2 6.0G12 1000AU

Features
 90xAirlock
 2xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)
 1xSickbay (8std ea.)
 1xArmory (3.57std ea.)
10xDecontamination Airlock
2xMachine Shop (10std ea.)
2xShip's locker (5.00std ea.)
3xGym (2.5std ea.)
4xFull Galley (Cap:100)
4xPrisoner Capacity (2/1/1)
1xbreifing room(60.00std ea.)

Small Craft

12xMinHgr (15std, 12 hatches)
4xMinHgr (50std, 4 hatches)
 1xSpacHgr (70std, 0 hatches)
 50xJetBay (6std)

Backups
 Screens: 1xESA generator (/AV:100). 1xMeson Screen (/PV:20).
 Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km). 1xLaser (50,000km).
 Sensors: 1xPas. Scanner (14 [50mkm]). 1xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm]). 1xLIDAR (15.5
[5mkm]).


Crew Details
 6xMnvr. 113xEngr. 6xMain. 26xGunn. 14xScrn. 26xFlgt. 60xTrps. 41xCmnd.
9xStew. 3xMed.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:57:50 -0600 (CST)
From: searles@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Imperium Map 

Marc,

If you would please send me your address so I could get a map also.


Pat

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:48:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Jump Drive

In mail you write:

> Shadow wrote:
>
>>And it should be possible to take advantage of the planet's velocity by
>>choosing the right departure direction.
>
> Hmmm, it seems that those in the Far Future will be looking to hit a window
> just like astronauts in the here and now.

Well, there will be times of year when it costs less in fuel to jump to
a given system. But it won't be much worse than the current situation
for aircraft or ships dealing with adverse wind conditions. You can
still do it, it just costs a bit more in fuel.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:58:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

In mail you write:

> No arguments there.  One of the reasons I keep mentioning the 
> business ring as being capable of doing the calculations, is that 
> I envision a spacers ring that automatically deluges the collected 
> data on the most recent jumps to all other spacer's rings while 
> getting the data they have.  Then when the captain, pilot, 
> navigator, etc. gets back to the ship, it automatically downloads 
> the information.

I seriously doubt it'll get *that* miniaturized. Why? Well, I just took
apart a couple of TV remote controls yesterday (I found one, and after
looking at it I examined the one for my set to confirm what I'd found).
The components *other* than the keypad will fit in a thimble with lots
of room left over. One *small* IC, a tyransitor, a IR diode, a crystal,
3 caps, and a couple of resistors.

All that space is to make the thing easier to handle and hard to lose.
I expect that watch sized units will exist. Rings are exposed to too
much banging around. And notebooks will be useful as you have a decent
sized display and writing surface.

> But then a nasty competitor might feed you faulty data.  But of 
> course, that would probably be against the law.  Hooks, hooks, 
> hooks, everywhere I look are hooks.

In any scheme like that you'd identify all data with a *source*. And if
you got data from several sources, you'd store all of it, and offer the
user the option of deciding which source to trust if they differ.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:20:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Gates

In mail you write:

> It's years since I saw it, but I don't remember this either. IIRC the 
> only mention of j-torps was Adv4. CT *did* go through 2 editions, so 
> maybe this was dropped from 2nd Ed (and this would explain where the 
> authors of Leviathan got the idea)?
>
> The people doing the CD project better check which edition they're 
> using...

Frankly, I'm pushing for there to be a file listing differences between
editions.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:29:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Temporal Aspects of Jump Drive

In mail you write:

> Leonard chicken-pecked:
>> Easy. You can synchronize clkocks across interstellar distance with
>> maser or laser comm. It just takes a decade or two. So the scientists
>> send a signal over the link when the ship jumps, and the scierntists at
>> the other end send a signal back when the ship arrives. Several years
>> later the signals arrive and are compared with local clock data.
>
> Hmmm...  Does that speed o' light vary, though?  Hypothetically, a super
> thick pane of glass between "us and them" accelerates the sync beam for
> whatever period of time/distance (or some other gravitic type interference
> I'm sure could do the same thing) and you're off by X.

Remember, you are exchanging signals *both* ways. So you know the round
trip time. And half of that *has* to be the time the light takes. This
is as good as you can get, give the way relativity works.

> "They" tell us that we can sync our clocks by quasars, but how the heck do
> we descendants of Sumer know?  We've never been anywhere else...  Psionics
> are the one true way, children.  Invent the ansible and be happy.  Otherwise
> you'll never know what time it is in the Marches, or the price of eggs on
> Vega.

That's "pulsars" not "quasars". 

> Anyone remember Star Frontiers by T$R?  Accelerate to a certain speed (was
> it 10% of the speed of light?) and you automatically fell into subspace...

Slight problem. 10% or light speed relative to *what*? Right now you
are moving a lot faster than that relative to various distant stars.
And relative to things like cosmic rays.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:44:00 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Translator failure

At 12:41 PM 2/3/1998 +0000, you wrote:
>
><<Harold D Hale wrote:
> Speaking of confusion, does anyone have any stories about players
>attempting to use translator programs during encounters with new aliens and
>roll spectacular failure?  How do you handle this?
>>>

Here's another possibility: remember the Star Trek NextGen
episode with the Pakled -- the race of "slow" hijackers?
Who had such witty dialogue as:
   "We look for things make us go."
   "Our ship broke."
   "Please help us."

Evidently the scriptwriters didn't think of
it, but it occured to me that Picard might have 
ordered a diagnostic run on the translator just
to make sure it wasn't "overtranslating" things.
   After all, if the translation was erroneously
oversimplified, the message:
     "We are dilithium prospectors. Our vessel
has suffered a critical malfunction in our warp
core. We request assistance..."

...would come out much like the baby-talk above.


JB

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #100
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 101



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #95
Ghostwriters (was Chairdogs)
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Standard Hulls and BIGHULL.TXT
Re: Jump Gates
Re: sophonophagism
Re: Campaigns
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Campaigns
re : Sword class cruiser
English? (was Justice...sort of...at last...)
TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Impending LOS
Re: chair dogs
Re: Chairdogs
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: Broccoli (Word for 'eating intelligent beings')
Re: Sophonophagism
Heplar
Re: From The Archives (Was Imperium Map Question)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:46:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

In mail you write:

> * Interesting insertions of modern US slang: somebody tell the editor that
> "My bad" [meaning 'my mistake' for those not familiar with it] may work for
> prime time sitcoms and Hollywood, it just doesn't evoke "Traveller" to me.

So *that* is where it came from. I've seen it around, but just put it
down to the typical poor English all too many kids have these days. 

Gee, I wonder which shows use *that* atrocity?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:57:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #95

In mail you write:

> SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
>>Interestingly, the Titanic's basic design still complies with the Solas
>>(Safety of Life at Sea) Standards adopted following the sinking.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised; the basic design wasn't bad but it was hardly
> "unsinkable".  Compare to the extreme compartmentalization used by the
> Great Eastern which had a double hull, and a truly large number of 
> watertight compartments (as compared to 7 aboard the Titanic).
>
> One interesting bit of speculation (that will probably remain speculation, 
> since there's no good way of proving it), is that the Titanic was also built 
> with steels that became very brittle in the cold (this property wasn't known 
> at the time).  This theory was mentioned in an issue of _Naval History_ 
> sometime within the last year or so.

It's been tested with a plate recovered from the Titanic. At the temp
of the water at the time of the accident the stuff practically
*shatters* when given Charpy test.

> It's also worth noting that the Titanic's sister ship, Olympia, sank rather
> rapidly after striking a mine (or perhaps being torpedoed) while serving as
> a hospital ship in WWI.

The TV program that showed the test above also tries to find that ship.

> There's no need for him to sell his computer.  Just reformat the disks and
> install Red Hat Linux (I'd say the new version of Red Hat is an easier
> install than NT, any day of the week).  ;-)

When I get the money, I plan to have a network with the following
systems on it:

PC running DOS
PC running OS/2
PC running Win 95 (or successor)
PC running Win NT
PC running Linux
Mac

And if I can handle the interfacing issues, I'll have some old 8-bit
systems linked in. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 07:06 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Ghostwriters (was Chairdogs)

Moin Sam Thomas,

	the product announced here, can be found on any second ftp server.

> >> > And I wish Herbert would write more stories in this series.  N.B.
> >> He will probably not write any more stories - he is dead.
> >Never stopped Asimov, Hubbard, Tolkien, etc
> Don't forget the Greatest of the *Ghost* Writers!!!!!!!!!
> Drums Please, Trumpet Fanfare, Pipers Please

Regarding Ghostscript: I hate to say this to you but I've already
implemented a Ghostscript interpreter. I'm happy to see that someone else
has recognized the need dead people have for computers. I have included an
example of the output of my Ghostscript at the end of this letter.

The interpreter is written in a language called cant-C, developed by Mr.
Turing last year. The compiler is easily ported to any environment you
care to name. I would be more than happy to send you a copy, but you must
first contact my lawyer for this venture, Thomas Jefferson of Phila. Pa..
(As a side note, Mr. Jefferson is very excited by Ghostscript. Look for
The Declaration of Independance V1.1 RSN).

The possibilities for Ghostscript go far beyond Deathtop publishing, I'm
sure you'll agree. I have contacted numerous authors who may be interested
in using Ghostscript (Shakespeare, Hemingway, etc) and all have been very
excited by what they've seen. (Shakespeare wants to write a modern Romeo
and Juliette, called Romeo and Julio, the story of 2 gay hispanic men kept
apart by their parents.) 

Anyway, here is the Ghostscript example I promised. Feel free to show this
to your friends and colleagues, I'm sure they'll all be suitably impressed.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:30:12 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

Shadow wrote:

>> * Interesting insertions of modern US slang: somebody tell the editor
that
>> "My bad" [meaning 'my mistake' for those not familiar with it] may work
for
>> prime time sitcoms and Hollywood, it just doesn't evoke "Traveller" to
me.

You mean to tell me that actual English (well, American English) speaking
people actually use that expression?  When I saw it in some of the posts on
the TML, I assumed it was a misconstruction by one of our English as a
second language people.  They can be expected to misconstruct our language,
but home groan errors like that are (to me) unbelievable.  I suppose it's
ebonics.

>So *that* is where it came from. I've seen it around, but just put it
>down to the typical poor English all too many kids have these days.
>
>Gee, I wonder which shows use *that* atrocity?

I don't, except to know which ones to avoid in my limited TV watching time.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:45:27 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Standard Hulls and BIGHULL.TXT

Does anyone know the formulas used in generating the Standard Hulls in the
T4 rulebook and the BIGHULLS.TXT file?  I'm going to incorporate them in my
attempt at a CAD spreadsheet and that file is c 200 Kb.  I'm sure that using
the formulas would take up considerably less space.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 22:39:59 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Gates

On 02/04/98 at 03:35 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>Yes, my original 1977 LBB book 2 has the following on page 18: "Other
>types of missiles are possible (for example, jump capable message
>torpedoes, or bombs for attacks against planetary syrfaces)), but such
>require either specific alterations to ordinary torpedoes, or location of
>an arms supplier who deals in such items."

I was going to post that the passage was in my LLB, but was beaten to the
punch.

One thing I note is that this special "jump capable message torpedo's" size
isn't mentioned. It could still be a 100dt vehicle. It would be a *big*
honking torpedo, but would still meet the size limitations.  Not that
meeting the size limitation is that big a deal, is it? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:03:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: sophonophagism

In mail you write:

> traveller@mpgn.com,Internet writes:
>>Someone has suggested sophonophagism.  That sounds like as good a name as
>>any for the eating of a sapient species.  Of course if you murdered them
>>first, then there would be an additional charge of sophontocide.
>
> Why should the eating be a crime?  Disrespect of the dead, maybe, but then
> you could also include disturbing burial grounds!
>
> I'd say that sophonophagism is a social blunder in Imperial society, but
> not actually a crime per se, as long as you have legally acquired the
> protein.

It may not even be a social blunder. I can see societies where the
deceased is reverently consumed (at least the parts ruled edible by the
coroner) at the wake. Won't *that* shake up your players.

I can even see societies where condemned criminals are sold as meat.
Somehow I can't see you acquiring "kreef" that way, but long pig is
possible. It's also possible in some societies for a person to will
their remains to someone. I've met folks working thru the legal mess
for this so they can will their tattooed skin for artistic displays,
and even to will some bones for use in an art project. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:39:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaigns

In mail you write:

> I'm curious about how many of you have your campaigns take place within
> the existing worlds of Traveller and how many create your own sectors?
>
> If you create your own, where do you place your sectors in relationship
> to the existing sectors?

I'd *like* to use my own sectors if I ever get time to game again, but
the existing sectors make that kinda hard as the Imperium is pretty
much surrounded.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 03:02:17 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

>* Interesting insertions of modern US slang: somebody tell the editor that
>"My bad" [meaning 'my mistake' for those not familiar with it] may work for
>prime time sitcoms and Hollywood, it just doesn't evoke "Traveller" to me.
>'Wilkins, fire the Solomani, and get me a good Vilani editor!'

I'm sure in a couple thousand years they'll be using slang that we haven't
even dreamed of yet...  Geez, look how much slang has actually changed in just
60 years in the U.S. and in Britain!  :)

"This Trader is PHAT, yo!  Jump Three?  That Drive is off the hook!  Yo, I'm
all _about_ engineering..."

or

"This Trade Ship is the _limit_!  Jump Three?  Isn't that just the bees-knees?
When it comes to engineering, I'm on the trolley!"

When meeting locals in a hostile situation:

"Yo, backdaf***UP!  You steppin'?  I'll bus' a few caps in yo' a** with my
plasma gun!  You think that combat armor'll protect ya, you been straight
trippin'.  Check yo'self _now_!"

Actually, all of the above sound kind of like my Traveller sessions already...

Sorry...  Weird mood.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 03:08:18 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

>So *that* is where it came from. I've seen it around, but just put it
>down to the typical poor English all too many kids have these days. 
>
>Gee, I wonder which shows use *that* atrocity?

Nah...  Probably didn't originate with TV or movies.  Stuff that's in as
common usage as that phrase tends to pick up on their own...

And, yeah, its poor English I guess, but where would we be if language never
changed?  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 03:14:28 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Campaigns

 > If you create your own, where do you place your sectors in relationship
> to the existing sectors?
> 

Currently, I'm running a game in the Daibei sector, with subsectors I created
myself.  Not a big fan of the canon subsectors (nothing wrong with them, its
just, why dedicate pages to world building if you're not going to use the
rules?)...

In addition, I've always found it easier to run a game in a locale I've
invented myself rather then published ones.  Easier for me to imagine the
relationships between things and such when I create instead of read.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 18:32:38
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : Sword class cruiser

At 01:04 AM 5/02/98 -0500, you
>
>Sword class Cruiser (FF&S v2)
>Designed by Merlin Enterprises, Poitesme Yards
>
>Statistics
> Tons: 10,000std ( SL Sphere Hypersonic )
> Volume: 140,000m3
> Mass (L/C): 163,140t/148,091t
> Dimensions: 64.4m diameter
> Size: 10
>
>Electronics
> Controls (/Ar: 0 [20]): Dynamic, High automation. 1xFltComp (CM:0.35
>CP:2.86). 3xComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). 3xFibComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Bridge
>(/Ar:0[2]).
> Communications (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xRadio Rec. (50,000km, 0.00MW). 1xRadio
>(50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
> Sensors (/Ar: 0 [20]): 1xPas. Scanner (14 [50mkm], 0.08MW). 1xAEMS (12
>[1.6mkm], 25.00MW). 1xLIDAR (15.5 [5mkm], 6.00MW).
> Survey/Science (/Ar :0 [20]):
> ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (50,000km, 0.03MW).
> Signatures: Vis:1.0, IR:1.0 (1.0 at 39,936MW, 1.0 at 4,170MW), Act:0.5,
>Neu:1, Grav:1

I dont like the lack of redundancy in sensors and communicators. Ooops,
they are redundant :) Ignore that :)

>
>Performance
>2 Jump (1,000std/pc fuel)
>3.4/3.8 Maneuver (/HEPlaR:28,000MW,6.5 /)

Have you got enough helplar reaction mass to sleaze another jump-1 if
neccessary ?

>1.7/1.9 (Thruster:7,000MW)
>1.7/1.9 Contra-grav (4,760MW)

Jump is adequate at Jump-2. Maneuver of 5.1 gees is excellent :)

>4,819kph/4,955kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3,614kph/3,716kph)
>8 Power (/Fus:41,700MW,1.0)
>1000 Battery (63.94/54.3/20.2)

I take it thats 1000 MW for 1 hour ?

>3,259.3 Fuel (/Scoop:8 /Purif:18,91MW)
>300/44/16/0/20 Accomodations
>1,600 Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
>3 G-Comp
>100 ESA (/ROD:0)

Why ElectroStatic Armour ? It is completely ineffective against lasers,
PAWs and Meson Guns ... all of which tend to be what is shooting at you in
space.

>6 Sandcasters ( /AV:10 /Cans:10)
>10 Damper Turrets (2MW /Rng:3,000km)

3000 km is *well* under the 15 000 km range of a nuke det laser missile.

I'm not sure 6 sandcasters is enough, either.

>0 Damper Screen
>20 Meson Screen (0.64MW)

This is a *very* weak meson screen. Either put in one that will stop a
spinal mount meson gun, or save the mass, space and surface area and rely
on being somewhere else when the pions arrive.

>0 Force Field
>0 Gravtics
>30 [120] Armor, 40 Structure

I take it thats factor 120 armour (eg 6 cm of superdense) ?

>
>Weaponry
>9xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 50,000km (/Ar: 0 [20]))
>12xHeavy Laser Turret (+4) 1/0-0-0-0 [2,50/9-5-2-1] (LR)
> 4xHeavy Laser Bay (+4) 1/6-6-6-6 [4,50/61-61-61-56] (LR)

I dont like the acute lack of non-missile, non-laser armament on a 10 000
ton ship. Sure you couldnt shoehorn in a 60m long meson gun ? It wouldnt
have to be that high in output - just enough to keep the other side honest.

What is the range, megajoulage and RoF on the lasers ? It's important for
translating to, say, Bruce's Revised Space Combat System.

>
>4xMissile Bay Auto 4/4 ( /Mag:76 /MFD:500,000km)
>w/84 Command DetLaser1d6/2 6.0G12 1000AU
>
>Features
> 90xAirlock

Thats a lot of airlocks, especially for the crew size.

> 2xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)
> 1xSickbay (8std ea.)
> 1xArmory (3.57std ea.)
>10xDecontamination Airlock
>2xMachine Shop (10std ea.)
>2xShip's locker (5.00std ea.)
>3xGym (2.5std ea.)
>4xFull Galley (Cap:100)
>4xPrisoner Capacity (2/1/1)
>1xbreifing room(60.00std ea.)

I'd replace one of the engineering shops with another sickbay myself. The
debriefing room is a nice touch, but I'd do what I could to get some more
sickbay rooms. Getting hit by PAWs or Meson Guns would tend to leave a lot
of crew with radiation sickness, even when the ship survives.

>
>Small Craft
>
>12xMinHgr (15std, 12 hatches)
>4xMinHgr (50std, 4 hatches)
> 1xSpacHgr (70std, 0 hatches)
> 50xJetBay (6std)

If you are looking for a 15 dton fighter, you really cant go past Svensson
Small Craft - best known for their excellent lifeboats, the Wasp class
Light Fighter is completing it's test flights even as we write.

And let me guess ... the 50t small craft are Marine Landing Craft ?

>
>Backups
> Screens: 1xESA generator (/AV:100). 1xMeson Screen (/PV:20).
> Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km). 1xLaser (50,000km).
> Sensors: 1xPas. Scanner (14 [50mkm]). 1xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm]). 1xLIDAR (15.5
>[5mkm]).
>
>
>Crew Details
> 6xMnvr. 113xEngr. 6xMain. 26xGunn. 14xScrn. 26xFlgt. 60xTrps. 41xCmnd.
>9xStew. 3xMed.


It strikes me as being a very big frigate - pure laser/missile armament but
high gees - rather than a cruiser-type ship, but an interesting design.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 03:23:36 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: English? (was Justice...sort of...at last...)

Semo wrote:


>And, yeah, its poor English I guess, but where would we be if language
never
>changed?

Dost thou not know?  Forsoothe, wouldest thou care to know?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:48:51 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

Question for anyone who uses TRTOOLS (both of you):

Would anyone be interested in a Win3.X version of TRTOOLS....or do you
prefer to run the utilities from the DOS command line?  (I'm thinking about
reinstalling Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5 and having a shot at porting
it...but if there's no demand I won't worry).

Seeya,

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

"if it's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess..."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:07:47 +0000
From: ASlack@synetics.co.uk
Subject: Impending LOS

Andy Slack@SYNETICS UK
02/05/98 10:07 AM

"Coming up on E2, sir."

Fellow TMLers, I'm leaving my current employer, and as they provide my
email address I'll be out of contact for a while.   I'll be back on the
list as soon as I get access again, hopefully no more than a few weeks'
hence (say early March). Thanks for livening up my lunchtimes in the
office. Keep the flame!

"I've got E3, sir."

Jump!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 12:32:15 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

Robert N Harris wrote:

> Unfortunately, Frank Herbert is dead.
> He had been writing more in his Dune series and died after the 6th(I
> think novel). There was obviously to have been another.
Oh, this is new to me...when did he die?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 12:36:24 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Chairdogs

> "(1920-1986) US writer born in Tacoma, Washington, and educated at the
> University of Washington, Seattle. FH worked as a reporter and editor on a
> number of West Coast newspapers before becoming a full-time writer. He lived
> in Washington State."
Why do those fabulous writers always have to die before they finish
their great epics (Tolkien did it, Herbert did it)? At least Clake
finished his 2001 series!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 12:49:26 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

> Would anyone be interested in a Win3.X version of TRTOOLS....or do you
> prefer to run the utilities from the DOS command line?  (I'm thinking about
> reinstalling Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5 and having a shot at porting
> it...but if there's no demand I won't worry).
I would like it, as i find it tiresome always going down to the
dos-editor to use the software. A win Version would be excellent indeed!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:11:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Broccoli (Word for 'eating intelligent beings')

In mail you write:

> I like your ending; -phage is one that eats, and -phagia is eating of a
> specified substance or in a specified manner (according to the American
> Heritage Dictionary btw).
>
> So probably Xenophagia is eating of and a Xenophage is one who eats aliens.
>
> This does not, as you point out, convey the desire to eat intelligent
> beings.  I can see a (human) cult around eating intelligent beings in the
> belief that this makes the eater intelligent (I won't get into the
> possibility that, for some alien species, this may be true).

Actually, you don't have to get *nearly* that convoluted. The known
instances of cannibalism as a feature of a *culture* all invlove
warriors eating the slain enemy or portions of them. And the usual
logic is either that you are honoring them, or that by eating them you
are incorporating their bravery or some other desirable characteristic.

So by that model, a culture that went thru that stage and then got
re-contacted might retain it. Which could lead to problems for players.

"I suppose they're mad at us because of those guys that got killed in
the bar fight?"

"No, they're a warrior culture. Dying in a fight is accepted. It's just
that you haven't made arrangements to eat the bodies yet..."

:-)

> How about "Sophophagia" and "Sophophage", or "Sapiphagia" and "Sapiphage".
>
> I think the latter is easier to say.  A cursory search found no other
> prefix roots that are readily applicable.  Suggestions welcomed.
>
> Now, "homo-" means "same", and, to my suprise, "homophagia" or its related
> words are not listed in the dictionary.  This could be the act of eating
> one's own race (the word cannibal is based on the name of a tribe in the
> Pacific Islands and has ritualistic implications, rather than casual
> consuption).

The technical term for cannibalism is "anthrophagia" or something like
that.

> Incidentially, I would take the view that there are races who (like humans)
> would be deeply offended and go to war over eating members of their race,
> and others that would not care a bit, even to the point of not objecting to
> killing of other members of the race (as long as they, themselves are left
> alone) to do so.  "After all, their raised in captivity just for this
> purpose."

And themn, as above, there are races who'd be offended if you *didn't*
eat people. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:00:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sophonophagism

In mail you write:

> IIRC the Andes plane crash case, where survivors ate the bodies of the
> dead, no charges were pressed. In fact I recall seeing a Catholic priest
> interviewed on TV about this who said that in his interpretation of
> doctrine, the survivors actually had a duty to do this, as otherwise they
> would have been allowing themselves to die when a means of survival existed
> - this would have been tantamount to suicide and therefore a sin. So eating
> sophonts is much less likely to be a crime than killing them especially for
> the purpose.

As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that there's a court ruling from
the 19th century that establishes that it is *not* a crime to eat human
flesh in an emergency as long as the person(s) being eaten died of
natural causes. 

It's only a crime if you killed them (and probably if you did something
that allowed them to die when you could have kept them alive). 

Given this, I suspect that something like "The Church of All Worlds"
could even win a case for serving the deceased at the wake.

> Don't vegetarian Tibetans have a religious clause that says it's OK to eat
> meat if the animal died by accident?

I don't know for sure. But as I recall, Jewish rabbincal law has a
clause that allows for violating the dietary rules for emergencies.
That is, if all there is to eat is pork, and it's not your fault, you
can eat it.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that Islamic law has a similar rule.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 22:24:30
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Heplar

I want to speak against the requirement for Helpar engines to be attached
to a hot fusion engine.

Essentially, it puts the minimum cost of a space vehicle at 2 megacredits
at TL12, as this is the minimum costs of fusion plants at these tech levels.

At TL11, thruster plates - at minimum sticker cost of MCr 2.5 per set - is
the poor man's option, because the smallest fusion power plant costs MCr 20.

At TL10, the smallest power plant that can have a Heplar maneuver drive
tacked onto it is 1000 megawatts, costing MCr 100.

Now, when I say space vehicles, I am including missiles.

This is silly. If you can have a plasma gun at TL10, you can have a plasma
gun pointing aft to provide thrust with it's recoil. At it's simplest,
thats what Heplar seems to be.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 06:53:27 +0000
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@m9.sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: From The Archives (Was Imperium Map Question)

Hey.. that is soo cool...

Where would I send this pittance for such a treasure?

:)

Cya

> I'm getting more interest in this than I thought, so I have gone to the
> archives and this is what I can put in a package---
> 
> Imperium Map
> Spinward Marches Map
> Special Supplement 2- Exotic Atmospheres
> GDW / DGP Joint Poster (full color)
> Aliens For Traveller (original 8 page piece)
> 
> This will all fit in a US Post Office Priority Mail Envelope... It needs a $3
> stamp.
> 
> Send me a $3 stamp and your mailing address and I'll send this off to you.
> 
> Limited supply.
> 
> Marc Miller
> 
************************************************************************
tsykoduk@bigfoot.com                    http://www.bigfoot.com/~tsykoduk

Thought for the day:
    Bagpipes (n): an octopus wearing a kilt.

************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #101
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 102



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jump drives and jump torpedoes
Re: Chairdogs
Re: chair dogs
Re: Heplar
Re: Personal Data Transmission (was Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation)
Re: Broccoli (Word for 'eating intelligent beings')
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
The TL C Orrimot-class Logistics ship
Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS
Re: English?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:13:34 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Jump drives and jump torpedoes

David P. Summers writes:
>Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:45:38 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
>>Check the rules for black globes and for breaking off combat. It specifies
>>how much of a jump drive is capacitors, how much extra capacitors cost, and
>>how many energy points a ton of capacitor can hold. It's CT all right.
>
>I will.  I'll get back to you on that.  However, even if true, it doesn't
>prove that the problem simply isn't that capacitors aren't big enough
>to hold all the energy involved.

It most certainly is a big part of the problem that the capacitors aren't big
enough to hold all the energy involved. What more do you require to admit
that a discrepancy exists? If magic capacitors that can hold only a modest
amount of energy in one situation and a humongous amount in another isn't a
swift kick in the old willing suspension of disbelief, what is? Furthermore,
you don't solve the problem by upping the capacity of the capacitors, because
than you introduce a TL 9 capacitor that is vastly superior to any other kind
of capacitor ever mentioned in Traveller.

>>Yes it does. Check it yourself. If your capacitors are fully charged by
>>black globe absorbtion you can jump, _provided_ you have the required
>>fuel.
>
>Yes, and there is nothing in that sentence that says that the
>fuel isn't used for energy (in fact that is the common meaning of
>the term fuel). So that fuel is required after the _capacitors_
>but not after the energy (since that is what all the fuel is for).

I think you are trying to disprove something that I'm not trying to claim.
I'm not saying anything one way or the other about what the original
intention of the authors were. In fact, I'd be inclined to guess that they
did think of the jump fuel as being burned for fuel. Otherwise they would
have said so. What I'm saying is that if that is the case, then whatever
energy the jump drive provides is in addition to the energy used to fill
the jump capacitors.

>Now you can read alternative explanations into what they really meant by
>"fuel" and why you needed some after the capacitors, but I don't see this
>as being anything close to saying anything about need hydrogen for non-energy
>purposes.

I'm not trying to read an alternative explanation into it. I'm trying to
change the explanation. I happen to believe that the orginial explanation
have implications that requires really, really big handwaves to swallow.
I'm proposing a simple, neat, and economical handwave that leaves the jump
drive have exactly the same _effect_ as it always have had, but neatly
resolve the discrepancies.

>I hardly see this as standing alone as showing a non-energy use for fuel,
>let alone against how one would inuitively see a lanthanum grid working, 
>things in the story line about jump space intrudes when the field starts
>to collapse, etc.  (including things I mentioned in previous post but
>forgot, I haven't made a list....)

Only problem with that is that whatever the jump fuel is used for it is
something that happens in addition to filling the jump capacitors (since
that is done by the power plant (or the black globe)) and before the ship
enters jumpspace (since all the jump fuel can be in drop tanks that
separates from the ship after the jump fuel has been used but before the
ship jumps).

>>Except that in a normal jump you can't get any more energy out of the
>>jump fuel after the jump starts because all the fuel is used up before
>>the jump starts as evidenced by the rules for drop tanks.
>
>This is actually reading way too much in.  Do you really think that
>the when they introduced drop tanks they back checked them with
>Black Globes?

Excuse me, am I misremembering, or weren't you the one who accused me of
picking and chosing the parts of canon I liked and ignoring the parts
that I don't like (Which is absolutely true, only I like to believe that
I only pick and chose when the parts don't agree with each other or with
common sense)? Aren't you doing exactly the same thing yourself here? You
can easily make me believe that "they" didn't back check, but what does
that have to do with the price of fish? The fact is that drop tanks and
black globes and breaking away from combat works according to different
rules and if the rules result in a contradiction then, IMO, it is better
and more in the spirit of the original to resolve the contradiction than
to try to ignore it.

>And don't drop tank description specifically mention the use of capacitors
>to store the energy and then starting to jump _after_ they have been blown
>away?

The TNS release certainly do. I can't find it in the rules. This is what is
technically known as a discrepancy. Two bits of canon which CANNOT both be
true. What's your point? That the bit that you prefer is superior to the bit
I prefer?

Actually, if the idea that the jump fuel isn't used as fuel at all is adopted,
the TNS release could easily be dismissed as a reporter talking through his
hat. Whenever I see news items about things that I know about there's usually
an average of about three major mistakes (Makes me wonder a lot about the
stuff I don't have firsthand knowledge about).

>And don't they give absolutely not mention about blowing hydrogen into jump
>space, or doing anything to start a jump, before they are blown away?

Absolutely none. But it does talk of converting the huge amount of hydrogen
to energy and storing the energy in the capacitors. Which is one of the bits
some people finds a tad unbelievable in itself. When combined with a rule
that makes the amount needed so small that the regular power plant can supply
it on its own in less than 40 minutes and with only a fraction of the fuel,
it becomes more than a tad unbelivable.

>[Regarding storing fuel as hydrogen...]

You mean water, right?

>What are "plenty good for other application"?  The purifiers?  If so, the
>answer is that you need to be able to store the hydrogen after you 
>purify it anyway (since the purifier isn't fast enought to convert water
>on the fly).

A power plant with a rating of 1 for a 1000 T ship requires 10 T of hydrogen
in 4 weeks. A 5 T TL 15 fuel purifier can process 333 T in, what is it, 8
hours? (I can't find the exact time anywhere). Anyway, for any ship larger
than about a 1000 T (for TL 15; larger for lower TLs) the saving in volume by
carrying the hydrogen as water and processing it on the fly would easily
outweigh the volume taken up by the puel purifier. Assuming that you wouldn't
have the purifier anyway, in which case the saving applies to even the smallest
ship.

>>Anyway, that was a side track. What I started to say was that jump
>>capacitors are canon and when you advocate dropping them you are
>>violating the spirit of the original.
>
>I would say that making fuel into "jump space ballast" is harder
>on canon.

It leaves the jump drive functioning exactly as described and it resolves a
discrepancy in the rules at the expense of claiming that a TNS reporter
didn't know what he was talking about. What's so hard on canon about that?

>You can alway just keep the capacitors and remain
>similarly vague about what they store (perhaps their primary
>purpose is to store energy to keep the jump field up during 
>transit and the black globe use is simply a sidelight).

Of course the black globe use is a sidelight. So what? The main point is
that if the jump drive capacitors can be used to store energy at all, it
should be a lot more than stated.
 
>The question is, which "theory" requires the reader to accept the least
>handwaving to remain consistent with canon.  As I have said, I believe
>taking a whole new "theory" of jump drive and handwaving it to fit into
>a set of parameters based on another theory can't help but be more of a
>handwave.

But that wasn't what I did. Instead I took a set of parameters and developed
a handwave that fitted all the parameters (something the original handwave
didn't).

>>We don't believe it could work the way it is described in CT
>
>Well, I don't agree that it couldn't work.

Right. In that case please reconcile these two facts:

1) The jump drive converts the fuel into energy and stores it in the jump
   capacitors.

2) The power plant fills the jump capacitors from its regular output in less
   than 40 minutes.

(I'd also ask you to explain why, once the capacitors are filled, additional
fuel is still needed for some purpose which must be accomplished before the
ship enters jumpspace, but since you claim that this bit of canon is
inferior to other bits of canon, I'll let that one go for the moment.)

>Again, rather than trying to cludge a whole new theory
>of jump drive into existing canon, I took the "Keep it Simple Stupid"
>approach of  making a simple, inuitive change. 

I've obviously missed something here. What simple, intuitive change? I
thought you were perfectly satisfied with the way things were? 

>>As far as I am concerned we are trying to uphold the original
>>spirit by fixing a crack in the game universe. 
>
>So am I.  I just happen to think you uphold the orignal spirit by only
>changing what needs to be changed, rather than replacing wholesale.

Well, if you have a change that will fix the crack without having to
introduce 'access mass', then that will obviously be preferrable. Provided
it does, indeed, fix it and provided that it dosen't introduce more
cracks elsewhere. Trot it out.

>The use of a shared powerplant in CT, the use of a lanthanum grid as
>the central effect, the fact that _is_ called  "fuel", the fact the
>jumpspace sickness is caused by a collapse of a field, the fact that
>there is a mention of an signature of energy being returned out of
>jump space (when the ship returns) but there is no mention of any mass
>returning, the use of capacitors including being able to jump, in one
>adventure, on solar power alone, the fact that at least a portion of
>the hydrogen is used as fuel (and there is never any mention of how it
>is used in any other way and there is never any distiction at all
>between the protion used for hydrogen and the portion used for mass), etc.

None of this, with two exceptions, cannot be accomodated by a theory that
expends a majority of the jump fuel for a purpose, other than converting it
to energy, which cannot be more efficiently performed by alternate methods
(like using it for coolant, for which a number of things would be better). 
The first thing is the jump on solar power alone, which, if true, implies
that the jump can be performed with just an ordinary power plant (the amount
of solar energy a ship like the Annic Nova can collect in six weeks can't be
all that much, can it?), so why would anyone bother about jump fuel in the
first place? (BTW. The capacitors on the Annic Nova must also be of a very
non-standard type, because they can store energy for jump over a six week
period whereas standard capacitors must do it in 40 minutes or less).
The other thing is the lack of any mention of differentiation in what the
fuel is used for, and that is just something you have to accept when you
make such a change.

[About jump torpedoes]

>>Jump torpedoes are possible without disrupting canon history if you assume
>>that they cost something around that of an equivalent jump drive and have
>>a 1 chance in 36 of failing that manned ships don't have.
>
>This is something that not everyone agrees on and was the subject of an
>extensive discussion a while back.  While Hans was adamant that this
>assertion was true, there were other (myself included) who felt equally
>sure it wasn't.

Sorry. You're absolutely right. Let me rephrase that. If you assume that
jump torpedoes are very expensive (on the order of an equivalent jump drive
plus a bit more) and there is a small loss rate that does not apply to
manned ships (3% will do), then an X-boat network will demonstrably be
cheaper than an X-torp network. There may be other reasons why you don't
believe that X-torps are possible, but I don't know of any, though other
people think differently. Anybody interested should consult the archives
for an exhaustive (and I use the word deliberately) discussion of these
matters. They are also summed up in the FAQ, but you lose a lot of the
nuances ;-).

[Back to the jump drives]

>>>Check the rules for black globes and for breaking off combat. It specifies
>>>how much of a jump drive is capacitors, how much extra capacitors cost, and
>>>how many energy points a ton of capacitor can hold. It's CT all right.
>
>I did check this out, and it does say what Hans claims (and my proviso
>applies). Interesting is what it also says [...]. Under fuel it states that
>"A ship requires fuel for its jump drive and for its power plant; the power
>plant converts fuel to energy for computers, jump drives, maneuver drives,
>weapons, and screens." 

Really? What page? I can't find it in my copy of "High Guard". Perhaps we have
different editions.

>The fact that the author stops to delineate what fuel is used for and fails
>to mention it being used for anything other than energy, to me is telling.

You're beating a dead horse. I have no doubt that the authors didn't intend the
jump drive to use most of the jump fuel for "access space" or anything else
exotic. If they did, they would have said so. But what is telling for me is
that they did introduce various rules that contradict each other unless one
assumes that most of the jump fuel is used for other purposes and, furthermore,
that said purposes couldn't be more efficiently accomplished by alternate
means.

So you either have to change one or more of the rules and keep the handwave or
change the handwave and keep all the rules. If you really think that changing
the rules is preferrable to changing the handwave, then so be it. But don't
claim that you can keep both the rules and the handwave, because it just
isn't so.

>>>And don't drop tank description specifically mention
>>>the use of capacitors to store the energy and then starting to
>>>jump _after_ they have been blown away?
>
>Well, in fact the description of drop tanks in CT is no
>help either way.  I must be remembering a later description
>of drop tanks (though I am sure that some mention of this
>sort exists).

You're remembering the TNS release and you're 100% correct. It does say so.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:21:03 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Chairdogs

>Why do those fabulous writers always have to die before they finish
>their great epics (Tolkien did it, Herbert did it)? At least Clake
>finished his 2001 series!

It's pretty obvious to me that Herbert originally intended Children of Dune
to be the last in his trilogy. The reason they die before they finish them
is sort of like saying "Curious how people tend to die just before they are
going to breath their last breath"


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:21:58 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: chair dogs

>Oh, this is new to me...when did he die?

Soon after the Dune movie was done but I'm shure that was just a coincidence ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:24:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Heplar

>I want to speak against the requirement for Helpar engines to be attached
>to a hot fusion engine.
>
>Essentially, it puts the minimum cost of a space vehicle at 2 megacredits
>at TL12, as this is the minimum costs of fusion plants at these tech levels.
>
>At TL11, thruster plates - at minimum sticker cost of MCr 2.5 per set - is
>the poor man's option, because the smallest fusion power plant costs MCr 20.
>
>At TL10, the smallest power plant that can have a Heplar maneuver drive
>tacked onto it is 1000 megawatts, costing MCr 100.
>
>Now, when I say space vehicles, I am including missiles.
>
>This is silly. If you can have a plasma gun at TL10, you can have a plasma
>gun pointing aft to provide thrust with it's recoil. At it's simplest,
>thats what Heplar seems to be.
>
>Ian Whitchurch

Due to the fact that they're nothing like plasmaguns, they're plasmaguns
with an efficiency coefficient way beyound 100%. If you want cheap
spacevehicles, put a fusion drive on them.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:58:24 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Personal Data Transmission (was Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation)

Lost track of who said what, but _somebody_ said

> I envision a spacers ring that automatically deluges the collected 
> data on the most recent jumps to all other spacer's rings while 
> getting the data they have.  Then when the captain, pilot, 

It doesn't have to be a ring.  Put it in your shoe or belt and use
your body for the data transmission.  Been done at the MIT Media Lab
already.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:09:22 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Broccoli (Word for 'eating intelligent beings')

Peter Brenton wrote:

>How about "Sophophagia" and "Sophophage", or "Sapiphagia" and "Sapiphage".
>
>I think the latter is easier to say.  A cursory search found no other
>prefix roots that are readily applicable.  Suggestions welcomed.

<gag> "sapiphagia" combines a Latin partial root with a Greek stem.
Horribile dictu!  I must protest.  Sophontophagia or sapientivore, please.

Y'all have heard about how back in the '30s (IIRC), Harvard refused to
establish a department of "sociology", because the word mixes different
languages?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 08:34:07 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

Michael Bailey wrote:
> 
> Question for anyone who uses TRTOOLS (both of you):
> 
> Would anyone be interested in a Win3.X version of TRTOOLS....or do you
> prefer to run the utilities from the DOS command line?  (I'm thinking about
> reinstalling Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5 and having a shot at porting
> it...but if there's no demand I won't worry).
> 
> Seeya,
> 
> Michael Bailey
> mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
> 
> "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess..."
What did TRTOOLS include again, and where was it to be found. I may be
interested in acguiring same.
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 12:42:07 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: The TL C Orrimot-class Logistics ship

[I had to dig through the mpgn ftp site, but I fount it!]

Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 13:35:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TL C Orrimot-class Logistics ship
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.951208124516.5234D-100000@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca>


Every starfleet needs a vast number of these unglamourous ships - although 
you never seem to see them in "Imperial Stars", "Strike Fleet", or any of the 
other popular VR entertainment programs in the Imperium.  Never mind 
that: without thousands and thousands of glorified cargo barges like these, 
the Imperial Navy would swiftly grind to a halt. 

First built in 138, these flying bricks perfectly reflect the big, bulky 
and dour design philosophy of the Vilani.  They also happen to be quite 
capable in their work: after all, 1000 years later they still serve in 
innumerable frontier fleets, as tankers and second-tier naval logstics 
vessels.
  
(In a pinch they can support Marine contigments, but lack the
armour to serve in any more hostile environment than your typical 
bushfire rebellion.  They also lack sufficent on-board cargo shuttles, 
and the Marines get to sleep in the cargo hold - hopefully modified to 
house them, rather than sleeping on the bare floor. 

The Orrimot DOES at least have CG lifters, unlike most dedicated space 
tankers/freighters.  So it can lift off, as well as land...)

These ships are rarely seen in civilian service: the two large hamster cages 
used to mimic gravity is rather unpopular among merchants, and civilian 
fuel stations have rendered tanker jumpships a poor economic gamble.  
Also, most merchants find the additional cost to maintain the inefficent 
dual fusion plants not worth the greater safety margin.  And the 10 
lifeboats are SO passe, and an unnecessary expense - although the crews 
doesn't seem to mind.

TL C Orrimot-class Logistics Starship

Disp              2500    Hull Armour 10
Len               107m    Volume  35,000
Price     MCr  756.483    Target       M
Config         Slab SL    TL           C
Mass     26,564/15,929

Power plant  2 * 1250 Mw fusion (89 Mw/hit), 1 yr duration (174 Mw surplus)
Jump         3 (2333 kl fuel per parsec, 7000 kl total)  
G-rating     1 (2000 Mw/g), CG lifters
G-turns      30.1 (51.2 w/jfuel, 77.5 w/jfuel, cargo fuel) 332.2 kl of 
             fuel each G-turn
Maintenance  1258

Computer   3 * st TL C (.4 Mw)
Commo      1000 AU MAser (.6 Mw), 1000 AU Laser (.3 Mw), 30,000 Radio (1 Mw)
Avionics   TL A+
Sensors    P-EMS (30,000, .3 Mw), A-EMS (3,000 km, 8 Mw)
Controls   Bridge w/11 wstations, Engineering * 29

Armarment  5 * 120 Mj laser turrent (4: 1/9-27, 8:1/9-27, 16:1/6-9, 32:1/3-9)
           (Loc: 10 Arc: all 3.3 Mw, 1 Crew ea.)
           5 * sandcasters (Loc:11 Arc:All 1 Mw, 1 Crew ea. 30 Cann., 1D10*5)

Extended Life Support (4 Mw, [rounded])
Crew  53
             Engineer. 29  Man. 2, Elect. 2, Maint. 3, Gunnery 10, Command 7
Accomo       Sm. stateroom * 30
Facilities   2 hamster cages (600 kl each)
Airlocks     25
Cargo        8,728 kl.  (Usually used for fuel). Two fuel bladders: each 
             holds 8720 kl.  Folded, each takes up 436 kl. One's backup.

Sm Craft     10 docking rings, each with a 5-ton liferaft

Combat move 153/6
Travel move 3300/240


Surface Area
1       1-5   Radio Ant
          6  1 Maser Ant
             2 Laser   
             3-4 A-EMS
             5   P-EMS

Damage Area

1-5 Hold (Cargo or fuel)
6-7 Hold (Fuel)
8-9  1-4  Hold (Fuel)
     5-8  Hold (Liferaft)
     9-12 Hold (Cargo/Fuel, fuel bladder 1)
    13-16 Hold (Cargo/Fuel, fuel bladder 2)
    17-20 Hold (Fuel)

10-11  1-2  Wpns (10: Laser, 11: Sandcaster)
       3-14 Eng (fuel purifier)
      15-18 Eng (CG lifter)
      19-20 Hold (Fuel)
12-15 Hold (Fuel)
16-17  1-3 Elect
       4-8 Quarters
      9-20 Hold (Fuel)
18-19  1-7 Eng (power plant #1 in 18, #2 in 19)
      8-20 Eng (jump drive)
20     1-2 Eng (HEPlaR)
      3-20 Hold (Fuel)

System Damage

Elect
  Maser, Laser, Radio, A-EMS P-EMS      (1h) ant (1h)
Hold
  Cargo 88H (if loaded with cargo, rather than fuel)
Quarters
  Sm. Stateroom * 30       (2h) ea. 
  Life Support              15H
  Emergency L.S.             7H
Engineering    
  Jump Drive                35H ea.
  Power Plant * 2            7H
  HEPlaR                     2H
  ContraGrav                 8H
  Fuel Processing           38H
Weapons
  Laser * 5                  1H ea.
  Sandcasters * 5            1H ea.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it.  
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:44:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)

At 03:02 AM 2/5/98 EST, you wrote:

>I'm sure in a couple thousand years they'll be using slang that we haven't
>even dreamed of yet...  Geez, look how much slang has actually changed in
just
>60 years in the U.S. and in Britain!  :)
>
>"This Trader is PHAT, yo!  Jump Three?  That Drive is off the hook!  Yo, I'm
>all _about_ engineering..."
>
>or
>
>"This Trade Ship is the _limit_!  Jump Three?  Isn't that just the
bees-knees?
>When it comes to engineering, I'm on the trolley!"

or

"Dude!  This bus Rocks like Jerry on a hot night!  Jump Three?  I'm
tripping.  Engineering?  That's my space on the wheel!"

Funny thing happened at work's Christmas party.  Another driver and I
discovered we had both served as infantry in the US Army, and started
comparing notes.  Within minutes, we were speaking Armyese, complete with
borrowed German, Spanish, Korean, and vietnamese words and phrases.  On the
way home, Kirsten complained that no one could understand a thing we had
said to each other!

Makes you wonder what lingustic short-cuts the Imperial Navy and Marines
will develop.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:51:47 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

At 05:48 PM 2/5/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Question for anyone who uses TRTOOLS (both of you):
>
>Would anyone be interested in a Win3.X version of TRTOOLS....or do you
>prefer to run the utilities from the DOS command line?  (I'm thinking about
>reinstalling Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5 and having a shot at porting
>it...but if there's no demand I won't worry).

I'd really like to see that, since Kirsten is getting tired of me whining
every time I try to use TRTOOLS under DOS.  :)
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:46:45 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

At 03:08 AM 2/5/98 EST, you wrote:
>>So *that* is where it came from. I've seen it around, but just put it
>>down to the typical poor English all too many kids have these days. 
>>
>>Gee, I wonder which shows use *that* atrocity?
>
>Nah...  Probably didn't originate with TV or movies.  Stuff that's in as
>common usage as that phrase tends to pick up on their own...

The phrase "my bad", was popularized by rap artist/actor Will Smith (aka
"The Fresh Prince).  He used it on several songs, and it was a catch phrase
on his TV series "The Fresh Prince of Bel Air."

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:58:12 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS

>From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>

>
>
>Potential Spoilers Follow:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
><<Annic Nova>>
>You are right about the use of solar collecters.  Travel in system was 
>by means of push from a boat giving .1g.  We used this derelict for 
some 
>time before we could afford something a little more predictable. IIRC, 
>you had to roll a number of dice (?d) to determine the number of days 
or 
>weeks required to collect enough energy....
>
>I don't remember, but where did it store the energy?  Was it alien 
>technology?
>

I believe the energy was stored in a battery array.  (How is it that I 
can speak in past tense about something that is suppose to happen in the 
future.  Should I have said 'the energy will be stored'?)

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:48:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: English?

Richard A. Flores writes:

>>And, yeah, its poor English I guess, but where would we be if language
>>never changed?
>
>Dost thou not know?  Forsoothe, wouldest thou care to know?

   Oh it's worse than that:

Hwt! We Gardena         in geardagum, 
     eodcyninga,         rym gefrunon, 
     hu a elingas         ellen fremedon. 
     Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaena reatum, 
5 monegum mgum,         meodosetla ofteah, 
     egsode eorlas.         Syan rest wear 
     feasceaft funden,         he s frofre gebad, 
     weox under wolcnum,         weormyndum ah, 
     ot him ghwylc         ara ymbsittendra 
10 ofer hronrade         hyran scolde, 
     gomban gyldan.         t ws god cyning! 
     m eafera ws         fter cenned, 
     geong in geardum,         one god sende 
     folce to frofre;         fyrenearfe ongeat 
15 e hie r drugon         aldorlease 
     lange hwile.         Him s liffrea, 
     wuldres wealdend,         woroldare forgeaf; 
     Beowulf ws breme         (bld wide sprang), 
     Scyldes eafera         Scedelandum in. 
20 Swa sceal geong guma         gode gewyrcean, 
     fromum feohgiftum         on fder bearme, 
     t hine on ylde         eft gewunigen 
     wilgesias,         onne wig cume, 
     leode gelsten;         lofddum sceal

   You may find the rest at:
http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/beo-ms.html

   An excellent Web site for "real" English can be found at:
http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/oe/old_english.html

Beo ge gesunde,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #102
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ic0@$ l0`0(sp0ЯA-"@u@Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 5 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 105



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

In space, no one can hear your accent...
RE: Sophonophagism
RE: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)
RE: Heplar
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: Sword class cruiser
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Impending LOS
Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS
Re: Campaigns
Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes
Re: Ordering T4 Products
Re: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...) (fwd)
Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes
RE: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...
Re: Jump Gates long (sorry)
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: chair dogs
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:04:19 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: In space, no one can hear your accent...

> From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
 
> ObTrav:  How much dialect do you, as GMs and players, use to differentiate
> races/ethnicities (is that the right word for people from different planets?
> nationalities?)?  The question reminds me of a '70s era translation of some

> suppose from our perspective the Vilani might have a British accent (pick
> whichever one you like), the Geonee a Cockney accent, the Zhodani a
> straight-out-of-"From Russia with Love" (or Boris&Natasha from Bullwinkle)
> accent or maybe Turkish...  (I have no thermometer reading about the
> Solomani, as I never played in or ran a game in the Sphere. ;-)  What should
> the Vegan's sound like?

I think that your questions are too broad astrographically.  Humans
develop whole languages relatively quickly when even small groups get
separated from other groups, and accents and regional dialects develop
still more quickly -- even with mass media to lend some measure of
consistency.  Rather than considering how people speak "behind the
claw", or in the Zhodani Consulate, we should probably be looking at how
people speak in the major cities of Regina versus the mines of Dinom
versus the outback of Emerald -- or even, how do Regina city-dwellers
sound compared to Regina miners and Regina farmers?  
Class (along with education) is another factor influencing accent.  The
head of the mining company and the city councillor both went to good
schools where they improved their high school Galanglic by broadening
their vocabularies and reaching certain standards of diction.  

Remember, on Earth today there are hundreds of separate, not mutually
understandable, languages, as well as many other languages that, while
separate, can be mutually understood.  (E.g., India uses English as a
common language in part because it has so many totally distinct
languages.)  Earth is probably a better template for Traveller languages
than it first appears.  The minor human races were seeded some 300,000
years ago, so their languages have had just as long to develop as
languages on Earth -- and their planets have had just as long and
complex political, military, religious, and social histories as Earth,
virtually guaranteeing the existence of many conflicting languages. 
Earth isn't as good a model for planets only recently colonized.  

This is a difficult problem in running NPCs in Traveller games.  My
players can't really distinguish my Menorbian nomad's accent from the
Regina street tough's.  

I haven't even addressed how non-human linguistics work.  My Vargr NPCs
sound a little like the dog Astro from The Jetsons.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:41:49 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Sophonophagism

Leonard:
> I don't know for sure. But as I recall, Jewish rabbincal law has a
> clause that allows for violating the dietary rules for emergencies.
> That is, if all there is to eat is pork, and it's not your fault, you
> can eat it.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to find that Islamic law has a similar rule.

Yes, we have rules much like that for nearly any sin in Islam (from choosing
edibles to self-defense while fasting), and I mean *nearly* any...  There
are some sins for which no such "hardship" permission is available and
you'll have to accept the consequences for your actions, as you choose, but
- -- this is not the forum.  There are, of course, a variety of
interpretations of fiqh -- but aren't there always?

ObTrav: Has anyone codified specifics about religions in their personal
milieu?  Are they available for our perusal?  Or is everyone else in the
future a heathen athiest?  ;-)  Just curious...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:47:45 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)

Semo:
> friends.  Our speech with each other is peppered with just a few too many
pop-
> culture references, in jokes, and bizarre phrases that have been picked up
> over the years...

Not "pop," please...  Star Wars, Monty Python, Aliens, et al I can handle.
;-)

See Heinlein for an excellent treatment of such speach patterns
(particularly _I will fear no evil_).

> >Makes you wonder what lingustic short-cuts the Imperial Navy and Marines
> >will develop.
> 
> I shudder to think of the scouts.  They probably have their own language
by
> now :^)

Or seven... but then again, what need would most scout teams have for
language (besides comminicating with the locals)?  Aren't they all part of
that fascist Imperial psionic conspiracy?  Or maybe they've just spent far
too many years trapped in the same 100-ton tin can with each other (or
alone!)...

It might be hard to decipher that they were even speaking in that
"combination of growls, howls, screaches and whistles,
wind-moaning-in-the-trees noises, and hand-waving" (did I miss any non-human
major races?).

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:56:44 -0800
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: RE: Heplar

> From:          "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
> Date:          Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:02:05 -0500
>
> I seem to recall (from Striker?) a notion that a piece of hardware 
> purchased at a tech level higher than minimum could be either smaller, 
> cheaper, more efficient or more reliable (or some combination) - but I 
> don't know that I saw actual rules for the idea.

Mercenary had prices dropping 5-15% per TL, and full price items at 
higher techs incorporating improvements.  I can't recall if Striker 
includes such a rule <hangs head in shame> (Striker book 3 is my most 
worn CT book).


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:57:48 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

Michael

A Win version would be an excellent addtion to this software.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
To: Traveller <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 4:58 AM
Subject: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions


>Question for anyone who uses TRTOOLS (both of you):
>
>Would anyone be interested in a Win3.X version of TRTOOLS....or do you
>prefer to run the utilities from the DOS command line?  (I'm thinking about
>reinstalling Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5 and having a shot at porting
>it...but if there's no demand I won't worry).
>
>Seeya,
>
>Michael Bailey
>mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
>
>"if it's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess..."
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:42:58 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Sword class cruiser

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 3:40 AM
Subject: re : Sword class cruiser


>
>Have you got enough helplar reaction mass to sleaze another jump-1 if
>neccessary ?
>
Not quite, unless you cross pump 2625 Cubic Meters or about 188 tons of fuel
from the fusion plant tanks, actually not a bad thought. It would simply
shorten your F-plant duration form 1 year, requireing more exact booking as
the only draw back I can see.
>
>Jump is adequate at Jump-2. Maneuver of 5.1 gees is excellent :)
>
Thank you. I like the HEPLaR as a back up/Afterburner type arrangement, for
relatively short duration high speed boosts, a back up for the thrusters,
and for outer system operations.
>
>I take it thats 1000 MW for 1 hour ?
>
1000 MW/hrs
>
>Why ElectroStatic Armour ? It is completely ineffective against lasers,
>PAWs and Meson Guns ... all of which tend to be what is shooting at you in
>space.
>

I liked the idea of a debris screen mentioned in relation to the Low Tech
Colony ship on another thread 8^>
>
>3000 km is *well* under the 15 000 km range of a nuke det laser missile.
>
Not being very familiar with ships above adventuring size  I fear that I
under rated this. If you have a suggested size please let me know.
>
>I'm not sure 6 sandcasters is enough, either.
>
This was an error on my part, I meant to increase them before "publishing"
this to the list and simply forgot. They will be increases
>
>>0 Damper Screen
>>20 Meson Screen (0.64MW)
>
>This is a *very* weak meson screen. Either put in one that will stop a
>spinal mount meson gun, or save the mass, space and surface area and rely
>on being somewhere else when the pions arrive.
>
Again, inexperience shows, suggested sizes welcome.

>
>I take it thats factor 120 armour (eg 6 cm of superdense) ?
>
Correct
>
>I dont like the acute lack of non-missile, non-laser armament on a 10 000
>ton ship. Sure you couldnt shoehorn in a 60m long meson gun ? It wouldnt
>have to be that high in output - just enough to keep the other side honest.
>
>What is the range, megajoulage and RoF on the lasers ? It's important for
>translating to, say, Bruce's Revised Space Combat System.
>
Leftover preferences from a by-gone day. This is the second "published" ship
since CT days and I tend to "think" in laser and missile terms, small
adventuring size craft thinking. I'll have to ponder on this a bit.

Here are the stats for the light laser turrets...
Weapon Design
Base TL 12
Focal Array Mount: 0 Turret
Focal Array Diameter: 2
Focal Array Length: 0.12
Focal Array Type: 0 Tunable
Discharge Energy: 120
Effective Range: 100000
Targeting Range: 1 Long (300,000km)
Focusing Type: 1 Grav focused
Crewstation present: 0 No
MFD Present: 1 Yes
Number of weapons: 1
Rate of fire: 50
Weapon Armor: 0
Buffer Space: 2 84m turret

The Large Lasers...
Base TL: 12
Focal Array Mount: 1 Bay
Focal Array Diameter: 9.4
Focal Array Length: 0.6
Focal Array Type: 0 Tunable
Discharge Energy: 600
Effective Range: 2209000
Targeting Range: 1 Long (300,000km)
Focusing Type :1 Grav focused
Crewstation present :1 Yes
MFD Present :1 Yes
Number of weapons: 4
Rate of fire: 50
Weapon Armor: 0
Buffer Space: 4 100std bay

>
>Thats a lot of airlocks, especially for the crew size.
>
Another mistake. the sheet recommended 100 (1 per Kton) I changed 10 to
deconn airlocks and meant to re adress the remainder but forgot.
>
>I'd replace one of the engineering shops with another sickbay myself. The
>debriefing room is a nice touch, but I'd do what I could to get some more
>sickbay rooms. Getting hit by PAWs or Meson Guns would tend to leave a lot
>of crew with radiation sickness, even when the ship survives.
>
Taken umder advisement

>
>If you are looking for a 15 dton fighter, you really cant go past Svensson
>Small Craft - best known for their excellent lifeboats, the Wasp class
>Light Fighter is completing it's test flights even as we write.
>
We await a copy of the specifications and the test flight results ;^)
>
>And let me guess ... the 50t small craft are Marine Landing Craft ?
>
Correct
>>
>>Crew Details
>> 6xMnvr. 113xEngr. 6xMain. 26xGunn. 14xScrn. 26xFlgt. 60xTrps. 41xCmnd.
>>9xStew. 3xMed.
>
>It strikes me as being a very big frigate - pure laser/missile armament but
>high gees - rather than a cruiser-type ship, but an interesting design.
>
Originally I classed it as a frigate, then waffled. perhaps I should change
it back...
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
Ian, thank you for you comments.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:46:03 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

>Shadow wrote:
>
>>> * Interesting insertions of modern US slang: somebody tell the editor
>that
>>> "My bad" [meaning 'my mistake' for those not familiar with it] may work
>for
>>> prime time sitcoms and Hollywood, it just doesn't evoke "Traveller" to
>me.
>
>You mean to tell me that actual English (well, American English) speaking
>people actually use that expression?  When I saw it in some of the posts on
>the TML, I assumed it was a misconstruction by one of our English as a
>second language people.  They can be expected to misconstruct our language,
>but home groan errors like that are (to me) unbelievable.  I suppose it's
>ebonics.

Well, if it's "My bag" this is referring to, I heard the expression a lot
in the Navy.  But then the USN isn't the best indication of any version of
English.

			Zane



| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:58:09 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Impending LOS

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> Andy,
> 
> Let me be the first to say hurry back.  We'll keep your seat warm.
>
I'll second that.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 17:59:49 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS

Paul Zumstein wrote:
> 
> >From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
> 
> >
> >Potential Spoilers Follow:
> >
> ><<Annic Nova>>
> >You are right about the use of solar collecters.  Travel in system was
> >by means of push from a boat giving .1g.  We used this derelict for
> some
> >time before we could afford something a little more predictable. IIRC,
> >you had to roll a number of dice (?d) to determine the number of days
> or
> >weeks required to collect enough energy....
> >
> >I don't remember, but where did it store the energy?  Was it alien
> >technology?
> >
> 
> I believe the energy was stored in a battery array.  (How is it that I
> can speak in past tense about something that is suppose to happen in the
> future.  Should I have said 'the energy will be stored'?)
> 
> PZ
> 
If memory serves me the power was stored in a power accumulator made up
of several silver bars connected to a power transfer cable to/through
the ceiling right under the astrogation dome.

Jim C

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:27:33 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: Campaigns

>In addition, I've always found it easier to run a game in a locale 
>I've
>invented myself rather then published ones.  Easier for me to imagine 
>the
>relationships between things and such when I create instead of read.
>
>Semo
>
I agree.  I created a sector just far enough from the Imperium and the
"canon" maps to be mysterious.  This sector has it's own political
climate, trade routes, and agendas.  The interaction with various "canon"
alien races and the Imperium creates interesting scenarios.

Diplomats trying to get the leaders of the sector to join them etc. 
Also, various counter groups within the sector with their own agendas as
well.  

Anyway my sector is "Spinward" a decent distance from the "Spinward
Marches".  (Left a few sectors) I've always found the Spinward Marches to
be the most interesting sector.  Therefore, to get anywhere within reason
of the "canon" map the ships from my sector have to enter through the
Marches.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 19:15:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes

>>It most certainly is a big part of the problem that the capacitors aren't big
>>enough to hold all the energy involved.
...
 ...never established that all the energy must be stored
>in capacitors for all the fuel to be used for energy or that there
>aren't both long term and short term capacitors (aka, those zuchani
>(sp?)
>crystals).

  It's reasonable to assume that the supposed zuchai crystal capacitors
are the only ones related to the Jump drive. Evidently their charging is
separate from the activation of the Jump drive; it may in fact be the
preliminary to using the J-drive. 

  The problem there is that the numbers in HG don't add up; the listed
charging period is not enough (by a factor of ten or so) to fill the HG 
designated capacitors. So, is that a glitch, or is the Jump drive an
internally-inconsistent super-fusion reactor that uses the majority of
the LHyd for coolant?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 20:20:35 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Ordering T4 Products

>>Another source I use for new games (at 30% off) is Titan Games.
>
>Are these folks online?  If so, could you supply an address?

That would be at:  www.titan-games.com

Hope this helps,

Niko

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 01:02 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...) (fwd)

Moin Richard A. Flores,

> Errr, isn't that supposed to be "humaniti"?  :-)

	no it should be humanimality, if I think in terms of geeneered
	dogs and apes from Terra.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:06:49 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes

>I just don't see it as neat or economical.  As you go through canon
>you keep encountering things you now need to reexplain, like why
>a lanthanum grid is necessary and central to jump drive, why it's
>called "fuel", why nobody ever sees a cloud of matter as you come
>out of jump space (but you do see energy),  why the mater in 
>use just happens to have to be hydrogen, and others I've mentioned
>but forgotten (maybe I should have made alist :-).  Now I agree
>this can be done (I never claimed the theory was impossible) but
>it leaves me with the feeling of a theory that arbitrarily fit
>into a set of unrelated contstraints (and that is inevitable because
>that is what was done).

Is it possible that some of the illogical, incorrect, not neat, or not
economically feasible problems in canon could be explained by the "funny
business" that we can find in our own time:

- -deals done for political reasons that make no sense but have long term
effects
- -Scientists who lie or skew research results to get a grant or forward an
agenda
- -Nepotism, some bigwigs no talent son-in-law is put in position of power
- -Under the table bribes of officials swaying choices or gaining licenses

Need I go on.

I'm not saying that the creators didn't legitimately make mistakes. 
However, these mistakes may add flavor to a campaign by using a
circumstance that could add intrigue to the game.

Just a thought.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:36:28 -0500
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <PeterB@Cyber-Wizard.Com>
Subject: RE: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

Michael,

Since I have converted over fully to Windoze NT another 16 bit version of
anything is almost useless to me.  Sorry...


> -----Original Message-----
> Would anyone be interested in a Win3.X version of TRTOOLS....or do you
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:01:08 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...

Glenn Goffin wrote
[lots of good stuff on realistic situations of language diversity, which
I'm going to snip after all]

I posted this to the TravLang list a few weeks ago; maybe it's pertinent
here for comparative purposes.  Read it and weep -- or exult, as suits your
taste.

>Ran across this tidbit while looking through old email files.  Makes you
>wonder why and how big civilizations like the Imperium, the Hierate, the
>Consulate etc. are able to maintain the degree of linguistic uniformity
>they are <G>.
>
>>Incidentally, for those who like such stats (I've been crunching the
>>database again, bear with me):
>>
>>Papua New Guinea is the country with the largest number of native
>>languages: 820 in total, representing 9 different families (3 of which
>>are native _only_ to PNG), 4 language isolates, 2 creoles and 1 pidgin.
>>
>>There are another 250 languages native to the Indonesia province of
>>Irian Jaya, the other part of New Guinea: 7 families (2 of which are
>>native _only_ to Irian Jaya), 3 language isolates and 7 languages as yet
>>unclassified.  This gives a grand total of 1,070 native languages in all
>>of New Guinea, by far the greatest number of languages spoken in one
>>geographically integrated region.
>>
>>Vanuatu is the country with the highest _density_ of different native
>>languages. The country has about 13,000 square kilometers and less than
>>200,000 people, but there are 109 languages there (all one family,
>>Austronesian, except for 1 creole).
>
>(Original post by Mark Line on the CONLANG mailing list)




- ------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                     Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                    kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:05:48 +0000
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@m9.sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Gates long (sorry)

I remeber this from some of my LBB's.. however they are in the loft, 
and I am very full of the best Chinese food ever created.. I doubt 
that I shall move for at least an hour. :)

> I'm using the 1977 version,  admittedly printed by Games Workshop in the UK
> but why would they change the page numbering? Does America have even pages
> on the right as well as cars?
> 
> Presumably for later versions try page 19. Or maybe the reference has been
> removed if what Andy Boulton says is true.
> 
> But I am not referring to Leviathan.
> 
> the entire quote in my version is
> 
> 
> top of page 18
> EXPENDABLES
> Certain materials for starship (and non-starship) operation are not
> considered to be routine operating expenses, but nevertheless involve
> occasional purchases on an irregular basis. These include ammunition and
> repair parts.
> Missiles: Missiles for missile launch racks are expended when they are
> fired; replacements must be obtained for reloading purposes when the
> situation warrants. Basically, a missile is of the homing type, costing
> about CR 5000 each. Such missiles are committed to a specific target when
> fired, and after launch, home towards that target until either the missile
> or the target is destroyed. Other types of missiles are possible (for
> example, jump capable message torpedoes, or bombs for attacks against
> 
************************************************************************
tsykoduk@bigfoot.com                    http://www.bigfoot.com/~tsykoduk

And the quantium ducks sayth unto you
Quark, Quark Quark

************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:05:48 +0000
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@m9.sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

Would not mind it :)

> >Question for anyone who uses TRTOOLS (both of you):
> >
> >Would anyone be interested in a Win3.X version of TRTOOLS....or do you
> >prefer to run the utilities from the DOS command line?  (I'm thinking about
> >reinstalling Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5 and having a shot at porting
> >it...but if there's no demand I won't worry).
> 
> I'd really like to see that, since Kirsten is getting tired of me whining
> every time I try to use TRTOOLS under DOS.  :)
> 
************************************************************************
tsykoduk@bigfoot.com                    http://www.bigfoot.com/~tsykoduk

Thought for the day:
    Bagpipes (n): an octopus wearing a kilt.

************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 19:54:11 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

> Soon after the Dune movie was done but I'm shure that was just a coincidence ;)
> 


I'd have died too, after I saw how they killed his story.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 19:58:12 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

> Windows Versions are always preferable... Most people who use PCs use Windows,
> and very few casual users drop down to DOS. Frankly, I am more comfortable
> than most in DOS, and I would prefer a Windows version.
> 
> Marc Miller


You and me both, Marc.  I installed 4DOS 6.55 under windows 95 because I
do most of my important file manipulation from DOS.  I know, i could use
Explorer (or in my case, Explorer+ that comes with Powerdesk), but I
just like DOS better.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #105
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 6 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 106



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: Campaigns
Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #105
Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes
Re: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #105
Re: Heplar
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: chair dogs
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #105
Re: What accents do you use...
101 Customs - Slang
Updated Web Site
Re: Justice...sort of...at last...
Re: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)
Re: Titanic - was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #95
Re: English?
Re: Campaigns
RE: LS Communications - (Was Re: Temporal Aspects of Jump Drive)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 20:00:53 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

> Boy am I glad I bought when I did.  I was having a little trouble
> understanding the problem, until I realized that many can't run DOS
> applications from Windows.
> 

I have yet to find any sort of program I can't run from Windows 95, with
some tinkering.  Yes, this counts clicking on icons that launch MS-DOS
mode first.  Some memorable toughies to run were Rennasaince's
Assembly-94 Demo and Future Crew's Unreal and Second Reality.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 22:45:00 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Campaigns

On 02/04/98 at 10:39 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> I'm curious about how many of you have your campaigns take place within
>> the existing worlds of Traveller and how many create your own sectors?

>> If you create your own, where do you place your sectors in relationship
>> to the existing sectors?

>I'd *like* to use my own sectors if I ever get time to game again, but the
>existing sectors make that kinda hard as the Imperium is pretty much
>surrounded.

Yeah, but only if *you* want it to be.  The problem with trying to adhere
to canon strictly is you constrain your freedom to create.  Take the parts
of the Imperium, and it's history that you want and leave out the rest.

It's very easy to create your own sectors, and as for placing
them...just do it.

That's my Heretic answer. Now my orthodox one...

If I wanted to keep as much of the orthodox Imperium as possible, but keep
an open frontier, I'd invalidate just the trailing-rimward end of the map. 


The K'Kree and Hivers aren't all that important to Imperial History, and
making them small pocket empires bottlenecking an open frontier to trailing
works for me.
                   .
                    . . . .    .
         Zhodani   .  Sword .   .    Vargr    .
                   .   Worlds . .   States   .
              . . . . . . . . .   . . . . . . 
       . . . . Spinward                     . . . .
                 Marches                    .      .
                                            . K'kree .
                  . .   Imperium   *        .         .
                      .     Core           .  . . . . .
        C        Aslan .                  . T         
        |              . . . . . .  . . . .  h       New
  S <--- ---> T        .          . Hivers .  e       Sectors
        |              . Solomani .         .   Gap    Placed
        R              .         . . . . . .            Here
                        . . . . .                 
  

Moving the K'kree coreward and leaving a gap between them and the Hivers
allows an opening out of the "trap" and frontier expansion to trailing. It
also puts the K'kree closer to the Vargr and that has interesting
possibilites. ;->  Place new sectors in "The Gap" and beyond.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 21:56:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes

Thu, 05 Feb 1998 19:15:43 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
> ...never established that all the energy must be stored
>>in capacitors for all the fuel to be used for energy or that there
>>aren't both long term and short term capacitors (aka, those zuchani
>>(sp?)
>>crystals).

>  It's reasonable to assume that the supposed zuchai crystal capacitors
>are the only ones related to the Jump drive.

Well, except that I don't think the zuchai crystals will store energy
indefinately like the capacitors listed with the black globe.  It is
also mentioned that they are used only for jump drives (not to
store black globe energy).  Besides even if this wasn't true, you
would be basing everything on the assumption.

>  The problem there is that the numbers in HG don't add up; the listed
>charging period is not enough (by a factor of ten or so) to fill the HG
>designated capacitors. So, is that a glitch, or is the Jump drive an
>internally-inconsistent super-fusion reactor that uses the majority of
>the LHyd for coolant?

Or maybe you assumption is correct.  Or maybe the rest of the hydrogen
is converted to energy and used directly in the jump drive.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 01:47:28 -0500
From: "Stevie D (aka Bloo)" <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

Zane H. Healy wrote:

> >Shadow wrote:
> >
> >>> * Interesting insertions of modern US slang: somebody tell the editor
> >that
> >>> "My bad" [meaning 'my mistake' for those not familiar with it] may work
> >for
> >>> prime time sitcoms and Hollywood, it just doesn't evoke "Traveller" to
> >me.
> >
> >You mean to tell me that actual English (well, American English) speaking
> >people actually use that expression?  When I saw it in some of the posts on
> >the TML, I assumed it was a misconstruction by one of our English as a
> >second language people.  They can be expected to misconstruct our language,
> >but home groan errors like that are (to me) unbelievable.  I suppose it's
> >ebonics.
>
> Well, if it's "My bag" this is referring to, I heard the expression a lot
> in the Navy.  But then the USN isn't the best indication of any version of
> English.

My my high school education in the projects,  this phrase was, as Zane explains,
"My Bag" to mean "my fault/mistake/etc."  Later, due to the illteracy of many,
it became "my bad" with the same meaning.  Of course, if said in the correct
vernacular, it is impossible to distinguish which version was spoekn.

Its certainly a lot better than "Oooh!  Crack your face!  Pick those pieces up
off the floor."  Or "For real?  You be lying."  - pronounced "F'real? You be
Lion."

An early precursor of Aslan influence.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 10:55:16
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #105

At 11:12 PM 5/02/98 -0500, you wrote (with lots of stuff deleted) :
>
>Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:42:58 -0500
>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
>Subject: Re: Sword class cruiser

>>Have you got enough helplar reaction mass to sleaze another jump-1 if
>>neccessary ?
>>
>Not quite, unless you cross pump 2625 Cubic Meters or about 188 tons of fuel
>from the fusion plant tanks, actually not a bad thought. It would simply
>shorten your F-plant duration form 1 year, requireing more exact booking as
>the only draw back I can see.

*grin* do the numbers on it :)

>>I take it thats 1000 MW for 1 hour ?
>>
>1000 MW/hrs

If it is from batteries then they are going to run out of charge sooner or
later.

>>
>>Why ElectroStatic Armour ? It is completely ineffective against lasers,
>>PAWs and Meson Guns ... all of which tend to be what is shooting at you in
>>space.
>>
>
>I liked the idea of a debris screen mentioned in relation to the Low Tech
>Colony ship on another thread 8^>

Me, I dont think this ship will do the fractions of C that the LTCS was
built for.

>>
>>3000 km is *well* under the 15 000 km range of a nuke det laser missile.
>>
>Not being very familiar with ships above adventuring size  I fear that I
>under rated this. If you have a suggested size please let me know.

TL12 and down nuke det lasers go out to 15 000km, so I'd suggest 20 or 25
000 km. If you're conservative, go for 50 000 km.

>>>20 Meson Screen (0.64MW)
>>
>>This is a *very* weak meson screen. Either put in one that will stop a
>>spinal mount meson gun, or save the mass, space and surface area and rely
>>on being somewhere else when the pions arrive.
>>
>Again, inexperience shows, suggested sizes welcome.

With 5 gees, I'd probably go for zero, and rely on staying out of the way
of point zero.


>Leftover preferences from a by-gone day. This is the second "published" ship
>since CT days and I tend to "think" in laser and missile terms, small
>adventuring size craft thinking. I'll have to ponder on this a bit.

10ktons aint a small adventuring ship :)

>
>Here are the stats for the light laser turrets...
>Weapon Design
>Base TL 12
>Focal Array Mount: 0 Turret
>Focal Array Diameter: 2
>Focal Array Length: 0.12
>Focal Array Type: 0 Tunable
>Discharge Energy: 120
>Effective Range: 100000
>Targeting Range: 1 Long (300,000km)
>Focusing Type: 1 Grav focused
>Crewstation present: 0 No
>MFD Present: 1 Yes
>Number of weapons: 1
>Rate of fire: 50
>Weapon Armor: 0
>Buffer Space: 2 84m turret

120 megajoules output ... you aint kidding when you call them light lasers.
120 MJ output is damage value ummm 28 or so, which means they can punch 1.5
cm of superdense or so. With any sane and reasonable combat system, this is
going to have a lot of trouble penetrating real armour.

>
>The Large Lasers...
>Base TL: 12
>Focal Array Mount: 1 Bay
>Focal Array Diameter: 9.4
>Focal Array Length: 0.6
>Focal Array Type: 0 Tunable
>Discharge Energy: 600
>Effective Range: 2209000
>Targeting Range: 1 Long (300,000km)
>Focusing Type :1 Grav focused
>Crewstation present :1 Yes
>MFD Present :1 Yes
>Number of weapons: 4
>Rate of fire: 50
>Weapon Armor: 0
>Buffer Space: 4 100std bay
>

OK. It is over-engineered, in that it has an effective range of seven
light-seconds or so. Drop the diameter down to give it a sane and
reasonable range - about a million kilometers sounds about right to me.

Megajoulage is about right, at TL maximum :)

One trick, if you have the spare area and volume in a bay or turret, is to
max out the limiting factor with Fusion+ units. This will reduce the load
on your main power plant.

>>
>>If you are looking for a 15 dton fighter, you really cant go past Svensson
>>Small Craft - best known for their excellent lifeboats, the Wasp class
>>Light Fighter is completing it's test flights even as we write.
>>
>We await a copy of the specifications and the test flight results ;^)
>>

Coming Real Soon Right Now, in Patrol, Command and Strike versions :)

>>It strikes me as being a very big frigate - pure laser/missile armament but
>>high gees - rather than a cruiser-type ship, but an interesting design.
>>
>Originally I classed it as a frigate, then waffled. perhaps I should change
>it back...
>>
>>Ian Whitchurch
>>
>Ian, thank you for you comments.

Cool :) I like being a ship design critic :)

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 00:07:59 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump drives and jump torpedoes

>>Really? What page? I can't find it in my copy of "High Guard". Perhaps we
>>have
>>different editions.

>I'll send the page number tonight so you can see if appears in your
>edition
>if you want.

Bottom of page of 22...

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:14:31 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)

>Not "pop," please...  Star Wars, Monty Python, Aliens, et al I can handle.
>;-)

I didn't know that the aforementioned stuff fell out of the realm of popular
culture...

But, no, I guess you're right.  Nobody's ever heard of Star Wars...  What
exactly is a Monty Python?  Is it poisonous?  A wrestling hold? and aliens?
Which ones?  The little grey buggers with huge eyes, or the squidly ones on
the covers of old sci-fi comic books?  ;^)

Semo (the Fetus)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:25:55 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

>My my high school education in the projects,  this phrase was, as Zane
explains,
>"My Bag" to mean "my fault/mistake/etc."  Later, due to the illteracy of
many,
>it became "my bad" with the same meaning.  Of course, if said in the correct
>vernacular, it is impossible to distinguish which version was spoekn.

Unless of course it, as many things do, evolved in a parallel fashion in two
different cultures at once.

And what does the "illteracy" of many have to do with a phrase that is most
often heard not read?  But yes, your point about "illteracy" is well taken.

>Its certainly a lot better than "Oooh!  Crack your face!  Pick those pieces
up
>off the floor."  Or "For real?  You be lying."  - pronounced "F'real? You be
>Lion."

The person who said "Ooooh!  Crack your face!  Pick those pieces up," probably
used to get made fun of alot for being...  ahem...  shall we say, white?

Semo (the Fetus)
...who isn't really a whitey, just plays one on TV

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:53:20 EST
From: Haegen@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #105

What is this winmail.dat that I keep getting? I have no software on my
computer that can read it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:39:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Heplar

Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> wrote:

someone else>> Does anyone else find it odd that the development of HEPlaR
stops at it's
>> introduction?  Or for that matter, what about all the other systems that are
>
>If something is already at or near 100% efficiency, where do you
>improve?

Mental processes scream to a halt...

You mean TNE *scrapped* Thruster plates as canon because it wasn't
believeable or realistic and replaced it with something verging on broken?

Am I right in thinging that a Heplar drive is basically an add on block to
a fusion reactor now, not a separate  fusion reactor?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 08:57:47 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

Why not use the free version of Delphi 1 (included on numerous cover CDs in the
UK - and in the US I assume).

The free version does not grant you redistribution rights of the compiled EXE,
but I see no problem with e-mailing the source to an owner of the full version
(me, for example) who can run the final compile for you.

The free version lets you do everything on your own machine that the full
version does (I have Delphi 1, 2 and 3 as well as TPW 1.5)

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:41:28 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

- -> >Oh, this is new to me...when did he die?
- -> 
- -> Soon after the Dune movie was done but I'm shure that was just a coincidence ;)
Yes, that must have been a shock for him.
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 01:47:04 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #105

> What is this winmail.dat that I keep getting? I have no software on my
> computer that can read it.
> 

Microsoft Exchange email client is not MIME compliant, it is in a
proprietary format, so Netscape and other email programs do not read it
properly.  Just disregard it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:23:47 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: What accents do you use...

> ObTrav:  How much dialect do you, as GMs and players, use to differentiate
> races/ethnicities
Well, regional accents form a very large part of internation in modern
Dublin (where we have at least 12 in the city alone), so we use them quite
a bit in the game.
I actually use Chinese, not Russian, for my Zhodani.
Sword Wolders do quite well with South African accents.
For Darrians I use a broad American accent.
For Vilani, particularly bureaucrats, I use a more whiny American accent.
Nobles of all races use a British accent.
Local indigents of all worlds have localised accents. I tend to mix and
match between various inner city Dublin accents for them.

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:31:49 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: 101 Customs - Slang

One of the sections of 101 Customs (never completed) was on Slang and
Jargon. The groupings were:
Naval Jargon
Scout Language
Rogue Speak
Merchant Sign Language
Entertainer Slang

I'll leave you with Merchant Sign Language, which was developed (and used)
at a games convention...

99. Merchant Sign Language
     When making a sale dockside merchants will often work with more than
one person on a single customer. Each will hand over between them and hope
to wear them into accepting a sale. To coordinate clearly they have
developed an informal method of exchanging opinions non-verbally of how
they should progress the sale.
     Stroke the nose - Customer is not going to make a purchase, wind it
down.
     Tug the ear - Customer will buy at that price, keep talking.
     Rub the chin - Rescue me! Customer is just a talker, won?t buy and
won?t go.
     Tounge in left corner of mouth - raise the price/offer.
     Tounge in right corner of mouth - lower the price/offer.
     Finger tap on the right cheek - use a soft-sell approach
     Scratch bridge of nose - go for a hard sell
     Rub forehead - make the final offer
     Scratch left ear - sweeten the deal
     Crack knuckles - my turn to talk




     Jo Grant

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 13:01:44 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Updated Web Site

Hello everybody.. 
I just updated my Web site at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061

Now even more info on the Ancients, easier to read, and generally more
fun. Have a look!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:38:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...

In mail you write:

> At 09:46 PM 2/4/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> * Interesting insertions of modern US slang: somebody tell the
>>> editor that "My bad" [meaning 'my mistake' for those not familiar
>>> with it] may work for prime time sitcoms and Hollywood, it just
>>> doesn't evoke "Traveller" to me.

>>So *that* is where it came from. I've seen it around, but just put it
>>down to the typical poor English all too many kids have these days. 
>
> I find it utterly loathsome, and tend to drop about a hundred million
> respect points for those who use it.  This may not be fair, as it
> apparently has hit common culture, but I reserve the right to be elitist. :)

"No, I'm not an Elitist. Why do you ask, peasant?"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:59:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slang (was: Re: Justice...sort of...at last...)

In mail you write:

> Semo:
>> friends.  Our speech with each other is peppered with just a few too many
> pop-
>> culture references, in jokes, and bizarre phrases that have been picked up
>> over the years...
>
> Not "pop," please...  Star Wars, Monty Python, Aliens, et al I can handle.
> ;-)
>
> See Heinlein for an excellent treatment of such speach patterns
> (particularly _I will fear no evil_).

Actually, I find "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistres" to be the best example.
It's a great example of linguistic mixing. Yet it can be understood
with a bit of effort. 

Invent something like that for some common culture and you might wind
up with your players speaking it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 02:46:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Titanic - was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #95

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>In mail you write:
>
>>> One interesting bit of speculation (that will probably remain speculation,
>>> since there's no good way of proving it), is that the Titanic was also
>>>built
>>> with steels that became very brittle in the cold (this property wasn't
>>>known
>>> at the time).  This theory was mentioned in an issue of _Naval History_
>>> sometime within the last year or so.
>>
>>It's been tested with a plate recovered from the Titanic. At the temp
>>of the water at the time of the accident the stuff practically
>>*shatters* when given Charpy test.
>
> Did they account for degradation of the steel plate over time (85 years in
> a cold wet environment?

I would assume so. Of course, very little deteroiration is likely at
that depth. Between the cold and the lack of oxygen, most corrosion is
driven by biological mechanisms.

>>The TV program that showed the test above also tries to find that ship.
>
> And...?

No luck. But the last position info is considered *very* untrustworthy
(I forget why).

> I'm getting sort of inspired to write a scenario involving a meteorite, a
> liner and sabotage and a decaying orbit. Having seen Titanic and Fifth
> Element recently it'd be an interesting blend. May be a bit close to Signal
> GK though...

Orbits only decay under rather special circumstances. Otherwise the
moon would have been in our laps a *long* time ago. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 02:20:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: English?

In mail you write:

> Richard A. Flores writes:
>
>>>And, yeah, its poor English I guess, but where would we be if language
>>>never changed?
>>
>>Dost thou not know?  Forsoothe, wouldest thou care to know?

<Snip of Beowulf excerpt>

>    You may find the rest at:
> http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/beo-ms.html
>
>    An excellent Web site for "real" English can be found at:
> http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/oe/old_english.html
>
> Beo ge gesunde,

That's Old English (aka Anglo-Saxon). "Dost thou..." is *modern*
English. Chaucer is Middle English, and probably at the extreme for
likely drift between now and the Imperium

Remember, printing slowed the rate of change considerably. We are
farther from Shakespeare than he was from Chaucer, yet we can read his
works with little trouble. 

Audio and video recording are slowing things even further. It's highly
unlikely that we'll get any major shifts in the *language*. What we may
get is more streamlining of grammar and a lot of vocabulary changes. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 06:57:14 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Campaigns

> The K'Kree and Hivers aren't all that important to Imperial History, and
> making them small pocket empires bottlenecking an open frontier to trailing
> works for me.
>                    .
>                     . . . .    .
>          Zhodani   .  Sword .   .    Vargr    .
>                    .   Worlds . .   States   .
>               . . . . . . . . .   . . . . . .
>        . . . . Spinward                     . . . .
>                  Marches                    .      .
>                                             . K'kree .
>                   . .   Imperium   *        .         .
>                       .     Core           .  . . . . .
>         C        Aslan .                  . T
>         |              . . . . . .  . . . .  h       New
>   S <--- ---> T        .          . Hivers .  e       Sectors
>         |              . Solomani .         .   Gap    Placed
>         R              .         . . . . . .            Here
>                         . . . . .
> 
> 
> Moving the K'kree coreward and leaving a gap between them and the Hivers
> allows an opening out of the "trap" and frontier expansion to trailing. It
> also puts the K'kree closer to the Vargr and that has interesting
> possibilites. ;->  Place new sectors in "The Gap" and beyond.
> 

This is a good solution, but is really not necessary if you go to 3
dimensions.  The overlying and underlying sectors of the standard
Imperial map give a huge amount of growing space without moving the
aliens.  New directions are GalNorth/GalSouth. 
 To imagine this imagine nestling small spheres next to the big spehere
of the Imperium.  Where the small spheres dont block the Imperium has
expanded out some, providing lots of frontier.
The problem is the falsehood of a 3 dimensional universe where we all
know it is flat;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:06:05 -0000
From: Alex Ferrie <daishan@malkier.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: LS Communications - (Was Re: Temporal Aspects of Jump Drive)

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD3300.1BC2A6C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just a question here, but are you taking relativity into account? It's =
all very well to say that a ram jet produces x amount of thrust, but as =
the ship accelerates to relativistic speeds, it's mass will increase ( =
according to Einstein and  current thought in physics). This obviously =
means that the thrust generated will become less and less effective. =
Also, thanks to the time dilation effects at close to light speed, the =
trip may take 5 years to an outside observer, but substantially less =
time would have passed for those on board.=20
Just my 2p worth.
Alex Ferrie =20

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Richard A. Flores [SMTP:cybernot@gte.net]
Sent:	04 February 1998 06:37
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: LS Communications - (Was Re: Temporal Aspects of Jump =
Drive)

Bloo wrote:

>Side question relating to this:  anyone know off hand the fastest possible
>sub-light speeds for a ship at TL 8-9?  I know it will vary greatly by engine
>type, but if it were half-light, that would allow some amount of contact
>between close systems - a 7 year trip.

In answer to your first question, just under the speed of light.

If all you want is contact, then just launch a small ship with a double
100,000 AU transceiver.

At TL9 using a Bussard ram jet engine, a ship could reach better than 98%
the speed of light.  Spanning a parsec would take less than 5 years at 1G.

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #106
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
x>"                       IPM.Microsoft Mail.Note 1
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(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Null development in key areas
The Fourth Fronteir War
Re: Winmail.dat attachments  [was: Traveller-digest V1998 #105]
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: winmail.dat
Storing Hydrogen (was: Jump drives)
Looking for DALE POOLE...
winmail.dat
Re: Jump drives
RE: In space, no one can hear your accent...
Rob Prior, What's With Your E-Mail?
RE: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: chair dogs
Re: Jump drives
Re Campaigns
Re Silent Auction (a bit long - sorry)
RE: winmail.dat
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: winmail.dat
Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...
Re: Campaigns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 11:48:34 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

<<<<Does anyone else find it odd that the development of HEPlaR stops at 
it's introduction?  Or for that matter, what about all the other systems 
that are introduced and never improved?  As useful as some of these 
things are, I would think that development would continue and the 
improvements could be introduced for a few tech levels anyway.  Even if 
it is just for niche uses, they are there.>>>>

[snip lots of good stuff from Anders Backman]

Didn't jump capability progress though?  I thought that jump-1 was the 
initial thing that was found.  However, the Terrans developed J-3 as 
compared to the J-2 of the Vilani.  How did we develop that?  What were 
the steps taken to go from J-3 to J-4 and so on?  How long did it take?

Who is currently spending Cr 'Billions and Billions' to come up with 
J-7?

Greg

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: 06 Feb 1998 13:57 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: The Fourth Fronteir War

Our campaign currently is in the Marches in 1017.  Strephon isn't
the emperor yet, and the 4th Fronteir war isn't here.  Does anyone
have data on the war, how it brewed, where it was fought, what
type of fleets fought it, details?

And anyone have helpfuls on how I can worm it into the background
of the game?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:52:58 +0000
From: "Paul Rocchi" <paul_rocchi@sns.ca>
Subject: Re: Winmail.dat attachments  [was: Traveller-digest V1998 #105]

Date:          Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:52:31 -0500
From:          owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
To:            traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
Subject:       Traveller-digest V1998 #106
Reply-to:      traveller@mpgn.com

> What is this winmail.dat that I keep getting? I have no software on my
> computer that can read it.
> 
It's a bit of code for exchanging rich text format for Microsoft 
Exchange mail readers. The default for Microsoft Exchange ASSUMES 
everybody else you mail uses exchange. Which is wrong.  Would 
list-posters using Microsoft mailers please, please, PLEASE deselect 
the option that sends rich-text mail when mailing to the list

Thank you.
Paul Rocchi  SNS Shared Network Services Inc.
Paul_Rocchi@sns.ca (Business)
procchi@Total.net (Personal)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 11:03:20 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

At 12:22 PM 2/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Evidence of Number 2 below: Vilani pilots who still dim their lights before 
>entering jump, Droyne ships with a collection of coyns under the main drive 
>access panel, the Vargr custom of beating the first crewman aboard to 
>reduce the chance of a misjump...
>
>These races have had jump drive for centuries - you don't have mystical 
>mumbo-jumbo associated with a well-understood and familiar piece of 
>technology.

Not really.  most human activities are influenced by superstition.  For
example, Michael Jordan wears his University of North Carolina basketball
shorts under his Bulls' uniform for every game.  He thinks they help him
keep his youth.  I know several pilots who will not fly if certain rituals
are not followed.

despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I would never
hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted Monty Python just
before the shot.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:08:06 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

Haegan wrote:

>> What is this winmail.dat that I keep getting? I have no software on my
>> computer that can read it.

J-Man replied:

>Microsoft Exchange email client is not MIME compliant, it is in a
>proprietary format, so Netscape and other email programs do not read it
>properly.  Just disregard it.

Walter G. Smith wrote:

>I think it's more than that - I've had the same problem using Microsoft
>Outlook, which (with the Internet Mail Patch) is MIME compliant. I also (as
>best I can tell) have the system set not to use the MIME rich text format -
>should I turn that feature on?

I doubt it.  I use the plain-text mode and don't get any complaints.  If he
does need to change back to rich text format, then probably I do to.  If we
do, let us know.

>I apologize to everyone here for the inconvenience, I need to use a
>Microsoft email program to be compatible with the office intranet where I
>work - I know the solution is a simple one, but it has so far eluded me.
>Anyone have some other ideas?

I suspect that Haegan was only curious as to what he was missing.  If so,
then I believe I can reasure him that he's not missing a thing.  Like J-Man
said, it's just a format incompatability.  Someone is sending information
that your system can't use, so it tacks it on just incase you need it for
something else.

>And to Herr Koehne - flames and personal attacks for someone else's
>software error are neither constructive nor interesting. Grow up.

Did I miss something?  Has Michael sent a message I didn't get?  I haven't
seen anything from him yet today.  Or is there another Herr Koehne on the
list that I don't know about?  If you are talking about J-Mann's (oops in
the German mode there, that should be J-Man's) response, I don't think it
was intended as a flame or a personal attack.

When I first started using the internet, I used to get winmail.dat
attachments on my email from a friend when he was at work and none when he
was at home.  I quoted a couple back to him and he said it was exactly what
was sent.  So, I followed J-Man's advice before he gave it.  It didn't seem
to affect anything, so I just ignored it.  If the email itself didn't say
there was an attachment, I didn't look at the attachments from him from
work.

I think you're being a little oversensitive Walt.  I'm not being critical.
Really I'm not.  We all have to deal with incompatibility issues from time
to time.  If we could learn a lesson from our computers, perhaps things
would go better.  The lesson we could learn is illustrated by this
winmail.dat attachment.  His computer can't fully use what someone else's
computer is sending (probably not yours Walt), so it just ignores it and
does it's job, but keeps it in case it's needed for something else.

If we were more like that, I think things would probably be a little easier
on all of us.

<preacher mode OFF>

I'm sorry I got so long winded there.  I wouldn't have, but, I bet Michael
will feel a little upset when he reads the missive that lead to my response.
J-Man too if he thinks your response was directed at his attempt to offer a
word of helpful advice.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:43:42 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Storing Hydrogen (was: Jump drives)

Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:55:17 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
>>Ah, you are talking about why don't you store non-jump fuel as water
>>since the purfiers can convert those need "on the fly"?  All, I
>>can say that is that I would assume that, since you need to store
>>the fuel as hydrogen for be available for jump, it is easier
>>to handle all the fuel the same way.

>But one of the invariants in the Traveller background through all four
>incarnations is that the prime constraint on ship design is volume. In
>CT weight was no constraint at all, in QSDS it is hidden and even in MT
>and TNE it is a minor concern (I don't know about FF&S2).

Yes, and I think this may have been a mistake.

>>The only other approach I can think of is to fiddle with the stats for
>>spitting water (ammonia, etc.) so that it is slow or needs to be done
>>external to the ship.
>
>Thereby violating another bit of canon (unrefined fuel).

Actually, it wouldn't.  Unrefined fuel usage is almost always
froma gas giant which is mostly hydrogen and the premise would
be that urefined fuel is using that hydrogen without processing

>>Either that or simply restrain jump in terms of
>>weight (instead of, or in addition to, volume).  [Maybe I'll
>>recommend that for GURPS Traveller.]

>Yes, that's a much better approach. Totally against the entire Traveller
>canon, rules and background both, though.

I don't know about "against".  The implication is that the volume
is the "most important" variable so it, at least, add things not
previously addressed.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:08:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Looking for DALE POOLE...

I'm trying to get in contact with DALE POOLE, who participated in the TML
PBEM several years ago.  If you are that person, or if you know how to
reach him, I would appreciate it if you would please contact me ASAP.

Thanks very much in advance.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 23:32 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: winmail.dat

Moin Walter G. Smith,

> And to Herr Koehne - flames and personal attacks for someone else's 
> software error are neither constructive nor interesting. Grow up.

	I'm have a site in UseNet for nearly 10 years. The best thing to
	say about the old net was, that is was imposible for windummys
	to use it. Its imho a shame for your university to use MicroSoft
	and not a Unix system, and its even more shame that its badly
	configured. Unlike you I have to pay for my phone, and for my
	diskspace. I've received about 100 copies of that junk within
	the last weeks. And the number are steady growing as are the
	numbers of WinDummies in the Net - Its a bit like running
	against windmills, I think I will have to install a filter.

	Ok to be constructive :

	Take the flames - PRINT THEM - and put them on the desk of
	your system operator with the request, to solve the problem
	IMEDIATE!

By Michael.

PS : Its of course a shame for me, that I'm wasting time and space with
     this posting. Previous flames to him have been private, but he has
     adressed my name here in public. I would prefer that followup
     flames use the private way as usual to reduce noise on the TML.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:24:13 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Jump drives

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

>But one of the invariants in the Traveller background through all four
>incarnations is that the prime constraint on ship design is volume. In
>CT weight was no constraint at all, in QSDS it is hidden and even in MT
>and TNE it is a minor concern (I don't know about FF&S2).

In FF&S2 mass is only a consideration for impulse engines.  Jump drives are
strictly a matter of volume as they always have been.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:14:31 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: In space, no one can hear your accent...

Glenn:
> > ObTrav:  How much dialect do you, as GMs and players, use to differentiate
> > races/ethnicities (is that the right word for people from different planets?
> > nationalities?)?  The question reminds me of a '70s era translation of some [snip]
> I think that your questions are too broad astrographically.  Humans [big snip -- geez...]

I didn't mean this as a serious treatment of the linguistic elements
involved!  Gack!  I'll leave that to Kenji and the boys on the travlang list
(I only lurk there).  There's no feasible way of EVER doing that for the
10,000 worlds of the Imperium, any Imperium.

> This is a difficult problem in running NPCs in Traveller games.  My
> players can't really distinguish my Menorbian nomad's accent from the
> Regina street tough's.  
> 
> I haven't even addressed how non-human linguistics work.  My Vargr NPCs
> sound a little like the dog Astro from The Jetsons.  

*snicker*  The problem is, yes, NPCs, and in my own humorous way (humorous
to me ;-) I was asking the populace at large how many of them even bother
trying to feign accents to differentiate different "nationalities" (for lack
of a better term)...  Along the same lines as the discussion of scents and
scent memories that recently took place on the Dark Conspiracy list.  (I
covertly open the vial of Chanel No. 5, and a chill horror begins to fill
the room...)

I think you've got the right idea with Rover there.  That's what I was
talking about.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:41:00 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Rob Prior, What's With Your E-Mail?

Rob, TravLang has been getting sporadic bounces on your
subscription; not all messages fail, but some do.  Your address
is on the TravLang records as Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca; is this
correct?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:29:42 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

J-man:
> > Windows Versions are always preferable... Most people who use PCs use
> > Windows,
> > and very few casual users drop down to DOS. Frankly, I am more
comfortable
> > than most in DOS, and I would prefer a Windows version.
> > 
> > Marc Miller
> 
> You and me both, Marc.  I installed 4DOS 6.55 under windows 95 because I
> do most of my important file manipulation from DOS.  I know, i could use
> Explorer (or in my case, Explorer+ that comes with Powerdesk), but I
> just like DOS better.

Heh.  I love the command line (*nix or dos), but I've recently discovered
that it doesn't work with some hardware the way one might expect (Iomega Zip
drives)...  The whole reason that I have begun posting again instead of
trying in vain to wade through the 50MB of TML I accumulated from November
to January was that COPY in a batch file managed to trunk the email file
from 48418 bytes to 11 bytes.  Heh.  Read all of real quick like.  ;-(  One
more example of failed backward compatibility, and my ability to read the
documentation.  [That's the one thing that's so eerie about Macs...  No
command line that I can find.]  "Don't use copy from DOS" in the readme
should've been my first clue.  Heh.

We discussed programs last year a couple of times...  I'm thinking about
imposing on o/s upgrade on my PCs ship; easy to do since only two of the PCs
are even part owners in the ship.  Heh.  Or is that too evil?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:36:55 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: chair dogs

Volker Griemann wrote:

>-> >Oh, this is new to me...when did he die?
>->
>-> Soon after the Dune movie was done but I'm shure that was just a
>coincidence ;)
>Yes, that must have been a shock for him.

Herbert actually vetted the script and final film, and apparently felt it
was a good job.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:45:25 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump drives

David P. Summers wrote:
 
> You are missing the point.  Yes, I'm sure you can come up with various
> explination why things should just happen to be a certain way.  However,
> in the end things are more plausible if the way they are flows
> intuitively from the fundamental premise, rather than having
> a bunch of explinations (even if reasonably plausible) about
> why they just happen to be a certain way.

I agree 100%. But you *can* have different original premises, few in
number, that give the effect required.

The theory I like requires just *2*:

1. To enter and remain in jumpspace, you need to create an exotic
particle field surrounding the ship.

2. Jumpspace matter interacts violently with normalspace neutrons. The
"pressure" of jumpspace matter is such that some sort of non-reactive
barrier (read: protium) is required in order to keep the aforementioned
field stable, and jumpspace matter at bay.

Hans' theory requires hydrogen to "punch" a hole into jumpspace, and
works equally well.

from those two (just 2!) premises, entire reams of jumpspace theory
explaining the little details can flow... (which I have posted earlier)

> >But so is the original theory. It is just another set of unrelated
> >constraints (ie. the expenses that a tramp freighter should have, the
> >time it takes for a ship to break off in combat, the cans and can'ts
> >of black globe usage and drop tank usage, etc.).
> 
> Well, first of all, the expenses aren't part of the jump theory at
> all.  Second of all, a constraint on how a fundamental part of
> the a theory works (it just happens to have to be hydrogen, you
> also happen to still need a lanthanum grid, etc) has a lot

The grid generates the field to enter jumpspace, the hydrogen is
required to keep the field stable. They coexist easily and intuitively.

I have no beef with your point of view, btw. I disagree with the notion
that this hydrogen atmosphere hypothesis has no merit. You've yet to
convince me that there are holes in this "theory".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:34:30 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re Campaigns

My reason that the imperium is 'flat' was quite
simply that a ship passing through jump space
could not reach stars above and below the 
galactic plane. Sub light craft could, but this
was not proven to be economical with the advent
of jump. I used a handwaving similar to one
mentioned on the list a week or so ago, of jump-
space currents, but instead of it being linear
it is planar, spiralling out from the galactic core
with an effect somewhat like potential energy 
converting into kinetic energy (or vice-versa)
I use a 'polarity switch' in the jump drive to change
the way the drive reacts with the jump space current:

positive means going with the flow (rimwards)
	-a decrease in PE, gain in KE 

negative being going against the flow (corewards)
	-an increase in PE, loss in KE

transversing (spinwards-trailing) gives no change
in energy level

I understand that this isn't in any way canon, and in
actual fact has no "In Game" purpose, but it adds a
bit of "fleshing out of background" and I think it's
fun- so I use it! (that's what the game's about after all!)

Just my thruppeny bit's worth!

Cheers

Del

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
dojones@whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:20:44 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re Silent Auction (a bit long - sorry)

Writing with reference to 
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:56:26 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Silent auction

Hello all,

I actually used a somewhat similar system on one
world. (Note this system took place outside starport-
you could conduct normal trading from starport, but
the potential for profit was MUCH bigger outside,
using the locals' trading customs).

It went like this.....
The crew went from the starport into the capital city
to find a likely buyer for their trade goods after being
told of the lucrative, but quirky, market to be found 
there. They were shown into a large hostelry, with 
lots of secluded booths around an open plan centre.
The booths looked to be filled with affluent people, the
tables in the centre being occupied with much lowlier
looking patrons. On arrival they were met by a hostess
who judged them to be worthy of a mid-room table.
When they asked her about the situation she told them
that her job was as an intermediary between off-worlders
such as themselves and other mercantile businesses.
(open trade between businessmen was a taboo for their
culture- creating a special class of citizen - a go-between)*

It all boiled down to the character's generosity in tipping
the hostess to attract the attention of potential buyers.
The more she got tipped- the harder she traded for them.
For game purposes I treated it just like they were using
her services just like a broker's, and for every 5% of
final selling price she was offered, they had +1 to the
actual value table (using MT rules). 

It ended up as a very interesting nights role-playing. 
Their particular hostess went home with a very large
smile on her face, and the characters made a killing.
The players loved it, because it showed another side 
to trading that they had never 'really' experienced before
...many beers were consumed, and all in all it was a good 
laugh!- must have been, 'coz they kept plotting that world
in their trade runs for ages after.
I admit that my cargo spreadsheet took most of the 
repetetive work away from me, and let us get on with 
role (rather than roll) playing.

*(another taboo was that the 'hostess' who'd done the selling
was not allowed to act as their 'buyer'- bad business practice
in the eyes of the citizenry)

Cheers

Del

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
dojones@whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:44:45 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: winmail.dat

Walt:
> I think it's more than that - I've had the same problem using Microsoft
> Outlook, which (with the Internet Mail Patch) is MIME compliant. I also (as
> best I can tell) have the system set not to use the MIME rich text format - -
> should I turn that feature on?

So you're set to UU?  Why?  Do you have to communicate with Groupwise users?
MIME should be your choice, I would think, unless you have other
circumstances.

You might consider also a .pab "internet address" entry for TML and unselect
"Always send rich text format" when you post directly.  If you're sending it
as part of replies, something else is wrong.  (I'm using Outlook, and I
don't think anyone is getting them from me.)  Which version of Outlook are
you using?  Get 8.03 if you don't have it.  Mail me directly
(dreed@shellus.com) if you're lost already.  ;-)

Anyway, when you reply to a message Outlook should return it in the same
format that it was sent, unless you manually change the format/font/etc.

> I apologize to everyone here for the inconvenience, I need to use a Microsoft
> email program to be compatible with the office intranet where I work - I know
> the solution is a simple one, but it has so far eluded me. Anyone have some
> other ideas?

Exchange server for the office?  Give me a holler directly.  I personally
hadn't noticed them, since Outlook absorbs them without a whimper.

> And to Herr Koehne - flames and personal attacks for someone else's software
> error are neither constructive nor interesting. Grow up.

Ditto.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 18:28:33 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

I know several pilots who will not fly if certain rituals
> are not followed.


True.  Dont ever say the word "fire" in a cockpit unless you actually
see one in the airplane, and don't ever make the comment.

"This missions going pretty well."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:16:07 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I would never
> hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted Monty Python just
> before the shot.


Actually, that is what is known as "psychological focusing" and while no
one knows exactly how that works, it just does.  You tell yourself, "if
I do this, I will not miss" and you don't.  I think it's tied in to how
the sub-conscious affects the conscious mind.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:51:29 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

Michael Koehne wrote:


>Moin Walter G. Smith,
>
>> And to Herr Koehne - flames and personal attacks for someone else's
>> software error are neither constructive nor interesting. Grow up.

[snipped - troll language including PS - in order to reduce the heat]


I defended you in this public forum.  You don't know how badly I feel,
finding out that you have done exactly what he said.  Just remember, if you
are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.  Many of us
remember the "good old days" fondly, but that's no excuse for flaming.  If
you can't (or won't) help, then keep quite.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:30:54 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...

David Reed wrote:

>... I was asking the populace at large how many of them even bother
>trying to feign accents to differentiate different "nationalities" (for
lack
>of a better term)...  Along the same lines as the discussion of scents and
>scent memories that recently took place on the Dark Conspiracy list.  (I
>covertly open the vial of Chanel No. 5, and a chill horror begins to fill
>the room...)

I don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:20:36 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Campaigns

> Vic (iresources@juno.com) sez,

>I like and had thought about adding sectors in 3d.  It certainly would
>expand the exploration aspect of the game.
>
>As an explanation for centuries of non-exploration "above and below" the
>existing map, maybe you could place a large energy field above and below
>that's never been broken through until now.  Just a thought for the ones
>that always have to have a credible explanation for things.

Rather than postulate a Trek-style 'purple barrier', you might consider an
idea that Glenn Hoppe and I developed: the concept of "Jump Planes". These
planes divide the galaxy up like a layer-cake of multiple levels. Thus, on
the level represented by the canonical Imperial maps, you can access
jumpspace; but a few parsecs up or down you can't. A few more parsecs up or
down, and jumpspace is again accessible. We handwaved this by supposing
that jumpspace is a phenomenon generated by a very large, spinning mass,
such as the black hole at the galaxy's centre. It creates these planar
disk-shaped regions (or, more accurately, parabolic regions projecting from
the core singularity) of alternating jump planes and slowspace planes.

We also suggested that very massive stars (say, some O and B types, over 4
solar masses) create local distortions in the planes, which cause separate
jump planes to overlap - thus providing bridges or junctions between the
planes.

The cool thing with this idea is that it allows you to have a 3D campaign
without mucking around with 3D coordinate maps or computer models; you can
use canonical flat sector maps, but multiple levels of them. You can't jump
between levels except via the junction stars, so you don't have to worry
about the relative position of stars that are on different planes.

For more, see Glenn Hoppe's Jumpspace web-site.

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
        "...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun:
      the raw, heady essence of interstellar civilization."
                        --Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #109
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 6 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 110



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Why not go up and down? Was RE: Campaigns
Re: Campaigns
Re: Heplar
Re: chair dogs
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
Re: winmail.dat
RE: Re Campaigns
Re: Null development in key areas
Lexicostatistical Glottochronology
Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions
WINMAIL.DAT
Re: TML archives on CD-ROM/And/or question of the week
Re: Jump drives
Re: Silent auction
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #108
Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 19:12:50 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Why not go up and down? Was RE: Campaigns

The real reason Trav doesn't go GalSouth/GalNorth is that 3D mapping is
very difficult on a 2D sheet of paper. 

There isn't a very easy solution to this unless you have a computer.  At
that point you can use a nice program like Jo Grant's chview to view and
rotate 3D starmaps.  The problem comes in that you can't see depth on a
2D screen unless you can rotate the "box" of stars.  Then you can
percive the relative postions.

On paper you could over and underly normal 2D sector maps, but then you
can't see through them.

Until we have holotanks, (which the US Navy is currently building,) this
will remain a problem.  Astrogators will be well paid.

But difficult as it is the problem remains...space is 3 dimensional. 
Take the third dimension away and you loose the majesty.  Handwaves
become necessary to explain the natural.  Fleets fight battles that
would not have really taken place and empires are constrained by the
illusory vagaries of being "bound in" completely by their neighbors.

Stars are uniformly distributed in all axes about our section of the
universe, at least there are no abysses above and below constraining us
to 2D travel.

Oh, wait a minute, I've got it!!
Ancients derived jumpdrives only function in two dimensions and can't
jump through stars either.  Jumpspace is weird that way, you know.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 19:25:21 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Campaigns

> The cool thing with this idea is that it allows you to have a 3D campaign
> without mucking around with 3D coordinate maps or computer models; you can
> use canonical flat sector maps, but multiple levels of them. You can't jump
> between levels except via the junction stars, so you don't have to worry
> about the relative position of stars that are on different planes.


That is an ok handwave.  But I'm working on fixing the problem and will
solve it to my satisfaction within a year.
I'm thinking along lines of cubic sectors with very high resolution
isometric illustrations.  Joining sectors would be problemtic, but since
each sector would have a coordinate and each world its own
(x,y,z)position in its sector, it will be straighforward to figure
distances.

Jump drives will be variable and work much like a former poster stated-
with a range variable around the standard canon range, directly
proprotional to the lenght of the wormhole the drive can bridge/tunnel.

3D is allowing me to put in diverse objects, rifts, dust clouds and cool
stuff that doesnt show up on the normal Trav maps.  If you really like
SF this is the way to go.  2D is gameable but I figured out it didn't
work right when I was 15. 

If you want, just photocopy your Trav 2D's onto transparencies for
comparing navigation in the vertical.  Then you don't have to thow any
thing out and have unlimited movement.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:48:21 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Heplar

Dom wrote:

>Am I right in thinging that a Heplar drive is basically an add on block to
>a fusion reactor now, not a separate  fusion reactor?

That's about the size of it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:43:44 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

> Herbert actually vetted the script and final film, and apparently felt it
> was a good job.
> 

Yes, I heard this too, and can't figure out WHY?  I must admit, the idea
of the "wierding modules" made more sense then just shooting the noses
off the ships as what happened in the novel.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:42:01 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

> > I have yet to find any sort of program I can't run from Windows 95, with
> > some tinkering.  Yes, this counts clicking on icons that launch MS-DOS
> > mode first.
> 
> Anything that requires that doesn't stay on my HD very long.


Well in the case of the DEMOS, I wanted to see how much better they ran
on a Pentium-100 with 81megs ram and a 4meg PCI grfx card, then the
486/33 with 4megs ram and 1meg ISA video card they were designed for.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:35:23 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

> I'm sorry I got so long winded there.  I wouldn't have, but, I bet Michael
> will feel a little upset when he reads the missive that lead to my response.
> J-Man too if he thinks your response was directed at his attempt to offer a
> word of helpful advice.
> 
> 


I too, must confess a bit of confusion.  I re-read the previous messages
several times looking for the "flame" reference, but did not find one. 
Yes, I am anti-microsoft, but specifically, anti-internet explorer.  I
htankfully use all other Microsoft products but Internet Explorer IS
crap.  The early versions are full of security holes and the latest will
gradually wipe your system out.  (took about 2 months on my system). 
Netscape is obviously a much superior product but it looks like Netscape
is throwing in the towel to Microsoft.  This is a very bad thing.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:39:17 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Re Campaigns

Del:
> My reason that the imperium is 'flat' was quite
> simply that a ship passing through jump space
> could not reach stars above and below the 
> galactic plane. Sub light craft could, but this
> was not proven to be economical with the advent
> of jump. I used a handwaving similar to one

I love this!  Now all we need is an Ancient device that will allow us to
overcome the massive energy gradient to shift from one 2D plane to
another... or better yet, misjump to another plane...  I think that this an
outstanding explanation for a canonically flat "world."

Any hints as to what current-run-of-the-mill-make-the-slide-rulers-happy
string theory we should blame it on?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

p.s.  Why do so many former Mac users have such a problem with the
right-click concept?  ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 18:58:02 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> 2) Jump is something nobody really understands and the improvement in J
> numbers is a simple progression depending on computer speed or something
> but basically j-drives are black boxes to the Imerials and others.
> 
> I personally suspect 1 above but I have adopted 2 as the official
> explanation. All major races have actually copied their drives from Ancient
> artifacts but covered up the facts. The reason why physics fail to explain
> jumpspace is that is an artificial phenomena that is local ie you cannot go
> spinward or trailing for more than a few thousand parsecs.
> 

Not understandable?  In 3000 years I think we may know something more
about electromagentics, gravity and the fundamentals of our universe
than we do now.

Physics fails to explain jumpspace?
The real theory of hyperspace is growing.  It is called string theory
and simply says the universe is not 4 dimensions but instead
11(minimum.) It appears this is the fabric of the universe.

This comes from the idea that in multi dimensional math the equations
that govern electromagnetics and gravity can be nicely summed up into
matrix of higher dimensions.  And that is "jumpspace"-"inside" space.
All those other dimensions are curled up or collapsed on themselves, but
through jump drive are accesible for travel.

Some of you'se guys can take your anicents handmedowns, but I'm gonna
build my own jumpdrive that works on real, hard principles.  And I'm
going to improve it, because I know how it works.  And my starship
engineers can rip this stuff down, rebuild it and make it hum while
corresponding with Depot and the Jumpspace Institute development teams
because they are not mystical shamans praying to the black box. 
Terrans(at least) conquered jumpspace in 2087 through advances in the
hyperspace theory we are beginning now.

Of course a lot of people feel the same way about electronics and
computers as you folks are talking about jdrives, and what do you think
of that?  

Jump drive is a tool, understood in the 56th century not perfectly but
well enough to be used and improved and speculated on. 

<rant off>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:54:58 -0800
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@pacbell.net>
Subject: Lexicostatistical Glottochronology

On the development of new languages in Traveller....

Linguists Morris Swadesh and Robert Lees devised an approach in the 1940s
which determined the rate at which a language changes over the centuries.
They posited that the more cognates (i.e., shared words) between two
languages the more recently the langauages have diverged.

(To illustrate, the Italian "padre" and the Portugese "pai" are
cognates...but the Esquimo "ataataq" is not a cognate.  Further, if two
languages spoken today share 70% cognates, they probably diverged 1000
years ago.)

The approach is controversial and does indeed reflect Earth's climate,
geography and political history...but perhaps may be used for Traveller
purposes (muatatis mutandis).

Using the chart below, referees can calcuate how unitelligibly colonies
lost during the Rule of Man speak English (or Turkish).  Or how many
cognates exist between English and Vilani (perhaps a little under 1%!).
And myriad other uses, to be sure.  Enjoy!

Percent		Centuries
of Shared	Since
Cognates	Divergence (Minimum)
100		0
95		1.7
90		3.5
85		5.4
80		7.4
75		9.5
70		11.8
65		14.3
60		16.9
55		19.8
50		22.9
45		26.5
40		30.3
35		34.8
30		39.9
25		45.9
20		56.6
15		75.6
10		102.6
5		148.4
1		255

(Information culled from the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language).

- ---------------------------------
chrisraz@pacbell.net
"Open the pod bay doors, Hal...."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:59:28 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS - soliciting for opinions

> that it doesn't work with some hardware the way one might expect (Iomega Zip
> drives)...  The whole reason that I have begun posting again instead of
> trying in vain to wade through the 50MB of TML I accumulated from November
> to January was that COPY in a batch file managed to trunk the email file
> from 48418 bytes to 11 bytes.  Heh.  Read all of real quick like.  ;-(  One
> more example of failed backward compatibility, and my ability to read the
> documentation.  [That's the one thing that's so eerie about Macs...  No
> command line that I can find.]  "Don't use copy from DOS" in the readme
> should've been my first clue.  Heh.
> 


What are you trying to say here?  That copying to a zip srive from DOS
doesn't work?  Here is what I do to backup my important stuff from DOS. 
I run this .BAT file :
JCOPY.BAT :
F:
cd \
cd set
copy c:\*.*
copy c:\windows\j-*.*
copy c:\windows\jm*.*
copy c:\windows\*.grp
copy c:\windows\*.ini
copy c:\windows\text\*.*
copy c:\progra~1\plus!\themes\jm*.*
copy c:\progra~1\Netscape\users\j_man\*.*
copy c:\progra~1\Netscape\users\j_man\mail\inbox.sbd\personal.sbd\*.*
copy c:\progra~1\netscape\users\j_man\jm*.*
copy c:\progra~1\netscape\users\j_man\bookmark.htm
copy c:\progra~1\micros~2\micros~1\data\jm*.*
copy C:\DOS\JCOPY.BAT
copy c:\dos\*.lst
copy c:\4dos\4dos.ini
copy c:\4dos\4dos.pif
copy c:\4dos\4exit.btm
copy c:\4dos\4start.btm
copy c:\windows\dosstart.bat
copy C:\WINDOWS\TEXT\JMAN.TXT

cd \
cd icqset
cd uin
copy c:\progra~1\icq\uin\*.*
cd..
cd bookmark
copy c:\progra~1\icq\bookmark\*.*
cd..
cd db
copy c:\progra~1\icq\db\*.*
cd..
cd dl
copy c:\progra~1\icq\receiv~1\*.*

cd \
cd goc
copy d:\web\goc\*.h*

cd \
cd gw
cd creature
copy d:\"Gamma World"\creatures\*.*
cd ..
cd weapons
copy d:\"Gamma World"\weapons\*.*
cd ..
cd cg
copy d:\"Gamma world"\"Current Game"\*.*
cd ..
cd text
copy d:\"Gamma world"\text\*.*

cd \
cd trav
copy d:\traveller\*.*

cd \
cd SimeGen
copy d:\SimeGen\*.*

cd \
cd mydoc
copy c:\"my documents"\*.*

cd \
cd text
copy d:\text\*.*

cd \

As you can tell, my Zip Drive is "F:".  C and D are my 2.1 gig hard
drives and E is my 24x Cdrom.  this program works really good for my
needs, EXCEPT when I re-config my system and re-install things, and
forget to edit where the Zip Drive gets placed.  Example, say it was
drive E next time.  Hehe, jcopy.bat won't work too well trying to write
to the CDROM drive.

As for other DOS things, I use the following aliases :

S=`INPUT Filename: %%THE_FILE^LIST %THE_FILE`
W=`INPUT Filename: %%THE_FILE^*W %THE_FILE`
C=`INPUT Destination: %%DRIVE^SELECT COPY (*.*) %DRIVE`
M=`INPUT Destination: %%DRIVE^SELECT MOVE (*.*) %DRIVE`
D=SELECT DELETE (*.*)
R=`INPUT Old Filename: %%F^INPUT New Filename: %%NF^RENAME %F %NF`
E=`INPUT Archive Name: %%F^ARJ y -je %F `
T=`INPUT File To Try: %%F^pkunzip %F d:\dl\temp`
B=`DIR *.GIF^INPUT GIF Filename: %%F^INPUT New BMP Filename: %%NF^BMPIT
%F %NF`

You'll notice DELETE and not DEL, I use a program that moves files in
DOS to the RECYCLE BIN just like deleting files in Windows, because
there have been times I accidentally deleted files I needed, and unlike
previous versions of DOS, DOS 8.0 does not have the UNDELETE function.

The rename command up there works for directory names as well.  Just
type : 'dirname.'  and no extension, as the old filename, and a new
'dirname.' for the new name.

What the rest do is put up a menu of sorts that you can navigate with
cursor keys over the file list, selecting files with SPACEBAR and ENTER
to perform the action.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:40:22 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: WINMAIL.DAT

With all apologies to the quiet majority of UNIX/LINUX and MAC users on the list
- - KNOCK IT OFF!

Take my word for it, if someone has just upgraded to Outlook, they don't know
they are sending the Winmail.dat file.  Hell, this is what I do for a living,
and it took me 3 weeks to figure it out why the system suddenly started spewing
them out (albeit, it was a year ago).  And I got such a rash from certain
members of the list I almost dropped off of it (if I hadn't been able to do the
majority of my TML at work on a UNIX system, I probably would have).  It is a
published bug with the program that is specific to 'REPLY-TO' addressees.

Unix isn't required to use the list.  Admittably, we (MS users) need to
configure our mail programs to the _lowest_ common denominator, but there is no
reason to beat up on people who are not even aware of what their mail program is
doing.  (and there are other mail programs that spew html format, which I find
personally annoying...)  And for the few of you who are gathering breath to drop
the hammer on how everyone should know exactly what their email program
does...please calm down.  No matter how much we may wish it, the internet is no
longer the exclusive domain of the computer-elite.  While the downside of this
can be seen in the level of conversation that occurs out on the bulk of USENET,
it also allows for many creative people who really don't care what their
computer does, or how it does it, access to forums such as our own.  It also
means that those of us with a clue, need to help those creative people who don't
care about their computer software (other than it being the latest and
greatest), but can contribute in other ways.

I hereby volunteer (that means no charge) to assist any TMLer having problems in
Outlook to reconfigure their software so as to _not_ annoy the
'I've-been-here-forever-and-you-should-be-using-what-I-use-because-it-works-for-me'
list members (sounds kinda Vilani-ish, don't you agree?).
So from now on, when someone starts posting winmail.dat files, politely point
them to me (or directly to the MS site for the Office 97 SR) and let's keep the
OS wars out in the flam...I mean newsgroups where they belong.

I will take any comments about this post offline, my email address is at the
bottom.

OBTraveller: How do you suppose the Imperium handles software upgrades?  Is the
computer hardware OS-independant?  Is there one Megacorporation (Imperial
Business Machines?) that cornered the starship computer market early in the
Imperium's history that keeps the releases compatible?  Or is the software you
buy in one Sector going to be compatible with what you buy in another Sector?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:54:11 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: TML archives on CD-ROM/And/or question of the week

I would
Thanks
Pat Connaughton

pconnaught@fia.net
pconn@simm.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:48:38 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump drives

Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:45:25 -0600, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
> > You are missing the point.  Yes, I'm sure you can come up with various
> > explination why things should just happen to be a certain way.  However,
> > in the end things are more plausible if the way they are flows
> > intuitively from the fundamental premise, rather than having
> > a bunch of explinations (even if reasonably plausible) about
> > why they just happen to be a certain way.

> I agree 100%. But you *can* have different original premises, few in
> number, that give the effect required.
> 
> The theory I like requires just *2*:

Well, the issue is not that the theory would be OK on it's own.
But that you are now going to try and push it into a background
designed arouind a "field" theory.

> > >But so is the original theory. It is just another set of unrelated
> > >constraints (ie. the expenses that a tramp freighter should have, the
> > >time it takes for a ship to break off in combat, the cans and can'ts
> > >of black globe usage and drop tank usage, etc.).
> > 
> > Well, first of all, the expenses aren't part of the jump theory at
> > all.  Second of all, a constraint on how a fundamental part of
> > the a theory works (it just happens to have to be hydrogen, you
> > also happen to still need a lanthanum grid, etc) has a lot

> The grid generates the field to enter jumpspace, the hydrogen is
> required to keep the field stable. They coexist easily and intuitively.

Well, no.  The problem is that the previous constraints for
the field theory make you do things that don't follow from
a "ballast" theory.  It does not follow inuitively that 
ballast has to be hydrogen (yes, you can come up with
rationalizations, but that is the point, you do have to
come up with them).  It doesn't follow intuitively that 
you would be getting energy signature when you come out
of jump space rather than matter.  When you center the
theory around one effect, and then also require another
effect (the lanthanum grid) it isn't as simple.  Etc.

> I have no beef with your point of view, btw. I disagree with the notion
> that this hydrogen atmosphere hypothesis has no merit. You've yet to
> convince me that there are holes in this "theory".

The problem, as I see it, is not so much "holes", but that
you need to patch and fill to stick it into the requirements.
I don't have any problem with the "bubble theory" if you
wanted to build a background consistently around it from
the ground up, but if you want to make changes to an
existing background they should be as small and simple
as possible (many of the holes we are looking at, like
drop tanks, seemed like equally good ideas at the time :-).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:49:12 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Silent auction

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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This is a direct copy of a passage from
Robert Heinlein's novel "Citizen of the Galaxy"
If anyone is interested .
Very good book with some neat concepts.

Thanks
Pat Connaughton
pconnaught@fia.net
pconn@simm.net



- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BD3338.4C70FBE0
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML =
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>This is a direct copy of a passage=20
from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Robert Heinlein's novel =
&quot;Citizen of the=20
Galaxy&quot;</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If anyone is interested =
.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Very good book with some neat=20
concepts.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Pat Connaughton</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:pconnaught@fia.net">pconnaught@fia.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:pconn@simm.net">pconn@simm.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:20:54
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #108

>
>Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:42:13 -0500
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Re: [TTL] HEPlaR
>
>At 09:08 AM 2/6/98 -0600, Andrew Akins wrote:
>>Making HEPlaR require fusion engine does limit the drive at lower tech
>>The problem is in the minimum size of fusion plants...
>>The idea of a TL10 fighter, for example, is pretty much out.
>
>This was Marc's specific intent.
>
>>I've been trying to design a small (100ton) TL10 starship, and it isn't
>>working out too well.
>
>Low-tech starships (below TL-11 or 12) will be big, not small, because of
>the minimum size of the fusion plant.
>
>
>
>wildstar@qrc.com

OK. Now we know who's responsible.

First of all, Fusion Plus is a marginal advantage to the TL12 Imperium.
Compared to the TL12 Nuclear Damper, the TL12 Meson Screen and the TL-12
Jump-3, it is an afterthought on the list of Sylean direct military
advantages vis a vis the Outworlds.

Fusion plus is a mere 380% efficiency increase on TL12 batteries for the
first hour of operation, or a mere 900% efficiency increase on TL12 fuel
cells.

It does not allow the impossible, as nuclear dampers, the meson screen and
the Jump-3 drive do.

Secondly, the concept of the Fighter, so lauded in the propaganda of the
Imperium, if fatally flawed by the fact that a fighter, by it's very
nature, is limited to laser and missile armament - it does not have the
length to mount PAWS or Meson Guns that will have a signifigant range in
combat.

Now, this wouldnt be so much of a problem, except that the cheapest missile
with other than a primitive engine one can build now costs MCr 2.5 with
thruster plates and fusion plus, or MCr 2 with a hot fusion engine and
Heplar. And thats before the warhead. Add in a nuke det laser warhead and
you can add a megacredit to the price. Volume is 10m3 minimum for either
the t-plates or the hot fusion plant, so a TL12 missile isnt going to get
within cooo-eee of the half a displacement ton of a "standard shipboard
missile".

Lasers, too, are limited in megajoulage by TL, which means the most
powerful laser that can be built is 600 megajoules. 600 megajoules output
will not penetrate 5 cm of superdense armour, unless we wave our hands and
rule that all sheet armours ablate and get thinner when hit but not penetrate.

Thirdly, TL9-10 ships are not neccessarily big. TL9-10 ships that need to
get out of 100 diameter gravity wells are, in order to use Fusion maneuver
drives, but a ship designed to operate between, say, Jupiter Belt on Sol
and Mitcheson Belt on Alpha Centauri could well be 200 dtons. It is just if
you have to get out of a gravity well before next week, you need to get big
enough to profitably use a Fusion m-drive. I would imagine such belts would
have many small traders who do the interstellar runs, and a few large
insystem craft that move the goods to the mainworld.

Finally, you dont need Fusion Plus to build a t-plate powered small craft.
4000 kN of t-plates needs 10 MW of power. 10m3/60t of fission plant will
provide this, and 40m3/80t of TL11 batteries will provide 40 MW a second
for an hour - enough to power a 250 MJ "standard" laser for a shot ever 32
seconds or so.

Ian Whitchurch

PS You also dont need Fusion Plus for grav tanks etc - use explosive power
generators or Chemical Laser Cartridges for the main armament, and 10 MW of
fission plant power a lot of contragrav modules.

PPS It is intriguing how Heplar, a TL10 technology, will come into it's
peak of use at TL13 and beyond, as 1m3 and smaller fusion plants make
Heplar missiles and small craft economic.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:52:06 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Why build fighters?  

Well, let me start by saying why we use them today.  They are
comparatively 
cheap compared to the price of a ship and can carry armament that can
effectively "mission-kill" most capital ships in existence today.

While I was on patrol in the Carib last year, my brother
sent me an e-mail off of this list concerning Battleships
alleging that very large ships held no advantage other than 
being flashy.  The writer opined that the optimum size for
a battleship was in the 30,000 to 50,000 ton range using 
reasoning that was apparently based on the MT or CT spinal
mount tables.  He stated that at this size you could obtain
a "decent" spinal mount, ship, etc...

Within that context, I would concede the writer's point.  However
that context is itself incorrect because it assumed an arbitrary
"off-the-shelf" spinal mount maximum size and didn't specify the
most critical factor in modern weapon design, which is range.

The ship which accurately fires first often is the one which fires last.
Given the design tables in FF&S (either version) there would exist a
continuous pressure to build ships of ever greater length to support
the development on the massive spinal mounts that formed their cores.
The needle design is the most efficient for this purpose, perhaps
along with the long wedge, since it gives the greatest maximum 
weapon length per volume.

Battle riders, constrained by their tender lengths and the requirement
for nesting, would necessarily be constrained in length and
therefore have a much shorter "first hit" range than dreadnoughts.
In other words, they would die in a fight without ever getting a shot 
off.  This concept, "standoff distance" would ensure that longer ships
have an advantage in deep space combat and battle become ranging duels.

This mirrors the way battleship development progressed during the
first half of this century, although the critical factors included
armor penetration as well.  This would be true for the weapons I am
talking about as well.

For the BR concept to be effective, jump tenders would have to carry
very "long" BRs, perhaps 2-4 and the JT would have to be a lattice
like dispersed skeletal structure much like the Valley Forge from Silent
Running.

With ships this massive, the fighter would cease to be a major
asset in large fleet actions as it would carry armament incapable
of inflicting significant damage on large ships.

Fighters would be valuable for patrol work, system interdiction, 
anti-piracy patrols off of a larger launch platform.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #110
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 7 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 111



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPLAR
WINMAIL DAT
Re: [TTL] HEPlaR
TRTOOLS and other things
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS
Re: English?
Re: Campaigns
Re: Why not go up and down? Was RE: Campaigns
Re: winmail.dat
Flat Campaigns
Re: Campaigns
Re: winmail.dat
Imperial upgrades (was Re: WINMAIL.DAT)
Re: Silent Auction
Fusion & HEPlaR
Re: Campaigns
Re: [TTL] HEPlaR
jump drives, canon and various
re: jump drives
Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 19:16:36 -0800
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Re: HEPLAR

Yes, life can indeed be interesting at lower TL's if you like small
potent ships (like me -- on both counts), but here are a few design
concepts I've monkeyed with:

1) The HIW (High-Energy Weapons) Interceptor. So the smallest fusion
plant you can get at TL10 is about 36 tons. Big deal. If you get lemons,
make lemonade -- wrap a 90-ton fighter around it armed with a blistering
array of laser turrets. Jack the rate of fire as far up as you please.
You now have Power To Burn.

2) What's Wrong With Fission? Nothing, as long as you don't mind
inflicting a Chernobyl on yourself every time a bad guy shoots one of
your fighters down. So build orbital stations to park them on, or put
them aboard grav-only fighter carriers. No problemo. Twenty or thirty of
these will represent enough hell to wreck anybody's afternoon.

However, this is a poor solution compared to...

3) Internal Combustion: The Affordable Power Plant! Won't all your smug
Fusion Plus neighbors in bed with the Imperium be surprised when you
field an environmentally safe, fiendishly maneuverable fleet of grav
fighters powered by MHD turbines (refer to the Central Supply Catalog).
A 30-ton fighter at 6 gees requires an 1800-ton drive of some sort; if
plain old contra-grav, that requires 24mw of power, which can be
supplied by a mere 3-ton MHD requiring 3.5 tons of fuel PER TEN HOURS,
including the extra oxygen you need to make the bugger run in deep
space. Your fighter is now ridiculously cheap and readily available
(TL8) and it turns and it burns and it makes cool screeching sounds like
an M-1 tank. Rad. Low-tech pocket empire kicks Imperial puppet heinie.
News at 11:00.

None of which solves the problem of deep-space travel. For commercial
purposes, how about a binary drive -- a 1G anti-grav drive (powered by
fission or MHD) combined with a 1G fusion rocket to nudge it out of the
gravity well? Or a fusion-rocket-equipped 'ferry' to cart jump-capable
trading ships in and out of the gravity well so they can jump?

And if you're going to do that last, why not go the whole hog and apply
the battlerider concept to commercial transport? and have JUMP ferries
that take whole squadrons of small trade vessels from world to world on
pre-scheduled routes? Makes buying a free trader (now a glorified
shuttle) much cheaper... what better way for a low-tech goverenment to
subsidize trade than to build a few of these behemoths and cart civilian
ships around? Puts interstellar trade within the reach of the common
man... stimulates tourism (any dork who can buy a ticket to orbit can
now go anywhere, if he's willing to wait for the right ship)... how very
enlightened of them... think it over. 

For military applications, of course, fusion rockets remain the only way
to go. Again, you gotta keep them away from your worlds, or Greenpeace
will complain and skin cancer rates will soar. Our hypothetical 30-ton
fighter would need a 14-ton rocket that costs 70 MCr. Argh. (Well, not
so bad when compared to 20th-century fighters. How much of an F-15's
bulk is taken up by ITS jet engines? And the sonofabitch can cost almost
80 million bucks if it's the latest model... naturally a spaceworthy
version MIIIIGHT cost a BIT more. Everything's relative. Consider that
at this TL the smallest possible fusion plant runs a cool 100MCr). 

The fringe benefit is that it generates 36Mw of surplus power -- an
interesting and colorful handicap, if used to power your fighter's
armaments and you can't fire unless you're at a certain amount of
thrust.... "I've been hit! I'm only at three gees! My main laser battery
is hosed!"

I wish I had some designs to send you, but I don't. The dipshit
multiplicity of incompatible design systems in this game have seen to
that. I'm waiting patiently for M. Miller to ride to the rescue (?) with
T4.1 before I commit myself. (Please, God, oh PLEASE let it include
small craft). Until then, weird ideas are all I can offer. Here's hoping
one of them proves some use. If you don't have any of the books, email
me and I'll give you the exact stats on the power plants I mentioned.

OK,

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 22:13:57 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: WINMAIL DAT

Hi folks:

I have been getting a lot of WINMAIL.DAT interruptions of my digest.  
With #107 I received two of them.

Is this happening to anyone else?

I'm not sure who is doign it, but please make it stop!  It's making me 
miss large hunks of the slang and Heplar debates.  (And everything else 
between the cracks.)

Thanks a bunch,

Niko

P.S.  Sorry to waste the bandwidth on this....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:35:18 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: [TTL] HEPlaR

>   The concept Marc wanted to put forth in "T4" was that the Third 
>Imperium
>had a decisive advantage with "fusion plus".  One of the results of 
>this is
>that they were able to build space fighters while their rivals could 
>not.
>
>   IHMO, this was totally unnecessary, and complicates trying to write 
>the
>history of earlier times (for example, how is it that both the Terran
>Confederation and Vilani Imperium were able to construct space 
>fighters
>during the Interstellar Wars? or were the counters provided in the 
>game
>"Imperium" suppose to represent craft that were called 'fighters' but 
>were
>much larger?) in addition to making small starship design a formidable 
>task.
>
Enemies of one side could have supplied the other side with arms and
fighter ships.

Just a thought.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:40:35 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: TRTOOLS and other things

Mike, I for one would be very interested in seeing a windows version of
TRTOOLS.

Also, how's Unbroken Pride going. I am sort of hanging out for the next
update (got my adventurers all reved up and ready to go). Do you want any
more outside imput?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
We're digging a hole in the road, you can't go up, you can't go down
you'll have to wait to drive around
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:01:13 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> Well, let me start by saying why we use them today.  They are
> comparatively 
> cheap compared to the price of a ship and can carry armament that can
> effectively "mission-kill" most capital ships in existence today.

Carriers are the new wave of ship-to-ship warfare, just ask the japanese
who thought they had eliminated our naval power in the pacific theatre
of world war II by sinking our capital ships in Peral Harobor, while our
carriers were out on manuevers.  With only carrier and a small handful
of capital ships left, the US Navy was forced to do a paradigm-shift
about how naval battle was to be conducted, and found out there is a
distinct advantage in Carrier vs Capital ship.  Carriers cost less, they
are faster and more manueverable, and can strike from a safe distance.

This has been debated in the Wing Commander books as well, with the
Kilrathi dealing a deadly first blow to the Human Confederation because
the humans believed Capital ships were the end-all of warfare.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 21:53:19 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS

>From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>

>If memory serves me the power was stored in a power accumulator made up
>of several silver bars connected to a power transfer cable to/through
>the ceiling right under the astrogation dome.

You are correct.  Your memory serves you well (I had to look it up).  
The storage device seems to be 'several solid silver buss bars'.  They 
are, however, located under the canopy created by the solar collectors 
and not under the astrogation dome.

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 00:46:10 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: English?

Leonard Erickson writes:

>> Beo ge gesunde,
>
>That's Old English (aka Anglo-Saxon). "Dost thou..." is *modern*
>English. Chaucer is Middle English, and probably at the extreme for
>likely drift between now and the Imperium

   I'm not so sure about that.  With the conquest of the First Imperium,
English would absorb a large number of Vilani words (as it absorbed a
large number of French words after the Norman Conquest).  During the
isolation of Long Night, regional dialects would almost certainly arise,
eventually leading to different gramatical structures, variations in
spelling, pronunciation, useage and so forth.  Galanglic therefore would
first appear in the early Third Imperium as a "pigeon" dialect that is
in reality an amalgamation of all of those new forms of English (which
would be as similar to each other as Spanish, Portugese, and Italian are
today).  Over the course of the next few hundred years Galanglic would
attain a status as a language in its own right, and evolve as new words
are imported from Vargr, Zhodani, Aslan, etc. 

>Remember, printing slowed the rate of change considerably. We are
>farther from Shakespeare than he was from Chaucer, yet we can read his
>works with little trouble.

   It slows it, but not to the degree you're thinking.  School children
today have trouble with some parts of Shakespeare, and it's not because
of outcome based-education.  The rules for useage and words in the
common language have already changed that much. 

>Audio and video recording are slowing things even further. It's highly
>unlikely that we'll get any major shifts in the *language*. What we may
>get is more streamlining of grammar and a lot of vocabulary changes. 

   Considering that the Imperial year 1116 is about 5634 AD, or about
3,632 years away (3,632 years ago would be 1634 BCE, before the Saxons
or Angles even showed up on the shores of the North Sea IIRC), I would
expect that even with mass communications I would have as much trouble
speaking to my great+ grandchildren as I would talking to the writer of
Beowulf, perhaps a little less if they stayed on Terra and didn't move
to Sylea, or some other world many parsecs away.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 19:27:28 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Campaigns

>I'm curious about how many of you have your campaigns take place within
>the existing worlds of Traveller and how many create your own sectors?

>If you create your own, where do you place your sectors in relationship
>to the existing sectors?

"In the beginning there were the little black books, and the number of the
books was three and three was their number. And those that did follow the
way of the little black books did bring forth many worlds and settings
without guidance and many great adventures where had. Then after a number
of years, lo the great one who is known as Marc bring forth an official
setting. And the masses did gaze upon this setting and they did say that it
was good; but still the settings that went before did live on in the
campaigns of their creators"

In the very early days of Traveller, there was no official setting and
everyone had to create their own sectors and settings from the ground up.
(Andy Slack published a first class article in one White Dwarf magazine
on how to do this called "Backdrop of the Stars")

I wonder how many players still use their own settings? I can think of a
least three off the top of my head.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
We're digging a hole in the road, you can't go up, you can't go down
you'll have to wait to drive around
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:35:31 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Why not go up and down? Was RE: Campaigns

Deadeye wrote:


>The real reason Trav doesn't go GalSouth/GalNorth is that 3D mapping is
>very difficult on a 2D sheet of paper.
>
>There isn't a very easy solution to this unless you have a computer.  At
>that point you can use a nice program like Jo Grant's chview to view and
>rotate 3D starmaps.  The problem comes in that you can't see depth on a
>2D screen unless you can rotate the "box" of stars.  Then you can
>percive the relative postions.

>
>On paper you could over and underly normal 2D sector maps, but then you
>can't see through them.
>
>Until we have holotanks, (which the US Navy is currently building,) this
>will remain a problem.  Astrogators will be well paid.

Actually, there is a method for charting stars 3 dimensionally on a flat
surface, but it doesn't work with the constraints of hexes.  See the
subsector illustrated below.
  ___________________________________________
 |
|
 |            *+2                             *+0
*+6        |
 |
|
 |                                 *-4                            *-1
|
 |
|
 |
|
 |           *-1                *+2                      *+5
*+7       |
 |
|
 |
|
 |
|
 |             *-4                           *+2
|
 |
|
 |
|
 |                  *+0                   *-1                        *-3
|
 |
|
 |
|
 |         *+2                   *-1                           *-3
|
 |___________________________________________|

Unfortunately with starmaps as shown, there are no clear relationships (to
our 2 dimensional thinking) between the stars distances.

I guess you take your simplifications and pay with realism.  Oh well.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:45:32 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

>> I'm sorry I got so long winded there.  I wouldn't have, but, I bet
Michael
>> will feel a little upset when he reads the missive that lead to my
response.
>> J-Man too if he thinks your response was directed at his attempt to offer
a
>> word of helpful advice.
>
>I too, must confess a bit of confusion.  I re-read the previous messages
>several times looking for the "flame" reference, but did not find one.
>Yes, I am anti-microsoft, but specifically, anti-internet explorer.  I
>htankfully use all other Microsoft products but Internet Explorer IS
>crap.  The early versions are full of security holes and the latest will
>gradually wipe your system out.  (took about 2 months on my system).
>Netscape is obviously a much superior product but it looks like Netscape
>is throwing in the towel to Microsoft.  This is a very bad thing.

J-Man, our problem is one of being outside the situ.  Your advice was sound
on an individual level, but not on a List level.  Hopefully something will
be done.  Actually, I think it either is being done or has been done.

BTW, does anyone have any problems with my using the extended ASCII
characters like "" or "".  Since this missive contains them, it should be
a clear indicator.  If you have a problem and want me to stop using them,
let me know.

Richard

cybernot@GTE.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:49:07 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Flat Campaigns

What's with all this hand waving about the flat maps.  When the players ask
why they are flat, I say, "Because this is a 2 dimensional representation of
the 3 dimensional reality."

If they don't like that, I say, "Hey lighten up, it's only a game."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:58:21 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Campaigns

> I wonder how many players still use their own settings? I can think of a
> least three off the top of my head.
> 


Make that 4.  I still do this too.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:00:14 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

> BTW, does anyone have any problems with my using the extended ASCII
> characters like "" or "".  Since this missive contains them, it should be
> a clear indicator.  If you have a problem and want me to stop using them,
> let me know.
> 
> Richard
> 


I have no problem with this as I use Netscape's email client, which
accpets everything from attachments to HTML in the message.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:23:35 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Imperial upgrades (was Re: WINMAIL.DAT)

Douglas Glatz wrote:

[snipped words of wisdom on current winmail.dat situ and an excellent
solution]

>OBTraveller: How do you suppose the Imperium handles software upgrades?  Is
the
>computer hardware OS-independant?  Is there one Megacorporation (Imperial
>Business Machines?) that cornered the starship computer market early in the
>Imperium's history that keeps the releases compatible?  Or is the software
you
>buy in one Sector going to be compatible with what you buy in another
Sector?


To my way of thinking, it's the differences that make the game sooo much
fuuuun.

I would think that if you work for or sell to the Imperium, that you would
be required to provide products that were compatable with Imperial
standards.  As stodgy as the Imperial types are, I would think that changes
would be very sssllllooooowwwwww.

In my campaign, the Imps have access to a great deal of ancient data and
warehouses full of artifacts.  As much as possible, they would design
Imperial Standards to be forward compatable with as much of this stuff as
they can.

OTOH, the people at large, will have to either conform to ImpStd or deal
with the kind of compatability problems we deal with.

>_________________________________________
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html
>
>Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
>__________________________________________


I quoted his signature for 3 reasons.  1.) so that you could see his address
again.  2.) So that I would be reminded to say thanks for the offer of
assistance.  and  3.) Because his saying applies to the situation quite
nicely.  The sword is the systems that opened the information superhiway and
Microsoft is the manufacturer of the information superhiway guns.

I liked the old days myself, but, I know that life is growth and adaptation.
It's what makes humans superior to all other species that I know of.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:36:46 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Silent Auction

Pat Connaught wrote:

>This is a direct copy of a passage from
>Robert Heinlein's novel "Citizen of the Galaxy"
>If anyone is interested.
>Very good book with some neat concepts

Pat is right, I misremembered the reference.  My point was about the auction
itself.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 98 05:21 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Fusion & HEPlaR

Moin Derek Wildstar,

>This was Marc's specific intent.

	ups, Marc is violating CT canon ? why that ? I've just managed
	to ask around for the HG limits and they say that the maximum
	size for TL:A is 10kdt, for TL:B 50kdt, for TL:C 100kdt and for
	TL:D 1Mdt. So any techlevel gives the advantage of building larger
	ships. Besides that old FFS was sufficient to limit minimum size
	for fighters. A RamPart was only posible at TL:15, lower techlevels
	will have 20dt as minimum effective size. Now the RamPart is posible
	at TL:C, which I cant call canon from MT references and TNE design.

	The new FFS2 minimum for fusion plants will also make ships like
	the TL:A-200dt Yacht imposible, which is a classical design.

Moin Ian or Katts,

> Now, this wouldnt be so much of a problem, except that the cheapest missile
> with other than a primitive engine one can build now costs MCr 2.5 with
> thruster plates and fusion plus, or MCr 2 with a hot fusion engine and
> Heplar. And thats before the warhead. Add in a nuke det laser warhead and
> you can add a megacredit to the price. Volume is 10m3 minimum for either
> the t-plates or the hot fusion plant, so a TL12 missile isnt going to get
> within cooo-eee of the half a displacement ton of a "standard shipboard
> missile".

	Ever thought about using solid rocket fuel, EAPLAC or similar
	drives for a missile.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:34:11 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Campaigns

> > I wonder how many players still use their own settings? I can think of
a
> > least three off the top of my head.
> Make that 4.  I still do this too.

Same here.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 22:15:10 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [TTL] HEPlaR

>Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:42:13 -0500
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Re: [TTL] HEPlaR

>At 09:08 AM 2/6/98 -0600, Andrew Akins wrote:
>>Making HEPlaR require fusion engine does limit the drive at lower tech
>>The problem is in the minimum size of fusion plants...
>>The idea of a TL10 fighter, for example, is pretty much out.

>This was Marc's specific intent.

>>I've been trying to design a small (100ton) TL10 starship, and it isn't
>>working out too well.

>Low-tech starships (below TL-11 or 12) will be big, not small, because of
>the minimum size of the fusion plant.

That, Sir I take as a challange :*>. I already have a number of small low
tech ships (a 100Td TL9 scout, a 200Td TL9 merchant etc.) I'm now about to
attack Mr Akins wonderful spreadsheet and come up with a TL9 fighter. The
trick is to use fusion rockets and Fission power.

(I'll post it just as soon as I figure out how to post a spreadsheet).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
We're digging a hole in the road, you can't go up, you can't go down
you'll have to wait to drive around
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 04:19:42 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: jump drives, canon and various

<various arguments about specifics of Jump drive snipped>
<engage rant mode>

    Well... there might be an obscure canon source that one can prove anything
from.  Kinda like bible lawyers.  If you want to find something hard enough
you're probably gonna going to find it.  Especially in something that's been
around as long as Traveller.
    Jump drive is supposed to take alot of fuel.  It's been long established
that noone has gone past Jump 6.  Somewhere it's been said that J7 is
impossible.  Some places just don't say anything about it at all.  It always
takes a week (plus a minor variation).  Some sources said there's Zuchai
crystals. Some don't mention em at all.  All that's important is that it
works.  :::insert your favorite handwave here::: 
    A babylon 5 like Hyperspace (also in Star Control 2) is popular now.  How
it works?  Who knows?  It looks cool, though.  If something is overdesigned
people are going to try and pick it apart, for various reasons.  Exactly what
happened w/ Virus.  People who know just enough to be dangerous say "nope
can't be done" when it's really just a lack of imagination.
     But Jump grids?  I started Traveller w/ TNE.  Don't need Jump grids,
though i'm kinda partial to the idea.  I've gathered various CT and MT
products.  I see no mention of jump grids in Supplement 9: Fighting Ships.( i
just managed to get a copy... : ) ).  Neat background info (why i got it) but
all the stats are pretty much worthless to me.  All of the MT mentions i've
seen are negligible except for the Starship Operators Manual.  I like the idea
of reactionless drives.  I'm not going to invalidate the rather extensive
collection of designs i have to put in jump grids or t-plates.  Most of em...
there's plenty of surface area leftover... but not always... especially on the
larger ships.  I can simply put T-plates at tl 17 or 18 or 19 where i think it
belongs.
     Unless someone puts together a "Traveller Writers Guide" things are going
to keep straying.  The toll of time puts all of these rare collectors items
that told all kinds of info about all kinds of thing are slowing going the way
of the dodo.  I don't think detailing every piece of Traveller hardware is a
good idea.  Computers, FTL, even STL thrust should remain vague, follow
science as we know it now as closely as possible until real high tech, and
make for a playable game. : )  3D would be nice, but how can someone model it
w/o bringing a computer along w/ em?  

<disengage rant mode>
Just my 2cr on various matters. : )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 04:19:44 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: jump drives

Harold wrote:

>>>Making HEPlaR require fusion engine does limit the drive at lower tech
>>levels (where, at least in a world with thruster plates, is the only place
>>it will be used...).

I don't think this should've ever been done.  Worse than TNE ditching T-
plates.  At least there were "hard sci-fi" motivations behind that.

>>The problem is in the minimum size of fusion plants...at TL 10, the smallest
>>fusion plant you can have is 1000MW. This makes designing small ships very
>>difficult (if not impossible). The idea of a TL10 fighter, for example, is
>>pretty much out.
>   The concept Marc wanted to put forth in "T4" was that the Third Imperium
>had a decisive advantage with "fusion plus".  One of the results of this is
>that they were able to build space fighters while their rivals could not.
>   IHMO, this was totally unnecessary, and complicates trying to write the
>history of earlier times (for example, how is it that both the Terran

I agree entirely. The MT Imperial Encyclopedia tells that Cleon eventually
ended up w/ control of the Sylean Federation.  Though his control, the
Federation increased in size until he didn't think it was suitable for his
needs anymore (ruling an Interstellar Empire). He claimed to be a lawful
successor of the first two Imperiums and laid claim to all their old
territory.  Then... being the biggest baddest guys around, they absorbed the
others.  There was no need for TAKAFP.  They came, they saw, they conquered.
Did they need a trick up their sleeve?  Not IMO.  Just a war machine,
motivation to use it, and resistance too weak to stand against them.  Canon
*didn't* say so either, but out of sight, out of mind.... : ) 

>Confederation and Vilani Imperium were able to construct space fighters
>during the Interstellar Wars? or were the counters provided in the game
>"Imperium" suppose to represent craft that were called 'fighters' but were
>much larger?) in addition to making small starship design a formidable task.

When Imperium was made, they didn't forsee IG. : )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 00:33:33 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@Alaska.NET>
Subject: Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

"Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com> wrote


> Del:
> > My reason that the imperium is 'flat' was quite
> > simply that a ship passing through jump space
> > could not reach stars above and below the 
> > galactic plane. Sub light craft could, but this
> > was not proven to be economical with the advent
> > of jump. I used a handwaving similar to one
> 
> I love this!  Now all we need is an Ancient device that will allow us to
> overcome the massive energy gradient to shift from one 2D plane to
> another... or better yet, misjump to another plane...  I think that this an
> outstanding explanation

If jumpspace is two dimensional and "ship passing through jump space
could not reach stars above and below the galactic plane." why is it
that in Traveller there are several examples of cultures who travelled a
long distance at sublight speeds through normal space but still ended up
in the Imperium (such as the sublight earth ships that colonized the
islands) ?

Are they just the ones who stayed in the plane of jump space ?

Maybe there are several cultures out there descended from sublight ships
that are presumed lost by the senders but which actually arrived quite
nicely.  Maybe these cultures are jealous and angry at the people who
live in the plane of space where they _can_ use jump space.  Perhaps one
of these cultures, which happens to be matriarchal, has sent out a
message that will destroy Imperial (& Zhodani first) society as we know
it.

We don't have any evidence for this sort of message do we ?

<ducks rapidly>

Conspiratorial Traveller is easy isn't it ?

"Of course the rules are immutable ... if that's the way you want them."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #111
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 7 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 112



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Cobra (TL9) Fighter
re:WINMAIL DAT
Re Flat Imperium
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Calling Rob Prior -
Imperium TL12 tech advantages Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #108
Re: chair dogs
Re: [TTL] HEPlaR
Re: Flat Campaigns
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: chair dogs
Re: jump drives, canon and various
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Why not go up and down? Was RE: Campaigns
Re: chair dogs
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: chair dogs
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fusion & HEPlaR
Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Sublight Starships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 01:39:18 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

I was wondering how life would be in the 24th century.  Let's say, for
the sake of arguement, that by then, personal nano-factories are
commonplace.  How would this affect world economics?  How would
terrorism be held in check?  Would nanobots be programmed against
fabricating dangerous weapons for sick individuals?

Also, would money fade as a source of wealth, to be replaced by
resources in this new baroque period?  Seeing how anyone could
'fabricate' what they want, the only things worth fighting over would be
the resources to feed their nanofactories.

What do you all think?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 23:16:55 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Cobra (TL9) Fighter

Okay, to prove it *can* be done (though the question remains wheither or
not it should be done), The Phoenix Corporation takes great pleasure in
presenting:

Cobra class Fighter (FF&S v2)
Designed by Anderw Moffatt-Vallance

Statistics
Tons: 30std (SL SR Cyl)    Crew: 1/2                  Cargo: 0std (0/0)
Volume: 420m3              Passengers High/Med: 0/0   Cost: 96.991 MCr
Mass (L/C): 359t/338t      Passengers Low: 0          Maintenance Points: 18
Dimensions: 13.3x6.6x6.6m  Troops/Science: 0/0        Tech Level: 9
Size: 7                    Frozen Watch: 0
Electronics
Controls:       Computer, High automation. 3xComp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0).
                Terrain following sensors (TF:390, NOE:130). No bridge.
Communications: 1xDir Radio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 2xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors:        1xSci Pas. Scanner (12.5 [1.6mkm] Sci, 0.01MW).
                1xSci AEMS (11 [.16mkm] Sci, 1MW).
                1xSci LIDAR (13.5 [50kkm] Sci, 0.2MW).
Signatures:     Vis:-1, IR:-0.5 (-0.5 at 1MW), Act:0, Neu:-1, Grav:-2

Weaponry                                 Performance
1 x Mis Turret 1/0 (Mag:3 MFD:500,000km) 0 Jump
  w/4 Command DetLaser1d6/2 6G12         2 Maneuver (Fusion:0MW,4.8 G-hours)
                                         1 Contra-grav (8MW)
                           3666kph/3556kph Atmosphere
                                         1 Power (Fis:11MW,1yr)
                          1000AU 0/0/0/0/0 Accomodations
                                         4 Life Sup. (Ty:St,Mn)
                                         0 G-Comp
                                      [20] Armor, 2 Structure
Features
1xAirlock
1xShip's locker (0.02std ea.)
1xArmory (0.07std ea.)

Crew Details
1xMnvr. 1xGunn.

The Cobra was created with Andrew Akins FF&S2 spreadsheet. All comments are
most welcome.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
We're digging a hole in the road, you can't go up, you can't go down
you'll have to wait to drive around
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 05:15:35 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re:WINMAIL DAT

You wrote:

>Hi folks:

Hi. 
>I have been getting a lot of WINMAIL.DAT interruptions of my digest.  
>With #107 I received two of them.
>Is this happening to anyone else?

Yup. and i don't like it either.

>I'm not sure who is doign it, but please make it stop!  It's making me 
>miss large hunks of the slang and Heplar debates.  (And everything else 
>between the cracks.)

You can get the missing digests by giving a get command to
majordomo@lists.mpgn.com w/ the appropriate command...(i.e.  get traveller-
digest v1998.n091) substituting the nXXX for whatever u want. : )

>Thanks a bunch,
>Niko

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:58:13 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re Flat Imperium

Peter Newman wrote
<<If jumpspace is two dimensional and "ship passing through jump space
could not reach stars above and below the galactic plane." why is it
that in Traveller there are several examples of cultures who travelled a
long distance at sublight speeds through normal space but still ended up
in the Imperium (such as the sublight earth ships that colonized the
islands) ?

Are they just the ones who stayed in the plane of jump space ?>>

My take on this isn't that cultures didn't do this, but that the majority
of systems are in the plane (+/- a few degrees). Systems do exist
'up' and 'down' there, but not too many. Targets for colonization
by Sub Light ships can be out there but with the onset of Jump,
and the fact that Jump can't reach them, they have become 'lost'
to the economic viewpoint of the Imperium. Any civilization colonizing
via sub-light travel, (in the plane) IMG, has done so long before the
current Imperium
and has now absorbed the jump technology, effectively cutting themselves
off from their 'relatives' out of the galactic plane. While I would say
that
journeys to these worlds are possible via SLT, they are few and far between
'cos of the length of the journey and the costs. Maybe a few isolationist
cultures still do them.

I take it your references to this matriarchal society are something to do
with
this Empress Wave that people talk about. I don't claim to know too much
about this as it isn't relevant to my campaign (MT) as it stands. (I stuck
with
MT : after doing so much work with it, I was loathe to change my game just
because the game company changed it's plans- it's MY game after all!)

Live long, have FUN

Del

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
dojones@whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:45:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>Carriers are the new wave of ship-to-ship warfare, just ask the japanese
>who thought they had eliminated our naval power in the pacific theatre
>of world war II by sinking our capital ships in Peral Harobor, while our
>carriers were out on manuevers.  With only carrier and a small handful
>of capital ships left, the US Navy was forced to do a paradigm-shift
>about how naval battle was to be conducted, and found out there is a
>distinct advantage in Carrier vs Capital ship.  Carriers cost less, they
>are faster and more manueverable, and can strike from a safe distance.
>
>This has been debated in the Wing Commander books as well, with the
>Kilrathi dealing a deadly first blow to the Human Confederation because
>the humans believed Capital ships were the end-all of warfare.

Check out the TML archives from about 12 to 18 months ago where there was a
long (and hot) thread on fighters, which suggested that the technology
proposed made them non-viable against capital ships, as they had to fly
into the definite kill zone of laser batteries. Against smaller vessels and
pirates the balance moves in the fighter's favour.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:10:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Calling Rob Prior -

Apologies for bandwith waste -

Rob,

Your email is giving delayed messages again. Can you give me the email
address of you system supervisor to wind him up...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:38:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Imperium TL12 tech advantages Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #108

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:

>PS You also dont need Fusion Plus for grav tanks etc - use explosive power
>generators or Chemical Laser Cartridges for the main armament, and 10 MW of
>fission plant power a lot of contragrav modules.

If you are using CSC VDS rules (ie those in Infini-V) it does make a
significant difference; the lower tech solutions are bulkier and (certainly
in the case of MHD turbines) more costly.

I discovered this when designing an APC for a planned BITS book.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:25:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:

>Herbert actually vetted the script and final film, and apparently felt it
>was a good job.

Wasn't the film cut from something like 8 hours, and the ending changed?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:14:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [TTL] HEPlaR

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu> wrote:

>   The concept Marc wanted to put forth in "T4" was that the Third Imperium
>had a decisive advantage with "fusion plus".  One of the results of this is
>that they were able to build space fighters while their rivals could not.
>
>   IHMO, this was totally unnecessary, and complicates trying to write the
>history of earlier times (for example, how is it that both the Terran
>Confederation and Vilani Imperium were able to construct space fighters
>during the Interstellar Wars? or were the counters provided in the game
>"Imperium" suppose to represent craft that were called 'fighters' but were
>much larger?) in addition to making small starship design a formidable task.

Perhaps the 'fighters' were more like the smaller riderships described by
CJ Cherryh in Downbelow Station and Hellburner.

Dom
(waving hands enthusiatically)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:16:35 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

> If they don't like that, I say, "Hey lighten up, it's only a game."


I totally agree with this, but it just bugs me.  I'll create a
demonstration ofmy proposal eventually and post it on someone's web
page.

Realized 3D really does make the universe different and seem more like
space.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 05:02:34 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> Check out the TML archives from about 12 to 18 months ago where there was a
> long (and hot) thread on fighters, which suggested that the technology
> proposed made them non-viable against capital ships, as they had to fly
> into the definite kill zone of laser batteries. Against smaller vessels and
> pirates the balance moves in the fighter's favour.
> 
> Dom


Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with longer-ranged
missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.  You'd want
them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after you!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 05:03:40 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

> Wasn't the film cut from something like 8 hours, and the ending changed?
> 
> Dom
> 

Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel played
it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie make
more sense.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:19:56 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: jump drives, canon and various

3D would be nice, but how can someone model it
> w/o bringing a computer along w/ em?
>

On paper, with transparency overlays to see below/above, or with a high
res isometric star cubed showing numbered xyz coords for each system.

One neat idea is to image the cube in 3D(red/green) and include 3D
glasses.  That would really make it 3 dimensional, if necessitating a
headache.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:45:00 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> >This has been debated in the Wing Commander books as well, with the
> >Kilrathi dealing a deadly first blow to the Human Confederation because
> >the humans believed Capital ships were the end-all of warfare.
> 


> Check out the TML archives from about 12 to 18 months ago where there was a
> long (and hot) thread on fighters, which suggested that the technology
> proposed made them non-viable against capital ships, as they had to fly
> into the definite kill zone of laser batteries. Against smaller vessels and
> pirates the balance moves in the fighter's favour.
> 

I like the rational behind this second argument.  

Fighters rely on speed and high maneuverability, and are consequently
lightweight and low armor units.  The comparison to WW2 is useful, but
aircraft operate in a 3rd dimension not truly accessible to ships. 

An analogy is that you are a flatlander (from the spinward marches) and
have to maneuver on your spinward marches map (2D)to avoid the 3
dimensional predator stalking you.  The predator can swoop down(from
jumpspace?) on you an move in a way you can't(up to J6!), giving it a
decisive advantage.

The "power" in airpower really has very little to do with a fighter's
maneuverabliity.  It has everything to do with taking advantage of a 3rd
dimentsion not usable by the enemy, be they sea or ground forces.

This advantage disappears in Trav.  Batteries of DE weapons/repulsors
kill fighters and neutralize missiles before they get close,and these
ships have the armor to take the punsishment should they get hit.  Ships
all operate in the same medium and dimensions.  Except some ships have
very long range weapons, tons of power and great sensors.  Others have
relatively poor sensors, a laser and a couple of missiles, and a pilot.  

I think I know which will win.

Nevertheless in massed attacks a well trained fighter formations will
act as a weapons batteries, inflicting systemic damage and possibly a
statistically lucky kill.  This alone, and the need to counter the
enemies fighters, will make fleets have substatial carrier wings.

Real world info:  as a pilot the worst thing I can think of is trying to
attack an armed warship.  It can reach out to outside my weapons range
and deliver enormous firepower onto me. One hit and I'm dead.  
Within 15 years these ships will be mounting higher power weapons and
maybe lasers, making things tougher still.  I do not see this trend
reversing as we move into space.  The only thing a big seaship has
against it is that it is a sitting duck.  (ie 1 Exocet = The Stark)

As for the Kilrathi, it is easy to write a story.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:47:40 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Why not go up and down? Was RE: Campaigns

Yeah.  Simplifications are made to make the game playable.  I used a
system like this for awhile, but it is unfriendly to J1-J6 drives due to
the 3rd D adding range to jump distances.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 08:00:18 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: chair dogs

> Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel played
> it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie make
> more sense.

I'd like to see this.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:59:36 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with longer-ranged
> missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.  You'd want
> them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after you!


Long range missiles with ECM are long range targets.  The only reason
sea skimming missiles get a shot against phanlanx guns today is due to
poor radar pickup at low alt.  In space this advantage will go away.  

We watch baseballs and smaller in orbit today.

My argument is that the master fire directors of warships will be more
than enough to neutralize anything but batteries of missiles. 
Statistically a single shot may occasionally work.  (Never say never.)

I suppose my assumptions are based on the speed of light arguement:with
computers operating and killing one shot targets at roughly the rate at
which they are aquired, that is going to add up to a lot of fighters and
missiles.

Another reason aircraft were the main weapons in WW2 and on was the
plane functioned as a much longer "gun" for the carrier than the
battleships main guns.  This is not as true today or in 5600.

I really feel combined forces are the way to go here: a lot of capital
ships with large fighter screens.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 06:08:55 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
> 
> > Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel played
> > it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie make
> > more sense.
> 
> I'd like to see this.

Well, send me an 8 hour tape and I'll see what I can do..:)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 06:14:58 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> Nevertheless in massed attacks a well trained fighter formations will
> act as a weapons batteries, inflicting systemic damage and possibly a
> statistically lucky kill.  This alone, and the need to counter the
> enemies fighters, will make fleets have substatial carrier wings.
> 
> Real world info:  as a pilot the worst thing I can think of is trying to
> attack an armed warship.  It can reach out to outside my weapons range
> and deliver enormous firepower onto me. One hit and I'm dead.  
> Within 15 years these ships will be mounting higher power weapons and
> maybe lasers, making things tougher still.  I do not see this trend
> reversing as we move into space.  The only thing a big seaship has
> against it is that it is a sitting duck.  (ie 1 Exocet = The Stark)
> 
> As for the Kilrathi, it is easy to write a story.
> 


Hmmm.  Some very good points I cannot debate.  I had figured a mass of
fighters could launch shipkillers from out of capital weapons range, but
you'd need thousands of fighters to guarantee a kill.  With the capital
ships weapons having all the range they need, you'd sacrifice a lot of
fighters to get that kill.

Ok.  Scenario #2 :

Have long range capital ships bearing huge missle batteries attack
first, at long distance.  These ships b\need not be more then mobile
starbases, heavily shielded and armored.  Then you'd have other capital
ships for close-in fighting with carriers for support and raids.  How
does this sound?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:06:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion & HEPlaR

 
> 	The new FFS2 minimum for fusion plants will also make ships like
> 	the TL:A-200dt Yacht imposible, which is a classical design.
 
I'd think it would be possible to build something at a lower TL one
you know it can be done and have seen it. Like getting a TV repaired
at a small shop in India when you know that they could never build a
TV from scratch there (in the shop, not India :-).

I think technology transfer needs to be modeled some way--a JTAS
article about it would be cool. The whole TL thing is a recurrent
thread and this comes up. So maybe the typical TL A yacht requires
outsourced parts (like the PP).

Technically, though you are right, 36% of the ship for a PP might
scrag the design. Think, though, about a place at TL A with no
outside contacts. Would they have yachts at that TL anyway? Do we
have any SR-71 capable planes tied down at the local airport next to
the Cessnas? (and the SR-71 isn't even current tech).

My point is that the only time I bet you start seeing yachts on a
TL10 world is when there are higher TLs around anyway.

> > Now, this wouldnt be so much of a problem, except that the cheapest missile
> > with other than a primitive engine one can build now costs MCr 2.5 with
> > thruster plates and fusion plus, or MCr 2 with a hot fusion engine and
> > Heplar. And thats before the warhead. Add in a nuke det laser warhead and
> > you can add a megacredit to the price. Volume is 10m3 minimum for either
> > the t-plates or the hot fusion plant, so a TL12 missile isnt going to get
> > within cooo-eee of the half a displacement ton of a "standard shipboard
> > missile".
 
> 	Ever thought about using solid rocket fuel, EAPLAC or similar
> 	drives for a missile.

That's what they should be. And on purpose. A T-plate missile is
very, very dangerous. The whole idea was they they should be very
expensive--too expensive, in fact. Missiles in traveller haven't
been t-plates before (the Missiles Supplement from the old JTAS
doesn't mention them :-)


- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:47:00 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...

I wrote on TML:

>David Reed wrote:
>
>>Anyone care to re-ignite the linguistic purity debates for Vilani, Solomani,
>>or Anglic?  Kenji?  Heh.
>
>Vilani is essentially Sumerian spoken by the IRS.
>
>Zhodani is essentially Lushootseed spoken by Poles.
>
>Tezlodh is essentially Arabic spoken by Sindarin.
>
>Trokh is essentially Hawai'ian spoken by Klingons.

[etc.; snip]

Realized this is sort of a ling-geek in-joke.  To become part of the secret
club, and learn what various languages essentially are, check out:

                http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/essential.html

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:22:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 
> The "power" in airpower really has very little to do with a fighter's
> maneuverabliity.  It has everything to do with taking advantage of a 3rd
> dimentsion not usable by the enemy, be they sea or ground forces.
 
Actually, I don't agree. Speed (here on earth) is the reason. WW2
surface ships attack each other with guns, and aircraft as well.
Being up doesn't protect you from CPR guns. Speed and range are the
key. In space you get neither. (which you point out below, I'm
talking about the wet-navy stuff :-) Lets say not totally, 3d helps
some in the ww2 setting, less and less since. As you get farther
past ww2 speed domintaes more and more as the main plius, IMO.

> This advantage disappears in Trav.  Batteries of DE weapons/repulsors
> kill fighters and neutralize missiles before they get close,and these
> ships have the armor to take the punsishment should they get hit.  Ships
> all operate in the same medium and dimensions.  Except some ships have
> very long range weapons, tons of power and great sensors.  Others have
> relatively poor sensors, a laser and a couple of missiles, and a pilot.  
 
Yup. They key for space stuff is that fighters are not faster, they
are likely to not even accelerate as fast as a big ship. And if you
want to get nitty gritty about speed, big ships can probably go
faster relative to dust, etc. in system because they have more armor
(and there is duration at thrust, and so on).

> Nevertheless in massed attacks a well trained fighter formations will
> act as a weapons batteries, inflicting systemic damage and possibly a
> statistically lucky kill.  This alone, and the need to counter the
> enemies fighters, will make fleets have substatial carrier wings.
 
I think so. Look at the TL15 Imperial fighters--they are 50 dtons
with a crew of 2. These can carry a bunch of missiles, and have a
laser turret. They can attack bigger ships with the missiles, and
act as an anti-missile screen as well (and away from the mother ship
to thin out the attack) with the turret.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:26:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 
> My argument is that the master fire directors of warships will be more
> than enough to neutralize anything but batteries of missiles. 
> Statistically a single shot may occasionally work.  (Never say never.)
 
True, and because one might work, they get used sometimes. As a
result the defenses against them get built.

> I suppose my assumptions are based on the speed of light arguement:with
> computers operating and killing one shot targets at roughly the rate at
> which they are aquired, that is going to add up to a lot of fighters and
> missiles.
 
And a mission kill on same can just be knocking out the
sensors--which in the case of a missile have to be pointed at the
target. This makes them pretty easy to kill. You can armor the
missile, but not the IR sensor in the nose pointed right at the PD
laser. Blind the missile and it misses.

> I really feel combined forces are the way to go here: a lot of capital
> ships with large fighter screens.
 
Yeah. Screen is the key word, IMO. It allows for a pile of small
beam weapons a distance closer to the enemy for killing missiles,
etc.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:30:58 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, J-Man wrote:

> Carriers are the new wave of ship-to-ship warfare, just ask the japanese
> who thought they had eliminated our naval power in the pacific theatre
> of world war II by sinking our capital ships in Peral Harobor, while our
> carriers were out on manuevers. 

Well, not to re-ignite the Japanese naval theory discussion, but they knew
damn well the value of the carriers and it was pure dumb luck on our part
and bad intel on theirs that the carriers were'nt at Pearl when they
attacked. In fact, the carriers were one of their primary objectives.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:32:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 
> Have long range capital ships bearing huge missle batteries attack
> first, at long distance.  These ships b\need not be more then mobile
> starbases, heavily shielded and armored.  Then you'd have other capital
> ships for close-in fighting with carriers for support and raids.  How
> does this sound?
 
Possible. The far off ships don't need the armor, etc. if they are
never meant to close with the enemy and mix it up.

You'd have some "normal" mix of big ships. CAs with big weapons, but
less armor--best drives you can put on them. Some lower accel
(perhaps) BBs with similar weaponry, but more armor/screens/etc.

Fighters would be thrown out in between you and the main enemy
force. Their missiles might be massed against big targets, or use
them to pick off small escorts. Their beam weapons work on missiles
launched against your fleet from long range (kind of predigesting
them for your real escorts).

Battle Riders are just fighters big enough to take on capital ships,
BTW. So you have "fighters" that go from little screening guys to
small Destroyed sized ones, to CA sized ones.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:48:49 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Sublight Starships

I had to rework my notes a bit, but here's a draft of some rules to 
cover sublight starship design.  No Bussard ramjets, no laser sails;
just using maneuver drives and a lot of gas.  As I recall, exhaust
velocity figures are based on FFS1 fuel consumption figures.  Since
they're fairly critical to the final result, they should probably
be double-checked for accuracy.  I'd love to hear any comments or
feedback.

  -- Steve Bonneville
  
 -------------------------------------------

Prior to the invention of jump drive, travel between the distant stars 
required epic voyages at slower-than-light speeds through normal space.
The technical challenges of such a flight are daunting, and it is not
until efficient fusion reaction drives are developed at tech-9 that the
construction of these sublight or "STL" starships becomes feasible.

Even once it becomes possible, many species don't have the drive, the
desire, or the patience to engage in this form of starflight.  It is
known that the Vargr, for example, were not able to mount the combined
effort required to engage in STL travel before they developed the jump
drive.  Remarkably, several human subspecies have engaged in sublight
interstellar travel, including the Vilani and Solomani; the Suerrat 
built STL starships and used them to colonize and maintain an "empire" 
of twenty-some worlds before being contacted by early Vilani explorers.

These vessels are primitive by modern standards.  An STL starship is 
nothing more than a fusion rocket, a lot of fuel, and a small payload
which is everything else (power, cargo, crew, controls, and so on). 
A typical ship operated by the Triad on the Vland-Tauri run traveled
at an average velocity of one-tenth of lightspeed (30 Mm/s), taking
over twenty years to make a crossing that today takes only one week.

For this reason, few STL starships are seen in the modern era.  Some
species, such as the Jgd-ll-Jagd of Lishun sector, suffer from extreme
forms of hyperspace sickness and are unable or unwilling to use jump
drives.  Some ships still exist that are relics of the early stages of
interstellar exploration, and are museums or static bases today.  And,
out on the fringes, in far distant backwaters, tales are told of lost
Solomani expeditions which still use these ships as the only means of
travel from star to star.

DESIGNING THE SUBLIGHT STARSHIP

In order to design a slower-than-light starship for Traveller, you'll
need a calculator which can find hyperbolic tangents ("tanh", or using
"hyp" and "tan" keys), natural logarithms ("ln"), and square roots.

Any Traveller design system can be used.  The only restriction is that
it must be possible to calculate the fueled mass and unfueled mass of
your starship from the design.

The key idea is to design a starship which can reach the highest speed
possible.  A sublight starship should accelerate slowly but steadily,
coast at high speed for years, and turn over to decelerate to a stop.
Carrying enough fuel tankage to reach a high speed is of much greater
importance than a high acceleration.  A one-gee drive (or less!) will
be sufficient, but the ship will probably need to be at least ninety
percent LHyd fuel by volume.

Provision should be made for the fact that passengers and crew will be
aboard for years at a time.  Ample living and recreational space must
be provided, as well as sick bays and repair shops.  Consider using a
streamlined hull if you intend to refuel and reuse the ship after it
arrives at it's destination.  Very fast sublight vessels may also be
streamlined to reduce the erosive effects of interstellar dust.

CALCULATION OF CRUISING SPEED

First, we need to find the "mass ratio" of the ship.  This is simply
the ship's fueled and loaded mass, divided by the unfueled but loaded
mass.  

  EXAMPLE.  The _Voyageur_ masses five million metric tonnes when 
  fully loaded with LHyd maneuvering fuel.  Of this, the fuel has
  a mass of three million metric tonnes; unfueled, _Voyageur_ has 
  a mass of two million metric tonnes.  Therefore, the mass ratio
  for _Voyageur_ is 5/2 or 2.5.
  
Next, we need to find the "exhaust velocity", the speed at which fuel 
leaves the drive as a fraction of lightspeed.  This is based on fuel 
efficiency of the drive technology used.  For the standard drives in 
the Traveller starship design rules, these are:

  Fusion Rocket  (TL 9):     0.3185
  Daedalus Drive (TL 9):     0.3327    
  HEPlaR         (TL 10):    0.1332
  Thrusters      (TL 11):    1.0*

  No drive may have an exhaust velocity greater than 1.0.
  * Thrusters are a special case.  See below.
  
  [NOTE.  If fusion rocket fuel consumption is changed to be ten
   times as fast as given in first edition FFS, then use 0.0336 
   instead of 0.3185.]

Given the exhaust velocity and mass ratio of the ship, we can find her 
coasting speed as a fraction of lightspeed.  If mass ratio is R and 
exhaust velocity is E, then

  coasting speed == tanh ( E * ln ( sqrt ( R ) ) )
  
  EXAMPLE.  _Voyageur_ has a mass ratio of 2.5 and uses a Fusion
  Rocket (exhaust velocity of 0.3185 lightspeed).  Therefore,
      coasting speed == tanh ( 0.3185 ln ( sqrt ( 2.5 ) ) ) 
                     == 0.146 lightspeed
                   
If the ship is not intended to slow down at the end of the trip (for
instance is a robotic probe that will fly through the system with dry
tanks at full speed, radio survey data home, and then be lost forever), 
don't take the square root of the mass ratio.

THRUSTERS

Thrusters are tech-11 reactionless engines that lose effectiveness at
distances greater than 1000 diameters from the largest nearby mass, and
so aren't suitable for deep-space operation.  In some cases, this isn't
an issue as the gravity wells of the stars at both ends of the trip are
large enough that the ship can reach cruising speed before it leaves the
system, and has enough room to brake at the end of the trip.  Otherwise,
thrusters are used primarily as high-efficiency boosters in-system, and
reaction engines take over in deep space.

The only species that use thrusters in sublight starship design either
cannot use jump drive for physiological or psychological reasons (as
the Jgdi) or have achieved advanced levels of technology but haven't
stumbled on the secret of the jump drive (perhaps the Suerrat before
contact by the Vilani).

As most sublight starships are not technologically advanced enough to
have thrusters, further discussion of this topic is beyond the scope of
this article.

RELATIVISTIC EFFECTS

"Gamma" is the factor by which time appears to be compressed for 
crew of a starship relative to the world they left.  If V is the
cruising speed of the starship as a fraction of lightspeed, then 

  gamma == 1 / sqrt ( 1 - V^2 )
                  
Divide the amount of time the trip appears to take on the world they
left by gamma to find the amount of time the trip appears to take to
the starship crew.

  EXAMPLE.  _Voyageur_ has a cruising speed of 0.146 lightspeed.
  Her gamma is (1 / sqrt ( 1 - 0.146^2 )) == 1.01.  A one hundred
  year trip on _Voyageur_ would take only 100/1.01 == 99 years 
  from the perspective of the crew.  (Incidentally, in that time
  the ship would travel 14.6 light-years, or 4.5 parsecs).
  
RECORDING THE RESULTS

When the design is completed, the cruising speed, gamma, acceleration
fully fueled and acceleration unfueled should be recorded on the data
sheet for the ship for later reference.
 
  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #112
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 7 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 113



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: Ghostwriters (was Chairdogs)
Re: Heplar
Re: Drawing questions
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Flat Campaigns
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fifth Frontier Wars Algorithms for Squadron Development
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fusion & HEPlaR
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Traveller 4.1 Hardcover
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:48:48 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

J-Man writes:

>> Well, let me start by saying why we use them today.  They are
>> comparatively 
>> cheap compared to the price of a ship and can carry armament that can
>> effectively "mission-kill" most capital ships in existence today.
>
>Carriers are the new wave of ship-to-ship warfare, just ask the japanese
>who thought they had eliminated our naval power in the pacific theatre
>of world war II by sinking our capital ships in Peral Harobor, while our
>carriers were out on manuevers.

   Yamato knew better.  He hoped that he could force the American
carriers into a decisive fight later on, but sooner rather than later,
because if he didn't the Americans would use their superior numbers and
manufacturing capabilities to wear Japan down to dust.

>With only carrier and a small handful
>of capital ships left, the US Navy was forced to do a paradigm-shift
>about how naval battle was to be conducted, and found out there is a
>distinct advantage in Carrier vs Capital ship.  Carriers cost less, they
>are faster and more manueverable, and can strike from a safe distance.

   That paradigm-shift was well under way in 1941, Pearl Harbor merely
accelerated the process.  

   There are those "historians" (and I use the term loosely since most
of them are fiction writers with PhDs), who claim that the Americans had
already concluded that battleships were obsolete and thus left theirs
like sitting ducks at Pearl knowing that the Japanese were on their way
to attack.  The theory (ficition) goes that Roosevelt wanted the
Japanese raid to be a spectacular success (lot of large obsolete ships
getting blown up and lots of obsolete fighters destroyed on the ground)
so that there wouldn't be any question about him being able to declare
war on all the Axis powers (turns out Hitler declared war on the US
anyway) and that the American people, because of the "disaster at Pearl
Harbor" would be behind whatever decisions he made regarding the
prosecution of the war.

   It's a wonderful conspiracy theory, too bad the facts say
otherwise...

>This has been debated in the Wing Commander books as well, with the
>Kilrathi dealing a deadly first blow to the Human Confederation because
>the humans believed Capital ships were the end-all of warfare.

   If fighters can be built in sufficent quantity and they can deliver a
*killing* blow to a capital vessel, then they are feisable as weapons
for a fleet, thus so are carriers.  Economic practicality is of course
another matter and would require further analysis.  Fighters are always
practical and economical as scouts, thus they will always exist in some
form.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:45:10 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Economic practicality is of course
> another matter and would require further analysis.  Fighters are always
> practical and economical as scouts, thus they will always exist in some
> form.
>

Absolutely. Fighters are invaluable but I do think they will be less and
less so in line combat if armor and directed weapons range again become
important.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:16:31 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:58 pm 2/4/98 PST, you wrote:
>> But then a nasty competitor might feed you faulty data.  But
of 
>> course, that would probably be against the law.  Hooks, hooks,

>> hooks, everywhere I look are hooks.
>
>In any scheme like that you'd identify all data with a *source*.
And if
>you got data from several sources, you'd store all of it, and
offer the
>user the option of deciding which source to trust if they
differ.

	More than just having it identified with a source, there'd be
some way of
*authenticating* that it came from its alleged source. So the
IISS would
"sign" updates it provides, using the 57th century equivalent to
public key
crypto. Much the same way this message is authenticated as having
come from
me, for example.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNNyI0aQHFcepsd35AQGACQP/eLz6E18A7HcXKndBwAIANHvoVNaddwBU
56F3QAu2axHXywrFe5RVNsJBhlDC3V2FS0cSNy6+IqNnRyhsXySnfnR3EO9eoPcz
A17MUo2a5OdFog0lCr7Vi6qX2//JvfofUbUYR0j6lt6RVQhGFX6Da2AcRuj8FYbg
P2/3XmJ+uTo=
=C67n
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:18:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ghostwriters (was Chairdogs)

At 07:06 am 2/5/98, you wrote:
>Moin Sam Thomas,
>
>	the product announced here, can be found on any second ftp
server.
>
>> >> > And I wish Herbert would write more stories in this
series.  N.B.
>> >> He will probably not write any more stories - he is dead.
>> >Never stopped Asimov, Hubbard, Tolkien, etc
>> Don't forget the Greatest of the *Ghost* Writers!!!!!!!!!
>> Drums Please, Trumpet Fanfare, Pipers Please
>
>Regarding Ghostscript: I hate to say this to you but I've
already
>implemented a Ghostscript interpreter. I'm happy to see that
someone else
>has recognized the need dead people have for computers. I have
included an
>example of the output of my Ghostscript at the end of this
letter.

	Hate to be the wet rag, but there is already a published program
called GhostScript. It's a postscript simulator for PCs without
postscript printers...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:26:48 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Heplar

At 10:24 pm 2/5/98, you wrote:
>Now, when I say space vehicles, I am including missiles.

	Marc very specifically wanted no feasible spacecraft much below
100Td prior to TL10. Part of the advantage the Sylean
Federation/3I was supposed to have was the ability to make
practical space fighters with which to ... "invite" ... worlds to
join.

>This is silly. If you can have a plasma gun at TL10, you can
have a plasma
>gun pointing aft to provide thrust with it's recoil. At it's
simplest,
>thats what Heplar seems to be.

	Your plasma gun is several orders of magnitude less powerful
than HEPlaR. That's like saying because you can have a
blunderbuss at TL4, you should be able to create a mass driver
propulsion system (which, incidentally, is something I'd still
like to add ...).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:39:53 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Drawing questions

At 09:02 pm 2/5/98, you wrote:
>Hy Folks,
>
>	the old jump drive was 2/3 drive and 1/3 HPG, the new one has
>	additional Grid Area = Total Hull Area * 0.005 * (2+Jump) for
>	the grid. Question: How thick is this grid.
>
>	This is important for the size of the engine room of course.

	The hull grid is spread out over the surface of the entire ship,
and the actual volume of the *grid* (not the rest of the drive)
can be assumed negligible and included within the hull itself. It
just occupies surface area.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:51:39 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

J-Man wrote:
> 
> > Nevertheless in massed attacks a well trained fighter formations will
> > act as a weapons batteries, inflicting systemic damage and possibly a
> > statistically lucky kill.  This alone, and the need to counter the
> > enemies fighters, will make fleets have substatial carrier wings.
> >
> > Real world info:  as a pilot the worst thing I can think of is trying to
> > attack an armed warship.  It can reach out to outside my weapons range
> > and deliver enormous firepower onto me. One hit and I'm dead.
> > Within 15 years these ships will be mounting higher power weapons and
> > maybe lasers, making things tougher still.  I do not see this trend
> > reversing as we move into space.  The only thing a big seaship has
> > against it is that it is a sitting duck.  (ie 1 Exocet = The Stark)
> >
> > As for the Kilrathi, it is easy to write a story.
> >
> 
> Hmmm.  Some very good points I cannot debate.  I had figured a mass of
> fighters could launch shipkillers from out of capital weapons range, but
> you'd need thousands of fighters to guarantee a kill.  With the capital
> ships weapons having all the range they need, you'd sacrifice a lot of
> fighters to get that kill.
> 
> Ok.  Scenario #2 :
> 
> Have long range capital ships bearing huge missle batteries attack
> first, at long distance.  These ships b\need not be more then mobile
> starbases, heavily shielded and armored.  Then you'd have other capital
> ships for close-in fighting with carriers for support and raids.  How
> does this sound?


Sounds like an asteroid monitor to me.  Nothing like sending your
battleships in and getting unloaded on by 10,000 Factor A nuclear
missile batteries.

It isn't fun being a manned missile pilot in the Imperium.  Sure they
get all the Vid coverage and the movies all depict them as the ultimate
hero, but they die fast.  BTW, So does everyone else in fleet
engagements.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:59:45 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
> > The "power" in airpower really has very little to do with a fighter's
> > maneuverabliity.  It has everything to do with taking advantage of a 3rd
> > dimentsion not usable by the enemy, be they sea or ground forces.
> 
> Actually, I don't agree. Speed (here on earth) is the reason. WW2
> surface ships attack each other with guns, and aircraft as well.
> Being up doesn't protect you from CPR guns. Speed and range are the
> key. In space you get neither. (which you point out below, I'm
> talking about the wet-navy stuff :-) Lets say not totally, 3d helps
> some in the ww2 setting, less and less since. As you get farther
> past ww2 speed domintaes more and more as the main plius, IMO.
> 



I think what you are saying is the long range to deliver ordnance is
what is important, functioning as longer range artillery.  

What I mean by 3D envelopment is the maneuverablity and speed to react 
against an enemy in an axis he can't work in.  Note that missiles change
this arrangement and are much feared by any trained aviator.  Especially
Russian missiles and the new AMRAAM.

BTW, Remember those nice pictures of the Kamikaze in the Leyte Gulf? 
How fun do you think it is to fly into a porcupine to deliver your
ordnance? That is Trav space combat for a fighter, except the defenses
are lasers, repulsors, sand and missiles.  Not fun.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:32:54 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

J-Man wrote:

>Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with longer-ranged
>missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.  You'd want
>them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after you!

What's an IFF tag?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:05:36 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 11:32 am 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>J-Man wrote:
>
>>Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with
longer-ranged
>>missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.
You'd want
>>them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after
you!
>
>What's an IFF tag?

	Identification Friend/Foe--special encrypted info usually added
to transponders so's you can tell the difference ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:06:02 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> are faster and more manueverable, and can strike from a safe distance.
> 
> This has been debated in the Wing Commander books as well, with the
> Kilrathi dealing a deadly first blow to the Human Confederation because
> the humans believed Capital ships were the end-all of warfare.

Thanks for responding.

Actually, the "new wave" of carrier warfare is over.  The new wave is
actually the submarine.  Carriers still exist today because of their 
capability to project power, primarily ashore.  nevertheless the carrier
is a considerable package if unopposed.  Also, it was not the carrier
that brought Japan's war effort to its knees, it was the combination of
unrestricted US submarine warfare against their shipping and the bombing
campaign.

My point within the context of the game is that at higher TL's when
Capital
ship size becomes very large, fighters lack the ability to impact
capital
ship operations and are therefore insignificant.  Ony when a fighter can 
carry a weapon which can significantly harm a large ship does it become
a significant player in the battle.  That is the case today (TL7-8) but
not
at TL 15, possibly not at TL12 either.  It depends on ship size.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:13:02 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> What's with all this hand waving about the flat maps.  When the players ask
> why they are flat, I say, "Because this is a 2 dimensional representation of
> the 3 dimensional reality."
> 
> If they don't like that, I say, "Hey lighten up, it's only a game."

Hi Richard,

Sorry to say that I disagree, simply because many of us (like my brother
and I) 
wish for Trav to continue on as the preeminent game of science fiction, 
not science fantasy.  The science is important to me, and if we are
willing
to expend tremendous effort to decide why jump drives use so much
hydrogen,
(a question which can only result in speculation at best, although
interesting speculation) and we publish books about how to accurately
and
realistically design future hardware, then we should at least accurately
depict the local region of the galaxy.  We can...We should.

All of Trav's basic sociology and astropolitics are based on a hill of
sand if we don't get this right.  It matters.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:40:57 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> J-Man wrote:
> 
> >Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with longer-ranged
> >missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.  You'd want
> >them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after you!
> 
> What's an IFF tag?


IFF = Identify, Friend or Foe.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:23:48 +0000
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@m9.sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier Wars Algorithms for Squadron Development

I would love to see a re-release of that game!


> Dom:
> 
> The gist of the methods was to take the TL, the number of SDB squadrons
> available and the starport type (A or B) and build a squadron assigned to
> the world for its defense or the Imperium's use.  There were trade offs to
> be made, and like the FFW rules, a certain order of building occurred.  The
> values, Attack, Bombardment and Defense were almost assignable as to the
> number of capital ships, "fighter" squadrons and escort squadrons.  I'm in
> the process of digging things out until I get permission from Marc.
> 
> At 23:57 2/4/98 +0000, you wrote:
> 
************************************************************************
tsykoduk@bigfoot.com                    http://www.bigfoot.com/~tsykoduk

Thought for the day:
    Intuition (n): an uncanny sixth sense which tells people 
    that they are right, whether they are or not.

************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:22:54 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

J-Man wrote:
> 
> > Check out the TML archives from about 12 to 18 months ago where there was a
> > long (and hot) thread on fighters, which suggested that the technology
> > proposed made them non-viable against capital ships, as they had to fly
> > into the definite kill zone of laser batteries. Against smaller vessels and
> > pirates the balance moves in the fighter's favour.
> >
> > Dom
> 
> Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with longer-ranged
> missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.  You'd want
> them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after you!

The missiles still would lack the power to inflict significant damage
unless used in large numbers (1000's? 100's?).  The reason the IJN
was able to make the Pearl Harbor attack was due to their development
of the "Long Lance" oxygen torpedo, the preeminent weapon of its type
and time, specifically designed to destroy capital ships sitting at
rest in Pearl. ISYN.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:28:59 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 08:58 pm 2/4/98 PST, you wrote:
>>> But then a nasty competitor might feed you faulty data. 
>>> But of course, that would probably be against the law. 
>>> Hooks, hooks, hooks, everywhere I look are hooks.
>>
>>In any scheme like that you'd identify all data with a 
>>*source*.  And if you got data from several sources, 
>>you'd store all of it, and offer the user the option of 
>>deciding which source to trust if they differ.
>
> More than just having it identified with a source, there'd 
>be some way of *authenticating* that it came from its 
>alleged source. So the IISS would "sign" updates it 
>provides, using the 57th century equivalent to public key
>crypto. Much the same way this message is authenticated 
>as having come from me, for example.
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBNNyI0aQHFcepsd35AQGACQP/eLz6E18A7HcXKndBwAIANHvoVNaddwBU
>56F3QAu2axHXywrFe5RVNsJBhlDC3V2FS0cSNy6+IqNnRyhsXySnfnR3EO9eoPcz
>A17MUo2a5OdFog0lCr7Vi6qX2//JvfofUbUYR0j6lt6RVQhGFX6Da2AcRuj8FYbg
>P2/3XmJ+uTo=
>=C67n
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

And since this signature cannot be duplicated, you can 
rest assured that this message really is from me.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNNyI0aQHFcepsd35AQGACQP/eLz6E18A7HcXKndBwAIANHvoVNaddwBU
56F3QAu2axHXywrFe5RVNsJBhlDC3V2FS0cSNy6+IqNnRyhsXySnfnR3EO9eoPcz
A17MUo2a5OdFog0lCr7Vi6qX2//JvfofUbUYR0j6lt6RVQhGFX6Da2AcRuj8FYbg
P2/3XmJ+uTo=
=C67n
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:31:44 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> Ok.  Scenario #2 :
> 
> Have long range capital ships bearing huge missle batteries attack
> first, at long distance.  These ships need not be more then mobile
> starbases, heavily shielded and armored.  Then you'd have other capital
> ships for close-in fighting with carriers for support and raids.  How
> does this sound?


Concur!  This is the doctrine that my brother and I have basically
arrived
at.  Use the small ubiquitous fighters for clean up after
the dreadnoughts have smashed each other.  Fihters have their place
but remeber this for C-ships (capital ships), their striking power
at acquisition is determined by their spinal mount range.  In Trav
given that ships have roughly equivalent power, range and accuracy win
the 
battle.  The ships that strike first strike last, and the spinal mount 
with its speed-of-light delivery will strike beforre the missiles can 
acquire.  Nevertheless, hadronic (nuclear) missiles used en masse are 
devastating against ANY target.  

You should see the ship we are talking about!

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:43:20 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> J-Man wrote:
> 
> >Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with longer-ranged
> >missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.  You'd want
> >them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after you!
> 
> What's an IFF tag?

"Identify, Friend or Foe"....A system by which radar operators know
the ID of a contact, whether firndly or hostile.  It requires
cooperation
on the party of the "interrogated" party, who must tell you (using coded
ciphers) if he is someone you don't want to shoot at.  Civilian
airliners
and the like have characteristic IFF "squawks" which let you know who
they are.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:01:09 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fusion & HEPlaR

>Missiles in traveller haven't been t-plates before (the Missiles Supplement
from the >old JTAS doesn't mention them :-)

Well seeing JTAS isn't canon that doesn't really matter. : )   I support that
Heplar and Tplate missles aren't wanted but i think making fusion plants so
big is pretty dumb.  seems to me cost alone would be prohibitive for heplar
missles.  Especially if the Imperiums military equipment is anything like the
the US military equpiment... built by the lowest bidder.   There might be
Heplar missles for special projects but not in large #s in fleet engagements. 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:11:53 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

David J. Golden wrote:
>At 11:32 am 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>J-Man wrote:
>>
>>>Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with
>longer-ranged
>>>missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.
>You'd want
>>>them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after
>you!
>>
>>What's an IFF tag?
>
> Identification Friend/Foe--special encrypted info usually added
>to transponders so's you can tell the difference ...

So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
something.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:15:43 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Traveller 4.1 Hardcover

I preordered, ansd prepaid for, the Traveller 4.1 Hardcover that Marc
Miller is currently working on from Imperium Games.

I just received the following letter from Imperium Games

"January 20, 1998

Dear Imperium Customer;

We regret to inform you, that due to current problems in printing and
shipping, we have had to temporarily place the Deluxe Hardcover Edition
of Marc Miller's Traveller on hold.  Until we can get the Hardback
Edition with new printers, and until we can ensure its safety during
shipping we will not be accepting any orders for it.  Enclosed is your
original order and your check.

Hopefully we will be able to get the Hardback Edition back on track
soon.  We apologize for any inconvenience and we hope that you continue
to enjoy the Traveller Universe.

Sincerely

James Dailey
Imperium Games"

It looks as if IG's shipping policies are improving.  They sent me my
uncashed six month old check back & they are letting me know the product
will be delayed.  
 
I hope the delay is long enough that Marc has a chance to perfect T4.1
to his satisfaction.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:22:00 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

At 12:28 pm 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

	// Original Message and forged duplicate deleted.

>And since this signature cannot be duplicated, you can 
>rest assured that this message really is from me.
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBNNyI0aQHFcepsd35AQGACQP/eLz6E18A7HcXKndBwAIANHvoVNaddwBU
>56F3QAu2axHXywrFe5RVNsJBhlDC3V2FS0cSNy6+IqNnRyhsXySnfnR3EO9eoPcz
>A17MUo2a5OdFog0lCr7Vi6qX2//JvfofUbUYR0j6lt6RVQhGFX6Da2AcRuj8FYbg
>P2/3XmJ+uTo=
>=C67n
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	Yep. If you actually use PGP, you'll quickly discover that
copying a signature and pasting it on the end of a changed
message is completely worthless. The signature doesn't match the
text of the message, and your astrogation program quickly rejects
the bad data as just that--bad. So you *can* be sure that the
original message WAS from me, and the second one, with the
signature pasted on, is a poor forgery. Merely "duplicating" a
signature is doomed to fail.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #113
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 7 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 114



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Lexicostatistical Glottochronology
Traveller Map and Real Stars
Re: Campaigns
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
101 Lifeforms - A Reveiew
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Flat Campaigns
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Lexicostatistical Glottochronology
RE: Null development in key areas
RE: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
RE: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 03:22:52 -0500
From: "Stevie D (aka Bloo)" <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Lexicostatistical Glottochronology

Christian Razukas wrote:

> On the development of new languages in Traveller....
>
> Linguists Morris Swadesh and Robert Lees devised an approach in the 1940s
> which determined the rate at which a language changes over the centuries.
> They posited that the more cognates (i.e., shared words) between two
> languages the more recently the langauages have diverged.
>
> (To illustrate, the Italian "padre" and the Portugese "pai" are
> cognates...but the Esquimo "ataataq" is not a cognate.  Further, if two
> languages spoken today share 70% cognates, they probably diverged 1000
> years ago.)

First, this supposes a single common language from which all others are
derived, i.e., at one time, the people who became Inuit once spoke the same
language as the people who became Europeans.  How can they diverge, if they
were never connected.  While that may be jake for Traveller, it ain't for
this little clod of sod we all call home.

Second, this example of Italy and Portugal does have a common ancestral root
relatively close in time!  They are both developed from the Aryan / Indo-
European language group.  Whereas, neither of them have a demonstrable link
to Inuit, at least to my meager knowledge.

Heres some examples to think on:
English: Father, Mother
German: Vater, Mutter
Latin: Pater, Mater
Greek: Pater, Meter
French: Pere, Mere
Armenian: Hair (consider the German Herr for Sir), Mair
Sanskrit: Pitar, Matar
Russian: Otyetz, Matz
Japanese: Chichi, Haha (not really all that far from "Mama")

These languages mostly, but certainly not all, share a common source, but I
think the time of divergence calculation by cognate percentage won't help
you.  Of course, thats true for any isolated example, but look at the strong
phonetic similarity of words for mother in these languages.  They certainly
didn't diverge at the same time. (Which is a whole 'nuther issue about when a
language diverges.  How 'bout on Tuesday we start speaking Travellerese?  ;-)

No offense to the point you are trying to make, but this is a very bad
example.  How is "padre" and "pai" a shared word?  Sure they have
similarities in the first syllable, but that doesn't mean anything.  You can
find much closer parallels between Irish Gaelic and Russian, yet not only are
they much further apart geographically (although there is evidence of some
contact via Viking Sailors - if I knew more about those languages, I'd bet on
some more parallels).

Besides the fact that Italy and Portugal are very close, whereas
Alaska/Western Canada is not, we know that these languages are not even
within shouting distance.  Languages grow independently in different areas at
different rates based on whatever circumstances they face.

One thing this theory as described doesn't seem to contemplate is a shared
written form of communication.  Italian and Portugese use the Roman
Alphabet.  Inuit never did.  Until relatively recently, it wasn't written at
all.  This congate divergence theory might be more accurate when based on
divergence of two languages that share the same written phonetic alphabet.
In this area, its interesting to think about Chinese and other Pictogram,
i.e., non-phonetic languages.  China has one written language, but since its
is pictograms and not phonetics, its pronounced in radically different ways.
An old example from school:  there is a pictogram in Chinese that means
"Bathroom" (Water Closet for you non-gringos).  A native of Hong Kong and a
native of Szechuan will both know what it means if they read, but probably
won't be able to understand if the other says it.  (One reason I find
Japanese so interesting is its unique use of its own phonetic alphabets, one
for native words, one for foreign words, with the Chinese pictograms).

So, for Traveller, because there is a shared alphabet by and large, I think
the rate of divergence will be slowed greatly, at least by those who preserve
it.  Remember that there wasn't much written communication among the masses
at whatever time Portugese and Italian diverged (hate that term by the way)
from Latin.

Also, languages diverge, but they also converge.  They converge especially
when communication / travel across cultures is feasiable.  This happens a
great deal when (1) trade flourishes and disposable income goes up; (2) a
language gets codified, i.e., a dictionary is made.  Look at English.  Formed
from Norman, Saxon, German, and a whole bunch of things.  Its grows and
grows.  Absorbing whatever works.  One of the things that slowed the dynamic
nature of English was the dictionary of Samuel Johnson.  All of a sudden
there was a preferred / proper / right way to say / pronounce and to write
words.  While personally, for spoken language, I hate this, especially when
someone 'corrects' my red-necked pronunciation of some word (I am forced to
remind them that dictionaries are 'descriptive,' not 'proscriptive.'), it
does have the amazing effect of putting everyone on the same page.

For traveller, language standardization becomes a tool that assists in
maintaining the stability of an Empire.  Ever heard of "the Queen's
English"?  Ever wonder why?  :-)

Here's what I do like about your comment though:  For traveller especially.
For worlds formerly in the Solomani Empire, or this Empire, or that one, a
table
giving a basic percentage of language divergence based on the time spent in
isolation, the long night, whatever, would be very helpful for dealing with
recontact situations.  This could then give a modifier to all skill tasks
involving communication.  For example, Man from Empire attempts to use his
Liason-3 skill on a planet with a 20% divergence from Imperial standard
language.  Make that a DM to the roll of -1.  The exact percentages would be
whatever was effective.  Of course, I'd only want such a table for the base
reate of divergence.  Because language is dynamic, I'd want a roll with a
list of modifiers to allow for possibilities like a world that, based on
time, would only have a 10% language divergence, because of a catastrophe
that decimated the population and/or the infrastructure, actually had a
divergence of 30%.

While the chart you provide is a good starting point, because I have some
questions about the accuracy of this cognate comparison, since I think the
determination of what is a shared word and what isn't is informed by a lot of
other factors than the word itself, I cannot imagin how this table would not
vary by the primary base language.  Sure, I might have great difficulty
speaking to another 'english' speaker 700 years ago.  But I'm not so sure
that the same is true of a person in China.  While certainly in recent times,
a similar rate of divergence might be seen, it begs the question, which 700
years are you going to look at?  2000-1300?  1900-1200?  1000-300?  I contend
that you'll get drastically different divergence in those different periods.
(which for traveller, means to me that Tech Level / Communication speed-range
will play a huge roll in any such calculation - look at the rate of language
divergence/convergence before and after the Industrial Revolution in Western
Europe).  Heck, English wasn't even really a distinct language a thousand
years ago.

> Using the chart below, referees can calcuate how unitelligibly colonies
> lost during the Rule of Man speak English (or Turkish).  Or how many
> cognates exist between English and Vilani (perhaps a little under 1%!).
> And myriad other uses, to be sure.  Enjoy!

[snip]Why would those two have any cognates at all?  Where humans speaking
the same language before there were seeded around the rest of the galaxy?  I
don't know Traveller history as well as many on this list, but I don't think
so.  No common base language, no cognates, no divergence, since they were
never together in the first place.

At any rate, for traveller, any such chart is going to have to be arbitrary
in some fashion.

Before I forget, another TL will play a huge roll is the ability to preserve
recorded commnication / information and access it.  Sure, a world might lose
Jump ability, but if they maintain their ability to play recordings, and are
able to recieve the vast amounts of insteller communciation blanketing this
whole area of the galaxy at the speed of light, there me be an extremely
small divergence, regardless of the passage over time.

So for me, the tale is in the modifiers not the base table.  This is an
interesting starting point though.  Thanks.

Bloo

P.S.  This as well as several other threads on TML have led me to the
conclusion that what we all really, really want to have/write/use/etc. is a
comprehensive book about running instellar campaigns against a very large
backdrop of both time and space.  A Campaign Builders Handbook if you will.
Or perhaps Universe Engineer's Manual.
Some topics: language divergence over time and in response to events, the ebb
and flow of tech levels, the size and duration of various empires throughout
known time/space (in snazzy-color-coded graphics :-), how to quickly react to
a century long / millemium long nap in the cold coffin for your PCs without
rewriting the whole universe (and if they're revived in a lower TL
environment, how fast can they jumpstart the TL they find themselves in,
e.g., imagine the impact of a TL17 Genius Physicist awoken from emergency low
birth by Cleon I at the birth of his Imperium - oh wait a sec, that's how he
got Fusion Plus :-), etc., etc.  Something to think about.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 03:36:34 -0500
From: "Stevie D (aka Bloo)" <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Traveller Map and Real Stars

Just wondering if any astronomy minded of you out there have ever tried
to plot out where Traveller stars would fall in our sky?  Since there
are several real stars in the traveller map, (Antares, Vega, etc.,
etc.), it'd be interesting to see what parts of our sky are in the Third
Imperium, are Vargyr, Aslan, etc.

Of course, even though it might be non-cannon, it would be neat to
generate a traveller map of the real stars in the same areas, at least
as well as we can see it.  And since you could ignore that pesky third
dimension, you could make it fit, so to speak.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 03:38:08 -0500
From: "Stevie D (aka Bloo)" <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Campaigns

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:

> That is an ok handwave.  But I'm working on fixing the problem and will
> solve it to my satisfaction within a year.
> I'm thinking along lines of cubic sectors with very high resolution
> isometric illustrations.  Joining sectors would be problemtic, but since
> each sector would have a coordinate and each world its own
> (x,y,z)position in its sector, it will be straighforward to figure
> distances.

Have you considered starting at good ol' Sol and then working your way out?
Either using real stars or trying to reconcile traveller map stars with real
ones?  Might be interesting.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:40:25 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 01:11 pm 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it
out, I pick
>it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I
missing
>something.

	The encryption isn't something you can analyze and simply
repeat. Just like cutting and pasting a PGP signature from one
message to another won't work, you can't just record someone's
IFF transmission and resend it. Now, if you can quickly crack
military grade cipher systems, you can inpersonate a friend. But
if they were that easy to crack, nobody would rely on IFF.

	Here's a simple example using PGP. I'll use my PGP key as if I
were the Imperial Navy's cryptographic authority. Valid
identifications will be signed using my private key, so anybody
can verify them using my public key.

	Let's say you send out a sensor signal that activates Joe's
transponder. Joe's transponder squirts out the following message:

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is Joe--I'm a Friend.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNNy2pqQHFcepsd35AQEbEQP+MtKGAG4GLL4LDIyBctmNaFX3ndRmuKhN
J8zgwbp9UNueg2cBCvALbA9DIk0YvqxLwSDbAJpsLcnYAC+7FbwXhijiDEpBVx5u
ENn8GA4GA5E1BpYqN5HidU+pfF3gp/Y7zcwZI/VWy/b/K9WdvyjFJw8nIwbgbO+p
KNGOkuk1zwE=
=ug7G
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	Your system receives this message, and verifies the signature by
checking it against my public key. The answer you get is:

Good signature from user "David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>".
Signature made 1998/02/07 19:32 GMT

	So you know that Joe is a friend. Now Mike records the same
transmission,  and tries to forge an IFF identification for
himself by copying the signature. When you ping Mike, he sends

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is Mike--I'm a Friend.
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNNy2pqQHFcepsd35AQEbEQP+MtKGAG4GLL4LDIyBctmNaFX3ndRmuKhN
J8zgwbp9UNueg2cBCvALbA9DIk0YvqxLwSDbAJpsLcnYAC+7FbwXhijiDEpBVx5u
ENn8GA4GA5E1BpYqN5HidU+pfF3gp/Y7zcwZI/VWy/b/K9WdvyjFJw8nIwbgbO+p
KNGOkuk1zwE=
=ug7G
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	Your system again receives this message, and verifies the
signature by checking it against my public key. The result it:

WARNING: Bad signature, doesn't match file contents!

Bad signature from user "David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>".
Signature made 1998/02/07 19:32 GMT

	and you know that Mike is an incompetent foe.

	Note that knowing my public key does nobody any good in forging
my signature. The only way of forging it is to know my private
key. That's the beauty of public-key cryptography.

I'll cut it short here before I start lecturing about public-key
crypto in general ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:18:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 08:30 AM 2/7/98 -0700, you wrote:
>On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, J-Man wrote:
>
>> Carriers are the new wave of ship-to-ship warfare, just ask the japanese
>> who thought they had eliminated our naval power in the pacific theatre
>> of world war II by sinking our capital ships in Peral Harobor, while our
>> carriers were out on manuevers. 
>
>Well, not to re-ignite the Japanese naval theory discussion, but they knew
>damn well the value of the carriers and it was pure dumb luck on our part
>and bad intel on theirs that the carriers were'nt at Pearl when they
>attacked. In fact, the carriers were one of their primary objectives.

When Yamamoto was informed that no carriers were destroyed at Pearl, he
commented "We have lost the war."
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:56:27 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: 101 Lifeforms - A Reveiew

Bits has published a new Traveller supplement, 101 Lifeforms.  I
received a copy from Andy Lily last month.  I was avoiding commenting on
it because I had wrote a (_very_ small) part of it.  However no one
seems to discussed it much on the list & I wanted to let you all know
that it is out & is quite good.

101 Lifeforms is a digest sized 44 page book.  It has 6 pages of
copyright, table of contents, and introductory material (including
skills for animals) at the beginning.  It has 5 pages of Index and
Glossary at the end, including two complete indexes one alpha by animal
name and one sorted by habitat type.  The remaining 32 pages are filled
with the description of the 101  Lifeforms (mostly animals w/ some
plants & exotics).  Each page of the book has about 3 animals on it. 
About 20 of these animals are illustrated in small black & white line
drawings within or color illustrations on the cover.

A sample animal is as follows

48.  Dragoon
Beach, marsh, swamp (rare 2d) [native terrains & frequency]
Amphibian Pouncer 200kg A9 F6 [type, size & behavior]
S 0.5 [land] / 3S [water] 0/1 [armor value] 20/11 [hits] Bite2d, Butt
1d.  [This block also has usefull icons fof armor (a shell), hits (a
heart) and dammage (a crocadile about to bite).]

Description: This 3m long swimmer has rough skin, lines of tiny spurs
down each side and four stumpy flippers.  Its underside is flattened and
covered with suckers.  The top of the head is protected by a plate of
thick skin.  It has a pair of large eyes and a beak.
Referees Notes: [about 175 words snipped, some animals have ref notes of
only about 50 words or so - this is actually one of the more interesting
parts of the animal description]
Habitat:  Dragoons can spend longperiods floating totally motionless in
the water waiting for large prey to pass nearby.  Their body is 
remarkably flexible, allowing them to move easily through root filled
swamp water. 

This is a usefull book.  It includes notes on the lifeforms habitat,
range, domestification if applicable, etc.  Recommended.

Or as the Darmine would explain:

101 Lifeforms [base 10] 101

	1 + 0 + 1 = 2
	2^2 =4

We than crosscheck this in base 16 for confirmation:

	101 [base 16] = 65
	6 + 5 = 11
	1 + 1 = 2
	2^2 = 4

This book is significant :)	

Details on getting CORE products can be found at their website at:

http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/home.htm

I also recommend all the other books from CORE, such as the other 101
________ books, the Traveller Biography, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:57:04 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 01:11 PM 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:

>> Identification Friend/Foe--special encrypted info usually added
>>to transponders so's you can tell the difference ...
>
>So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
>it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
>something.

Your own side would pick up on the code and shoot you down.  also, under
the Laws of Land Warfare, duplicating IFF codes is considered the same as
wearing an enemy uniform to decieve him.. grounds for execution if captured.

Look at it this way.. you're flying your fighter, at least 2-300 km from
your wingman.  Definitely out of visual range.  The only methods for
identifying who is who is by the sensor returns (size, performance,
activities) and by transponders.  You, being a sneaky devil, dial your IFF
box to the other side's code.  Meanwhile, your wingman picks you up,
interrogates the bogey, and doesn't get a return.  He launches an anti-ship
missile and brags about bagging the retreating enemy, and everybody wonders
whatever happened to you...
- --
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
)      Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net     (
(          http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html        )
)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(
( A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any   )
) invention in human history--with the possible exceptions (
( of handguns and tequila.                                 )
)         Mitch Ratcliffe, Technology Review, April 1992   (
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:59:16 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

At 07:16 AM 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> If they don't like that, I say, "Hey lighten up, it's only a game."
>
>
>I totally agree with this, but it just bugs me.  I'll create a
>demonstration ofmy proposal eventually and post it on someone's web
>page.
>
>Realized 3D really does make the universe different and seem more like
>space.

Not really.  I just say that it's a representational map of Jump Space
relationships, which have a close, but not exact, correspondence with Real
Space, and this is why navigators drink a lot.
- --
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
)      Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net     (
(          http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html        )
)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(
( A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any   )
) invention in human history--with the possible exceptions (
( of handguns and tequila.                                 )
)         Mitch Ratcliffe, Technology Review, April 1992   (
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:12:07 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 06:28 PM 2/6/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I know several pilots who will not fly if certain rituals
>> are not followed.
>
>
>True.  Dont ever say the word "fire" in a cockpit unless you actually
>see one in the airplane, and don't ever make the comment.
>
>"This missions going pretty well."

Never, ever, say the word "leg" around paratroopers who are about to jump.

My own personal superstition.  If I bring a really good book to work, to
read in our holding lot, I will not get a break all day.  sounds silly, but
it works for me.
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:07:11 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Lexicostatistical Glottochronology

I hope this thread lives long enough for me to jump on it in about a week,
when I have time.  Until then, I just can't let pass --

Stevie D wrote:
[snip]
>In this area, its interesting to think about Chinese and other Pictogram,
>i.e., non-phonetic languages.  China has one written language, but since its
>is pictograms and not phonetics, its pronounced in radically different ways.
>An old example from school:  there is a pictogram in Chinese that means
>"Bathroom" (Water Closet for you non-gringos).  A native of Hong Kong and a
>native of Szechuan will both know what it means if they read, but probably
>won't be able to understand if the other says it.  (One reason I find
>Japanese so interesting is its unique use of its own phonetic alphabets, one
>for native words, one for foreign words, with the Chinese pictograms).

Chinese
       is
         not
            a
             "pictographic"
                           (or "ideographic")
                                             writing
                                                    system.

>> Using the chart below, referees can calcuate how unitelligibly colonies
>> lost during the Rule of Man speak English (or Turkish).  Or how many
>> cognates exist between English and Vilani (perhaps a little under 1%!).
>> And myriad other uses, to be sure.  Enjoy!
>
>[snip]Why would those two have any cognates at all?  Where humans speaking
>the same language before there were seeded around the rest of the galaxy?  I
>don't know Traveller history as well as many on this list, but I don't think
>so.  No common base language, no cognates, no divergence, since they were
>never together in the first place.

Gotta agree 100% here.  In fact, the most generous estimates of when full
modern language capacity developed in Homo sapiens is about 200 kya -- as
an extreme outlying date.  More conservative and probable estimates are
about 100 or 50 kya, or even less.  At the point of abduction, there wasn't
any language to diverge.  Probably not much in the way of shared
predisposition, even, at that point.

Somehow, magically, the transplanted Vilani (and Zhodani et al.) taken off
Earth around -300 kya just HAPPENED to develop cognitive and anatomical
speech capacities matching those of Terran Homo sapiens sapiens.  Of
course!  It must have been Gramps again.  He must've snuck out of his
pocket universe and tweaked all the little proto-jabbering primates a
couple times more to get it to work out right.

And WHY??? Eh?  What's his vested interest in having all these human
subspecies sharing the same language capabilities?  Like, think about it!

Did he plan ahead a hundred thousand years or so so that the
Zhodani-Vilani-Solomani axis would be able to try to sweet-talk the Empress
into bed^H^H^H going away and leaving old Grampy alone?





- --------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:09:20 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

Doug Berry wrote:

>despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I would never
>hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted Monty Python just
>before the shot.

The Army worries me a lot.


- --------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:47:14 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

J-man:
> I was wondering how life would be in the 24th century.  Let's say, for
> the sake of arguement, that by then, personal nano-factories are
> commonplace.  How would this affect world economics?  How would
> terrorism be held in check?  Would nanobots be programmed against
> fabricating dangerous weapons for sick individuals?

This is a great genre question!  I don't know.  I'm sure there are some
Shadowrun, Rifts, et al type sources that have a take on this...  Even
Activision/Auran's "Dark Reign" have a similar theme, at least about water.

> Also, would money fade as a source of wealth, to be replaced by
> resources in this new baroque period?  Seeing how anyone could
> 'fabricate' what they want, the only things worth fighting over would be
> the resources to feed their nanofactories.

This would probably remove all significant action from the realm of the
individual and into the realm of the megacorp, though.  I think that
Traveller in general has circumvented development to this level of
technology in most cases by recurring "long nights."  Some folks have
pointed out that it's roughly 4k years to M:0, and for linguistic purposes
it's one-way linear, however, for technology we moved forward a thousand or
so, fell back for a thousand or so, and then had to re-learn a lot of it
along the way to where we are now...  Most of the worlds, at least in my
Imperium, that the players visit are more reminiscent of very active 2nd and
3rd world ports on Terra in the 21st relative to life "in the big city USA."
There are instances of high technology: ships, loaders, robots, grav
vehicles, but technology is not the overwhelming factor in everyday life...

Perhaps on Sylea or Terra such a Paranoia-like supertechnological
environment might exist, but I would find it too much of a headache to run
or describe or keep consistent.  Inconsistency is easier to mask in the
frontier...  Heh.

I would like to read your take on it, though.

>>>-------------------->>
>>>-------------------->>

David Reed
"...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com
as the golden age, until
713.245.2656
it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International
arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services				-Snorri
Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:47:12 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

Peter:
[my response to Del's wonderful and amazing handwave snipped]
> If jumpspace is two dimensional and "ship passing through jump space
> could not reach stars above and below the galactic plane." why is it
> that in Traveller there are several examples of cultures who travelled a
> long distance at sublight speeds through normal space but still ended up
> in the Imperium (such as the sublight earth ships that colonized the
> islands) ?
> 
> Are they just the ones who stayed in the plane of jump space ?

Yep.  You're very smart.  No frequent trade would be had with those outside
of our "galactic plane."

> Maybe there are several cultures out there descended from sublight ships
> that are presumed lost by the senders but which actually arrived quite
> nicely.  Maybe these cultures are jealous and angry at the people who
> live in the plane of space where they _can_ use jump space.  Perhaps one
> of these cultures, which happens to be matriarchal, has sent out a
> message that will destroy Imperial (& Zhodani first) society as we know
> it.

Societies based on such nonsensical hatred are great for space opera, but in
"reality" (heh!) very seldom survive very long in that form... they tend to
fragment or transform into more stable, tolerant, capitalistic societies --
people really just want to get by for the most part, and it takes quite a
charismatic leader to talk them into warlike, lemming behavior (especially
on the order of mounting a massive, sublight assault as the one you
intimated).  An outlier in this respect (and many others) was Nazi Germany
- -- the charisma required to maintain, unwavering, the malice and motivation
required to carry out such a pogrom for the length of time that it was
maitained is enormous!  In the end, I think, it would have collapsed of its
own weight -- just a Saddam's regime would, if the U.S. would give it the
chance, by lifting the embargo: we only strengthen and deepen the support by
attacking the nation, rather than distinguishing the individual (as George
Bush did so eloquently).  His support would more likely slip and more
moderate and peaceful internal forces could replace the current power
structure more easily if they were not daily threatened with war.  Allah
help us if we do eliminate the power structure that exists now without
something to replace it immediately and produce the kind of vacuum that Iran
could instantly fill, and grow from the unclaimed resources.  If you think
Saddam's bad, wait 'till you get a load of Shiite ayatollahs on oil-based
economic steroids.  [Oops.  The author has wandered too far afield and will
now be redirected.  -ed.]

Very few institutions maintain such a long-term focus or goal... and those
that do tend to be religious in nature.  That is why, to me, Herbert's
Fremen were so "alien" (from the Western world) and moving: they were
willing to work toward a goal that was so much larger than each of them
individually as to be unfathomable except in the abstract.  "My childrens'
childrens' grandchildren will see this thing come to pass, and for this I
will give my life, my wealth, and my soul..."  Such extraordinary actions
are seldom those made by selfishness, hatred, or revenge -- in any culture
- -- such *evil* motivations generally demand personal involvement in the end
result.  Perhaps, at heart, I am an optimist, though.

Would make for a great plot, though, wouldn't it?  I think too often in our
Darwinian evaluations of people, plots, and motives, the vision of the other
great "survival instinct," that of species-survival, is lost... but such has
our modern, urban, individuall-isolated, global culture taught us to spurn
self-sacrifice in the name of profit motive and individual survival.

> We don't have any evidence for this sort of message do we ?

Nope.  Did you need some?  I have contact within the "great right-wing
conspiracy" that will be more than happy to fabricate some for you at a most
reasonable price...

> Conspiratorial Traveller is easy isn't it ?

Nah, it's too much trouble to conspire.  It's easier to rely on the
whimsical, ephemeral human nature to come up with the right thing at the
right time.  ;-)

> "Of course the rules are immutable ... if that's the way you want them."

Or "Until further notice."

>>>-------------------->>
>>>-------------------->>

David Reed
"...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com
as the golden age, until
713.245.2656
it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International
arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services				-Snorri
Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #114
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 7 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 115



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GenAssist is alive and well
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: fighters
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: Jump drives
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: winmail.dat
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
GURPS Traveller
Artwork Opinions Needed
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: fighters
Traveller 4.1 -- "Real Soon Now" = Vapourware?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:22:27 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: GenAssist is alive and well

I'm pleased to have discovered one of their early marketing/PR campaigns
around the 'Fin project.  For reasons unknown, SolSec arranged for it to be
disguised in an alternative-spirituality form.  Nevertheless, it clearly
points to loathsome medical experimentation by psionic Solomani
bestialists.

          http://www.dolphinsociety.org/ssdf1index.htm


- --------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:06:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 
> but remeber this for C-ships (capital ships), their striking power
> at acquisition is determined by their spinal mount range.  In Trav
> given that ships have roughly equivalent power, range and accuracy win
> the 
> battle.  The ships that strike first strike last, and the spinal mount 
> with its speed-of-light delivery will strike beforre the missiles can 

This is certainly true in most traveller combat systems. I've been
leaning towards a slightly less deadly system where capital ships
can at least take a few spinal hits (not always, of course). The
reason (as I posted a few days ago) is that if one shot is a kill,
then I'm not sure big ships would ever get built, and we know that
they do in the official history.

That said, I agree. Even in HG fighters and smaller, missile armed
ships were used to predigest targets--that or finish others off.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:10:35 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: fighters

>Now, this wouldnt be so much of a problem, except that the cheapest missile
>with other than a primitive engine one can build now costs MCr 2.5 with
>thruster plates and fusion plus, or MCr 2 with a hot fusion engine and
>Heplar. And thats before the warhead. Add in a nuke det laser warhead and
>you can add a megacredit to the price. Volume is 10m3 minimum for either
>the t-plates or the hot fusion plant, so a TL12 missile isnt going to get
>within cooo-eee of the half a displacement ton of a "standard shipboard
>missile".
There has been published on this list - as reasonably official FFS2 errata - 
the AND drive, which gives half-ton missiles 6G12 performance.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:18:27 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

Dave Golden wrote:

> Yep. If you actually use PGP, you'll quickly discover that
>copying a signature and pasting it on the end of a changed
>message is completely worthless. The signature doesn't match the
>text of the message, and your astrogation program quickly rejects
>the bad data as just that--bad. So you *can* be sure that the
>original message WAS from me, and the second one, with the
>signature pasted on, is a poor forgery. Merely "duplicating" a
>signature is doomed to fail.

Ok, I didn't do any analysis of the signature.  I just cut and pasted.  But
the analysis could be done and a signature could be attached that would fool
the PGP.  I don't care enough to do the analysis and would have no use for
the results.  I like staying on the legal side of things these days.

But if I did feel the need and had a use for it, I feel sure that I could.
Once a program was written to do the analysis and do a better job of
forging, I guess the originator would have to come up with a new system.
So, I guess like locks, these things are only designed to keep the honest,
honest.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 15:29:38 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

At 04:18 pm 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Dave Golden wrote:
>
>> Yep. If you actually use PGP, you'll quickly discover that
>>copying a signature and pasting it on the end of a changed
>>message is completely worthless. The signature doesn't match
the
>>text of the message, and your astrogation program quickly
rejects
>>the bad data as just that--bad. So you *can* be sure that the
>>original message WAS from me, and the second one, with the
>>signature pasted on, is a poor forgery. Merely "duplicating" a
>>signature is doomed to fail.
>
>Ok, I didn't do any analysis of the signature.  I just cut and
pasted.  But
>the analysis could be done and a signature could be attached
that would fool
>the PGP.  I don't care enough to do the analysis and would have
no use for
>the results.  I like staying on the legal side of things these
days.

	Theoretically, yes, the analysis can be done. The usual quotes
thrown around by those semi in the know start with a timeframe
greater than the age of the universe and go up from there,
though. It ain't nearly as easy as you seem to think it is.
>But if I did feel the need and had a use for it, I feel sure
that I could.

	I will bet you every single last cent I own that you cannot do
it. I'd suggest actually looking into cryptography before making
such blanket statements. And if you CAN do it, you'd better watch
out for the NSA--they'd be very interested.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 98 16:57:29 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump drives

On 1998-02-06 6:48 pm, David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote the 
following:

>> The grid generates the field to enter jumpspace, the hydrogen is
>> required to keep the field stable. They coexist easily and intuitively.
>
>Well, no.  The problem is that the previous constraints for
>the field theory make you do things that don't follow from
>a "ballast" theory.  It does not follow inuitively that 
>ballast has to be hydrogen (yes, you can come up with
>rationalizations, but that is the point, you do have to
>come up with them).  It doesn't follow intuitively that 
>you would be getting energy signature when you come out
>of jump space rather than matter.  When you center the
>theory around one effect, and then also require another
>effect (the lanthanum grid) it isn't as simple.  Etc.

 Where does it specifically state (in canon) that there is an energy 
signature, and how specific does canon get in describing what form the 
signature takes? Why *wouldn't* a cloud of hydrogen materializing in 
normal space, being bombarded by the solar wind, produce an energy 
signature?

It does follow intuitively. I've discussed why the need that the ballast 
be hydrogen before follows intuitively *for me* (and others), so I won't 
rehash it.

Maybe I should turn the arguement around. *IF* you agreed that a 
"ballast" or "atmosphere" were necessary in jumpspace, what material 
would make the most sense to you?

>> I have no beef with your point of view, btw. I disagree with the notion
>> that this hydrogen atmosphere hypothesis has no merit. You've yet to
>> convince me that there are holes in this "theory".
>
>The problem, as I see it, is not so much "holes", but that
>you need to patch and fill to stick it into the requirements.
>I don't have any problem with the "bubble theory" if you
>wanted to build a background consistently around it from
>the ground up, but if you want to make changes to an
>existing background they should be as small and simple
>as possible (many of the holes we are looking at, like
>drop tanks, seemed like equally good ideas at the time :-).

Well, I guess the point that members of this side of the debate are 
trying to make, is that the hydrogen bubble fits the background *better* 
(more consistantly) then most other theories.

No matter that it seems to you to be more complicated, and seems to 
rationalize to much for your taste; it does explain basic statements 
previously made about how jump drive works.

ie. massive amounts of H2 as jump "fuel", drop tanks, keeps power 
generation ability and need down, etc etc.

To us, on this side of the debate, you have to "patch and fill" in order 
to explain away how the jump drive can consume so much fuel and create so 
much power; and yet this technology is not useful in *any other* 
application.

We are both equally entrenched. Your concerns are as equally valid as 
mine. IMHO both theories are equally sound and equally flawed. I choose 
the H2 solution, because I have a more difficult time swallowing the 
flaws of *massive* energy creation and fuel consumption.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 16:04:43 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On 02/07/98 at 08:22 AM,  Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> said:

>> Nevertheless in massed attacks a well trained fighter formations will
>> act as a weapons batteries, inflicting systemic damage and possibly a
>> statistically lucky kill.  This alone, and the need to counter the
>> enemies fighters, will make fleets have substatial carrier wings.
 
>I think so. Look at the TL15 Imperial fighters--they are 50 dtons with a
>crew of 2. These can carry a bunch of missiles, and have a laser turret.
>They can attack bigger ships with the missiles, and act as an anti-missile
>screen as well (and away from the mother ship to thin out the attack) with
>the turret.

May I respectfully submit, when you get to 50+ dt you are moving into the
realm of the "boat"..as in missle or torpedo boat.  Ok, maybe it's just a
difference in terminology, but I see screens of, slightly larger, MTB's
serviced by Ship Tenders covering the movement of large capital ships, not
tiny fighters buzzing around.

I think, the MTB's would slide up to 70+ tons with some transitioning from
boat to ship and being jump capable.  They would carry crews of 3 to 6,
mount substantial anti-ship missile resources capable of hurting capital
ships (if they can get a hit on them) and anti-civilian ship lasers.  

These larger MTB's would be able to fill a number of roles.  They would be
large and powerful enough to operate independently for several days at a
time in an anti-pirate/raider role.  They could serve as picket and patrol
ships ranging around a fleet providing intelligence and early warning.  In
squadron or flotilla groups they could provide screens and flank protection
for capital ships.  

Frankly, I think, squadron or flotilla sized "charges" against capital
warships would be acts of desperation, perhaps to divert attention while
other units withdrew, but *could* prove effective with *massive* missile
barrages in doing surface damage to even large ships.  Now, I don't like
ablative armor, so it's unlikely these sort of attacks will destroy large
warships, but surface damage could still "slow them down."  

If we just assume ship's will have radiators and sensors exposed on the
surface then "hull scraping" attacks *do* become effective.  Damage a
ship's sensors and its ability to hit multiple targets and targets at long
range is decreased.  Damage the ship's radiators and it has to reduce power
consumption, which *could* mean lower accelerations and less frequent (or
shorter ranged) spinal firings. 

Personally, I think battles will tend to be won by the side with the most
accurate, longest ranged energy weapons.  (and TL ought to play a big role
in that, but that's a different discussion ;-) It *might* be that Fusion+
didn't make MTB's possible, but *did* make them enough faster, able to
carry enough more armor, and able to carry enough more *larger* missiles to
make these "hull scraping" attacks against opposing fleet's capital ships
really effective...for a while...giving the IN's capital ships a decisive
velocity and range advantage.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 14:52:07 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

Richard,

> characters like "" or " "

I don't know what is supposed to be there, but what I see is a
superscripted 2 enclosed in quotes and a blank character enclosed in
quotes.

A number of posters' messages turn up here with strange characters
scattered throughout them, Marc's T4.1 posts come quickly to mind, but all
are more or less readable.  The ones that are in html, otoh, require me to
run them through a browser and that isn't automatic with my email
client...those I grumble about.  ;-> It would be nice if everyone's message
reader could read the output of everyone's message editor, but that's just
not the case.  Because of that we should strive to make our posts as
generic as possible, at least, that's my thinking.

As for winmail.dat, it does seem to cause problems in the digests, and is
wasted bandwidth (and storage space) for a lot of us.  The polite thing to
do would be to turn it off for posts to the list, and if it causes as much
trouble in the digests as I *think* it does we are probably past simply
being polite.

Now, I enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy, but let's all
remember we are here to have *fun* arguing (Ok, discussing ;-) "things
Traveller."  So, let's help each other enjoy the list by arguing about
Virus, .1c Asteroids, Jump Drives or even the dreaded Task System, *not*
haranguing each other about our choices of computer systems, software or
architecture.  There are plenty of other places we can do that, right?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:56:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Richard A. Flores wrote:

> David J. Golden wrote:
> >At 11:32 am 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >>J-Man wrote:

> >>What's an IFF tag?
> >
> > Identification Friend/Foe--special encrypted info usually added
> >to transponders so's you can tell the difference ...
> 
> So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
> it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
> something.
> 
> 

Because the encryption key doesn't last long enough to do that.

Much simpler to just shoot everything that moves ;-)

Current levels of encryption technology are such that it's impossible to
break these schemes in the real time it takes to respond. remember that
missile querying your IFF system is coming at you _fast_! I have no doubt
that 3I level systems will be much harder to crack.

Meanwhile they're changing frequencies at several hundred times per second
too.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 19:00:21 -0500
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE

Hi,

AUCTION CLOSES IN 29 HOURS!  GET THOSE BIDS IN!  BID HIGH!  DON'T BE
OUTBID IN THE LAST LITTLE WHILE!  MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR ITEMS!!!

This the last time this will be posted to the TML.  I have received
three complaints total, which is why I have continued to post it, as
that does not by any means portray a majority's opinion.  Thanks for the
time on the list.

I've deciced to auction off my Traveller collection of materials ranging
from Classic to 4th Edition.  Some of the items below are in good shape,
and are good finds.

First, the rules:
1)  Please bid only with the intention of buying
2)  All bids in United States currency (even though I'm in Canada!)
3)  Buyer pays shipping from oakville, Ontario, Canada
4)  I reserve the right to remove items or reject bids without reason
5)  Only bids received at pmiller@linkeasy.net or ICQ#5294589 witll be
    processed and accepted.
6)  The auction begins January 26th 1998, 1am, and ends 2/9/98 midnight
7)  I reserve the right to increase or decrease the auction length
8)  All bidders are automatically placd on the mailing list.  E-mail me
    to be removed.

Second, the conditions guide (from Titan Games)
M=Mint       - We took it out of the shrinkwrap (for some reason)
and                  put it up for sale; looks like it's right from the
               printer's
NM=Near Mint - Corners or Binding have minimal or no wear
VF=Very Fine - Corners, Binding have small wear, 
               Cover may be slightly scuffed
F=Fine       - Corners, Binding, or Cover have wear or small creases
G=Good       - Corners, Binding, or Cover more wear, large creases or 
               scuffing
Fa=Fair      - Corners, Binding, or Cover very worn, many creases and
               much scuffing
P=Poor       - Corners, Binding, or Cover excessively worn, possible 
               tears in cover

Third, the items:  (latest bidder's alias and bid underneath) - MIN BID

MegaTraveller Boxed Set (Imperial Encyclopedia, Referee's Manual,
Player's Manual, Spinward Marches poster map) MT
        - BOX is FAIR, CONTENTS are VERY FINE - wlewis $20

Traveller Boxed Set, digest sized (Books 1-3) CT
        - BOX is GOOD, CONTENTS are VERY FINE - rstanek $75

Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller (CT)
        - VERY FINE - j-man $20

Book 4: Mercenary (CT)
        - FINE - T4Aslan $10

Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches (CT)
        - FAIR - SpiralBound $10

Adventure 9:  Nomad's of the World-Ocean (CT) 
        - VERY FINE - T4Aslan  $8

Double Adventuee 3: Death Station\Argon Gambit (CT) 
        - VERY FINE - mkent $15

Double Adventure (FASA): The Stazhlekh Report\The Harrensa Project (CT)
        - FINE - mkent $25

Marc Miller's Traveller Rulebook (T4)
        - GOOD - electric-stitch $11

Pocket Empires (T4)
        - FINE\VERY FINE - J-man $20

Emperor's Arsenal (T4)
        - MINT - J-man $20

Challenge Isuses #57
        - FINE - subbob $4

Challenge Issue #63
	- FINE - subbob $4

Challenge Issue #70 
        - FAIR - subbob $4

Megatrveller 101 Vehicles (MT)
        - FINE - igor $15

Megatraveller's Referee's Gaming Kit (MT) 
        - VERY FINE - J-man $20

Traveler: The New Era  Rulebook (TNE) - December 1993
        - MINT - darth $15

All bids to pmiller@linkeasy.net
- -- 
- -- 
_________________________________Peter J. Miller
pmiller@linkeasy.net                ICQ #5294589
  ----> http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ <-----   
"The duty of a government is to protect the right
to free expression; not to decide where this
right begins and ends." - Peter Miller

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:19:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 
> May I respectfully submit, when you get to 50+ dt you are moving into the
> realm of the "boat"..as in missle or torpedo boat.  Ok, maybe it's just a
> difference in terminology, but I see screens of, slightly larger, MTB's

I'm mearly talking about the official traveller universe, YMMV :-)

The Heavy Fighter used in every ship in Sup.9 is 50 tons, they even
have launch tubes for them. Actually the text even states that most
ships have facilities to deal with these small craft!

And a single Tigress carries *300* of these 50 ton monsters.

> I think, the MTB's would slide up to 70+ tons with some transitioning from
> boat to ship and being jump capable.  They would carry crews of 3 to 6,
> mount substantial anti-ship missile resources capable of hurting capital
> ships (if they can get a hit on them) and anti-civilian ship lasers.  
 
There are two different kinds of boats, really (military): SDBs, and
fighters. The latter includes 50,000 Battleriders. It is kind of
grey where the transition from fighter to battlerider is. Crew level
might be a good starting point. Get the crew up above what we see in
aircraft, and it starts looking like a BR I guess.

> These larger MTB's would be able to fill a number of roles.  They would be
> large and powerful enough to operate independently for several days at a
> time in an anti-pirate/raider role.  They could serve as picket and patrol
> ships ranging around a fleet providing intelligence and early warning.  In
> squadron or flotilla groups they could provide screens and flank protection
> for capital ships.  
 
Interestingly, this is how the  Heavy Fighter is described in Sup.9.

Small fighters somehow turning the tide (grossly, as suggested by
T4) is rather goofy, IMO.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 98 17:25:18 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: GURPS Traveller

Okay, folks....

Love it or hate it, the ad in the new Pyramid magazine has to be seen.  
(That would be issue #28 for anyone that's counting.)

"Free Trader Beowulf...
Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
Can you hear me?
Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
Hang in there, Beowulf...
...help is on the way!

It gave me chills.

Also, in SJ Games News on page 5 is a bit of information about the 1998 
release of GURPS Traveller and their tentative plans for its future.  I 
have to say that in the wake of the sad news regarding the T4.1 hardback 
(brought to us by Peter Newman's recent communcation from IG), it's a 
good sign for the future of Traveller -- regardless of what basic rules 
form or era we as individual fans play it in.

Count me still excited about any new Traveller product that comes out -- 
regardless of who is producing it.

As always, a Traveller fan,

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 98 17:25:24 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Artwork Opinions Needed

Hello again:

I have no intentions of starting up the Great What Is Traveller Artwork 
Debate again, but I have been asked to solicit opinions from those who 
love the game.

Dan Smith is going to be illustrating part (if not all) of the GURPS 
Traveller book and has asked what style artwork says "Traveller".  He's 
excited about the project and looking forward to helping produce a 
product that will please as many people as possible -- especially the die 
hard Traveller fans.

I would like your opinions about what you think is the best example of 
Traveller artwork -- and I would like them emailed to me directly rather 
than cluttering up the list and risking another debate/flame war.

Your help is definitely appreciated!

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:23:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Richard A. Flores wrote:

> Dave Golden wrote:
> 
> > Yep. If you actually use PGP, you'll quickly discover that
> >copying a signature and pasting it on the end of a changed
> >message is completely worthless. The signature doesn't match the
> >text of the message, and your astrogation program quickly rejects
> >the bad data as just that--bad. So you *can* be sure that the
> >original message WAS from me, and the second one, with the
> >signature pasted on, is a poor forgery. Merely "duplicating" a
> >signature is doomed to fail.
> 
> Ok, I didn't do any analysis of the signature.  I just cut and pasted.  But
> the analysis could be done and a signature could be attached that would fool
> the PGP.  I don't care enough to do the analysis and would have no use for
> the results.  I like staying on the legal side of things these days.

Yes it could, which is why you also make the message time-dependent. You
can break PGP and other public key crypto systems, but the best we have
today is brute force, and unless you have a basement full of Crays you're
not going to break it in a reasonable amount of time.

 
> But if I did feel the need and had a use for it, I feel sure that I could.
> Once a program was written to do the analysis and do a better job of
> forging, I guess the originator would have to come up with a new system.
> So, I guess like locks, these things are only designed to keep the honest,
> honest.

Actually, all you need to do is up the ante by increasing your key size a
few bits...

There have been contests recently to break current available DES encrypted
messages. The system uses space cycles on thousands and thousands of
computer systems around the world, trying keys at thousands per second.

I seem to recall it took something like 30 days to break the single
message.

Like I said, a basement full of crays...

Public key cryptography is an amazing thing. Check out PGP sometime.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:59:30 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Dave Golden wrote:

>I'll cut it short here before I start lecturing about public-key
>crypto in general ...

But it was just getting good. :-)  Ok, now I understand, it's not just a
matter of encryption, it also involves a number of variables that I as your
foe might not even think of.  Like the location bearing off a marker or in
an environment the altitude, or even the temperature.  The date and time
could be part of the signature and I suppose that if all friendlies were
coordinated before the assault, then even the variables could change.  It
was time and date Greenwich (sp.), but now it's time and date IS.  Etc.
Each change makes a new authenticator code and a new encryption scheme.

Hmmm...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:09:53 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>Look at it this way.. you're flying your fighter, at least 2-300 km from
>your wingman.  Definitely out of visual range.  The only methods for
>identifying who is who is by the sensor returns (size, performance,
>activities) and by transponders.  You, being a sneaky devil, dial your IFF
>box to the other side's code.  Meanwhile, your wingman picks you up,
>interrogates the bogey, and doesn't get a return.  He launches an anti-ship
>missile and brags about bagging the retreating enemy, and everybody wonders
>whatever happened to you...

Ok, this I also understand.  Some days I am thicker than others.  But, I
have an excellent excuse, I don't feel good.  <whine mode OFF>

Couldn't I just waggle my wings like StarBuck?  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:27:02 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: fighters

Bruce Macintosh wrote:


>There has been published on this list - as reasonably official FFS2
errata -
>the AND drive, which gives half-ton missiles 6G12 performance.

Does anyone know where one might find such a description?

cybernot@GTE.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:35:23 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Traveller 4.1 -- "Real Soon Now" = Vapourware?

On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:23:26 -0500, you wrote:

>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Traveller 4.1 Hardcover
>
>I preordered, ansd prepaid for, the Traveller 4.1 Hardcover that Marc
>Miller is currently working on from Imperium Games.
>
>I just received the following letter from Imperium Games
>
>"January 20, 1998
>
>Dear Imperium Customer;
>
>We regret to inform you, that due to current problems in printing and
>shipping, we have had to temporarily place the Deluxe Hardcover Edition
>of Marc Miller's Traveller on hold.  Until we can get the Hardback
>Edition with new printers, and until we can ensure its safety during
>shipping we will not be accepting any orders for it.  Enclosed is your
>original order and your check.
>
>Hopefully we will be able to get the Hardback Edition back on track
>soon.  We apologize for any inconvenience and we hope that you continue
>to enjoy the Traveller Universe.
>
>Sincerely
>
>James Dailey
>Imperium Games"
>
>It looks as if IG's shipping policies are improving.  They sent me my
>uncashed six month old check back & they are letting me know the product
>will be delayed.  

Maybe they got so many threats of legal action they were *forced* to return
money/cheques?

As for their policies improving, well, there is the alternative explanation --
this is a way of saying "Don't hold your breath, this is unlikely to ever
appear" for (pick one) --

1) Inadequate financing from Sweatpea
2) Incompetent business practices by IG
3) Lack of Cash Flow (because of 2, probably)
3) We're soon to be out of business

Have they finally pissed off so many committed customers, so many distributors,
and shops, with inferior, bug and typo ridden products that they simply cannot
proceed?
 
>I hope the delay is long enough that Marc has a chance to perfect T4.1
>to his satisfaction.

We can only *hope* (if anyone still cares about IG) that this is the case
(personally, like I've said since its announcement, it seems to me that
Traveller's real hope for the future is GURPSTrav).

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #115
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 116



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Flat Campaigns
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Traveller 4.1 -- "Real Soon Now" = Vapourware?
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Sublight Starships
Hull Grid
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Campaigns
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: 4th FW (long)
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:41:03 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
 You, being a sneaky devil, dial your IFF
> box to the other side's code.  Meanwhile, your wingman picks you up,
> interrogates the bogey, and doesn't get a return.  He launches an anti-ship
> missile and brags about bagging the retreating enemy, and everybody wonders
> whatever happened to you...


Or you don't see the allied identification markings on a British APC in
the heat of combat, and bag it as an "enemy."  
Good IFF among allies would/should have prevented that.  
(Don't think I could live with myself after an incident like that
one...)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:37:07 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

> Not really.  I just say that it's a representational map of Jump Space
> relationships, which have a close, but not exact, correspondence with Real
> Space, and this is why navigators drink a lot.
> --
   
But the Imperium was mapped over corresponding space.  TAke three points
anywhere and they form a plane.  The 3I map is 2D no matter how you look
at it, jspace or not.

But it is a useful handwave.  My only problem is if you use this answer
it doesn't tell you where a damn thing really is, and that is what I
want to know so I can map the local regions of our galaxy into Trav.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:52:14 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
> it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
> something.


Sounds very easy but is not.  You need to have a copy of the emanating
system for this to work, because IFF "interrogates."

Freindly interrogations sent...respose of proper code=friendly
				no response = bogey/bandit

There are 4 types of IFF that can be interrogated in NATO, which I will
not go into.  
As my Army buddies say, missing one of those codes is an 80% we will
fire on you.  Missing 2 of them is 90%  More than that and some Patriot
gunners have their way with you.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 01:45:31 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:22:54 -0500, you wrote:


>The missiles still would lack the power to inflict significant damage
>unless used in large numbers (1000's? 100's?).  The reason the IJN
>was able to make the Pearl Harbor attack was due to their development
>of the "Long Lance" oxygen torpedo, the preeminent weapon of its type
>and time, specifically designed to destroy capital ships sitting at
>rest in Pearl. ISYN.


The Long Lance torpedo was a surface launched weapon, 24" in diamter.
The Japanese air-dropped torpedo was a standard 21" weapon. The
difference was they were fitted with wooden fins that allowed them to
run in the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor, otherwise they would have
buried in the bottom mud.

Their success was the training of the pilots, the lack of preparedness
by the American ship crews, and the innovation involved in getting the
torpedoes to run correctly.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:46:34 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller 4.1 -- "Real Soon Now" = Vapourware?

>Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:35:23 GMT
>From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
>Subject: Traveller 4.1 -- "Real Soon Now" = Vapourware?

>>It looks as if IG's shipping policies are improving.  They sent me my
>>uncashed six month old check back & they are letting me know the product
>>will be delayed.  

>Maybe they got so many threats of legal action they were *forced* to return
>money/cheques?

Quite possibly, the reason is much less important than the act itself.

>>I hope the delay is long enough that Marc has a chance to perfect T4.1
>>to his satisfaction.

>We can only *hope* (if anyone still cares about IG) that this is the case
>(personally, like I've said since its announcement, it seems to me that
>Traveller's real hope for the future is GURPSTrav).

Phillip, you really do have it in for IG don't you :*> We all know that
Marc *IS* still working on T4.1, and from what has been seen of it so far
(which is quite a lot) it is going to be good. I for one like T4, it has
seen some of the best material for Traveller yet (and some of the worse).
The system is simple and elegant.

Is IG going under? don't know, really don't. If it does it will happen
fast and without warning, we'll wake up to a message on the TML saying
IG has closed their doors. However I've said it before and I'll say it
again: if IG goes under and GURPS is producing Traveller worldbooks, it
will be the end of Traveller as an independent game and I for one will
morn its passing.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
We're digging a hole in the road, you can't go up, you can't go down
you'll have to wait to drive around
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 20:59:03 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
> > but remeber this for C-ships (capital ships), their striking power
> > at acquisition is determined by their spinal mount range.  In Trav
> > given that ships have roughly equivalent power, range and accuracy win
> > the
> > battle.  The ships that strike first strike last, and the spinal mount
> > with its speed-of-light delivery will strike beforre the missiles can
> 
> This is certainly true in most traveller combat systems. I've been
> leaning towards a slightly less deadly system where capital ships
> can at least take a few spinal hits (not always, of course). The
> reason (as I posted a few days ago) is that if one shot is a kill,
> then I'm not sure big ships would ever get built, and we know that
> they do in the official history.
> 
> That said, I agree. Even in HG fighters and smaller, missile armed
> ships were used to predigest targets--that or finish others off.
> 
> -Merrick


This is why ships  carry not only spinal mounts, but armor.  These
developments are quite reminiscent of the Battleship building race
earlier this century.

Cships CAN survive single hits, maybe even multiple hits.  A MT
Type-T spinal mount packs the explosive power of several hundred
tonnes of TNT in a single shot.

	300,000 MW x 60 sec = 1.8 x 10^13 MJoule

	1KT TNT = 4.14 x 10^12 MJ

	efficiency = 20%

	=> single shot yield = 0.870 KT i.e. 870 tons of TNT !

	This assumes that Meson Gun efficiency DOES NOT rise with
	TL, a flawed assumption (in my opinion) common to all
	varriants of FF&S.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 20:39:44 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> 
> So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
> it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
> something.

Well, you can't just "analyze" it.  It's crypto, theoretically
unbreakable.
Retransmitting the basic interrogation response might work unless keying 
from the original interrogation sequence were encoded in the response. 
In 
that case the system would recognize the difference between a valid
response 
and a simple duplication of a now invalid signal.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:18:30 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

John Lansford wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:22:54 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >The missiles still would lack the power to inflict significant damage
> >unless used in large numbers (1000's? 100's?).  The reason the IJN
> >was able to make the Pearl Harbor attack was due to their development
> >of the "Long Lance" oxygen torpedo, the preeminent weapon of its type
> >and time, specifically designed to destroy capital ships sitting at
> >rest in Pearl. ISYN.
> 
> The Long Lance torpedo was a surface launched weapon, 24" in diamter.
> The Japanese air-dropped torpedo was a standard 21" weapon. The
> difference was they were fitted with wooden fins that allowed them to
> run in the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor, otherwise they would have
> buried in the bottom mud.
> 
> Their success was the training of the pilots, the lack of preparedness
> by the American ship crews, and the innovation involved in getting the
> torpedoes to run correctly.
> 
> John Lansford
> http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

I distinctly remember reading that the LL was developed around a long
standing plan to defeat the US PacFleet at Pearl.  A one battle war.
I don't doubt that what you say is correct, but I cannot recall the
reference I am drawing my memories from.  It distinctly detailed the
japanese startegy and I remember my surprise at learning how that one 
weapon had been so crucial to the strike.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 20:47:56 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 08:30 AM 2/7/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, J-Man wrote:
> >
> >> Carriers are the new wave of ship-to-ship warfare, just ask the japanese
> >> who thought they had eliminated our naval power in the pacific theatre
> >> of world war II by sinking our capital ships in Peral Harobor, while our
> >> carriers were out on manuevers.
> >
> >Well, not to re-ignite the Japanese naval theory discussion, but they knew
> >damn well the value of the carriers and it was pure dumb luck on our part
> >and bad intel on theirs that the carriers were'nt at Pearl when they
> >attacked. In fact, the carriers were one of their primary objectives.
> 
> When Yamamoto was informed that no carriers were destroyed at Pearl, he
> commented "We have lost the war."

Yamamoto knew from the outset that "winning the war" was a matter
of defeating the American's will to fight.  A victory at Pearl would
have bought Japan 3 or 4 years to consolidate the WestPac holdings
and gain control of the shipping lanes out to the second island chain.

The failure to destroy the Carriers was a significant setback indeed. 

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 20:25:33 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Sublight Starships

On 02/07/98 at 09:48 AM,  Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu> said:

>Prior to the invention of jump drive, travel between the distant stars 
>required epic voyages at slower-than-light speeds through normal space.
>The technical challenges of such a flight are daunting, and it is not
>until efficient fusion reaction drives are developed at tech-9 that the
>construction of these sublight or "STL" starships becomes feasible.

Excellent work, Steven!

Two little additions.  

Magnetic Sail Technology - Although, magnetic sails won't be able to give
you enough acceleration to really matter they will be able to effectively
brake the ship at the end of its journey with *much* lower mass required. 
Additionally, the magnetic sail could be used to perform the slight course
corrections that might be needed after the ship exhausts its fuel.  This
will allow you to effectively double the ship's maximum velocity to 20%,
30%, 40% plus c, because you can use virtually all the fuel accelerating.

Low Berth Technology - Effective cryogenic, or whatever, techniques might
allow you to carry a much larger effective payload.  A few crewpersons
could rotate through "sleep"/work cycles surviving an entire (or even
several trips) and delivering a large number of frozen colonists to the
Outworlds.  Personally, I've got my doubts about "sleeper" tech, but it is
an SF staple, so you should build it in.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 20:43:42 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Hull Grid

On 02/07/98 at 09:39 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

>	The hull grid is spread out over the surface of the entire ship, and the
>actual volume of the *grid* (not the rest of the drive) can be assumed
>negligible and included within the hull itself. It just occupies surface
>area.

How the hull grid is applied to the hull is an interesting point that
hasn't been addressed.  The grid could be located outside surface the hull,
inside the hull material, or on the inside surface of the hull. Where you
decide to place it will effect whether surface damage can prevent a ship
from jumping, and how much it will cost to add, repair, or replace the
grid.  Placing it on the outside surface would make it easiest to add or
repair, but would leave it most vulnerible to surface damage (either from
interaction with the system medium or combat. Placing it on the inside
surface would probably cost more to add or repair (unless you normally use
double hulls), but would protect it from surface damage.  Placed inside the
hull material would make it almost impossible to add after the fact, would
be quite difficult to repair, but would protect it from surface damage.

If the hull grid projects a field around the ship (for whatever reason
you've decided given your theory of how jump works) it is going to have to
project far enough out to cover any exterior features and externally
mounted vehicles.

Just some thoughts,


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:47:48 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
> it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
> something.
> 

Only my skills at coding the signal.  If you decipher it, I'm screwed. 
And that's war.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 19:02:33 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Ok, what if the opposing navy uses mine-layers to lay hundreds of
remote-activated jump-1 drives?  They'd have just enough fuel to create
a jump field for 30 sec or so.  would a fleet being caught in the middle
of a minefield like this get destroyed?  What would be the effects?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:28:48 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

J-Man wrote:
> 
> Ok, what if the opposing navy uses mine-layers to lay hundreds of
> remote-activated jump-1 drives?  They'd have just enough fuel to create
> a jump field for 30 sec or so.  would a fleet being caught in the middle
> of a minefield like this get destroyed?  What would be the effects?


Dependson how jspace and drive works in the game.  Anyway the purpose of
mine has never realy been to destroy fleets, but to inconvenience and
deny areas of opportunity to them.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 19:17:16 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> Perhaps on Sylea or Terra such a Paranoia-like supertechnological
> environment might exist, but I would find it too much of a headache to run
> or describe or keep consistent.  Inconsistency is easier to mask in the
> frontier...  Heh.
> 
> I would like to read your take on it, though.
> 

I don't yet have a 'take' on it.  I'd need to talk to some economic
professors, some sociologists, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:19:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Campaigns

In mail you write:

> That is an ok handwave.  But I'm working on fixing the problem and will
> solve it to my satisfaction within a year.
> I'm thinking along lines of cubic sectors with very high resolution
> isometric illustrations.  Joining sectors would be problemtic, but since
> each sector would have a coordinate and each world its own
> (x,y,z)position in its sector, it will be straighforward to figure
> distances.

I've seen a 3-d *model* of the nearest 20 or 30 stars. If you pick the
right sector size, and are good with wire and beads, you might be able
to *build* models of a 3-d sub-sector. Then you can just *look* at it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:16:33 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 05:59 pm 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Dave Golden wrote:
>
>>I'll cut it short here before I start lecturing about
public-key
>>crypto in general ...
>
>But it was just getting good. :-)  Ok, now I understand, it's
not just a
>matter of encryption, it also involves a number of variables
that I as your
>foe might not even think of.  Like the location bearing off a
marker or in
>an environment the altitude, or even the temperature.  The date
and time
>could be part of the signature and I suppose that if all
friendlies were
>coordinated before the assault, then even the variables could
change.  It
>was time and date Greenwich (sp.), but now it's time and date
IS.  Etc.
>Each change makes a new authenticator code and a new encryption
scheme.

	Doesn't even have to get that complicated, and in fact the more
complicated it gets, the more possibility of problems. The
encryption alone covers most of it. Breaking a full-strength
public/private keypair, a 20th century technology, is an
incredible feat at the same level of technology. If you're
actually trying to do it brute force--the easiest way is *brute*
force (i.e. beat the key out of its owner). It would be a fair
assumption that cryptosecurity and cryptoexploitation would both
advance about the same as always--security will usually be ahead,
but occasionally, the very cutting edge exploitation side may
pull even.

	Since you asked: Dave's brief primer on public key crypto, no
math needed (delete if not interested):

"Normal" or symmetric cryptography: you have a given algorithm or
process, and a secret key. Use the process to apply the key to
original message or plaintext, and you get the encrypted message,
also called cryptotext. Apply the  *same* key to the cryptotext,
and you recover the plaintext.

The main problem with this, assuming a sound algorithm, is key
exchange. If you wanted to send me something secure, you'd have
to find some secure way of getting the key to me so I can read
it. If you've already got a secure link with me, why not send the
message that way? And what if you want to send secure stuff to
Alice, too? If you use the same key you gave me, then I can
intercept and read that. So you've got to provide a different key
for Alice ... and of course Alice needs a separate key for me ...
and they've all got to be securely distributed.

Public key cryptography uses different mathematical principles to
come up with a key pair. Take the plaintext, apply one key, and
it CANNOT be decrypted with the same key! Only the other key will
decrypt it. Likewise, anything encrypted with the second key can
ONLY be decrypted with the first key.

This provides some very useful properties. I call one of the pair
my private key, and the other one my public key. Now, instead of
trying to find a secure way to get a key to you, I do the
opposite. I send it via email, I put it on public servers people
can read, I plaster it all over billboards, and shout it from the
rooftops. EVERYBODY has my public key. Anybody wants to send me
something secret, they use my public key to encrypt it--NOBODY
else can decrypt it with the public key, and I'm the only one who
has my secret key! If I want to send a secure reply, I use your
public key.

An additional feature is authentication, and that's how this
whole discussion got started. How do you know the message you got
from "David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>" really came from me?
It's incredibly simple to forge email headers, after all. Well,
remember how anything encrypted with one key can only be
decrypted with the other? What if I sign my message with my
private key? Then if it decrypts properly with my public key, you
KNOW the person who sent the message has to have the private key.
Since I'm theoretically the only one with the private key, you're
confident I sent it.

There are some simplifications in the above, of course, but
that's the basic idea. For more information, as well as a bunch
of other fascinating stuff, I'd recommend Bruce Schneier's
"Applied Cryptography, Second Edition," published by Wiley. He
gives a full and readable explanation of the basic concepts of
cryptography, a top-level explanation of the math, and full
algorithms and C code. The disk for the book has to be ordered
separately, as it's restricted under the International Trade in
Arms Regulation (ITAR) ... the book can be freely sent overseas,
but not the machine-readable version.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 04:29:27 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Sat, 7 Feb 98 17:25:18 +0100, Niko Wieleba wrote:

> Okay, folks....
> 
> Love it or hate it, the ad in the new Pyramid magazine has to be seen.  
> (That would be issue #28 for anyone that's counting.)
> 
> "Free Trader Beowulf...
> Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
> Can you hear me?
> Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
> Hang in there, Beowulf...
> ...help is on the way!
> 
> It gave me chills.

Actually, it makes me quite sick to my stomach.  The way it reads to me is
that *IG* is "Free Trader Beowulf" and Steve Jackson Games is going to
"rescue" Traveller-- all hail SJG!  Bah!

And as Phillip McGregor pointed out in another post, GURPS Traveller is
(almost without a doubt) the future of Traveller.  Again-- Bah!

Traveller's future has always been in the hands of the *people* that play
the game.  The original Beowulf dialog on the front box cover of CT was
aimed at would-be players, IMHO, giving them the opportunity to play
characters coming to the rescue of Free Trader Beowulf.  I'm sure it
*could* be interpreted as an answering hail to that cry for help circa 1105
(thus keeping the timeline flowing), but considering the timing of the
advertisement and IG's current "problems", I somehow doubt it.

> Also, in SJ Games News on page 5 is a bit of information about the 1998 
> release of GURPS Traveller and their tentative plans for its future.

Please tell us more.  I honestly can't see how a release schedule for GURPS
could even hope to keep up with what Traveler players have been used to in
the past.  Just like White Wolf and their five "storyteller" games-- after
a major release the supplements seem to move along quite quickly.  After a
while, however, you're down to one or two books a year (or the line gets
completely ignored altogether).  Or worse: Games Workshop-- where games
come and go, never to be seen again.  At least IG is dedicated towards
their one product and the T4 line will only disappear when IG finally does.
With Steve Jackson, they could drop Traveller support the moment something
else comes along.
 
> Count me still excited about any new Traveller product that comes out -- 
> regardless of who is producing it.

I guess so.  As long as it is aimed at Traveller *in general*, and not at
SJG's "non-rebellion, Strephon-is-still-alive, non-canon" universe.
Remember the huge stink that erupted when GDW released TNE-- with HEPlaR
drives replacing reactionless Thrusters?  How about when IG released system
after system for starship construction and/or combat and players bitched
about no backwards-compatibility with previous material?  Whatever SJG
comes up with that goes against everything in Traveller after 1116 will
make those debates look insignificant.

For those devoted fans that still play in the CT era, GURPS Traveller /may/
be a good thing.  However, for those that prefer to play in either the MT-,
TNE- and/or T4- eras, GURPS: Traveller would have to be pretty damn good to
make them switch over.  Why switch to a clunky, rule saturated system like
GURPS when they are already happily using a house-modified version of MT,
TNE, or T4.x?

How many of us can *HONESTLY* say that we will adopt the GURPS rules system
just to play in a non-canon SJG universe where much of what GDW and IG have
published is considered "non-canon"?  Especially when it means invalidating
the usefulness of many current and out-of-print Traveller supplements.

IMHO, the only ones that will gain from the release of GURPS Traveller is
SJG.

> As always, a Traveller fan,

Ditto.

Will the free trader Beowulf still be around when "help" finally shows up?
Let's hope so...



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:39:11 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re: 4th FW (long)

Sorry this is so long, but I thought others might be interested in this
period of history as well...


Here's some relative snippages from what I have on file:

THE FOURTH FRONTIER WAR (1082-1084)
	An incident near Quar/Cronor unintentionally began the war. A
series of battles ensued in the Jewell and Cronor subsectors. Neither side
was prepared, and the war was little more than a skirmish-compared to
earlier conflicts.
	Esalin (Jewell 0204) fell in the opening weeks. The Vargr and the
Zhodani jointly assaulted Jewell and Regina subsectors, but the initial
assaults stalled at the borders. Most of the later fighting occurred in
Jewell subsector.
	The final battle, the Battle of Two Suns, was fought midway between
Yres and Menorb. Losses on both sides were heavy, but the Imperium held the
field. Had the battle gone the other way, the loss of both Yres and Menorb
would have forced the evacuation of Efate and the collapse of the coreward
end of the Regina subsector. Instead, lengthening supply lines prevented
further outworld advances.
	Emperor Strephon had delegated war powers to Norris, Duke of
Regina. This brought a speedy end to a conflict that otherwise could have
been hampered by long delays in communications between Capital and the
front. An armistice ended the war after 18 months of fighting. Instructions
and reinforcements had not reached the Marches from the Imperial capital.
	The war resulted in some realignment of accepted boundaries, but in
no real gains for either side. The Imperium lost Narval/Chronor, but it
regained two worlds from the Sword Worlds. Esalin/Jewell shifted from
Imperial control to neutral status. A joint communiqu by the Imperial and
Zhodani governments declared Esalin a neutral world in 1098.


...and....


1082      1:  Fourth Frontier War (False War) begins in Spinward Marches.
GDW, Supplement 3 - The Spinward Marches, p. 4.
1082      2:  Esalin (1004 Spinward Marches) conquered by Zhodani. GDW,
Supplement 3 - The Spinward Marches, p. 12.
1082      3:  4518th Lift Infantry Regiment is imperialized to assist
Regina subsector border worlds against Zhodani invasion. GDW, The Spinward
Marches Campaign, p. 38.
1082      4:  154th Battle Rider squadron deploys in Jewell subsector for
the war. GDW, The Spinward Marches Campaign, p. 33.
1083      ?1:  Imperial naval base constructed on Quar (0808 Spinward
Marches). GDW, Adventure 6 - Expedition to Zhodane, p. 44.
1083      ?2:  Ine Givar attempts to recruit the Tanoose Freedom League on
Garda-Vilis (1118 Spinward Marches). GDW, Adventure 7 - Broadsword, p. 6.
1083      ?3:  First uprising of Jonkeereen (1324 Deneb) over forced
transplanting; tribes unite under Chief Tabali. DGP, The MegaTraveller
Journal #3, p. 92.
1084      ?1:  Maneuvre of Ganulph destroys the biosphere and atmosphere of
Ganulph (1307 Trojan Reach). GDW, Adventure 4 - Leviathan, p. 13.
1084      ?2:  Fourth Frontier War ends with Imperial victory at Battle of
Two Suns; Kinunir class colonial cruisers "Allumu" and "Ninkur Sagga" lost.
GDW, Supplement 3 - The Spinward Marches, p. 4.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 22:03:51 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On 02/07/98 at 05:19 PM,  Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> said:
 
>> May I respectfully submit, when you get to 50+ dt you are moving into the
>> realm of the "boat"..as in missle or torpedo boat.  Ok, maybe it's just a
>> difference in terminology, but I see screens of, slightly larger, MTB's

>I'm mearly talking about the official traveller universe, YMMV :-)

And I'm talking about a change in terminology not a change in how the
official Traveller universe works.

>The Heavy Fighter used in every ship in Sup.9 is 50 tons, they even have
>launch tubes for them. Actually the text even states that most ships have
>facilities to deal with these small craft!

I know, I'd just prefer to *call* them boats not fighters.  See, fighters
bring zip-zoom SW/BG to mind, I just don't see space combat working like
that (don't think you do either), and would like to avoid any potential
confusion. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #116
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 117



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: GenAssist is alive and well
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...
Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)
Re: Heplar
Re: winmail.dat
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Questions
History
Re: Fusion & HEPlaR
Re: Drawing questions
Re: Transponder problems
Re: Questions
Re: Lexicostatistical Glottochronology
Re: Questions
Re: Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:44:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...

In mail you write:

> *snicker*  The problem is, yes, NPCs, and in my own humorous way (humorous
> to me ;-) I was asking the populace at large how many of them even bother
> trying to feign accents to differentiate different "nationalities" (for lack
> of a better term)...  Along the same lines as the discussion of scents and
> scent memories that recently took place on the Dark Conspiracy list.  (I
> covertly open the vial of Chanel No. 5, and a chill horror begins to fill
> the room...)

As far as scents go, expose dome hardcore EPT players to the odor of
burnt cinnamon. Just don't do so if you are between them and any exits.
:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 98 22:29:13 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On 02/07/98 at 07:02 PM,  J-Man <j-man@iname.com> said:

>Ok, what if the opposing navy uses mine-layers to lay hundreds of
>remote-activated jump-1 drives?  They'd have just enough fuel to create a
>jump field for 30 sec or so.  would a fleet being caught in the middle of
>a minefield like this get destroyed?  What would be the effects?

Wow!  And they call *me* a heretic. ;->

Well...the effect you are describing certainly would throw Imperial naval
tactics on its ear. Just imagine, jump-mines...um, do they jump *into* the
middle of the enemy fleet or do they jump into jump space as the enemy
fleet passes by?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:42:22 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 03:19 PM 2/7/98 -0500, Douglas wrote:

>My own personal superstition.  If I bring a really good book to work, to
>read in our holding lot, I will not get a break all day.  sounds silly, but
>it works for me.

Boy - this is really getting far afield!  If I REALLY don't want to go to
work, I have to be creative with my excuses; if I simply call in sick, I
become so...  Calling in "Stupid" seems to work, though - at least I cannot
tell any difference in myself!  ;-)

Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 05:49:43 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:18:30 -0500, you wrote:


>I distinctly remember reading that the LL was developed around a long
>standing plan to defeat the US PacFleet at Pearl.  A one battle war.

The Long Lance was developed to defeat the Pacific Fleet at sea, not
in a surprise attack by aircraft. Nearly all the IJN's cruisers and
destroyers had it, as well as reloads for the torpedo tubes. With a
range triple that of the standard 21" torpedo in USN service, as well
as a higher speed, wakeless engines and a huge warhead, it came as a
major surprise in early WWII surface battles.

>I don't doubt that what you say is correct, but I cannot recall the
>reference I am drawing my memories from.  It distinctly detailed the
>japanese startegy and I remember my surprise at learning how that one 
>weapon had been so crucial to the strike.

Surprise was the greatest weapon used at Pearl Harbor, that and
complacency on the part of the USN.

Oddly enough, had the PH attack not taken place, both sides had a
similar plan to put into effect. The two surface fleets would have met
out near the Marianas Islands and engaged in the biggest surface
battle ever seen. Considering the skill of the IJN in night torpedo
attacks and their superiority in carrier airpower, it is just as well
for us that they did attack at Pearl.

At least most of the battleships sunk there were raised. Had they been
sunk at sea that would not have been possible.

John Lansford

http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:46:10 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: GenAssist is alive and well

At 04:23 PM 2/7/98 -0500, Kenji wrote:
>I'm pleased to have discovered one of their early marketing/PR campaigns
>around the 'Fin project.  For reasons unknown, SolSec arranged for it to be
>disguised in an alternative-spirituality form.  Nevertheless, it clearly
>points to loathsome medical experimentation by psionic Solomani
>bestialists....
>Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research

Hmmm...  I don't suppose any of these experiments took place in Seattle?

Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:59:58 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 
> I know, I'd just prefer to *call* them boats not fighters.  See, fighters
> bring zip-zoom SW/BG to mind, I just don't see space combat working like
> that (don't think you do either), and would like to avoid any potential
> confusion. ;->

True enough. I see carried craft (small ones) as MBTs, too :-) 

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:12:36 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...

At 07:44 PM 2/7/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
<snip>
>As far as scents go, expose dome hardcore EPT players to the odor of
>burnt cinnamon. Just don't do so if you are between them and any exits.
>:-)
Leonard,

Ahh the dread smell of the SSu(sp), if the exists are blocked/unuseable, I
will make on own exit, thru any *blockages* if needed.<G>
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:06:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)

Quoth Rob Prior:
> jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com writes:
> >I'd like a audio files (preferably .mid format) of the Imperial Anthem
> >...At the moment, there's another problem: neither has been written.
> 
> Actually, someone has written the Imperial Anthem.  IIRC, it's set to the
> Jupiter theme from Holst's The Planets.

Actually, you're recalling my Imperial Interstellar Scouts Service Anthem,
posted here a while back.  I'll have to dig through some archive disks to
find it -- the current TML archive is pretty search-unfriendly.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 21:31:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Heplar

In mail you write:

> Does anyone else find it odd that the development of HEPlaR stops at
> it's introduction?  Or for that matter, what about all the other
> systems that are introduced and never improved?  As useful as some of
> these things are, I would think that development would continue and
> the improvements could be introduced for a few tech levels anyway.
> Even if it is just for niche uses, they are there.

Some things *can't* be greatly improved over their original form. Both
electric motors and transformers were over 90% efficient from their
introduction. And they haven't improved much since. Thiey've gotten
lighter, and new materials make the remaining inefficiencies less
important.

You get improvements in things discovered before theory can explain
them. And in things where the technology limits how well the theory can
be applied (that's what happened with semiconductors). Others aren't
thought of until theory points them out. And then, if the
*implementation* technology allows, you wind up with a "perfected" tech
almost immediately.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 21:59:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

In mail you write:

> I think it's more than that - I've had the same problem using Microsoft 
> Outlook, which (with the Internet Mail Patch) is MIME compliant. I also (as 
> best I can tell) have the system set not to use the MIME rich text format - 
> should I turn that feature on?
>
> I apologize to everyone here for the inconvenience, I need to use a 
> Microsoft email program to be compatible with the office intranet where I 
> work - I know the solution is a simple one, but it has so far eluded me. 
> Anyone have some other ideas?

As I vaguely recall, you need to go into the addressbook (or whatever
they call it, the list of "frequent correspondents"), and if there
isn't an entry for the mailing list address *make* one. Then somewhere
in the prperties for that address you have to tell your mail program
that this *specific* address can't handle the RTF format.

You can't turn it off globally. You have to do it address by address. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 22:13:58 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> Wow!  And they call *me* a heretic. ;->
> 
> Well...the effect you are describing certainly would throw Imperial naval
> tactics on its ear. Just imagine, jump-mines...um, do they jump *into* the
> middle of the enemy fleet or do they jump into jump space as the enemy
> fleet passes by?
> 

I was thinking they would be stealth-shielded until the enemy fleet is
all around them, then they would all go into jump.  If a jump field near
a planet can do damage, I am assuming the same for the hapless fleet.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:40:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, James Lindsay wrote:
> Actually, it makes me quite sick to my stomach.  The way it reads to me is
> that *IG* is "Free Trader Beowulf" and Steve Jackson Games is going to
> "rescue" Traveller-- all hail SJG!  Bah!

I'm not employed by SJG but I've been following GURPS Traveller and from
what I've heard from SJG they have no intention of competing with IG
and are gearing their Traveller line to not compete.  This is a separate
product... it is GURPS rules with the Traveller history, primarily
CT.

> Traveller's future has always been in the hands of the *people* that play
> the game.  The original Beowulf dialog on the front box cover of CT was
> aimed at would-be players, IMHO, giving them the opportunity to play
> characters coming to the rescue of Free Trader Beowulf.  I'm sure it
> *could* be interpreted as an answering hail to that cry for help circa 1105
> (thus keeping the timeline flowing), but considering the timing of the
> advertisement and IG's current "problems", I somehow doubt it.

Remember that Pyramid has a lead time of almost two months... I'm sure
that the advertisement is just that, an ad.

> > Also, in SJ Games News on page 5 is a bit of information about the 1998 
> > release of GURPS Traveller and their tentative plans for its future.
> 
> Please tell us more.  I honestly can't see how a release schedule for GURPS
> could even hope to keep up with what Traveler players have been used to in
> the past.  Just like White Wolf and their five "storyteller" games-- after
> a major release the supplements seem to move along quite quickly.  After a
> while, however, you're down to one or two books a year (or the line gets
> completely ignored altogether).  Or worse: Games Workshop-- where games
> come and go, never to be seen again.  At least IG is dedicated towards
> their one product and the T4 line will only disappear when IG finally does.
> With Steve Jackson, they could drop Traveller support the moment something
> else comes along.

GURPS Traveleler is a GURPS product, not a replacement for Traveller.  If
you are currently playing T4 then it won't affect you.  The idea is to
get GURPS players playing Traveller... maybe they'll buy some T4 stuff
as a result...

> > Count me still excited about any new Traveller product that comes out -- 
> > regardless of who is producing it.
> 
> I guess so.  As long as it is aimed at Traveller *in general*, and not at
> SJG's "non-rebellion, Strephon-is-still-alive, non-canon" universe.
> Remember the huge stink that erupted when GDW released TNE-- with HEPlaR
> drives replacing reactionless Thrusters?  How about when IG released system
> after system for starship construction and/or combat and players bitched
> about no backwards-compatibility with previous material?  Whatever SJG
> comes up with that goes against everything in Traveller after 1116 will
> make those debates look insignificant.

GURPS Traveller is going to be aimed at the non-rebellion, Strephon-is-
still-alive, non-canon universe.  I think that this is part of the not
competing with IG thing.  I'm sure that you will be able to use the
GURPS rules and GURPS Traveller to convert and play in any era, though.
GURPS Traveller is explicitly a deviation from the standard Traveller
universe.

> For those devoted fans that still play in the CT era, GURPS Traveller /may/
> be a good thing.  However, for those that prefer to play in either the MT-,
> TNE- and/or T4- eras, GURPS: Traveller would have to be pretty damn good to
> make them switch over.  Why switch to a clunky, rule saturated system like
> GURPS when they are already happily using a house-modified version of MT,
> TNE, or T4.x?

GURPS is a perfectly good rules system that a lot of people use and
will make a fine Traveller game.  There's nothing wrong with Traveller's
systems, though, and nothing to force anyone to change.

> How many of us can *HONESTLY* say that we will adopt the GURPS rules system
> just to play in a non-canon SJG universe where much of what GDW and IG have
> published is considered "non-canon"?  Especially when it means invalidating
> the usefulness of many current and out-of-print Traveller supplements.

GURPS Traveller is not trying to steal customers from T4.  The point is
to make it different... it will appeal to CT players who want to keep
playing in that universe...  I know it appeals to me.

> IMHO, the only ones that will gain from the release of GURPS Traveller is
> SJG.

And all the GURPS players who find that they enjoy the Traveller universe
and all the Traveller players who find something they like in the GURPS
supplements and possibly IG if GURPS players start buying T4 supplements
to add to their collection.

Frankly I don't see how GURPS Traveller can do anything but help.  At
worst it will fail and be ignored.  At best it will encourage more
people to play Traveller.

> Will the free trader Beowulf still be around when "help" finally shows up?
> Let's hope so...

Yes, let's hope...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:49:25 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 01:39:18 -0800 J-Man <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>I was wondering how life would be in the 24th century.  Let's say, for
>the sake of arguement, that by then, personal nano-factories are
>commonplace.  How would this affect world economics?  How would
>terrorism be held in check?  Would nanobots be programmed against
>fabricating dangerous weapons for sick individuals?

I would expect nano-tech to thrive in the medical field the most.  Other
industries would be too regulated or have paranoia hindering any
advances.  Medical nanobot solutions to many problems would be treated as
pharmaceuticals are now.

Nanobots would be treated like other biological weapons of mass
destruction.  Of course, individual acts of terroism will occur.  

If nanobots were used as weapons then anti-nanobot nanobots would be
made.

>Also, would money fade as a source of wealth, to be replaced by
>resources in this new baroque period?  Seeing how anyone could
>'fabricate' what they want, the only things worth fighting over would 
>be the resources to feed their nanofactories.

Trade would depend on what is valuable to others.  Even if you could
fabricate everything you need in the 24th century, there will always be
things you want that may be unique to another planet.  Maybe, it takes a
while to make a copy.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:39:37 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> Trade would depend on what is valuable to others.  Even if you could
> fabricate everything you need in the 24th century, there will always be
> things you want that may be unique to another planet.  Maybe, it takes a
> while to make a copy.


What I was getting at, is, when mankind has the ability to create
whatever he/she wants, the only thing still needed would be the
RESOURCES to create with.  Even NanoFabs need matter to create with.

I was wondering if RESOURCES would be the new monetary unit?

Also, with the advent of medical nanobots, would mankind create
immortality?  i.e., 'bots that constantly repaor cell damage, thus
eliminating the aging process?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:40:49 -0800
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Questions

 Hi, here are the q's!

1. If you compare to fighters and capships in movies, how would the speed
and agility be like? Are they sluggish and easy to shoot down?

2. In old Megatraveller the laser turrets were like heavy machine guns i
construction, easy to use and slim in design. In new traveller they look
like a giant looking glass.. As if they just invented laser, and that's
pre-war lasers. Why is that?

3. Why is it no one has invented a nice particle/energy screen to diminish
laser fire?

4. How about organic ships? You talked about that on the TML?

5. And could someone pleease tell me what the heck "canon" is!?! I see it
all the time and no one says what it is. It would simplify the matter of
understanding.

6. NONTRAVELLER QUESTION, please forgive me. (crawling in the dust)
In wingcommander i get it the jump points transports a ship in an instant
with no time consumed. Can this fenomena exist in traveller? (as a rare
phenomena)

Thanx from Goran

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 02:48:55 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: History

Without breaking too many copyright laws, would anyone be willing to post
a brief summary of the history of the Imperium (and corresponding game
edition)?

I have the original series (little black books) and will probably not buy
any other editions for quite a while.  

I'm hoping this summary will help me keep up with some of the postings on
TML.   Also, I love history, both real and in Traveller.

Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 09:50 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Fusion & HEPlaR

Moin Merrick Burkhardt,

> Would they have yachts at that TL anyway? 

	translation warning ;-( 

	The Yacht is a versalite diplomatic vessel used by ambassadors
	and coorperation representatives. Is can also be used as a
	science and exploration vessel as it has 2 small crafts. It
	is capable of J1 has a software of 2/4 standard, crew 4,
	a 4th seat and place for a MDF is spared on the bridge. 10
	small, 1 large stateroom, large common area. The CT ship
	is able to jump 3 times in a row with 11dt cargo, or with
	49dt when used on a main. The unstreamlined version was given
	at 51MCr, while the streamlined version was 2MCr more
	expensive.

	- about canon : and old german magazien called mythos feb/84 ;-)

> My point is that the only time I bet you start seeing yachts on a
> TL10 world is when there are higher TLs around anyway.

	I think Vilanis at tl:B had a lot of them. In FFS1 the Yacht
	was even cheaper at 40MCr/TL:A and had 2G. In FFS2 this ship
	would need fusion rockets and a fission plant reducing it 0.?G
	and non streamlined only ;-(

> That's what they should be. And on purpose. A T-plate missile is
> very, very dangerous. The whole idea was they they should be very
> expensive--too expensive, in fact. Missiles in traveller haven't
> been t-plates before (the Missiles Supplement from the old JTAS
> doesn't mention them :-)

	The problem arise of course with TPlates. HEPlaR's energy
	efficiency calls to the clue that HEPlaR must be a fusion
	process. TPlates are even more energy efficient, and they are
	even reactionless. Reducing the low techs now will make a
	problem of additional handwaving later when the minimum size of
	a pp is 1m3. If the minimum size of TPs is limited to lets say
	10dt at TL:11, 25m3 at TL:12. You'll see them in TL:11 warships
	and TL:12+ fighters. If additionaly HEPlaR is back to powered
	from everything, we would have the TL:A small ships but not the
	near C TPLated rocks.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 08:16 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Drawing questions

Moin David J. Golden,

> 	The hull grid is spread out over the surface of the entire ship,
> and the actual volume of the *grid* (not the rest of the drive)
> can be assumed negligible and included within the hull itself. It
> just occupies surface area.

	so its just a magical painting a ship must have to handwave jump. 

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 10:12 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Transponder problems

Moin David J. Golden,

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
> 
> iQCVAwUBNNyI0aQHFcepsd35AQGACQP/eLz6E18A7HcXKndBwAIANHvoVNaddwBU
> 56F3QAu2axHXywrFe5RVNsJBhlDC3V2FS0cSNy6+IqNnRyhsXySnfnR3EO9eoPcz
> A17MUo2a5OdFog0lCr7Vi6qX2//JvfofUbUYR0j6lt6RVQhGFX6Da2AcRuj8FYbg
> P2/3XmJ+uTo=
> =C67n
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

	transponder received :
	File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature. 
	Key matching expected Key ID A9B1DDF9 not found in file

	request for a fire control lock ! over

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 11:18 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Questions

Moin Goran Sjoberg,

> 1. If you compare to fighters and capships in movies, how would the speed
> and agility be like? Are they sluggish and easy to shoot down?

	the capital ships in traveller can be as many agile as a fighter,
	but often agility is reduced for more fire power, so from cruisers
	up a turtle syndrome (ships are imune to lower class ships, can
	stand quite a lot of fire from same class, and will die fast when
	facing a ten times larger oponent) shows.

> 2. In old Megatraveller the laser turrets were like heavy machine guns i
> construction, easy to use and slim in design. In new traveller they look
> like a giant looking glass.. As if they just invented laser, and that's
> pre-war lasers. Why is that?

	As its best to shoot fighers before they come in range with your
	weapons, ships have larger lasers and better sensors to have a
	higher range. Capital ships additionaly have spinal mount against
	other capital ship ships.

> 3. Why is it no one has invented a nice particle/energy screen to diminish
> laser fire?

	They have its called sandcaster and is versalite also agains
	sensors.

> 4. How about organic ships? You talked about that on the TML?

	Not yet.

> 5. And could someone pleease tell me what the heck "canon" is!?! I see it
> all the time and no one says what it is. It would simplify the matter of
> understanding.

	Canon is from the german canon where its priest prayers songs.
	For real its the shorthand of canonic.

> 6. NONTRAVELLER QUESTION, please forgive me. (crawling in the dust)
> In wingcommander i get it the jump points transports a ship in an instant
> with no time consumed. Can this fenomena exist in traveller? (as a rare
> phenomena)

	Instand FTL would address some implicit time paradoxa, for this
	reason canon is that nothing is faster than ship, and a ship
	take one week regardless wether it jumps from terra to jupiter
	or bernard star or even up to 36 parsec.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 05:49:22 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Lexicostatistical Glottochronology

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> I hope this thread lives long enough for me to jump on it in about a week,
> when I have time.  Until then, I just can't let pass --
>
> Stevie D wrote:
> [snip]
> >In this area, its interesting to think about Chinese and other Pictogram,
> >i.e., non-phonetic languages.  China has one written language, but since its
> >is pictograms and not phonetics, its pronounced in radically different ways.

[snip small bit]

> Chinese
>        is
>          not
>             a
>              "pictographic"
>                            (or "ideographic")
>                                              writing
>                                                     system.

Alright, you can't leave me hanging on this one.  How are Kanji not pictograms,
Kenji?
(oooh, bad pun, also slightly off since Kanji is the Japanese term - I have no
idea what the Chinese term is).  I see the Chinese paper every day at my news
stand.  The characters are Kanji [sic].  Looks like pictograms to me.  What am I
missing?  (and please say more than something about a pictogram is a
representational drawing/symbol of the concept meant to be communicated, e.g.,
the character for "tree" looks like a tree).

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 03:47:43 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Questions

>  the capital ships in traveller can be as many agile as a fighter,
>         but often agility is reduced for more fire power, so from cruisers
>         up a turtle syndrome (ships are imune to lower class ships, can
>         stand quite a lot of fire from same class, and will die fast when
>         facing a ten times larger oponent) shows.
> 


Yes indeed, under the CT rules in High Guard, I had a 2 million ton
spherical planetoid type ship with better agility rating then most
fighters.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 03:50:17 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Questions

> > 3. Why is it no one has invented a nice particle/energy screen to diminish
> > laser fire?
> 
>         They have its called sandcaster and is versalite also agains
>         sensors.


I don't think Sandcasters are what he had in mind.  All they are is
canisters of sand particles that obscure laser beams.  I think he meant
a forcefield of charged particles as a barrier to beam weapons.

I'm not sure that's workable, and probably not 'Canon'..:)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #117
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 118



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Transponder problems
Re: Silent auction
Re: winmail.dat
Re: Jump drives
Re: Flat Campaigns
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
M0/Fighter Impact WAS Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: chair dogs
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: chair dogs
Re: Transponder problems
Spooks, spokes, and pee-gee-pee (was RE: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation)
Re: Transponder problems
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Traveller Map and Real Stars
Re: Campaigns
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Campaigns
Re: GenAssist is alive and well
Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...
The jumpdrive debate

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 03:52:25 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder problems

> Moin David J. Golden,
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> > Charset: noconv
> > 
> > iQCVAwUBNNyI0aQHFcepsd35AQGACQP/eLz6E18A7HcXKndBwAIANHvoVNaddwBU
> > 56F3QAu2axHXywrFe5RVNsJBhlDC3V2FS0cSNy6+IqNnRyhsXySnfnR3EO9eoPcz
> > A17MUo2a5OdFog0lCr7Vi6qX2//JvfofUbUYR0j6lt6RVQhGFX6Da2AcRuj8FYbg
> > P2/3XmJ+uTo=
> > =C67n
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
>         transponder received :
>         File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature. 
>         Key matching expected Key ID A9B1DDF9 not found in file
> 
>         request for a fire control lock ! over
> 


That's a 'GO' Alpha One, you are clear to fire.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:44:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Silent auction

In mail you write:

> I read a book, "Hellspark", in which a silent auction is described.
>
> The traders land, set out their stuff in piles of whatever size they =
> wish.  The locals come in and place stuff they would offer in the =
> vicinity of an offering.  If the traders like what's being offered and =
> will settle for the amount offered, they move their stuff closer to the =
> local's stuff.  If they like it but it's not enough, they remove stuff =
> from their pile or move their pile a short distance away from the =
> offering.  If they don't like the offered goods, they move their stuff =
> to another location.  Then the locals come in and add to their piles or =
> move them closer or remove them.  This process continues until all =
> parties are satisfied with the amounts in the pile right next to theirs.
>
> The ship's ruler's mother (the power behind the power) confiscated some =
> "naughty magazines" from the young men in her son's command.  They =
> eventually get a small pile of local gems for each page (with photo) for =
> them, so all in all, it can be quite profitable to deal with aliens like =
> these.  Everyone leaves happy, and nary a word is spoken.  What can be =
> better than this?

That's a *direct* steal from Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy". And as
Heinlein notes, the idea goes back to Pheonican traders bartering with
African natives!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:16:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: winmail.dat

In mail you write:

The "equal" is converted to a dollar sign, so that the text won't get
reconverted:

> BTW, does anyone have any problems with my using the extended ASCII
> characters like "$B2 " or "$B3".  Since this missive contains them, it sho$
> uld be
> a clear indicator.  If you have a problem and want me to stop using them,
> let me know.

You can see from the above that they come thru in "quoted printable"
format which doesn't do me a lot of good (especially note the "split
line" mess).

Also, If I convert (by hand) the above I get a shaded box char for the
B2, and a single vertical line graphics char for the B3. Checking my
references, I suspect that they started out as a superscript 2 and
superscript 3 respectively.

For a Mac, they are the trademark symbol and not equal sign (QuickDraw
chars) or 1/4 and 1/2 (MacLatin).

I could go one and list what they are on other systems I own, but I
trust that you get the idea. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:50:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump drives

In mail you write:

>>Meseems I've done nothing else for a long time now. From the time all the
>>fuel has been used to the time the ship enters jumpspace there is a
>>measurable span of time. In CT it is only a few seconds (just enough to
>>allow drop tanks to be hurled away from the ship by the use of explosive
>>bolts (evidently there is not enough time to separate by less destructive
>>mechanical means)), but nevertheless at least several seconds; a lifetime
>>in electromagnetic events. If all that fuel was turned into a huge amount
>>of energy, where is it during those seconds?

Actually, explosive bolts are far from destructive. They are
*frequently* used currently when you have something that has to be
attached securely, but you either can't afford the *hours* of time
unbolting will take, or you can't afford the *stresses* that an uneven
disconnect would cause.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:07:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

In mail you write:

> What's with all this hand waving about the flat maps.  When the players ask
> why they are flat, I say, "Because this is a 2 dimensional representation of
> the 3 dimensional reality."
>
> If they don't like that, I say, "Hey lighten up, it's only a game."

If I'm ever in that situation I'll dig out the Star Force: Alpha
Centauri star map, point out a star, and ask then to tell me what stars
are within jump 3 of it. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:12:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

In mail you write:

> I was wondering how life would be in the 24th century.  Let's say, for
> the sake of arguement, that by then, personal nano-factories are
> commonplace.  How would this affect world economics?  How would
> terrorism be held in check?  Would nanobots be programmed against
> fabricating dangerous weapons for sick individuals?

Dig around for collections of stories by John Brunner. One collection
has the three "Galactic Consumer reports" articles he wrote. One is
about "twin tube wishing machines" which are essentially an enhanced
nano-factory that builds from the user's mental images. 

He covers the shortcomings pretty well. For example, one planet had a
kid get access to the family machine, which had a faulty "censor unit"
(he calls it something else). So the kid, who is upset at not having
been given an ice cream sundae for desert, creates a bunch of
super-robot soldiers and conquers the planet. He has a mile long soda
fiuntain built. There's a comment that things are expected to return to
normal in a few years as he'll have died from improper diet by then. :-)

> Also, would money fade as a source of wealth, to be replaced by
> resources in this new baroque period?  Seeing how anyone could
> 'fabricate' what they want, the only things worth fighting over would be
> the resources to feed their nanofactories.

The resources are all around you. Anything capable of nano-fabrication
can also *dis*-assemble stuff. So you can feed in junk plus energy and
get out what you want. As long as you stick to the *practical* side of
things, you don't rerally need all that much of the harder to find
elements. 

What will be valuable are the "design" patterns you feed into the
system so it knows *how* to build something. A Star Trek replicator
isn't much good without a databsase of stuff to replicate. :-)

Dig through the archives. I went into this at *great* length a year or
two back.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:54:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

In mail you write:

>>>What's an IFF tag?
>>
>> Identification Friend/Foe--special encrypted info usually added
>>to transponders so's you can tell the difference ...
>
> So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
> it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
> something.

Which part of my signal is the encrypted IFF, and what part is "junk"?
And remember that it changes from second to second.

One method is for the transponder to read a code in the interrogate
pulse (the "challenge"), and return a code based on that. This means
that unless you know the codes, you'd be responding with the response
to the *previous* pulse. Which makes it *really* clear that you are
trying to spoof the IFF. :-)

Challenge:	53 87  (encrypted)
Response:	4611   (encrypted)
Challenge:	81 63
Response:	5103
.....

In the above example, the challenge is sending a pair of numbers, and
the response is returning the product of the numbers. In reality, it
gets a lot more complicated.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:48:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>Well that may be so, so you just arm your fighters with longer-ranged
>missles (ship busters) equipped with their own ECM and such.  You'd want
>them IFF tagged as well, so your own missles don't come after you!

And the cost of each missile is getting close to a fighters' cost.

Unfortunately, fighters aren't really viable against capital ships. In very
big massed swarms, maybe, but they are viable in the small
ship/anti-piracy/ground support element.

(note the same type of definite kill range applies to missiles as it does
to fighters)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:11:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: M0/Fighter Impact WAS Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> wrote:

>Small fighters somehow turning the tide (grossly, as suggested by
>T4) is rather goofy, IMO.

Merrick, my reading of M0 was that the fighter gave the Imperium an edge in
destroying the piracy problem in Core. The actual absorption of systems
into Cleon's new empire was done by the Imperial Navy's capital vessels or
economic domination. Fighters were more critical in breaking the back of
the problems stopping trade. IMO, of course.

Dom
(entertained by the restart of the fighter thread).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:50:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:


On Dune...

>Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel played
>it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie make
>more sense.

Do you know if they ever released it on video in that format?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 04:51:56 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> What will be valuable are the "design" patterns you feed into the
> system so it knows *how* to build something. A Star Trek replicator
> isn't much good without a databsase of stuff to replicate. :-)
> 
> Dig through the archives. I went into this at *great* length a year or
> two back.
> 


What are "achives", where are they accessed, and how can I search for
your dissertations specifically?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 04:53:44 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

> >Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel played
> >it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie make
> >more sense.
> 
> Do you know if they ever released it on video in that format?
> 
> Dom

I don't think so.  Look for "Director's Cut".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:07:54 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Transponder problems

J-Man wrote:
> 
> > Moin David J. Golden,
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> > > Charset: noconv
> > >
> > > iQCVAwUBNNyI0aQHFcepsd35AQGACQP/eLz6E18A7HcXKndBwAIANHvoVNaddwBU
> > > 56F3QAu2axHXywrFe5RVNsJBhlDC3V2FS0cSNy6+IqNnRyhsXySnfnR3EO9eoPcz
> > > A17MUo2a5OdFog0lCr7Vi6qX2//JvfofUbUYR0j6lt6RVQhGFX6Da2AcRuj8FYbg
> > > P2/3XmJ+uTo=
> > > =C67n
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >         transponder received :
> >         File has signature.  Public key is required to check signature.
> >         Key matching expected Key ID A9B1DDF9 not found in file
> >
> >         request for a fire control lock ! over
> >
> 
> That's a 'GO' Alpha One, you are clear to fire.  :)


(In voice of Rick Moranis out of Ghostbusters)

Boyyy, Ahhm glad Ahhm just a little ol starliner out here....I know
those  fighter guys don't ever engage beyond visual range 'cause they
don't issue us military transponder codes.

Its good to know someone's out here protecting the spacelanes from
thoase nasty doggy Vargr raider guys, so I can get all they nice, paying
passengers to Dentus.  I love the Imperial military except when they
board me.

Hey...whats that...it looks like a..miss....ooooooooooooooooooooooh!


Dentus/Regina (0601-C979500-A) Date: 176-1110
According to Admiralty sources Imperial gunship units mistakenly engaged
and destroyed the Moranis starliner Strange Brew late yesterday evening.
Naval elements and system rescue forces are responding, but due to the
lethatlity of weapons involved little hope is held for survivors.
A spokesman for the Admiralty cited poor adherance to visual
identification rules of engagement , and stressed all pilots would be
briefed on the necessity to properly identify targets in the future. He
also went on to state that transcripts show a partial and improper
identification took place from the starliner's IFF, resulting in an
"engage green" verification to the units operating insystem during Vargr
cleanup operations. 
Forces from Vice-Admiral Elphinstone's command have been ordered to
stand down for a period of one day to review rules of engagement in this
heavily transited civilian system.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 08:12:22 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: Spooks, spokes, and pee-gee-pee (was RE: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation)

Dave and company:
[antagonsistic statments snipped]
> 	Theoretically, yes, the analysis can be done. The usual quotes
> thrown around by those semi in the know start with a timeframe
> greater than the age of the universe and go up from there,
> though. It ain't nearly as easy as you seem to think it is.

With current technology and algorithms.

> >But if I did feel the need and had a use for it, I feel sure
> >that I could.

Umm, okay.  I've have problems writing simple C++ windoze apps, so I'll take
your word for it, Richard.

> 	I will bet you every single last cent I own that you cannot do
> it. I'd suggest actually looking into cryptography before making
> such blanket statements. And if you CAN do it, you'd better watch
> out for the NSA--they'd be very interested.

Carefull what you bet, Dave.  What did he counter-offer?  Heh.  I would tend
to agree with you at this point, however, you are assuming one thing which
may not in fact be the case: did anyone but you take the time to evaluate
the message or sig?  I didn't, even though I have the tools to do so -- it's
a big pain in the Aslan, and I've not been impressed with *any* email client
that's attempted integration with PGP.  Most people like their privacy, but
the economic time tradeoff of using electronic envelopes is still too high
for most "honest" people (like there are any! I'm a cynic today - forgot to
take the medication).  Besides, no one that I correspond with wants the
hassle, and it's not important to me as I haven't decided yet how to bomb
the... oh, nevermind!  Heh.

For military applications, it would definitely be useful and used, I hope,
but civilians are lazy, and most would certainly be taken in by a forged
post with a public key sig on it that looked like it was from you (hell, it
wouldn't even have to be your own key -- we could make a new public key with
the name Dave Golden as the owner, sign the message, and even register it
with a public key server or two as YOURS, and then sign the message, spoof
your email address, and viola, you just threatened the UN Secretary
General's life via email -- try and explain it away in court that you never
had the key in question on your easily erased electronic storage media...
presumption of innocence only applies after the kind and gentle officers of
the law get you to court, if you get there -- ask Steve Jackson).
Cryptography is only as good as the security of the keys and how the
veracity of the key holders' identities can be determined: ultimately it
comes back to physical security.

[Note: new, hopefully, ascii safe .sig!]

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 06:09:45 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder problems

> Dentus/Regina (0601-C979500-A) Date: 176-1110
> According to Admiralty sources Imperial gunship units mistakenly engaged
> and destroyed the Moranis starliner Strange Brew late yesterday evening.
> Naval elements and system rescue forces are responding, but due to the
> lethatlity of weapons involved little hope is held for survivors.
> A spokesman for the Admiralty cited poor adherance to visual
> identification rules of engagement , and stressed all pilots would be
> briefed on the necessity to properly identify targets in the future. He
> also went on to state that transcripts show a partial and improper
> identification took place from the starliner's IFF, resulting in an
> "engage green" verification to the units operating insystem during Vargr
> cleanup operations. 
> Forces from Vice-Admiral Elphinstone's command have been ordered to
> stand down for a period of one day to review rules of engagement in this
> heavily transited civilian system.
> 

And in other news, a single transmission was intercepted from the
starliner.  Apparently it's captain thought the Vargr were attacking,
from this little bit of voice transmission :

"Hey, nice doggie...How 'bout a milkbone, eh?"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 06:11:40 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> Dig around for collections of stories by John Brunner. One collection
> has the three "Galactic Consumer reports" articles he wrote. One is
> about "twin tube wishing machines" which are essentially an enhanced
> nano-factory that builds from the user's mental images. 
> 

I would think John Brunner's works would be way too outdated to be of
any consequence?  Or has he written anything since the 70's?  Last book
I read was "Total Eclipse".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:05:00 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Dead Eye wrote:


>Douglas E. Berry wrote:


>> You, being a sneaky devil, dial your IFF
>> box to the other side's code.  Meanwhile, your wingman picks you up,
>> interrogates the bogey, and doesn't get a return.  He launches an
anti-ship
>> missile and brags about bagging the retreating enemy, and everybody
wonders
>> whatever happened to you...
>
>Or you don't see the allied identification markings on a British APC in
>the heat of combat, and bag it as an "enemy."
>Good IFF among allies would/should have prevented that.
>(Don't think I could live with myself after an incident like that
>one...)

I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 09:52:58 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> Dead Eye wrote:

> I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
> Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
> Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?


Yes.  Better have the correct days codes though, or you will wind up
with the correct box but squawking yestredays code.  This shows up as a
"negative" interrogation, meaning the fighter marks you as

"Kill me, please"

How to get the correct codes?  Seeing as the can change very fast and
multiple times(ie what was good 1 hour ago ain't good anymore,) fat
chance.

How do they change?  Manually.  Its a huge pain in the butt to remember
to swap squawks especially since you may be "busy" at the time dodging
rocks, fighters, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 09:55:16 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Traveller Map and Real Stars

Stevie D (aka Bloo) wrote:
> 
> Just wondering if any astronomy minded of you out there have ever tried
> to plot out where Traveller stars would fall in our sky?  Since there
> are several real stars in the traveller map, (Antares, Vega, etc.,
> etc.), it'd be interesting to see what parts of our sky are in the Third
> Imperium, are Vargyr, Aslan, etc.
> 
> Of course, even though it might be non-cannon, it would be neat to
> generate a traveller map of the real stars in the same areas, at least
> as well as we can see it.  And since you could ignore that pesky third
> dimension, you could make it fit, so to speak.
> 
> Bloo

Problem with 2D is a lot of those familiar stars are scattered
vertically.  You culd build a real map of stars in a 1 parsec 2D plane
of Sol, but it would be very empty.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:04:22 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Campaigns

Stevie D (aka Bloo) wrote:
> 
> deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
> 
> > That is an ok handwave.  But I'm working on fixing the problem and will
> > solve it to my satisfaction within a year.
> > I'm thinking along lines of cubic sectors with very high resolution
> > isometric illustrations.  Joining sectors would be problemtic, but since
> > each sector would have a coordinate and each world its own
> > (x,y,z)position in its sector, it will be straighforward to figure
> > distances.
> 
> Have you considered starting at good ol' Sol and then working your way out?
> Either using real stars or trying to reconcile traveller map stars with real
> ones?  Might be interesting.
> 
> Bloo


I'm currently detailing an area in the Aquila Rift.  Contrary to popular
thought in Trav rifts are not voids.  Instead they are areas of immense
dust(compression) clouds.  They are unnaviagle by jdrive due to the fact
you can't see what is in there and range it properly.

Starcharting with elements like true rifts requires 3D.

As for Sol centered, 2300 near star map did that quite nicely out to
50ly.  The chart went no further, but with the Hipparcos data now
becoming available for the entire girth of the Imperium I think I'll
have a valid 3D image of Imperial/charted space within a year or two.

A problem is the sheer mass of data.  Could be tough.  Hipparcos imaged
600,000(?) systems out to 300ly(?)  Corrections requested here

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:02:31 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:05:00 -0600, you wrote:


>I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
>Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
>Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?
>
First, how did you get it?

Second, there are many, many settings for an IFF transponder to be set
at. Pilots and vehicle drivers are given that setting right before a
mission. You might have the equipment but no way of knowing what
setting to use.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:06:49 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Campaigns

> I've seen a 3-d *model* of the nearest 20 or 30 stars. If you pick the
> right sector size, and are good with wire and beads, you might be able
> to *build* models of a 3-d sub-sector. Then you can just *look* at it.


True, but storage becomes a problem and I want to stack and rotate
sectors atop each other to give an overall picture. Neither does this
image the dust clouds and other stellar debris I want in my game.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 08:09:38 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: GenAssist is alive and well

Bill Rutherford wrote:

>At 04:23 PM 2/7/98 -0500, Kenji wrote:
>>I'm pleased to have discovered one of their early marketing/PR campaigns
>>around the 'Fin project.  For reasons unknown, SolSec arranged for it to be
>>disguised in an alternative-spirituality form.  Nevertheless, it clearly
>>points to loathsome medical experimentation by psionic Solomani
>>bestialists....
>>Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
>
>Hmmm...  I don't suppose any of these experiments took place in Seattle?

Nope, we got the octopus project.  Biggest in the world, right out my
window in Puget Sound.

I mean.... uh... we work on building telepathic contact with them!  Yeah!
Sharing, like, PHILOSOPHY and, and, chakras, and stuff!  Not DNA at all.
No, no, no.

Ia Cthulhu,

- ------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                     Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                    kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 08:33:04 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: In space, no one can hear your accent...

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>As far as scents go, expose dome hardcore EPT players to the odor of
>burnt cinnamon. Just don't do so if you are between them and any exits.
>:-)

Someday soon (relatively speaking), the mssuranonultuplanssugadalisa will
be appearing on Freelance Traveller as a new "minor race" for Traveller...
feedback/collaboration from others familiar with both the Third and Petal
Throne Empires will be requested.

- ------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                     Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                    kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:25:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: The jumpdrive debate

Those of you stating that the use of LHyd Drop tanks damages proves that
the hydrogen jump bubble is unnecessary should bear in mind that the text
on FFS2 p12 also mentions the existance of surge tanks in the jump drive.
Thus the LHyd doesn't have to be all burned prior to jump - some could be
held in the surge tanks to form the bubble.

This thread (IMO) is getting alnost as bad as the one on Pirates a few
months ago.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #118
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 119



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Answers WAS Questions
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Questions
Re: Jump drives
Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE
Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)
Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE
Re: Heplar
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: History
Re: Drawing questions
Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE
Meson Guns & Ship Screens (Long and technical)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:20:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Answers WAS Questions

Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se> wrote:

>1. If you compare to fighters and capships in movies, how would the speed
>and agility be like? Are they sluggish and easy to shoot down?

Acceleration with thruster plates peaks at 6G - I believe you can combine
the T-Plates with Heplar etc to get higher acceleration, but it all links
back to power plant size, which is bigger on capital ships... With the
acceleration capped by the technology used (and the crew's ability to
handle high G), the top speed will end up being limited by hull materials
and dust density in space. As far as I know Traveller doesn't simulate
these limitations.


>2. In old Megatraveller the laser turrets were like heavy machine guns i
>construction, easy to use and slim in design. In new traveller they look
>like a giant looking glass.. As if they just invented laser, and that's
>pre-war lasers. Why is that?

It came out of FFS1 and the move to more 'realistic' technologies. FFS1
changed the technology in Traveller a fair bit (threw out T-Plates, changed
the depiction of lasers, changed the missile types). Some of the
differences are reconciled in T4's FFS2

>3. Why is it no one has invented a nice particle/energy screen to diminish
>laser fire?

They have - it has been in Traveller since CT, and is called a sandcaster
which is basically device which ejects a cloud of ablative material and
manipulates it using electromagnetic fields. The lasers have to burn
through this.

>4. How about organic ships? You talked about that on the TML?

Not to my knowledge. You mean like Shadow and Vorlon technology in B5? IMO
it could be done in Traveller, just it would be TL18+. I seem to remember
that the higher technology hull materials can be manipulated in a limited
way.

>5. And could someone pleease tell me what the heck "canon" is!?! I see it
>all the time and no one says what it is. It would simplify the matter of
>understanding.

Canon was explained a few digests back, but basically relates to the
previously printed background of the Imperium. Things that are 'canon
breaking' would either contradict or change the Traveller background as
previously published. For example TL14/15 artifacts used by the Second
Imperium/Rule of Man/Ramshackle Empire when MT sources place the highest TL
achieved lower than that. Canon is used in the sense of 'fundamental
law/rule/fact'.

In some ways debates like the current Jump technology one go off at a
tangent from what canon is, even though they exchange salvos quoting it.
For ex: What we really know about jump is that:

- - it takes around 1 week
- - it involves a translation to another dimension during which ship is held
in a bubble of normal space
- - it requires a jump drive which uses hydrogen fuel.

>6. NONTRAVELLER QUESTION, please forgive me. (crawling in the dust)
>In wingcommander i get it the jump points transports a ship in an instant
>with no time consumed. Can this fenomena exist in traveller? (as a rare
>phenomena)

If you implement this, do it sparingly if you want to maintain the
Traveller universe as it is. One of the fundamentals of the universe is
communication limited to the speed of jump. Instant FTL increases this
speed. However, The Long Way Home and Secret of the Ancients both involved
ways of instantaneous travel.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:51:08 EST
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

In a message dated 98-02-07 13:25:43 EST, you write:

<< The missiles still would lack the power to inflict significant damage
 unless used in large numbers (1000's? 100's?).  The reason the IJN
 was able to make the Pearl Harbor attack was due to their development
 of the "Long Lance" oxygen torpedo, the preeminent weapon of its type
 and time, specifically designed to destroy capital ships sitting at
 rest in Pearl. ISYN. >>

The "long lance" torpedoes Type 93 and 95 were exceptional in all regards.
Their speed of 45knots with a ranges of 27,000 plus yards made them formidable
weapons, but the torpedoes used in the attack on Pearl Harbor were not "long
lances"; they were earlier models powered by simple gasoline/air engines,
IIRC.  

The long lance Type 93 was used by the Destroyers and Cruisers of the IJN
while the type 95s were used by their submarines.  I believe the Type 97 was a
possible air-launched model, but never caught on.

Oxygen propelled torpedoes are expensive and heavy.  Ship-ship combat requires
a fairly long-range engagement and, thus, a superior weapon.  Aircraft on the
other hand drop their torpedoes within hundreds of yards obviating the need
for a sophisticated weapon.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:45:47 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In a message dated 2/7/98 12:19:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< My own personal superstition.  If I bring a really good book to work, to
 read in our holding lot, I will not get a break all day.  sounds silly, but
 it works for me.
 -- >>

It's funny, I thought I was the only one that happened to.  I lug about 20+
pounds of my Traveller books around to work every day...If I have them there,
I NEVER have time to get them out of my pack, but if I don't have them, I
spend the whole day sitting bored, wishing that I did!  :-)

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:51:41 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Questions

At 2:40 PM -0500 2/7/98, Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> Hi, here are the q's!
>
>1. If you compare to fighters and capships in movies, how would the speed
>and agility be like? Are they sluggish and easy to shoot down?

One thing no one accounts for in any ship design system I've ever seen
is that bigger ships will have a theoretical maximum acceleration that
is lower than smaller ships.  This is because the strength of a support
structure is dependent on the cross sectional area while the mass (and
therefore the force it generates when under acceleration) is dependent
on the volume.  As an example, if you take a column that is 10 meters
tall and 1 meter by 1 meter in cross section and masses, say, 50 tons,
then the stress is going to be 50 tons/square meter.  If you double
the size of the column to 20 meters tall by 2 meters by 2 meters, then
the mass will be 400 tons and the cross sectional area will be 4 square
meters.  The stress is going to be 100 tons/square meter.  This is
why a larger ship with the same acceleration would require a much
heavier structure to support itself while under acceleration.  This
doesn't necessarily mean that fighters will be effective in combat
since capital ships can still mount hundreds or thousands of small
turrets each one the size of a fighter with the mobility to track and
destroy them but it does mean that small craft will have an edge in
maneuverability and will be able to make trips faster since they can
afford to accelerate at a higher acceleration.

>5. And could someone pleease tell me what the heck "canon" is!?! I see it
>all the time and no one says what it is. It would simplify the matter of
>understanding.

Canon means 'official'.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:54:16 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jump drives

At 2:50 AM -0500 2/8/98, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>Meseems I've done nothing else for a long time now. From the time all the
>>>fuel has been used to the time the ship enters jumpspace there is a
>>>measurable span of time. In CT it is only a few seconds (just enough to
>>>allow drop tanks to be hurled away from the ship by the use of explosive
>>>bolts (evidently there is not enough time to separate by less destructive
>>>mechanical means)), but nevertheless at least several seconds; a lifetime
>>>in electromagnetic events. If all that fuel was turned into a huge amount
>>>of energy, where is it during those seconds?
>
>Actually, explosive bolts are far from destructive. They are
>*frequently* used currently when you have something that has to be
>attached securely, but you either can't afford the *hours* of time
>unbolting will take, or you can't afford the *stresses* that an uneven
>disconnect would cause.

When you head out to jump, make sure that none of the drop-tank
retrievers are in your path...  if drop-tanks are used enough, then
there's probably a thriving business retrieving them...

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:08:23 +0000
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@m9.sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE

Peter,

Welcome to my killfile.

Cya

> Hi,
> 
> AUCTION CLOSES IN 29 HOURS!  GET THOSE BIDS IN!  BID HIGH!  DON'T BE
> OUTBID IN THE LAST LITTLE WHILE!  MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR ITEMS!!!
> 
> This the last time this will be posted to the TML.  I have received
> three complaints total, which is why I have continued to post it, as
> that does not by any means portray a majority's opinion.  Thanks for the
> time on the list.
> 
> I've deciced to auction off my Traveller collection of materials ranging
> from Classic to 4th Edition.  Some of the items below are in good shape,
> and are good finds.
> 
> First, the rules:
> 1)  Please bid only with the intention of buying
> 2)  All bids in United States currency (even though I'm in Canada!)
> 3)  Buyer pays shipping from oakville, Ontario, Canada
> 4)  I reserve the right to remove items or reject bids without reason
> 5)  Only bids received at pmiller@linkeasy.net or ICQ#5294589 witll be
>     processed and accepted.
> 6)  The auction begins January 26th 1998, 1am, and ends 2/9/98 midnight
> 7)  I reserve the right to increase or decrease the auction length
> 8)  All bidders are automatically placd on the mailing list.  E-mail me
>     to be removed.
> 
> Second, the conditions guide (from Titan Games)
> M=Mint       - We took it out of the shrinkwrap (for some reason)
> and                  put it up for sale; looks like it's right from the
>                printer's
> NM=Near Mint - Corners or Binding have minimal or no wear
> VF=Very Fine - Corners, Binding have small wear, 
>                Cover may be slightly scuffed
> F=Fine       - Corners, Binding, or Cover have wear or small creases
> G=Good       - Corners, Binding, or Cover more wear, large creases or 
>                scuffing
> Fa=Fair      - Corners, Binding, or Cover very worn, many creases and
>                much scuffing
> P=Poor       - Corners, Binding, or Cover excessively worn, possible 
>                tears in cover
> 
> Third, the items:  (latest bidder's alias and bid underneath) - MIN BID
> 
> MegaTraveller Boxed Set (Imperial Encyclopedia, Referee's Manual,
> Player's Manual, Spinward Marches poster map) MT
>         - BOX is FAIR, CONTENTS are VERY FINE - wlewis $20
> 
> Traveller Boxed Set, digest sized (Books 1-3) CT
>         - BOX is GOOD, CONTENTS are VERY FINE - rstanek $75
> 
> Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller (CT)
>         - VERY FINE - j-man $20
> 
> Book 4: Mercenary (CT)
>         - FINE - T4Aslan $10
> 
> Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches (CT)
>         - FAIR - SpiralBound $10
> 
> Adventure 9:  Nomad's of the World-Ocean (CT) 
>         - VERY FINE - T4Aslan  $8
> 
> Double Adventuee 3: Death Station\Argon Gambit (CT) 
>         - VERY FINE - mkent $15
> 
> Double Adventure (FASA): The Stazhlekh Report\The Harrensa Project (CT)
>         - FINE - mkent $25
> 
> Marc Miller's Traveller Rulebook (T4)
>         - GOOD - electric-stitch $11
> 
> Pocket Empires (T4)
>         - FINE\VERY FINE - J-man $20
> 
> Emperor's Arsenal (T4)
>         - MINT - J-man $20
> 
> Challenge Isuses #57
>         - FINE - subbob $4
> 
> Challenge Issue #63
> 	- FINE - subbob $4
> 
> Challenge Issue #70 
>         - FAIR - subbob $4
> 
> Megatrveller 101 Vehicles (MT)
>         - FINE - igor $15
> 
> Megatraveller's Referee's Gaming Kit (MT) 
>         - VERY FINE - J-man $20
> 
> Traveler: The New Era  Rulebook (TNE) - December 1993
>         - MINT - darth $15
> 
> All bids to pmiller@linkeasy.net
> -- 
> -- 
> _________________________________Peter J. Miller
> pmiller@linkeasy.net                ICQ #5294589
>   ----> http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/ <-----   
> "The duty of a government is to protect the right
> to free expression; not to decide where this
> right begins and ends." - Peter Miller
> 
************************************************************************
tsykoduk@bigfoot.com                    http://www.bigfoot.com/~tsykoduk

Thought for the day:
    Intuition (n): an uncanny sixth sense which tells people 
    that they are right, whether they are or not.

************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:36:06 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)

How's this for starters (it's unfinished)
Accompanying music is Vangelis 
"Voices," although the music would				
be of a much slower and dignified 
tempo, as befitting a grand anthem.	

IMPERIAL ANTHEM  (The "Voice of Sylea") - Please note this is "Under
Construction"

(The Call to the Races)		

Hear now
Voice of the Races
Man of Sylea
Born to the stars

Rise now
Race of Sylea
Called to the skies of
Heaven above

One race
Issue of Terra 
Leap to the heavens 
Destinys home

Listen
Children of Cleon
Your father calls you
Til duty is done

Rise now
Standard of Cleon
Emblem of glory
Flag of the Sun

Seek now
Duty and Honor
These precious treasures
Bind us as one.		

(Work still in progress after this point)

War

Keepers 
of  Flame Eternal
Birthright of Terra
Imperium

Ave Cleon Imperator

Long live the honor
of the black sun

One race
bound together
By sacred honor

Our sacred honor
Shall not be undone

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:26:12 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE

> Peter,
> 
> Welcome to my killfile.
> 
> Cya
> 


How do I make a "killfile" if I use Netscape Messenger?  And also, how
do I make a "heading" filter for usenet groups so I only download such
headers as interest me?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:49:57 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Heplar

> 
> Some things *can't* be greatly improved over their original form. Both
> electric motors and transformers were over 90% efficient from their
> introduction. And they haven't improved much since. Thiey've gotten
> lighter, and new materials make the remaining inefficiencies less
> important.
> 
> You get improvements in things discovered before theory can explain
> them. And in things where the technology limits how well the theory can
> be applied (that's what happened with semiconductors). Others aren't
> thought of until theory points them out. And then, if the
> *implementation* technology allows, you wind up with a "perfected" tech
> almost immediately.


I'm afraid I disagree.

Major developments in electric motor tech include (not necessarily in
this order):

	Muti-phase constriuction
	Field and Armature Winding Techniques
	Materials improvements
	Higher ops frequencies (eg 400Hz vs 60Hz AC)
	Stator/Rotor configuration & design 
	Motor controller design		

And this was all extant by the late 60's.

	Now lets include the ability to use superconductors for nearly 
	"loss free systems" and you'll recoup all of those OHM heating losses.  

The piint is that "improvement" isn't just in thermodynamic or
conversion
efficiency, it is equally important (for ship designers) to reduce the 
volume and weight of a component for a given power handling capacity.

Similarly, Traveller simultaneously underestimates the improvement in
heat
engine (steam based) power plant tech while graetly overvaluing its
power to volume factor.  The actual figure for a TL6 Nuclear Steam plant
(ship based) is more like 0.001 MWe per m^3 instead of the 0.30 MWe per
m^3
from FFS1 and MT.  What Traveller fails to cosider is the BOP (Balance
of 
Plant), the thermodynamic power conversion system that turns heat into 
electricity.

At 6 MWe per m^3, Traveller fusion plants rock!

In any case, I believe that we are still making improvements to the IC
engine (Internal combustion) two or three TL's later and we will
continue 
to refine the technology.  How else can you so greatly increase gas
mileage
as the various automobile companies are suggesting they might be able to
do?

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:52:05 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

J-Man wrote:
> 
> > Wow!  And they call *me* a heretic. ;->
> >
> > Well...the effect you are describing certainly would throw Imperial naval
> > tactics on its ear. Just imagine, jump-mines...um, do they jump *into* the
> > middle of the enemy fleet or do they jump into jump space as the enemy
> > fleet passes by?
> >
> 
> I was thinking they would be stealth-shielded until the enemy fleet is
> all around them, then they would all go into jump.  If a jump field near
> a planet can do damage, I am assuming the same for the hapless fleet.


Gotta know where the enemey fleet is at first, more than a week in
advance (two for the round trip for the data).  The the mines  have to
be close enogh that they don't get detonated before they blow. 
Ingenious yet hideously expensive and thus, perhaps uneconomical for a
war effort.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 13:59:07 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: History

Vic&Amy Canada wrote:
> 
> Without breaking too many copyright laws, would anyone be willing to post
> a brief summary of the history of the Imperium (and corresponding game
> edition)?
> 
> I have the original series (little black books) and will probably not buy
> any other editions for quite a while.
> 
> I'm hoping this summary will help me keep up with some of the postings on
> TML.   Also, I love history, both real and in Traveller.
> 
> Vic

Hi Vic, 

The History of the Imperia was available at the AAB in Nov 1996 at:

<http://members.gnn.com/bborich/page1.htm>

I don't know if it still is.  It is about 30 pages long.

The History of the 3rd Imperium ain't Concise!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:01:59 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Drawing questions

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Moin David J. Golden,
> 
> >       The hull grid is spread out over the surface of the entire ship,
> > and the actual volume of the *grid* (not the rest of the drive)
> > can be assumed negligible and included within the hull itself. It
> > just occupies surface area.
> 
>         so its just a magical painting a ship must have to handwave jump.
> 
> --
>  mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de         http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
>                 " CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

Why must the jump grid occupy a significant volume at all.  Perhaps its
afilm deposited through molecular beam epitaxy or the equivalent TL15 
technology. Truth is, the whole system is probably constructed through
the
use of nanites, or at least could be.  All you need is a superconducting 
monoatomic layer film to carry the grid currents.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:03:18 +0000
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@m9.sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE

Really sorry about wasting everyone's bandwith with that.. It did not 
show up as a list message.. rather a personal one.. Did not check the 
addy when I replyed..

Cya

> Peter,
> 
> Welcome to my killfile.
> 
> Cya
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > AUCTION CLOSES IN 29 HOURS!  GET THOSE BIDS IN!  BID HIGH!  DON'T BE
> > OUTBID IN THE LAST LITTLE WHILE!  MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR ITEMS!!!
> > 
> 
************************************************************************
tsykoduk@bigfoot.com                    http://www.bigfoot.com/~tsykoduk

Thought for the day:
    Communist (n): one who has given up all hope
    of becoming a Capitalist.

************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:14:46 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Meson Guns & Ship Screens (Long and technical)

J-Man wrote:
> 
> > > 3. Why is it no one has invented a nice particle/energy screen to diminish
> > > laser fire?
> >
> >         They have its called sandcaster and is versalite also agains
> >         sensors.
> 
> I don't think Sandcasters are what he had in mind.  All they are is
> canisters of sand particles that obscure laser beams.  I think he meant
> a forcefield of charged particles as a barrier to beam weapons.
> 
> I'm not sure that's workable, and probably not 'Canon'..:)


Let me weigh in here.  There ARE nice particle energy screens except
that nobody realizes it yet on the TML.  

The ship's hull is itself a highly efficient particle screen, a much
more
complex system than given due in the Trav rules & discussions.

The others are called Meson Screens.  Traveller Canon states that these
work
by inducing strong force decay in the incoming meson packets, but guess
what?

Meson decay is NOT controlled by the Strong Force.  It is controlled
by the Electroweak force

		(Technobabble Engage...)

Meson Technology (Mesonics) - Related to Neutrinics, specializing in
meson 
production and decay manipulation.

Pi neutral mesons mediate the strong nuclear force within the atom, 
moderating the exchange of the strong nuclear force between hadrons. 
This 
macronuclear force is a residual effect of the quark-quark interaction 
mediated by gluons and is an analog to the Van der Waals forces as
associated 
with the electromagnetic force.

Meson production methods are highly inefficient up until TL 13, when
particle 
accelerators double as meson weapons.  The probably reaction used
involves 
using high potential electrodynamics or electrostatic fields to "strip"
muons 
from energetic electon/positron or proton/neutron beams, creating, in
essence, 
a meson beam "rider" on the master particle beam.  10-16 sec meson half
lives 
imply that this process would necessarily be short ranged and probably
of low 
efficiency, given that TL11 is the onset of meson weapon technology. 
True 
meson weapons do not develop until significant advances in unified
fields 
theory are made at TL12, and at TL13, meson weapons and technologies
begin 
to appear as practical engineering concepts.

Note, when a pi neutral meson decays, it decays into two g rays.  Thus a 
relativistic meson beam, quantum mechanically manipulated to delay onset
of 
decay and then impinging upon a meson screen will undergo decay, leaving
two 
high energy photons which carry the original muons energy and
momentum.  
Thus you end up getting what is effectively a high energy laser beam at
the 
terminal end of a shot.  Meson weapons at TL13 and higher are therefore
possibly 
very large, highly modified laser systems which utilize increases in the 
understanding of meson decay mechanisms along with hadrogravitics
technologies 
to convert high energy coherent photon beams into a beam of mesons.  The
mesons 
themselves must be manipulated to retard decay onset, and this probably
involves 

(More Technobabble...)

Meson Accelerators 	[TL 11+ Pi Neutral Meson Accelerators]
			[TL 13+ Pi Neutral Meson Drivers]

In meson accelerators, the primary beam is created by the juncture of
coherently 
phased particles, either proton-neutron beams through the <p,n|p,n,p0> 
reaction 
or electron-positron beams through the reaction <e-,e+|g,g,p0>.  

The reaction is one of inherently low efficiency and initially offers no
means of
controlling meson decay initiation, which is governed by the electroweak
force 
and is similar to b decay.  Exponential decay of the meson population
demonstrates 
its highest rate at particle birth, so initially, the actual point of
beam juncture 
and meson creation must be in direct proximity to the target in question
so that 
the beam pattern overlays the required impact point.   

To achieve this, early meson accelerators employ time staggered coaxial 
particle (p,n) beams, each with differing group velocities, to control
beam 
interaction and initiate meson generation immediately prior to target
impingement.  
Coulomb force dispersion within vacuum proton beams problems pose
significant 
engineering problems with this configuration, resulting in limited
effective ranges.  
As accelerator technologies improve, coherent phasing and advanced 
internal beam 
geometries associated with the <e-,e+> configuration enable extended
ranges along 
with enhanced control of meson generation processes.

Meson accelerators essentially comprise dual close coaxial particle
accelerator 
mounts with multiple beam steering options.  Increasing <p,n|p,n,p0> and 
<e-,e+|g,g,p0> reaction efficiencies result in significant increases in
meson 
beam densities., although after TL 13 these devices are increasingly
supplanted 
 by meson "drivers" (also known as pion, "p0", or "p drivers").  These
devices 
utilize hadrogravitics technology to transform high energy photons
directly into
pi neutral mesons, simultaneously placing the generated particles in a
metastable 
exitation state whose decay is controlled by the decay of nuclear self
inductive 
fields.  These devices form the first true meson drivers, whose beam is
composed 
purely of mesons and transits the entire distance from firing ship to
target. 

Additionally, complex interactive beam geometries enable precise control
of 
the meson production and decay initiation points by making use of
nuclear field 
self-inductive properties and using a travelling electromagnetic
waveform coincident 
with the meson beam to maintain stability until terminal beam
propagation phase is 
achieved.

Reference:  Eisberg & Resnick, Quantum Physics, 1985



Sorry, I realize this this topic may be too cumbersome for the list.

- -Dan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #119
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 120



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Questions
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Drawing questions
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Meson Guns & Ship Screens (Long and technical)
Re: GURPS Traveller
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Warships
Re: Warships
Stepping up to the mike...
RE: winmail.dat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:26:41 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

XatoKuom@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 98-02-07 13:25:43 EST, you write:
> 
> << The missiles still would lack the power to inflict significant damage
>  unless used in large numbers (1000's? 100's?).  The reason the IJN
>  was able to make the Pearl Harbor attack was due to their development
>  of the "Long Lance" oxygen torpedo, the preeminent weapon of its type
>  and time, specifically designed to destroy capital ships sitting at
>  rest in Pearl. ISYN. >>
> 
> The "long lance" torpedoes Type 93 and 95 were exceptional in all regards.
> Their speed of 45knots with a ranges of 27,000 plus yards made them formidable
> weapons, but the torpedoes used in the attack on Pearl Harbor were not "long
> lances"; they were earlier models powered by simple gasoline/air engines,
> IIRC.
> 
> The long lance Type 93 was used by the Destroyers and Cruisers of the IJN
> while the type 95s were used by their submarines.  I believe the Type 97 was a
> possible air-launched model, but never caught on.
> 
> Oxygen propelled torpedoes are expensive and heavy.  Ship-ship combat requires
> a fairly long-range engagement and, thus, a superior weapon.  Aircraft on the
> other hand drop their torpedoes within hundreds of yards obviating the need
> for a sophisticated weapon.
> 
> Scott


Thanks.  I take this as definitive enouygh to stand corrected.  I must
then assume
that either my memories are so ancient as to have decayed or the
original text was
incorrect.  Unless I find the reference again, I'll assume that I have
misremebered
the material.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:31:03 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Questions

Bolie Williams IV wrote:
> 
> At 2:40 PM -0500 2/7/98, Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> > Hi, here are the q's!
> >
> >1. If you compare to fighters and capships in movies, how would the speed
> >and agility be like? Are they sluggish and easy to shoot down?
> 
> One thing no one accounts for in any ship design system I've ever seen
> is that bigger ships will have a theoretical maximum acceleration that
> is lower than smaller ships.  This is because the strength of a support
> structure is dependent on the cross sectional area while the mass (and
> therefore the force it generates when under acceleration) is dependent
> on the volume.  As an example, if you take a column that is 10 meters


I believe this is related to the principle/mechanical behavior called
"buckling."

The assertion is true, as it is with ships today, although the primary
factor there is transverse strength (cross sectional) vice longitudinal
(lengthwise).

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:40:42 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 05:25 PM 2/7/98 +0100, you wrote:

>Love it or hate it, the ad in the new Pyramid magazine has to be seen.  
>(That would be issue #28 for anyone that's counting.)

Hey, an excuse to get out of the house.. (looks out window at the El Nino
inspired deluge).. tomorrow sometime.

>
>"Free Trader Beowulf...
>Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
>Can you hear me?
>Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
>Hang in there, Beowulf...
>...help is on the way!
>
>It gave me chills.

It inspired me.

FREE TRADER BEOWULF
to the tune of "Tommy, Can You Hear Me?"
by Pete Townshend

Free Trader Beowulf!
Can you hear me?
Free Trader Beowulf
Help is coming quickly..

Oohh.. Beowulf (x3)

Free Trader Beowulf!
Are you still resisting?
We got some bad news
We're the Zhodani

Oohh, Beowulf
(repeat and fade out)

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:30:42 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 09:05 AM 2/8/98 -0600, you wrote:

>I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
>Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
>Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?

It wouldn't be current.  Those codes change constantly.  You'd get
interrogated and show an out of date code, or a no response.

BOOM.


+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
|-------------------------------------|
| "It is not the big armies that win  |
|  battles, it is the good ones"      |
|             -Maurice de Saxe        |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:13:41 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Drawing questions

At 08:16 AM 2/8/98, you wrote:
>Moin David J. Golden,
>
>> 	The hull grid is spread out over the surface of the entire ship,
>> and the actual volume of the *grid* (not the rest of the drive)
>> can be assumed negligible and included within the hull itself. It
>> just occupies surface area.
>
>	so its just a magical painting a ship must have to handwave jump. 

No, it is a network of fine thread-like wires built into the mass of the
hull.  It takes up surface area, but it so light weight that the total mass
is tiny, and included as part of the general hull weight.

I've seen a variant of BL that includes an increasing chance of j-drive
malfunction linked to the number of areas on a ship that have suffered
surface hits.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:28:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 05:49 AM 2/8/98 GMT, you wrote:

>At least most of the battleships sunk there were raised. Had they been
>sunk at sea that would not have been possible.

As an interesting aside, did'ya know that the Arizona is still a
commissioned warship?  A friend at PH took me on a tour of the Memorial
while I was stationed at Schofield Barracks.  Very sobering.  I recommend
it to anyone visiting Hawai'i.

- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the  |
|  stupidity of man."  -Gen. George S. Patton |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:24:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 06:41 PM 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> 
> You, being a sneaky devil, dial your IFF
>> box to the other side's code.  Meanwhile, your wingman picks you up,
>> interrogates the bogey, and doesn't get a return.  He launches an anti-ship
>> missile and brags about bagging the retreating enemy, and everybody wonders
>> whatever happened to you...
>
>
>Or you don't see the allied identification markings on a British APC in
>the heat of combat, and bag it as an "enemy."  
>Good IFF among allies would/should have prevented that.  
>(Don't think I could live with myself after an incident like that
>one...)

One of the biggest problems we have is that Army gunners are taught that
*anything* with eight wheels and a boat like hull is a Soviet.  Then the
USMC adopted the LAV-25, which has eight wheels and a boat like hull...
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:21:40 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 06:09 PM 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Couldn't I just waggle my wings like StarBuck?  :-)

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Reminds me of a great day I had a s a sniper.. we were training, had a
brand new LT, who informed me that to distinguish his group from an OPFOR,
he's wave his arm in certain way.  This guy redefined putz, and nobody
liked him.. areal anal-retentive perfectionist.

Anyway, I was holed up with my spotter, and we saw the patrol moving, and
sure enough, the LT waved his arm.  So I fired at him, setting off his
MILES gear.  Later, when the LT had been returned form the dead, he hauled
to our company commander.

"Why did you fire on me Private?!  Did I not give you the recognition sign?"

"Yes Sir."

"Did you not see me give the sign?"

"Yes Sir, I did see the sign."

"Then why did you fire on me!"

"Sir, you used the wrong arm."

At this, the Captain busted up laughing.

Thank Ghu I got transfer orders a week later...
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:33:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 07:02 PM 2/7/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Ok, what if the opposing navy uses mine-layers to lay hundreds of
>remote-activated jump-1 drives?  They'd have just enough fuel to create
>a jump field for 30 sec or so.  would a fleet being caught in the middle
>of a minefield like this get destroyed?  What would be the effects?

Since the jump field envelops only the object within its jump grid,
probably a real nice light show for your enemies as the cruise by.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:58:45 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns & Ship Screens (Long and technical)

> Sorry, I realize this this topic may be too cumbersome for the list.
> 
> -Dan
> 

not really, it's right down my alley.  I'm a student of quantum physics.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 20:09:54 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 04:29 AM 2/8/98 GMT, you wrote:
>On Sat, 7 Feb 98 17:25:18 +0100, Niko Wieleba wrote:

>> It gave me chills.
>
>Actually, it makes me quite sick to my stomach.  The way it reads to me is
>that *IG* is "Free Trader Beowulf" and Steve Jackson Games is going to
>"rescue" Traveller-- all hail SJG!  Bah!

James, I can see where you are getting that impression, but this *is* a
return to the Classic Setting, so the connection is obvious.  SJG is one of
the better companies in this industry.  Their commitment to gamers is
beyond reproach.  Steve, for all his ego, is one of the best designers
around, right behind Croc.

>And as Phillip McGregor pointed out in another post, GURPS Traveller is
>(almost without a doubt) the future of Traveller.  Again-- Bah!

As an Ars Magica player, I am very familiar with the "who is publishing the
game this week?" syndrome.  I will agree that unless something happens at
IG fast to unblock delinquent payments and place some very high quality
materials on the market, GURPS *will* become the future of Traveller.
Since I know GURPS, I can say while that is not my first choice, I would
survive such a storm.

>Traveller's future has always been in the hands of the *people* that play
>the game.  The original Beowulf dialog on the front box cover of CT was
>aimed at would-be players, IMHO, giving them the opportunity to play
>characters coming to the rescue of Free Trader Beowulf.  I'm sure it
>*could* be interpreted as an answering hail to that cry for help circa 1105
>(thus keeping the timeline flowing), but considering the timing of the
>advertisement and IG's current "problems", I somehow doubt it.

Since we've heard *nothing* from IG one way or another, except that they
haven't seemed to pay anyone, I'd advise holding off on the obituary.
Restraint is called for at a moment like this.  It's entirely possible that
GURPS: Traveller won't be popular, and the series will be dropped.. on the
other hand, it could be wildly success, and Evil Stevie will be the
publishing rights and Marc will get a corner office, and a budget, and
he'll hire all of us as minions!

>> Also, in SJ Games News on page 5 is a bit of information about the 1998 
>> release of GURPS Traveller and their tentative plans for its future.
>
>Please tell us more.  I honestly can't see how a release schedule for GURPS
>could even hope to keep up with what Traveler players have been used to in
>the past.  Just like White Wolf and their five "storyteller" games-- after
>a major release the supplements seem to move along quite quickly.  After a
>while, however, you're down to one or two books a year (or the line gets
>completely ignored altogether).  Or worse: Games Workshop-- where games
>come and go, never to be seen again.  At least IG is dedicated towards
>their one product and the T4 line will only disappear when IG finally does.
>With Steve Jackson, they could drop Traveller support the moment something
>else comes along.

It's called burst support.  You release a large number of follow-up
products quickly while interest is still high, and when the wave crests,
you can look at the level of dedicated support and plan releases more
carefully.  Earthdawn had a large number of excellent products released
right after publication, and now they've throttled back to almost nothing.

GURPS supplements come in three flavors: genre books like Space, Magic, and
Horror; Worldbooks like Planet Krishna or Callahan's Crosstime Saloon; and
generic support, like High Tech.  I imagine the first G:T book will be a
cross between the first two types, much of the setting and rules for
playing a Traveller style game under GURPS.

>> Count me still excited about any new Traveller product that comes out -- 
>> regardless of who is producing it.
>
>I guess so.  As long as it is aimed at Traveller *in general*, and not at
>SJG's "non-rebellion, Strephon-is-still-alive, non-canon" universe.

The setting is the Strephon lives! universe, but since the settings of MT
and TNE were fiascoes (IMHO! IMHO!) I'm looking forward to it.

>Remember the huge stink that erupted when GDW released TNE-- with HEPlaR
>drives replacing reactionless Thrusters?  How about when IG released system
>after system for starship construction and/or combat and players bitched
>about no backwards-compatibility with previous material?  Whatever SJG
>comes up with that goes against everything in Traveller after 1116 will
>make those debates look insignificant.

I'm sure there will be arguments, perhaps even threats of a list split, and
much righteous fury spewed about.  But it's still your game.  I can still
sit down with the basic LBBs and run a game of Traveller.  I can also do
the same with all the Classic Books, MT, T4, or CORPS.  (I sold all my TNE
rules, sorry.)

>For those devoted fans that still play in the CT era, GURPS Traveller /may/
>be a good thing.  However, for those that prefer to play in either the MT-,
>TNE- and/or T4- eras, GURPS: Traveller would have to be pretty damn good to
>make them switch over.  Why switch to a clunky, rule saturated system like
>GURPS when they are already happily using a house-modified version of MT,
>TNE, or T4.x?

Why indeed?  James, you and I both seem to prefer the Classic Era, a
setting that hasn't been supported for over a decade!  I'm looking forward
to G:T as a sourcebook at the very least, and a window to get new players
into my game without them having to overcome the "new rules syndrome."
affecting play at every step.

>How many of us can *HONESTLY* say that we will adopt the GURPS rules system
>just to play in a non-canon SJG universe where much of what GDW and IG have
>published is considered "non-canon"?  Especially when it means invalidating
>the usefulness of many current and out-of-print Traveller supplements.

If I want to play a one-shot with people who know GURPS, sure, I'll do it. 

G:T is more aimed at the GURPS crowd than at hard-core Traveller fiends
like us.  Just like the SJG/WW crossovers, it was intended to add to the
scope of GURPS, and increase exposure for the parent line. 

>IMHO, the only ones that will gain from the release of GURPS Traveller is
>SJG.

We'll see, in the fullness of time.  One thing I'm sure about is that this
will be either the rebirth or destruction of Imperium Games.

>> As always, a Traveller fan,
>
>Ditto.

Ibid.

>Will the free trader Beowulf still be around when "help" finally shows up?
>Let's hope so...

Considering it was gutted in last week's ACQ playtest...

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 12:18:06 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

At 01:09 PM 2/7/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Doug Berry wrote:
>
>>despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I would never
>>hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted Monty Python just
>>before the shot.
>
>The Army worries me a lot.

Worry more, I picked up that habit from the Marine Sniper School.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:50:58 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Warships

Greetings, Gentlefolk, my gaming group was having a discussion
(read argument) concerning the various types of warship that we
could reasonable expect to encounter in the traveller universe.
We regularly discuss the various topics on this list. Here is the list
that our discussion generated. Please give me any feedback that
you might wish.

Super Monitor
Monitor
Dreadnought
Battleship
Battle Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Cruiser
Light Cruiser
Frontier Cruiser
Destroyer
Frigate
Escort
Corvette
Scout/Courier

Heavy Carrier
Assault Carrier
Carrier
Light Carrier
Escort Carrier

Battle Rider(s)
Battle Rider Carrier

Troop Carrier
Marine Assault Ship (modified Battler Rider Carrier with Brigade level drop
ships)


Tender
Mobile Hospital
Mobile Yard
Deep Space Tug

Your thoughts, Please
Thanks
Pat Connaughton

pconnaught@fia.net
pconn@simm.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:47:09 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Warships

At 02:50 PM 08/02/98 -0600, Pat Connaughton wrote:
>Greetings, Gentlefolk, my gaming group was having a discussion
>(read argument) concerning the various types of warship that we
>could reasonable expect to encounter in the traveller universe.
>We regularly discuss the various topics on this list. Here is the list
>that our discussion generated. Please give me any feedback that
>you might wish.
>
>Super Monitor
>Monitor
>Dreadnought
>Battleship
In Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (FSSI) there are: Battleships
(BB), Dreadnaughts (BI), Battleship Lights (BL), Battleship Missile (BM),
Battleship Heavy (BH). There was also a Battleship Strike (BS) which had
J-6 for rift operations.

>Battle Cruiser
>Heavy Cruiser
These two classes, plus Armoured Cruisers, Fleet Cruisers and Protected
Cruisers are basically the same thing (except in WWII where treaty limits
kept cruisers small) - an attempt to make a cruiser with capital ship guns
(or armour), or a capital ship with cruiser speed. This being the case IMO
the 3I would tend to use only one designation, perhaps two with one being
for older (lower TL) ships, like the an Armoured/Protected Cruiser was the
Pre-Dreadnaught Battle Cruiser.

>Cruiser
I'm not sure you'd ever get just a 'cruiser'.

>Light Cruiser
>Frontier Cruiser
FSSI has Cruiser Armoured (CA), Cruiser Heavy (CH), and an assortment of
odd missile and strike cruisers.

>Destroyer
>Frigate
>Escort
FSSI - Escort Destroyer

>Corvette
>Scout/Courier
>
>Heavy Carrier
>Assault Carrier
>Carrier
>Light Carrier
>Escort Carrier
FSSI - Carrier Fleet (VF), Carrier Strike (VS), Carrier Light (VL). BTW the
listed fighter size for these carriers goes from 50t at TL-12 to 20t at TL-15.

>
>Battle Rider(s)
>Battle Rider Carrier
>
>Troop Carrier
>Marine Assault Ship (modified Battler Rider Carrier with Brigade level drop
>ships)
>
>
>Tender
>Mobile Hospital
>Mobile Yard
>Deep Space Tug
From FSSI - Tanker Fleet (TF), resupply (TM), Dromedary (a combined tanker
and resupply vessel) (TT)



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:54:57 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Stepping up to the mike...

Fellow Sophonts,

Much as I hate stepping up to the mike and saying, "Is this thing on?", I need
to try a test. a fellow list member (thanks Dave) vetted my email settings and
asked a question no one else had: was I sending as part of replies? It got me
to thinking I hadn't posted any original messages to this forum, just replies
to what others had said.

Could someone who sees this message please respond to me at smithw@hartwick.edu
and tell me if a winmail.dat attachment or any other annoying garbage showed up
in the post? Thanks for the assistance...

Walt Smith
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"OK, I give up. How many Virushi _does_ it take to screw in a lightbulb?"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:57:14 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: RE: winmail.dat

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD34B2.9BBB2C40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

thanks for an idea, David - I'm trying a test message that _isn't_ a =
reply, I don't think I've sent one of those yet...the other settings =
matched your list already, but I can live with being able to post but =
not directly reply.

Walt

- ----------
From: 	Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC[SMTP:DR200282@shellus.com]
Sent: 	Friday, February 06, 1998 6:44 PM
To: 	'traveller@mpgn.com'
Subject: 	RE: winmail.dat

Walt:
> I think it's more than that - I've had the same problem using =
Microsoft
> Outlook, which (with the Internet Mail Patch) is MIME compliant. I =
also
(as
> best I can tell) have the system set not to use the MIME rich text =
format
- -
> should I turn that feature on?

So you're set to UU?  Why?  Do you have to communicate with Groupwise =
users?
MIME should be your choice, I would think, unless you have other
circumstances.

You might consider also a .pab "internet address" entry for TML and unselect
"Always send rich text format" when you post directly.  If you're sending it
as part of replies, something else is wrong.  (I'm using Outlook, and I
don't think anyone is getting them from me.)  Which version of Outlook are
you using?  Get 8.03 if you don't have it.  Mail me directly
(dreed@shellus.com) if you're lost already.  ;-)

Anyway, when you reply to a message Outlook should return it in the same
format that it was sent, unless you manually change the format/font/etc.

> I apologize to everyone here for the inconvenience, I need to use a
Microsoft
> email program to be compatible with the office intranet where I work - =
I
know
> the solution is a simple one, but it has so far eluded me. Anyone have
some
> other ideas?

Exchange server for the office?  Give me a holler directly.  I =
personally
hadn't noticed them, since Outlook absorbs them without a whimper.

> And to Herr Koehne - flames and personal attacks for someone else's
software
> error are neither constructive nor interesting. Grow up.

Ditto.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------



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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD34B2.9BBB2C40--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #120
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 121



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Warships
Re: Warships
A couple of questions about TNE
More questions on TNE
Re: Warships
Re: Warships
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Pearl Habour - Torpedoes
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Warships
Re: Stepping up to the mike...
[T98#115] GURPS Traveller
Military Chaplans?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #115
3rd TNE Novel
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Stepping up to the mike...
Re: Pearl Habour - Torpedoes
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:04:24 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> One of the biggest problems we have is that Army gunners are taught that
> *anything* with eight wheels and a boat like hull is a Soviet.  Then the
> USMC adopted the LAV-25, which has eight wheels and a boat like hull...
> --


Down at Red Flag one of our Desired Learing Objectives is always

"No Frats!"

(Fratricides, not collegiate gatherings.)

Thats one thing about war-someone will always bag his buddy at some
point because it is kill or be killed and just intense.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:05:52 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Warships

You forgot escape pods.  
If your characters encounter the top of the list they will need one.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 98 16:30:08 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Warships

On 02/08/98 at 02:50 PM,  "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net> said:

Nice list!

>Super Monitor  
>Monitor

I list Monitors among Boats (not jump capable).  In size/firepower a
Monitor is the equal of a Dreadnaught and a Battleboat is the equal of the
Battleship.  My definition of a cruiser is that it can operate
independently for long periods ranging over a number of systems, thus there
are no Cruiserboats.

>Dreadnought
>Battleship
>Battle Cruiser
>Heavy Cruiser
>Cruiser
>Light Cruiser
>Frontier Cruiser

This probably matches canon sources pretty well, but I'd move Frontier
Cruiser above Light Cruiser.  In fact, I's probably rate a Frontier Cruiser
as equal to a Cruiser, but with additional range.  Of course, I argue for
smaller ships in general. ;->

>Destroyer
>Frigate
>Escort

I rate Frigates above Destroyers and Escorts are subclasses of the
Destroyer and Frigate types, ie Escort Destroyer, Escort Frigate.  An
Escort is just a small warship with specialty features to assist it in it's
mission of escorting and protecting transport ships.

Medium sized System Defense Boats are in the Destroyer/Frigate range.
Larger ones are the Battleboats and Monitors.

>Corvette
>Scout/Courier

These are about the same, in my view.  Small, fast, jump-capable, armed and
armored ships. Corvettes, perhaps, a little larger.

At about this size are the...

 Missle Torpedo Boats 
 Gun Boats
 
...that I was discussing with Merrick the other day.  What others call
fighters, I call MTB's and GB's, giving them a size of fifty to a couple
hundred dt.  Stick a jdrive on one and it's a Corvette or Scout.

>Heavy Carrier
>Assault Carrier
>Carrier
>Light Carrier
>Escort Carrier

Looks Ok to me, except I'd say an Escort Carrier is more of a function than
a class, it would generally be a Light Carrier on Escort duty.  Of course,
I don't favor the term fighters, and carrier goes with fighter. ;-> These
ships might be *called* carriers, but I'd be more apt to call them Boat
Tenders.  Which blurs the line between them and Battle Riders...

IAC, good list.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:41:36 -0600 (CST)
From: searles@ix.netcom.com
Subject: A couple of questions about TNE

My friends and I are new to TNE and have a couple of questions.

1.  This is concerning Blunt Trauma damage.  I find the book unclear with 
the point of Blunt Trauma damage.  I understand it if you are wearing 
armour.  What about if you are not wearing armour?  The book makes it sound 
as if you do not take BT damage if you are not wearing armour.  Is this 
correct?

2.  This is concerning skills.  I understand what it takes for somebody to 
be taught a skill.  But how long does it take to earn an experience point 
from being taught and practicing a skill?


Thanks for any help I can get,

Cygnus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:51:11 -0600 (CST)
From: searles@ix.netcom.com
Subject: More questions on TNE

Sorry but I have two more quick questions,

1.  The book says that a PC can shoot a 3 different tagrets in a combat turn.  
Is there any to hit mod when changing targets?

2.  Is there any way for a PC to target a body location with an aimed shot?  
According to the book, a PC aims at the target, determines if they hit, 
determines hit locations, if that location is covered (ie behind a rock) the 
shot hits the rock not the target.  Is this all correct or did I miss 
something?

Thanks for the patience,

Cygnus

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:56:37 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Warships

Pat Connaughton wrote:
> 
> Greetings, Gentlefolk, my gaming group was having a discussion
> (read argument) concerning the various types of warship that we
> could reasonable expect to encounter in the traveller universe.
> We regularly discuss the various topics on this list. Here is the list
> that our discussion generated. Please give me any feedback that
> you might wish.

> Your list looks good.  I include the "Fleet Intruder" at the top of the
"ship" category, as a Super-Dreadnought type of ship.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 18:14:38 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Warships

The real world scale of warships (USN) works like this:

Fast Attack Carriers (CV/N or CV/A) - Only CV & CVN in US inventory
Battleships (BB) - None exist in active service
Battlecruisers (BC) - None exist
Cruisers (CG or CGN)
Destroyers (DD or DDG)
Frigates (FF & FFG)
Corvettes 
Patrol Boats


Cruisers are always larger and more heavily armed than destroyers and 
destroyers always larger and more heavily armed than frigates.  Except
when politics and treaty limitations interfere.

This is one reason why the Arleigh Burkes DDG's are designated as
Destroyers
vice Cruisers (which they nearly equal in displacement if not quite in
armament).  Political limitations in numbers or tonnages 

The ex-Soviet Kirov (I can never remember its new name) class were
designated
as Cruisers vice Battlecruisers so they could pass through the Turkish
controlled Bosporous region (some treaty or agreement they had with the
Turks?).

The US nuclear cruisers (CGN's) were originally designated as DLGN's 
(Destroyer LEader, Guided, Nuclear) and that was changed for political
reasons.

There was even a large battle between the aviation community and the
nuclear
power community in the USN (read: Rickover) that debated placing the "N"
in
the ship designator string.  i.e. the aviation community wanted to call
the
nuclear carriers CVA's and the like, Rickover settled for CVA/N knowing
that
folks woiuld get tired of the /N and just start writing it as CVAN or
CVN, as
it later became.  Lassitude and infighting.  Gotta love 'em.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:40:36 -0800
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

>> Identification Friend/Foe--special encrypted info usually added
>>to transponders so's you can tell the difference ...
>
>So what's to stop me from duplicating your signal?  You send it out, I pick
>it up, analyze the encryption and send it out as my own.  Am I missing
>something.

Yes. Secure IFF is based on a challenge/response pair. You send out an
active sensor ping with an encoded challenge, say a random number. The
unidentified ship encodes it with its private cryptographic key and sends
the result. You check the response against the public key of whoever the
ship says it is, and if it matches the ship is who it claims to be. If it
is not, or if the ship doesn't reply, it is probably not who it claims to
be. By making longer cryptographic keys this can be made as secure as you
wish. There are modern public cryptographic keys which theoretically could
not be broken during the expected lifetime of the universe by as many crays
as there are electrons in the universe. I think it likely that Third
Imperium technology would have even more secure cryptographic techniques.

Since the IFF signal is based on an encrypted challenge, simply recording
the IFF signal and playing it back later would not work because every
challenge/reply pair is unique. Since the challenge signal has a random
component in it, and there are an infinite number of random numbers, you
cannot use a network of supercomputers to pregenerate every possible
challenge key.

The challenge and response can have sensor characteristics of the
transmitting ship encoded in it, so stealing a transponder and putting it
into another ship will not work. The cryptographic sequence can be altered
after each mission, so a hijacked or renegade ship would be spotted because
the key would have expired.

If by "analyze the encryption" you mean discover the algorithm and public
key encoded in the transmission, this will do you no good. The ship's
identity is created when the private key is created, not during the
challenge or response. I could broadcast the encryption algorithm and hand
out free transponders and you would still not be able to fake an IFF signal.

If by "analyze the encryption" you mean be able to derive the private
cryptographic key by monitoring the transmitted public keys, this is very
very very very very very very very unlikely. While it has not been
mathematically proven impossible, Whitfield Diffie, the NSA, and most every
mathemetician who has ever lived has found no way of doing it. Let me give
you an analogy; I just did a few simple mathematical operations to get the
number 5.46889e+11. Please tell me exactly what operations I did with which
numbers and in which order. Answering this correctly is so insignificant
compared to deriving a private key that it's not really a fair analogy, but
it should give you a idea of the likelihood of what you are suggesting.

In my campaign, Imperial public/private key pairs are created from quantum
transitions that are truly mathematically random and, because of
Heisenburg's principle, unrecordable. This means that every transponder in
the Imperium is unique and cannot be duplicated, even by the manufacturer.

The only way of circumventing this IFF technique is by compromising the
agency that hands out transponders. That is, if I tell you that transponder
A is registered to an imperial spy and you detect transponder A, you can be
sure that it is the same transponder I made and handed out, but you still
have to take my word that I really did give it to a spy. Of course, you
could make your own transponders, but then people will have to take you at
your word as to who you gave them to.

Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:25:43 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Pearl Habour - Torpedoes

US intelligence KNEW that an attack on Pearl Harbour was out of the
question, because it would need shallow-running torpedoes, which they KNEW
were not in the Japanese arsenal.

They were. The attack was possible. It happened.... That's intelligence for
you.

But the torps weren't long lances, they were conventional
shallow-runninngair-dropped types.

IIRC the Japanese rather cleverly improvised armour-piercing bombs from
14-inch naval shells, too.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:56:48 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

>I was wondering how life would be in the 24th century.  Let's say, for
>the sake of arguement, that by then, personal nano-factories are
>commonplace.  How would this affect world economics?  How would
>terrorism be held in check?  Would nanobots be programmed against
>fabricating dangerous weapons for sick individuals?

The world economic situation would be completely tossed on its ear.  Nothing
would be the same as it is today.  Money would cease to exist, and the concept
of "work" would quickly become archaic.  Modern methods of warfare would also
quickly become outmoded in light of such an amazing and awe-inspiring
technology.

Terrorism would be held in check in one obvious way.  With the onset of
"replicators" food and other basic necessities would no longer be nearly as
important, as they could be made from simple materials.  As a result, the
unhappiness that drives many terrorists and other miscreants would be more or
less eliminated.  You'd still have terrorism, but, hey, you still have
terrorism today.

National boundaries and the control of people by governments would be changed
forever, probably allowing much more freedom.

In addition to all of this being hypothetical, there's hypothesis layered on
top of hypothesis.  There are several spots along the trail that things could
change, or not go a certain way.

Its tough to predict the kind of things that would happen with a technological
discipline that is making headway, but is still dimly understood by a large
number of people.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:19:40 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>Will the free trader Beowulf still be around when "help" finally shows up?
>Let's hope so...

I dunno...  Its been out there for a while.

I think the Free Trader Beowulf is really a (not possible if you're really
sticking to Canon) pirate.  In fact, I think that it is a large, nasty type of
ship with lots of pointy guns and knobbly protrusions, having only stolen
Beowulf's transponder (still up in the air whether stuff like this is
possible).  However, I am sure that the real Beowulf has solar powered jump
capacitors (I saw them myself, although they are non-canon), and was carrying
a hold full of Vargr chew toys.  It also had (non-Canon) HEPlaR drives...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:22:05 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Warships

At 06:14 PM 2/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>The real world scale of warships (USN) works like this:

>Battleships (BB) - None exist in active service

And that is a bloody crime.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:20:10 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Stepping up to the mike...

At 04:54 PM 2/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Fellow Sophonts,
>
>Much as I hate stepping up to the mike and saying, "Is this thing on?", I
need to try a test. a fellow list member (thanks Dave) vetted my email
settings and asked a question no one else had: was I sending as part of
replies? It got me to thinking I hadn't posted any original messages to
this forum, just replies to what others had said.
>
>Could someone who sees this message please respond to me at
smithw@hartwick.edu and tell me if a winmail.dat attachment or any other
annoying garbage showed up in the post? Thanks for the assistance...

No .dats, or any other sort of net.garbage
>
>Walt Smith
>---------------------------------------------------------
>"OK, I give up. How many Virushi _does_ it take to screw in a lightbulb?"

"Only two, but don't ask me how they got in there"
                                  -Kirsten Berry

I am now asking for lightbulb jokes for the races from Alien Archive, or
any other recently published setting/adventure.  I can't *wait* to see the
Sayat jokes.

To see what has gone before, go to

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/litebulb.html
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 01:47:44 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#115] GURPS Traveller

On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:50:37 -0500, Niko Wieleba
<scarab1@pacbell.net> wrote:

>Love it or hate it, the ad in the new Pyramid magazine has to be seen.  
>(That would be issue #28 for anyone that's counting.)

>"Free Trader Beowulf...
>Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
>Can you hear me?
>Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
>Hang in there, Beowulf...
>...help is on the way!

>It gave me chills.

Perfect.  Absolutely perfect.  I hope to hell this was Loren's
brainchild - I'd hate to think how much SJG would otherwise have
to have overpaid to have some marketing hack agency come up with
something so utterly perfect, yet so utterly simple.

Kind of like the FedEx ad during the Super Bowl.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  9 Feb 98 01:37:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Military Chaplans?

On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:10:35 iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada) Wrote...

> Also, military characters may be created as chaplains.
    ::CLICK::  Hey, where ARE the military Chaplins in Traveller?  I mean come
on I seriously doubt every last living sentient in the Traveller Universe is an
Athiest. ;) And Militaries are notorious for supporting/providing Religious
support and justification for the actions they take.

    Now I'm not suggesting that we create pan-Imperium religions but I don't
think the various Militaries of the Imperium would ignore them either.  They're
just too useful as regards the "intangables" that motivate and drive soldiers.
So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle them?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 01:48:06 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #115

On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:50:37 -0500, Niko Wieleba
<scarab1@pacbell.net> wrote:

>I have no intentions of starting up the Great What Is Traveller Artwork 
>Debate again, but I have been asked to solicit opinions from those who 
>love the game.

>Dan Smith is going to be illustrating part (if not all) of the GURPS 
>Traveller book and has asked what style artwork says "Traveller".  He's 
>excited about the project and looking forward to helping produce a 
>product that will please as many people as possible -- especially the die 
>hard Traveller fans.

>I would like your opinions about what you think is the best example of 
>Traveller artwork -- and I would like them emailed to me directly rather 
>than cluttering up the list and risking another debate/flame war.

>Your help is definitely appreciated!

Niko, at this point, my best suggestion would be to look at the
artwork I have on Freelance Traveller
(http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller) and then have Dan
get in contact with Mike.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:09:12 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: 3rd TNE Novel

   OK, I'm sure this came up at some point before, but I wasn't around the
list then:
I liked the 1st 2 TNE novels - I'm pretty sure the 3rd didn't make it out
before GW went under, but does anyone know anything about it - manuscript,
plot summary, alternate publisher, etc?

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:33:42 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Douglas Berry wrote:

[snip]

>Free Trader Beowulf!
>Are you still resisting?
>We got some bad news
>We're the Zhodani
>
>Oohh, Beowulf
>(repeat and fade out)

I'm STILL waiting for someone with just a TAD of gumption to translate the
original Free Trader Beowulf transmission into Vilani.  Complete with snide
references to unreliable and unsafe Solomani technology.

Grammatical materials and whatnot are on the TravLang list webpage:
    <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

Go to it.

Myself, I'm too busy trying to put _Das Kapital_ into Sayat.  Maybe I'll
start with something easier, like something from _Macho Sluts_.  Same
difference, in the end.

- ------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                     Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                    kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:33:47 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Stepping up to the mike...

Douglas Berry wrote:

>>---------------------------------------------------------
>>"OK, I give up. How many Virushi _does_ it take to screw in a lightbulb?"
>
>"Only two, but don't ask me how they got in there"
>                                  -Kirsten Berry
>
>I am now asking for lightbulb jokes for the races from Alien Archive, or
>any other recently published setting/adventure.  I can't *wait* to see the
>Sayat jokes.
>
>To see what has gone before, go to
>
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/litebulb.html

Hm, well, a lot of existing jokes can easily be reconfigured for Sayat
purposes: e.g., what do you call a bunch of Sayat crowded into the ship's
locker?  A liquor cabinet!  Etc.

Preliminary estimate for the number of Concourse personnel required for
optimum replacement of a lightbulb:  14.  One to screw in the lightbulb,
one to requisition the new bulb from the manufacturing nest and handle the
"accounting", one to recycle the old lightbulb in an ecologically-friendly
fashion, six to secure the theatre of operations from hostile alien
invasion, two to handle the kids who are brought by to participate in the
process as part of their educational development, one to serve the drinks,
one to help everyone process the experience and their feelings about it,
and one more to bring the total up to the proven lucky number for lighting
fixtures.

- ------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                     Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                    kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:28:36 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Pearl Habour - Torpedoes

The Imagine those torpedoe bombers trying to lug 24" torps into the air
instead of those ~18" ones!

At 22:25 8/02/98 -0000, you wrote:
>US intelligence KNEW that an attack on Pearl Harbour was out of the
>question, because it would need shallow-running torpedoes, which they KNEW
>were not in the Japanese arsenal.
>
>They were. The attack was possible. It happened.... That's intelligence for
>you.
>
>But the torps weren't long lances, they were conventional
>shallow-runninngair-dropped types.
>
>IIRC the Japanese rather cleverly improvised armour-piercing bombs from
>14-inch naval shells, too.
>
>MJD.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 21:22:10 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Hello there:

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) wrote:

>> It gave me chills.
>
>Actually, it makes me quite sick to my stomach.  The way it reads to me is
>that *IG* is "Free Trader Beowulf" and Steve Jackson Games is going to
>"rescue" Traveller-- all hail SJG!  Bah!

I didn't quite read it that way.  And since I have been trying to make it 
a policy not to slam IG in public whether they deserve it or not,I will 
not speculate on what should or should not be done about their policies 
and unknown situation.

I honestly don't think Traveller needs rescuing.  It's the fans that will 
keep it alive no matter what company is putting out the current line for 
better or worse.

>Please tell us more.  I honestly can't see how a release schedule for GURPS
>could even hope to keep up with what Traveler players have been used to in
>the past.

How far in the past are we talking here?  I came in "late" on the 
Traveller phenomenon -- I bought the BBHB and a couple of alien modules 
when they first came out but did not start playing until a few years ago. 
 I never experienced the first releases and have been gathering the past 
publications wherever I can.

>With Steve Jackson, they could drop Traveller support the moment something
>else comes along.

This is true.  But Steve Jackson is a business man, for the most part, 
and Traveller seems to be a hot property at the moment.  The fans who 
continue to support it in whatever format it comes out will be the ones 
who dictate the length and extent of his interest, I would guess.

>> Count me still excited about any new Traveller product that comes out -- 
>> regardless of who is producing it.
>
>I guess so.  As long as it is aimed at Traveller *in general*, and not at
>SJG's "non-rebellion, Strephon-is-still-alive, non-canon" universe.
>Remember the huge stink that erupted when GDW released TNE-- with HEPlaR
>drives replacing reactionless Thrusters?  How about when IG released system
>after system for starship construction and/or combat and players bitched
>about no backwards-compatibility with previous material?  Whatever SJG
>comes up with that goes against everything in Traveller after 1116 will
>make those debates look insignificant.

It is indeed the alternate timeline.  There is talk about supplements 
with new spaceships, technology, aliens, etc. for after the tentative 
June (I re-read the passage) release.  And there will be rules for 
converting Traveller to GURPS and vice versa.  This makes it look as if 
we are not indeed to be forced into the GURPS system to play with 
"Steve's toys".  :-) 

>For those devoted fans that still play in the CT era, GURPS Traveller /may/
>be a good thing.  However, for those that prefer to play in either the MT-,
>TNE- and/or T4- eras, GURPS: Traveller would have to be pretty damn good to
>make them switch over.  Why switch to a clunky, rule saturated system like
>GURPS when they are already happily using a house-modified version of MT,
>TNE, or T4.x?

There's no need to switch over!  Don't we all glean what we like/can/want 
to use from all the other various and sordid Traveller products to use in 
our own games?  This will be much the same.  GURPS Traveller can be, at 
the least, merely another source for ideas.

I have nothing personal against the GURPS system myself.  I would not use 
it for Traveller, though.  Our group clings to our LBBs and the Classic, 
and there is no reason to switch over to glean what might be interesting 
from any other sources.

Those of us who know and use GURPS products know what to expect, and I 
myself am expecting at least a few things of worth and note to pop out of 
this publication.  I am hoping SJG will not disappoint us and betting he 
won't.

Thanks for the space,

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #121
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 9 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 122



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Warships
Re: GURPS Traveller
IISS Service Anthem [repost]
Atlantis class destroyer (TL11)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re:Some questions AND More questions on TNE
IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)
A call to arms... (was RE: GURPS Traveller)
Re: Jump drives
Re: The jumpdrive debate
Re: The jumpdrive debate
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: 3rd TNE Novel
Re: Imperial Anthem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:28:43 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Warships

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 06:14 PM 2/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >The real world scale of warships (USN) works like this:
> 
> >Battleships (BB) - None exist in active service
> 
> And that is a bloody crime.
> --
> 
> +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
> | Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
> |      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
> |------------------------------------------|
> | "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
> | do it for the love of it, then you do it |
> | for a few friends, and finally you do it |
> | for the money."               -- Moliere |
> +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
> 
> 
Yep.  But they may be back when big EM guns and DE weapons
- -w- guided munitions become technically feasible.  These
would have to be a new generation though, the IOWAs are just 
too old and manpower intensive (i.e. uneconomical) to use.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 21:36:02 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>>It gave me chills.
>
>It inspired me.
>
>FREE TRADER BEOWULF
>to the tune of "Tommy, Can You Hear Me?"
>by Pete Townshend

You know, this is one of the things I love about the list....and that 
worries me.

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:00:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: IISS Service Anthem [repost]

Finally dug it oug of my archives (I wrote it, though I give credit to a
Milieu 0 pseudonym below).  The tune is the lyrical part of Gustav Holst's
"Jupiter," about half-way through.  You'll recognize it when you hear it
- -- I've always thought it needed words. 


SERVICE ANTHEM OF

THE IMPERIAL INTERSTELLAR SCOUT SERVICE

(Music by Gustav Holst, Terran, -2648 to -2588)
(Lyric by Aram Synof, Sylean, -37 to present)



CHORUS:  Though the stars be dim and winsome wan
         And ever off so far,
         We shall bear Sylea's flame e'er on
         Rekindle every star.

Fro-om Delphi unto Windhorn,
Terra's outskirts unto Vland,
We will bear Civ'lization
To every being's hand.

[CHORUS]

To each human, to each other,
To each planet, to each race,
Shall Sylea be mother,
And show her shining face.

[CHORUS]

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:03:32 -0600
From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Atlantis class destroyer (TL11)

I'd like any opinions people might have about the following design...I'm
planning on using it (or something like it) in a project of mine, and
I'd like to see if any sees any glaring weaknesses.

Please note: the design is TL11 (for campaign reasons), thus Nuclear
Dampers and Meson Screens are not available. Nothing I can do about it
:).

Now, without further ado..

Atlantis class destroyer
Designed by Seraphim Industries, Inc

Statistics
  Tons: 1900std ( USL Long Box )
  Volume: 26600m3
  Mass (L/C): 39899t/39339t
  Dimensions: 59.6 x 30m 14.8m
  Size: 9
  Crew: 40/63
  Passengers High/Med: 0/1
  Passengers Low: 0
  Troops/Science: 0/0
  Frozen Watch: 0
  Cargo: 10std
  Cost: 7,721.72MCr
  Maintenance: 1397
  Tech Level: 11

Electronics
  Controls (/Ar:40 [228]): Dynamic, High automation.
    3xFib Comp (CM:0.4 CP:2.5). Bridge.
  Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1000AU, 0MW).
  Sensors: 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm], 0.02MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 5MW).
    11xLIDAR (14.5 [500kkm], 1MW).
  Survey/Science: None.
  ECM: 1xDecp. Jammer (11, 0.63MW). 1xPas. Jammer (15, 2.5MW).
  Signatures: Vis: -1, IR: -0.5, Act: -0.5, Neu: -1, Grav: 1.

Performance
            2 Jump (190std/pc fuel)
          3/3 Maneuver (/Thruster:3255MW)
          0/0 Contra Grav
          n/a Atmosphere
            5 Power (/Fus:4524MW,6 mo)
          600 Battery (0/153.4/30.1)
        404.2 Fuel
 0/55/10/0/16 Accommodations (/Ar: 40 [228])
          512 Life Support (/Type:St,Nm /St)
            2 G-Comp
            0 ESA
            3 Sandcasters (/AV:40 /Cans:30)
            0 Damper Turrets
            0 Damper Screen
            0 Meson Screen
            0 Force Field
            0 Gravtics
     40 [172] Armor, 27 Structure

Weaponry
  1x2000mj Particle Cannon (+3) 2/7-7-4-3 [1,100/224-224-114-57] (LR)
  2x550mj Laser Cannons (+3) 1/3-3-2-0 [1,100/59-56-28-14] (LR)
  3x259mj Laser Turrets (+3) 1/3-2-0-0 [1,100/40-22-11-5] (LR)
  1xMissile Array Canister 20/3 (/Mag:46 /MFD:500,000km)
    w/18 Independent DetLaser 4d6/3 [113] 4G/12 End:24hr 
      Laser:1000AU PEMS:12.5 
    2/2 ECM Missiles 3G/10 End:24hr Laser:1000AU PEMS:12 
      Active Jammer:11
  4xMissile Racks Canister 20/3 (/Mag:49 /MFD:500,000km)
    w/18 Independent DetLaser 1d6/2 [36] 7G/12 End:24hr Laser:1000AU 
      PEMS:12.5 
    w/2 Recon Missiles 3G/10 End:24hr Laser:1000AU PEMS:13 
  
Features
  19xAirlock
  1xDocking Umbilical
  1xElectronic Shop (6std)
  1xMachine Shop (10std)
  1xSickbay (8std)
  1xShip's Locker (1std)
  2xPrisoner Capacity (2/0/0)
  1xArmory(.18std)
  1xGym (2.5std)
  1xTactical Operations Center (5std)
  1xReady Room (5std)
  2xOrdinary Galley (Cap:30)
  1xFull Galley (Cap:10)
  2xDrop Capsule Launcher (4ready capsules each)

Small Craft
  2xUSL Grapple (35std craft)

Backups
  Drives: None
  Screens: None
  Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km). 1xLaser (1000AU).
  Sensors: 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm]).
  Survey/Science: None
  ECM: 1xDecp. Jammer (11). 1xPassive Jammer (15).
  Power & Fuel: None

Crew Details
  4xMnvr. 1xElec. 23xEngr. 3xMain. 12xGunn. 3xScrn.  8xTrps. 9xCmnd. 
  2xStew. 1xMed.

The Atlantis class destroyer is the newest addition to the Tanis Navy.
The ship is the most advanced of the fleet, and incorporates a great
deal of stealth technology and powerful weapon systems to make it a
formidible platform.

The ship's primary weapon system is the 18 LRT-78 missiles contained in
launch tubes on the dorsal surface of the ship. Each of these
shipkillers displaces 22 cubic meters, signifcantly larger than the
Imperial norm. The LRT-78 puts this space to good use, carrying four
independently targetable 500 kiloton nuclear-detonation lasers. Upon
terminal approach, the missile deploys the four warheads and a ECM chaff
package to confuse CIWS systems. Upon reaching firing range, each
warhead detonates, peppering the target craft with a barrage of
concentrated laser blasts.

Backing up the LRT-78 missiles are 72 SRT-12 missiles contained in
launch tubes mounted on the sides of the ship. The SRT-12 missile is
slightly larger than the Imperial standard missile, but is capable of
7Gs of acceleration.

Along with the combat missile, the Atlantis carries 2 ARQ-78 ECM
missiles and 8 H12a Sensor drones. 

All of the Atlantis' missiles and drones, like most Tanian missiles, are
fully independent weapons that are capable of intelligent target
selection (note: Tanian robotic brain technology is TL 13, two levels
higher than their base TL 11). Thus, the Atlantis can launch any number
of missiles in a salvo (all missiles have their own launch port),
allowing for devestating missile attacks. 

To supplement the primary missile weaponry, the Atlantis also carries
formidible beam weaponry.

The spine of the ship is dominated by the 2000mj particle cannon. This
weapon is new for the Tanian Navy, designed with the assistance of
Krahz/Chk engineers. It combines long range with fearsome close-range
damage.

Twin 550mj lasers are also mounted forward to provide additional
firepower.
 
For CIWS and defense, the ship is equipped with 3 259mj laser turrets
and 3 sandcaster batteries.

The ship is heavily armored. The primary hull has 14cm of crystalliron,
while the crew quarters and bridge have an additional 20cm. This follows
the standard Tanian design philosophy of crew protection - emergency low
berths are provided for the entire crew.

The primary defensive system of the ship is its impressive (and
expensive) ECM suite. The ship is fully equipped with stealth hull
design, passive jammers, and active deceptive jammers. The large power
plant has advanced masking systems, shrouding both heat and neutrino
emissions. In addition, the ship has enough battery power to operate in
a zero-emission mode (life support, passive sensors, controls, and
communications (in receive mode only)) for 24 hours.

The crew is comfortable within the heavily armored hull. The command
staff is provided large staterooms - the captain also has a ready room.
The rest of the crew has individual small staterooms. A sickbay, repair
shops, armory, and gym round out the rooms. In addition, the ship has a
tactical action center, designed to help formulate
combat strategies and coordinate wartime activities. 

A single squad of TC (Tactical Combat, called "ticks") troops is housed
on board the ship, for anti-boarding defences and special missions.
Since the stealth abilities of the Atlantis make it an attractive covert
insertion vehicle, the ship carries a pair of drop capsule launchers.

The ship is unstreamlined and has no frontier refueling abilities. This
is in line with current Tanian combat doctrine, which places the
refueling responsability on the logistical carriers (who also resupply
the missile salvos). For all interface activities, the ship carries two
35std boats.

The class is named for mythical or legendary cities out of Earth
history. Many of the crews have also "unofficially" named the computers
on their vessels - it is known that the computers of the Camelot,
Oylmpus, Asgard, and Rivendell are "Merlin", "Zeus",
"Thor", and "Gandalf", respectively. 

Hull #  Name     
=====================
DD-1741 Atlantis     
DD-1742 Camelot      
DD-1743 Shangri-La   
DD-1744 Olympus      
DD-1745 Asgard       
DD-1746 Rivendell
   

- -- 
+-----------------------------------------------------+
| THE AKINS - Andy, Chris, & Matt                     |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
| E-Mail:             igor@ames.net                   |
| Family Web Page:    www.ames.net/igor/              |
| Traveller Web Page: www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:35:23 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Doug Berry wrote:

<snip>
>James, I can see where you are getting that impression, but this *is* a
>return to the Classic Setting, so the connection is obvious.  SJG is one of
>the better companies in this industry.  Their commitment to gamers is
>beyond reproach.  Steve, for all his ego, is one of the best designers
>around, right behind Croc.

   The classic setting? U mean Merchants and Mercenaries?  Fight the evil
Zhos? That classic setting? 
   SJG?  I hardly see their stuff anywhere. And this is LA. Gotta be one of
the larger markets.  The only place i can find any of their stuff (and IG
stuff for that matter) is a serious FLGS that carries pretty much EVERYTHING.
9 out of 10 places i can get TSR and WEG and FASA stuff (and GDW, once upon a
time), i don't see SJG or IG.  SJG is a niche if there ever was one.  IG is a
pale shadow of GDW.  IMNSHO, of course. : )

<snip>
>It's called burst support.  You release a large number of follow-up

It's also the sign of iminent abandonment.  : )

>products quickly while interest is still high, and when the wave crests,
>you can look at the level of dedicated support and plan releases more
>carefully.  Earthdawn had a large number of excellent products released
>right after publication, and now they've throttled back to almost nothing.

<snip>
>>> Count me still excited about any new Traveller product that comes out --
>>> regardless of who is producing it.
>>
>>I guess so.  As long as it is aimed at Traveller *in general*, and not at
>>SJG's "non-rebellion, Strephon-is-still-alive, non-canon" universe.
>
>The setting is the Strephon lives! universe, but since the settings of MT
>and TNE were fiascoes (IMHO! IMHO!) I'm looking forward to it.

   Fiascoes?  : ) "Strephon Lives" is stepping out of the shower (or the
"Real" Strephon in MT   ; )  )  The whole "setting" is a dangerous precedent.
I call that a fiasco.  If SJG is the future of Traveller, then that future is
gonna be a slow fadeaway into the existing RPGer niche.  Very little new blood
ever comes and stays via SJG.  They should call G:T, GigaTraveller.  : )
   IMNSHO, TNE was the ONLY version of Traveller to have any kind of Vision
behind it.  Any kind of story to tell.  A general revamping to a more popular
(at the time) rules set and a consistent ground-up system didn't hurt either.
   
<snippo>
>I'm sure there will be arguments, perhaps even threats of a list split, and
>much righteous fury spewed about.  But it's still your game.  I can still
>sit down with the basic LBBs and run a game of Traveller.  I can also do
>the same with all the Classic Books, MT, T4, or CORPS.  (I sold all my TNE
>rules, sorry.)

Well... us TNEers are happy on our own reservation.  I like projecting a
presence here, too, though. : )  We're Travellers, too.

<snip>
>G:T is more aimed at the GURPS crowd than at hard-core Traveller fiends
>like us.  Just like the SJG/WW crossovers, it was intended to add to the
>scope of GURPS, and increase exposure for the parent line.

I'll believe it'll add to GURPS.  Doubt it will increase exposure any
appreciable level for IG.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 01:29:30 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re:Some questions AND More questions on TNE

Cygnus wrote:

>My friends and I are new to TNE and have a couple of questions.

   Welcome!  You've joined an elite and prestigious group of Travellers. : ) 
I would recommend you join us on the TNE-RCES list, too (Sub info available on
request).

>1.  This is concerning Blunt Trauma damage.  I find the book unclear with
>the point of Blunt Trauma damage.  I understand it if you are wearing
>armour.  What about if you are not wearing armour?  The book makes it sound
>as if you do not take BT damage if you are not wearing armour.  Is this
>correct?

   One wouldn't take 'blunt trauma' damage.  Blunt trauma damage is defined as
damage that is caused even though it doesn't penetrate (or penetrates through)
armor.  Without armor, blunt trauma is neglegible (or assumed to be included,
take your pick).

>2.  This is concerning skills.  I understand what it takes for somebody to
>be taught a skill.  But how long does it take to earn an experience point
>from being taught and practicing a skill?

   Page 134 says under Instruction, 2nd paragraph:
   "If the number of students is less than half of the instructor's
Instruction skill level, each student gainst 3 experience points.   If the
number of students is half or more of the instructor's skill level, each
student gains 1 expericence point. "
    The only way to gain points by "practicing" is by earning them in
adventure.  

and seperately he wrote...
>Sorry but I have two more quick questions,

Don't be sorry.  A sophont with fine tastes like yourself deserves a forum for
dialog and to ask your questions. : )

>1.  The book says that a PC can shoot a 3 different tagrets in a combat turn.
>Is there any to hit mod when changing targets?

Nope.  There are the mods for the recoil.  And only the first shot counts as
aimed (the others are quick shots...  (+1Diff Mod to aimed fire... not
possible at Extreme Range).

>2.  Is there any way for a PC to target a body location with an aimed shot?
>According to the book, a PC aims at the target, determines if they hit,
>determines hit locations, if that location is covered (ie behind a rock) the
>shot hits the rock not the target.  Is this all correct or did I miss
>something?

The answer would have to be negative.  I've added a house rule adding one diff
mod to short range (impossible at higher ranges w/o a scope/cybereye, laser
sight).

>Thanks for the patience,

No prob.  Welcome. : )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 01:09:04 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)

deadeye:
> Richard A. Flores wrote:
> > Dead Eye wrote:
> > I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
> > Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
> > Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?
> Yes.  Better have the correct days codes though, or you will wind up
> with the correct box but squawking yestredays code.  This shows up as a
> "negative" interrogation, meaning the fighter marks you as
> 
> "Kill me, please"

*snigger*  More likely a pretty red dot (unless it is a more fashion
oriented AI or more in touch with its virtual feminine side, in which case
it would be a nice shade of chartreuse) accompanied with a suggested "quick
kill" payload and "Shall I arm the missile and warm the tea, sir?".

> How to get the correct codes?  Seeing as the can change very fast and
> multiple times(ie what was good 1 hour ago ain't good anymore,) fat
> chance.

This is feasible, but...

> How do they change?  Manually.  Its a huge pain in the butt to remember
> to swap squawks especially since you may be "busy" at the time dodging
> rocks, fighters, etc.

Given that maintaining communications is not so easy, with all the detritus
of battle and nuclear detonations (intended and unintended) floating
around... and then there's that jump-thingy that always seems to get in the
way.  How do you calculate this when your ships are weeks/months/years out
of communication?  Long campaigns are even longer in the Third Imperium.
Hell, wasn't the Fifth over by the time authorization to fire made it's way
from Core to the Marches?  ;-)

I think that an algorithm for determining it based on time is probably our
best wave in that direction, but then we must assume perfect time
measurement.  System name, ship tonnage, distance from Sylea all summed and
multiplied by the Emperor's birthday, perhaps?

What do you do when you ARE the good guys, and you fail authentication?
Shoot back?  Or do you just... [drum roll, please]:

"I dunno, just fly casual..."

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 01:09:07 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: A call to arms... (was RE: GURPS Traveller)

Friends, Terrans, TMLers, lend me your little black dice with red pips and
yellow sunbursts... nevermind.

[neat stuff and other stuff snipped, sorry, Niko.]
> I honestly don't think Traveller needs rescuing.  It's the fans that will 
> keep it alive no matter what company is putting out the current line for 
> better or worse.

While it may not need rescuing, it *could* do with some marketing and
popularizing, but it is my personal experience and training (okay, so a
semester of marketing as an MBA student doesn't count) that word o' mouth
has the greatest weight amongst role-players (just as it does with most
consumer groups).  Who better to lead the "revolution" than die-hard fans?
As a group, we Travellers tend to be isolationist and clique-oriented,
permitting only the enlightened and ordained (if they get the Vargr and the
kitchen match joke, they're OK) into our secret societies.  Hell, there
isn't even a "Travellers' Aid Society" for new Travellers!  And on a good
day this list is a "Travellers' Flame-For-All."

To put credits where my mandibles are, I personally began evangelizing today
(oh, yesterday!).  We began our little grass-roots Traveller propagandizing
in one FLGS earlier this week - putting up attractive, if monochrome, flyers
proclaiming the agenda for our coming media blitz - and we will broaden it
further in the coming months to other FLGS.  This particular FLGS, like most
in Houston, have free gaming space available for use by anyone who cares to
reserve the space (nobody but RPGA does, BTW -- and magickers and 40k-ers
don't count).  Now every other weekend, we take up all of their business
hours (roughly 12:00 to 18:00) at one table to demonstrate the benefits of
Travelling.  All comers are welcomed to pull up a chair and at least
observe, or join the game if they so choose.  We (our group of five
dedicated players) are continuing an ongoing campaign [Memory Delta] based
loosely on Senor Miller's "Memory Alpha" and today, before a small audience
the dread Althaxi of Senor Baker's "Vestiges" was slain (or so they think.
Ha!  Thanks for a great adventure, Dave).  How this short adventure got
interspersed is another story.  Some observers wandered in and out, but it
was after all a Sunday; my time during the week is severely limited
(professors and supervisors think I should show up once in a while for some
unfathomable reason).  We had fun, and successfully exposed many unwary
victims to Chris Foss t-shirt art, 0.5d6, and the invitation to peruse the
"spare" rule books.  We'll be back every other Sunday, and then begin the
rotation through the other FLGS, conventions, et cetera here in Houston as
time permits.  [Any chance we can get Senor Foss to do some new t-shirts?
Mine are starting to wear thin...  Something with battle dress and big
explosions catches the eye!]

I also flamed RPGA again yesterday about not explaining to me the arcane
process of establishing sanctioned T4 events in mono-syllabic terms that my
social sciences-oriented intellect can absorb.

Anyway, would someone else get out of the house and go play in front of an
audience, run an event at a 'con, or just ambush some unwary peasant in the
grocery store and demand that he pay proper fealty to Emperor Cleon?  [FWIW,
they sold more T4 stuff, I'm told, after we left than they have all month.]

> This is true.  But Steve Jackson is a business man, for the most part, 
> and Traveller seems to be a hot property at the moment.  The fans who 
> continue to support it in whatever format it comes out will be the ones 
> who dictate the length and extent of his interest, I would guess.

Hmmm... if this is the case, and venom, er - emotion, yeah, that's it, on
this list is any indication, should we not still have LBBs in print?

> There's no need to switch over!  Don't we all glean what we like/can/want 
> to use from all the other various and sordid Traveller products to use in 
> our own games?  This will be much the same.  GURPS Traveller can be, at 
> the least, merely another source for ideas.

Have to agree here...  Hell, I *loathe* the "eructation game" but I'll buy
the Traveller edition -- "'Cuz It sez Trahvellar, doll, that's why Ah gotsta
buyz it..."  [Many spouses shake their heads in futile understanding of the
malady.]

> Those of us who know and use GURPS products know what to expect, and I 
> myself am expecting at least a few things of worth and note to pop out of 
> this publication.  I am hoping SJG will not disappoint us and betting he 
> won't.

I agree.  Competition is a good thing, even if marketed as
"non-competition."  GTrav will be compared with T4, like it or not, and I
hope that IG will be up to competing with another publisher for quality and
timeliness.  Why is it that we always like competition when it's someone
else's market share that's at stake?  That's all anyone ever asked of
so-called "anti-trust" laws anyway was protection of their own personal
interests...

Enough rambling on my part...  flame away.

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:46:43 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump drives

Sat, 7 Feb 98 16:57:29 -0700, Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
> Where does it specifically state (in canon) that there is an energy
>signature, and how specific does canon get in describing what form the
>signature takes? Why *wouldn't* a cloud of hydrogen materializing in
>normal space, being bombarded by the solar wind, produce an energy
>signature?

Having to assume that the authors just happened to mention a
secondary effect of a cloud of hydrogen appearing, while
not mentioning the cloud itself, is just sort of thing I
would like avoid.

>Well, I guess the point that members of this side of the debate are
>trying to make, is that the hydrogen bubble fits the background *better*
>(more consistantly) then most other theories.

An I guess we will have to disagree.  I feel it doesn't, and
in fact, really can't..


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:00:34 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: The jumpdrive debate

Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:25:18 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>This thread (IMO) is getting alnost as bad as the one on Pirates a few
>months ago.

Pirates!  He said pirates!  Flame him!

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:32:22 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: The jumpdrive debate

>This thread (IMO) is getting alnost as bad as the one on Pirates a few
>months ago.
>
>Dom


It's a form of jump dementia. Apparently, even thinking about jumpspace
makes you go bonkers.

I retract all my doubts about the ability of jumpspace to cause insanity.

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 01:41:38 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

>I was wondering if RESOURCES would be the new monetary unit?

Yes, I can see how there could be a particular material that is found to
be the ideal material for the nanofabs to make "anything".  This material
would then become the standard for value.  If you wanted to "purchase" a
vehicle, you would need enough material for the nanofabs to make one.

>Also, with the advent of medical nanobots, would mankind create
>immortality?  i.e., 'bots that constantly repaor cell damage, thus
>eliminating the aging process?
>

I think medical nanobots would become just one of many bizarre
technologies (cloning, etc) that in the wrong hands could be disastrous:

- -used a biological weapon
- -inventor terminated and technology hidden for the use of a few
- -espionage from world to world


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 03:11:31 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: 3rd TNE Novel

On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:09:12 -0600 "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
writes:

>I liked the 1st 2 TNE novels 

What are the titles and author(s) of the first two books?


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:53:02 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Anthem

Daniel Ray Lane writes:
>IMPERIAL ANTHEM  (The "Voice of Sylea") - Please note this is "Under
>Construction"
> 
>[...]
> 
>One race
>Issue of Terra 

What's the date of composition? If it is for early Milieu 0, then the
Solomani Hypothesis haven't even been proposed yet. It dosen't get
finally verified (although it does gain widespread acceptance) before
the 6th Century.

>Long live the honor
>of the black sun

Yellow sun until 200something, no official color after that.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #122
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 9 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 123



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

3D Star Maps
OT: Ringworld idea
NASA Launches from Kennedy
Re: The jumpdrive debate
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: chair dogs
Re: Answers WAS Questions
Re: Jump drives
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Communist Writings in Sayat (was Re: GURPS Traveller)
Re: Flat Campaigns
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re:Some questions AND More questions on TNE
Re: chair dogs
Re: [T98#115] GURPS Traveller
Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: Questions
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Heplar
Jumpgates, take 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:51:26 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: 3D Star Maps

Yo Folks,
     The latest Hippocras data has been merged into the ChView databases.
You can upload them, and a Windows viewer (plus an experimental Java one)
from http://members.nova.org/~sol/chview.
     I've used the software to run a 3D space campaign (BugHunters). If you
want to "map the imperium", you could do far worse than use this for
visualisation.
          Cheers,
               Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:57:46 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: OT: Ringworld idea

Yo Folks,
     Although not exactly Traveller related, I had this idea I thought
people on the List might be interested in.
     I was playing around raytracing a ringworld the other day. The
classical Niven-esque ringworld has a large ring, with an inner ring of
"shadow squares" designed to give the semblence of night and day to the
surface of the world. In such a world, though, the diurnal period will be
the same everywhere and thus the climate will depend only on the elevation
of the surface.
     So I thought, what if the "shadow squares" were not square? Instead
imagine a inner band with oval portions cut out of it. This would mean that
"day" lasted longer in the center of the ring than on the edge. Thus you
would have a broad band of climates across the surface of the ring more
like a terrestrial world.
     Does this make sense or am I missing something obvious.

     My final raytrace is up on my Imperial gallery at
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/imperial.htm. (POVRay sources available
upon request.) I took a little artistic lisence and crinkled the edge of
the circular cut-outs to resemble the Imperial Starburst. Now THAT's
propaganda...

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:37:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: NASA Launches from Kennedy

Is there a public record of when launches are planned on the net? I've a
friend going to Florida in Mid March who's interested...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:28:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The jumpdrive debate

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:25:18 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>>This thread (IMO) is getting alnost as bad as the one on Pirates a few
>>months ago.
>
>Pirates!  He said pirates!  Flame him!

Uh Oh! Run for the Hundred Diameter Limit at full speed!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:25:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>   IMNSHO, TNE was the ONLY version of Traveller to have any kind of Vision
>behind it.  Any kind of story to tell.  A general revamping to a more popular
>(at the time) rules set and a consistent ground-up system didn't hurt either.

<jump at flamebait>

Definitely IYNSHO.
And I always thought that MT had quite a serious, somewhat more believeable
plotline behind it.

</jump at flamebait>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:44:28 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

J-Man wrote:


>> >Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel played
>> >it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie make
>> >more sense.
>> 
>> Do you know if they ever released it on video in that format?
>> 
>> Dom
>
>I don't think so.  Look for "Director's Cut".

Even that is only 4 hours.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:14:19 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Answers WAS Questions

Dom wrote:


>Acceleration with thruster plates peaks at 6G -...

Where did you get that?  I know in CT the max accelleration was 6 G, but
that was explained as the max. acceleration tolerable by humans for extended
periods of time.  With T4 it's possible to have any accelleration up to the
boat./ship being just drives power plant and fuel.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:19:31 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Jump drives

Bolie IV wrote:


>When you head out to jump, make sure that none of the drop-tank
>retrievers are in your path...  if drop-tanks are used enough, then
>there's probably a thriving business retrieving them...

My favorite character has a fleet of small tankers that he uses as
drop-tanks.  When they separate from the starship, the onboard crew just
pilots them back so they can onload more fuel and be ready for the next
launch.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:54:27 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

J-Man wrote:

>I would think John Brunner's works would be way too outdated to be of
>any consequence?  Or has he written anything since the 70's?  Last book
>I read was "Total Eclipse".

You know, when you write about people, the story is never outdated.
Technologies change, places change, modes of living change, but people, in
all of recorded history, people do not change.  Try reading some of the
stuff from the earlier part of the century or even a good modern translation
of the classics.  You will be amazed at the similarities between the
characters in Shakespeare or Chaucer and the folks you know personally.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 03:07:22 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Communist Writings in Sayat (was Re: GURPS Traveller)

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)wrote

> I'm STILL waiting for someone with just a TAD of gumption to translate the
> original Free Trader Beowulf transmission into Vilani.
> Myself, I'm too busy trying to put _Das Kapital_ into Sayat.  Maybe I'll
> start with something easier, like something from _Macho Sluts_. 

I thought it was the people in Macho Sluts who were easy, not the work
itself.
 
> Same difference, in the end.

Why don't you try some shorter (of course _everything_ else is shorter
than Das Kapital with the possible exception of Rememberance of Things
Past) piece of communist writing or song such as The Communist Manifesto
or possibly The Internationale ?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:41:06 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

>> What's with all this hand waving about the flat maps.  When the players
ask
>> why they are flat, I say, "Because this is a 2 dimensional representation
of
>> the 3 dimensional reality."
>>
>> If they don't like that, I say, "Hey lighten up, it's only a game."
>
>If I'm ever in that situation I'll dig out the Star Force: Alpha
>Centauri star map, point out a star, and ask then to tell me what stars
>are within jump 3 of it. :-)

I take it that's one of those 3D maps with the Z coordinate given as +/-N
printed next to the star symbol.

Those are only fun to use if you like trig.  They add realism at the expense
of playability.  Especially if you use a game system like the Traveller jump
drives.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:00:18 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

- -----Original Message-----
From: John Lansford <johnl@vnet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders


>On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:05:00 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>>I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
>>Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
>>Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?
>>
>First, how did you get it?

I thought I put that in the orginal post, salvage from earlier kills.
>
>Second, there are many, many settings for an IFF transponder to be set
>at. Pilots and vehicle drivers are given that setting right before a
>mission. You might have the equipment but no way of knowing what
>setting to use.

Got it!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:29:18 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Dan Lane wrote:


>J-Man wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking they would be stealth-shielded until the enemy fleet is
>> all around them, then they would all go into jump.  If a jump field near
>> a planet can do damage, I am assuming the same for the hapless fleet.
>
>Gotta know where the enemey fleet is at first, more than a week in
>advance (two for the round trip for the data).  The the mines  have to
>be close enogh that they don't get detonated before they blow.
>Ingenious yet hideously expensive and thus, perhaps uneconomical for a
>war effort.

I don't think they understand J-Man.  You want the mines to wait until the
enemy vessels are within X diameters before they activate.  Right?  So that
instead of jumping away from or into the fleet, they will just explode doing
horrible damage to the enemy.  Right?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:23:27 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re:Some questions AND More questions on TNE

At 01:29 AM 09/02/98 EST, Gary wrote:
>Cygnus wrote:

Snip

>>2.  Is there any way for a PC to target a body location with an aimed shot?
>>According to the book, a PC aims at the target, determines if they hit,
>>determines hit locations, if that location is covered (ie behind a rock) the
>>shot hits the rock not the target.  Is this all correct or did I miss
>>something?
>
>The answer would have to be negative.  I've added a house rule adding one
diff
>mod to short range (impossible at higher ranges w/o a scope/cybereye, laser
>sight).
>
>>Thanks for the patience,
>
>No prob.  Welcome. : )
>
>Gary
>
The statement about cover is correct, and the rules don't say you can aim
for locations, however we use a rule from Twlight:2000 that an aimed shot
can be aimed at a particular location, at a +1 Diff Mod. Note that this
means that obly the first shot (or first 3 with a Laser Sight) can be aimed
this way.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:12:24 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
> 
> >Herbert actually vetted the script and final film, and apparently felt it
> >was a good job.
> 
> Wasn't the film cut from something like 8 hours, and the ending changed?
Whoa... In that case, i d like to see a directors cut...!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:16:56 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: [T98#115] GURPS Traveller

> >Love it or hate it, the ad in the new Pyramid magazine has to be seen.
> >(That would be issue #28 for anyone that's counting.)
> 
> >"Free Trader Beowulf...
> >Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
> >Can you hear me?
> >Come in, Free Trader Beowulf...
> >Hang in there, Beowulf...
Hmm, why do I feel that WE are the Free Trader Beowulf, and SJG is the
help that s on it s way? 
Why, that would make IG.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:15:57 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products

Hi All,

Way behind on TMLs as usual, but just wanted to thank Peter Newman for his
review of our BITS product 101 Lifeforms. Like all BITS products, this was
written by members of CORE.

>This book is significant :)	

Hopefully so!

>Details on getting CORE products can be found at their website at:
>http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/home.htm

I'm afraid that lack of time on my part means that this site hasn't been
kept up to date. The BITS and CORE web sites will shortly be revised to
appear under the domains:

bits.org.uk
core.org.uk

However, Traveller fans in the UK can obtain the 101 books (101 Cargos, 101
Plots, 101 Rendezvous, 101 Travellers, 101 Lifeforms) from any good RPG
shop (we distribute the 101 series through both Esdevium Games and Hobby
Games so even if you can't see it on the shelf, your FLGS can order it for
you).

For fans in the US, the low cost of each book (about $7-8) means that it's
not very efficient to mail order it from us (air mail costs a lot!). We are
investigating the possibility of 'proper' distribution in the US, but this
process has been held up because of a lack of contact currently with IG
(California). Of course, it may be possible for some US FLGS's to order
direct from Esdevium or Hobby Games in the UK. If anyone has any contacts
in the business, please get in touch.

Otherwise, as soon as I can confirm the availability of BITS products in
the USA et al, I'll let the TML know.

Incidentally, having been out for a while, has everyone heard that SJG
WON'T be going to the US GenCon this year, due to the increased booth
prices charged by WotC? I wonder what IG's thoughts are (i.e. can they
afford a booth at all?). What will happen to the UK GenCon? Anyone got any
information on this? [Apologies if it has already been discussed.]

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)
Coordinating CORE (Traveller Product Development Group)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:02:23 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

Stephen Johnson wrote:


>    ::CLICK::  Hey, where ARE the military Chaplins in Traveller?  I mean
come
>on I seriously doubt every last living sentient in the Traveller Universe
is an
>Athiest. ;) And Militaries are notorious for supporting/providing Religious
>support and justification for the actions they take.
>
>    Now I'm not suggesting that we create pan-Imperium religions but I
don't
>think the various Militaries of the Imperium would ignore them either.
They're
>just too useful as regards the "intangables" that motivate and drive
soldiers.
>So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle
them?

I would take a clue from Starship Troopers (the novel) and make them just
like any other military character.  A marine chaplain would be trained as a
marine, a navy chaplain as a sailor, etc.  "In the infantry everybody
drops."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:23:03 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Questions

Daniel Ray Lane wrote:


>Bolie Williams IV wrote:

>> One thing no one accounts for in any ship design system I've ever seen
>> is that bigger ships will have a theoretical maximum acceleration that
>> is lower than smaller ships.  This is because the strength of a support
>> structure is dependent on the cross sectional area while the mass (and
>> therefore the force it generates when under acceleration) is dependent
>> on the volume.  As an example, if you take a column that is 10 meters
>
>I believe this is related to the principle/mechanical behavior called
>"buckling."
>
>The assertion is true, as it is with ships today, although the primary
>factor there is transverse strength (cross sectional) vice longitudinal
>(lengthwise).

Since neither Dave nor Guy have said anything, I will.  In FF&S2 this is
addressed.  Not with words, but in the design sequence.  When designing a
hull, you have to find it's structural factor (SF).  This takes into account
just the phenomina under discussion.  This is why for a 1KTd ship the
structure takes up 0.0026% of the total while on a 1MTd ship it takes up
0.0832% of the total volume if both ships are built using superdense
structural material and designed to pull 1 G.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 03:41:11 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

J-Man wrote

>What I was getting at, is, when mankind has the ability to create
>whatever he/she wants, the only thing still needed would be the
>RESOURCES to create with.  Even NanoFabs need matter to create with.
>
>I was wondering if RESOURCES would be the new monetary unit?

What do you mean new?  Resources are the oldest coin around.  Look around,
you see people trading on the future of resources.  The common medium of
exchange is money, but they are speculating on the resources.  I bet you've
heard of sugar futures, gold futures, pork bellies, soy beans, etc., they
are all resources from which things are made.

>Also, with the advent of medical nanobots, would mankind create
>immortality?  i.e., 'bots that constantly repair cell damage, thus
>eliminating the aging process?

Ah, now you've hit on why the Imps would discourage the use of
nanotechnology.  Antiagathics, such a mainstay of SF in general seems to be
nix and verboten in the Imperial realm.  Out-side the empire who knows what
you would find.

You might try reading *A is for Anything*.  The author (who's name escapes
me just now) deals with exactly this question.  His technology is not nano
but it will duplicate anything, even people.  It doesn't even need
resources, just an original.  In it some things are labeled one of a kind
and duplicating them is a capital crime.  But then again, so is dis'in' your
master.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 03:25:07 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Heplar

Shadow wrote:

>Some things *can't* be greatly improved over their original form. Both
>electric motors and transformers were over 90% efficient from their
>introduction. And they haven't improved much since. Thiey've gotten
>lighter, and new materials make the remaining inefficiencies less
>important.
>
>You get improvements in things discovered before theory can explain
>them. And in things where the technology limits how well the theory can
>be applied (that's what happened with semiconductors). Others aren't
>thought of until theory points them out. And then, if the
>*implementation* technology allows, you wind up with a "perfected" tech
>almost immediately.

This makes sense.  But in the case of HEPlaR, I was thinking of improvements
based on the greater understanding of gravity and the resultant improvements
in materials that brings about.  After all if it's possible to make a
diamond the size and shape of a picture window, I should think that this
would have some bearing on the matter.  If the plasma were held a little
longer and made a little hotter, I would think that would improve the
performance.  If smaller components could do the same job that would also
improve your output per cubic meter of engine.  If these things were
improved you could probably also increase the fuel flow while still
increasing the heat per unit, etc.  Result, an improved HEPlaR drive with a
smaller minimum size.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:48:03 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Jumpgates, take 1

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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When the subject of jump gates was first introduced on the TML, I =
assumed the participants in the discussion meant something using =
conventional TL9+ technology.  Before I explain how I thought it would =
work, perhaps I should tell you how I see jump working in general.  =
Which seems to vary from that envisioned by some here.

I see the ship opening a tunnel through jump space by electrospacial =
distortion and pumping a stream of LHyd down it to line the passage and =
create a tunnel of real space through the jump space.  This is what is =
referred to as the jump bubble.  Because of the speeds that must be =
possible in jump space, I don't see any problems with this explanation.  =
Perhaps an illustration would help me to explain.

fig. 0   a
fig. 1   a >=3D=3D=3D
fig. 2        =3D@=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
fig. 3         --------=3D=3D=3D@=3D=3D=3D
fig. 4                  ----------=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D@=3D
fig. 5                         -------------=3D=3D=3D< a
fig. 6                                   ----------    a

In figure 0 we see the ship sitting in normal space charging for the =
jump.  In figure 1 we see the jump tunnel opening.  Figures 2-4 show the =
ship's progress down the jump tunnel.  In figure 5 we see it exiting the =
jump tunnel c. 1 week after entry.  Finally in figure 6 we see the ship =
sitting in normal space after the jump tunnel has collapsed.  You will =
note the trailing gas.  I included it because I speculate that even when =
the tunnel collapses, it might take a day or two for all of the hydrogen =
gas to escape through the micro hole in time/space.  This should =
indicate that with proper instruments, the hole would be detectable for =
that period of time if you knew where to look.  Otherwise, no matter how =
good your instruments were, it would be like looking for a needle in a =
haystack.

Ok, so much for my jump theory.  I figured that a large ship or a =
station could open the tunnel through jump space and the ship or ships =
would enter and travel the week using a maintenance type jump drive or =
even a normal one.  The only fuel that need be carried by the ship or =
ships would be what would fill the *surge tank* which is described as =
being part of the jump drive.  In the final analysis, my notion of a =
jump gate would not be much different in practice that drop tanks, =
except that the jump gate staff would have fuel ready at all times.

I see the jump gate being located above the plane of the stellar system =
and able to point in any direction according to the needs of the =
clients.  It requires no exotic technology and could be built using =
conventional methods and rules.

There you have it.  Jumpgates, take one.


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>When the subject of =
jump gates was=20
first introduced on the TML, I assumed the participants in the =
discussion meant=20
something using conventional TL9+ technology.&nbsp; Before I explain how =
I=20
thought it would work, perhaps I should tell you how I see jump working =
in=20
general.&nbsp; Which seems to vary from that envisioned by some=20
here.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I see the ship opening a tunnel through jump space by =
electrospacial=20
distortion and pumping a stream of LHyd down it to line the passage and =
create a=20
tunnel of real space through the jump space.&nbsp; This is what is =
referred to=20
as the jump bubble.&nbsp; Because of the speeds that must be possible in =
jump=20
space, I don't see any problems with this explanation.&nbsp; Perhaps an=20
illustration would help me to explain.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>fig. 0&nbsp;&nbsp; a</DIV>
<DIV>fig. 1&nbsp;&nbsp; a<FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>=20
&gt;=3D=3D=3D</FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D3>
<DIV>fig. 2</FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D3>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=3D@=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT size=3D3></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>fig. 3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- --------=3D=3D=3D@=3D=3D=3D</FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D3></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>fig.=20
4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- ----------=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D@=3D</FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D3></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>fig.=20
5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

- -------------=3D=3D=3D&lt; a</DIV>
<DIV>fig.=20
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
- ----------&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In figure 0 we see the ship sitting in normal space charging for =
the=20
jump.&nbsp; In figure 1 we see the jump tunnel opening.&nbsp; Figures =
2-4 show=20
the ship's progress down the jump tunnel.&nbsp; In figure 5 we see it =
exiting=20
the jump tunnel c. 1 week after entry.&nbsp; Finally in figure 6 we see =
the ship=20
sitting in normal space after the jump tunnel has collapsed.&nbsp; You =
will note=20
the trailing gas.&nbsp; I included it because I speculate that even when =
the=20
tunnel collapses, it might take a day or two for all of the hydrogen gas =
to=20
escape through the micro hole in time/space.&nbsp; This should indicate =
that=20
with proper instruments, the hole would be detectable for that period of =
time if=20
you knew where to look.&nbsp; Otherwise, no matter how good your =
instruments=20
were, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ok, so much for my jump theory.&nbsp; I figured that a large ship =
or a=20
station could open the tunnel</FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2><FONT=20
size=3D3> through jump space and the ship or ships would enter and =
travel the week=20
using a maintenance type jump drive or even a normal one.&nbsp; The only =
fuel=20
that need be carried by the ship or ships would be what would fill the =
*surge=20
tank* which is described as being part of the jump drive.&nbsp; In the =
final=20
analysis, my notion of a jump gate would not be much different in =
practice that=20
drop tanks, except that the jump gate staff would have fuel ready at all =

times.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>I see the jump gate =
being located=20
above the plane of the stellar system and able to point in any direction =

according to the needs of the clients.&nbsp; It requires no exotic =
technology=20
and could be built using conventional methods and =
rules.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>There you have it.&nbsp; Jumpgates, take one.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_00D9_01BD3505.24041D80--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #123
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Traveller-digest      Monday, February 9 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 125



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ringworld idea
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid
Re: 4th FW (long)
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Warships
Re: The jumpdrive debate
Re: Warships (esort carriers)
Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: The jumpdrive debate
Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba	ttle Riders)
Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: OT: Ringworld idea
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE
Re: IFF it worked that way... 
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)
Re: Military Chaplans?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:56:38 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Ringworld idea

Jo wrote:


>Yo Folks,
>     Although not exactly Traveller related, I had this idea I thought
>people on the List might be interested in.

I don't know about that, I've had a ringworld in the last couple of
Traveller campaigns I've run.

>     I was playing around raytracing a ringworld the other day. The
>classical Niven-esque ringworld has a large ring, with an inner ring of
>"shadow squares" designed to give the semblence of night and day to the
>surface of the world. In such a world, though, the diurnal period will be
>the same everywhere and thus the climate will depend only on the elevation
>of the surface.
>     So I thought, what if the "shadow squares" were not square? Instead
>imagine a inner band with oval portions cut out of it. This would mean that
>"day" lasted longer in the center of the ring than on the edge. Thus you
>would have a broad band of climates across the surface of the ring more
>like a terrestrial world.

So, you're going to have a solid band with windows rather that the more
Niven-esque blocks and strings arangement.  So far so good.

>     Does this make sense or am I missing something obvious.

That depends on a number of things which I can't answer from your narrative
or picture.  Here are some temperature projections based on circular windows
that allow a circle of light 50% wider than the belt.  The bands are at
%ages from the center.  These are averages based on an overall average
similar to earth's.

BAND  deg. C    deg. F
  -50    -11.042   12.125
  -45      -2.869    26.836
  -40       4.239    39.631
  -35     10.364    50.654
  -30     15.566    60.019
  -25     19.896    67.813
  -20     23.392    74.105
  -15     26.082    78.948
  -10     27.990    82.381
    -5     29.128    84.431
     0     29.507    85.112
     5     29.128    84.431
   10     27.990    82.381
   15     26.082    78.948
   20     23.392    74.105
   25     19.896    67.813
   30     15.566    60.019
   35     10.364    50.654
   40       4.239    39.631
   45      -2.869    26.836
   50    -11.042    12.125
AVG:   15.000    59.000

You will note that the central bands are hottest and the closer to the
center the less the temperature variation.  This will be true no matter what
the eccentricity of the oval is.  If you used oval (rather than square)
blocks you would have the same effect but the temperatures would be highest
on the outside and lowest in the center.  Perhaps you should consider using
trapezoidal blocks or windows which would give you a more uniform variation.

It's just a thought.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:24:59 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid

>Ask the Blackhawks that got blown down by a couple of F-15's a couple of
>years ago over in the sandbox.

If I remember correctly the IFF transponders were turned off during
maintenance and nobody remembered to turn them back on.

>Unlike most professions, aviation (and arms in general) brook no
>failure, and the consequense of such a minor "mistake" is not losing a
>character.
>
>It is death.

If it results in death, its never a minor mistake.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:41:29 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: 4th FW (long)

Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com> wrote:

> THE FOURTH FRONTIER WAR (1082-1084)
[...]
>         Emperor Strephon had delegated war powers to Norris, Duke of
> Regina. This brought a speedy end to a conflict that otherwise could have
> been hampered by long delays in communications between Capital and the
> front.

Must be "our" Norris's dad.  At that point, the Norris of the 5FW should
be about twenty years old, and a very junior officer in the Imperial Navy.
(This to fit with some other statements about his having to give up his
career as a commander in naval intelligence with the death of his older
brother in the years after the war.)

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:40:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

The TML is archived at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/

They're in plan text versions of the digests for about a year back and in
(IIRC) either unix .Z or gnuzip .gz format there after way, way back.
(Unless they lost 'em in the great disk crashes, the archives go back to
the 80's, and the founding of the list.)

Now if a cd version becomes available, even in pot (plain old text)form,
I'll buy it in a heartbeat. Or less.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> What will be valuable are the "design" patterns you feed into the
> >> system so it knows *how* to build something. A Star Trek replicator
> >> isn't much good without a databsase of stuff to replicate. :-)
> >> 
> >> Dig through the archives. I went into this at *great* length a year or
> >> two back.
> >
> > What are "achives", where are they accessed, and how can I search for
> > your dissertations specifically?
> 
> I don't know where the list is currently being archived. 
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:09:06 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re: Warships

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

[much snippage]

>Looks Ok to me, except I'd say an Escort Carrier is more of a function than
>a class, it would generally be a Light Carrier on Escort duty.

I disagree with this statement. Escort carriers serve a very important roll
in my eyes. They have the capabilities of an escort to protect their
carrier, and yet can also service a supporting fighter group. If the main
carrier suffers damage to her fighter bays, the escorts can help pick up
the slack.

Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:52:30 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The jumpdrive debate

>
>Pirates!  He said pirates!  Flame him!

Oh come on!  The Pirates should have won the NL Central last year!  
They're just a small market team with a low salary!  (Kinda like free 
traders competing (trying to) with a Megacorp)!

Greg

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:52:02 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Warships (esort carriers)

why not build a corvette that carries a single squadron of six fighters. it
would have the fighters adn some support for them as well...  very cheap to
build and whould tie up much of your naval assets in the long run while still
supplying a fighter escort for that company that donated all that money in
support of your policies...

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:06:41 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products

At 09:15 AM 2/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi All,

>For fans in the US, the low cost of each book (about $7-8) means that it's
>not very efficient to mail order it from us (air mail costs a lot!). We are
>investigating the possibility of 'proper' distribution in the US, but this
>process has been held up because of a lack of contact currently with IG
>(California). Of course, it may be possible for some US FLGS's to order
>direct from Esdevium or Hobby Games in the UK. If anyone has any contacts
>in the business, please get in touch.

Would be easier if I ordered all of them at once, to be mailed in bulk?

>Incidentally, having been out for a while, has everyone heard that SJG
>WON'T be going to the US GenCon this year, due to the increased booth
>prices charged by WotC? I wonder what IG's thoughts are (i.e. can they
>afford a booth at all?). What will happen to the UK GenCon? Anyone got any
>information on this? [Apologies if it has already been discussed.]

From what I've read, SJG, Palladium, Dream Pod 9, and several other middle
sized and larger companies have decided GenCon is no longer worth the
expense.  SJ says the rate for booths is ridiculous, and the owner of DP9
made the excellent point that the same people come to GenCon every year,
making it difficult to expand their fan base.

SJG is going to WorldCon in Baltimore, and many people are pointing to
DragonCon in Atlanta as the next big game con.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:23:33 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas
Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com


>
>>>despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I 
>>>would never hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted 
>>>Monty Python just before the shot.
>
>>The Army worries me a lot.
>
>Worry more, I picked up that habit from the Marine Sniper School.

But you must remember that according to the late Department of the Army 
official, we Marines are not connected to society, are extremists, and a 
little dangerous!!!!!

Greg

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:19:48 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The jumpdrive debate

SD Mooney wrote:

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> >Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:25:18 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >>This thread (IMO) is getting alnost as bad as the one on Pirates a few
> >>months ago.
> >
> >Pirates!  He said pirates!  Flame him!
>
> Uh Oh! Run for the Hundred Diameter Limit at full speed!
>
> Dom
>
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
> "Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
>    "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost"

 Running will do no good.  It was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that even if
the SDB in orbit around the planet is not prepared to give chase, there are
enough of them for one to be waiting for you at whatever jomp point you will
have chosen.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:30:35 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products

> SJG is going to WorldCon in Baltimore, and many people are pointing to
> DragonCon in Atlanta as the next big game con.
> --
> 

When is Dragoncon?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:30:20 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba	ttle Riders)

Dead Eye wrote:


>> What do you do when you ARE the good guys, and you fail authentication?
>> Shoot back?  Or do you just... [drum roll, please]:
>>
>> "I dunno, just fly casual..."
>
>Ask the Blackhawks that got blown down by a couple of F-15's a couple of
>years ago over in the sandbox.
>
>Unlike most professions, aviation (and arms in general) brook no
>failure, and the consequense of such a minor "mistake" is not losing a
>character.
>
>It is death.

And thus, once again, we see that modern technology is not infallible.
OTOH, imagine how many friendlies it has saved from accidental fratricide.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:19:14 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

Peter Newman wrote:

>If jumpspace is two dimensional and "ship passing through jump space
>could not reach stars above and below the galactic plane." why is it
>that in Traveller there are several examples of cultures who travelled a
>long distance at sublight speeds through normal space but still ended up
>in the Imperium (such as the sublight earth ships that colonized the
>islands)?

I reject your notion that jump space is 2D and contend that the flat maps
are merely a 2D representation of the 3D situation.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:59:54 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> > What are "achives", where are they accessed, and how can I search for
> > your dissertations specifically?
> 
> I don't know where the list is currently being archived. 
> 
> -- 


Ahh, well so much for searching the archives then..:)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:20:37 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Ringworld idea

> Yo Folks,
>      Although not exactly Traveller related, I had this idea I thought
> people on the List might be interested in.
>      I was playing around raytracing a ringworld the other day. The
> classical Niven-esque ringworld has a large ring, with an inner ring of
> "shadow squares" designed to give the semblence of night and day to the
> surface of the world. In such a world, though, the diurnal period will be
> the same everywher


Actually that IS traveller orientated.  either book 1, 2 or 3 mentioned
Ringworlds as 'canon' places for adventures.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:30:55 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> I don't think they understand J-Man.  You want the mines to wait until the
> enemy vessels are within X diameters before they activate.  Right?  So that
> instead of jumping away from or into the fleet, they will just explode doing
> horrible damage to the enemy.  Right?
> 
> 


Actually, close.  But instead of explode, I wanted them to all
"mis-jump" creating an unstable jumpfield so that parts of the enemy
fleet just go into jump at random.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:44:30 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

>
>>Didn't jump capability progress though?  I thought jump-1 was the
>>initial thing that was found.  However, the Terrans developed J-3 as
>>compared to the J-2 of the Vilani.  How did we develop that?  What
>>were the steps taken to go from J-3 to J-4 and so on?  How long did
>>it take?
>>
>
>Yes but those advances are engineering advances. Look at the 
>differeance between a TL 9 J-1 and a TL 15 ditto. Not much 
>improvement there.
>
>/Anders Backman

Yes, between a TL 9 J-1 and a TL 15 J-1 there is not a lot of 
improvement, apparently.  However, the step from J-4 to J-5 for instance 
is a huge leap (for mankind or any race for that matter).  How is that 
just an engineering advance?  Explain that to me please, cause I don't 
understand your reasoning.

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:34:59 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE

> > Pocket Empires (T4)
> >         - FINE\VERY FINE - J-man $20
> > 
> > Emperor's Arsenal (T4)
> >         - MINT - J-man $20
> 
> Funny, isnt this the retail price? Why would someone bid that high for
> a used book? Geez, some people continue to amaze me.....
> 


1.  I didn't know what the retail price was
2.  They aren't available where I live at all, retail or not.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:20:00 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way... 

Richard A. Flores wrote: 

>Dead Eye wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>Unlike most professions, aviation (and arms in general) brook no
>>failure, and the consequense of such a minor "mistake" is not losing 
>>a character.
>>
>>It is death.
>
>And thus, once again, we see that modern technology is not >infallible.  
OTOH, imagine how many friendlies it has saved from >accidental 
fratricide.

Dead Eye,

Do you still train pilots on recognizing silhouettes? (sp)  How 'bout 
the air defense artillery guys?

I remember my dad telling stories of his youth when they used to make 
models of the WWII aircraft painted black for use by the flight students 
in training so that they could recognize what type of aircraft they were 
looking at.  They made all kinds from enemy airforces as well as the 
U.S. and allied forces.  

IFF in those days was what it looked like.  You pretty much knew that a 
P51D (Mustang) was not an enemy!  And I'm sure that the other side did 
the same thing.  We have systems in place now because of the ranges and 
capabilities of our weapons systems.  As you stretch the ranges out even 
further, it becomes more critical to have a positive ID.

Greg
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:13:59 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> In Traveller there are no nanofabs as far as I can tell from the sources.
> If there were Drexler style nanos in Traveller the societys would be VASTLY
> different from that depicted in Traveller. Read Poul Andersons "The boat of
> a million years" to see what can happen to societies when they get nano
> tech. Personally I don't think nano tech will ever be available for
> scietific reasons. Drexler et al are computer scientists with no real
> knowledge of molecules etc. If atoms where lego parts then it would be
> possible but they're more like snowflakes in a snowstorm.


I've read "Boat of a million years" in fact, just within the past few
months.  I'll have to re-read again.  As to what you say about nano-tech
not being viable, apparently a great many scientists believe otherwise. 
I've been researching this on the web and turned up quite a few research
sites on this subject.  The current conscensus is that this technology
IS going to change things, and drastically.

I'd also have to disagree with your "atoms are more like a snowflake in
a snowstorm" allusion.  Atoms ARE building blocks, otherwise how else do
you explain 'matter'?

Anyway, thanks for the reply.  I'm getting info from the various web
sites on this, but none of them can give me the 'imaginative' forecasts
that I need, which is why I posed the question here.  In fact, I would
accept such speculation that 'holding to Traveller canon' would not
allow.

Another good point made earlier in this discussion, leads me to believe
that not more then 1000 years of future history can be surmised without
a 'long night' breaking the time up or the society and technology will
be so advanced as to be incomprehensible to us and in terms of role
playing.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:31:18 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation

At 04:18 PM 2/7/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Dave Golden wrote:
>>Merely "duplicating" a
>>signature is doomed to fail.
>
>Ok, I didn't do any analysis of the signature.  I just cut and pasted.  But
>the analysis could be done and a signature could be attached that would fool
>the PGP.  I don't care enough to do the analysis and would have no use for
>the results.  I like staying on the legal side of things these days.

I would be a bit surprised if you could, assuming Dave is using a decent
key.  PGP is fairly secure, as it is related to the NP-complete problem of
factoring arbitrary large numbers.  If you have a means of cracking PGP
signatures in real time, then a lot of governments want to talk to you.
Now if you want to run an rc5 contest in your spare time, you probably
could crack one message fairly easily, but it would take you a while.

Consider - Word Y0018 comes on ten terabytes of disk.  Go ahead and use a
ten gig key, which would not be cracked anytime soon, and which a TL9
computer would not be able to decrypt fast in months, but a TL12 one can
undo in seconds.

In my games, most combat is actually between software, such that if you
have a substantial tech advantage, you can do good things like spoof IFF,
futs with EW, and have all sorts of fun.  As soon as there is tech parity,
you have to fight the old fashioned way, which is why the Imperium is so
concerned about TL11 and 12 planets.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:45:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Anders Backman wrote:
> Drexler et al are computer scientists with no real
> knowledge of molecules etc. If atoms where lego parts then it would be
> possible but they're more like snowflakes in a snowstorm.

Hmmmm...I seem to remember a rather striking picture of nickel atoms
spelling out "I B M" a year or two back....rather stable snowstorm, that.
;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)

In-Reply-To: <34DDFB16.71C1@edgenet.net>

Daniel,

> IMPERIAL ANTHEM  (The "Voice of Sylea") - Please note this is "Under
> Construction"
>  
> (The Call to the Races)  

Wasn't that a Marx Brothers film? :-)

> One race
> Issue of Terra 

Better check when the Solomani Hypothesis was accepted. In fact, if 
it's still a controversial issue, might be a good idea to avoid the 
subject. Otherwise, good.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:26:55 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid

> If I remember correctly the IFF transponders were turned off during
> maintenance and nobody remembered to turn them back on.
> 
I think they stopped somewhere for awhile and didn't turn them back on.
Amazing as it is our branches of the service are almost separate
militaries and just don't talk to each other very well.  (They were
USArmy helos tapped by USAF F-15's)

> If it results in death, its never a minor mistake.


By definition.  Flying is like driving a car with an accelrator that
won't let you slow down below 60mph, on a road with a canyon on both
sides and no shoulder.  No room for goofs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 18:03 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

In-Reply-To: <34DDD4DA.46D7@ebicom.net>

> > I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
> > Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
> > Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?
>  
> Yes.  Better have the correct days codes though, or you will wind up
> with the correct box but squawking yestredays code.  This shows up as a
> "negative" interrogation, meaning the fighter marks you as
>  
> "Kill me, please"
>  
> How to get the correct codes?  Seeing as the can change very fast and
> multiple times(ie what was good 1 hour ago ain't good anymore,) fat
> chance.

How about for ships out on patrol? They're going to need to know *in 
advance* what the codes are going to be, otherwise the system defence forces 
are going to blow the **** out of them when they jump back in-system. Same 
situation if two patrolling ships meet. It's going to have to be something 
the computer can generate. Capture an enemy ship intact, without anybody 
knowing (tricky, admittedly), and you've got the codes.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:58:39 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Music (was: Soliciting for Freelance Traveller)

could some one repost the entire song please...  i missed that post...

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:23:56 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

At 01:37 AM 2/9/98 GMT, you wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:10:35 iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada) Wrote...
>
>> Also, military characters may be created as chaplains.

>    ::CLICK::  Hey, where ARE the military Chaplins in Traveller?  I mean
come on I seriously doubt every last living sentient in the Traveller
Universe is an Athiest. ;) And Militaries are notorious for
supporting/providing Religious support and justification for the actions
they take.

Depends.  IMTU, the closest thing to an Imperial religion is a faith that
worships stars as sentient, powerful beings.  So chaplains would probably
be drawn from a moderate branch of that religion.  Then of course, you have
minority religions, which can cause headaches.

I question your comment about the military justifying their actions on a
religious basis.  At least in the US Army, we did what we did because we
had volunteered, and were subject to orders.  American troops have
fine-tuned BS detectors, and appeals to a higher moral level will send the
needle of the scale.

>    Now I'm not suggesting that we create pan-Imperium religions but I don't
>think the various Militaries of the Imperium would ignore them either. 

BITS/CORE is currently compiling "101 Religions."

>They're just too useful as regards the "intangables" that motivate and
drive >soldiers.

Funny, I was never motivated by religious feelings...  Take for example a
Virasian Chaplain addressing Marines  "Well men, good luck, and remember if
you die here, so far from Dlan, your souls will roast in hell.  Amen."

I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.  When I did
Basic, we had to attend chapel our first week.  There we received a lecture
about religious and spiritual services avalible to the trainees.  (There
was also the tackiest painting I ever saw:  Jesus striding forward holding
a banner that read "Follow Me", the motto of the Infantry!)  After that,
Sunday services were optional.  By week four, there were only three guys
from my platoon of 40 who were still going, the rest of us prefering to
read the one newspaer a week we were allowed, or catch up on uniform
maitenece.

>So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle them?

The same way that soldiers do.  Ignore them.

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #125
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 9 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 124



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Artwork Opinions Needed
Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE
Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE
Re: chair dogs
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Questions
Ordering Infini-V
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: What accents do you use...
Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: [T98#115] GURPS Traveller
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #122
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #122
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: NASA Launches from Kennedy
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: chair dogs
Re: chair dogs
Re: Null development in key areas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:25:41 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Artwork Opinions Needed

Niko Wieleba wrote:

> Dan Smith is going to be illustrating part (if not all) of the GURPS
> Traveller book and has asked what style artwork says "Traveller".  He's
> excited about the project and looking forward to helping produce a
> product that will please as many people as possible -- especially the die
> hard Traveller fans.
In my eyes, the old DGP-Traveller pics in the Alien books, the Digest
and other publications were the best art ever made for Traveller. A syle
like this would definitively garner my firm approval! The MT art wasn t
bad either, tho!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:28:29 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE

Tsykoduk wrote:
> 
> Peter,
> 
> Welcome to my killfile.
> 
> Cya
Spoke it, and quoted the entire rubbish once more, so we could see it
again :-(

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:27:25 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: AUCTION: TRAVELLER CT\MT\TNE\T4 materials FINAL UPDATE

Peter Miller wrote:

> Pocket Empires (T4)
>         - FINE\VERY FINE - J-man $20
> 
> Emperor's Arsenal (T4)
>         - MINT - J-man $20

Funny, isnt this the retail price? Why would someone bid that high for
a used book? Geez, some people continue to amaze me.....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:32:41 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

J-Man wrote:

> > > Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel played
> > > it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie make
> > > more sense.

> Well, send me an 8 hour tape and I'll see what I can do..:)
That probably would result in an NTSC-Tape, wouldn t it? 
Damn, why can t the world have a unified tv signal?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:49:25 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

James Lindsay wrote:

> Actually, it makes me quite sick to my stomach.  The way it reads to me is
> that *IG* is "Free Trader Beowulf" and Steve Jackson Games is going to
> "rescue" Traveller-- all hail SJG!  Bah!
I see us, the players otf Traveller or Traveller itself as the Beowulf,
SJG as the rescue and IG as the pirates.... ;-)
> 
> And as Phillip McGregor pointed out in another post, GURPS Traveller is
> (almost without a doubt) the future of Traveller.  Again-- Bah!
Why Bah?Just use what you can use, and leave the rest. Nobody forces you
to use the rules....


> make them switch over.  Why switch to a clunky, rule saturated system like
> GURPS when they are already happily using a house-modified version of MT,
> TNE, or T4.x?
> 
> How many of us can *HONESTLY* say that we will adopt the GURPS rules system
> just to play in a non-canon SJG universe where much of what GDW and IG have
> published is considered "non-canon"?  Especially when it means invalidating
> the usefulness of many current and out-of-print Traveller supplements.
Well, most of what IG has produced is non-canon anyways (just look at FS
and other Abominations!). As a ules system, GT won t be used by the
,majority on this list, but that isn t the point: GT will be
sourcebooks to us! For thiose Gurps-Players interested in Traveller, the
rules will be a boon, but we don t have to change... we ll just use
the source materials, the world discriptions, the adventures!

> 
> IMHO, the only ones that will gain from the release of GURPS Traveller is
> SJG.
And us :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:07:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

In mail you write:

> I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of the enemy.
> Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an enemy's
> Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?

How's he going to *get* it? *Because* they can be mis-used that way,
they'll be gaurded better than most weapons!

Also, having the transpnder is of little use. After all, you have to
fifure that one of more of your ships will get captured *eventually*.
And replacing all the transponders if that happened would be *way* too
much trouble and expense.

You not only have to have the right transponder, you have to have the
list of codes to program into it for the current time period. They'll
change *daily*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:52:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Questions

In mail you write:

> 3. Why is it no one has invented a nice particle/energy screen to diminish
> laser fire?

Because it is very, very hard?

> 5. And could someone pleease tell me what the heck "canon" is!?! I see it
> all the time and no one says what it is. It would simplify the matter of
> understanding.

It's the "generally accepted works". So for Traveller, it's the
background that can be deduced from the official published material. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:08:29 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Ordering Infini-V

First off, apologies to everyone for a week's silence.  My email system
got thoroughly pooched, which is what was required to convince our
administration that the email system used by the workers should have the
same backups that the system used by the administration should have.  (Do
I sound bitter?  Nah, why should I be bitter?)

The upshot of this is that any email sent me in the past week has probably
vanished, as well as any email I sent since last Saturday.  Here is a
brief recap of my messages:

Kenji, I got your cheque.  Thanks.  I'm printing nice colour labels today,
and plan on posting your disk on the way home.  I will confirm by email
when the disk is actually in the mail.

I'm able to cash US cheques (although the service charges are
non-trivial).  Revised prices for Infini-V are $25 Canadian or $30
American (to cover the cost of cashing a cheque drawn on a foreign bank). 
This gets you a disk with the latest software and free emails of any
updates.  If UK pounds are easier for you contact Dom Mooney.

Fred and Andrew, no cheques yet (as of Friday mail delivery).

I've delivered a compiler to my PC programmer, and hope to have a Windows
version of Infini-V available by the end of the month.


And to those who are keeping score, still nothing from IG.  I've disputed
the charges with VISA, and reserved copies at a games shop in Ottawa. 
Even when the charges are reversed, IG will still owe me a book for my
JTAS subscription, but I suspect I'll have to write that off as as loss to
incompetence (or sleeze, whichever).  Bloo, if you want to start a
nuisance lawsuit for practice, I'll sign up.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:46:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

In mail you write:

>> What will be valuable are the "design" patterns you feed into the
>> system so it knows *how* to build something. A Star Trek replicator
>> isn't much good without a databsase of stuff to replicate. :-)
>> 
>> Dig through the archives. I went into this at *great* length a year or
>> two back.
>
> What are "achives", where are they accessed, and how can I search for
> your dissertations specifically?

I don't know where the list is currently being archived. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:15:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

In mail you write:

> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> When Yamamoto was informed that no carriers were destroyed at Pearl, he
>> commented "We have lost the war."
>
> Yamamoto knew from the outset that "winning the war" was a matter
> of defeating the American's will to fight.  A victory at Pearl would
> have bought Japan 3 or 4 years to consolidate the WestPac holdings
> and gain control of the shipping lanes out to the second island chain.
>
> The failure to destroy the Carriers was a significant setback indeed. 

Yamamoto wasn't real thrilled when he was informed that the Washington
Embassy hadn't delivered the declaration of war until *after* the
attack, either.

If they hadn't messed up in being overly restrictive in their
instructions on how the embassy was to handle the message, they'd have
delivered delivered the declaration of war at least 30 minutes before
the attack. And in that case, while the US would have still been plenty
angry, most of the sense of sheer *outrage* would have been gone.

As it was the declaration was a couple of hours *late* because the best
typists allowed to work on it could only do about 10 words a minute in
English. 

Referrees should keep this lesson in mind if their players ever try to
set something up where timing is critical, but so is secrecy. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, Niko Wieleba wrote:

> How far in the past are we talking here?  I came in "late" on the 
> Traveller phenomenon -- I bought the BBHB and a couple of alien modules 
> when they first came out but did not start playing until a few years ago. 
>  I never experienced the first releases and have been gathering the past 
> publications wherever I can.
> 
So look at me. I bought a german version of the Traveller Book in 1991,
when I began my studies in Chemistry. I had seen the Book years before
at a games warehouse, but never new what it was until I learned about a
Roleplaying Games Shop near the University. And even then it took me
another five years to start my first campaigns in Roleplaying ever.
So who is _late_?

And I believe we shout await the GURPS:Traveller line as it is a problem
of IG (IMHO) that they stand alone with their Traveller products.
It was GDW that started with Traveller, but it's not been them alone to
make it that popular, as there has been much support of DGP, Seeker and
many other Publishers, as bad as they may have been.
Remember what happened, when TNE Traveller came out: DGP didn't want to
switch that soon to a new line and cancelled their MT line. No other TNE
material than from GDW has been published. They had their backs to the
wall - a situation thats remarkable similar to IG.
But now, with GURPS backing Traveller by bringing it to their fandom
should help both, IG and Traveller fans to get this RPG back on popularity
outside the Traveller fandom.

I hope that the GURPS line will change this in Germany, as I see here not
much of the new material - I have to personally order it in the shops,
else it won't come. There's one store which sells stacks of supplements
with a price of $ = DM. But they are catching dust there under the
shelves. Another shop has put the T4 Books under their GURPS line on the
floor - I think they know what they are waiting for.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:01:05 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: What accents do you use...

On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

> > ObTrav:  How much dialect do you, as GMs and players, use to
> >differentiate races/ethnicities
> Well, regional accents form a very large part of internation in modern
> Dublin (where we have at least 12 in the city alone), so we use them quite
> a bit in the game.
> I actually use Chinese, not Russian, for my Zhodani.

What about Arabic? This would fit more to the look of these people,
although their language would show no resemblance to any from earth.

> Sword Wolders do quite well with South African accents.

Sword Worlders language is described as sort of icelandic in canon.
You'd better make this Danish or Swedish if you don't speak Icelandic ...
Or try a German Accent? As Afrikaans comes from a hollandish dialect,
(don't know if this is called flemic in english) the language would be
similar.
Sometimes people from Germany and the Netherlands can converse without
translator. But the accent shows the differences.

> For Darrians I use a broad American accent.
> For Vilani, particularly bureaucrats, I use a more whiny American accent.
> Nobles of all races use a British accent.
> Local indigents of all worlds have localised accents. I tend to mix and
> match between various inner city Dublin accents for them.

Playing Traveller in German Language clearly changes this little. You've
got also a broad variety of dialects in this land, one being specific to
the city of Cologne I come from. But I hate it. There are not much
dialects I like. So I tend more to accents of other languages.

The use of a language or dialect for alien characters is not new to me.
Short ago the DM of the AD&D campaign I'm playing in came to me and
suggested the use of some 'elven' words or curses, As I didn't get the
Silmarillion yet, I thought about taking them from an existing language.
My favourite would have been french, but the DM doesn't like it and it
does not fit that well as everyone would know which language it is. So now
my Elf is speaking a kind of Connacht-Gaelic when he's very upset ... 

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 06:59:42 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Annic Nova Jump Drive: SPOILERS

>>From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>

>>If memory serves me the power was stored in a power accumulator made 
>>up of several silver bars connected to a power transfer cable to/ 
>>through the ceiling right under the astrogation dome.

>You are correct.  Your memory serves you well (I had to look it up). 
>The storage device seems to be 'several solid silver buss bars'.  >They 
are, however, located under the canopy created by the solar >collectors 
and not under the astrogation dome.

So maybe Warren Buffet is hoarding silver so that Berkshire Hathaway can 
create high-energy storage devices and sell them to...  ???

The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:26:21 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

>I was wondering how life would be in the 24th century.  Let's say, for
>the sake of arguement, that by then, personal nano-factories are
>commonplace.  How would this affect world economics?  How would
>terrorism be held in check?  Would nanobots be programmed against
>fabricating dangerous weapons for sick individuals?
>
>Also, would money fade as a source of wealth, to be replaced by
>resources in this new baroque period?  Seeing how anyone could
>'fabricate' what they want, the only things worth fighting over would be
>the resources to feed their nanofactories.
>
>What do you all think?

In Traveller there are no nanofabs as far as I can tell from the sources.
If there were Drexler style nanos in Traveller the societys would be VASTLY
different from that depicted in Traveller. Read Poul Andersons "The boat of
a million years" to see what can happen to societies when they get nano
tech. Personally I don't think nano tech will ever be available for
scietific reasons. Drexler et al are computer scientists with no real
knowledge of molecules etc. If atoms where lego parts then it would be
possible but they're more like snowflakes in a snowstorm.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:27:09 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: [T98#115] GURPS Traveller

Volker wrote:

>Hmm, why do I feel that WE are the Free Trader Beowulf, and SJG is the
>help that s on it s way?
>Why, that would make IG.....

... Grendel.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:35:01 -0600
From: "John D. Muncy" <jmuncy@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #122

: Re: 3rd TNE Novel
> 
> On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:09:12 -0600 "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
> writes:
> 
> >I liked the 1st 2 TNE novels 
> 
> What are the titles and author(s) of the first two books?
> 
> 
> Vic
"The Death of Wisdom" and "To Dream of Chaos", both by Paul Brunette.
the third book was "going" to be titled, "The Backwards Mask". IIRC, Paul
Brunette was going to do that one, as well.

I thought that the novels needed some stronger characterization to them. 
However, it was (IMHO) apparent that Paul's writing ability was deffinitely
improving,
with the story line and the characterization. I felt that after a few more
novels,
Paul's novels would have been top notch-which would have been a nice
addition and 
marketing tool for Traveller, in general.

With some of the books' short falls, I still enjoyed the stories. It was
nice to see 
some of the Traveller "toys", concepts, aliens, etc in the context of a
story and
displayed as such for all to see; "oh is that what they meant by that!"

Best Regards,
John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:35:01 -0600
From: "John D. Muncy" <jmuncy@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #122

: Re: 3rd TNE Novel
> 
> On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:09:12 -0600 "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
> writes:
> 
> >I liked the 1st 2 TNE novels 
> 
> What are the titles and author(s) of the first two books?
> 
> 
> Vic
"The Death of Wisdom" and "To Dream of Chaos", both by Paul Brunette.
the third book was "going" to be titled, "The Backwards Mask". IIRC, Paul
Brunette was going to do that one, as well.

I thought that the novels needed some stronger characterization to them. 
However, it was (IMHO) apparent that Paul's writing ability was deffinitely
improving,
with the story line and the characterization. I felt that after a few more
novels,
Paul's novels would have been top notch-which would have been a nice
addition and 
marketing tool for Traveller, in general.

With some of the books' short falls, I still enjoyed the stories. It was
nice to see 
some of the Traveller "toys", concepts, aliens, etc in the context of a
story and
displayed as such for all to see; "oh is that what they meant by that!"

Best Regards,
John

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 18:48:38 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Hello Folks,
  Just figured I would mention this to you all...

  Some time back, my wife and I were driving in the car to Rochester New
York (home of Crazy Egor).  We got onto the topic of Traveller.  What
prompted the discussion was that Steve Jackson games would be doing a GURPS
TRAVELLER.  My wife knows that I used to LOVE playing CT, and she knows of
my collection of CT, MT, TNE, and T4.  She later wondered why I would be so
happy about GURPS TRAVELLER, aside from the fact that I am a GURPS GM, and
would play the TRAVELLER UNIVERSE for the fun of it?
  This was before the problems that IG had, but I pointed out to her, that
it would benefit IG to link up with GURPS in supporting Traveller because
it would likely create a market for each company's products in the
Traveller universe.  By that point in time though, I had come to dislike
T4's dice system, and felt that it would not be worth my while to attempt
to switch to the game system (after we as a group tried it for some
time...).  However, I have since picked up Mileu Zero Hardcover, FF&S (for
one lousy equation no less - Bussard Ramscoop creation rules!), and
finally, Pocket Empires.  I fully intend to use these in a GURPS TRAVELLER
setting...

  Already, the cross fertilization concept has borne fruit for IG.  I feel
badly for a few of you who were disappointed with currently events - for I
would love to see Traveller continue.  I fervently hope that T4.1 makes it
off the starting blocks, and that things improve for the Traveller community.

     Hal

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:22:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

>If jumpspace is two dimensional and "ship passing through jump space
>could not reach stars above and below the galactic plane." why is it
>that in Traveller there are several examples of cultures who travelled a
>long distance at sublight speeds through normal space but still ended up
>in the Imperium (such as the sublight earth ships that colonized the
>islands) ?
>
>Are they just the ones who stayed in the plane of jump space ?

The ones that targetted out of the galactic plane where never heard from
because soon after establishing a colony they discovered jumpdrives and
after that they could'n afford to go sublight. Nah, I'm kidding, we would
be able to talk with lasers between systems above or below the plane so
there should be ample reason for visiting them esp. early on. It is better
to argue that jump distances are 2D due to j-space topology etc but I
personally don't like that either.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:38:21 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> You not only have to have the right transponder, you have to have the
> list of codes to program into it for the current time period. They'll
> change *daily*.
> 


Try up to every 30 minutes.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:04:39 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: NASA Launches from Kennedy

Dom wrote:


>Is there a public record of when launches are planned on the net? I've a
>friend going to Florida in Mid March who's interested...

Check with NASA.  http://www.osf.hq.nasa.gov/shuttle/futsts.html
The schedule is at the bottom of the page and runs to about 2003.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:26:19 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)

> What do you do when you ARE the good guys, and you fail authentication?
> Shoot back?  Or do you just... [drum roll, please]:
> 
> "I dunno, just fly casual..."
> 

Ask the Blackhawks that got blown down by a couple of F-15's a couple of
years ago over in the sandbox.

Unlike most professions, aviation (and arms in general) brook no
failure, and the consequense of such a minor "mistake" is not losing a
character.

It is death.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:22:17 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

>Didn't jump capability progress though?  I thought that jump-1 was the
>initial thing that was found.  However, the Terrans developed J-3 as
>compared to the J-2 of the Vilani.  How did we develop that?  What were
>the steps taken to go from J-3 to J-4 and so on?  How long did it take?
>
>Who is currently spending Cr 'Billions and Billions' to come up with
>J-7?
>
>Greg

Yes but those advances are engineering advances. Look at the differeance
between a TL 9 J-1 and a TL 15 ditto. Not much improvement there.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:27:06 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

V.A.G. wrote:


>J-Man wrote:
>
>> > > Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi Channel
played
>> > > it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the whole movie
make
>> > > more sense.
>
>> Well, send me an 8 hour tape and I'll see what I can do..:)
>That probably would result in an NTSC-Tape, wouldn t it?
>Damn, why can t the world have a unified tv signal?

We'll probably get that about the same time we all start using the same
emailing programs on the same make of computers.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:55:04 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: chair dogs

>> Soon after the Dune movie was done but I'm shure that was just a
>>coincidence ;)
>>
>
>
>I'd have died too, after I saw how they killed his story.

Curiously Ridley (Blade Runner & Alien I) Scott was working on a Dune
version prior to Alien but it was stopped because Herbert felt they strayed
too much from the original story (hints at an incestous relation between
Paul and his mother which doesnt seem too far out to me). When Dune was
actually made (by David Lynch, notive how they tend to forget that one when
listing all his movies in intervies) I bet (my guess only) Herbert was
already terminal in cancer and wanted a movie to be made no matter what and
thus the sad result. Lynch was quoted during shooting of actually never
having read the books but having them "...explained to him..." by someone.
Ooops entirely off subject, here's a slight remedy.
Those genetically engineered humans for adaption to desert environment
mentioned in DGP stuff, has anybody used them in campaigns?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:22:16 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

>If you go with the idea that j-space is an artificial construct built by
>the ancients, it brings up a couple of questions.  Since the Ancients were
>more than capable of building world-size jump portals, what did they need
>the lower levels of jump space for?  One concept is the Net, the idea that
>jumpspace is actually an FTL communications system for telepaths.  As I've
>posted previously, humans using the Net tend to die in any one of a number
>of horrible ways, or go insane quickly.  This leads to the question, how do
>telepaths react to jump?  IMTU, telepaths *always* get jump sick, the more
>powerful, the worse it gets.  Teep's tend to travel in low berths to shut
>out the "noise" of j-space.

Nono, the Ancients didn't build the jumspace, the progenitors did
(according to my brand of heresy). When Yaskoydroy finally realised that he
was disturbing some galactic sized engineering project (the ancients used
j-space A LOT) he killed off his children, hid inside a pocket universe and
now and then came out to sprinkle tech and j-drive knowledge to all "major"
races, all to put the blame for disturbing jumpdrive on them.
Was Y the ULTIMATE chicken or was there really a reason for hime being so
afraid that he practically quit from the universe in fear of the
progenitors revenge...?

<snip>
>jumpspace is actually an FTL communications system for telepaths.  As I've
>posted previously, humans using the Net tend to die in any one of a number
>of horrible ways, or go insane quickly.  This leads to the question, how do
>telepaths react to jump?  IMTU, telepaths *always* get jump sick, the more
>powerful, the worse it gets.  Teep's tend to travel in low berths to shut
>out the "noise" of j-space.

Great idea about Telepathic problems with jumpspace. Maybe the jumpspace
corridor from the galactic core through known spave and out towards the rim
is just a BIG serious bandwidth telepathic backbone for the progenitors and
that tose pesky sophonts jumping about in their laughable ships give the
progenitors a migraine or something and now they're back to kick
interstellar ass with jumpo-inhibitors, antimatter bombs and von Neuman
robotic ships. Neat. I'll use it (probably).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #124
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 9 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 126



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Communist Writings in Sayat (was Re: GURPS Traveller)
Re: What accents do you use...
Jump Space
Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)
Pern is Traveller
Re: 4th FW (long)
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba	ttle Riders)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Null development in key areas
O-Con '98
Re: Jump Space
Chamax and the Shriekers
Wasp Class Fighter
Modular Memory
Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:04:18 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Communist Writings in Sayat (was Re: GURPS Traveller)

Peter Newman wrote:

>kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)wrote
>
>> I'm STILL waiting for someone with just a TAD of gumption to translate the
>> original Free Trader Beowulf transmission into Vilani.
>> Myself, I'm too busy trying to put _Das Kapital_ into Sayat.  Maybe I'll
>> start with something easier, like something from _Macho Sluts_.
>
>I thought it was the people in Macho Sluts who were easy, not the work
>itself.

Exactly!  Introducing "easy" characters leads to _hardness_.

Whereas with the Vilani, formality and stiffness leads to ease of
translation.  You can just plunge in and have your way with it.
Linguistically speaking.

>Why don't you try some shorter (of course _everything_ else is shorter
>than Das Kapital with the possible exception of Rememberance of Things
>Past) piece of communist writing or song such as The Communist Manifesto
>or possibly The Internationale ?

The Manifesto is, yes, on my short list.  "The spectre of Sayatism haunts
Known Space..."  "...all that is superdense boils into plasma..."  Because
it's so much more politically oriented, though, it's hard to translate in
any "realistic" way into 50th ct. C.E. Sayat.

Of course, judicious and creative translation of, say, Mayakovsky would
permit me to COMBINE the broad thematic contents of _Macho Sluts_ and _The
Communist Manifesto_...

And I'd never have thought of this without the mediation of Traveller.
Probably.

Proust is _still_ waiting to be retranslated into his original Vilani.
We'll show those warty-faced Klingon wankers a thing or two.  O yes.


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:04:14 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: What accents do you use...

Lars Adler wrote:

>On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
[snip]
>> I actually use Chinese, not Russian, for my Zhodani.
>
>What about Arabic? This would fit more to the look of these people,
>although their language would show no resemblance to any from earth.

"Essentialist" explanation of Zhodani aside, I actually picture Zdetl as
having a Slavic-like phonology (with a dash of Lushootseed or Kwakwala)
with an Eskimo and/or Salishan-like morphology and syntax.  So it would
_sound_ vaguely Russian.  With lateralization taking the characteristic
place of palatalization in Russian, maybe.

>> Sword Wolders do quite well with South African accents.
>
>Sword Worlders language is described as sort of icelandic in canon.
>You'd better make this Danish or Swedish if you don't speak Icelandic ...
>Or try a German Accent? As Afrikaans comes from a hollandish dialect,
>(don't know if this is called flemic in english) the language would be
>similar.

I agree; some sort of Scandinavian accent works better for me, for the
Sword Worlders.  I'd save the Afrikaaner accent for all those
groat-ranchering planets elsewhere in the 'Marches.


>Playing Traveller in German Language clearly changes this little. You've
>got also a broad variety of dialects in this land, one being specific to
>the city of Cologne I come from. But I hate it. There are not much
>dialects I like. So I tend more to accents of other languages.

I, for one, would like to hear more about what accents you've used in
Traveller games to represent different national/ethnic groups.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:39:04 -0600 (CST)
From: searles@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Jump Space

A ship with a J-1 drive takes one week to jump a sector.  Does a ship with a 
J-2 drive take half a week or still one week to a sector?


Cygnus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:42:03 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

> I reject your notion that jump space is 2D and contend that the flat maps
> are merely a 2D representation of the 3D situation.


Very possible, but then you really cannot overlay the Imperial jump map
on realspace at all.

------------------------------

Date: 09 Feb 1998 11:28 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Pern is Traveller

Gentle Travellers,

I was explaining parts of Traveller to my new wife (who knew I had
a Traveller fetish, but only recently has started asking questions
about it (how come all of a sudden I feel like a member of a cult,
bent on converting all to my point of view?)), when we realized that
_Dragonriders of Pern_ has nothing in it that is non-Traveller 
compatible.  There is sublight drive, a lost colony, bioengineering
and telepathy psionics.  It could be purebred Traveller!

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:28:16 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 4th FW (long)

> Must be "our" Norris's dad.  At that point, the Norris of the 5FW should
> be about twenty years old, and a very junior officer in the Imperial Navy.
> (This to fit with some other statements about his having to give up his
> career as a commander in naval intelligence with the death of his older
> brother in the years after the war.)
> 
>   -- Steve Bonneville

Have your guys run across him as a know nothing butterbar.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:39:33 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba	ttle Riders)

> And thus, once again, we see that modern technology is not infallible.
> OTOH, imagine how many friendlies it has saved from accidental fratricide.


Yeah, very good point and one that is almost always overlooked.  I got
locked up several times over in the Gulf, usually by 16's and 18's off
of the boats. 

Wonder where I would have been if my IFF hadn't been working?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:36:05 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Dom Mooney wrote:

>Definitely IYNSHO.
>And I always thought that MT had quite a serious, somewhat more believeable
>plotline behind it.

Is there a storyline in there?  You mean the Rebellion and Hard Times?  Or the
DGP camper through known space?  Bah... I scoff at MTs plotline (whatever it
is)...  : )  
::::::::::::::::donning asbestos loincloth and
headband:::::::::::::::::::::::::

Seriously... I like it.  I makes great background.  : )  I wouldn't want to
generate and Collapse all these sectors.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:04:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Greg wrote;
> >>>despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I 
> >>>would never hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted 
> >>>Monty Python just before the shot.
> >
> >>The Army worries me a lot.
> >
> >Worry more, I picked up that habit from the Marine Sniper School.
> 
> But you must remember that according to the late Department of the Army 
> official, we Marines are not connected to society, are extremists, and a 
> little dangerous!!!!!


Sounds about right to me!

:-)

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Mac, Will Travel
former member of 692nd Signal Co, USAR

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:02:29 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: O-Con '98

Speaking of providing some exposure for Traveller...

There's a little game convention in Oneonta, NY (about halfway between Albany
and Binghamton on Interstate 88, a good four hours Northwest of NYC). We could
use a good Traveller event. I'm the email contact for the convention, we also
have a web page with some info on it at
http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/ocon1.htm

The convention runs from March 13 to 15, anyone who would be interested in
running an event please contact me.

Walt Smith
- ------------------------------------------------------
"Warp factor one billion???" - Opus the Penguin

If someone sees a winmail.dat attachment on this message, please let me know at smithw@hartwick.edu. Thank you.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:24:30 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Space

searles@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> A ship with a J-1 drive takes one week to jump a sector.  Does a ship with a
> J-2 drive take half a week or still one week to a sector?
>
> Cygnus

 The standard, canon Jump field takes a week to form and collapse, regardless of
the distance travelled.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: 09 Feb 1998 11:48 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Chamax and the Shriekers

Gentle Traveller Referees,

Double Adventure 5: The Chamax Plague concerns the planet of
a possibly extinct race of intelligent spacefaring crustaceans.
Their planet, Chamax, just spinward of Uniqua and Garoo of the
Darrian subsector, has been overrun by a pestilence, but some
of their sublight ships may contain the vestiges of civilization
in cold sleep.

Adventure 10: Safari Ship, concerns the search for a beautiful
animal, and may lead to the discovery of another intelligent
race, which never reached above TL3 or so.  This race is well
described, with tables for character generation et al.

My design is to make these two species the same.

My handwave: Chamax is the homeworld.  The sapients there have
long been civilized and peaceful, with a low birth rate.  They
are crustacean, with cilia or tiny, soft spines that is somewhat
like fur.

How did they get to the Safari world, 10 parsecs away?  This is
4000 years by their conventional drive, and requires them to
have TL 9 (sans jump) at least 50,000 years ago.

1. A group of them were transported ten parsecs by the Ancients,
   to the second world visited in Safari Ship.

   Con: this is a cop-out.

2. One of them once had psionic ability such that it could teleport
   a breeding population there.

   Con: this sounds unreasonable.

3. They colonised several worlds in aeons past, before calamity
   disrupted their technological base.

   Con: they are hardy stock.  Why aren't there more colonies?

4. The Ancients connected jumpgates to both worlds (long since
   destroyed).

   Con: I hate relying on jumpgates for explanations.

5. ?

3 and 4 requires that they had technology.  Perhaps the Ancients
left technology there that was helpful enough to boost their TL
up at an early age.

If these critters can be player characters, then they cannot be
frail at all.  Indeed, the stats for them are:

Str: 3D	 Dex: 2D  End: 3D  Int: 2D  Edu: 1D

...they are strong and hardy, so a colony would not fail easily.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:46:06 -0500 
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: Wasp Class Fighter

Ian Whitchurch asked me to develop a fighter design for him using FF&S2.
The following is the result of that effort. All three versions were
designed using Andrew Akin's FFS2 Spreadsheet version 2.0 (Thank you
very much for your excellent work Andrew).


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Sylea/Core:

Svenson Small Craft LIC, the manufacturers of the FL12S/L, currently
the standard Light Fighter of the Third Imperium, proudly announces
the release of the Wasp class of fighters. They are called Wasps
because of the sting from powerful laser weapons they carry. The
unique dome design allows the Wasp to take a minimum of surface
area on the mother ship's hull when carried externally.

Each Wasp features a powerful laser weapon and operates at a fast 5G
performance. The hull is streamlined to allow operations within
planetary atmospheres.

Originally designed for a private shipping company as protection
from pirates and intended to be carried on their frontier freighters.
The original specifications called for a 10 dton fighter, with a 250Mj
laser, 5G performance and carry a crew of two for a week.

When it was determined that the original specification could not be
met the following three models were produced, each meeting part
of the original requirements.

The first model, the FM12DL, is the smallest fighter that would
satisfy all of the other requirements (5G, 250 Mj laser and two man
crew operating for a week comfortably). Originally built with a
bunk, the bunk has been removed and replaced with missile tubes.
Forcing the crew to sleep in their G tanks.

The second model, the FM12DL2, is the smallest fighter that would
carry the 250 Mj laser and operate at 5G.

The third model, the FL12DS, is a 10 dton fighter with the largest
laser that could be mounted in it (200 Mj) and still operate at 5G.

The Imperial Navy has ordered a small number of each model for
evaluation. Large orders of all three models are anticipated which
will substantially reduce the prices in the future.

Svenson Small Craft LIC is a fully owned subsidiary of Karelia
Industries Ltd. 


FM12DL, Wasp class Medium Fighter (Patrol) (FF&S v2)
Designed by Greg Svenson, Svenson Small Craft LIC
				
Statistics				
Tons: 15std ( SL Dome Hypersonic )	Crew: 1/2
Cargo: 0std (0/0)			Volume: 210m3
Passengers High/Med: 0/0		Cost: 24.927MCr
Mass (L/C): 264t/261t		Passengers Low: 0
Maintenance Points: 46		Dimensions: 4.5m x 8.9m x 8.9m
Troops/Science: 0/0		Tech Level: 12
Size: 7				Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)

Electronics				
Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 2xFltComp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0).
          1xFibComp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0). Terrain following sensors
          (TF:480, NOE:160). No bridge.
Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km, 0.00MW).
Sensors: 1xLIDAR (14 [200kkm], 0.20MW).
Survey/Science:
ECM:
Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-1.0 (-1.0 at 33MW, -1 at 5MW), Act:-0.5,
         Neu:-2, Grav:0			

Weaponry
1x250Mj Fixed Laser (+0) 1/1-0-0-0 [1,20/40-20-10-5] (LR)
3xMissile Tubes Can 1/0 (/Mag:1)
 w/2 Independent DetLaser 1d6/1 [36] 16.67G/2 500,000km

Performance
		0	Jump
		4.9/5	Maneuver (/Thruster:35MW)
		0.0/0.0	Contra-grav 
4,692kph/4,704kph	Atmosphere (/Crus:3,519kph/3,528kph)
		6	Power (/Fus+:46.57MW,168.0)
		0.0	Fuel
	0/0/0/0/0	Accommodations 
		4	Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Ex /'st)
		3	G-Comp (/G Tanks:0,2)
		0	ESA
		0	sandcasters
		0	Damper Turrets
		0	Damper Screen 
		0	Meson Screen 
		0	Force Field
		0	Gravtics
		0 [20]	Armor
		3	Structure

Features
1xAirlock
1xShip's locker(0.01std)
1xStorage(0.23std)

Backups
Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm]).
				
Crew Details
1xMnvr. 1xGunn.

This is as close as I could come to the base requirements, except
for size. It includes a fresher and microwave for long duration
missions. The 3 missile tubes are built for 0.3std ton missiles.
Installing 2 missile tubes with standard 0.5std ton missiles in
place of the 3 small tubes and the storage does not substantially
impact the price or performance.


FM12DL2, Wasp class Medium Fighter (strike) (FF&S v2)
Designed by Greg Svenson, Svenson Small Craft LIC

Statistics
Tons: 13std ( SL Dome Hypersonic )	Crew: 1/2
Cargo: 0std (0/0)			Volume: 182m3
Passengers High/Med: 0/0		Cost: 22.459MCr
Mass (L/C): 246t/244t		Passengers Low: 0
Maintenance Points: 43		Dimensions: 4.3m x 8.5m x 8.5m
Troops/Science: 0/0		Tech Level: 12
Size: 7				Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)

Electronics
Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 2xFltComp (CM:0.45 CP:2.22).
1xFibComp 
          (CM:0.6 CP:1.67). Terrain following sensors (TF:480, NOE:160).
          No bridge.
Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km, 0.00MW).
Sensors: 1xLIDAR (14 [200kkm], 0.20MW).
Survey/Science:
ECM:
Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-1.0 (-1.0 at 30MW, -1 at 4MW), Act:-0.5,
         Neu:-2, Grav:0

Weaponry
1x250Mj Fixed Laser (+0) 1/1-0-0-0 [1,20/40-20-10-5] (LR)

Performance
		0	Jump
		5/5	Maneuver (/Thruster:30MW)
		0.0/0.0	Contra-grav
4,691kph/4,703kph	Atmosphere (/Crus:3,518kph/3,527kph)
		7	Power (/Fus+:44.33MW,168.0)
		0.0	Fuel
	0/0/0/0/0	Accommodations
		4	Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Gd /'st)
		3	G-Comp (/G Tanks:0,2)
		0	ESA
		0	sandcasters
		0	Damper Turrets
		0	Damper Screen 
		0	Meson Screen 
		0	Force Field
		0	Gravtics
		0 [20]	Armor
		3	Structure

Features
1xAirlock
1xShip's locker(0.01std ea.)

Backups
Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm]).

Crew Details
1xMnvr. 1xGunn.

The fresher has been dropped along with the missiles.


FL12DS Wasp class Light Fighter (export model) (FF&S v2)
Designed by Greg Svenson, Svenson Small Craft LIC

Statistics
Tons: 10std ( SL Dome Hypersonic )	Crew: 1/1
Cargo: 0std (0/0)			Volume: 140m3
Passengers H/M: 0/0		Cost: 19.079MCr
Mass (L/C): 199t/197t		Passengers Low: 0
Maintenance Points: 35		Dimensions: 3.9m x 7.8m x 7.8m
Troops/Science: 0/0		Tech Level:12
Size: 7				Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)

Electronics
Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 2xFltComp (CM:0.5 CP:2.0). 1xFibComp

          (CM:0.5 CP:2.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:480, NOE:160).
          No bridge.
Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km, 0.00MW).
Sensors: 1xLIDAR (14 [200kkm], 0.20MW).
Survey/Science:
ECM:
Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-1.0 (-1.0 at 25MW, -1.0 at 4MW), Act:-0.5,
         Neu:-2, Grav:-1

Weaponry
1x130Mj Fixed Laser (+0) 1/0-0-0-0 [1,20/35-18-9-5] (LR)

Performance
		0	Jump
		4.9/5	Maneuver (/Thruster:24MW)
		0.0/0.0	Contra-grav
4,691kph/4,704kph	Atmosphere (/Crus:3,418kph/3,528kph)
		5	Power (/Fus+:35.82MW,168.0)
		0.0	Fuel
	0/0/0/0/0	Accommodations 
		2	Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Nm)
		3	G-Comp (/GTanks:0,1)
		0	ESA
		0	Sandcasters
		0	Damper Turrets
		0	Damper Screen 
		0	Meson Screen 
		0	Force Field
		0	Gravtics
		0 [20]	Armor
		2	Structure

Features
1xAirlock
1xShip's locker(0.01std ea.)
				
Backups
Communications: 1xLaser (500,000km).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm]).

Crew Details
1xMnvr.

The pilot must operate the laser.

- ------------------------------------------

Greg Svenson
gsvenson@space.honeywell.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:51:34 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Modular Memory

Scientific Press Release from Interstellar Trade & Technology:

Research division #83 announces the introduction of a new 
technology!  The current working name for the technology is 
"Modular Memory."

Modular Memory is a method of engram storage that seems to 
work quite well for any creature with a brain.  Early tests on a 
variety of life forms seems to confirm that the only prerequisite 
for implementation is a brain or similar major nerve bundle.

The implementation starts with a deep neural scan to establish 
topography and neural pathways.  Our present modeling 
computers are then able to design a surgical schedule and 
procedure for implementation of stage 2.

Implementation stage 2 involves the surgical emplacement of 
neurochemical/neuroelectrical links to the memory transfer 
facility.

External memory storage can record the memories as they 
happen.

Plugs of diverse memory can be added after initial surgery.

Initially recollection of added memory takes concentration on 
surgical procedure, then following the memory down the new 
path.

Eventual integration of new memories takes place in the 
normal manner.

Side effects:  bizarre dreams during integration process.  
Divergence from normal seems to follow a bell curve the height 
and width of which varies by the individual and the length of the 
memory plug.

Eventual goals:  Integration into various mechanical systems.  
Perfect memory for clones of self.  Travel experience w/o 
travelling.  Etc.
________________________________________________

(for more information, see R&D report/access #: 83923).

All PR personnel must read and evaluate the above press 
release.  Please send pertinent comments via normal routing.  
Of particular interest to staff writers are potential uses.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:18:26 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products

At 12:30 PM 2/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> SJG is going to WorldCon in Baltimore, and many people are pointing to
>> DragonCon in Atlanta as the next big game con.
>> --
>> 
>
>When is Dragoncon?

Labor Day weekend.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:26:21 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 01:36 PM 2/9/98 EST, you wrote:
>Dom Mooney wrote:
>
>>Definitely IYNSHO.
>>And I always thought that MT had quite a serious, somewhat more believeable
>>plotline behind it.

<flame attempt deleted>

>Seriously... I like it.  I makes great background.  : )  I wouldn't want to
>generate and Collapse all these sectors.

My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or you
are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most MT
campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.

On the other hand, the aftermath of wars makes a great enviroment.  I'm
sketching out ideas for the Arbellatra Regency.  Since I love Conspiracy
theories, I'm playing with the idea that a true heir is found (the
great-great-granddaughter of Martin V), and factions either try to put the
girl on the throne, where she can be easily manipulated, hustle her off the
scenen so that Arbellatra can eventual take the crown, or kill her outright.

Add in trials of war criminals, and everone scrambling for power in the
post-bellum vaccuum....
- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Strategy is the art of making use of time  |
|  and space.  I am less concerned about the  |
|  latter than the former.  Space we can      |
|  recover, lost time never."                 |
|         -Napoleon Bonaparte, French soldier |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:17:43 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 06:03 PM 2/9/98 GMT0, you wrote:

>How about for ships out on patrol? They're going to need to know *in 
>advance* what the codes are going to be, otherwise the system defence forces 
>are going to blow the **** out of them when they jump back in-system. Same 
>situation if two patrolling ships meet. It's going to have to be something 
>the computer can generate. Capture an enemy ship intact, without anybody 
>knowing (tricky, admittedly), and you've got the codes.

Andrew, ever read about SIOP for handleing nuclear launch codes?  IFF codes
will be handled much the same way.  Stored in a safe with a quick self
destruct code, two officers required to retrieve the days code,  code
entered manualy with the computer making sure that the person entering the
codes is cooresponds with how is supposed to be there.

If all else fails, Arrival Vengence mentioned the existence of Q codes
(IIRC); a set of one-time code pads that identify a ship as Imperial to any
friendly ship or installation.  At the very least, you'd get looked over
before they opened fire.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #126
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 9 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 127



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
IFF (Was: Fighters vs Battleships
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Jump Space
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Pocket Empires
Andrew Akin's FFS2 Spreadsheet version 2.0 
Re: Fifth Frontier Wars Algorithms for Squadron Development
Starship Economics
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Imperial Anthem
Re: Warships (esort carriers)
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: Jump Space
Chamax and the Shriekers
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)
Re: Chamax and the Shriekers
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders)
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Jump Mines
Re: OT: Ringworld idea
Re: Warships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:19:37 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 12:30 PM 2/9/98 -0800, you wrote:

>Actually, close.  But instead of explode, I wanted them to all
>"mis-jump" creating an unstable jumpfield so that parts of the enemy
>fleet just go into jump at random.

Ouch.  Alas, according to canon, since the jumpfield doesn't get more than
a meter or two away from the object, it wouldn't really work.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:25:53 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: IFF (Was: Fighters vs Battleships

Andrew Boulton wrote:

How about for ships out on patrol? They're going to need to know *in 
advance* what the codes are going to be, otherwise the system defence forces 
are going to blow the **** out of them when they jump back in-system. Same 
situation if two patrolling ships meet. It's going to have to be something 
the computer can generate. Capture an enemy ship intact, without anybody 
knowing (tricky, admittedly), and you've got the codes.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Traveller New Era explained working IFF boxes by saying that each one was a dedicated Artificial Intelligence. When two ships got in range of each other, the boxes would "talk" to each other - not by some pre-arranged sequence of codes, but as two acquiantances would. for example:

AX7119: Hi, I'm the Imperial Battlecruiser _Jade Solstice_
KH4546: Hi AX7119, what you been up to?
AX7119: A little patrol, a little showing the flag, you know...

And so on for eternal milliseconds of small talk. Eventually, your transponder would in some fuzzy-logic way decide if the other transponder was telling the truth - after a conversation so fast and esoteric that only another transponder AI could follow it. It appeared from the write-up that your transponder would give you probabilities - "Approaching ship is 97% probable Fleet Tender _Tir Aggasham_" - and the Captain would have to decide whether to believe the transponder or not.

These intelligent transponders were made and sold by the 3rd Imperium to whomever wanted to buy them - and if you wanted to trade in Imperial space, you had to buy one. They would set it for the ship you bought it for, and it wouldn't work on another ship - if you tried to move it, the other boxes would know.

How did these IFF boxes know each other? Well it seems they were all "descendents" of the same AI computer, so had a lot of personality quirks and instincts that were similar - enough so that a forged or altered IFF box would communicate differently during the "small talk" mentioned above and be identified as wrong.

Where did the Imperium get this technology? Well it seems they found it - on a vacuum plain on Cymbeline. A species of naturally occurring intelligent "computer" chips, a natural silicon-based intelligence that could be bred in captivity - bred and introduced into transponder boxes.

The chips that would, during the Rebellion, be the ancestors of Virus.


Walt Smith
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

In-Reply-To: <34DF14DD.24F4@ebicom.net>

> > You not only have to have the right transponder, you have to have the
> > list of codes to program into it for the current time period. They'll
> > change *daily*.
>  
> Try up to every 30 minutes.

[See also my other post]
How will you get the new codes to the people who need them?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:32:57 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Space

At 01:39 PM 2/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>A ship with a J-1 drive takes one week to jump a sector.  Does a ship with a 
>J-2 drive take half a week or still one week to a sector?

Well, first a minor correction of terms.  A sector is a area about 32
parsecs by 40 parsecs.  A jump-1 covers 1 parsec in one week.  Higher jump
numbers do not cut down on transit time.  All jumps, regardless of distance
or engine rating take between 144-185 hours (centering on 168 hours.)
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:27:11 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

>> I don't think they understand J-Man.  You want the mines to wait until
the
>> enemy vessels are within X diameters before they activate.  Right?  So that
>> instead of jumping away from or into the fleet, they will just explode doing
>> horrible damage to the enemy.  Right?
>
>Actually, close.  But instead of explode, I wanted them to all
>"mis-jump" creating an unstable jumpfield so that parts of the enemy
>fleet just go into jump at random.

Hmm, I guess they did understand.  It wouldn't work.  :-(

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:35:21 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Pocket Empires

I was wondering if someone could tell me about "Pocket Empires". I'm
developing an area of 15 planets. Jump technology is limited to Jump 2. The
only way to get away from these planets is with a Jump 2 ship with enough
fuel to make several Jump 2 jumps. Would "Pocket Empires" help me? What is
in this product?

- -Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:53:06 -0600 (CST)
From: searles@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Andrew Akin's FFS2 Spreadsheet version 2.0 

Can somebody tell me where to get Andrew Akin's FFS2 Spreadsheet version 2.0?


Thanks,

Cygnus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:52:53 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier Wars Algorithms for Squadron Development

It seems to me that "Imperial Squadrons" documents just such an algorithm.   It
is a pity (in my view) that SDB's can't be built like Battle Riders (with
statistics like other squadrons), but i can always add that option for my own
campaign.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:43:04 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Starship Economics

Hi, All...

Could someone give me some pointers to where I can find info on the
costs of starship operations?  How much to pay the crew, what fuel
costs, what's the expenses for carrying a High Passage passenger, etc. 
This is for an MT scenario, I have no access (or interest) in TNE or T4. 
Thanks...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 22:53 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Moin Lars Adler,

> So who is _late_?

	I should perhaps add than as long I know only CT was translated,
	for MT and TNE only german erratas came from FanPro. So you are
	one of the last who played the grandfarther & merchant stories.

> It was GDW that started with Traveller, but it's not been them alone to
> make it that popular, as there has been much support of DGP, Seeker and
> many other Publishers, as bad as they may have been.

	I GURPS would back the traveller line (either by playing before
	1116 or not changing history) G:T would increase synergy of both
	lines. But the current planed publication is contraproducive imho.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:03:53 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Anthem

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Daniel Ray Lane writes:
> >IMPERIAL ANTHEM  (The "Voice of Sylea") - Please note this is "Under
> >Construction"
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >One race
> >Issue of Terra
> 
> What's the date of composition? If it is for early Milieu 0, then the
> Solomani Hypothesis haven't even been proposed yet. It dosen't get
> finally verified (although it does gain widespread acceptance) before
> the 6th Century.
> 
> >Long live the honor
> >of the black sun
> 
> Yellow sun until 200something, no official color after that.
> 
> 

Hi Hans!

I guess it was after I-200 then...and the Solomani were still
propagandizing at the birth of Cleon's Imperium.  But I guess it 
does show strong Solomani influences. Thanks for the very salient
points!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 23:12 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Warships (esort carriers)

Moin Richard,

> why not build a corvette that carries a single squadron of six fighters. it
                  ^^^^^^^^
> would have the fighters adn some support for them as well...  very cheap to
> build and whould tie up much of your naval assets in the long run while still
> supplying a fighter escort for that company that donated all that money in
> support of your policies...

	S small ship comes in mind with 6 missile bays able to host a fighter
	when empty. So the missile bay could also used as a hangar. The ship
	would have about a dozen fire controls, 4 pd lasers, 4 sandcasters,
	moderate armor and good evasion. A Missile corvette able to pick up
	remaining fighters after battle. The problem is of course that the
	typical usage of a missile corvette is to jump out of battle after
	the missiles have been delivered. Corvettes are to light to stand
	in the line of battle for long.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:59:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

Greg Smith writes:

>>>The Army worries me a lot.
>>
>>Worry more, I picked up that habit from the Marine Sniper School.
>
>But you must remember that according to the late Department of the Army 
>official, we Marines are not connected to society, are extremists, and a 
>little dangerous!!!!!

   I now a good time to bring up my idea about how the Marines should be an
Army organization, in the same way that the 82nd Airborne and 101st Air
Assault divisions are?  :-)

   All you have to do is take one look in a Marine tactics manual and see
that to be a good Marine you must be an extremist and *very* dangerous.

   If I have one knock on the US Marines, it is their rather...interesting
behavior with regard to marching.  I recall riding my bicycle across a
portion of Ft. Bliss, TX one day while I was attending Officer Basic Course
and seeing two Marines, one calling cadence the other marching smartly down
the side of the road responding to the other Marine's command.  That's
right, drill and ceremony for a column of one!  I didn't know quite what to
make of that one....but I can tell you that an Army 2LT on a bicycle doesn't
rate a salute (as long as they were pretending to be a column, they could
have at least pretended I was an officer! <grumble>).

Regards,

Harold
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:56:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

Doug Berry wrote:

>I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.  When I did
>Basic, we had to attend chapel our first week.  There we received a lecture
>about religious and spiritual services avalible to the trainees.  (There
>was also the tackiest painting I ever saw:  Jesus striding forward holding
>a banner that read "Follow Me", the motto of the Infantry!)  After that,
>Sunday services were optional.  By week four, there were only three guys
>from my platoon of 40 who were still going, the rest of us prefering to
>read the one newspaer a week we were allowed, or catch up on uniform
>maitenece.

   Seeing what I have of the US Army, it makes sense to me.  
   After about 2 weeks in the USMC you BELIEVE in God.  You WILL believe in
something. Attendance is VERY high.  It's quite optional, of course.  There
was maybe one obstinate (out of a platoon of 83) who wanted to stay w/ the
DIs, alone, and he "saw the light" after about the 3rd week IIRC... : )  We
got ONE hour a week away from the Drill Instructors (the most sadistic men
it's been my fortune to meet).  Total.   For thirteen weeks.  That's it and
everyone was quite eager for that hour of peace and to pray for deliverance.
lol.  Yes indeed... you do find religion in the USMC.
    Our 'uniform maintnance' (ironing, sewing, etc) came during rack time
before or after firewatch.  Letter writing... sit down head calls... that all
came out of rack time.
    There were additional mandatory classes from the Chaplain on suicide,
"STDs and male Marine," and a couple others i can't recall at the moment.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:36:51 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Space

searles@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> A ship with a J-1 drive takes one week to jump a sector.  Does a ship with a
> J-2 drive take half a week or still one week to a sector?
>
> Cygnus

 Now, having said that the canon field takes a week to form and collapse, I
would like to add:

I am currently running a campaign where one of the players is in a
grossly-modified scout ship.  These PCs ran with a scientist NPC (Dr. Jones) who
was a Jump Space theorist.  It became necessary to get somewhere very quickly
(beat out a bunch of mutineers that stole a yatch) - so Dr. Jones went and
fiddled with the jump engines.  Result - a +1 to the misjump when running in the
new configuration, but you come out of jumpspace a day earlier.  (Dr. Jones said
he could shave off two days, but he wouldn't ride in the ship then...they
decided to pass).  The other, more serious side effect is that the computer can
no longer adequately run the jump cycle.  It requires constant (7x24)
supervision by the engineer (which my PC found out the hard way - fortunately,
he had a large supply of 'speeders' to keep him awake the first time he tried to
run in the new configuration _after_  Jones left the ship).

He is currently sweating his upcoming annual maintenance - both on how to keep
the new configuration and how to explain all the broken seals on the 'do not
open - Depot level maintenance only' inspection hatches on his J-Drive and
P-Plant.

douglas


- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:02:17 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Chamax and the Shriekers

Robert Eaglestone asked, while trying to justify making the Chamax aliens
the same as the sapients from Safari,
"Does anyone have any ideas?"

Oooh, good one!  Actually an answer is in front of you already.  We know
from Chamax Plague that the hapless Chamaxi had spacefaring capability (but
not Jump Drive), and were forced to build a fleet of sublight ships to flee
the bugs.  Who is to say that they did not attempt an earlier sublight
colony effort?  Or that one of the escaping colony vessels was of a
somewhat better design and was able to achive a greater % of C, and so got
them to the Safari world a few hundred years before the rest of the fleet
reached its targets.

In fact, the one good escape vessel might have been a colony vessel under
construction before the bug plague was discovered.  The Chamaxi had to cut
a lot of corners and go for wimpier drives for the rest of the escape
fleet, but they had one vessel that was larger and faster, and which
perhaps left a few years earlier.

And of course, somewhere on the Safari world there will be a big colony
ship (or its remains), or perhaps damaged bits and pieces of same in orbit.
Another clue.  Somebody really obnoxiuous might even put some bugs into the
mix...

Something to think about, anyway.  I loved the Chamax Plague:Horde double
adventure, and the PCs in my campaign actually became a sort of
Exterminator For Hire company, providing advice and technical (military)
assistance to several nearby worlds also infested with the Chamax.



Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:37:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)

 deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:

>> What do you do when you ARE the good guys, and you fail authentication?
>> Shoot back?  Or do you just... [drum roll, please]
>> "I dunno, just fly casual..."

>Ask the Blackhawks that got blown down by a couple of F-15's a couple of
>years ago over in the sandbox.

Or the British unit attached to the Warrior APC that got trashed by mistake
by the USAF.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:02:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Chamax and the Shriekers

Robert Egglestone wrote:
>Double Adventure 5: The Chamax Plague concerns the planet of

>Adventure 10: Safari Ship, concerns the search for a beautiful

>My design is to make these two species the same.

>[Question: how to arrange this]

Perhaps Darrian explorers planted a colony just before the Maghiz,
with the intent that they'd later come back and trade, but all
record (and support) was lost in the catastrophe.


Tony Z

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:14:27 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

One thing that occurs to me regarding IFF is that ships will have an
operations theater code for their transponders.  Ships out of theater will
have some sort of code to indicate where they belong.  Add in a time stamp
for the code, and anything querying the IFF will have some data to work
off of.  

Also?

  Each computer would require a password or code to be entered into the
IFF box before flight, and every 24 hours - or the IFF goes dead and
requires a manual boot up proceedure.  Basically, unless you have stolen
the codes, the IFF squawkbox will not last longer than 24 hours before
going dead.  A tamperproof lock can be installed in the thing such that if
it is tampered with, the computer destroys the resident memory.  Somehow,
I don't think IFF will be easily tampered with if you all remember that
man generally manages to figure ways round problems when he has a good
enough reason to do so.

    Hal

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:19:28 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

At 04:56 PM 2/9/98 EST, you wrote:

>   Seeing what I have of the US Army, it makes sense to me.  
>   After about 2 weeks in the USMC you BELIEVE in God.  You WILL believe in
>something. Attendance is VERY high.  It's quite optional, of course.  There
>was maybe one obstinate (out of a platoon of 83) who wanted to stay w/ the
>DIs, alone, and he "saw the light" after about the 3rd week IIRC... : )  We
>got ONE hour a week away from the Drill Instructors (the most sadistic men
>it's been my fortune to meet).  Total.   For thirteen weeks.  That's it and
>everyone was quite eager for that hour of peace and to pray for deliverance.
>lol.  Yes indeed... you do find religion in the USMC.

We had about three hours on Sunday.  You could do whatever you wanted that
didn't involve sleeping or leaving the barracks.  Writing home, reading the
Atlanta Constitution-Journal for the capsule review of last week's Niner
game, doing uniform maitenence were all very popular.  As was Drill
sergeant Giles' *volunteer* PT.  Drill sergeant Giles was a %&*%&$ MARATHON
RUNNER, who had competed in the LA Olympics!!!  He never got tired!  He was
a frigging Terminator!  Of course, the PT was completely voluntary..

>    Our 'uniform maintnance' (ironing, sewing, etc) came during rack time
>before or after firewatch.  Letter writing... sit down head calls... that
>all came out of rack time.

We gave up a great deal of sack time to get those "Suzy Q" jobs finished.

>    There were additional mandatory classes from the Chaplain on suicide,
>"STDs and male Marine," and a couple others i can't recall at the moment.  

We got our STD lecture from a very bored Medical Corps doc, who mumbled.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:15:39 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders)

At 01:39 PM 09/02/98 -0600, Deadeye wrote:
>> And thus, once again, we see that modern technology is not infallible.
>> OTOH, imagine how many friendlies it has saved from accidental fratricide.
>
>
>Yeah, very good point and one that is almost always overlooked.  I got
>locked up several times over in the Gulf, usually by 16's and 18's off
>of the boats. 
>
>Wonder where I would have been if my IFF hadn't been working?

Off topic, and purely out of idle curiosity - What were you flying?



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:35:10 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

At 09:23 AM 2/9/98 PST, you wrote:

>>>>despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I 
>>>>would never hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted 
>>>>Monty Python just before the shot.
>>
>>>The Army worries me a lot.
>>
>>Worry more, I picked up that habit from the Marine Sniper School.
>
>But you must remember that according to the late Department of the Army 
>official, we Marines are not connected to society, are extremists, and a 
>little dangerous!!!!!

You also march funny, and need the Navy to do everything but chew your food
for you.  :P
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
|-------------------------------------|
| "It is not the big armies that win  |
|  battles, it is the good ones"      |
|             -Maurice de Saxe        |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:15:55 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

J-Man wrote:

>I've read "Boat of a million years" in fact, just within the past few
>months.  I'll have to re-read again.  As to what you say about nano-tech
>not being viable, apparently a great many scientists believe otherwise.
>I've been researching this on the web and turned up quite a few research
>sites on this subject.  The current conscensus is that this technology
>IS going to change things, and drastically.

So we're FINALLY going to get our jet-cars?  Can I have mine in teal, with
gold pinstriping?

>Another good point made earlier in this discussion, leads me to believe
>that not more then 1000 years of future history can be surmised without
>a 'long night' breaking the time up or the society and technology will
>be so advanced as to be incomprehensible to us and in terms of role
>playing.

I couldn't agree more.  I mean, of course our predecessors around the year
998 C.E. failed to forsee the shape of even 500 years of their future, but
then they weren't as smart and practical as we are.  Our masturbatory
fantasies about _our_ next thousand years are, on the contrary, all going
to come true.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:02:38 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Jump Mines

Here's an idea for the "Jump Mines" we've been talking about:

A terrorist or corporate sabotage weapon: place a J-1 drive and some gas in a
100-ton shipping container. Set it to (mis)jump a few days after the incredibly
expensive multi-kiloton bulk cargo carrier enters jump space.

Easy to detect if the shipping line is looking for it, pretty expensive for a
bomb - but it won't look like a bomb unless their security people are expecting
it. It could even ship quite innocuosly as a Scout/Courier being delivered as
cargo.

What happens if a jump drive tries to open a jump bubble inside a stable jump
bubble? Does it fail, or does it destabilize the big jump bubble? I have a
feeling no one has ever come back to tell us what this does when you try it.

If you don't care whether or not your drive survives jump initiation, do you
need it to be in a 100 dton package? Could your shipping crate just have a jump
drive, short-term power plant and a small measure of fuel (allowing it to be
much smaller)?

Walt Smith
- ---------------------------------
"In space, no one can hear you violate canon..."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:37:20 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Ringworld idea

At 12:20 PM 2/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> Yo Folks,
>>      Although not exactly Traveller related, I had this idea I thought
>> people on the List might be interested in.
>>      I was playing around raytracing a ringworld the other day. The
>> classical Niven-esque ringworld has a large ring, with an inner ring of
>> "shadow squares" designed to give the semblence of night and day to the
>> surface of the world. In such a world, though, the diurnal period will be
>> the same everywher
>
>
>Actually that IS traveller orientated.  either book 1, 2 or 3 mentioned
>Ringworlds as 'canon' places for adventures.

The is a Ringworld in the Vargr Extents, left unfinished.  Evidently, which
ever kid/grandkid was working in the area had a thing for mega-projects, as
there is also a multi-world rosette out there in doggie space.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:57:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Warships

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 RSpake2064@aol.com wrote:

> why not build a corvette that carries a single squadron of six fighters. it
> would have the fighters adn some support for them as well...  very cheap to
> build and whould tie up much of your naval assets in the long run while still
> supplying a fighter escort for that company that donated all that money in
> support of your policies...

Excellent idea.  In CT / MT I built several versions of the Victory class,
a sub-1000dt ship with 10-15 small fighters.  Its official designation is
"patrol carrier", and it is often assigned specialized scouting units in
place of some of its dedicated attack craft.  The ship itself is a fully
armed and armored combatant, as well -- at least one version sports a
nuclear damper and particle accelerators.  At least half of the fighters
are primarily used to pick up contacts, which the mothership (bearing the
other half of the fighters) then moves to prosecute.  If the contact is
too large to handle, the mothership evades instead, picking up the other
fighters and sacrificing only the one, jumping or doing whatever else is
necessary to alert friendly forces to the larger threat. 

Such ships are mass-produced in significant numbers and used to insure
border integrity against small threats (corsairs, raiders).  In wartime
they are collected and used to supplement the capital escort and fighter
wings.  It's generally a quick and easy way to deploy fully supported
fighter squadrons to forward areas.  Standard tactics entail the fighters
attacking at point-blank range while the mothership supports them with
standoff weaponry (missiles or particle weapons).

A related concept is the SDB tender:  a 5000 dt or so vessel that is used
to redeploy SDB squadrons along the frontier to wherever they are most
needed.  In wartime, it doubles as a BRL tender.  I actually built one of
these with FF&S1 for use with Battle Rider.  It was not designed as a real
combatant, though.

Full size battle tenders can (in theory) be used the same way, but in
practice they would probably only be used to effect delivery of riders
intended for monitor duties into areas that lack the industry to produce
them, but which do have the money to *purchase* them.


Clark

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #127
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 9 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 128



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Chamax and the Shriekers
Re: What accents do you use...
Re: GURPS Traveller
John Woods, call the principals office...
Fiction anthologies etc.
Re: Null development in key areas
Arbatrella Regency (was: GURPS Traveller)
Re: Warships (esort carriers)
Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)
Re: Starship Economics
re: Atlantis Destoyer
Re:  questions
Laser Comms
Re: Jump Mines
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba	ttle Riders)
Re: Jump Space
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Drawing questions
Re: Questions
Re: chair dogs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:38:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chamax and the Shriekers

You could go for a Kafir-type explanation...they only develop intelligence
under adverse conditions. Something threatened their homeworld in the deep
past, and they rose (rather singlemindedly) to TL-9 in spaceflight to get
away, then lapsed back into low tl-hood when they got someplace nice.

After all...by some estimates TL-0 humans have to work something like a
hour or so a day to get the basics of life...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On 9 Feb 1998, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Gentle Traveller Referees,
> 
> Double Adventure 5: The Chamax Plague concerns the planet of
> a possibly extinct race of intelligent spacefaring crustaceans.
> Their planet, Chamax, just spinward of Uniqua and Garoo of the
> Darrian subsector, has been overrun by a pestilence, but some
> of their sublight ships may contain the vestiges of civilization
> in cold sleep.
> 
> Adventure 10: Safari Ship, concerns the search for a beautiful
> animal, and may lead to the discovery of another intelligent
> race, which never reached above TL3 or so.  This race is well
> described, with tables for character generation et al.
> 
> My design is to make these two species the same.
> 
> My handwave: Chamax is the homeworld.  The sapients there have
> long been civilized and peaceful, with a low birth rate.  They
> are crustacean, with cilia or tiny, soft spines that is somewhat
> like fur.
> 
> How did they get to the Safari world, 10 parsecs away?  This is
> 4000 years by their conventional drive, and requires them to
> have TL 9 (sans jump) at least 50,000 years ago.
> 
> 1. A group of them were transported ten parsecs by the Ancients,
>    to the second world visited in Safari Ship.
> 
>    Con: this is a cop-out.
> 
> 2. One of them once had psionic ability such that it could teleport
>    a breeding population there.
> 
>    Con: this sounds unreasonable.
> 
> 3. They colonised several worlds in aeons past, before calamity
>    disrupted their technological base.
> 
>    Con: they are hardy stock.  Why aren't there more colonies?
> 
> 4. The Ancients connected jumpgates to both worlds (long since
>    destroyed).
> 
>    Con: I hate relying on jumpgates for explanations.
> 
> 5. ?
> 
> 3 and 4 requires that they had technology.  Perhaps the Ancients
> left technology there that was helpful enough to boost their TL
> up at an early age.
> 
> If these critters can be player characters, then they cannot be
> frail at all.  Indeed, the stats for them are:
> 
> Str: 3D	 Dex: 2D  End: 3D  Int: 2D  Edu: 1D
> 
> ...they are strong and hardy, so a colony would not fail easily.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas?
> 
> Rob
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:04:09 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What accents do you use...

At 01:04 PM 2/9/98 -0800, you wrote:

>I, for one, would like to hear more about what accents you've used in
>Traveller games to represent different national/ethnic groups.

From my Lunion Campaign:

Sword Worlders:  Mostly German/Danish.  I tend to make the Combined
Force/Intellegence ops sound like SS form bad WWII movies.  

"Gut Day, I am here to purchase zom boot polish, You have this?"

Zhodani:  Chinese phrasing, with exagerated clicks and pops.  Looking at
Zhdatl, it appears to have a lot in common with the tongue of the bushmen,
or other African languagues. 

"I greet you, proprietor, I ask your assitance in acquiring these goods, if
you would be so kind."

Lunion:  New Yawkers.  Lunion is a meritocracy, you spend you life being
constantly examined for placement, jobs.  It has lead to a rather neurotic
planetary culture.  Fast talking, intense, short attention span.  (Joke
told about Lunionese:  A young man from Lunion had just wed, and was in the
honeymoon suite of the best hotel in orbit.  His new wife comes out of the
dressing room in the sexiest lingerie to be found, smiles at him, and says
"come here, and make me feel like a real woman!"  At that, the man starts
crying, sobbing "I'm a failure as a husband" over and over.  Concerned, his
wife asks him what does he mean?  The man raises his tear streaked face,
and cries out:  "I didn't study for this part!")

"Hey! I need a copy of the Lunion Business Journal!  come on!  I don't have
all year!"

Strouden:  For some reason, they sound like B5's Centauri.  Considering the
planet was settled by Arameth Gridlore in 98, I shouldn't be surprised. :)

"Ah, Good Morning, my dear, dear friend, perhaps you might be able to sell
me a small amount of Trojan Fire Brandy, eh?"

Adabicci:  Colonial French accents, something like Vietnamese-accented
English.  This one needs to be heard, since the phrasing is no different.

To do Vargr, I keep my tongue pressed against my lower front teeth.  This
slurs some vowels nicely, and gives a nice feel to the speech.  Also, I
make sure that right after heavy exertion, my Vargr on speak in short, one
of two word burst to cover the reflexive panting.

"Human!  How much"<pause>"For the red white and orange 'Dreadnaughts'
jacket?"<pause>"Ring it up!" *manical laughter*

Aslan tend not to speak much, and then are extraordinarily polite.  I am
very creful with gender forms.  I also roll everything when doing Aslan. 

"Good morrrrinnng, Kepperrrr of this storrre, I wish to purrchase a
quuanity of Dustspice."

The last real development I've done is the Zaibonese, who are abrut, rude,
and to the point.  They also drop any form of speech that is ineffcient.
Any overly verbose individual will get a "Wasting Oxy" and be ignored.

"You. Needs buy, Howmuch?"
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:22:46 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Doug Berry wrote:

><flame attempt deleted>

Flame attempt?  No.  Flamebait...  possibly. : )   But it's all semantics...

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:03:16 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: John Woods, call the principals office...

Hello List,
  Sorry to bother you all like this, but I am looking to find John Woods,
seems I have misplaced his email addy <grin>...

  John, Please contact me regarding a potential Pocket Empires game vai
email... thanks.

   Hal

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:05:38 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Fiction anthologies etc.

Hi again!

My Email facility has had a few problems lately, so if you've tried to
contact me without result... that's why.

I've had a couple of responses but there's plenty of room for more
submissions....

I'm looking for short SF or Fantasy stories in electronic format to go in
an anthology I'm publishing electronically through Hafod. There'll be a
small royalty (eventually, probbably).

Once I get the Survival Guide finished (end of Feb/Mid March) I'll be
putting the stories together - I'll get back to current contrtibutors about
then.

For details contact me or the publisher.
Email:       Duncan@hafod.com
 Web Site at: http://www.hafod.demon.co.uk

They've just published one of my full-length outings....

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:10:54 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> >>>despite my level of training and experience, i was convinced I 
> >>>would never hit a target with a M-21 unless my spotter and I quoted 
> >>>Monty Python just before the shot.
> >>The Army worries me a lot.
> >Worry more, I picked up that habit from the Marine Sniper School.
> But you must remember that according to the late Department of the Army 
> official, we Marines are not connected to society, are extremists, and a 
> little dangerous!!!!!

WooHoo.  Semper Fi.  I'm a Marine, so what do you want to do thats extreme
& dangerous?  VOTE.

> Greg
> 
> The Count,
> MonteCristo@hotmail.com

Legate
legate@futureone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:59:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com>
Subject: Arbatrella Regency (was: GURPS Traveller)

Doug Berry wrote:

>On the other hand, the aftermath of wars makes a great enviroment.  I'm
>sketching out ideas for the Arbellatra Regency.  Since I love Conspiracy
>theories, I'm playing with the idea that a true heir is found (the
>great-great-granddaughter of Martin V), and factions either try to put the
>girl on the throne, where she can be easily manipulated, hustle her off the
>scenen so that Arbellatra can eventual take the crown, or kill her outright.

Or marry her off to Arbatrella's son, and ensure that the lineage-freaks
and the Navy-freaks are bowing down to the same person.  (Hey, it worked
for Henry Tudor after the Wars of the Roses.)


Tony Z

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:22:47 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Warships (esort carriers)

In a message dated 98-02-09 18:03:33 EST, you write:

<< 	S small ship comes in mind with 6 missile bays able to host a fighter
 	when empty. So the missile bay could also used as a hangar. The ship
 	would have about a dozen fire controls, 4 pd lasers, 4 sandcasters,
 	moderate armor and good evasion. A Missile corvette able to pick up
 	remaining fighters after battle. The problem is of course that the
 	typical usage of a missile corvette is to jump out of battle after
 	the missiles have been delivered. Corvettes are to light to stand
 	in the line of battle for long. >>

i guess i didnt make it clearer about the purpose of what the corvette/escort
carrier would before... its not ment for operation in a battle line for long..
the basic ops for the corvette/escort carrier would be to cruise along with a
couple of armed  merchantmen and other bulk cargo freighters with thier
destroyer escorts.  when an enemy would attack the convey, the corvette would
launch it's fighters and remain near the cargo ships.  the 'vettes anti-ship
weapons whould operate to nock out any pirate fighters that get to close...
once the destoyers and fighters do their thing hte 'vette would pick up its
fighters and continue on its way.

this would allow you to give a fighter escort to your corperate supporters
when in times of conflict. all this really is, is a cheap placebo (sp)...  it
makes the corp feel safe and keeps the weaker pirates off the convoys back.

the corvette/escort carrier would have a secondary mission as well... use in
commerce raider missions.

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:30:27 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

>> I reject your notion that jump space is 2D and contend that the flat maps
>> are merely a 2D representation of the 3D situation.
>
>Very possible, but then you really cannot overlay the Imperial jump map
>on realspace at all.

This is very true!  The only relationship the Imperium has to our real earth
is one of creation.  The earth of the Solomani is at best an alternate
reality version of ours.  Don't try to make things fit that never were
intended to.  If you insist on 3D space in your game, then it can't be
Traveller.  The 2D maps are part and parcel of the Traveller package.  If
you'd ever tried to use a 3D map in Traveller, you'd know why.

Let me show you what I mean.  Below is a 3D map that covers an 8 parsec
cube.  It contains 14 systems of interest (just like in Traveller).  There
may be other systems that are not shown because they are not habitable and
don't have gas giants, etc.  In order to simplify things, I have placed each
of the stars at an integer on each of the 3 coordinates (X,Y,Z).  On a map
of this scale, the ranges for each variable are -3 to 4.  I didn't put in a
scale because it causes the map to look wrong.  If you would like to see
what this map should look like and you can handle HTML email or have a .TXT
file reader/editor and can handle attachments, write me <cybernot@gte.net>.

|               *+4 *-3
|
|                             *-2          *+0
|
|               *-3                       *-2
|                             *+0 *+0
|
|                             *+0               *+1
|        *-1                              *-1
|                      *+1        *+0  *+4

Let's start in the upper left hand corner.  Do you see the star that has the
notation +4 beside it?  That star's coordinates would be (-3,4,4).  The X
and Y can be found by inspection, the Z coordinate is displayed as +4,
because it is 4 parsecs "above" the central plane.  The star which appears
closest to it (-2,4,-3) is in fact over 7 parsecs away.

To find the distance between them, you will have to use a ruler and some
trig.  First measure the distance between the two stars.  It is 1 parsec.
Then find the difference in the two Z coordinates (4-(-3)=7).  Then find the
square root of the product to the squares (sqr(1^2 + 7^2) = 7.071).
notations beside the stars.  In fact we find that the one that looks
farthest away the one in the lower right corner with a +4 notation (3,-3,4)
is in fact closer than some of the ones that look closer.  The distance
across the plane between these two stars is  9.220 parsecs and they are on
the same level so the total distance is only 9.22 parsecs.  It is only a
little over 2 parsecs further away than the one that looks like its right
next to it.

For some games the added complication would be worth while (if you don't
mind the math), but for Traveller, with it's jump engines,  the
complication, IMO, is unwarranted.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:54:23 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

In a message dated 98-02-09 17:57:31 EST, you write:

<< Could someone give me some pointers to where I can find info on the
 costs of starship operations?   >>

PASSENGERS			CARGO
UWP	Available at Sourceworld 	UWP	Available at Sourceworld
	Pop	High	Mid	Low	Pop	Major	Minor	Incidental
	0	---	---	---	0	---	---	---
	1	---	1D-2	2D-6	1	---	1D-2	2D-6
	2	1D-1D	1D	2D	2	1D-1D	1D	2D
	3	2D-2D	2D-1D	3D-1D	3	2D-2D	2D-1D	3D-1D
	4	2D-1D	3D-2D	3D-1D	4	2D-1D	3D-2D	3D-1D
	5	2D-1D	3D-2D	3D-1D	5	2D-1D	3D-2D	3D-1D
	6	3D-2D	3D-2D	3D	6	3D-2D	3D-2D	3D
	7	3D-2D	3D-1D	3D	7	3D-2D	3D-1D	3D
	8	3D-1D	3D-1D	4D	8	3D-1D	3D-1D	4D
	9	3D-1D	3D	5D	9	3D-1D	3D	5D
	A	3D	4D	6D	A	3D	4D	6D
	B	4D	5D	7D	B	4D	5D	6D
	C	5D	6D	8D	C	5D	6D	9D
	Cargo and Passenger Availability: Roll once per week; unused cargoes and
uncarried passengers do not accumulate. 

 TRADE & COMMERCE
Carrying cargoes and freight between worlds is the foundation of interstellar
commerce.
DMs for Marketworld: If Population 4-: -3. If Population 8-: +3. If Red Zone:
- -12 (no middle or low passengers; no freight); if Amber Zone: -6 (no major
freight). Tech Level: Add (or subtract) difference between Sourceworld and
Marketworld tech levels. 
Skills influence Passenger Availability: DM + Carousing for High; DM +Admin;
DM + Streetwise for Low.
Skills influence Cargo Availability. DM + Trader for all cargoes. 
 TRADE & COMMERCE
CHECKLIST
1. Find Passengers and Cargo.
	A. Roll for all 3 passenger types.
	B. Roll for all 3 types of cargoes.
2. Buying Trade Goods.
	A. Find Sourceworld Trade Data.
		1. Trade Classifications.
		2. Starport Type.
		3. Tech Level.
	B. Find Cost of Goods.
		1. Trade Price Modifiers
		2. Tech Level Modifiers
		3. Starport Type4e Modifier.
		4. Accelerated Delivery.
	C. Purchase Goods.
3. Selling Trade Goods
	A. Find Market World Trade Data.
		1. Trade Classifications.
		2. Starport Type.
		3. Tech Level.
	B. Find Price For Goods.
		1. Trade Price Modifiers
		2. Tech Level Modifiers
		3. Starport Type Modifier.
	C. Sell Goods.

 MERCHANT SHIP REVENUES
Item	Income
High Passage	Cr10,000
Middle Passage	8,000
Low Passage	1,000
Cargo (per ton)	1,000
Mail (if fitted)	25,000

BROKERS
Broker	Starport	Mod	Comm
Broker-7+	A	+4	20%
Broker-5,6	AB	+3	15%
Broker-3,4	ABC	+2	10%
Broker-1,2	ABCD	+1	  5%
Brokers influence the Actual Value Table, but must be paid a commission. 
	Broker receives half the commission (the other half goes to expenses). Goods
are delivered to the ship in 4 days. Accelerated delivery adds 10% per day.
	Freight designates goods carried for a fee by a ship; Cargo is trade goods
bought by the ship owner and carried as speculation.
 COST OF GOODS
Code		Trade Class	Price Mod
	Ag	Agricultural	-1,000
	Ast	Asteroid Belt	-1,000
	Ba	Barren	+1,000
	De	Desert	+1,000
	Fl	Fluid Oceans	+1,000
	Hi	High Population	-1,000
	Ic	Ice Capped	0
	Ind	Industrial	-1,000
	Lo	Low Population	+1,000
	Na	Non Agricultural	0
	Ni	Non Industrial	+1,000
	Po	Poor	-1,000
	Ri	Rich	+1,000
	Va	Vacuum	+1,000
	Wa	Water World	0
	Base Cost: Cr4,000 per ton.
	Trade Class Effects: Add the price mod shown for EACH trade class.
	Tech Level Effects: Multiply tech level by Cr100 and add to base cost.
	Starport Effects: Starport type adds to the base cost. A: -1,000. B: no
change. C: +1,000. D: +2,000. E: +3,000. X: +5,000.
 MARKET PRICE							Market
Source	Ag	Ast	Ba	De	Fl	Hi	Ic	Ind	Lo	Na	Ni	Po	Ri	Va	Wa
	Ag	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Ast	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Ba	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	De	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Fl	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Hi	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Ic	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Ind	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Lo	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Na	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Ni	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Po	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Ri	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Va	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Wa	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
	Total all intersections between source trade class and market trade class and
multiply by Cr1,000. Add to this figure the base market price of Cr5,000. If
the market code includes Ba, goods may not be sold.
 ACTUAL VALUE
	2D	Percentage Value
	2	40%
	3	50%
	4	70%
	5	80%
	6	90%
	7	100%
	8	110%
	9	120%
	10	130%
	11	150%
	12	170%
	13	200%
	14	300%
	15	400%
	Results of less than 2 are 2.Results of greater than 15 are 15. DM + Broker
(to a maximum of 4).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:22:32 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Atlantis Destoyer

Nice. My only comment is that even *I* think eleven LIDARs is probably
excessive - by the time that many are taken out by damage little of the
rest of the ship will remain.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:19:05 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  questions

>One thing no one accounts for in any ship design system I've ever seen
>is that bigger ships will have a theoretical maximum acceleration that
>is lower than smaller ships.  This is because the strength of a support
>structure is dependent on the cross sectional area while the mass (and
>therefore the force it generates when under acceleration) is dependent
>on the volume.

Actually, we did put this into FFS Rtry it, itUs not that badS 2: internal structure/
bracing volume as a percentage goes up with ship size.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:04:52 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Laser Comms

>[using laser comms as weapons]
"reverse engineering" them into weapons with FFS2 rules isn't easy, as 
laser comm systems will be continuous-beam lasers (or effectively so) rather
than the pulsed lasers we have rules for. One should probably assume the 
highest possible pulse rate from FFS2, I suppose, for first-order...

My (never-quite-completed) 21st-century first Jump exploration ship has a 
(non-grav-focus) comm laser designed to let it talk back to Earth from
36 parsecs away (worst-case misjump); that makes a reasonable weapon.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:35:58 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Mines

Walt Smith wrote:


>Here's an idea for the "Jump Mines" we've been talking about:
>
<snip>
>
>If you don't care whether or not your drive survives jump initiation, do
you need it to be in a 100 dton package? Could your shipping crate just have
a jump drive, short-term power plant and a small measure of fuel (allowing
it to be much smaller)?

Sneaky ain't you?  I believe that the minimum fuel required would be 140
cubic meters, however this begs the question, "Can you open a jump tunnel in
solid matter?"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:05:31 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba	ttle Riders)

>> And thus, once again, we see that modern technology is not infallible.
>> OTOH, imagine how many friendlies it has saved from accidental
fratricide.
>
>
>Yeah, very good point and one that is almost always overlooked.  I got
>locked up several times over in the Gulf, usually by 16's and 18's off
>of the boats.
>
>Wonder where I would have been if my IFF hadn't been working?

Let us not even consider that.  We're glad you are here not feeding the fish
over there.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:02:28 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Space

>A ship with a J-1 drive takes one week to jump a sector.  Does a ship with
a
>J-2 drive take half a week or still one week to a sector?
>
>Cygnus

One week regardless of distance jumped.  It doesn't matter how far you jump,
it takes 1 week +/-.  The jump between Earth and Mars would take a week.
The jump between Sol and Alpha Centari would take a week.  If you misjumped
going from Sol to Alpha Centari and got lucky and emerged in the system of
Canopus (some 30 parsecs distance), it would still take you 1 week +/-.

Traveller's just funny that way.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:19:08 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 09:52 am 2/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>How do they change?  Manually.  Its a huge pain in the butt to
remember
>to swap squawks especially since you may be "busy" at the time
dodging
>rocks, fighters, etc.

	Doesn't have to be manually. You could be given a datacrystal
with the next 6 cryptoperiod's keys, automatically changed by
software...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:00:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Drawing questions

At 08:16 am 2/8/98, you wrote:
>Moin David J. Golden,
>
>> 	The hull grid is spread out over the surface of the entire
ship,
>> and the actual volume of the *grid* (not the rest of the
drive)
>> can be assumed negligible and included within the hull itself.
It
>> just occupies surface area.
>
>	so its just a magical painting a ship must have to handwave
jump. 

	Well, yes and no. As far as jump drive is magical, yes. But the
volume is already calculated in the volume of the drive. As for a
coating, IIRC in SOpM the grid was spaced about 1m apart.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:21:55 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Questions

At 11:51 am 2/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 2:40 PM -0500 2/7/98, Goran Sjoberg wrote:
>> Hi, here are the q's!
>>
>>1. If you compare to fighters and capships in movies, how would
the speed
>>and agility be like? Are they sluggish and easy to shoot down?
>
>One thing no one accounts for in any ship design system I've
ever seen
>is that bigger ships will have a theoretical maximum
acceleration that
>is lower than smaller ships.  This is because the strength of a
support

	FF&S2 accounts for this. For the same acceleration rating,
larger ships require a greater percentage of structural material
than smaller ships. Or, rephrased, a large ship with the same
relative amount of structure will have a lower acceleration than
a smaller ship.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:30:30 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

At 08:27 am 2/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>V.A.G. wrote:
>
>
>>J-Man wrote:
>>
>>> > > Yes, and I have the 8 hour version on Tape.  The Sci-Fi
Channel
>played
>>> > > it a few years ago and I recorded it then.  Makes the
whole movie
>make
>>> > > more sense.
>>
>>> Well, send me an 8 hour tape and I'll see what I can do..:)
>>That probably would result in an NTSC-Tape, wouldn t it?
>>Damn, why can t the world have a unified tv signal?
>
>We'll probably get that about the same time we all start using
the same
>emailing programs on the same make of computers.  :-)

	And that'll happen only after we all agree how jump drive works
... which means agreeing with me, because I have the right answer
(duck).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #128
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 10 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 129



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Spooks, spokes, and pee-gee-pee (was RE: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation)
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)
Location of Traveller Gamers
Re: Jump Space
Re: Laser Comms
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders)
JSpace and alternate campaigns (was Re: Jump Space)
Jump Mines
Re: Warships (esort carriers)
Re: Atlantis Class destroyer
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Drawing questions
Re: [TTL] HEPlaR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:35:08 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 06:03 pm 2/9/98 GMT0, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <34DDD4DA.46D7@ebicom.net>
>
>> > I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature
of the enemy.
>> > Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an
enemy's
>> > Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?
>>  
>> Yes.  Better have the correct days codes though, or you will
wind up
>> with the correct box but squawking yestredays code.  This
shows up as a
>> "negative" interrogation, meaning the fighter marks you as
>>  
>> "Kill me, please"
>>  
>> How to get the correct codes?  Seeing as the can change very
fast and
>> multiple times(ie what was good 1 hour ago ain't good
anymore,) fat
>> chance.
>
>How about for ships out on patrol? They're going to need to know
*in 
>advance* what the codes are going to be, otherwise the system
defence forces 
>are going to blow the **** out of them when they jump back
in-system. Same 
>situation if two patrolling ships meet. It's going to have to be
something 
>the computer can generate. Capture an enemy ship intact, without
anybody 

	Not necessarily something that can be generated on board. By
analogy with today, you'll be issued a pack of sealed data
crystals, each containing one edition of the key. Furthermore,
you'll only be given a limited number. A COACC fighter would be
given a day's worth; an IN task force gets a few months' worth,
assuming they'll be stopping at naval bases along the way every
few weeks, but might get lost or sumpin'.


>knowing (tricky, admittedly), and you've got the codes.

	Not necessarily something that can be generated on board.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:08:51 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Spooks, spokes, and pee-gee-pee (was RE: Some Astronomy Questions that relate to Astrogation)

At 08:12 am 2/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> 	I will bet you every single last cent I own that you cannot
do
>> it. I'd suggest actually looking into cryptography before
making
>> such blanket statements. And if you CAN do it, you'd better
watch
>> out for the NSA--they'd be very interested.

>For military applications, it would definitely be useful and
used, I hope,
>but civilians are lazy, and most would certainly be taken in by
a forged
>post with a public key sig on it that looked like it was from
you (hell, it
>wouldn't even have to be your own key -- we could make a new
public key with
>the name Dave Golden as the owner, sign the message, and even
register it
>with a public key server or two as YOURS, and then sign the
message, spoof
>your email address, and viola, you just threatened the UN
Secretary

	The original application was validating astrographic updates.
The sig checking would be done automatically by program. Agreed,
relying on someone reading an email message to check a sig for
routine email isn't likely to happen. But for something that
critical (or for IFF signatures ...) it'll be built into the
software using the data. If you override the warning "WARNING!
Astrographic update not certified by IISS or corporate
astrography! Do you want to continue (Y/N)?," well, I think of
that as evolution in action.

	BTW, I've already got signed keys on the servers. So you can try
to upload another key in my name; I don't recall if the servers
check for that. But it'd be kind of curious to find one key
that's not signed by the previous keys. And the keyservers
automatically exchange info, so I'm on all of them.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:17:58 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 09:05 am 2/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm convinced that I could not duplicate the IFF signature of
the enemy.
>Could my character, being the sneaky devil he is, install an
enemy's
>Transponder (or whatever is interrogated) on his ship?

	Certainly, assuming you can get hold of one without damaging it,
remove it from its current mounting without triggering the
anti-tampering device, and get the current cryptokey (without
alerting anybody else). 

	First step is doable by any skilled player party.

	Second step would be an extremely hard (note
non-task-system-specific difficulty), but any Scotty-level
engineer can.

	Third step may not be necessary, depending on the cryptoperiod
(how frequently the keys change), and how long you want to use
it. If you're just trying to escape in the next ten minutes
without getting shot down, you should still be within the window.
If you're stealing it in system A, for a covert entry into system
B one jump and seven days later, you gotta get the future keys
WITHOUT leaving any sign --otherwise the enemy will send out an
emergency compromise message on the fastest couriers they've got.

	For insystem or COACC IFF keys, where you can have fairly well
synced clocks and changeover, I'd expect keys to change no less
often than daily, and probably more frequently. For IN subsector
forces, probably around monthly.

	Further, there'd be different TYPES of IFF keys. The
least-changing keys would be keys that can be used to identify
you to ANY friendly. All that means is that they won't blow you
away immediately--you won't immediately be accepted into the
bosom of the fleet with gunports open, because the key is so
stale (and hence more likely to have been compromised, cracked,
or otherwise revealed).

	System forces will have another key they use to coordinate among
themselves. Likewise, ships in a single task force will have
another key Both of these would change more frequently, and have
a correspondingly higher level of trust.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:31:56 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Harold D. Hale wrote:
> 
> Greg Smith writes:
> 
> >>>The Army worries me a lot.
> >>
> >>Worry more, I picked up that habit from the Marine Sniper School.
> >
> >But you must remember that according to the late Department of the Army
> >official, we Marines are not connected to society, are extremists, and a
> >little dangerous!!!!!
> 
>    I now a good time to bring up my idea about how the Marines should be an
> Army organization, in the same way that the 82nd Airborne and 101st Air
> Assault divisions are?  :-)
> 
>    All you have to do is take one look in a Marine tactics manual and see
> that to be a good Marine you must be an extremist and *very* dangerous.
> 
>    If I have one knock on the US Marines, it is their rather...interesting
> behavior with regard to marching.  I recall riding my bicycle across a
> portion of Ft. Bliss, TX one day while I was attending Officer Basic Course
> and seeing two Marines, one calling cadence the other marching smartly down
> the side of the road responding to the other Marine's command.  That's
> right, drill and ceremony for a column of one!  I didn't know quite what to
> make of that one....but I can tell you that an Army 2LT on a bicycle doesn't
> rate a salute (as long as they were pretending to be a column, they could
> have at least pretended I was an officer! <grumble>).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Harold
> 


Probably just an oversight.  Every marine I've ever met was locked-on
so much that it was scary.  I'm sure they'd be bummed if they knew
they'd missed that salute (but not too much).

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:33:57 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>  deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
> 
> >> What do you do when you ARE the good guys, and you fail authentication?
> >> Shoot back?  Or do you just... [drum roll, please]
> >> "I dunno, just fly casual..."
> 
> >Ask the Blackhawks that got blown down by a couple of F-15's a couple of
> >years ago over in the sandbox.
> 
> Or the British unit attached to the Warrior APC that got trashed by mistake
> by the USAF.
> 

I think he already memntioned that.  At least someone did.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:43:18 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Location of Traveller Gamers

I am located in Newport RI and will be stationed here until
mid May 98.  Is there anyone out there (on the list or not)
in a nearby locality who might be interested in a Rebellion
Era Traveller campaign?

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:32:04 -0500
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Space

>One week regardless of distance jumped.  It doesn't matter how far you
jump,
>it takes 1 week +/-.  The jump between Earth and Mars would take a week.
>The jump between Sol and Alpha Centari would take a week.  If you misjumped
>going from Sol to Alpha Centari and got lucky and emerged in the system of
>Canopus (some 30 parsecs distance), it would still take you 1 week +/-.
According to the old book 2 CT rules, doesn't a misjump take anywhere from 1
to 6 weeks to complete, or has this been changed in later additions of
Traveller? I've only recently gotten back into the game, and haven't had a
chance to check out most of the MT, TNE and T4 rules yet.

- -- Bob Kondrk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:32:08 EST
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Laser Comms

In a message dated 98-02-09 21:38:38 EST, you write:

<< My (never-quite-completed) 21st-century first Jump exploration ship has a 
 (non-grav-focus) comm laser designed to let it talk back to Earth from
 36 parsecs away (worst-case misjump); that makes a reasonable weapon. >>

Who wants to wait over two centuries for the response, though? : )

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 00:35 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Moin Andrew Boulton,

	* sorry about my german/english translation. Dont know if hailing
	  was the right word for greeting on ships over radio. Could also
	  be one of my "blind passenge/bullseye" language missjumps, sometimes
	  happen when I'm using plattueske-sailors speak.

> How about for ships out on patrol? They're going to need to know *in 
> advance* what the codes are going to be, otherwise the system defence forces 
> are going to blow the **** out of them when they jump back in-system. Same 
> situation if two patrolling ships meet. It's going to have to be something 
> the computer can generate. Capture an enemy ship intact, without anybody 
> knowing (tricky, admittedly), and you've got the codes.

1140-1206: Rurevayn
	My va^h^hempire has a easy solution. Any ship has to carry a human
	transponder, the so called communication officier. If a ship doesn't
	answer hailing, or the human transponder thinks that an AI tries
	to cheat him : boom - old 3I transponders have long been disabled
	because of security reason. Sending a transponder, but not hailing
	is calling for OAD or COACC.

1088-1130: Third Empire
	I think the last 3I protocol was be to send the transponder-sqirk
	generated from a AI, imposible to fake (have you tried to fake
	a dog, that other dogs think its a dog) constantly connected
	to the ship computer network. The sqirk not only told the ship
	ID, but all jumps the ship has done since build, who are the
	commanding officers, the rest of the crew. When got weapons
	fired, did the ship got damage, what was on sensors, did the
	captain sleep with the lower ranks of the crew, ..., and last
	but most important, did the transponder turned offline. Normaly
	this sqirk was exchanged between transponders, and only a
	filtered set was printed or spoken by transponder translators on
	the comunication console of ships and starports. The abiltiy to
	detect hijacking and piracy attemts, by a simple transponder
	sqirk made this device so attractive over the old crypto based
	transponder that all ships within the 3I had to install it
	within 12 years.

	Even then hailing a ship before shooting at it was common practice
	to prevent accidents like that own troops who captured an enemy
	vessel during combat but lost one of their own, got killed by
	friendly fire when they exist jumpspace and call for port.
	During the rebellion, hailing and body swap become the most
	important IFF, as ships changed sides often.

400-1080: Third Empire
	The new transponder based on TL:13 holographic crytography was
	installed, as a second version protocol it suffererd all problems
	of any 2nd version implementations. It was buggy, feature ridden,
	and difficult to use. It was an attempt to make piracy imposible,
	and had several features of the late AI transponder. Over they
	centuries any TL in computers showed up an other leak of breaking
	into transponder messages, and the protocol was patched so often
	that in 900, several computer scientist claimed that obscurity of
	the code is the only security the transponder could claim.

	Because of well known problems, hailing got even more important.

- -200-400: Third Empire
	The first sylean transponder based on TL:12 crytography is installed
	on any sylean vessel. It does only sends own signature stamp,
	tonnage, armament, date of construction and ship ID. Legal codes
	(like owner and last bank payments) are not stored in the
	transponder, but distributed by the x-boat network predecessor.

	Hailing was for great importance to ensure that the vessel is not
	stolen.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 00:46 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Moin Greg Smith,

> IFF in those days was what it looked like.  You pretty much knew that a 
> P51D (Mustang) was not an enemy!  And I'm sure that the other side did 
> the same thing.  We have systems in place now because of the ranges and 
> capabilities of our weapons systems.  As you stretch the ranges out even 
> further, it becomes more critical to have a positive ID.

	This reminds me of an advice Immelman gave to pilots: "When you
	received minor hits, and your plane will be trottleing at 500ft,
	and you are over friendly lines, take a parachute to avoid friendly
	fire."

	Muddily infantry is unable to deceide who's friend or foo, and
	shoots at everything, even the big signs on the wings did'nt
	helped much. A non spoken consense between german and french
	pilots on dive hunts, was to break dive at 750ft to avoid being
	caught by friendly fire, and to climb to take a second attempt.

	This all was WWI of course.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:50:47 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Greg Smith wrote:> Do you still train pilots on recognizing silhouettes?
(sp)  How 'bout
> the air defense artillery guys?

Yeah, but we actually use photos of the aircraft.  US and newer Russian
birds look a lot alike.  So do Blackhawks and Hind D's.  But not that
much alike.  Personal opinion:those guys(the fighter jocks) should have
been shot.  If I had done that I couldn't live with myself, and would
welcome death.  But I'm just a bomber puke(read target.)
> > IFF in those days was what it looked like.  You pretty much knew that a
> P51D (Mustang) was not an enemy!  And I'm sure that the other side did
> the same thing.  We have systems in place now because of the ranges and
> capabilities of our weapons systems.  As you stretch the ranges out even
> further, it becomes more critical to have a positive ID.
> 
One of my older friends was a Mustang driver in the Pacific during the
Deuce.  The US invented IFF during WWII, something I didn't know about.
Realistically we had better find a near fullproof way to ID in combat
because it is just getting worse.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:50:54 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Capture an enemy ship intact, without anybody
> knowing (tricky, admittedly), and you've got the codes.
> 

An eloquent and correct point.  Assuming the capturer knows what he has
and how to use it.

Usually we carried said codes on paper.  They fry if the jet fries.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:51:00 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders)

> Or the British unit attached to the Warrior APC that got trashed by mistake
> by the USAF.
> 

Yeah....nothing like killin your buds. 

Sometimes I wonder if people really understand the ramifications of
these things, even though I was there and know how fast it all was
moving.

Unfortunatly sorrow isn't enough to bring them back.  They can join the
hundreds (or thousands) of our own we've scratched by mistake keeping
the world "safe for free trade" over the last 45 years.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:51:10 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <34DF14DD.24F4@ebicom.net>
> 
> > > You not only have to have the right transponder, you have to have the
> > > list of codes to program into it for the current time period. They'll
> > > change *daily*.
> >
> > Try up to every 30 minutes.
> 
> [See also my other post]
> How will you get the new codes to the people who need them?
> 

Thats why we come back to the O'club every evening.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:51:17 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders)

The Mighty B-52 Stratofortress. BUFF for short.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:44:53 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: JSpace and alternate campaigns (was Re: Jump Space)

A few months ago I posted to the list a question on what the possible flaws
were in having an alternate Traveller setting in which jumps were instant,
but were only capable to between *very* deep space points. These were
quickly pointed out to me in a very thoughtful and conscise manner, as were
suggestions of a workaround.  (Unfortuantely, a "Mote in God's Eye" type
jump point has it's own problems for me -- specifically I don't like
"special places" in spacetime).

However, this thread has me thinking again. Say I want to do a setting in
which a jump drive was simply a hyperdrive (kinda like the subspace drive in
FF&S), where the jump number actually denotes speed? What you would have is
a jump-1 ship traveling 1 parsec in 1 week, and a jump-6 ship traveling one
parsec in 1/6th a week. Everything else is the same -- fuel usage (no matter
the reason), the size threshold for jump-capable vessels, the fact that once
a ship jumps it cannot change course, nor can it communicate with normal
space, and so on. How would *this* affect the setting? Off the top of my
head, I don't see this as changing something like long-distance
communications (where long-distance means sectors across). Certainly it will
change details, but would it make it so that the Imperium as a whole
wouldn't develop (as the instant jump idea seemed to do)? How would it
affect regional wars? How would it affect commerce? What about the price of
Pan-Galactic Gargleblasters on Regina?

Speculations and pontifications are asked, my good fellows.

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 06:20 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Jump Mines

Moin Walter G. Smith,

> Easy to detect if the shipping line is looking for it, pretty
expensive for a bomb - but it won't look like a bomb unless their
security people are expecting it. It could even ship quite innocuosly as
a Scout/Courier being delivered as cargo.

	and will cause 2d20 major damage in the cargo hold. A bit expensive
	as we can have the same thing with explosive fertilisers, you can
	even declare them as such.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 07:00 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Warships (esort carriers)

Moin Richard,

> i guess i didnt make it clearer about the purpose of what the corvette/escort
> carrier would before... its not ment for operation in a battle line for long..

	Ah I think I now we can make a deal for trade escord, the ship
	even looks like a liner, you know the dog between sheep.

	http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe/shipyard/RA-12-540-Nagast.html

	The half size package for 20 troops & flight crew and 8 fighters.
	also mounts a 40m-1080Mj PA and a missile bay, and a 286Mj laser.

	Without weaponry and fighters for only : 110MCr/Tl:12

	Transponder designation should of course change to VE-12-540.

	*** Spoiler warning :

	MM-T4.1 disignator would be probately HL-5821S-MS

	translates into

	H: Carrier
	L: Liner
	58~500dt
	2 Jump
	1 G
	Streamlined
	Missile
	Spinal Mount

	not bad for a subsidary liner ;-)

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:20:00 -0600
From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Atlantis Class destroyer

Bruce wrote:
>Nice. My only comment is that even *I* think eleven LIDARs is probably
>excessive - by the time that many are taken out by damage little of the
>rest of the ship will remain.

My only longic was this - each weapon has its own LIDAR system. Eleven
weapons, 11 LIDARs.

If this is inappropriate, I can certainly lower the number.

Also, a mistake - the two sip boats are carried in docking rings, not
grapples - I ran out of area for grapples (Advanced Masking and level 2
stealth will do that to you).

And a question - how are the active decoys used? Are they shot off once
and then gone...or do they stick around until recovered or destroyed?
They seem awfuly huge and expensive for one-shot deals (I oringally had
one on the ship, but it took up too much space).

And any suggestions on my capital-ship killer missile - it has four
warheads and a chaff dispenser/ECM suite...what kind of penalties would
that give to a CIWS?

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew, Christine, and Matthew Akins                               |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 04:02:01 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Hello Folks,
  Maybe someone could spot the "logic" error in my thinking (assuming
there is one)...

Place the master IFF "key" in the main vault of the warship on a computer.
This computer requires that the security officer enter in a password some
time within a set time interval (let us say every 48 hours because Jumps
take 168 hours to effect).  This Key, contains all the information for
IFF's for a time period of say, maybe 4 months.  Each "key" can be
sycronized manually by security officers for those ships that have to
operate away from information services such as SDB's cut off during an
invasion by an enemy, yet still able to work with each other as a
squadron.
  In the mean time, each "new" key issued (three times a year) is
delivered via Xboat or fleet dispatch boats so that they can keep a
reasonable IFF system functioning.  Since it is highly unlikely that ships
from one theater of operations will be sent to distant operation theaters
(say Solimani sphere patrol sent to Spinward Marches), not all ships will
need to be maintained in the IFF database, only those within the theater
plus those expected to move from location to location.  In essence, only
the IFF codes of ships that have Jump ability.

  What have I missed?  The enemy can't access the IFF once they get a
functioning box because it requires a security password to be entered
every 48 hours.  The ships get updates as reasonably quickly as possible.
Only those ships as likely to meet with other ships will be in the
database, or have access to the keys.

  About the only "weak" point I can see, is that the Xboats themselves
could be captured, and someone attempt to jimmy the computers there, or
perhaps a spy getting his/her/it's appendages upon the codes while at the
naval base.  Oh, almost forgot, the security officer must wear at all
times, a Psionic Shield.

  Comments?  Improvements to the scheme?  

   Hal

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 01:48:14 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

> >Actually, close.  But instead of explode, I wanted them to all
> >"mis-jump" creating an unstable jumpfield so that parts of the enemy
> >fleet just go into jump at random.
> 
> Ouch.  Alas, according to canon, since the jumpfield doesn't get more than
> a meter or two away from the object, it wouldn't really work.
> --
> 


Is there ANY way to enhance this?  Maybe induce a small black hole by
detonating a large nuclear warhead inside a partially formed jump field?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:00:52 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Drawing questions

> No, it is a network of fine thread-like wires built into the mass of
> the hull.  It takes up surface area, but it so light weight that the
> total mass is tiny, and included as part of the general hull weight.
 
 I posted some thoughts on this 10 days ago but no-one responded!  I'll 
repeat my views here:  
 
I know what FFS2 and MT's Starship operation manual say, but it does 
not seem to be entirely consistent to me.
 
Do people have any strong views about how we might visualise the grids:
 
1) the jump grid is lots of narrow (1 mm dia) wires over the surface of 
the ship.  For this case, do these wires go "over" or "under" such 
fixtures as turrets, bays, sensor antennae, spinal mount openings, 
HEPLAR exhaust ports.  is there a maximum separation for the wires? 
Does this separation reduce with jump number?  If the wires go over 
other features, why bother to assign a surface area to them in FFS2?
 
2) the jump grid is mostly contained in a few area (say, near the fore 
and aft of the vessel, plus near the tips of wings, tailplanes) with 
half-a-dozen grid lines joining the key nodes.
 
Following the SOM, I used to handwave things as (1), saying that 
turrets had to be in the correct position for jump (so their grids 
matched the rest of the ship), antennae had to be retracted and thin 
doors closed over spinal mounts, M-drive ports and so on.  I always 
liked the idea of last-minute EVA to unjam the turret, or to re-lay a 
section of damaged grid with a lanthanum welding rod as the ship flees 
combat.
 
Now that FFS2 assigns a specifc surface area to the grids, and this 
reduces the area available for turrets, airlocks and so on, I decided I 
needed a new handwave.  One option is to keep my original hand wave and 
add in the "node areas" of (2) and claim that these are what FFS2 is 
refering to.
 
What does the team think?
 
Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:00:56 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TTL] HEPlaR

>(I'll post it just as soon as I figure out how to post a spreadsheet).
 
I also think the FFS2 XL spreadsheet is a wonderful tool.  At the end 
of this message are a handy pair of macros that will save
and load designs as simple text files (size approx 2.7k per file).  The
macros work by writing to (or reading from)  file the value in each
unlocked cell on the sheets Design, Las1,..., Mes2.  just copy the 
macros from this message and paste them into the Module of FFSXL (you 
may need to uprotect the sheet first).

I have used the standard "GetSaveAsFilename" and "GetOpenFilename"
calls for dialog boxes as these should allow long file names on Win95
and WinNT.  On my system it is very quick (1 or 2 seconds) to save or
load a design.  The savings of disk space should be worthwile for just
about everyone ... and think of the benefit of being able to post a
series of designs (2.7k each) on a web page so that others can use them
without laboriously entering the data from the USP.

If there is interest (from TMLers), I can easily produce a
listbox-style interface (in a separate XL file if required) that will
let someone browse their list of saved designs, load only certain
sheets (e.g. Laser or Missile sheets) and similar features.  I can add
"designers comments" at the bottom of the saved file (these could be
loaded into FFS2XL, or could be loaded into the summary workbook with
the list of designs - whatever you prefer).


Simon
(Traveller fan, Excel guru and usually short of time!).



Sub SaveDesign()
Close 'in case any spurious files have been left open
Dim c As Range
Dim FN As Integer
FileName = Application.GetSaveAsFilename("design1.ffs", "FFS2 ship
designs (*.ffs), *.ffs")
If FileName = False Then
    Exit Sub
End If
FN = FreeFile()
Open FileName For Output As #FN
Worksheets("Design").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:I258")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las3").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las4").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mis1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:G94")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mis2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:G94")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("PA1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("PA2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mes1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mes2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Write #FN, c.Value
    End If
Next c
Close #FN
End Sub

Sub LoadDesign()
Close
Dim c As Range
Dim FN As Integer
Dim temp As Variant
Dim FileName As String
FileName = Application.GetOpenFilename("FFS2 ship designs (*.ffs), 
*.ffs")
If FileName = False Then
    Exit Sub
End If
FN = FreeFile()
Open FileName For Input As #FN
    With Application
        .Calculation = xlManual
    End With
Worksheets("Design").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:I258")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las3").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Las4").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mis1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:G94")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mis2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:G94")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("PA1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("PA2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mes1").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
'
Worksheets("Mes2").Activate
For Each c In Range("D4:D43")
    If Not c.Locked Then
       Input #FN, temp
       c.Value = temp
    End If
Next c
Close #FN
    With Application
        .Calculation = xlAutomatic
    End With
End Sub



Simon

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #129
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 10 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 130



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: NASA Launches from Kennedy
Re: The jumpdrive debate
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Communist Writings in Sayat
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #129
Military roleplaying
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Military roleplaying (Long)
Re: Rob Prior, What's With Your E-Mail?
Re: Laser Comms
Re: Chamax and the Shriekers
Re: Patriotism
Re: Jump Space
Re: What accents do you use...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:52:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: NASA Launches from Kennedy

Thanks for the info folks.

Much appreciated.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:59:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The jumpdrive debate

 Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:

>SD Mooney wrote:
>> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> >Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:25:18 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>> >>This thread (IMO) is getting alnost as bad as the one on Pirates a few
>> >>months ago.
>> >Pirates!  He said pirates!  Flame him!
>> Uh Oh! Run for the Hundred Diameter Limit at full speed!
>> Dom

> Running will do no good.  It was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that
>even if
>the SDB in orbit around the planet is not prepared to give chase, there are
>enough of them for one to be waiting for you at whatever jomp point you will
>have chosen.

Damn! Engage the Jumpdrive now. I don't care if we're only just over 10
diameters - Let's go for a controlled misjump back home to the base 36
parsecs away out of the 2D jump plane using a bucket of hydrogen, a dynamo,
and a swiss army knife.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:39:58 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:


>My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
>Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or you
>are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most MT
>campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.

I had two types of game - one based in the Spinward Marches (which did
involve the odd scenario running from the Ihatei!) and one based in Hard
Times.

>On the other hand, the aftermath of wars makes a great enviroment.  I'm
>sketching out ideas for the Arbellatra Regency.  Since I love Conspiracy
>theories, I'm playing with the idea that a true heir is found (the
>great-great-granddaughter of Martin V), and factions either try to put the
>girl on the throne, where she can be easily manipulated, hustle her off the
>scenen so that Arbellatra can eventual take the crown, or kill her outright.
>
>Add in trials of war criminals, and everone scrambling for power in the
>post-bellum vaccuum....

Sort of a post-Hard Times scenario...?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 02:44:14 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Communist Writings in Sayat

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote

> Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> >kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)wrote
> >> Myself, I'm too busy trying to put _Das Kapital_ into Sayat.  Maybe I'll
> >> start with something easier, like something from _Macho Sluts_.
> >
> >I thought it was the people in Macho Sluts who were easy, not the work
> >itself.
> 
> Exactly!  Introducing "easy" characters leads to _hardness_.

I am certain I have no idea what you mean, after all this is a public
mailing list <blush>.

> Whereas with the Vilani, formality and stiffness leads to ease of
> translation.  You can just plunge in and have your way with it.
> Linguistically speaking.

> >Why don't you try some shorter (of course _everything_ else is shorter
> >than Das Kapital with the possible exception of Rememberance of Things
> >Past) piece of communist writing or song such as The Communist Manifesto
> >or possibly The Internationale ?
> 
> The Manifesto is, yes, on my short list.

But the Internationale is not ?  Some of the other, less right thinking
(but more right wing thinking) sophonts on this list are already working
on The Imperial Anthem.  If these reactionary counterrevolutionary
Imperialist running dogs & their lackies are going to have a cool theme
song don't the brave (and heavily armed) sophonts of the Sayat Concourse
need a theme song as well ?

>  "The spectre of Sayatism haunts
> Known Space..."  "...all that is superdense boils into plasma..."  Because
> it's so much more politically oriented, though, it's hard to translate in
> any "realistic" way into 50th ct. C.E. Sayat.
> 
> Of course, judicious and creative translation of, say, Mayakovsky would
> permit me to COMBINE the broad thematic contents of _Macho Sluts_ and _The
> Communist Manifesto_...
> And I'd never have thought of this without the mediation of Traveller.
> Probably.

So would this we a sort of "whip me, beat me, read me Communist
propaganda" sort of relationship then ?

So you are saying is that Traveller helps you be a more creative perv
but you were already enough of one to that you might have been able to
think this up on your own ?  Good for you. 

> Proust is _still_ waiting to be retranslated into his original Vilani.

I am almost afraid to ask this question but would I be correct in
assuming that in the original Vilani text M Swann did not consume
cookies called Madelines but rather consumed someone called Madeline ?

If so I hope it was not that nice young lady from the childrens books
who "in a old house in Paris that was covered in vines lived twelve
young girls in two straight lines.  The youngest one was Madeline."

Of course twelve young ladies who did everthing in common could very
easily be a Sayat junior infiltration team.  No doubt their leader the
erstwhile Miss Clavel was only pretending to be a nun.  Naturally any
details of this groups particulars & intentions you can provide would be
appreciated.

So was M Swann a Vilani living in Vilani society or was he a Vilani
observer living in France ?  The textural evidence in Rememberance does
suggest French society, as does that of the Madeline books whose
protagonist he apparently slaughtered and consumed In Cold Blood (but
presumably with a nice sauce), perhaps M Swann was from a shugili family
?

I have this sudden picture of France in the late Ninteenth and early
Twentieth conturies as being the hotbed of a covert war between the
Vilani and the Sayat.

No doubt the Concourse will one day/is/has already invented time travel
and travelled back in time to alter history for their benefit.  For some
odd reason both they and the Vilani have an unusual influence in France
[Note that the Coneheads also claimed to be from France, maybe France is
a hotbed of Alien activity.]  I would assume the Sayat were behind the
French Revolution, the Paris Commune, etc. and that The Phantom of the
Opera was a Slimy agent ?

Swann had some tendancies that would make him more likely to be Darmine
than Vilani however.  Somehow I don't think that the conformist Vilani
are too big on, the love that dares not speak its name, shall we say.

Of course the Vilani might not mind as long as you don't do it in public
and frighten the horses....

Maybe this is why Norris is [IMNSHO} a closet case.  Possibly the Vilani
influenced Imperial culture is one like that of Victorian England, where
nice people did not talk about this sort of thing, they merely indulged
in it ?

> We'll show those warty-faced Klingon wankers a thing or two.  O yes.

You are confusing me here is it the Klingons faces, their wankers, or
both, that are warty ?

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote

> J-Man wrote:

> >  As to what you say about nano-tech
> >not being viable, apparently a great many scientists believe 
> > otherwise. The current conscensus is that this technology
> >IS going to change things, and drastically.

> So we're FINALLY going to get our jet-cars? 

Sure just look at CT, air rafts are TL 8. :)

>  Can I have mine in teal, with gold pinstriping?

I would like two please: one in teal, with black pinstriping and one in
black, with teal pinstriping.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:18:35 +0000 (GMT)
From: David John Yeardly <djy@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #129

Hi,
    On IFF i can remember Ships names been found from Iff codes in
Exercise areas.  IFF codes proberbly identify the vestle as well asa
giving recognition signals for large vesles so firing on a "frendly"
warship acidently is less likely.  Visual chalanges ere changed every 15
mins last time i used them on exercise with the RNR.

    To D. Berry
       Any perticular python scetch you quoted before shooting,  the "dead
Parrot Scetch" perhaps

     Dave y

     p2  BT AD28 K

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:28:40 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Military roleplaying

> 
> "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> 
> >My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
> >Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or you
> >are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most MT
> >campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.
>

The problem with playing military with "few options" is a direct result
of poor knowledge of what it is like to be in a military.  Players need
to want to be a captain of a starship or a Marine Force Commander. To do
it right they need to study and learn, as command skills do not come
easily.

There actually is a lot to do in miliitry adventuring, and some major
issues can be explored through Traveller military actions that are not
able to be done by the small fry.

These include addressing the basic ideological structures in Trav, such
as nobless oblige and the concepts of duty and honor to the structure of
the Imperium itself.

From my point of view, mil roleplaying involves immense detailing of the
traditions and customs of Imperial Forces, detatiled characterizations
of hundreds of NPC's, and an overall idea of how militray chain of
coammand should work.

For instance, although the PC's, playing crew on a ship, may be given
orders detailing a mission from the Admiralty, this doesn't prevent
players from playing most types of characters.  Even trashballs can
reside in the Imperial Forces, and generally make the universe a more
interesting place to live in.  (Even if they do not get promoted.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:23:05 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

[snipage]

>I question your comment about the military justifying their actions on 
>a
>religious basis.  At least in the US Army, we did what we did because 
>we
>had volunteered, and were subject to orders.
>I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier. 

[snipage]

If you want to use our Earth as a basis for the use of Religon in the
military I think overall there is much to look at.  The divisions among
the people in Bosnia started based on religous differences.  The
conflicts in Ireland.  Muslim terroists in the Middle East.  In the U.S.
we don't go to war with guns over religon but there certainly are come
heated debates over differences that spill over into the political arena;
abortion, homosexual issues, death penalty, education, etc.

In the military like any large group you will have the few devout, the
few atheists, and then the majority of uninformed/unsure/confused.

In the Traveller universe I compare the Imperium somewhat to the Roman
Empire.  Therefore depending on the beliefs of the leadership, there
could be religous groups that are persecuted, there could be wars over
religous reasons, there could be an established Imperial religon and the
outlawing of anyone who didn't subscribe to it.  Many interesting
scenarios for players who enjoy that type atmosphere.

Outside of the Imperium some alien races could be very devout/fanatical
about there religous beliefs and use it as a reason to do any number of
things like take over other planets etc.  More interesting scenarios. 
Remember Middle East terrorists who for their beliefs would drive a bus
filled with explosives into a building?

My conclusion is that the inclusion of religon in the military would add
flavor and many interesting scenarios to the game.

Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:46:47 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Harold D. Hale wrote:


>   All you have to do is take one look in a Marine tactics manual and see
>that to be a good Marine you must be an extremist and *very* dangerous.

When it comes to defense, I say the more the merrier.  The more extreme and
dangerous men and women like them we have around, the safer I feel.  Ob
Traveller:  ditto.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 05:51:56 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Dave Golden wrote:


>[Making the IFF key change]
> Doesn't have to be manually. You could be given a datacrystal
>with the next 6 cryptoperiod's keys, automatically changed by
>software...

This makes sense, especially if you are dodging bad guys.  Then instead of a
couple of minutes that you could be out of sinc, it's only a couple of
microseconds at most.

On a personal note, all you guys who have put it all on the line (weather in
the air, on the ground or at sea) have my respect and thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:25:15 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Dead Eye wrote:

>Greg Smith wrote:

>> Do you still train pilots on recognizing silhouettes?
>> How 'bout the air defense artillery guys?
>
>Yeah, but we actually use photos of the aircraft.  US and newer Russian
>birds look a lot alike.  So do Blackhawks and Hind D's.  But not that
>much alike.  Personal opinion:those guys(the fighter jocks) should have
>been shot.  If I had done that I couldn't live with myself, and would
>welcome death.  But I'm just a bomber puke(read target.)

Why?  They were following orders.  They used the best intelligence they had
at their disposal.  If you are ever faced with that situation, I hope you
will remember that you are not their because YOU want to be.  You are only
an instrument of your government.  Don't they still call you guys GI's?  I
don't need to remind you that means Government Issue.  In war or in
excercise, you are not your own.  You belong to the government.

I would hope that they [the aviators] would be like the only survivor of the
Hiroshama and Nagasaki runs, who sometime back said, "I feel bad about all
the people who died, but we were at war."  And continued with someting like,
"I take some consolation from the millions who didn't have to die in the
prolonged battle that would have been required to subdue the Japanese
otherwise."

In times of war there will be colateral damage.  It happens, you try to
avoid it as much as possible, but it happens.  If you can't live with the
consequenses of your actions, then like the rest of the two crews, you
either go crazy or kill yourself.  If you remember that the government
orders your actions, then living with the consequenses of those orders will
be easier.

And, lay off the aviators, they were just doing their jobs.

>> > IFF in those days was what it looked like.  You pretty much knew that a
>> P51D (Mustang) was not an enemy!  And I'm sure that the other side did
>> the same thing.  We have systems in place now because of the ranges and
>> capabilities of our weapons systems.  As you stretch the ranges out even
>> further, it becomes more critical to have a positive ID.
>>
>One of my older friends was a Mustang driver in the Pacific during the
>Deuce.  The US invented IFF during WWII, something I didn't know about.
>Realistically we had better find a near fullproof way to ID in combat
>because it is just getting worse.

Actually, if you compare fratricides per aircraft involved, you will find
its getting better not worse.  There are just more birds in the air and
better coverage of what goes on over there.  The raw numbers keep going up,
just as the number of planes keep going up, but the scaled numbers show that
it's safer (at least from friendly fire) today than it ever has been.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:37:18 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))

>Yeah....nothing like killin your buds.
>
>Sometimes I wonder if people really understand the ramifications of
>these things, even though I was there and know how fast it all was
>moving.
>
>Unfortunatly sorrow isn't enough to bring them back.  They can join the
>hundreds (or thousands) of our own we've scratched by mistake keeping
>the world "safe for free trade" over the last 45 years.

Freedom isn't free!  It's paid for with the blood of patriots!*  Men (and
women) have been paying that price since time immemorial.  Yes, some of them
were accidentally killed by their own, but you make their sacrifice less by
the way you talk about it.

We have records of friendly kills dating back BC (BCE).  But they gave their
lives for the good of all who sent them.  I couldn't stand the way the
returnees after 'Nam were treated, and I can't stand the way this subject is
being treated.  For everyone who's not happy with my responses to what is
written in this vein, there will be a dozen who agree, but just didn't say
anything.

If I've misjudged your intent, the I apologize in advance and know that you
will understand my ire.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:39:25 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

>Hmmmm...I seem to remember a rather striking picture of nickel atoms
>spelling out "I B M" a year or two back....rather stable snowstorm, that.
>;-)
>
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group

Not really nanotech those IBM letters right? It's akin to saying "We can
build Babbages Difference engine because we can make iron".

Drexlers major critisizers are commonly chemists, physical chemsists and
his proponents are generally engineers, computer scientists and dopeheads.
The problem lies within Drexlers picture of atoms as things that you can
pick up and place somewhere. I have a small discussion about these things
with comments from both sides in my Pilot and if anybody want it I can
probably convert it back to ascii and send it by private e-mail.

I've bought Drexlers second book on the subject (not Engines of creation)
which is supposed to deal with thermal stability, quantum uncertainty,
cooling, diffusion etc but as far as I can tell he picks and chooses from
the natural laws as he pleases. Each problem is dealt with in isolation
from the other ones but a generally interesting read despite this as some
of the things in it actually seem to work.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:42:44 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying (Long)

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
>>
[some editing]
>There actually is a lot to do in miliitry adventuring, and some major
>issues can be explored through Traveller military actions that are >not 
able to be done by the small fry.
>
>These include addressing the basic ideological structures in Trav, 
>such as nobless oblige and the concepts of duty and honor to the 
>structure of the Imperium itself.
>
>From my point of view, mil roleplaying involves immense detailing of 
>the traditions and customs of Imperial Forces, detatiled 
>characterizations of hundreds of NPC's, and an overall idea of how 
>militray chain of coammand should work.
>
>For instance, although the PC's, playing crew on a ship, may be given
>orders detailing a mission from the Admiralty, this doesn't prevent
>players from playing most types of characters.  
>

From the perspective of a Marine...

Deadeye I believe is correct.  There is a lot that can be done if you 
are playing within the military, and not just in a time of war.  Besides 
all the interesting things that could be done with some interservice 
rivalry (we have it here and some of us are no longer even IN the 
military!) while on liberty, shore leave, etc. the real benefits come 
from detatched duty type operations.

Deadeye flies B-52s RT.  It's hard to go adventuring with a B-52.  I was 
part of a Battalion Landing Team (a MEU) that was in the Med during the 
time that the TWA aircraft was highjacked.  We followed the aircraft 
around the Med as it moved from country to country, finally heading to 
Beiruit.  We dusted off the plans for a landing and taking up of 
positions at the Airport again, just like the same MEU had done 2 years 
before.  That kind of mission would be great if you were the commmand 
staff of the MEU or the Naval force to which attached.

Or better, Granada.  The MEU was on a mission to Beiruit, but ended up 
doing a couple of landings "on the way".  No extra stuff, just because 
they were there (or could be there easily).

Or even better, the Barbary Pirates and Lt Presley O'Bannon.  A ship on 
independent duty landed its contingent of Marines to bring the priracy 
(shudder--don't even think of starting that thread again) problem under 
control.  In the absence of orders from the rear, he took the matter 
into his own hands and prosecuted a campaign to successful conclusion.

An Imperial Naval task force has all kinds of missions, and the 
commander has all kinds of power, much like the USN today.  A party of 
Special Forces could be given under cover missions, along the lines of 
"A Clear and Present Danger".  And you would have some really heavy duty 
fire power you could call in if you needed it!  I recall "The Boys in 
Company C" when they wanted to let of some steam called in an air strike 
of napalm onto a hill, just for the hell of it.

I think the military allows for all kinds of missions and adventures, to 
include being busted, promoted, cashiered out, retired.....  And then 
you can start your Traveller career!

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:23:44 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Rob Prior, What's With Your E-Mail?

>Rob, TravLang has been getting sporadic bounces on your
>subscription; not all messages fail, but some do.  Your address
>is on the TravLang records as Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca; is this
>correct?

That's correct.

Our email system has been thoroughly fornicated, and the silly buggers
were running without a backup so I've lost everything I had stored online
(not just email, but files, software, etc.).  I'm still not receiving
TravLang - and haven't been able to get HIWG and TravTech since we
switched from Mac to Windows in November!

I'm in the process of getting my own email account through Bell Canada
(who has an impressive service record).  I'm just trying to negotiate some
form of cost recovery, as I'll be using it mostly for work stuff anyway. 
(You chaps have, by the way, been showing up in many lessons on the
Internet.  My kids now know what a near-c Virus-infested rock means!!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:57:56 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Laser Comms

>My (never-quite-completed) 21st-century first Jump exploration ship has a
>(non-grav-focus) comm laser designed to let it talk back to Earth from
>36 parsecs away (worst-case misjump); that makes a reasonable weapon.
>
>Bruce

They probably didn't know about maximum misjump ranges when they built the
first exploratory ships so I'd say 36 pc is a tad overkill.

Then of course this could come from the "fact" that it was a UN science
project where armament and military force are prohibited. The US delegates
threatened to withdraw their funding unless the ship was armed and the
Japanese would withdraw theirs if it was. An agreement was finally reached
when the Pakistani chairman of the UN science program defined the pulse
laser as a "communications device" whereupon the US agreed and after some
diplomatic screaming and yelling the japs did too.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:23:02 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Chamax and the Shriekers

Robert Eaglestone  writes:
>> Double Adventure 5: The Chamax Plague concerns the planet of
>> a possibly extinct race of intelligent spacefaring crustaceans.
[snip]
>> Adventure 10: Safari Ship, concerns the search for a beautiful
>> animal, and may lead to the discovery of another intelligent
>> race, which never reached above TL3 or so.  This race is well
>> described, with tables for character generation et al.
>
>> My design is to make these two species the same.


The Shriekers aren't crustaceans, though.  Well described, nicely done,
but not crustaceans.

You'd change the Chamax critters, with the nasty 'plague' animals being
another species.  

It's a doable idea.  I'm not certain why you'd want to make the change,
but suspect it is part of a long-term plot-line you're developing.  Care
to fill us in?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:34:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Patriotism

>Freedom isn't free!  It's paid for with the blood of patriots!*  Men (and
>women) have been paying that price since time immemorial.  Yes, some of them
>were accidentally killed by their own, but you make their sacrifice less by
>the way you talk about it.

What the hell has this to do with traveller?
Please take this patriotism thing to private e-mail (and exclude me), or
better yet, discuss why people in general in 3I join the military/navy or
refrain from doing so. Citizenships, babes, adventure, see tha galaxy for
free etc? It would also be interesting to discuss all those resistance
groups that will pop up to fight the 3I. They'd probably be all idealistic,
freedom loving adrenalin junkies who when treated with the might of the 3Is
warmachine would soon start on the terrrorist trail.

What is the history of the Ine Givar (they have backing from Zhodani but
resistance gruoups tend to spring up from some just causes. What terribel
unjustice from the 3I started the Ine Givar? Where they present during the
M0?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:32:42 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Jump Space

Douglas Glatz wrote:

[snip]
>he could shave off two days, but he wouldn't ride in the ship then...they
>decided to pass).  The other, more serious side effect is that the computer can
>no longer adequately run the jump cycle.  It requires constant (7x24)
>supervision by the engineer (which my PC found out the hard way - fortunately,
>he had a large supply of 'speeders' to keep him awake the first time he tried

Shame!  Shame!  Junkie fiend!  You think role-playing drug abuse is FUNNY,
dontcha!  What about all the FAMILY VALUES that T4 is dedicated to?  I've
just about had it with you lowlife liberals cluttering up the list.  Why
don't you just all go back to demonic training programs like D&D?
Please????

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
Lair of the PMPP: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/sayat.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:34:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: What accents do you use...

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> >Playing Traveller in German Language clearly changes this little. You've
> >got also a broad variety of dialects in this land, one being specific to
> >the city of Cologne I come from. But I hate it. There are not much
> >dialects I like. So I tend more to accents of other languages.
> 
> I, for one, would like to hear more about what accents you've used in
> Traveller games to represent different national/ethnic groups.

I have to confess, I did not yet use very much of it by now, as I am not
playing that long and my group did not wander far from Regina. But I will
tell you when things change. This post gave me some new inspiration.

L.A.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #130
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 10 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 131



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders
Re: Starship Economics
Re: Military roleplaying
Re: What accents do you use...
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Chamax and the Shriekers
Re: Patriotism 
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Bat...
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
System Defense Boats
No expects the Version Inquisition! (was RE: GURPS Traveller)
Re: Starship Economics
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Jump Bomb
Re: Patriotism
Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))
Re: Marine Bashing
Re: Patriotism
Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))
Re: Patriotism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:17:17 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders

deadeye@ebicom.net writes:
>
>Unfortunatly sorrow isn't enough to bring them back.  They can join the
>
>hundreds (or thousands) of our own we've scratched by mistake keeping
>
>the world "safe for free trade" over the last 45 years.

Thousands, easily.  Up to millions if you count civilian deaths, although
how much of that was 'accidental' and how much was deliberate is a matter
for debate, and the numbers change if you include/exclude "bystanders".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:38:25 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> PASSENGERS                      CARGO
> UWP     Available at Sourceworld        UWP     Available at Sourceworld
>         Pop     High    Mid     Low     Pop     Major   Minor   Incidental
>         0       ---     ---     ---     0       ---     ---     ---
>         1       ---     1D-2    2D-6    1       ---     1D-2    2D-6
>         2       1D-1D   1D      2D      2       1D-1D   1D      2D
>         Cargo and Passenger Availability: Roll once per week; unused cargoes and
> uncarried passengers do not accumulate.
>
>  TRADE & COMMERCE
> Carrying cargoes and freight between worlds is the foundation of interstellar
> commerce.
> DMs for Marketworld: If Population 4-: -3. If Population 8-: +3. If Red Zone:
> -12 (no middle or low passengers; no freight); if Amber Zone: -6 (no major
> freight). Tech Level: Add (or subtract) difference between Sourceworld and
> Marketworld tech levels.
> Skills influence Passenger Availability: DM + Carousing for High; DM +Admin;
> DM + Streetwise for Low.
> Skills influence Cargo Availability. DM + Trader for all cargoes.

Now, here's a question. The above chart looks, IIRC, just like the one in the MT rules.In those rules, it's not clear exactly how
much cargo you find.

If freight is defined as goods you haul for a price (Cr1000/ton per jump), and cargo is defined as something you buy and hope to sell
later at a profit, where in the above table is the roll for cargo? I realized that the table uses the 'CARGO' header, but it's really
talking about freight, no?

I've adopted a house rule that says that the Major column is used for both cargo and major freight. What are your thoughts?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:14:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:

> The problem with playing military with "few options" is a direct result
> of poor knowledge of what it is like to be in a military.  Players need
> to want to be a captain of a starship or a Marine Force Commander. To do
> it right they need to study and learn, as command skills do not come
> easily.

This fits to a problem of mine. Perhaps someone could advise me.
I am planning an adventure setting in which my characters (a very mixed 
group) get involved into a maneuver game (kind of high-tech Gotcha!) While
the military players go into the field, the others could stay in the
central and observe the game - and some other things.

Goal for the players is not to win the game, but to stay in it and protect
one of the combatants from being assassinated! (This is a kind of
'Dreampark' setting, I see at this moment ...)

Now my problem is: I have never been to any military service, so I don't
have any experience with this (unlike some of my players). That's why my
campaign gets more civilian in apperance. But I want the players to get
their fights here and then, and this could be a way to test the whole
combat system without a big risk.

Can someone give me a hint or two what I have to look at when conducting a
maneuver and what is not so important?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:00:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: What accents do you use...

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> To do Vargr, I keep my tongue pressed against my lower front teeth.  This
> slurs some vowels nicely, and gives a nice feel to the speech.  Also, I
> make sure that right after heavy exertion, my Vargr on speak in short, one
> of two word burst to cover the reflexive panting.
> 
> "Human!  How much"<pause>"For the red white and orange 'Dreadnaughts'
> jacket?"<pause>"Ring it up!" *manical laughter*

I think I'll try this one with my next Vargr. Do you also make the 'r's to
hard 'ch's or roll them? ("I am frrom Gvurrdon sectorr.")

> Aslan tend not to speak much, and then are extraordinarily polite.  I am
> very creful with gender forms.  I also roll everything when doing Aslan. 
> 
> "Good morrrrinnng, Kepperrrr of this storrre, I wish to purrchase a
> quuanity of Dustspice."                                 
                                                          ^^^^
And then again, the catlike 'iouw's. Sorry, couldn't resist.

> The last real development I've done is the Zaibonese, who are abrut, rude,
> and to the point.  They also drop any form of speech that is ineffcient.
> Any overly verbose individual will get a "Wasting Oxy" and be ignored.
> 
> "You. Needs buy, Howmuch?"

That reminds me of an own rule in our fantasy campaigns: if a player
character is foreign, the linguistics skill shows the maximum of syllables
the words used may have ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:47:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
>Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or you
>are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most MT
>campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.

Yes you're right there. When I read MT i think about DGP stuff which IMHO
was the golden years of Traveller but the actual setting could only be of
interest to High Guard TCS people. I use the MT setting (currently at 1120)
as a backdrop for my mostly civilian Spinward marches campaign.

TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the
portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT). I couldn't
figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in space".

The rules were the best ever though.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:51:05 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Chamax and the Shriekers

Steven Charlton wrote:

>Robert Eaglestone asked, while trying to justify making the Chamax aliens
>the same as the sapients from Safari,
>"Does anyone have any ideas?"
>
>Oooh, good one!  Actually an answer is in front of you already.  We know
>from Chamax Plague that the hapless Chamaxi had spacefaring capability (but
>not Jump Drive), and were forced to build a fleet of sublight ships to flee
>the bugs.  Who is to say that they did not attempt an earlier sublight
>colony effort?  Or that one of the escaping colony vessels was of a
>somewhat better design and was able to achive a greater % of C, and so got
>them to the Safari world a few hundred years before the rest of the fleet
>reached its targets.

Except that the Shriekers had, on _their_ home planet, a big old global
empire dating back something like a hundred thousand years, with
archeological remains waiting to be found by the intrepid adventurers, etc.
They've been there a _long_ time.

>In fact, the one good escape vessel might have been a colony vessel under
>construction before the bug plague was discovered.  The Chamaxi had to cut
>a lot of corners and go for wimpier drives for the rest of the escape
>fleet, but they had one vessel that was larger and faster, and which
>perhaps left a few years earlier.

Unless you rewrite the Shrieker background as it was published, the
timeline for this really doesn't work.  Of course, you could turn it
around: the Shriekers long, long, _long_ ago actually had spaceflight and
settled the Chamax system.  Maybe the Y-man noticed and smote 'em back into
the stone age?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:03:31 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Patriotism 

"Richard A. Flores" wrote:
>
>Freedom isn't free!  It's paid for with the blood of patriots!  Men 
>(and women) have been paying that price since time immemorial.  Yes, 
>some of them were accidentally killed by their own, but you make >their 
sacrifice less by the way you talk about it.
[snip]
>If I've misjudged your intent, the I apologize in advance and know 
>that you will understand my ire.

In light of this discussion, I just received this (from my work) and 
thought it appropriate to include....  I think Senator John Glenn's 
words sum up how we all feel on this list, regardless of which country 
we may call home....


Subject:	FW: The Soldier


HOOAH!

FYI to all. 

Powerful interchange between now Sen Glenn and the guy
he beat back in 74.  Would like to have been a fly on the wall
during this exchange.  Pretty impressive impromptu speech!  He's OK to 
fly into space one last time as far as I'm concerned. 

- ----------------------------------- 

May 3,1974 Ohio Senate Democratic primary. Howard Metzenbaum to
John Glenn:  "How can you run for Senate when you've never held a 
'job'?"

Glenn:  "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps. I was 
through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by
anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. 

"I was in the space program. It wasn't my checkbook, it was my life
that was on the line. This was not a 9 to 5 job where I took time
off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank. I ask you to go with
me... as I went the other day to a Veterans Hospital and look those men 
with their mangled bodies in the eye and tell them they didn't hold a 
job. You go with me to any Gold Star mother, and you look her in the eye 
and tell her that her son did not hold a job.

"You go with me to the space program, and you go as I have gone
to the widows and the orphans of Ed White and Gus Grissom and Roger 
Chaffee, and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their
dad didn't hold a job.

"You go with me on Memorial Day coming up, and you stand on
Arlington National Cemetery- where I have more friends than I like
to remember- and you watch those waving flags, and you stand there,
and you think about this nation, and you tell me that those people 
didn't have a job 

"I tell you, Howard Metzenbaum, you should be on your knees every
day of your life thanking God that there were some men- SOME MEN-who
held a job. And they required a dedication to purpose and a love of 
country and a dedication to duty that was more important than life
itself.  And their self-sacrifice is what has made this
country possible... I HAVE HELD A JOB, HOWARD!"

- ---------------

Semper Fidelis to all.  

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:26:35 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid

>Unfortunatly sorrow isn't enough to bring them back.  They can join the
>hundreds (or thousands) of our own we've scratched by mistake keeping
>the world "safe for free trade" over the last 45 years.

On the other hand, you have to wonder how many people that safegaurds like
this save who would be dead without them...

Those kind of figures are never seen (with good reason, because they're
hypothetical).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:35:10 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

>And, lay off the aviators, they were just doing their jobs.

Where have I heard that one before?

NB:  I think that in this situation it was an unfortunate occurence.  I think
that the pilots were acting correctly and were in the "right".  But, that
statement just always reminds me of "Mother Night" by Kurt Vonnegut and the
real situation that a certain section of the book was based on.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:40:55 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Bat...

>We have records of friendly kills dating back BC (BCE).  But they gave their
>lives for the good of all who sent them.  I couldn't stand the way the
>returnees after 'Nam were treated, and I can't stand the way this subject is
>being treated.  For everyone who's not happy with my responses to what is
>written in this vein, there will be a dozen who agree, but just didn't say
>anything.

I do agree, the way the guys who came back from Vietnam were treated was
atrocious.  My father is a Vietnam vet and he had more problems with the way
his own government treated him, and the thousands of others, who live with the
complications caused by Agent Orange.

Just wanted to put this into perspective.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:18:11 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

>I couldn't agree more.  I mean, of course our predecessors around the year
>998 C.E. failed to forsee the shape of even 500 years of their future, but
>then they weren't as smart and practical as we are.  Our masturbatory
>fantasies about _our_ next thousand years are, on the contrary, all going
>to come true.

I personally hope that the fantasies from the 50s come true.  Silver jumpsuits
are pretty damn cool.

What does C.E. mean?

Semo

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 1998 11:43 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: System Defense Boats

How many types of SDBs might there be?

I always pictured 400-ton beasties bristling with missiles and lasers.

However, RSpake2064 mentioned the fighter-carrying corvette, and
immediately I pictured a Mercenary cruiser with 4 fighters a la
Broadsword, or a 1000-ton fighter carrier.  Does this make economic
sense for system defense, or is it better to churn out merchant-sized
patrol ships?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:46:24 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: No expects the Version Inquisition! (was RE: GURPS Traveller)

Senor Mooney:
> TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> >   IMNSHO, TNE was the ONLY version of Traveller to have any kind of
Vision
> >behind it.  Any kind of story to tell.  A general revamping to a more
> >popular
> >(at the time) rules set and a consistent ground-up system didn't hurt
either.
> <jump at flamebait>
> Definitely IYNSHO.
> And I always thought that MT had quite a serious, somewhat more
believeable
> plotline behind it.
> </jump at flamebait>

Dom, you shouldn't take every piece of bait, and you don't.  ;-)  You waited
for something this juicy and ripe for the Incinerator(tm) man-portable
flamer unit.  Funny, we were just discussing this very topic in during the
hour-long carpool/commute this morning...

Isn't it amazing what other people will "believe?"  What were Clinton's
approval ratings this morning?  Sheesh kabobs.  *snicker*

CT was great, when I was 12.  MegaTraveller/Rebellion Era was outstanding
(still the best art around even if the rules blew orphaned llama).  TNE was
*sigh*.  TNE did have some of the most moving quotes, though ("To absent
friends" will always cause my eyes to leak - apologies to Mork).  T4 is
pretty good, considering, and we play it -- just because.  But overall
HARDTIMES was the most fun, most morally challenging, and the best
Travelling we ever did (with CT rules).

<Engage halon dispersal system!!!>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:51:54 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

Erwin Fritz wrote:

<snipped cargo availability table supplied by Marc>

>Now, here's a question. The above chart looks, IIRC, just like the one in
the MT rules.In those rules, it's not clear exactly how
>much cargo you find.

The number rolled is the amount in tons.

>If freight is defined as goods you haul for a price (Cr1000/ton per jump),
and cargo is defined as something you buy and hope to sell
>later at a profit, where in the above table is the roll for cargo? I
realized that the table uses the 'CARGO' header, but it's really
>talking about freight, no?

I don't recognize your terms (Traveller wise).  If they were used in any
thing but CT & T4 then I missed them.  In those 2 cargo is what you call
freight.  You ship it for someone else at a profit.  Speculative Cargo is
what you call cargo.  It's something you buy and ship with the hopes of
making a profit.

>I've adopted a house rule that says that the Major column is used for both
cargo and major freight. What are your thoughts?

We always just allowed the captain to buy all he wants.  I've been to
manufacturers and they usually don't have any kind of limit to how much you
can buy.  No a limit that would mean anything to a free trader captain
anyway.

[open with the free trader captain being escorted into the president's
office by a smartly dressed account representative]
AR:  "If you gentlemen will excuse me...
[the account representative closes the door]
FTC:  "It's like I was asking your Rep, 'What is the maximum tonnage of
computer parts I can buy?'"
CEO:  "What kind of time frame are we looking at?"
FTC:  "I would like to make a purchase today or tomorrow so we can get in
loaded by Thursday and lift off on Friday."
CEO:  "Well, let's see, IIRC, we have about 5,000 tons on hand.  Will that
do?"
FTC: [looking embarrassed]  "Errr, I,  ummm, we only have 123 tons of space.
What kind of deal can you make me?"
CEO:  [turns to intercom]  "Chanan, will you escort Mr. Hotshot back to...
[fade on the free trader captain looking for some place to hide in shame]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:05:31 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

"Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net> writes:
>Why?  They were following orders.  They used the best intelligence they
>had
>at their disposal.  If you are ever faced with that situation, I hope you
>will remember that you are not their because YOU want to be.  You are only
>an instrument of your government.  Don't they still call you guys GI's?  I
>don't need to remind you that means Government Issue.  In war or in
>excercise, you are not your own.  You belong to the government.

- ------

Well, there are certain orders that you shouldn't follow, both morally and
legally (at least since Nurenburg).  

Plenty of real-world examples to choose from, so I'm not going to list
them. besides, this could get really contentious. Anyone desperately
wanting to discuss this is invited to email me privately.

Also read some of Bujold's Vorkosigan novels for interesting moral
dilemnas (and a good read too).  

OvTrav: Look at the all those Black War operations in MegaTraveller. Put
your players in one of those, and leave them the moral choice.  Or what
about some of the Imperium's practices (from Milieu 0)?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:11:31 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Jump Bomb

Mike Koehne wrote:

> Easy to detect if the shipping line is looking for it, pretty
expensive for a bomb - but it won't look like a bomb unless their
security people are expecting it. It could even ship quite innocuosly as
a Scout/Courier being delivered as cargo.

	and will cause 2d20 major damage in the cargo hold. A bit expensive
	as we can have the same thing with explosive fertilisers, you can
	even declare them as such.

Are there rules for turning on a jump field inside a running jump field that state how much damage is caused? I'm basing my idea on jump space research from CT or MT (can't remember which) that mentioned an experiment where they launched a jump-capable ship from a carrier that was in jump space (never saw it again) and another experiment where they built a ship with two jump drives - the second one activated while in jump space (very dangerous misjump).

The idea behind this "Jump Bomb" isn't to cause explosion damage, but to cause a catastrophic misjump - that's why you time to it go off after the huge bulk cargo carrier has entered jump space. Can your jump drive compensate in time if a small and highly unstable jump field forms inside your big and stable jump field...

Walt Smith
- ----------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:17:59 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patriotism

>>Freedom isn't free!  It's paid for with the blood of patriots!*  Men (and
>>women) have been paying that price since time immemorial.  Yes, some of them
>>were accidentally killed by their own, but you make their sacrifice less by
>>the way you talk about it.
>
>>What the hell has this to do with traveller?

Probably in that they are feelings brought about by a response that someone
had posted having to do with IFF systems in Traveller.  I'm not going to speak
for Cybernot here, but, that seems to be the way that the thread had run.  I'm
sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I personally think that people have their fingers on the "off topic" button
way too quickly on this list.  I can understand it to an extent, but I've only
seen one time when the complaints were somewhat warranted (during the dark and
dismal period when Starship Troopers was released and everybody needed to have
their say).  It manifests itself in other ways too (when some people got tired
of the economics/piracy thread, which had very much to do with Traveller, a
number of people attacked it and tried to snub it, because although it was
Traveller, nobody cared).

Its not like this list is constantly off topic and needs to be herded back all
of the time.  The people here are here because they like Traveller, and they
like to discuss Traveller.  Since Traveller (like any RPG) can deal with
topics that are like those in the real world, then discussion about things in
the real world will sometimes seep in.  That's the way that discussions go
sometimes.

I didn't see you immediately leap to ask about how a question about NASA's
launch schedule was off topic, nor how the discussion on nanotech and sci-fi
books related to it were off topic.  Although both (and the message that
sparked your response) were off topic, they're not entirely off-topic because
it just so happens that many people who like Traveller like alot of the same
things, or have had similar experiences.  

Sorry if this message seems to be an over reaction, but its just one of those
things that really makes my blood boil.

Now, back on the topic of the game Traveller:

>Citizenships, babes, adventure, see tha galaxy for
>free etc? It would also be interesting to discuss all those resistance
>groups that will pop up to fight the 3I. They'd probably be all idealistic,
>freedom loving adrenalin junkies who when treated with the might of the 3Is
>warmachine would soon start on the terrrorist trail.

I recently seriously considered joining the United States Army.  My own
reasons were at first not babes or adventure but, money, money for college,
and experience in the electronics field.  When I began to seriously think
about it, patriotism and the willingness to die for my country entered the
picture and it became the overwhelming reason to join or not join.  I didn't
end up joining for several reasons that I'm not going to discuss because they
are so vastly off topic that I wouldn't be able to rectify them in any way
with Traveller.

The way I play my Third Imperium, I think that adventure would be a strong
reason for joining the military.  In the subsector I run my game in there are
billions of people who will never, ever set foot off of their own planets.  I
think that there'd be a good number of "Luke Skywalkers" out there who are
just dying to be more than they could be on the surfaces of their homeworlds.
My Imperium is also played a little more cynically then the classic Traveller
canon universe, so I think that money is another reason, as are the
opportunities for schooling and hands-on experience are also strong
motivators.  Personally, I would consider joining the Impies if it meant I
could have my hands on the absolute highest technology on a daily basis.

I think that resistance groups would be more then freedom loving adrenaline
freaks in many cases.  Again, I play my Imperium a little more cynically, so
resistance groups would in many cases be either idealists, but there'd be a
fair number who are realists.  Some of it has to do with the ways that people
play the government type "Feudal Technocracy".  Personally, I play it that
this government type is ruled directly by the Imperium's Feudal system.  Not
sure if this is "canon" or not, but it works for me.  Some of these planets
could have been thousands of years old, and had other governments that the
people liked better.  As an example, imagine if the Imperium stopped by earth
today and said, "we have bigger guns, more powerful electronics, and really
big PAWs on our ships, and we're going to drop off a noble and some 'security
forces' because we feel your world would be better ruled by us.  Thanks for
your compliance."

There'd be plenty of reasons to resist the Imperium, and to resist their
bedpartners, the MegaCorporations, in addition to the tons and tons of
"efficient" dictatorships and religiously backed governments that restrict the
freedoms of their populaces on individual worlds...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:17:17 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> >Yeah....nothing like killin your buds.
> >
> >Sometimes I wonder if people really understand the ramifications of
> >these things, even though I was there and know how fast it all was
> >moving.
> >

> If I've misjudged your intent, the I apologize in advance and know that you
> will understand my ire.


Actually, I think you have, both he and I active duty military (we are bothers).
He's a USAF pilot, I'm a USN Line Officer and we are both very patriotic by
most standards.  We are just very exposed to why things happen in today's world
and reserve the right to be cynical about the things we are willing to die for.
But we are still willing to die for them.  Free trade is part of freedom, even
if I don't like the idea that Bill gates or somebody else who couldn't give
a rat's butt about me benefits from my death in combat or peacetime.  

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:18:38 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re: Marine Bashing

Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

...not without help I might add...
(Sorry to single you out Doug, but you made just too inviting a target.)

>>But you must remember that according to the late Department of the Army
>>official, we Marines are not connected to society, are extremists, and a
>>little dangerous!!!!!

>You also march funny, and need the Navy to do everything but chew your food
>for you.  :P

I refuse to even rise to the bait (Marines just don't), but just to let you
know we're out here...


Schoon
aka SSgt Schoonmaker
Det. 4th FoRecon Co. USMC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:07:28 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

Anders Backman asked:

>What the hell has this to do with traveller?

Well, Anders, you have a very good question there.  If you model your
Traveller campaign on real life, then perhaps you now have an excellent idea
for an NPC.  He doesn't brook any nonsense from those who would belittle the
fighting men and women of the Imperium (even accidentally).  He would rather
apologize for misconstruing the meaning of a fellow patriot, who will
understand his zeal than let a slight go unchallenged.  Even though he is
not (or is, your choice) fit for duty, he would rather risk his life and
honor than see his beloved Imperium besmirched by the small minded people he
is surrounded by.

Of course if you don't base your campaign on reality, then I guess it
doesn't have anything to do with Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:23:02 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))

Hi Richard,

I don't think you need to worry about this too much.  I think everybody
on the list has at least some respect for the sacrifices involved and
nobody intends to be disrespectful.  The written word can often convey
a different meaning that it is intended to if the words are written
hastily.  And yes, fratricide is one price of freedom, and those of
us who serve are willing to pay it.  Its just that we'd rather not 
unless we have to.  Those helo pilots desreved a better look by the
F15's, that's all deadeye is saying.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:30:16 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

> What is the history of the Ine Givar (they have backing from Zhodani but


Does anyone know anything about the Ine Givar other than their having
been a "pro Democracy" "pro-Zhodani" terrorist group c1106-1130
in the Spinward Marches?  I've always wondered about that.  Marc?

- -Dan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #131
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 10 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 132



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IFF it worked that way...
Dumarest Novels
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: GURPS Traveller
Volume Factors from Starships
Re: Patriotism
Re: Jump Bomb
Re: Drawing questions (Jump drive grid)
RE: Military Chaplans?
What CE means
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Starship Economics
Shriekers and Chamax
Re: Communist Writings in Sayat
Re: What CE means

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:33:14 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

In a message dated 2/10/98 8:37:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, SemoFetus@aol.com
writes:

<< >And, lay off the aviators, they were just doing their jobs.
 
 Where have I heard that one before?
  >>

Ok, this one has WWWAAAAYYY to much flame potential in it.  I am quite sure
that the pilots involved have had thier lives thoroughly trashed because of
it, and have to live w/ the responsibility of thier actions forever.  And I
don't EVEN want to get into how they wouldn't have been there at all if we had
done it right the first time...

  It was an unfortunate accident (which happens in all walks of life) and
should be moved on past...out of respect for those who gave thier lives doing
what they thought was right, if for no other reason.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)
Former PFC, 72 MP Co.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:34:17 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Dumarest Novels

Hi Everybuggy,

In purchasing some lots of old books to aquire some books of the series, I
find myself with a few duplicates.

#4 - Kalin
#27 - Earth is Heaven
#28 - Melome

They weren't expensive, so if anyone is interested please contact me via
email (not the list).

Thanx,
Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:23:47 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid

Semo wrote:

>>Unfortunatly sorrow isn't enough to bring them back.  They can join the
>>hundreds (or thousands) of our own we've scratched by mistake keeping
>>the world "safe for free trade" over the last 45 years.
>
>On the other hand, you have to wonder how many people that safegaurds like
>this [IFF] save who would be dead without them...
>
>Those kind of figures are never seen (with good reason, because they're
>hypothetical).
>
That's why I prefer to check the fratricides vs. units in the air.  Because
that is not based on hypothetical figures.  And gives you a real perspective
on the effectiveness of modern technology.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:35:45 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

Semo wrote:

>I personally hope that the fantasies from the 50s come true.  Silver
jumpsuits
>are pretty damn cool.

Oh yeah.

>What does C.E. mean?

Common Era, it's used by those who don't want to acknowledge Christ with the
use of A.D. (Anno Domini, Medieval Latin for "in the year of the Lord") or
are afraid to offend those who don't want to.  B.C.E. is Before the Common
Era (B.C.).

FYI, medieval is a term used for the dark ages by those who don't want
people to think they were so bad.  We have all kinds of terms like this.
Weird, no?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:16:07 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Semo wrote:


>>And, lay off the aviators, they were just doing their jobs.
>
>Where have I heard that one before?
>
>NB:  I think that in this situation it was an unfortunate occurence.  I
think
>that the pilots were acting correctly and were in the "right".  But, that
>statement just always reminds me of "Mother Night" by Kurt Vonnegut and the
>real situation that a certain section of the book was based on.

I thought it was original.  In fact it was original.  I've never read
"Mother Night".  IIRC, the last thing I read by Vonnegut turned my stomach.
My apologies for any inadvertent connection to any unpleasantness.  I'm
assuming you weren't thrilled with "Mother Night".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:46:52 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
>focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
>kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the
>portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
>Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT). I couldn't
>figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in space".

There were scenarios between the lines for those GMs willing to put a little
work into the game.  When the characters were rolled up for my TNE campaign a
few years back, I tried to build the adventure around them.  One of the PCs
had chosen the "Rebel" archetype, and was unable to attend to first actual
gameplaying session.

The adventure I had built had him at the center, and was written without him
being able to play (I am very proud of it now).  One of the secondary worlds
in a nearby system had been an hunting-preserve run by a corporation, it had
many of the most dangerous creatures and animals from throughout the Imperium.
The Imperium had gotten a small parcel of land an set up a prison on this
planet before the collapse.  The dangerous beasties had served to discourage
any escape attempts.  After the collapse, the prison used prisoners as slave
labor to mine high-priced radioactives from the mountains of the world, while
bartering with traders.  The traders would bring 'slaves' to the planet, and
use them to barter for the radioactives.

The rebel character had been...  ahem...  funded by the Aubani and was part of
a "secret war" against Oriflamme.  He was captured after a bomb he planted had
killed a number of Oriflammen marines.  Since the political situation was so
tight, he was to be shipped back to Oriflamme as "cargo" on an apparently
normal trader, while the ship that supposedly held him went on ahead a few
days before.

Pirates hit the ship, and took the crew and him as prisoners, and eventually
bartered him for radioactives.  The team had to hit the prison and free him,
as Oriflamme wanted him to be put on trial and killed, and the Aubani wanted
him back since he was useful to their cause, they were loyal to him, and were
afraid he'd spill the beans if they took no action to free him...

But there was alot of political maneuvering to deal with (for a good GM) with
a group of worlds pulling in different directions for different reasons.
Although this was a "seal team" mission, there was enough underneath it all
that could be fun to deal with.  Their second mission considered finding the
location of the targetting bases for the deep meson gun on another planet and
was entirely undercover.  More of a James Bond type of thing rather than a
"seal team" type thing.  They eventually failed and were tortured for
information in a very nasty prison.  They were saved later, and eventually, by
the time the campaign ended, had discovered a jump-gate left by an ancient and
enigmatic race and gone through it.

There was more to the system then just seal team missions, but the game
mechanics were so geared towards a military setting that it was tough to
figure out what else the players could do.  I never got the impression you
did, however, that all of the traders were stereotyped as bad guys.  There
were guilded traders, and free traders, and then the traders in between.  In
fact, one of the players in the group had wanted to settle down into the life
of a trader after his service with the scouts was finished.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:46:56 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Volume Factors from Starships

     Hello all,

Does anyone know how the Volume factors for each hull type was arrived at for
T4 Starships (SSDS)?  I am trying to scale up the hull sizes to greater than
5000dt, and I am just wondering if thier is a formula or something that I
could use?  I am trying to avoid having to use the sequence in FF&S2...nothing
wrong w/ it, I am just one of the few people left in the world who can't
afford Excel!  Hoping to use SSDS to make some larger designs.  Anyway, if
anyone can help I'd surely appreciate it!

Thanks in advance,

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV7692aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:49:20 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patriotism

<concerning Glenn's speech>

all I can say is...

wow.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:53:50 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Bomb

Walt Smith wrote:


>Are there rules for turning on a jump field inside a running jump field
that state how much damage is caused? I'm basing my idea on jump space
research from CT or MT (can't remember which) that mentioned an experiment
where they launched a jump-capable ship from a carrier that was in jump
space (never saw it again) and another experiment where they built a ship
with two jump drives - the second one activated while in jump space (very
dangerous misjump).

None that I know of.
>
>The idea behind this "Jump Bomb" isn't to cause explosion damage, but to
cause a catastrophic misjump - that's why you time to it go off after the
huge bulk cargo carrier has entered jump space. Can your jump drive
compensate in time if a small and highly unstable jump field forms inside
your big and stable jump field...

Kinda reminds me of Star Trek (The Movie?) where the unstable worm hole
opens up and swallows the Enterprise.  Don't you know that would be fun.
Not.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:15:24 -0500
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Drawing questions (Jump drive grid)

>From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
>
>Do people have any strong views about how we might visualise the grids:
>
>1) the jump grid is lots of narrow (1 mm dia) wires over the surface of
>the ship.
>For this case, do these wires go "over" or "under" such
>fixtures as turrets, bays, sensor antennae, spinal mount openings,
>HEPLAR exhaust ports.  is there a maximum separation for the wires?
>Does this separation reduce with jump number?  If the wires go over
>other features, why bother to assign a surface area to them in FFS2?

The above interpretation is how I've always played it in the past, but I
think that this raises an issue concerning battle damage and it's effect on
the grid. If the grid covers the surface of the hull and all of its
fixtures, wouldn't ANY damage to the hull or ANY exterior fitting cause it
to fail? Or would the jump grid have enough "excess capacity" to be able to
sustain some damage and still function normally?

>2) the jump grid is mostly contained in a few area (say, near the fore
>and aft of the vessel, plus near the tips of wings, tailplanes) with
>half-a-dozen grid lines joining the key nodes.


I'm more inclined to embrace this interpretation, except this also raises a
possible issue: What about unstreamlined hulls or hulls with alot a exterior
fixtures? Would the jump field then have to extend farther out from the skin
of the hull so that all of the protrusions could be included, to a point
where it could be possible for something to be caught in a jumping ship's
"wake" and be dragged out of normal space? Or would the surface of a ship's
hull be "conductive" to the jump field generated at the nodes, so that the
outline of the field would conform to the shape of the hull just like an
electromagnetic field would?

I'm curious to know what everyone thinks.

- -Bob Kondrk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:30:53 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Military Chaplans?

Douglas:
[spurious assumptions snipped]

> Depends.  IMTU, the closest thing to an Imperial religion is a faith that
> worships stars as sentient, powerful beings.  So chaplains would probably
> be drawn from a moderate branch of that religion.  Then of course, you
have
> minority religions, which can cause headaches.

Another canon-buster there?  Who was it the worshipped the Darrian-spawned
star triggers?  Heh.

Aren't all religions, within a 10,000-world Imperium, by definition,
minority religions?  How do you establish a majority religion covering that
much ground anyway?  Oh, I know!  JIHAD!!!  More on that later...

> I question your comment about the military justifying their actions on a
> religious basis.  At least in the US Army, we did what we did because we
> had volunteered, and were subject to orders.  American troops have
> fine-tuned BS detectors, and appeals to a higher moral level will send the
> needle of the scale.

Heh.  Having lots of friends in the "big four" US military services and
other quasi-military services (I consider local/state police, Border, DEA,
FBI, et al part of a similar mindset), I would disagree.  It's not a BS
detector: it's healthy skepticism of the motives of those giving them the
orders.  If Captain Woody sez, "Kill a commie for Jesus," the embittered
Army "dude" is unlikely to be moved.  If the local pastor at home says that
God loves those that volunteer, and you do...

My favorite jarhead just died of so-called "leukemia" after he came back
from Saudi last year, and I won't comment on how peoples beliefs change
under such circumstances, but you can imagine.  Agnostics are, until the
bullets start flying over your "fighting position."

We all respond to the symbols that we are conditioned to revere, and that we
condition ourselves to revere.  The most heroic acts in history were just
such symbolically motivated behavior.  Your symbols may not be the cross or
the crescent and scimitar, but instead the nebulous "freedom and justice for
all."  Honestly, I don't think that the pay or training is good enough for
someone to volunteer without having a strong religious belief in something,
be it red, white, and blue, or black and white, or green and gold.

> I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.  When I did
> Basic, we had to attend chapel our first week.  There we received a
lecture
> about religious and spiritual services avalible to the trainees.  (There
> was also the tackiest painting I ever saw:  Jesus striding forward holding
> a banner that read "Follow Me", the motto of the Infantry!)  After that,
> Sunday services were optional.  By week four, there were only three guys
> from my platoon of 40 who were still going, the rest of us prefering to
> read the one newspaer a week we were allowed, or catch up on uniform
> maitenece.

During garrison duty.  Any statistics on post-combat behavior?  Veterans v.
FNGs?

It doesn't prove anything...  Some "religions" require nothing of their
unconscious adherents than simply living however they choose.  You're not a
scientologist are you?  ;-)

What made the Afghani Mujahideen more terrifying to the Soviets: their
training and equipment or the fact that had attended their own funerals and
believed that if they died fighting the would enter into Paradise?  BTW, in
case you're unfamiliar with the Afghani war, the natives didn't have
training or equipment.  What made the Crusades so much fun, for both sides?
What made the Fremen so terrifying to the Harkonnen?  What motivated the
privateers of Drake's "Reaches" saga?  For Piet Ricimer it was a belief in a
"divine mission" to reclaim the stars.  You would likely find more empathy
with Stephen Gregg in that trilogy, though.

The history of religion and warfare are inseparable, more so in the East and
Mid-East than in our "dispassionate" West (but that's only in the last
couple of decades).  The Revolution was fought for God and country, as were
the "Big Two," Korea, and for some, Vietnam, just to mention those important
to the US.

Oops, I've rambled on so long that I forgot to mention jihad again...  Oh,
well, I'll leave that to another post on the merits of militant religions,
or religious militaries.  We might be getting a lesson or two on that if the
Prez keeps up his insane agenda to ignore our allies and the other two
largest nuclear powers in the world.  How many chinamen are there now?

> >So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle
them?
> 
> The same way that soldiers do.  Ignore them.

You can, if you want.  But there wouldn't be military chaplains if everyone
did.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:37:58 -0500
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@erols.com>
Subject: What CE means

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:

>What does C.E. mean?

Hiya. CE means "Common Era". It's sort of a "politically correct" way to say
AD. Sometimes you'll also see BCE, which means "Before Common Era" and is
equivalent to BC.

Talk to ya later,

Bob Kondrk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:38:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Rob Prior wrote:
 
> Well, there are certain orders that you shouldn't follow, both morally and
> legally (at least since Nurenburg).  

One of the easiest things for anyone who isn't facing a firing squad to
say. Legally, during wartime, in many armies, and certainly in the SS
during WWII, refusal to follow orders can result in the ranking officer
next to you calmly pulling out their sidearm and executing you on the
spot.

While 'I was just following orders' may not be ordained  as a legal
defense against atrocities, the only alternative is effectively suicide.

Morally right and dead is still just plain dead.

Now, while sticking player characters into such situations might be, well,
interesting, from the GM's point of view, _always_ leave them some way
out.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:40:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Richard A. Flores writes:

>>   All you have to do is take one look in a Marine tactics manual and see
>>that to be a good Marine you must be an extremist and *very* dangerous.
>
>When it comes to defense, I say the more the merrier.  The more extreme and
>dangerous men and women like them we have around, the safer I feel.  Ob
>Traveller:  ditto.

   I have become convinced the word 'flank' doesn't appear in the Marine
vocabulary.  This is not a problem when wading in from the ocean, since
there is no such thing as flank when taking a beachhead, however once inland
the same tactics seem to apply--overwhelm through superior firepower and
mass of bodies.   Rule of thumb: take the hill--send in the Marines; go
around the hill and leave the enemy to surrender later--send in the Army.

   ObTrav: Ditto.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:53:23 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

><< >And, lay off the aviators, they were just doing their jobs.
> 
> Where have I heard that one before?
>  >>
>
>Ok, this one has WWWAAAAYYY to much flame potential in it.  I am quite sure
>that the pilots involved have had thier lives thoroughly trashed because of
>it, and have to live w/ the responsibility of thier actions forever.  And I
>don't EVEN want to get into how they wouldn't have been there at all if we
had
>done it right the first time...

My apologies for being off-topic here, but I want to clear this up in "public
air" for reasons that will be obvious to some.

I added my note after wards for a reason.  I'm sorry if I'm cynical enough to
believe that just doing one's job is not always a sufficient explanation to
those who have died, or who's families have been destroyed, or have suffered
any of the other horrors or indignities of war.  The North Vietnamese who set
traps that would maim rather than kill were just doing their jobs, those folks
at the chemical companies that made napalm and Agent Orange were just doing
their jobs, the soldiers that performed the atrocities at the concentration
camps were just doing their jobs, just as the soldier in the field is just
doing his or her job.  I am by no means naive enough to believe that every
soldier, every helicopter pilot, every fighter pilot, every logistics officer
and every other person involved in the machinery of warfare is an evil, vile,
snarling beast.  But, I am also by no means naive enough to believe that just
because someone was "doing one's job", that death, maiming, and emotional
scarring are all just made right and proper and everyone should be happy
again.  Perhaps having a father who has an increased risk of skin cancer, who
can't go out on a sunny day without a baseball cap and a ton of lotion without
getting nasty little tumors and splotches on his face has made me a little
cynical about these things.  Maybe it was the money he had to pay to diagnose
the problem, and the refusals by the government to even acknowledge that they
screwed up.  Maybe it is the thousands of others who were exposed to Angent
Orange and have the exact same problems now as a result.  Or maybe it was the
fact that the US government refused to pay reparations until a couple of years
ago, for those who suffered from chronic problems due to their exposure to
mustard gas that the US wanted to test on its own soldiers during WWI (only
one survivor from the test was still alive at the time).  Perhaps its also
those who suffer from chronic problems due to "gulf war illness" and the
governments lack of support for them...  Maybe these sort of things have made
me just a wee bit cynical about "doing one's job".

If I have misremembered or disrespected those who died in the Blackhawk
tragedy or their families in any way, I cannot apologize enough.  If it
appears that way to anybody, then I take this time to apologize and state that
it was not my intent to offend.  I know a number of the people on this list
are veterans of military service, some are veterans of peacetime service, and
some are veterans of wartime service.  If my comment insulted or disrespected
any of you, then I apologize for that now.  If my comment disrespected those
men who piloted the planes and acted correctly based on the information they
had, then I apologize.  If, in any way I insulted or disrespected those on the
design team for the IFF transponder that was in use, one of whom I know to be
a wartime veteran and who takes great pains in making sure that our soldiers
in the field are kept as safe as possible from both enemy attacks and
"friendly fire" and who goes to great lengths to make sure that every
technician in the field who contacts his office gets the help he needs as his
first priority, who was hurt very deeply when the device was used improperly
in the field and resulted in the deaths of the people involved, then I
apologize very deeply.

Finally, I apologize to those on the list for taking up this space with non-
Traveller related material, but I felt I had to clear the air before any hard
feelings came about from my comment.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:00:07 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

In a message dated 98-02-10 11:13:19 EST, you write:

<< 
 I've adopted a house rule that says that the Major column is used for both
cargo and major freight. What are your thoughts?
 
  >>
Thanks for your analysis. I have re-labelled the chart to show that the table
produced freight (goods carried for a fee). An unlimited quantity of Cargo is
available... which makes sense... its the primary product of the world.

I notice that the Cargo selling table is empty... I have yet to fill it in.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:58:58 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Shriekers and Chamax

Just to clarify that I am not a _total_ idiot; I was under the impression
that the question was a request for changes to the history of the Shriekers
to allow them to be from Chamax.  I may have misunderstood, but saying that
such a change is a problem because it contradicts the published history of
the Shriekers seems to defeat the presumed purpose of the question.

Kenji wrote:
> Unless you rewrite the Shrieker background as it was published, the
timeline for
> this really doesn't work.

I'm certain the response was not intended to be sarcastic, and neither is
my rebuttal.  I've just been burned a few times in the past on the TML by
similar, less well-intentioned responses, so I am a bit more sensitive than
I should be.

Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:18:30 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Communist Writings in Sayat

Peter Newman wrote:

>kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote
[snip]
>> The Manifesto is, yes, on my short list.
>
>But the Internationale is not ?  Some of the other, less right thinking
>(but more right wing thinking) sophonts on this list are already working
>on The Imperial Anthem.  If these reactionary counterrevolutionary
>Imperialist running dogs & their lackies are going to have a cool theme
>song don't the brave (and heavily armed) sophonts of the Sayat Concourse
>need a theme song as well ?

1) I got tin ears and no rhythm;
2) The words are distastefully speciesist. "On your feet"?  What about our
non-pedal comrades?  Or our non-vertically orientated ones?
3) You have a point.  I'll look into it.  Later, but soonish.

>> Of course, judicious and creative translation of, say, Mayakovsky would
>> permit me to COMBINE the broad thematic contents of _Macho Sluts_ and _The
>> Communist Manifesto_...
>> And I'd never have thought of this without the mediation of Traveller.
>> Probably.
>
>So would this we a sort of "whip me, beat me, read me Communist
>propaganda" sort of relationship then ?

Mayakovsky wasn't into S/M per se (or so we're TOLD), but did have
overactive gonads and run around falling violently in love with unavailable
women and then writing anguished Futurist poetry about it.  And bragging
about how butch and Red he was.  Diligent twisting of his words could
easily turn him into an emotionally disturbed 6' tall Sayat.

>I am almost afraid to ask this question but would I be correct in
>assuming that in the original Vilani text M Swann did not consume
>cookies called Madelines but rather consumed someone called Madeline ?
>
>If so I hope it was not that nice young lady from the childrens books
>who "in a old house in Paris that was covered in vines lived twelve
>young girls in two straight lines.  The youngest one was Madeline."
>
>Of course twelve young ladies who did everthing in common could very
>easily be a Sayat junior infiltration team.  No doubt their leader the
>erstwhile Miss Clavel was only pretending to be a nun.  Naturally any
>details of this groups particulars & intentions you can provide would be
>appreciated.

Damn it, Peter!  First, you made me laugh in front of two auditors who
thought I was _working_, and now you're FORCING me to go read
_Rememberance_ again.  As well as whatever this other soon-to-be-rewritten
children's classic is.

>I have this sudden picture of France in the late Ninteenth and early
>Twentieth conturies as being the hotbed of a covert war between the
>Vilani and the Sayat.
>
>No doubt the Concourse will one day/is/has already invented time travel
>and travelled back in time to alter history for their benefit.  For some
>odd reason both they and the Vilani have an unusual influence in France
>[Note that the Coneheads also claimed to be from France, maybe France is
>a hotbed of Alien activity.]  I would assume the Sayat were behind the
>French Revolution, the Paris Commune, etc. and that The Phantom of the
>Opera was a Slimy agent ?

You may be on to something here.  Looking at French and Sayat cuisine
certainly suggests the likelihood of cross-fertilization.  The "Phantom of
the Opera" was indeed a Slimy, investigating the proto-human phenomena of
"singing".  Quasimodo was a failed experiment in genetic "uplift".  So was
Marie Antoinette.  Laplace and his set were being telepathically
manipulated by Sayat math cultists, trying to lure them away from the
Templar fold.  It's ALL SO OBVIOUS!

Actually, I've been thinking about Vilani-Sayat relations.  I have this
image of Vilani traders meeting intrepid Solomani adventurer-explorers in a
Starport Bar(tm) and warning them off the Sayat.  The Vilani would see them
as totalitarian drones, reflexively crushing any traces of individuality,
privacy, or personal freedom, imposing a homogenized culture and
narrowly-defined mindset upon everyone they meet... and they have
absolutely barbarous and animalistic cooking and dining habits.  Given the
conception of Vilani culture I gather most people on the list have,
comments like this coming _from_ Vilani ought to give the PCs pause for
thought...

Besides this, the Vilani wouldn't recognize Sayat modes of _planning_ and
_foresight_ and probably distrust the safety features/margins in Sayat
engineering.

>Swann had some tendancies that would make him more likely to be Darmine
>than Vilani however.  Somehow I don't think that the conformist Vilani
>are too big on, the love that dares not speak its name, shall we say.

(Note that there are only four letters used in Swann's name.)

>Of course the Vilani might not mind as long as you don't do it in public
>and frighten the horses....

All this talk about "daring" and "fear" makes me wonder:  how do the
Answerin handle "homophobia"?  Yegad <G>.


>Maybe this is why Norris is [IMNSHO} a closet case.  Possibly the Vilani
>influenced Imperial culture is one like that of Victorian England, where
>nice people did not talk about this sort of thing, they merely indulged
>in it ?

Sounds about right to me.  It would also seem to suggest that the Imperium
proper doesn't recognize same-sex marriage; it certainly helps limit the
number of possible dynastic alliances within the Peerage.  Otherwise Norris
and Ishuggi would've been married off years ago and the Vargr never would
have overrun Corridor.

>> We'll show those warty-faced Klingon wankers a thing or two.  O yes.
>
>You are confusing me here is it the Klingons faces, their wankers, or
>both, that are warty ?

I am perfectly sure that there are Trek fans out there who could tell us
all about it.  Or they could, if it weren't dishonorable! <jut chin> <bare
plastic fangs>

Saaaay... so THAT's why Klingons have hair on their palms and bald spots on
their heads.

>>  Can I have mine in teal, with gold pinstriping?
>
>I would like two please: one in teal, with black pinstriping and one in
>black, with teal pinstriping.

The future is really going to be great, ain't it?  Man, am I glad to be an
American!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:19:24 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: What CE means

>Hiya. CE means "Common Era". It's sort of a "politically correct" way to say
>AD. Sometimes you'll also see BCE, which means "Before Common Era" and is
>equivalent to BC.

Geez.  What ever happened to standards?  :^)

Semo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #132
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 10 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 133



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)
re: GURPS Traveller
What CE means to me
Re: What CE means to me
MT as a military game 
Re: What CE means
Re: What CE means to me
Chamaxi and Shriekers
Annoying Language
Re: GURPS Traveller
SEAL Traveller (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)
Re: Chamax and the Shriekers
Re: Annoying Language
Re: What CE means
Re: What CE means
Re: What CE means
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Starship Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:28:18 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)

>Now, while sticking player characters into such situations might be, well,
>interesting, from the GM's point of view, _always_ leave them some way
>out.

Nah.  Leaving the players a way out makes it far less interesting.  Moral
dilemnas always have a way out built in, either you can do it, and suffer the
consequences of comprimising your own conscious, or you can not do it, and
suffer the possible consequence of death.

Granted, these things are always 'easier' when you're dealing with role-
playing lives rather then real-lives...  My party (who work for Interstellarms
at the moment) were supposed to take out a scientist who was working on stuff
for Delgado.  She refused to join them, and they wanted her whacked (also,
there were other reasons they wanted her whacked, but my party doesn't know
this at the moment).  When they got there to kill her, they realized what they
were doing was wrong, and they refused to kill her, in fact, they told her
that Interstellarms wanted her dead and that she should seek as much
protection as possible almost immediately...

They are now in the dilemna of what to do.  If they go back, they could be
killed by Interstellarms, but they might be able to talk their way out of it.
If they don't go back, an Imperium wide megacorporation with mercenaries in
every corner of known space will want them dead...

Building a way out is, well, cheating, isn't it?  :^)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:31:52 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: GURPS Traveller

>TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
>focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
>kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the

    This focus just wasn't there.  I've heard this alot, but there were types
of RCES missions and things were well setup for the pcs to be in other groups.
There weren't any sample adventures for non RCES at-least-freelance groups,
but that mold is as easily as broken as the Merchants and Mercanaries mold of
CT.  And CT does give me the impression that there is nothing other than M&M.
MT is opened up a bit, but CT seems straight M&M. I don't believe in molds,
though.  It would be easy to break out of that for CT and its even easier to
creat a non combat mission for TNE.  My TNE campaign has been a Free
Trader/Belter/Corporation  campaign.  They don't want to freelance for a SAG
raid...  that's for militaries.
I run another, RCN and RCMC military, campaign.  That's where the SAGs and
naval actions take place.  I also run a third, Regency campaign.  What does
everyone want to do?  Go into the wilds or Zho space (which is completely
falling apart) due to the Empress Wave.

>portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
>Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT). I couldn't
>figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in space".

That focus just wasn't there.  I've heard this alot, but there were many types
of RCES missions and there was plenty established to make a non RCES group.
Maybe others were limited by it, but not me.  That mold is as easily as broken
as the Merchants and Mercanaries mold of CT.  And CT does give me the
impression that there is nothing other than M&M.  MT is opened up a bit, but
CT seems straight M&M in its approach.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:43:40 -0500
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: What CE means to me

> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:19:24 EST
> From: SemoFetus@aol.com
> Subject: Re: What CE means
> 
> >Hiya. CE means "Common Era". It's sort of a "politically correct" way to
say
> >AD. Sometimes you'll also see BCE, which means "Before Common Era" and
is
> >equivalent to BC.
> 
> Geez.  What ever happened to standards?  :^)
> 
> Semo
> 

	What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards under this
new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore, or certain ethnic notations,
pretty soon we will have to be calling our enemies 'divided friends' or
something silly like that.  What will be next on the docket for the change
to 'correctness'?  I nominate A.M. and P.M.!  I think that A.M. hurts my
feelings as a person who has to get up early and go to work while others
get to sleep in to the PM!
	I want AM and PM to be identified as something else!  (Anyone have any
ideas of what to change it to?  Or does someone else want to speak out
about the silliness of this whole thing? :P)  That's what this all boils
down too you know.  People getting their feelings hurt, or they think they
are getting a bad stereotype from the names or connotations.  So since my
feelings are hurt with the changes in BC/AD I want to return the favor by
ruining the lives of those people who have this stick up their rectum for
insisting on the change!

	So I decided to use a little bandwidth here to put my little pin prick in
the dam and see what develops...  Sorry if this message offends some of
you, but I am a little fed up with the 'Reaganomics' of political
correctness.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:52:17 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

You have to ask yourself two questions; 1) How many people are on this planet,
and 2) How many are Christian?  I think common era is more appropriate, and I
like it. You are of course free to use whatever you like, and no you are not
going to shove anything up my a--.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:57:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: MT as a military game 

Hmm, it had never even occurred to me to run a military (as in running
battles and playing military personnel) MT scenario.  The reason I like
MT was that the Imperium was no longer a safe and stable place. 

Scenarios we used included:

1) Running supplies through the blockade on the Domain of Deneb 

2) Carrying refugees fleeing worlds about to be invaded

3) Jumping into systems after a major battle 

4) Exploring new speculative trade routes out on the far spinward fringes of 
the Domain since rest of the imperium was cut off.

5) Fleeing the reach of a hostile government or megacorp by heading for a 
region controlled by another faction

For us the Rebellion formed a wonderful background, but never came too
much to the forefront.  Actually playing military personnel on some
100,000 ton warship sounds pretty dull since your fate depends almost
wholely on the actions of NPCs. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:02:03 -0500
From: Generic Joe <genericjoe@vnet.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >Hiya. CE means "Common Era". It's sort of a "politically correct" way > >to say
> >AD. Sometimes you'll also see BCE, which means "Before Common Era" > >and is
> >equivalent to BC.
> 
> Geez.  What ever happened to standards?  :^)
> 
"The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose
from"


- -- 
Generic Joe
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Generic Joe's Journal -- A-typical Male's Journal
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2729

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:13:47 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

>
>You have to ask yourself two questions; 1) How many people are on >this 
planet, and 2) How many are Christian?  I think common era is >more 
appropriate, and I like it. 
>

But Dad, why do they call it Common Era?  What happened to go from 
Before the Common Era to the Common Era?  Why is that time so 
significant?  Dad?


Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 1998 15:20 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Chamaxi and Shriekers

CHAMAXI/SHRIEKER TIMELINE, ver.1

Chamax Psychology

Chamax minds are shaped in these ways: 

1. Low population pressures (high mortality rates at the life crisis
   boundary) plus the ability to live with crowding means 'living space' 
   is minimal, and 'expansion' is a rare thing.

2. When moves or expansion occurs, it occurs on a grand scale: in ancient
   times, Chamaxi moved only when resources vanished, and expansion
   didn't happen -- the group would just split into two groups and
   part ways to support the nomadic existence.  After the development
   of agriculture and husbandry, group sizes grew larger and stayed
   together more often; however, when a group split they usually lost
   contact altogether.  Chamax was plenty big for them, and crowding
   wasn't likely for a loooong loooong time.

On Chamax

The various tribes spread out over the planet, keeping (at best)
only tenuous contacts with one or two other tribes.  Because of
their low birth rate, their planet was covered with tiny groups
of Chamaxi, isolated by almost impassible wilderness.  In some
groups (labeled Alpha Groups), couples would make a trek across the 
wilderness to another group to settle down in, as a rite of 
fertility (which helped keep the gene pool healthy too).  The treks
were often hundreds or thousands of kilometers distant.  Groups
which had these exchanges tended to be more inquisitive, and their 
cultures tended to flourish.  On the other hand, "Beta" groups had
few exchanges, and tended to be smaller, less vigorous cultures.
"Gamma" groups, with minimal cultural growth, were usually nomadic
and perhaps didn't completely vanish until the Chamaxi finally
spread technology across the globe.

Civilization developed after -200,000, as the pockets of Chamaxi 
advanced in parallel courses with minimal interaction.  By -170,000,
many groups had a complex, "literate" culture, with plenty of time 
for research and development.  Groups were distinctly "Alpha" or
"Beta" groups; the distinctions would blur some over the next 100,000
years.  By -160,000, most groups were at TL 2-3; however, at least one 
Alpha group leapfrogged ahead to TL 9.  Taking the extremely long-term 
view of expansion, they built a colony ship.  With that ship the entire 
group launched itself to a world 10 parsecs away.

Chamax continued at TL 2 & 3 for a long time, but by -50,000 most 
settlements were emphasizing The Pilgrimage, and cultures began
to awaken to each other.  As minds met, civilization advanced, and
technology followed along at a leisurely pace, reaching TL 5 when
the Darrians were first on the rise.  Brief trade with the Darrians
brought their technology up to TL 8, and TL 9 was achieved when 
Cleon formed his Imperium.  The planet Chamax died in the year 700.

Off Chamax

Meanwhile, a planet 10 parsecs away was colonised by Chamaxi around
- -150,000.  The ship and technology was in great disrepair (and was
tailor built for one-way travel anyhow), so its one landing was its
last.  Chamax ores disintegrated over time on this new world, so
the settlers returned to agriculture and animal husbandry, and lost
their technology.

Around -108,000, a sun-worshipping empire arose in the East which 
centralized agriculture and advanced medicine, construction, and 
irrigation.  Severe drought, famine, and plague ended it.

About -15,000 nomad bands began to settle the broad flood plains to 
the West of the Great Sea.  By -10,000 there was a cluster of
agricultural centers established, with widespread trading and a
central religious authority.  A civil government took shape 
sometime around -9000, and the religous leadership abdicated its
power to become a passive group in a mountain retreat.  By -6000
the civilisation encircled the planet.

In -6000 the trench in the center of the Great Sea opened, dropping
the coastal plate and destroying the second Shrieker empire, leaving
the mountain retreat as the only bastion of Shrieker culture.  It
has been growing slowly, only just beginning to reach out of its
mountain retreat.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:30:19 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Annoying Language

"Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net> wrote:

>Semo wrote:
>>What does C.E. mean?

>Common Era, it's used by those who don't want to acknowledge Christ with the
>use of A.D. (Anno Domini, Medieval Latin for "in the year of the Lord") or
>are afraid to offend those who don't want to.  B.C.E. is Before the Common
>Era (B.C.).

Also used by academics all over the world.  This is hardly a "politically
correct" term, it's been in use for many decades now. 

>FYI, medieval is a term used for the dark ages by those who don't want
>people to think they were so bad.  We have all kinds of terms like this.
>Weird, no?

So do you have to work at being this obnoxious or does it come naturally
to you?  I can ignore the jingoistic militarism you recently spouted, but
the above post *really* annoys me.  You are awfully damn dismissive of
anyone who does not agree with you.  Most of the planet "does not not want
to acknowledge Christ" ie they are not Christians, live with it. 

As for the "dark ages" comment, it is used because the idea of the dark
ages was invented by folks from later eras who wanted to make themselves
look good.  Actually, the "dark ages" was one of the eras of greatest
technical progress in the west.  They just didn't happen to put up lots of
neoclassic buildings.  No modern scholars use the term "dark ages" any
more, nor have they for most of this century. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:40:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:

>TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
>focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
>kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the
>portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
>Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT). I couldn't
>figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in space".
>The rules were the best ever though.

That is the best description of TNE I've seen, and the reason I loathed
it.  The whole make the backward worlds "safe for democracy & capitalism" 
while also looting their tech was amazingly morally repellent.  I had
about as much impetus to play in that setting as I would a game of the
heroic German SS in WWII, *yuck!*

I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:32:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: SEAL Traveller (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)

Anders Backman writes:

>>My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
>>Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or you
>>are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most MT
>>campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.

   About the same analysis that GDW came to as I recall, but ultimately they
reached a different conclusion.

   They instead concluded that the game needed to be brought down to a level
so that what the PCs did had *impact*, whether they are members of the
military, or freelancers working for the highest bidder.

>TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
>focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
>kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the
>portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
>Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT).

   TNE was no more "just the RCES" than classic Traveller was "just the
Spinward Marches campaign" (all my scenarios have taken place in the
Solomani Rim).  Even if you restricted yourself to the Reformation Coalition
area, there were many things to do if your ref was of only modest creativity.

>I couldn't figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in 
>space".

   1) You are the owner of a 200 ton far trader, a ship that was your
father's and your grandfather's before him.  You make your living trading
with the RC and worlds who welcome off-worlders, dodging the Guild and the
occasional Vampire ship.

   2) You are a member of the RCES's Deep Space Exploration branch.  You
don't hit TEDs (fact is you might even be friendly with some of them as you
pass through their system deeper into space).  Your job is to make contact
with the Covenant of Sufren, or the rumored "HubWorlds".  Maybe you even get
sent off in an effort to find out whatever happen to the human homeworld
(Earth).  You have to be resourceful and make up the rules as you go along...

   3) You are a merchant prince, owner of a small merchant line that does
business within the RC and its area of operation.  Your "fleet" of three
merchant ships (two antiques, one of recent Aubani construction) isn't an
armada by any means, but you turn a nice profit.  Being an good entrepreneur
means that you get deal personally with everyone from high government
officials who want to "borrow" your ships "for a few weeks" to Guild
cutthroats who threaten to disrupt that new trade deal you just spent four
months negotiating.

   4) You are a freelance adventurer.  You go where you want, when you want,
taking contracts along the way to make money.  You take the tough, messy
assignments because that's where the money is, and you get offered the
tough, messy assignments because the RCES doesn't want any "entanglements"
and you are good at what you do...

   Note: this need not mean your character is Sly Stallone reprising his
role in the movie "Cobra"--this can also lead to adventures that are pure
mystery and intrigue, were only the bad guys carry firearms.

   5) You are a colonist on a "virgin" world.  Along the way you must settle
disputes among the other colonists, negotiate with (or fight) hostile
natives that the RC didn't know where still around, deal with other
off-worlders who may or may not come in peace, keep from strangling RC reps
who would rather get a good "photo op" with the colonists than actually
listen to their needs, and in general survive and claim the land for your own. 

   There you are, five campaigns that have nothing what-so-ever to do with
running around in a hi-tech wet suit, and that was just off the top of my head.

>The rules were the best ever though.

   Ditto.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:37:18 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: Chamax and the Shriekers

>How did they get to the Safari world, 10 parsecs away?  This is
>4000 years by their conventional drive, and requires them to
>have TL 9 (sans jump) at least 50,000 years ago.

>Does anyone have any ideas?

How about someone with a jump drive misjumped to their world and had to
make contact.  Maybe even a ship that was damaged in combat and the pilot
escaped combat with jump but didn't survive the landing on their world.

They tried to repair the ship to glean the technology they couldn't
understand.  Their test pilots tried to use the jumpdrive and misjumped
bigtime!

Could Happen?


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:05:45 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

>Also used by academics all over the world.  This is hardly a "politically
>correct" term, it's been in use for many decades now. 

In defense of his statement, the amount of years, and the number of people who
use it have no bearing on whether it is "politically correct".  I don't like
the term "politically correct" out of respect for those who are trying to
reform the language (for example, negro was a completely acceptable way to
refer to blacks once upon a time, and cripple was an acceptable way to refer
to people with a number of disabilities).  I do think that people take this to
an extreme (people fighting against the terms 'obese' and 'overweight' because
they imply that they are, well, heavier then is average or healthy).

I have never personally come across the terms C.E. or B.C.E, so from my
perspective, it would seem that their use is not common yet.

>So do you have to work at being this obnoxious or does it come naturally
>to you?  I can ignore the jingoistic militarism you recently spouted, but
>the above post *really* annoys me.  You are awfully damn dismissive of
>anyone who does not agree with you.  Most of the planet "does not not want
>to acknowledge Christ" ie they are not Christians, live with it. 

Then why not reform the whole dating system in the first place?  It is a
system that was devised by Christians, with Christ as the central point.  The
niceties of changing the names to CE/BCE doesn't seem to change the fact that
the whole system was and still is based around the birth of Christ.  I mean,
you're still acknowledging something that you claim to not be acknowledging,
just changing the name to pretend that you're not, kind of like if you were to
stop using 'nigger' to refer to black people, and using 'negro' instead (where
the real point of contention is not only the word, but the need to point out
that the person that you are referring to has a different skin color then your
own in newspaper articles, movie reviews, etc.)

Responses to this should be sent to me via e-mail.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:10:46 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Robert Kondrk wrote:

> SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
>
> >What does C.E. mean?
>
> Hiya. CE means "Common Era". It's sort of a "politically correct" way to say
> AD. Sometimes you'll also see BCE, which means "Before Common Era" and is
> equivalent to BC.

I beg to differ.  Its "Christian Era."  Or so they taught me in every
educational institution I've been to.  It was viewed as more poilitcally correct
than "Anno Domini" - which means "in the year of our lord" - understandably a
problem when not everyone adopts the christian interpretation of Jahweh as
'their' lord.  The Imperial Calender Enforcement guys, proper name escapes me,
might have their own version, as might the real world, but its "Christian era."
After all, anyone is free to deny that jesus christ is his lord, but its hard to
deny the impact of christianity on the western world.

Although 313 A.D. would be a better starting point since this was the time of
the Edict of Milan issued, making Christianity the only religion to be practiced
in the Roman Empire.  BTW, I was suprised to learn that even this 'late', in
Rome at the time of the edict, there were temples to such varied deities as Isis
and even some Norse gods (the work of the Varangian Guard, no doubt).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:27:22 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What CE means

I understand your point, but every site I found on the web when I 
searched said "Common Era" and "Before Common Era".  First time I saw 
this was at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, DC.

>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: What CE means
>I beg to differ.  Its "Christian Era."  

[snip]

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:39:31 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Steve Daniels wrote:

> I beg to differ.  Its "Christian Era."  Or so they taught me in every
> educational institution I've been to.  It was viewed as more poilitcally correct
> than "Anno Domini" - which means "in the year of our lord" - understandably a
> problem when not everyone adopts the christian interpretation of Jahweh as
> 'their' lord.  The Imperial Calender Enforcement guys, proper name escapes me,
> might have their own version, as might the real world, but its "Christian era."
> After all, anyone is free to deny that jesus christ is his lord, but its hard to
> deny the impact of christianity on the western world.
>
> Although 313 A.D. would be a better starting point since this was the time of
> the Edict of Milan issued, making Christianity the only religion to be practiced
> in the Roman Empire.  BTW, I was suprised to learn that even this 'late', in
> Rome at the time of the edict, there were temples to such varied deities as Isis
> and even some Norse gods (the work of the Varangian Guard, no doubt).

 I'm afraid I must disagree.  It stands for Close Escort, and is best typified in
the CT era by the Gazelle class.   A truely outstanding ship to give to PCs,
especially when you replace the drop tanks with external cargo containers.

Also a good ship in demonstrating the philosophy of the Imperium, as the crew
berthing is on the lower deck, and can only access the command deck (and officer
quarters) via a long, easily defended passageway.  (With fuel tanks surrounding
that passage...)

douglas


- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:37:32 +0000
From: Dominic Reynolds <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

Hi

 May I offend thee by suggesting the following alternatives for the really
upsetting and traumatic terms AM, and PM.


AM

NDT - New Day Time

or

MMR - Morning Miracle Time


PM

CDT - Concluding Day Time

or

AMT - Afternoon Miracle Time



- ----

Post traumatic word disorder techniques - for people who get upset by 
commonly used words that seem inoffensive to many.  


 One day I hope PCness will be outlawed, or the instigators will be shot :-)


Cheers

Dominic












>
>> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:19:24 EST
>> From: SemoFetus@aol.com
>> Subject: Re: What CE means
>> 
>> >Hiya. CE means "Common Era". It's sort of a "politically correct" way to
>say
>> >AD. Sometimes you'll also see BCE, which means "Before Common Era" and
>is
>> >equivalent to BC.
>> 
>> Geez.  What ever happened to standards?  :^)
>> 
>> Semo
>> 
>
>	What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards under this
>new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
>leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore, or certain ethnic notations,
>pretty soon we will have to be calling our enemies 'divided friends' or
>something silly like that.  What will be next on the docket for the change
>to 'correctness'?  I nominate A.M. and P.M.!  I think that A.M. hurts my
>feelings as a person who has to get up early and go to work while others
>get to sleep in to the PM!
>	I want AM and PM to be identified as something else!  (Anyone have any
>ideas of what to change it to?  Or does someone else want to speak out
>about the silliness of this whole thing? :P)  That's what this all boils
>down too you know.  People getting their feelings hurt, or they think they
>are getting a bad stereotype from the names or connotations.  So since my
>feelings are hurt with the changes in BC/AD I want to return the favor by
>ruining the lives of those people who have this stick up their rectum for
>insisting on the change!
>
>	So I decided to use a little bandwidth here to put my little pin prick in
>the dam and see what develops...  Sorry if this message offends some of
>you, but I am a little fed up with the 'Reaganomics' of political
>correctness.
>
>Scott
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:36:06 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

Richard A. Flores wrote:

> Erwin Fritz wrote:
>
> <snipped cargo availability table supplied by Marc>
>
> >Now, here's a question. The above chart looks, IIRC, just like the one in
> the MT rules.In those rules, it's not clear exactly how
> >much cargo you find.
>
> The number rolled is the amount in tons.
>

Hmmm, missed that. In that case, the rules are different. In MT, the amount
rolled was the number of lots. The lot size, in tons, was determined later using
a different roll.

> I don't recognize your terms (Traveller wise).  If they were used in any
> thing but CT & T4 then I missed them.  In those 2 cargo is what you call
> freight.  You ship it for someone else at a profit.  Speculative Cargo is
> what you call cargo.  It's something you buy and ship with the hopes of
> making a profit.
>

The cargo and freight definitions I use came from the MT rules. They're not that
important. The question still stands: where is the roll to determine how much
speculative cargo is available?

> >I've adopted a house rule that says that the Major column is used for both
> cargo and major freight. What are your thoughts?
>
> We always just allowed the captain to buy all he wants.  I've been to
> manufacturers and they usually don't have any kind of limit to how much you
> can buy.  No a limit that would mean anything to a free trader captain
> anyway.

That makes sense. However, that's not the roll I'm wondering about. I want to
know about the roll for what _types_ of speculative cargo is available, not how
much one can buy of each.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #133
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 10 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 134



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Military Chaplians?
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: What CE means to me
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: What CE means
RE: OT: Ringworld idea
RE: What accents do you use...
Re: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)
Systems and Milleaus...
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Jump Bomb
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Patriotism
Re: MT as a military game
Re: Annoying Language
Re: What CE means
Re: What CE means
Re: What CE means to me
re: Starship Economics
Roran: a new animal

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:31:48 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

At 07:25 AM 10/02/98 -0600, you wrote:

>I would hope that they [the aviators] would be like the only survivor of the
>Hiroshama and Nagasaki runs, who sometime back said, "I feel bad about all
>the people who died, but we were at war."  And continued with someting like,
>"I take some consolation from the millions who didn't have to die in the
>prolonged battle that would have been required to subdue the Japanese
>otherwise."

Pity that the latter isn't true, especially for the second A-bomb.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:19:19 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplians?

At 07:23 AM 10/02/98 -0600, Vic wrote:
>In the Traveller universe I compare the Imperium somewhat to the Roman
>Empire.  Therefore depending on the beliefs of the leadership, there
>could be religous groups that are persecuted, there could be wars over
>religous reasons, there could be an established Imperial religon and the
>outlawing of anyone who didn't subscribe to it.  Many interesting
>scenarios for players who enjoy that type atmosphere.

Until the Christians started making a huge fuss in the later Empire the
Romans were fairly tolerant, provided you didn't go round denying the
divintity of the Emperor. The Christians were perscuted because they
started saying that their god was the only one, etc, etc. This caused civil
unrest _because_ of the religious diversity of the Empire, not because of
repression of non official religions. The Roman Empire covered such a large
area and so many different cultures that it counldn't afford to enforce
only one religion, until Christianity was very common. BTW the Christians
threw Pagans to the Lions once they were in charge.

>Outside of the Imperium some alien races could be very devout/fanatical
>about there religous beliefs and use it as a reason to do any number of
>things like take over other planets etc.  More interesting scenarios. 
>Remember Middle East terrorists who for their beliefs would drive a bus
>filled with explosives into a building?

I don't think that's so much in the military, as in the society.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:26:54 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

At 11:35 AM 10/02/98 -0600, you wrote:

>FYI, medieval is a term used for the dark ages by those who don't want
>people to think they were so bad.  We have all kinds of terms like this.
>Weird, no?

FWIW my varsity lecturers used it as a twrm for the period between the Dark
Ages and the Renaissance. That is to say from about 1050 AD to about 1450
AD, extremely approximately.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:19:42 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))

At 07:37 AM 10/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Yeah....nothing like killin your buds.
>>
>>Sometimes I wonder if people really understand the ramifications of
>>these things, even though I was there and know how fast it all was
>>moving.
>>
>>Unfortunatly sorrow isn't enough to bring them back.  They can join the
>>hundreds (or thousands) of our own we've scratched by mistake keeping
>>the world "safe for free trade" over the last 45 years.
>
>Freedom isn't free!  It's paid for with the blood of patriots!*  Men (and
>women) have been paying that price since time immemorial.  Yes, some of them
>were accidentally killed by their own, but you make their sacrifice less by
>the way you talk about it.
>
>We have records of friendly kills dating back BC (BCE).  But they gave their
>lives for the good of all who sent them.  I couldn't stand the way the
>returnees after 'Nam were treated, and I can't stand the way this subject is
>being treated.  For everyone who's not happy with my responses to what is
>written in this vein, there will be a dozen who agree, but just didn't say
>anything.

I wouldn't gat too carried away with pre-moderns fighting for the good of
all, or even their country. In the Roman Republic the main reason for the
wars in Greece and Asia Minor were profit, and the profit went to the
Generals, and their cronies. The massive influx of wealth into the Roman
economy caused inflation and economic collapse, which did far more harm to
those at the bottom than those at the top. The wars also dragged men off
the farms, so they couldn't be worked properly, so they had to be sold at
rock bottom prices (or through mortgagee sales) to the great families who
turned them into slave farms, while the original owners whent to Rome and
starved (unless their menfolk came back with LOTS of booty). The British
conquered India for the money, and the businessmen and the British East
India Company investors sure as hell wern't the ones doing the dying. White
Man's Burden came along quite late in the piece.

Secrifice of one's self for the good of your country, or for freedom is a
modern idea, and once you start examining who actually profits from the war
it is unusual to find that the people as a whole are the priary
beneficiaries of the war. Look at the war of 1812 for example, or our own
(New Zealand) Moari Land Wars.

ObTrav: By 990 the Imoperial militaries have centuries of tradition and
honor to help with motivation and recruitment, and the clearly 'good' role
of preserving the Imperium. However in M:0 these don't yet exist. Is
recreating the glories of the past an adequate motivator, or recruitment
draw? If not what do they use?


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:33:19 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 03:47 PM 10/02/98 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:

>TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
>focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
>kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the
>portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
>Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT). I couldn't
>figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in space".
>
There are heaps of different traders in TNE, and the Guild is only one of
them. IIRC the TNE rules mention the possibility of a Free Trader campaign,
and it's certainly interesting option. 

Did/do you have _Path of Tears_? It has many adventure thread in it, 4 or 5
for each decently populated world in about 4 subsectors, and a good chunk
of them are trade or diplomacy missions.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:51:49 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

At 02:52 PM 10/02/98 EST, you wrote:
>You have to ask yourself two questions; 1) How many people are on this
planet,
>and 2) How many are Christian?  I think common era is more appropriate, and I
>like it. You are of course free to use whatever you like, and no you are not
>going to shove anything up my a--.

But given thats it's a date based on the Christian calendar, and thus has
no significance to anyone else, how in the hell can it be 'common'. IMO to
call it common is dishonest, and at least AD & BC tell us whose calendar it
is.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:56:56 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 12:40 PM 10/02/98 -0800, John Snead wrote:
>anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:
>
>>TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
>>focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
>>kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the
>>portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
>>Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT). I couldn't
>>figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in space".
>>The rules were the best ever though.
>
>That is the best description of TNE I've seen, and the reason I loathed
>it.  The whole make the backward worlds "safe for democracy & capitalism" 
>while also looting their tech was amazingly morally repellent.  I had
>about as much impetus to play in that setting as I would a game of the
>heroic German SS in WWII, *yuck!*
>
>I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.

Funnily enough I like TNE because it's not about how the free market rules.
I always felt the 3I was distressingly like the US in space - free trade is
what matters, etc. The fact that it somehow (despite its Vilani roots) had
a higher TL than all its neighbours didn't help.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:01:35 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: What CE means

At 04:10 PM 10/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Robert Kondrk wrote:
>
>> SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> >What does C.E. mean?
>>
>> Hiya. CE means "Common Era". It's sort of a "politically correct" way to
say
>> AD. Sometimes you'll also see BCE, which means "Before Common Era" and is
>> equivalent to BC.
>
>I beg to differ.  Its "Christian Era."  Or so they taught me in every
>educational institution I've been to.  It was viewed as more poilitcally correct
>than "Anno Domini" - which means "in the year of our lord" - understandably a
>problem when not everyone adopts the christian interpretation of Jahweh as
>'their' lord.  The Imperial Calender Enforcement guys, proper name escapes me,
>might have their own version, as might the real world, but its "Christian era."
>After all, anyone is free to deny that jesus christ is his lord, but its hard to
>deny the impact of christianity on the western world.
>
>Although 313 A.D. would be a better starting point since this was the time of
>the Edict of Milan issued, making Christianity the only religion to be practiced
>in the Roman Empire.  BTW, I was suprised to learn that even this 'late', in
>Rome at the time of the edict, there were temples to such varied deities as Isis
>and even some Norse gods (the work of the Varangian Guard, no doubt).

And after Rome became Christian there was quite a lot of persecution of non
Christians, something many who go on about Romans throwing Christians to
the Lions don't seem to realise.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:06:23 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Ringworld idea

Doug:

> The is a Ringworld in the Vargr Extents, left unfinished.  Evidently, which
> ever kid/grandkid was working in the area had a thing for mega-projects, as
> there is also a multi-world rosette out there in doggie space.

Turning Rover into a sapient is definitely a MEGA-project.  Why is it that
the only geneered races (that I've come across) are major ones?  Or is that
there are just enough racial variations without mucking about in DNA-land
(or are they so far from what we could identify as 'originals' that we -
Imperials - wouldn't know the difference)?


- - Dave ][

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:15:15 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: What accents do you use...

Doug:

These are great!  Just what I was hoping to get with my original *troll*...

re: Vargr
> "Human!  How much"<pause>"For the red white and orange 'Dreadnaughts'
> jacket?"<pause>"Ring it up!" *manical laughter*

I would *love* to know the story behind this one!

> Aslan tend not to speak much, and then are extraordinarily polite.  I am
> very creful with gender forms.  I also roll everything when doing Aslan. 
> 
> "Good morrrrinnng, Kepperrrr of this storrre, I wish to purrchase a
> quuanity of Dustspice."

This one is my favorite, although Aslan never seem to make it into my
campaign (okay, once doesn't count - they needed new characters afterward
anyway).

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:40:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
 
> They are now in the dilemna of what to do.  If they go back, they could be
> killed by Interstellarms, but they might be able to talk their way out of it.
> If they don't go back, an Imperium wide megacorporation with mercenaries in
> every corner of known space will want them dead...
> 
> Building a way out is, well, cheating, isn't it?  :^)

No it's not. Your player characters are dead if they can't talk their way
out of it. THAT'S the way out I was talking about. They have a chance.
Players tend to get pissed at being put into inescapable traps, unless
they're tired of playing those characters.

Building a way out of the trap in the campaign planning stage is merely
prudent GM'ing. The object of the game is _not_ to pit GM vs.
Players...that gets real old real fast. 

Of course, having said that building an escape is prudent, I have yet to
see the group of PC's who didn't see another way out...;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:20:51 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Systems and Milleaus...

My players and I were having a discussion...

I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to take a poll:

a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

We're curious...do people tend to use just one ruleset and its companion
setting - or are people doing something like what we're doing (classic
Traveller rules, Rebellion Setting).

I'm not trying to start an argument over which is best ('cause its a moot
point, we all have our favorites). Just wondering...

For the record, here's mine:
a) Favorite rules - Classic Traveller with DGPs Task System
b) Favorite setting - Rebellion

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:42:01 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

Because most Western Historians are Christian.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:42:11 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

At 04:20 pm 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>My players and I were having a discussion...
>
>I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to
take a poll:
>
>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

	TNE with mods (stuff from FF&S2, modified task system, etc.)

>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

	Hmmm ... gotta go with the RCES. And for the record, I've never
run a wetsuit wearing, TED killing, make the universe safe for
"American Imperialism," warmongering campaign. There so much room
for more in the setting ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:55:49 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

> 
> While 'I was just following orders' may not be ordained  as a legal
> defense against atrocities, the only alternative is effectively suicide.

To which I respond (agreeing, mind you) that the only solution
is to attempt do do what you know is morally and tactically (even
strategically) sound and make damn sure that you don't lose the war.

The war crimes trials don't go so well for your side if you lose.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:34:57 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Bomb

You would have to be really, really, REALLY close for a dumb jump
bomb to work.  Its basically a mine.  It would be best if it had
a det laser warhead or at least some sort of gravitically directed
explosive jet (a la TDX).

I read the old calcs of Nuke effectiveness and they are less than
impressive.  These numerical calcs concur with the general feel 
of the conclusions of "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons" (1962), A
very interesting book which has recently been updated.  I don't have
the update.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:03:23 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

<snip>
>That is the best description of TNE I've seen, and the reason I loathed
>it.  The whole make the backward worlds "safe for democracy & capitalism"
>while also looting their tech was amazingly morally repellent.  I had
>about as much impetus to play in that setting as I would a game of the
>heroic German SS in WWII, *yuck!*

     What a load of horse crap!  Stick to the facts and not your narrow
viewpoint.
     The goal wasn't to loot, it was to take it before the techno/xeno-phobic
natives destroyed it and to restore the "capitalism" (read: trade, commerce
and a fragment of interstellar society) lacking the moral repugnance and
arrogance of the late and lamented Last Imperium. 
     
>I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.

Nice commentary, Comrade...Has the Party lost control of its computers or
what? 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:51:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

Greg Smith writes:

>In light of this discussion, I just received this (from my work) and 
>thought it appropriate to include....  I think Senator John Glenn's 
>words sum up how we all feel on this list, regardless of which country 
>we may call home....

   Nice speech, too bad Sen. Glenn's Congressional record was that of a
Democrat Party rubber stamp.  I know because I'm from Ohio, where the
honorable gentleman was re-elected each time he ran because he was a
distinguished veteran Marine Corps pilot and a former astronaut (not because
he was a good senator).

   That said, I think I can speak for everyone in wishing him a safe journey
as he suits up one more time and takes a ride on the Space Shuttle.  I think
he'll find that the ride has improved since the last time he was in orbit.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:07:27 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: MT as a military game

> For us the Rebellion formed a wonderful background, but never came too
> much to the forefront.  Actually playing military personnel on some
> 100,000 ton warship sounds pretty dull since your fate depends almost
> wholely on the actions of NPCs.
> 
This is the general feeling I guess.  The key is to make sure your PCs
are pivotal characters with decision making powers.  In this case, it
is really quite similar to normal Traveller:

	type "S" or type "A"	-		warship
	co			-		group leader
	dept heads		-		PCs
	divos			-		PCs
	CPOs			-		PCs
	Ratings			-		PCs
	adventure/conflict	-		combat & shore leave
	NPCs (friendly)		-		Other ship's crews
						& ownship's crew
	NPCs (hostile)		-		Enemy, thugs (ashore)

The GM just has a little more control over the lives of the PCs.
Its exactly the same as the real world comparison.  But life in the 
military is very, very exciting (from time to time) and very boring
and needlessly (?) stresful at others.

All depends on what you want out of the game.  Like Bab5?  the the
Rebellion's for you.

So...who the first to join the IN?  (Uncle Lucan wants you!)

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:32:36 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

>>Common Era, it's used by those who don't want to acknowledge Christ with the
>>use of A.D. (Anno Domini, Medieval Latin for "in the year of the Lord") or
>>are afraid to offend those who don't want to.  B.C.E. is Before the Common
>>Era (B.C.).
>
>Also used by academics all over the world.  This is hardly a "politically
>correct" term, it's been in use for many decades now.

It started as decidedly anti-christians.  Its caught on because it's not
"nice" to all those poooooor people who fell to European conquest and forced
conversion. 

>>FYI, medieval is a term used for the dark ages by those who don't want
>>people to think they were so bad.  We have all kinds of terms like this.
>>Weird, no?
>
>So do you have to work at being this obnoxious or does it come naturally
>to you?  I can ignore the jingoistic militarism you recently spouted, but

How about you answer that question?  

>the above post *really* annoys me.  You are awfully damn dismissive of
>anyone who does not agree with you.  Most of the planet "does not not want
>to acknowledge Christ" ie they are not Christians, live with it.

  Now now now... we seem awfully defensive, don't we?  "Most" of the planet
might not acknowledge my Lord Jesus, but the vast majority of the western
world does.  YOU live with it.  

>As for the "dark ages" comment, it is used because the idea of the dark
>ages was invented by folks from later eras who wanted to make themselves
>look good.  Actually, the "dark ages" was one of the eras of greatest
>technical progress in the west.  They just didn't happen to put up lots of
>neoclassic buildings.  No modern scholars use the term "dark ages" any
>more, nor have they for most of this century.

Noone denies there was technical progress after the fall of Rome.  But it was
a much more illiterate and savage time than the Pax Romana enjoyed for so
long.  Much of Roman culture and civilization was lost and Rome *was* the
"world."

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:36:54 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Greg Smith writes:

>I understand your point, but every site I found on the web when I 
>searched said "Common Era" and "Before Common Era".  First time I saw 
>this was at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, DC.

   The Smithsonian Institute has become the home of every Politically
Correct crackpot this side of Greenwich Mean Time.  Look at what they
tried to do with the Enola Gay exhibit if you don't believe me--and
there are many other less publicized examples.  Even if the US Congress
cleaned out all of the top administrators tomorrow it will take years to
undo all the damage the Smithsonian's "historians" (and I use that term
very loosely) are doing to American history.

   'Common era'.  Common to who?  Which culture?  The Chinese? the
Arabs?  the Jews?  who?  What PC stupidity.  Recall what Voltaire said
about the Holy Roman Empire (assuming dead white guys rate that much
time in History classes these days).

<venting completed>

   Nothing against you Greg, just a pet peeve.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:45:00 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Greg Smith wrote:

> I understand your point, but every site I found on the web when I
> searched said "Common Era" and "Before Common Era".  First time I saw
> this was at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, DC.
>
> >From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: What CE means
> >I beg to differ.  Its "Christian Era."

Well, back before there was a web . . . yada yada gripe gripe . . .
Pure conspiracy, I tell you!

If "common" era it the way its spelled now, so be it.  I have never used the
term, nor will I.  Why don't we take 001-2001 A.D. as an opportunity to
fix our calendars and all the tinkering the Julian, Gregorian, etc. have
caused, add a year 0 as there ought to be, etc., and be done with the
damn thing.

:-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:47:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Scott Spieker wrote:

> 
> 	What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards under this
> new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
> leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore...

rest of rant snipped 

Uhhh....CE and BCE have been common usage among anthropologists and
archaeologists for quite some time now, decades, I think. It's not
political correctedness run amok. 

Lighten the $%# up dudes!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:20:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Starship Economics

 Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net> wrote:

>Could someone give me some pointers to where I can find info on the
>costs of starship operations?  How much to pay the crew, what fuel
>costs, what's the expenses for carrying a High Passage passenger, etc.

RTM - p46 to 55 MT Referees Manual

>This is for an MT scenario, I have no access (or interest) in TNE or T4.

Not sure if TNE used the same system for the Regency, but the T4 systems is
identical apart from the fact that it's mangled in the text. I have fallen
back to using the MT reference as it is clearer.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:56:29 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Roran: a new animal

Last session my group, who are in Leedor starting the Traveller
Adventure, encountered a pet store. The Ael Yael engineer they have (an
NPC) became outraged at the condition of the captive animals there and
convinced the group to stage a rescue effort. That effort will take
place next session while the other half of the group is burglarizing the
museum.

Anyway, one of the PCs declared he'd like to buy a pet (the Luugir he
had several months previous died), and asked about the contents of the
cages. I hadn't expected that, so I made up some details about the
"Roran". The PC now wants to keep this animal once it's rescued.

So, I sat down tonight and tried to apply some Traveller rules and
general logic to the ramblings I uttered when that PC asked about the
creature. What follows is my first crack at the creature.

I'd appreciate any comments from you, because (as you'll soon tell) I
know very little about biology or zoology. I fully expect to rewrite
this description, so whip out the proverbial red pen and make marks!

Here goes.
===========================
Roran
The Roran is a carnivorous chaser used mostly for sentry duty.
Originally from somewhere in the Old Expanses sector, they have been
transported to all parts of the Imperium over the course of centuries.

In the wild, Rorans are cave dwellers who travel in packs ranging in
number from at least three to as many as eighteen. Studies of their bone
structure and muscle distribution led researchers to conclude that they
originated on a small, low-gravity world with a high C02 content.

Soon after birth, the young Roran sprouts quills on top of its shell.
These serve to protect the creature from predators until puberty. During
this stage of development, the Roran also develops small suction cups
under its feet. It uses them to suspend itself on cave walls and
ceilings, again as a protective measure.

At puberty, the Roran leaves its cave in search of its own territory to
stake. Usually this new home turns out to be another cave. Since the
supply of caves is limited, a particular cave will be chosen by several
Rorans simultaneously. Physical combat (rarely lethal) usually
determines the master of the cave, with the losers of the fight becoming
less dominant members of the pack.

Several physical changes also occur at this time. The most important one
is the (seemingly random) choosing of a gender. The Rorans suction cups
and feet gradually disappear and are replaced by small wings. The armor
shell on its back softens and becomes considerably more pliable, to
enable the motions required for flight.

Adult Roran have the ability to fly for short periods in gravities of
less than 0.5G, where the atmosphere is standard density or higher.

Roran in the Imperium
Rorans are very territorial and therefore make excellent sentry animals.
There are two main difficulties the Roran owner needs to overcome.

First, Rorans use their solid excrement as territorial markers. As the
old feces dry up, new ones are used to replace them. The sense of smell
of most humans is sorely tried by this trait.

Second, in order to be accepted as part of the Roran "clan", the master
must engage in physical combat with the Roran, and win. The Roran must
perceive the owner as master of the clan, or it will attempt to be that
master.

Note to Players
Picture the young Roran as a turtle with porcupine quills on its back.
Picture the adult Roran has a sea tortoise.

The Traveller characteristics for the adult Roran follow.

Qty Animal Weight Hits Armor Wounds and Weapons
3D6 Roran 50 kg 6/5 none 2 claws & teeth Am F6 S2


- --
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #134
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 135



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: Military roleplaying (Not so Long) and SEXY, SEXY B-52's
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Marine Bashing
Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid
Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders
Re: Annoying Language
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Patriotism (fwd)
SEAL Traveller (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)
Re:  GURPS Traveller
Re:  What CE means to me
Since Nurenburg...
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: Jump Bomb
Re: Pocket Empires
A new calendar for the new millenia (was RE: What CE means)
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Patriotism (fwd)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #126

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:05:15 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

Andrew Akins wrote:

> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

MegaTraveller, although I'll switch to T4.1 once it's out.

> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

My campaign started in 1105. Right now it's 072-1107 and I'm all set for the
5FW!
- --
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:48:41 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

> 
>   It was an unfortunate accident (which happens in all walks of life) and
> should be moved on past...out of respect for those who gave thier lives doing
> what they thought was right, if for no other reason.


True.  One thing to remember is taht they were putting their lives on
the line at the time of the accident.  They were doing their best and
made a mistake, and as deadeye and others have inferred, it will haunt
their souls in a form of punishment that none could ever inflict upon
them.  They're to be respected, despite their mistake.  

And this topic makes a wonderful topics for a Traveller adventure,
or at least a scenario.  This is fundamentally a great concept for
a "haunted" sort of character.  Very introspective.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:31:52 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

Hear Haer, lighten up a bit, mind you, Moat Islamic sholars, and much of
modern Scholarship on Islamic studies uses the Islamic Calender anyway.
I expect that this covers a few hundred million people.
Colin
At 15:47 10/02/98 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Scott Spieker wrote:
>
>> 
>> 	What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards under this
>> new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
>> leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore...
>
>rest of rant snipped 
>
>Uhhh....CE and BCE have been common usage among anthropologists and
>archaeologists for quite some time now, decades, I think. It's not
>political correctedness run amok. 
>
>Lighten the $%# up dudes!
>
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:43:50 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

If the Rorans dont work out I recommend anolas.

I like anolas.  They are so fun and cuddly and I just want to be around
them awhole lot and love them and hold them and
duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh......

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:52:18 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying (Not so Long) and SEXY, SEXY B-52's

> Deadeye flies B-52s RT.  It's hard to go adventuring with a B-52.  

Actually it was easy to go adventuring with a B-52.   More to say the
adventure came to you.  And the chicks loved it because it is such a
sexy, hi tech jet and SOOOoo manueverable.  

But it does have the capability to blast a grid 300' by 3000' completely
clear of fleshy pink bodies and other stuff, which makes it its own form
of "sexy."  

And If I'd hung around I could have gotten a date with Kelly Flynn.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:25:42 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

At 03:47 PM 10/02/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Scott Spieker wrote:
>
>> 
>> 	What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards under this
>> new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
>> leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore...
>
>rest of rant snipped 
>
>Uhhh....CE and BCE have been common usage among anthropologists and
>archaeologists for quite some time now, decades, I think. It's not
>political correctedness run amok. 
>
>Lighten the $%# up dudes!

I was brought up to view the above types (especially anthropologists) as
bleeding heart liberals, etc, etc, so all this does is strengthen is
'CE/BCE is PC' position.

And to think that some people can't see what a big deal the 3I calendar
reform is!


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:10 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Marine Bashing

> I refuse to even rise to the bait (Marines just don't), but just to let you
> know we're out here...
> 

Marines are locked on.  I just can't stand it when they beat up my crew
chiefs cause they are bored.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:34:56 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Patriotism (was: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders))

> ObTrav: By 990 the Imoperial militaries have centuries of tradition and
> honor to help with motivation and recruitment, and the clearly 'good' role
> of preserving the Imperium. However in M:0 these don't yet exist. Is
> recreating the glories of the past an adequate motivator, or recruitment
> draw? If not what do they use?
> 
> -- Rupert Boleyn


Sylean military will be the core.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:21 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

> I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.
> 

Concur, but that was simply to try to save GDW by attracting youger
gamers.  The best stuff for Trav comes when it is not any nationality
projected into the future but something very different.

Given time and creative minds TNE will become way cool, just like
Harolds CoE stuff in the Trav Chronicle.  

I just hated the death of the universe I loved.

To quote Charlton Heston:

"You maniacs, you blew it up!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:19 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

> Funnily enough I like TNE because it's not about how the free market rules.
> I always felt the 3I was distressingly like the US in space - free trade is
> what matters, etc. The fact that it somehow (despite its Vilani roots) had
> a higher TL than all its neighbours didn't help.
> 

That is because it was written here.  Youse guys from over there MUST
put your two BITS in(heh,heh) to make it otherwise no matter what
version.  IT is your game too.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:14 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Rid

> On the other hand, you have to wonder how many people that safegaurds like
> this save who would be dead without them...
> 
> Those kind of figures are never seen (with good reason, because they're
> hypothetical).


I see them every time I fly and get hit by an interogating Mode 4.  Or
when I get that "unknown rider" call (and my posit!) from NORAD coming
back in from over the pond.

The IFF stuff does work.

BTW, this is leading up to something in a following post, and is not off
topic.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:12 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...  (was RE: Fighters vs. Battleships & Ba ttle Riders

> Thousands, easily.  Up to millions if you count civilian deaths, although
> how much of that was 'accidental' and how much was deliberate is a matter
> for debate, and the numbers change if you include/exclude "bystanders".

There is a difference between fratting your ally/buddy and collateral
damage.  I dropped over 1 million pounds of bombs over in the sandbox
and I KNOW what I did.  And I'm pretty sure I didn't just waste nasty
Republican Guard guys(but mostly anyway.)

They also shot back.  A lot.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:21:35 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

At 06:32 PM 10/02/98 EST, you wrote:
>Noone denies there was technical progress after the fall of Rome.  But it was
>a much more illiterate and savage time than the Pax Romana enjoyed for so
>long.  Much of Roman culture and civilization was lost and Rome *was* the
>"world."
>
>Gary

That's a very 'western' POV, you know. In fact most of the Roman culture
and civilization was not lost but alive and well in the Eastern Roman
(Byzantine) Empire, until the Arabs, Crusaders and Italian city sataes did
for it.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:37:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:52:17 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

> You have to ask yourself two questions; 1) How many people are on this planet,
> and 2) How many are Christian?  I think common era is more appropriate, and I
> like it. You are of course free to use whatever you like, and no you are not
> going to shove anything up my a--.

The whole thing is silly hypersensitivity.  July is names after
a pagan emperor and Thursday after the pagan god Thor.  However,
even cristian Europe at it's most intolerant didn't have a
problem with that.

It's just silly to try and pretend that the number system
isn't based on what it is in fact based on because you
can't stand that a religion has the sort of historical
impact that other religions had before them.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 22:24 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Patriotism (fwd)

Moin Anders Backman,

> >Freedom isn't free!  It's paid for with the blood of patriots!*

> What the hell has this to do with traveller?
> Please take this patriotism thing to private e-mail (and exclude me), or
> better yet, discuss why people in general in 3I join the military/navy or
> refrain from doing so.

	well if you think about that suerrat und lacian who had to suffer
	under vilani and later solomani control ignoring their different
	culture. you'll see patriots fighting for their freedom in the
	pacification campain. you will see patriots in the hard times,
	when starport suppression of a captative colonie (translation
	missjump: Konzentrationslager quite often in the 3ten Reich,
	alias 3I) lost against a rowing fleet.

	birds of a feather are flocking together. when they start "to
	fight their freedom" patriots thinking will grow. its just normal
	that people group of similar tongue, skin or thinking (the foot
	ball club e.g.). its of course a problem that those groups are
	easy to manipulate. Strephons war was, as was Magrets, mainly
	intelligence action - a free trader full of weapons could cause
	a major riot in a lot of systems in the rebellion, if placed into
	the rigth hands. it could delay support and logistics. patriotism
	is a tool for powermongers, and it is for this reason supported by
	them. also xenophobi is likely to spring from patriotism, and
	in the hand of a technological elevated dictator patriotism can
	form an insane war maschine we have seen 50 years ago. How many
	worlds are balkanised in the 3I and why - divide and conquer.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 05:38 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: SEAL Traveller (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)

Moin Harold D. Hale,

>    There you are, five campaigns that have nothing what-so-ever to do with
> running around in a hi-tech wet suit, and that was just off the top of
> my head.

	Wearing a pessure suite is a must whenever a trader leaves a
	starport.  The wilds are not secure and comon practice in
	trade ships is to reduce atmosphere to 0.1at, as this reduces
	chance of fire and pressure drop hurricanes inside the ship. At
	100 diameter lights go out, when they go on again, anybody has
	his kickback to enjoy one week suitless. Before exiting jumpspace
	atmos is reduced a second time, and anybody has to wear the
	suit and a compressor until arival. Thats 70 years of tradition
	of free traders who survived the hard times. When it was more
	chic to wear a light battle dress, those who could afford such
	a fancy dress (with a kill me-i'm fighting for lucan-transponder)
	started to wear jumpsuites. After 70 years this became the second
	skin of anybody who is twice a month in space, for a good reason.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:04:50 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re:  GURPS Traveller

John Snead writes:
>
>That is the best description of TNE I've seen, and the reason I loathed
>
>it.  The whole make the backward worlds "safe for democracy & capitalism" 
>
>while also looting their tech was amazingly morally repellent.  

[snip]
>
>
>I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.

We played the other side, heroically defending our world's freedom against
the Evil Wanna-Be-Empire. :-)

The RC is as morally ambiguous as the Imperium (read Milieu 0 for dirt on
Cleon and the TI), but the writers that were published seemed to stick to
just one viewpoint.  Hivers & Ithklur hinted that there were more
perspectives coming, but GDW didn't last long enough for those to get
published.

I agree that the published adventures were militaristic.  I just didn't
use them for anything but setting.  And RC Marines make great bad-guy
NPCs, cause you've got to use brains not firepower to defeat them (without
taking huge friendly casualties).

Hmm.  

Marc Miller = Merchants and Mercenaries
Dave Nilsen = Darwinists and Neocolonialists?

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:32:32 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re:  What CE means to me

   All this CE and BCE garbage is an attempt to distance the Christian
heritage of the western world and apologize from dominating the globe.  If
that's what we, as a society, want to do, then lets be honest about it.  Of
course, that wouldn't wash... Noone comes straight out with their true
intentions otherwise, the majority of its proponets would be revealed as what
they are.  As a Catholic and Christian, I will continue to use Anno Domini
before the date.  
    The modern (western) world is not a place that has the intestinal
fortitude to stand up and proclaim its convictions.  And those convictions are
slowly being eroded away.  

Obtrav...  have any of the Emperors or Empresses been religious?  Nothing said
either way, but if some were, it would be somewhat likely that they would try
to enforce their beliefs on their subjects no?  And would great grandson
Emperor or Empress apostasize those beliefs in a couple hundred years?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:31:26 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Since Nurenburg...

My brother and I ran a MT scenario like this and its still awaiting
the "legal" resolution.  one of the best I've ever played in.  I (my
character as an IN ship Commding Officer) had to make the decision to
do the nasty to an planet's primary source of income.   It was a loyal
Imperial world (Lucanist faction) and I was a CO in the Vengeance 
Fleet.  'Twas fun.

BTW, we do train on this in the USN at least.  There's been a lot of
emphasis on giving guidance and thought to "how would you react in
such and such situation"  and "what decision would you make."  Can you
fire upon someone in accordance with the ROE and geneva Convention.

Its quite a hairy mess nd makes for great high-level (i.e. highly placed
leadership-type decisions).  Better than Star Trek (the new version).
It captures the feel of the best parts of the old series (character
conflict, ethical dilemmas, etc...)

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:17:16 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> At 07:25 AM 10/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >I would hope that they [the aviators] would be like the only survivor of the
> >Hiroshama and Nagasaki runs, who sometime back said, "I feel bad about all
> >the people who died, but we were at war."  And continued with someting like,
> >"I take some consolation from the millions who didn't have to die in the
> >prolonged battle that would have been required to subdue the Japanese
> >otherwise."
> 
> Pity that the latter isn't true, especially for the second A-bomb.
> 
> -- Rupert Boleyn

Unproven point.  We still have good reason to believe it WAS necessary
in the US military.  History be damned, I would not have wanted to be
the first on to the beaches of the Japanense mainland.  I would have
let the bombs fall.  It is fortunate that there was a rapprochment after
the war that allowed us to de-demonize the Japanese.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:33 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Flat Imperium (was RE: Re Campaigns)

The distance
> across the plane between these two stars is  9.220 parsecs and they are on
> the same level so the total distance is only 9.22 parsecs.  It is only a
> little over 2 parsecs further away than the one that looks like its right
> next to it.


I know.  I am making a point that you can't easily have the interesting
stuff that is really out there in Trav in 2D.

Sometimes things need to be fixed, Trav or not.  We spend hours talking
about other things yet the foundation is wrong.  Frankly I don't care if
anyone uses 3D or not, but the brighter players will ask questions and
the answer is that 2D is used for simplicity.

In the meantime I will come up with a mapable solution to this problem.
It may involve increases in the basic range of jdrive. 

Why is this such a problem? Because military campaigns will not be
fought the way they have been in Traveller with a 3rd D to use.  For
realistic military space campaigns the vagargies and expanded frontiers
of 3D must be used.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:12:23 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

At 04:20 PM 10/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
>My players and I were having a discussion...
>
>I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to take a poll:
>
>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
>
>We're curious...do people tend to use just one ruleset and its companion
>setting - or are people doing something like what we're doing (classic
>Traveller rules, Rebellion Setting).
>
>I'm not trying to start an argument over which is best ('cause its a moot
>point, we all have our favorites). Just wondering...
>
>For the record, here's mine:
>a) Favorite rules - Classic Traveller with DGPs Task System
>b) Favorite setting - Rebellion

Favourite rules - TNE et al, with some mods (home grown & from TW2K)
Favourite setting - RCES (TNE), with the late Rebellion/Hard Times a close
second (though I don't have the Hard Times book, blast it).


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:50:06 -0500
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

Are you certain that you don't want to start a general free-for-all with
fists in the air and everything.  It is a little bit as asking people what
religion they are :-)

a) Favorite rules: MegaTraveller 90%, TNE 9%, T4 1%
b) Favorite Millieu: Spinward Marches, 1105 (or am I repeating myself again...)

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

At 16:20 10/02/98 -0600, Andrew Akins wrote:
>My players and I were having a discussion...
>
>I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to take a poll:
>
>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
>
>We're curious...do people tend to use just one ruleset and its companion
>setting - or are people doing something like what we're doing (classic
>Traveller rules, Rebellion Setting).
>
>I'm not trying to start an argument over which is best ('cause its a moot
>point, we all have our favorites). Just wondering...
>
>For the record, here's mine:
>a) Favorite rules - Classic Traveller with DGPs Task System
>b) Favorite setting - Rebellion

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:16:59 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Jump Bomb

At 05:34 PM 10/02/98 -0500, Dan wrote:
>You would have to be really, really, REALLY close for a dumb jump
>bomb to work.  Its basically a mine.  It would be best if it had
>a det laser warhead or at least some sort of gravitically directed
>explosive jet (a la TDX).
>
>I read the old calcs of Nuke effectiveness and they are less than
>impressive.  These numerical calcs concur with the general feel 
>of the conclusions of "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons" (1962), A
>very interesting book which has recently been updated.  I don't have
>the update.
>
Apparently the mortality rate from radiation in the 200 rem range is much
higher than previously thought, especially in the likely post-nuking
environment, if only from stress related suppression of the body's immune
system.

From what I've read in later publications (most of which seem to have
become unavailible here now) some of the assumptions made for those
calculation are somewhat suspect.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:33:27 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires

>I was wondering if someone could tell me about "Pocket Empires". I'm
>developing an area of 15 planets. Jump technology is limited to Jump 2. The
>only way to get away from these planets is with a Jump 2 ship with enough
>fuel to make several Jump 2 jumps. Would "Pocket Empires" help me? What is
>in this product?
>
>-Shawn

Pocket Empires is a product designed to detail the economic and military
development of a group of co-ruled planets and allow comparing them to
other such groups.  It is quite complex and involved (although there are
several "simpler" options) and it could be quite useful if you are willing
(and enjoy) doing the "work" of development.  Generally, your perspective
is as the lleader (or succession of leaders, usually) who direct the
development to whatever extent possible.

If terms like Gross Domestic Product and Technological Uplift make your
heart pump, its for you.  In fact, your isolated group might be well suited
to be considered a "Pocket Empire" since one of the shortcomings in my
opinion is the lack of consideration of membership in a larger community.

Pete






Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:12:56 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: A new calendar for the new millenia (was RE: What CE means)

Steve:
[a thread that's getting really old snipped]
> Well, back before there was a web . . . yada yada gripe gripe . . .
> Pure conspiracy, I tell you!

Gotta love those.  Wanna here my theory about ICQ as a government spy
agency?

> If "common" era it the way its spelled now, so be it.  I have never used
> the
> term, nor will I.  Why don't we take 001-2001 A.D. as an opportunity to
> fix our calendars and all the tinkering the Julian, Gregorian, etc. have
> caused, add a year 0 as there ought to be, etc., and be done with the
> damn thing.

Here, here.  I'm all in favor of ending the debate and signing Steve's
petition to begin a new, "Year 2000 Compliant" (sorry, couldn't help it)
calendar on 001-2000.  I hate to propose it, but should we call it the "New
Era"?  How does this sort of thing get started?  A UN resolution?  We all
know how far those get...  Do I need to set myself up as Emperor and issue
and edict?  Sounds good...  All those in favor?

Nah, I nominate Marc Miller.

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:30 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

> And, lay off the aviators, they were just doing their jobs.

 They are trained to do this, and they stepped over the line because
they had the requirement to visually ID the helos and didn't properly do
it.  AWACS forgot to tell them two Army helos were in the region and
that prejudiced their recognition to the point that "it must be an
enemy." People in the my community know this, and even though I feel
mistakes will be made it is unforgivable.  Now I can't talk for the guys
that did this, but it physically pains me to think of being responsible
for the deaths of people because of my haste.  

I am glad you guys seem to cut them some slack though.  Its nice to know
someone has a bit of understanding of the difficulties involved.

> Actually, if you compare fratricides per aircraft involved, you will find
> its getting better not worse.  There are just more birds in the air and
> better coverage of what goes on over there.  The raw numbers keep going up,
> just as the number of planes keep going up, but the scaled numbers show that
> it's safer (at least from friendly fire) today than it ever has been.


True, but there are less of us so each mistake means more losses. 
Generally we are getting better every year with the new tech.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:38:54 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Patriotism (fwd)

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Moin Anders Backman,
> 



Regardless of politics I think the one thing that can be said is
whatever it is about Trav we are all birds of a feather.  We find
something in it.  

Just think how much it would suck knowing there was no one out there you
could tell any of these thoughts to, because no one cared.

We all have more in common than is immediatly apparent, and one man's
patriotism (always a dangerous word after Vedun and the Somme) really
relfects an idealism that is dying in the electronic age.

The better we know each other the better things will be in the future. 
I never could have met a trav player from Canada, Germany or even
Britain if it weren't for this computer/list.  And New Zealand?  Hah!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:37:04 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #126

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:28:39 -0500, "Robert Eaglestone"
<eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:

>I was explaining parts of Traveller to my new wife (who knew I had
>a Traveller fetish, but only recently has started asking questions
>about it (how come all of a sudden I feel like a member of a cult,
>bent on converting all to my point of view?)), when we realized that
>_Dragonriders of Pern_ has nothing in it that is non-Traveller 
>compatible.  There is sublight drive, a lost colony, bioengineering
>and telepathy psionics.  It could be purebred Traveller!

Hmmm.... Interesting idea, and one that I like - One of the last
Rule of Man colonies before the Long Night; it actually didn't
suffer much from the LN because it was intended to be an agrarian
society.  If it's recontacted and absorbed by the Third Imperium,
it's OK until the time of the Psionic Suppressions; if you can
keep it outside the borders (put it trailing of the 3I, spinward
of the 2KW?), it's playable in any era.  And remember that
Pernese dragon is not the same as Nuteman dragon - Pernese dragon
isn't edible.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #135
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 136



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

System Defense Boats (fwd)
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Warships (esort carriers) >
Re: System Defense Boats
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
RE: Patriotism
RE: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Blunt Trauma Damage
Re: Military roleplaying
Re: Patriotism
Traveller incarnations (was GURPS)
Re: IFF it worked that way...
RE: What CE means to me
RE: Jump Space
Re: Starship Economics
Couple Things
Re: Military Chaplians?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 22:55 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: System Defense Boats (fwd)

Moin Robert Eaglestone,

> I always pictured 400-ton beasties bristling with missiles and lasers.

	the pirate control ship. the missiles can even stop a cruiser
	with a bit of luck, and will be a big problem for the canon
	440 displacement ton corsair ship. 

> However, RSpake2064 mentioned the fighter-carrying corvette, and
> immediately I pictured a Mercenary cruiser with 4 fighters a la
> Broadsword, or a 1000-ton fighter carrier.  Does this make economic
> sense for system defense, or is it better to churn out merchant-sized
> patrol ships?

	Imho a 1G carrier with a PA and a long range laser and small
	bay of missiles, staying with the traders as fire support and a
	pack of fighters to engage the corsair and screen from enemy
	missiles, is a good escord but it will make a bad system defense.

	System defense does'nt need a carrier for small fighters.
	Fighters are either under close orbit comand, or on station at
	the highport or even in a naval base at gas giants. if a system
	depoys a lot of fighter logistic and maintenance could call for
	a dedicated in system carrier. But as long as fighters are under
	orbital comand or at the highport, and there is no defense for
	the gas giants, you seldom need a dedicated carrier. Pack it in
	large cargo shuttle, if you need.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:41:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

 
> > >"I take some consolation from the millions who didn't have to die in the
> > >prolonged battle that would have been required to subdue the Japanese
> > >otherwise."
> > 
> > Pity that the latter isn't true, especially for the second A-bomb.

Hmmm? How fast would the surrender have come? Do you think LeMay
would have stopped firebombing while they twiddled their thumbs? The
raids already happening to Japan were pretty bloody awful, and
repeated on a daily basis. I suppose if total casualties are what
is of interest, it might be useful to figure out how many (average)
would happen per day of conventional war, then figure out in how
many days they'd have to surrender to at least break even. I bet
you'd have to get them to surrender pretty quickly...

I read in Tennozan that the British were planning on invading
Malaya around the beginning of September. The Japanese commanders
there had standing orders to kill all POWs, and send their troops to
where ever the front would be. There were something like 300,000
POWs in Malaya at the time--and they were on _our_ side.

Also, if Okinawa was any model at all (reasonable asumption) then
even a month or two of land war would've killed more on both sides.
It's fair to say the the bomb wasn't required to end the war, just
that it hastened the end, for whatever reason you choose to belive.

Regardless, I suppose you have to say to yourself, how many of the
enemy are you willing to trade for even one of your own side--a brother,
son, father? I'd say none. Hell, I have friends who might not
exist if things went differently at all (their dad was in the
process of being transfered to the pacific as infantry bound for
Japan).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:24:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Warships (esort carriers) >

kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) wrote:

>Moin Richard,
>> why not build a corvette that carries a single squadron of six fighters. it
>                  ^^^^^^^^
>> would have the fighters adn some support for them as well...  very cheap to
>> build and whould tie up much of your naval assets in the long run while
>>still
>> supplying a fighter escort for that company that donated all that money in
>> support of your policies...
>
>	S small ship comes in mind with 6 missile bays able to host a fighter
>	when empty. So the missile bay could also used as a hangar. The ship
>	would have about a dozen fire controls, 4 pd lasers, 4 sandcasters,
>	moderate armor and good evasion. A Missile corvette able to pick up
>	remaining fighters after battle. The problem is of course that the
>	typical usage of a missile corvette is to jump out of battle after
>	the missiles have been delivered. Corvettes are to light to stand
>	in the line of battle for long.

I have a draft design for a patrol carrier but need to arm it yet (to at
least Patrol cruiser standard). It has a launch tube and 6 fighter bases
supporting most combinations between 6 x 30dt fighter and 18 x 10dt
fighter. Any suggesteions on weapons (TL12) would be appreciated - I have a
spec for volume left plus power available.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:46:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

 
> However, RSpake2064 mentioned the fighter-carrying corvette, and
> immediately I pictured a Mercenary cruiser with 4 fighters a la
> Broadsword, or a 1000-ton fighter carrier.  Does this make economic
> sense for system defense, or is it better to churn out merchant-sized
> patrol ships?

For system defense, or routine patrols (anti-piracy, etc.)? For the
former I don't think small craft are even useful, much less economic
:-) For the latter they are OK. That said I always really liked the
CT SDB design.

If gas giant refueling made sense, then rules that allowed little
tiny ships to kill huge ones during refueling might help make sense
of them. But as has been discussed over and over, GG refueling makes
no military sense.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:11:22 -0600
From: "Schmidt AA (Anthony) at MSXSSC" <AS186753@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

>   I have become convinced the word 'flank' doesn't appear in the Marine
> vocabulary.  This is not a problem when wading in from the ocean, since
> there is no such thing as flank when taking a beachhead, however once
> inland
> the same tactics seem to apply--overwhelm through superior firepower and
> mass of bodies.   Rule of thumb: take the hill--send in the Marines; go
> around the hill and leave the enemy to surrender later--send in the Army.
> 
>    ObTrav: Ditto.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Harold
> 
> 
	The theory that marines just charge the hill and allow their bodies
to pile up is totally false.  If you look at historical references to most
major battles you will find that the ratio of marines lost is less than that
of the army, or the enemy.  They have been known on several historical
occasions to hold against far superior forces, with just a handful of
marines.  If I were going into battle, I would much rather go in with the
longer, superior training of a marine, than that of their other military
colleagues.  Marines are generally well trained and disciplined troops,
though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally controlled
recklessness.

	Tony

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:19:02 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

In a message dated 2/10/98 18:59:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, igor@ames.net
writes:

<< a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
 b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
  >>

I would have to say for A: TNE (Most detailed rules set, but VERY [too???]
complex)
For B: Classic Trav (Spinward Marches)

However, as an aside, I would have to say, if asked which I would use today,
it would be T4...but I am seriously bothered by the lack of a coherent space
combat system at the present.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:26:14 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

MegaTraveller set in 1118 and moving on.

Long live Lucan.  (Til someone puts a bullet in his brain)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:27:26 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Patriotism

Semo:
[long, well-reasoned argument about topicality snipped]
> The way I play my Third Imperium, I think that adventure would be a
> strong
> reason for joining the military.  In the subsector I run my game in there
[good points about masses of sentient sheep snipped]

This is only one possible motivation for "joinin' up."  But a good one from
a sci-fi and space opera perspective.  Don't try to press all of your
military types into this mold though, but I have to take exception to the
"for education and training" concept -- once you leave your homeworld,
what's the likelihood that you will ever see it again (to return to put your
hard-earned skills to use)?  And I don't me dying for the "starburst" but
just the logistics of getting back home once mustered out in the next
sector...

[great adventure tie-ins for unethical behavior by Imperial nobility
snipped]

Added to the list of things to write: Rebels' Handbook.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:10:11 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)

Andrew:

Since you asked so politely:

> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
c) Currently playing?

a) T4 (modified)
b) Rebellion/Hard Times
c) T4 (modified) in M:0

> For the record, here's mine:
> a) Favorite rules - Classic Traveller with DGPs Task System
> b) Favorite setting - Rebellion

I guess you assumed that everyone would be using/playing in their
favorite...  Not necessarily.  We chose T4 and M:0 with the thought that we
would better be able to appeal to new players or those returning to the fold
after a long hiatus, as it is the currently in-print line...

Question:  DGP's Task System?  I have waaay too many LBBs and magazines that
I've recently re-purchased, but I'm not familiar with that.  If it resembles
MT's, thanks anyway.

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:41:25 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>
>One of the easiest things for anyone who isn't facing a firing squad to
>
>say. 

[snip]
>
>While 'I was just following orders' may not be ordained  as a legal
>
>defense against atrocities, the only alternative is effectively suicide.
>
>
>
>Morally right and dead is still just plain dead.

I have never, thank God, come anywhere near a firing squad.  I suspect
that I might well commit war crimes under direct orders and threat of
immediate execution. History records that many people do, and I'm more
cowardly than most.

But my great aunt chose to resist the Nazis, knowing the consequences were
almost certainly torture and death.  If a 16 year old girl can chose
almost certain death to rescue total strangers, maybe I could find some of
the same courage.

My great aunt survived the medical experiments at Ravensbruck for long
enough to be liberated. An amazing woman, and one of my heroes.

>
>
>Now, while sticking player characters into such situations might be, well,
>
>interesting, from the GM's point of view, _always_ leave them some way
>
>out.

Aw, do I hafta? :-)

I usually do, but sometimes there is no other way out after a run of bad
decisions. That's life.  

When we were much younger, my brother suicided his favorite character
defending some women and children from pirates.  Opened fire from inside a
rescue ball - and kept firing instead of heading for the airlock because
he thought there were more pirates on the next deck. There weren't, but he
wasn't sore about losing the character, just said it was the right thing
to do and he'd do it again, then rolled up another character.

I miss playing with him. He has a sense of morality missing from most
D&D-trained gamers. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:53:35 -0600 (CST)
From: searles@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Blunt Trauma Damage

I want to say thanks for all who helped clear up some confusion on BTD.  But 
tell me if this sounds right.  If I shoot two people (1 with armour & 1 with 
out armour) with a pistol that does -1 for damage.  And I roll a 1 for both 
(they take 0 pts of damage) the person with armour is still going to take 1 pt 
of damage for BTD???  Does this not sound right to anyone besides me???



Thanks,


Cygnus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:46:02 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

>> >My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
>> >Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or
you
>> >are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most
MT
>> >campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.
>>
- ---------> Yeah, it's so limiting that must be why you never see charcters
in the military portrayed in science fiction literature or movies...
or even on TV, where you'd think you might find shows about the military
crew of a military ship running into all sorts of weird things on a weekly
basis...

: )

>
>The problem with playing military with "few options" is a direct result
>of poor knowledge of what it is like to be in a military.  Players need
>to want to be a captain of a starship or a Marine Force Commander. To do
>it right they need to study and learn, as command skills do not come
>easily.


- --------> I haven't been in the military, but I see it as full of all kinds
of potential. Given a moderately hardware-interested group, there's all
kinds of things you can do, whether a ship crew, a small ground pounder
unit, whatever. Lots of people played Twilight2000, and there you were
limited to only 1 planet...and there's a whole lotta people play some game
called "Mechwarrior" where you have a bunch of military types roaming around
during a civil war. Not Traveller, but it's still  a military focus...

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:02 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Patriotism

> What the hell has this to do with traveller?


Maybe his flag waving a bit off, but it does have a bit to do with Trav. 

I am developing a campaign where ideals like these mean a lot.  Not that
they are sacred or anything, but my campaign addresses the issues and
things that bind societies together.

We are the WEST. (Even New Zealand.)  Descended from Europe with all her
well known faults.  

Although I wear a US flag on my shoulder, don't doubt for a minute I
would personally blow the shit out of anyone who fucked with my blood, 
that "blood" being all of YOU.  I would fight and maybe die for you and
so would ALL my service bros-this I know for a fact.  (Even the guys
going to the airlines.  They are just tired of getting shit on by a
country that has no use for soldiers in peacetime. See R. Kiplings
"Tommy.")  That is why I get disturbed by hotdogs and careless F-15
guys- you get the wrong message about what is going on when WE are not
responsible custodians of our collective "treasures."

Generally there is a very strong vein of honor and duty still in the US
military that our current society cannot comprehend.

If we(US forces) feel this way then Imperial troops, inculcated for 1100
years(-100 of those barrcks wars) are going to feel similar if not
stronger.  They have a lot in common in the Imperial ideal, even if they
are from disparate worlds.  In a sense the Imperial identity is loyal to
no one world wheras the colonial/sector forces are.  

What about in C 0?  There is no unified Imperial Force, although Cleon
is doing his best to make it happen.  Of course, it does in time.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 20:21 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Traveller incarnations (was GURPS)

Moin Anders Backman,

> I use the MT setting (currently at 1120) as a backdrop for my mostly
> civilian Spinward marches campaign.

	Playing MT in the spinwards is like WWII in the US. The group
	is not affected, as long as they dont fish in muddy waters.

> TNE could have been a good start where it not for the VIRUS and the general
> focus on small ninja teams with wetsuitlike clothings whose mission was to
> kill some TED (kind of like the CIA secret war in central america) and the
> portrayal of traders as a generic group of villains (most civilian
> Traveller campaigns previously dealt with Traders in CT & MT). I couldn't
> figure out was players was supposed to do beside playing "SEALS in space".

	When TNE came out our campain was at 1128 in Rurevayn, and followers
	of the Real Strephon. The "alles is kapput" in TNE is a strong plot
	line, where player groups can become heros over night. Also traders
	are not so "generic" as first thought about. Limited starport
	and overhaul capacities, make it likely that they align to one of
	the side. They could become Guild members (mafia) try to arrange
	with a TED or even a Vampire. Act as a raiding corsair (RC) or
	ignore everything and stay in the Regency. But we are not playing
	what "players was supposed to do". Avoid playing book variations.

> The rules were the best ever though.

	The space combat (BR/BL) is grandious, but the interpersonal
	combat is overcomplicated. Our group has a rule mix of TNE
	task system, simplified MT personal combat, and TNE space
	combat. But as usual - rules make bad games - stories make
	them enjoyable.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:26 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

>   It was an unfortunate accident (which happens in all walks of life) and
> should be moved on past...out of respect for those who gave thier lives doing
> what they thought was right, if for no other reason.


True.  One of the guys lives here, on this base.  He is getting on with
his life and is still flying(although they don't let him shoot things
any more.)

You fellas don't know the combat aviation community very well.  There is
a lot of ego on all sides, and he is reffered to as "that guy lives on
this base."  They screwed up.  The problem is there is a hint of "I want
to get my kill too before I go home from the sandbox."  And that is a
direct product of the pilot ego and is intolerable.   

I really shouldn't say more about this subject because my offhand
comments have developed into a touchy subject and it is off topic. 

Now let me rephrase myself to get at the real meaning behind all of
these comments I've been making.

I have been very bothered by the deaths of 20 odd tourists in Italy
several days ago at the hand of a US pilot, apparently hotdogging in the
Dolomite mountains.  He flew under a gondola cable, sending the tourists
to their deaths so he could be "cool."  Some of our folks pull this s**t
wherever we go, and it is not right.  If we are going to send our forces
around the world and impose on other nations then we better damn be
willing to die for THEM and at least control our urges.

BTW, I have probably 1000 hours of time at less than 500' and over
450mph, and these routes are meticulously plotted.  He knew the cables
were there and was being reckless.  

So on behalf of all the folks out there I just wanted to say that I am
sorry.  And it sucks.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:31:13 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: What CE means to me

Greg:
> >
> >You have to ask yourself two questions; 1) How many people are on >this
> >
> planet, and 2) How many are Christian?  I think common era is >more 
> appropriate, and I like it. 
> >
> 
> But Dad, why do they call it Common Era?  What happened to go from 
> Before the Common Era to the Common Era?  Why is that time so 
> significant?  Dad?

Was it?  What earth-shaking political change occurred then?  How 'bout we
date from the time Istanbul was taken, and made into Istanbul.  Or go back
further and date from the aborted sacrifice-attempt of Isaac (did I get the
Christianized name right?), since that's a date most of us can agree on, if
we can determine it?  Most scholars agree that you don't even have Christ's
birthday right...

Better yet, you keep your calendar, I'll keep mine.  ObTrav: "Let's see,
today is..."  Hmmm.  What format do y'all use for dates?  I append a series
of three lower case Is onto the end, to differentiate them from other weird
strings of numbers...  FoEx, my players arrived on Khusgurlu and were
summarily arrested to smuggling arms to rebels on 138-050iii.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:44:24 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Jump Space

Kenji:

[amusing pharmaceutical-related, rp incident censored]

> Shame!  Shame!  Junkie fiend!  You think role-playing drug abuse is
> FUNNY,
> dontcha!  What about all the FAMILY VALUES that T4 is dedicated to?

Is that what T4 was dedicated to?  I thought it was us: you, me, and TML,
and non-TML players alike.  Family values *generally* means dedicated to
keeping family together, avoiding divorce, and, nevermind, what the heck to
"family values" have to do with FANTASY?

From the tone of the escapade, it didn't sound like *abuse* to me, but
somebody doing an ugly job that had to be done - being the only one
qualified to do it - the only way he could.  You drink caffeine to wake up,
don'tcha?  Smoke?  A little stronger stuff isn't much different.

Take a pill...  ;-)  [That's humor, my friend.  We're all adults here.]

>  I've
> just about had it with you lowlife liberals cluttering up the list.  Why
> don't you just all go back to demonic training programs like D&D?

Are you being haunted, Kenji?  One of the great anti-role-players just died
off... see this months Pyramid for details.  [More humor, in case that went
unnoticed.]

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:57:00 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

Marc Wrote;
>In a message dated 98-02-09 17:57:31 EST, you write:
>
><< Could someone give me some pointers to where I can find info on the
> costs of starship operations?   >>
[snip]
> MERCHANT SHIP REVENUES
>Item	Income
>High Passage	Cr10,000
>Middle Passage	8,000
>Low Passage	1,000
>Cargo (per ton)	1,000
>Mail (if fitted)	25,000

What is the cost of Mail fittings; This needs to be defined in this section
or in Starship Construction.  There also needs to be a Quantity or max for
Mail (or is it one unit at Kcr 25?) or everyone would just carry Mail.

Above should say "Freight". Per Below;

>	Freight designates goods carried for a fee by a ship; Cargo is
>trade goods
>bought by the ship owner and carried as speculation.

[snip]

>	Base Cost: Cr4,000 per ton.

Ian Whitchurch posted a long Economic message a while back that proposed
using four categories of goods for speculative cargo.  Basically, all that
changes is the base price and, instead of adding/subtracting cr1000 it
adds/subtracts a percentage of base.

I still have his email (and some of our subsequent discussion) and I think
its a good idea.  Let me know if you want the original or a digest of the
four categories.

He also proposed increasing freight fees based on the number of parsecs
travelled in one week;

Jump 2  Cr. 1250/ton
Jump 3  Cr. 1500/ton

This makes a lot of sense since speed (even relative between one week or
two) should come at a premium.  Jump 4 "couriers" may be a typical PC ship
under this scheme if the freight price continues to rise.  This change also
doesn't disrupt Imperial history either.

I'm running an economically driven campaign and this aspect definitely
needs to be "medium background" for a campaign.  Ian has some great ideas,
but they are too complicated for easy use.  A middle ground needs to be
found between the good Merchant Prince method and his more detailed methods
which involve a trade matrix for every two worlds involved.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:05:45 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Couple Things

Jeff Z. said:
(In response to whoever said)

>>Love it or hate it, the ad in the new Pyramid magazine has to be seen.  
>
<deleted>
>
>>It gave me chills.
>
>Perfect.  Absolutely perfect.  I hope to hell this was Loren's
>brainchild - I'd hate to think how much SJG would otherwise have
>to have overpaid to have some marketing hack agency come up with
>something so utterly perfect, yet so utterly simple.

Steve's Idea, actually. All I did was supply the name of the typeface (sort
of...they don't make it anymore, so we had to use a modern substitute).

And, later on:

>Dan Smith is going to be illustrating part (if not all) of the GURPS 
>Traveller book and has asked what style artwork says "Traveller".  He's 
>excited about the project and looking forward to helping produce a 
>product that will please as many people as possible -- especially the die 
>hard Traveller fans.

It may be helpful at this point to remind people just who the Art Director is
at Steve Jackson Games these days (some guy named Wiseman, I heard) and who
will be teaching Dan Smith what Traveller is supposed to look like. 

I often think my most important contribution to Traveller was hiring Bill
Keith, lo these many years ago. 

And, responding to whoever said:

>>With Steve Jackson, they could drop Traveller support the moment something
>>else comes along.
>
>This is true.  But Steve Jackson is a business man, for the most part, 
>and Traveller seems to be a hot property at the moment.

Gentlebeings: Steve is a Traveller fan. Long term. Dyed in the wool. He makes
some of you look like pikers by comparison.

An Example: He saw some of the teaser TNS releases I am having put onto the
GURPS: Traveller Web page (you'll see them soon enough), and he came into my
office to tell me that they made his hair stand on end in excitement. And he
was not kidding -- he had goosebumps. His eyes glowed. He wanted to talk
possibilities - and he left five minutes later still excited. Unless I screw
up big time, Traveller is going to be a GURPS product line for a long time.
Make of it what you will.

Loren Wiseman
     SJG-AD+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:54:20 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplians?

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 07:23 AM 10/02/98 -0600, Vic wrote:
> >In the Traveller universe I compare the Imperium somewhat to the Roman
> >Empire.  Therefore depending on the beliefs of the leadership, there
> >could be religous groups that are persecuted, there could be wars over
> >religous reasons, there could be an established Imperial religon and the
> >outlawing of anyone who didn't subscribe to it.  Many interesting
> >scenarios for players who enjoy that type atmosphere.

Umm, can you name an example of a religious inspired Roman fight before
300AD?Not flaming, but would really like to hear of such.

> Until the Christians started making a huge fuss in the later Empire the
> Romans were fairly tolerant, provided you didn't go round denying the
> divintity of the Emperor.

As I mentioned in another post in this thread, they certainly were.  Temples to
even Isis, Greek and Norse gods in Rome even in 300 A.D.

> The Christians were perscuted because they
> started saying that their god was the only one, etc, etc. This caused civil
> unrest _because_ of the religious diversity of the Empire, not because of
> repression of non official religions. The Roman Empire covered such a large
> area and so many different cultures that it counldn't afford to enforce
> only one religion, until Christianity was very common.

Yup.  Romans allowed for 'conquered' territories to manage much of their own
affairs (one reason they could control so much territory), in much the same way
that the Imperium allows for much autonomy within a system - although this of
course changed over time.

> BTW the Christians
> threw Pagans to the Lions once they were in charge.

Interesting stuff about Nero on History Channel last week.  When the big fire
happened, apparently Nero blamed Christians as they were the most unpopular
people in town at the moment (although many suspect Nero's agents of causing
the fire so he could build his new palace in the place).  The report said that
Christians hadn't been singled out for the lions before the fire.

Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #136
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 137



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Chamaxi and Shriekers
RE: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Starship Economics
RE: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)
RE: What CE means
Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
RE: What CE means to me
Re: Military roleplaying
Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium:What deadeye means about it all (Interesting!)
Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.  (was RE: What CE m eans)
Re: A new calendar for the new millenia (was RE: What CE means)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 1998 16:59 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Chamaxi and Shriekers

Rob Prior Spake:

"It's a doable idea.  I'm not certain why you'd want to make the change,
but suspect it is part of a long-term plot-line you're developing.  Care
to fill us in?"

Okay, the cat's out of the bag.  I'm a closet Taoist and
Chaotist: butterflies on Buddha's shoulders flap their
wings, and the weather pattern that created the storm that 
sunk the Spanish Armada is seeded.

I LIKE synergy and remote connections; lots of humans do --
see how some of us point to two words from two languages
and try to link their cultures?

- ---

I want them back in space.  I want people, perhaps the player characters,
to spend time as their wards, developing their technology and world
slowly, forming a tiny Chamaxi Scout Corps from the few that are
ready for it and laying groundwork for the others.

An emerging starfaring culture, to teach, study, and help.  There may
be enormous political implications.

I want them back on Chamax.  As a jump start for their race, they
have a precedent for colonisation, a homeworld to analyze, and
possibly distant relations in cold sleep approaching Chamax'
neighbors.  This is an urgent motivation to get some into space
quickly, to involve the players in saving Chamax culture, maybe
to be instruments in aiding the recovery of a civilisation.

Definitely a means to gain an entire cultures' alliance.  Perhaps
exclusive trade rights.  How about the artifacts on Chamax?

I want this to blossom beyond a single world, to add a new variable
in an already complex equation, to tip the scales in a new direction.
Something like:

year
- -2	Discover Chamax plague
+0	Discover Shriekers
+1	TL3; School established
+2	Shrieker visitation to Chamax 
+5	TL4; Chamaxi Scout Corps established
	Expeditions to Chamax continues
	Civil government established
	Nomadic tribes recruited and educated
	Political battles between Chamax and InStarSpec
	Exploitation by InStarSpec; litigation begins
	Chamaxi coldsleep ship lands on Garoo with live Chamaxi
+6	Chamaxi survey Chamax from orbit
	Chamaxi visit 567-908
	Chamaxi set up bases, build starport (D) in 567-908
	Scout way station built on 567-908
+9	TL6; Additional Chamaxi coldsleep ships land; some good, some ugly.
	First full Chamaxi Scout class graduates

+15	TL7; Chamax divide & colonise along clan lines and numbers:
thru
+25		Clan	Clans		Colony
		------- --------	------
		Aleph	9		567-908
		Daleth	7		Flammarion
		Teth	7		Walston
		Samekh	6		planet in Bowman system
		Qoph	4		Debarre

	...with the Old Chamaxi spread out among them as teachers
	and engineers.

Anyone have additional ideas?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:52:26 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

Richard:
> Semo wrote:
> >What does C.E. mean?
> 
> Common Era, it's used by those who don't want to acknowledge Christ with
> the
> use of A.D. (Anno Domini, Medieval Latin for "in the year of the Lord")
> or
> are afraid to offend those who don't want to.  B.C.E. is Before the
> Common
> Era (B.C.).

Is that so wrong?  For Muslims, it has nothing to do with not wanting to
"acknowledge" Christ (p.b.u.h. - who was a full-fledged, virgin-born,
prophet is his own right, given the power authority to lead the Ummah
against the unbelievers in the Last War), but rather that we don't think
that any HUMAN was ever important enough to base a calendaring system
around.  If this offends, please grant us your official, er, was it
"indulgence"?  FWIW, aren't all years "years of the Lord?"  ;-)  Has it
bothered anyone else that there's still a "C" somewhere in it?  Heh.  I
cannot speak for the heathens, athiests, or agnostics in the crowd.

ObTrav: I think it very politically savvy for the Imperium to use it's own
founding as Year Zero (besides being binarily correct) -- it avoids all the
petty wrangling inherent in any other choice.  My Roman history is terribly
dusty and rusted, but didn't they use basically the same rationale for their
calendar?  What possessed the Mayans (no apolitical correctness intended ;-)
to choose the date they did?  Did they sacrifice anyone who disagreed with
the choice?  Or was that the Aztecs?  After all we now have the "Ministry of
Calendar Compliance" and who knows, besides espionage, maybe the MCC engages
in human sacrifice...  Those darn Imperials.

Flames, anyone?

> FYI, medieval is a term used for the dark ages by those who don't want
> people to think they were so bad.  We have all kinds of terms like this.
> Weird, no?

What was so bad about the Middle Ages?  I'm rather enjoying my survey of
Medieval literature this semester (my wife's convinced that I am only a
student because I can't deal with the withdrawal of not being in class
anymore; it's really because I want an MBA.  Right?).  The literature of the
"day" (okay, millenia) is rather enlightened, eclectic, and accepting.  Oh,
you must be thinking of the Spanish Inquisition...  The Moors (good Muslim
boys, mostly) tried to put an end to all that, but Columbus came along and
kicked them out...  Or was that Ferdinand/Isabella?  Just kidding!

ObTrav: speaking of the holy Roman King and Queen, does anyone know who the
Empress of the Third Imperium is?  I can't think of any canonical references
to her...

ObTrav: what are the marriage practices of the Imperial nobility?
Victorian?  Eclectic?  Confused?  (Don't ask what prompted that question...)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:44:43 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

Marc wrote:

>Thanks for your analysis. I have re-labelled the chart to show that the
table
>produced freight (goods carried for a fee). An unlimited quantity of Cargo
is
>available... which makes sense... its the primary product of the world.
>
>I notice that the Cargo selling table is empty... I have yet to fill it in.

Marc, a question and a comment.

Q:  Does this mean that cargo for hire is now to be referred to as Freight
and speculative cargo is now to be referred to as Cargo?

C:  You might want to note under specialized trade (like in CSC on p 50-52)
that the GM needs to use some discretion with hand-made and small and/or
high tech items.  For example: Business Rings, even in a fancy jeweler's
box, would take up less than 25 cc's.  A Subsidized Merchant Captain with an
empty cargo hold could pile in beau coup Business Rings (over 100,000,000 of
them).  I know that's an extreme example, that's why I chose it.  As to
hand-made items they would be available in smaller lots, just because they
are hand made.  A framed canvas painting might only average about 100,000
cc's.  Can you see going to a painter and buying 28,000 paintings?  I know,
I know, it's ridiculous, but if you don't put it in, there will be some
barracks room lawyers beating GM's over the head with it.

Also don't forget that old joke about the businessman/tourist who went over
seas and found a little old craftsman (I guess you'd say artisan) carving
statues on the beach.

You haven't heard it?

He goes up to the little old craftsman is working and admires the work.  The
old man hands him the statuette and says "Go ahead and look at it, it's
native wood, you won't break it."

The businessman is amazed at the detail, and asks the craftsman, "How much
do you want for it?"

The craftsman smiles and says, "For you just $10."

The businessman whips out his wallet and gives the craftsman $10.  Smiling
with glee, he asks, "How many of these do you think you could make in a
month?"

The craftsman says, "That one took me about an hour, if I worked 8 hours a
day 6 days a week, I could probably turn out about 200 of them in a month."

The businessman's heart soars, because he knows that with his contacts back
home, he could easily sell 200 of them every month for $23 apiece without
any problem.  He calculates that the shipping would only be about $3 apiece
so he could turn a profit of $2,000 per month.  A net increase in his income
of $24,000 per year just for noticing this little old man while on his
vacation.

So, he turns to the craftsman and asks, "And if I were to buy 200 of them
per month how much would you let me have them for?"

The craftsman looks somewhat puzzled and thinks for a moment then replies,
"$25 apiece."

The businessman is amazed, and asks, "Haven't you ever heard of a volume
discount?  Why would it cost me two and a half much to buy them in bulk than
it did to buy just this one?"

The wizened little old craftsman smiled and replied, "The figurine you hold
only cost you $10 because I could see how much you liked it.  And I had fun
making it.  The 200 figurines per month would cost you $25 apiece because
then it wouldn't be fun, it would be work."

Ok, so the comment included a joke.

One last thing, thanks for the sneak peak.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:10:13 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)

Bruce:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
> > Building a way out is, well, cheating, isn't it?  :^)
> 
> No it's not. Your player characters are dead if they can't talk their way
> out of it. THAT'S the way out I was talking about. They have a chance.
> Players tend to get pissed at being put into inescapable traps, unless
> they're tired of playing those characters.

Part of the story is what your players want/expect.  Unless I've discussed
it with my players in advance, the acid test for me is whether it would fly
at a convention as a tournament adventure.  The "everybody dies" plot may
work for lame games like Paranoia... but even Cthulhu and Dark Conspiracy
players expected a certain amount of heroism, including survivability from
their games (not necessarily for every character, I guess).

A telling quote (against my argument!) is from a Millennium's End game
[where the characters are generally supposed to be hard-bitten, cynical, and
self-centered]: "Of course, I'll go save the girl...  I'm a hero!"  This, of
course, as all GMs know was *not* what was supposed to happen, and should
have been expected as it was unexpected, but... they all pulled through,
mostly unscathed.

I guess it's "Have fun!" even if that means your favorite character bites
the big one.  Of course, you can play in a campaign like the "X-Files" where
"nobody ever really dies."

> Building a way out of the trap in the campaign planning stage is merely
> prudent GM'ing. The object of the game is _not_ to pit GM vs.
> Players...that gets real old real fast. 

Amen!  I hate nothing worse than playing in someone else's game who's out to
prove they're "smarter" then me (first of all, this is not hard to do), and
secondly, especially if you run the universe...

> Of course, having said that building an escape is prudent, I have yet to
> see the group of PC's who didn't see another way out...;-)

Yeah.  Complete agree.  Here's an example that makes neither point
whatsoever, but I felt like sharing:

GM: What?
PC: How hard would it be to jump into the APC?
GM: You want to storm a moving APC?
PC: Well, if it's do-able...
GM: <pulls totally impossible task from thin air>
[clatter of dice]
PC: <pulls equally impossible success roll from thin air>
GM: Umm.  You manage to clamber over the side, but drop your MP-5 in the
process.  It's mangled in the tracks.
PC: *shrug* Okay. I draw my Glock and shoot the .50 gunner, then the driver.
GM: The loader will try to clobber you over the head with a half-full belt
of .50 shells.
[clatter of dice, marginal success, 2d+3 damage rolled]
PC: Ouch.  I guess you decided I didn't see him, huh?  I shoot the loader,
the gunner, then the driver...

Will wonders never cease?  Sometimes PCs are like cockroaches...  

[The author needs a nap. -ed.]

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:48:44 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: What CE means

Steve:
[innocents omitted to protect them]
> I beg to differ.  Its "Christian Era."  Or so they taught me in every
> educational institution I've been to.  It was viewed as more politically

If I were you, and you paid for your education, I would demand a full
refund.  If you attended strictly public institutions: well, you sure got
what you paid for.  Any history professor with a clue and a bona fide degree
from any accredited university besides Mary Kay's Mail Order School O' What
We Thunk Happened would have corrected your obviously interpolated
misconception.

ObTrav: how does accreditation work for 3i-era institutions?  Is it more
"medieval" in that reputation is the only guiding light?

> correct
> than "Anno Domini" - which means "in the year of our lord" -
> understandably a
> problem when not everyone adopts the christian interpretation of Jahweh
> as

How does "Christian Era" change that connotation?  I find it even more
annoying, oppressive, and contemptible.  It implies that the last millennia
was driven by Christ (p.b.u.h.) himself.  How could he do this from heaven?
(Sorry, Muslim belief that will likely be lost on most readers.)  Most of
the technical progress was made by self-proclaimed atheistic scientists.
The rest, well, is Western society really "progress"?

ObTrav: are most societies bi-calendarial?  Or only those elements that have
to deal with outsiders regularly?  How much does different day/night cycles
impact your games, depending on the world visited, of course?

> 'their' lord.  The Imperial Calender Enforcement guys, proper name
> escapes me,
> might have their own version, as might the real world, but its "Christian
> era."
> After all, anyone is free to deny that jesus christ is his lord, but its
> hard to
> deny the impact of christianity on the western world.

Impact?  Heh.  Mail me privately for the flame.  I'll spare the list.

> Although 313 A.D. would be a better starting point since this was the
> time of
> the Edict of Milan issued, making Christianity the only religion to be
> practiced
> in the Roman Empire.  BTW, I was suprised to learn that even this 'late',
> in
> Rome at the time of the edict, there were temples to such varied deities
> as Isis
> and even some Norse gods (the work of the Varangian Guard, no doubt).

Once again your lack of education fails you.  The Edict of Milan did NOT
make Christianity the only religion practiced by the Roman Empire, nor even
the "state" religion.  All that the Edict of Milan did was to make it LEGAL
to practice Christianity as a religion and to make it illegal to
discriminate against Christians (assuming they don't make asses of the
themselves on mailing lists).  Those temples still exist, BTW.

ObTrav: what kind of discrimination laws exist in the Imperium?  If the 3i
is non-interventionist as we are led to believe, then local governments
could have all kinds of inhumane policies in place...  Funny: to be more
concerned with calendar compliance than human rights.  I'm sorry I thought
of that, but it does remind me if current US foreign policy.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:12:53 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

AolerTNE:
>   Now now now... we seem awfully defensive, don't we?  "Most" of the
planet
> might not acknowledge my Lord Jesus, but the vast majority of the western
> world does.  YOU live with it.  

Really?  What were the statistics about the number of practicing,
church-going, God-fearing denizens of the West?  How many are bar-hopping,
butt-humping, and Sabbath-breaking instead?  (Or sleeping off the
after-effects thereof... ;-)  I guess you don't believe in democracy, eh,
when it doesn't suit?  I thought the moral majority couldn't be wrong...
*evil grin*

Hmm, difficult to find, but ObTrav: how many of you folks have used cultural
conflicts to cause tension for your PCs?  Either in a contact with
primitives context or in a "civilized" setting where the PCs just don't
conform with the norms and are ostracized, beaten, jailed, or just denounced
as complete boobs?  Can you share any good ideas for making my PCs lives
miserable?  They just slew my pet Althaxi, after all (or so they think)...

> Noone denies there was technical progress after the fall of Rome.  But it
was
> a much more illiterate and savage time than the Pax Romana enjoyed for so
> long.  Much of Roman culture and civilization was lost and Rome *was* the
> "world."

Really?  Where'd y'all steal algebra, architecture, and intact copies of
original Greek and Roman works from?  Not Rome...  There are those "Roman"
numerals nobody uses anymore in favor of the Arabic numerals (how'd they get
called that? the Arabs don't use 'em...)  Rome might be the world you
remember, but if you think it *was* the world, then there's this really big
Wall in China I'd like to sell you an authentic piece of.  Gotta love all
the burning, pillaging, rapine, and rape that Pax Romana brought to my
peaceful, singing Celtic ancestors.  They even had the gaul (sorry, had to
use that pun!) to leave the Brits on *OUR* islands!!!  (Apologies to
peaceful, nonflammable citizens of the UK who may unnecessarily be offended
by my distantly Irish humor.)

I'm sure that Chaucer, Sturluson, Dante, and de Troyes would agree with you
about the Middle Ages being a much darker and more illiterate time.  Oh, and
some guy named Pythagorus might have some interest, too.  I guess if you're
only counting West-of-What? tradition it might not be as bright as, say,
MTV, Ellen, and Titanic.  Nah, I'll go back to Bede.  (Sorry for that pun,
too.)  Oh, some guy named Shakespeare wants to talk to you...

ObTrav: how many other institutions, world governments, and corporations in
your Traveller (besides 3i, several Vilani bureaux, etc.) lay claim to
pre-Long Night sources for their justification and authority?  Just
curious...  Reading some of Sturluson (a Christian recording traditional
oral tales of the Norse for those who've not read him) who laid claim for
some of the Norse mythos all the way back to pre-Grecian times for his moral
authority (Odin = Hector? How odd.) gave me the inspiration for this
question...


Oh, hey, AolerTNE, how's it feel to be paying another $2 bucks a month to be
LAME?

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:25:55 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: What CE means to me

Scott:
[other innocent bystanders politely omitted]
> 	What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards under
> 	this
> new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
> leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore, or certain ethnic notations,
> pretty soon we will have to be calling our enemies 'divided friends' or
> something silly like that.  What will be next on the docket for the

Do you think that it silly to more accurately represent history?  I don't.
Christ has NOT dominated world history the way that so-nominating the dating
system would indicate.  In most of the world, people think that
Western/Christian beliefs are quaint, ludicrous, and/or uninteresting and
inapplicable to daily life.  FWIW, nobody is stopping YOU from using BC/AD.
We refer to your own calendar for YOUR convenience: we have our own
calendar, more accurate and more tied to the seasons, tides, and other
relevant details - and it doesn't deify anybody.  It is, however, probably
too complex for tiny brained folk.  In the same way, we use YOUR language to
address you for YOUR convenience, because we wouldn't want to hurt your
little feelings by speaking to you in a tongue that you obviously couldn't
learn if you tried and thereby hurt your self-esteem.  Feel free to call it
A.D. ("And i Don't have a clue") if you want to: it won't hurt my feelings
one bit, antiquarian.

Calling enemies 'divided friends' is definitely silly, but YOU thought of
it, not us...

Next on the docket I recommend that we rename the silly nomenclature adopted
for naming the hemispheres: what do y'all think that you're "west" of
anyway?  *snicker*

> change
> to 'correctness'?  I nominate A.M. and P.M.!  I think that A.M. hurts my
> feelings as a person who has to get up early and go to work while others
> get to sleep in to the PM!

Really?  No wonder my garbage is still on the curb at 09:00.  [Sorry, folks,
but this *is* a flame.]  How long does it take you to pick it up anyway?

> feelings are hurt with the changes in BC/AD I want to return the favor
> by
> ruining the lives of those people who have this stick up their rectum
> for
> insisting on the change!

More obvious deviationist sexual maladjustment from the western so-called
capitalist.  [Aside: funny, but the best salesman I know are descended from
long lines of Middle Eastern camel-traders.  ObTrav: who represents the best
salesmen in your campaign?  K'Kree?  Droyne?  Geonee?  Female Aslan?  I'm
related to half the folks who will sell you oxygen, Scott, if you'll by it.
No, sorry, Scott, I misspoke -- they can't sell oxygen to an oxygen thief.

BTW, this is a capital offense on Khusgurlu (which my players are currently
rapidly fleeing...).  You're on Earth, aren't you?  Not obvious from your
remarks, so I ask.]

> 	So I decided to use a little bandwidth here to put my little pin
prick
> 	in

That small, eh?  I'm sorry.  A little less hand-holding and a little more
righteous activity might go a long way...

> the dam and see what develops...  Sorry if this message offends some of
> you, but I am a little fed up with the 'Reaganomics' of political
> correctness.

Being a politically active, Rush Limbaugh-style Republican, and a practicing
Muslim, I'm offended by your political naivete, general lack of
intelligence, social worth, lack of sensitivity to the belief systems of
others, and personal hygeine.

GO BACK TO LURKING!

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed                                           dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

All contents of this message were intended to harm only the addressed
recipient.  Any unintended loss of sanity caused to those innocent readers
of this open letter may seek private redress - and not waste any further
bandwith communicating with a demonstrated O2 thief like Scotty.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:25:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

 
> >> >are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most

I played in a military setting and liked it. It has advantages for
the ref since he can control the direction easily (partially your
point, I realize :-)

That said there were lots of interesting subplots to the FFW. Fleet
crushed, stragglers forced to ditch on a soon to be occupied world.
They helped resist the Zhos til the Navy liberated them. Various
adventures getting back to our new assignment. The battles
themselves, even if we were off in a corner (so we wouldn't get
instantly killed, no doubt :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:35:07 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium:What deadeye means about it all (Interesting!)

OK.

I've been skirting around this issue so here it goes.

I have been running and working on a military based campaign for
MegaTraveller detailing Lucan's Vengeance Fleet and its excursion in
1118 into Dulinor's territory for the last two years.

I hated MT at first.  They trashed my beloved Imperium and my SM
campaing would never be the same.  But after some time I got attracted
to DGP's beautiful stuff.  Sure the rules weren't tight, but the
grandeur of it got my attention.  And Reynolds/Vilardi/Caswell/Peter's
art.  They put together good books and I loved them. I loved getting to
know Norris, Dulinor and Strephon.  But it was hard to run anything in
that environment.

Then one day when I was sitting alone and bored in Guam, sweltering from
unbeareable heat and a broke airconditioner, I came up with an idea. Why
not run a short campaign as a bunch of grunts in that wartime setting?  
Well, seeing as Guam is in the Marianas chain, (only 100 miles south of
Tinian) I got a good taste of something Traveller lacked.

Military campaigns happen for a reason:geography.  A 2D Imperium didn't
have what I wanted, which was a chokepoint where a decisive battle could
be fought, or subtly maneuvered around. I needed 3D topology to see how
and why things would happen; 2D did not work because it didn't allow for
all the stellar junk, dustclouds debris and astronomy I wanted to put in
so the PC's could maneuver in and around.  I also decided that contrary
to popular Traveller I wanted an area not in clear space, but a region
of stellar wreckage and birth to cast a blood red glow on all the war
within.  I designed it in 3D and placed it right between Dulinor and
Lucan, in a region of a real dustcloud(rift.)

I called it Naryanganjo Corridor, named after the red supergiant
Naryanganj at its GalSouth mouth.  In this sector the 3 forces of Lucan,
Dulinor and Strephon would meet.

It has since grown to be the most intricatley detailed, coherent sector
ever done for (heretical) Traveller with artwork that is better than
anything ever done for Traveller.  When I said I am detailing the
Vengeance Fleet I meant it.

Being military I have a unique view on these things.  Imagine a short
guidebook on how to command a military ship.  Now play the senior
characters on it, ala Star Trek. Or deckapes.  

Did I hear, "Either way the ship fundamentally depends on the NPC's,
it's too big!"  

True, but if roleplayed well that IS exciting. These NPCs are not spear
carriers.  Done right they are the game.  Who cares if your PC has
MCR2000?  It gets them nothing except more paper and graphite notes. 
Personal interaction is what make roleplaying truly fun and getting the
NPC's to do right is a daunting and rewarding task.  Of course this
takes a very good GM to run them all.  One session of mine typically has
20-40 well detailed and acted NPC's.  And I love those NPCs!

I intend to continue working on this setting in my spare time and
publish it.  When it is(if ever) done, it will be the definitive on how
to run a military campaign in Traveller.  

Limited options in the mil?  Not quite.  But someone needs to tell you
guys what can be done in the TravMil.  A lot of that is stories from us
that has actually seen "the shit."  All those millions of little
anecdotes that would make a game by themselves.  I want to compile them.
Just having these materials detailed would be valuable for all Traveller
players.

My biggest beef is on the fate of the Imperium itself.  Remember those
Argon Blue codes?  Strephon has them and the secret of Longbow.  Know
what?  The Admiralty knows about Longbow too.  And contrary to popular
belief these guys are not bootlickers and yes men.  Political?  Yes, but
they are no cowtowers to a maniac.  They are the hard men of the
Imperial Navy, sworn for 500 years to defend the Emperor and empire and
will not roll over.  They are the nobles and men who chose(were
volunteerd) to serve with all thier heart(sort of.)

And Strephon is no idiot.  When he broadcasts/delivers his message in
1119( after taking a shelacking) the Admiralty gets a different version
complete with codes, schematics and proof. Beyond a shadow of a doubt
they know the truth, and act on it.

They know and it don't go like it did in MT or TNE.


Okay, rant off.  If you like this keep yapping and I'll say more.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:12:55 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.  (was RE: What CE m eans)

Harold:
> Greg Smith writes:
> >I understand your point, but every site I found on the web when I 
> >searched said "Common Era" and "Before Common Era".  First time I saw 
> >this was at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, DC.

Always check your sources.  Many don't believe that to be as authoritative a
source as once it was.  Too bad really.  They pulled a Christine Whitman
about Pearl Harbor, too (alienated their supporters).

[accurate and pointed statements about the Smithsonian snipped]

>    'Common era'.  Common to who?  Which culture?  The Chinese? the
> Arabs?  the Jews?  who?  What PC stupidity.  Recall what Voltaire said
> about the Holy Roman Empire (assuming dead white guys rate that much
> time in History classes these days).

Common meaning "common to the world."  All of the ethnicities you cite
existed then as now.  It isn't useful, Harold, to compare the Western
tradition to itself anymore, according to most intelligentsia (and useful,
interesting, and knowledgable professors as well) as it's been done to
death.  As we become a more global society in general, it is much more
useful to compare the "common era" in which lots of pretty neat things
happened on all continents.  [FWIW, I've always preferred Hobbes,
Machiavelli, and Sun Tzu to Voltaire, myself.]  Nobody with a brain is
suggesting that AD be dropped entirely in usage; I'm sure that John-Paul
will at least see to it that it continues in usage.  However, due to what I
call "Microsoft dating" (not virtual sex, folks) the backward compatibility
issue with our current, lame calendar system must be maintained, even if the
naming conventions are changed.

Hell, we can't get folks in the US to learn metrics, how're we going to get
them to accept a more modern calendar?  [ObTrav: this is why most worlds in
*my* Traveller have adopted bi-calendarial systems.]  Should we choose the
even more contentious date for starting our new calendar, like 04 July 1776
CE?  That won't fly, even here in the states...  Someone suggested earlier
that we scrap the current calendar and start over with a new one, but I
don't think that'll happen.  Common Era is just a compromise of form and
functionality.  Nothing personal.

Keep a stiff upper lip, we haven't taken away X-mas, yet.  Just bagged
Valentine's Day in some school districts, though.  Heh.  A joke, a joke.
Relax people.  Cultures change, and the America most of us were raised in no
longer exists except in our memories...  I think Darwin said it best: adapt
or die.  [I'm sure our European comrades-in-arms are having even more
difficulties with the emergance of the EU, they just more tact than to
inflict them on us. ;-]  I speak from an economic standpoint about change:
the company I work for has changed it's entire management/marketing
philosophy for just this reason - to appeal to an increasingly, like it or
not, diverse customer base (people who buy gasoline - petrol for those
across the pond).  If we don't appeal to them, we lose business, wither, and
die.  Just because we don't like a trend or a poll doesn't mean that we can
ignore it...

I for one am glad to see a kinder, gentler (*roflmao* doublespeak still
kills me) Traveller.  T4 is no longer published just in the states: never
was just in the states really.  If publishers want to grow their businesses,
they have to realize this and appeal to a broader range of consumers.
Another example: rice.  Yup, y'all buckeyes (denizens of the state of Ohio
for those across the pond) wouldn't like it much if we Texans (I used to be
a buckeye) flavored all the prepackaged rice, grown here, that you buy in
the store; we think it's too bland - no enough cayenne, habanero, and
jalapeno for us.

ObTrav: another perennial thread, sort of, but how many people (besides me)
inflict snack duty on players?  Do you demand that they bring something
Travelleresque to the table?  (No, even though this GM can be bribed with
white fudge covered Oreos, they are NOT Travelleresque.)

No flame intended, Harold.  You're a great guy.  I guess we'll just have to
agree to disagree.  [BTW, I'm sorry about Glenn.  IIRC, even the NRA was
silent on how to vote on that one; at least word of it never filtered down
here.  I'm going to be up to visit the parents in Toledo during 16-21 March
or so; which part of the Peoples' Republic of Ohio are you in?]

>>>-------------------->>                         >>>-------------------->>

David Reed                                        "...and that age is known
dreed@shellus.com                                  as the golden age, until
713.245.2656                                       it was spoiled by the
Shell Services International                       arrival of the women."
Infrastructure Technology Services                -Snorri Sturluson, _Edda_

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:04:23 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: A new calendar for the new millenia (was RE: What CE means)

At 11:12 PM 10/02/98 -0600, David Reed wrote:
>Steve:
>[a thread that's getting really old snipped]
>> Well, back before there was a web . . . yada yada gripe gripe . . .
>> Pure conspiracy, I tell you!
>
>Gotta love those.  Wanna here my theory about ICQ as a government spy
>agency?
>
>> If "common" era it the way its spelled now, so be it.  I have never used
>> the
>> term, nor will I.  Why don't we take 001-2001 A.D. as an opportunity to
>> fix our calendars and all the tinkering the Julian, Gregorian, etc. have
>> caused, add a year 0 as there ought to be, etc., and be done with the
>> damn thing.
>
>Here, here.  I'm all in favor of ending the debate and signing Steve's
>petition to begin a new, "Year 2000 Compliant" (sorry, couldn't help it)
>calendar on 001-2000.  I hate to propose it, but should we call it the "New
>Era"?  How does this sort of thing get started?  A UN resolution?  We all
>know how far those get...  Do I need to set myself up as Emperor and issue
>and edict?  Sounds good...  All those in favor?
>
>Nah, I nominate Marc Miller.
>
I think that Steve said 001-2001, not 001-2000.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #137
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 138



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Wealthy Traveller Income
re: Starship Economics
Re: Annoying Language
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
What TNE was about.
Re: Rome and the Imperium
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
Re: Patriotism
Jump Mines
Re: Military roleplaying
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Off Topic & CE/BCE
CE
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
RE: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
RE: What CE means to me

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:58:12 -0600 (CST)
From: searles@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Wealthy Traveller Income

I have a party member who is running a wealthy traveller for a PC.  She rolled 
to fully own a far trader.  Anyone have ideas as to how she could lease out 
the ship so that she still could have money coming in, but not the involvement 
of running a ship???  I don't have really any clues as to how to generate 
monthly income for this type of situation.

Thanks,

Cygnus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:38:33 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: Starship Economics

>>Could someone give me some pointers to where I can find info on the
>>costs of starship operations?  How much to pay the crew, what fuel
>>costs, what's the expenses for carrying a High Passage passenger, etc.
>
>RTM - p46 to 55 MT Referees Manual
Even though he's not interested... TNE page 236-240... just FTR.  That's been
the same since the merchant prince rules IIRC.  Better format than MT, IMO.
(shading to the tables, etc)

>>This is for an MT scenario, I have no access (or interest) in TNE or T4.
>
>Not sure if TNE used the same system for the Regency, but the T4 systems is
>identical apart from the fact that it's mangled in the text. I have fallen
>back to using the MT reference as it is clearer.

Not just for the Regency. It's the "basic" trade system for TNE.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:38:36 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

Rupert wrote:

>That's a very 'western' POV, you know. In fact most of the Roman culture
>and civilization was not lost but alive and well in the Eastern Roman
>(Byzantine) Empire, until the Arabs, Crusaders and Italian city sataes did
>for it.

Yeah it is.  I'm referring to the European remnants of the Roman Empire (about
Italy and westward).  I know well about the Byzantines.  My favorite areas of
history are the Roman Republic, Medieval Europe (from 1066 to say 1291) and
the history of the Church in general.  The Byzantines are big in that period
and they're very important to Church history as well.    : )
 
Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:38:31 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

>I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to take a poll:
Burn baby... burn. lol. : )

>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
Traveller: the New Era. : ) Some very slight mods (d10s for direct fire
damage, etc)

>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
Reformation Coalition... 1202/NE 2
   We've got a relatively small corner of Charted Space... a (relatively) safe
zone. Frontier and plenty of details and oodles of potential for any Ref.

<snip>
>b) Favorite setting - Rebellion

Where during the Rebellion? Have your players picked a faction to support or
are they basically ignoring the whole thing?  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:55:11 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: What TNE was about.

Apologies in advance for ranting, but:


I've heard that too many times: 'TNE was just about SAG raids; military
stuff.'

SORRY???? I fail to understand.

Yeah, there was a fair amount of that, but there was so much more you could
do. I played TNE with homegrown rules of my own devising, so no, I'm not a
fan for the sytem's sake. I now play T4, anyway.

TNE was about rebuilding after the Collapse. Not just an excuse for SAG
raids and decapitation strikes, it was about a society dragging itself out
of the ruins. Sure, some of the things they did were unpleasant, but TO THE
PEOPLE OF THE RC they were Ok because they were necessary. 

Which is better? Be aggressive and take stuff & hurt people, or quietly
stagnate/die?

They did what they thought was necessary. No more.

Ever play The Morrow Project? It's about reconstructing the USA after WWIII
and a century of barbarism. My TNE game had elements like that in it.

Yeah, we did SAG raids. One, actually. Then there were the diplomatic
missions, the desperate searches for vital artifacts or knowledge to avert
disaster.. the PCs who sacrificed themselves to save a column of refugees
on some nameless world... the bitter desolation of a fallen empire.
Tramp-trading out in the wilds, internal security ops, riot control,
salvage ops, political maneuvering, exploration, colonial establishment and
support, corporate espionage, military operations and an Ancients site....

I seem to remember that TNE presented a situation - here's the ruins; go
dig yourselves out and build something new. The setting was wide open in a
way that the mature Imperium wasn't. Three guys in a tired old
scout/courier could make a difference, and my players spent their time
REALLY trying to make that difference, to build a future. The New Era was
wide open... you could do with it whatever you liked.

Yet some people seem to be saying 'all you could do was SAG raids'. 

I think someone is missing the point.

I'll quote one of my players... ' If we take over a regressed world, we end
up as kings of nothing. If we help that world rebuild, we earn ourselves a
future. Somebody's got to do this and there's only us. But where do we
start?'

My lot really thought about helping rebuild... what to do, how to do it,
what they needed. That led to dozens of adventures - very varied ones at
that - wherein they tried to get the resouces they needed together/convince
the locals to follow them/remove obstacles/ overcome the latest setback.

Oh yeah.... and once I ran a SAG mission out of the book. It was fun, a
nice change of pace after all the politicking and the
talking/trading/spying.

But it certainly wasn't the be-all and end-all of TNE.

Stridently....

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:01:29 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

Bloo wrote:

>Umm, can you name an example of a religious inspired Roman fight before
>300AD?Not flaming, but would really like to hear of such.
    Well... the campaigns against the druids come to mind.  Romans were pretty
pragmatic and tolerant about religions in general, but the one thing they
would not abide was human sacrifice.

>> Until the Christians started making a huge fuss in the later Empire the
>> Romans were fairly tolerant, provided you didn't go round denying the
>> divintity of the Emperor.
>
>As I mentioned in another post in this thread, they certainly were.  Temples
to
>even Isis, Greek and Norse gods in Rome even in 300 A.D.
     Well...  it was considered scandalous.  Isis was a 'mystery cult'
introduced during the Republic.  "Decent" society was appalled.  Greek gods
were long considered Roman equivalents and Norse?  The Vikings didn't become
known in Europe until Charlemagne, IIRC, though I may be wrong on that?  I
certainly have never heard of Norse gods being worshipped in Rome.

>> The Christians were perscuted because they
>> started saying that their god was the only one, etc, etc. This caused civil
>> unrest _because_ of the religious diversity of the Empire, not because of
>> repression of non official religions. The Roman Empire covered such a large
>> area and so many different cultures that it counldn't afford to enforce
>> only one religion, until Christianity was very common.
    The Romans actually misinterpreted Christianity twice. First, they took
communion to be cannibalism and then they interpreted it as a form of near-
atheism.  Both didn't last long, but made good scapegoats later on.  The Jews
were tolerated in Rome.  They were granted many favors because they supported
Augustus in the Civil War.  It was only the many Jewish revolts and Judea
being such a pain in the butt that kept it from being very respected.

>Yup.  Romans allowed for 'conquered' territories to manage much of their own
>affairs (one reason they could control so much territory), in much the same
way
>that the Imperium allows for much autonomy within a system - although this of
>course changed over time.
     The Romans didn't really care on internal arrangement as long as taxes
were paid and there was no human sacrifice going on.  There'd be the tax-
farmers and the Roman provincial governor, of course. : )  Later on, it turned
into raising native legionaries too.

>> BTW the Christians
>> threw Pagans to the Lions once they were in charge.
    Hmm...  i won't take that flamebait. : ) This isn't the place...

>Interesting stuff about Nero on History Channel last week.  When the big fire
>happened, apparently Nero blamed Christians as they were the most unpopular
>people in town at the moment (although many suspect Nero's agents of causing
>the fire so he could build his new palace in the place).  The report said
that
>Christians hadn't been singled out for the lions before the fire.

Ob Trav.... speaking of Legionarries.  Any work been done on the Julian League
outside of M:0?  The Star Legion sounds pretty cool... They whipped the 3I's
butt and apparently stay independent throughout the existance of the Third
Imperium until Virus get's em.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:07:01 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

>We refer to your own calendar for YOUR convenience: we have our own
>calendar, more accurate and more tied to the seasons, tides, and other
>relevant details - and it doesn't deify anybody.

Not sure what you're referring to here.  Do you mean the calender devised by
Christians based on the birth of their spiritual leader Christ, renamed in
order to make it more palatable to the rest of the world?

Like I said, if they wanted a real change, then change the calender, not just
the name.

Say you want to call cigarettes fundelbunnets, they'd still cause cancer, eh?

A rose is a rose...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:11:00 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

>Oh, hey, AolerTNE, how's it feel to be paying another $2 bucks a month to be
>LAME?

You know, this is sad.  You stoop to personal insults quite a number of times
in your posts.  I guess you have no other way to get your point across, eh?

I wish I knew when I asked what CE was, it would lower so many people to such
a horrible, embarassing state...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:24:55 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patriotism

>This is only one possible motivation for "joinin' up."  But a good one from
>a sci-fi and space opera perspective.  Don't try to press all of your
>military types into this mold though, but I have to take exception to the
>"for education and training" concept -- once you leave your homeworld,
>what's the likelihood that you will ever see it again (to return to put your
>hard-earned skills to use)?  And I don't me dying for the "starburst" but
>just the logistics of getting back home once mustered out in the next
>sector...

Nah, don't try to push all of my military types into this mold.  Just trying
to look at it realistically, if I had the chance to go to space, possibly
never to return, I'd have to think pretty seriously about taking it.  I
probably wouldn't do it myself, but just the option is almost mind boggling.

On the other hand, the only military NPC that I run is a hardened veteran type
of guy, with little input into the games (other then that he speaks in a
British accent and tells the PCs where their next mission is).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 22:27:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Jump Mines

On 02/10/98 at 01:48 AM,  J-Man <j-man@iname.com> said:

>> >Actually, close.  But instead of explode, I wanted them to all
>> >"mis-jump" creating an unstable jumpfield so that parts of the enemy
>> >fleet just go into jump at random.
>> 
>> Ouch.  Alas, according to canon, since the jumpfield doesn't get more than
>> a meter or two away from the object, it wouldn't really work.

>Is there ANY way to enhance this?  Maybe induce a small black hole by
>detonating a large nuclear warhead inside a partially formed jump field?

J-Man, in your game you can do that, and it would work, but it won't work
in orthodox Traveller. That's why I made the joke, "and they call *me* a
heretic."

If you *do* try this, you'll have to make the mines almost impossible to
detect until the ships are among them, and that's going to be *very* hard.
Hard for the same reason missles will have a tough time getting through
point defenses. 

Shoot, if you can make mines that hard to detect, just put det-lasers in
them.


Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 22:40:10 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

On 02/10/98 at 07:28 AM,  deadeye@ebicom.net said:

>The problem with playing military with "few options" is a direct result of
>poor knowledge of what it is like to be in a military.  Players need to
>want to be a captain of a starship or a Marine Force Commander. To do it
>right they need to study and learn, as command skills do not come easily.

Roleplaying military adventures *does* offer a number of options and plenty
of excitement. However, there are problems, one of which is that most
players don't like a situation where one of them is the boss and everyone
else is a subordinate, particularly in a military sense. That doesn't mean
you (and they) can't/won't do it...think a Startrek game...but it takes a
different style of playing/gming from the standard Traveller style where
everyone is more or less equal.

Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 23:03:07 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

On 02/10/98 at 03:39 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>Not really nanotech those IBM letters right? It's akin to saying "We can
>build Babbages Difference engine because we can make iron".

Anders, I tell my Computer Concepts classes that we simply don't know if
nano-technology will ever come about, especially, the replicator/nanobot
sort of technology, but it might and it's worth pursuing about even if it
leads someplace else.

We are well on the way to building working micro-machines. Working gears,
levers, switches, springs, and rods have all been built. Simple machines
built from these parts powered by static electricity. They are a long way
from *any* kind of engine, ;-> but they are a step along that road.

If you want my opinion, I'm *sure* we'll get commercially useful and
profitable simple machines down to a micron or two, I'm pretty sure we'll
get them down to the nano size range, I think we might be able to build
complex computational engines down to a few microns, I think it's unlikely
we'll go all the way down to replicators or nanocomputers. But that's my
conservative opinion.  

<sigh>

Tell you the truth, *I* still see the singularity out there...ten, twenty
years ahead, and I have no idea what's on the other side. People twenty
years younger than me probably don't see it quite the same way, and just
might be able to see beyond my horizon. In twenty years when I'm an old
fart that can't handle the "brave new nano-world" and the young turks are
seeing *their* singularity (whatever *that* is), maybe their children will
see beyond their horizon...maybe.

IAC, I do *not* want to roleplay out on my horizon.  I *like* the 50's feel
of Traveller with it's big clunky computers and silver suits, it's
comfortable and comfortablly futuristic for me. ;-> Just call me...

Eris,
    old coot in training
- -- 
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 23:16:00 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

On 02/10/98 at 11:35 AM,  "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net> said:

>>What does C.E. mean?

>Common Era, it's used by those who don't want to acknowledge Christ with
>the use of A.D. (Anno Domini, Medieval Latin for "in the year of the
>Lord") or are afraid to offend those who don't want to.  B.C.E. is Before
>the Common Era (B.C.).

Hum, I thought it was Current Era, but I'm probably wrong.

I can't say I much care for the term, but it's not worth wasting a lot of
time, energy or bandwidth arguing about is it? If you don't like it, don't
use it.

Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 23:35:44 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

On 02/11/98 at 10:26 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>>FYI, medieval is a term used for the dark ages by those who don't want
>>people to think they were so bad.  We have all kinds of terms like this.
>>Weird, no?

>FWIW my varsity lecturers used it as a twrm for the period between the
>Dark Ages and the Renaissance. That is to say from about 1050 AD to about
>1450 AD, extremely approximately.

Yes, that's what I was taught as well.  The "Dark Ages" were from about 500
to 900 AD, and is also called the early Middle Ages.  The Medieval period
was from around 700 to 1300 AD, makes up the bulk of the Middle Ages, and
corresponding to the development and flourishing of the feudal system.  The
Renaissance started in the 14th century in various city states and spread
across Europe during the next few hundred years.


Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 23:52:37 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

On 02/10/98 at 04:20 PM,  "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net> said:

>My players and I were having a discussion...

>I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to take a
>poll:

Oh, brother! Did you ask for it! ;->

>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ok, do hybrids count? ;->

If I had to pick from only among CT, MT, TNE, or T4, I'd pick TNE with T4
coming in second.

>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

The Long Night....and if I can't say that, then CT *before* the Imperium
was more than a bare framework, and if I can't say that then Millieu 0.

>We're curious...do people tend to use just one ruleset and its companion
>setting - or are people doing something like what we're doing (classic
>Traveller rules, Rebellion Setting).

Not just one ruleset, not just one setting. Heck, you know me...I play a
mixture of everything I like, everywhen I like.

Eris
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:49:49 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Off Topic & CE/BCE

How about that complete and total weirdness...

I started out this morning (or afternoon) on a soapbox concerning off topic
posts.

I believe I said that, as a list, we do not stray too far off topic, and do
not need to be herded back constantly.

I logged on later to find out, I was wrong in a huge way.  I am deeply
saddened that a question I asked blew up in such a nasty manner.  It compounds
some very bad, unrelated news I'd gotten tonight about a close friend...

I will ask something that before today I wouldn't have ever asked, and
probably never will ask.  Can we please kill the CE and BCE/AD and BC
discussion?  This is not based on the fact that its an eyesore, nor that it
quickly disinterested me.  Its just that it seems to be bringing out the worst
in alot of people, a side of many of you I'd not like to see at the moment.
Its messy, and in a number of occasions it seems to have degenerated into
personal insults, some masked, some in the open.  If you aren't going to stop
the discussion, please put your brain in gear before putting your typing
fingers into motion, or take the personal insults to private e-mail so I don't
have to see the childishness and immaturity that something as seemingly
innocent as a renamed dating system could bring about.  This is really
disheartening to see the TML reduced to this state so quickly.

Now this goes against the grain of what I tried to defend in my post against
screaming 'off-topic' too early.  This place is beginning to look like it
should be called 'alt.sfrpg.traveller' or something like that...

Sorry for inadvertently starting the whole thread, and thank you for paying
attention if you got this far.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:50:56 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: CE

You BASTARDS!!!!!!!  You pointy-headed woolly-eared gap-toothed
sheep-fondling BASTARDS!!!!!

I toil over my keyboard for HOURS devising trolls for all my virtual
friends and what do I get for it?  NADA.  ZIP.  ZILCH.  Hand-crafted barbs
and hooks lying around unappreciated.  Not even a bite.  <sob>

But you UNGRATEFUL PERVERSE GITS go APESHIT over a DATING ABBREVIATIONS.

(Me, I get a bit agitated over some of my "dating abbreviations" too, in
another sense, but that's hardly a fit topic for mixed company, even in a
MATURE, INFORMED, FORUM FOR CRITICAL INQUIRY AND DISCUSSION like the TML,
IS IT?????  IS IT????  OR DOES "C.E." ON TML ONLY STAND FOR "CRETINOUS
EVACUATIONS"?)

Dang you all to the deepest pits of heck!  I MEAN IT!


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:57:13 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>To quote Charlton Heston:
>
>"You maniacs, you blew it up!"

Or to quote Kyle from SouthPark:

"They killed Strephon, you BASTARDS!"

Whoops, that's, um...  MegaTraveller.  Cranial circuits fried.

The one thing that was kind of neat when I bought TNE was when I read it, and
read the background, the hair on the back of my neck stood up and I got chills
as I realized...  its gone...  its all gone.

In one way, it was kind of sad, in another, it was extremely cool.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:58:21 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

ANOTHER THING.

_milieu_ -- SINGULAR!!!!!
_milieux_ -- PLURAL!!!!!

AIN'T WESTERN CIVILIZATION JUST FREAKIN' GREAT?????

ME!!!!!
KENJI@ACCESSONE.COM!!!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:06:53 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

T4 is my favorite, it is elegant and simple and it is perfectly suited to my
style of roleplaying.  Very user friendly to new players, with enough depth
for even jaded "old-heads", I like it a bit.

TNE was a good system, but it was clunky to play and combats took a good long
time to finish...  especially one time when my PCs had a firefight on a train,
and one half were in the front of the train, and the other half were in the
rear, and no lie, there was a _really_ low ceiling on the way back and forth
where there were two stairs, run one way, hit the front of my skull, run the
other way and I would hit the top of my skull against the ceiling.  I must
have hit my head something like 5 times each way.  My head hurts thinking of
it.  When all was said and done though, the firefight was exciting.  If I had
a more experienced RPGing group that picked up rules more easily, and the
chargen system didn't take 20 - 45 min, I would have liked the system alot
more.

I've never actually played with CT or MT.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:07:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: RE: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

>Is that so wrong?  For Muslims, it has nothing to do with not wanting to
>"acknowledge" Christ (p.b.u.h. - who was a full-fledged, virgin-born,
>prophet is his own right, given the power authority to lead the Ummah

   It is in a world that was founded on Judao-Christian principles. Yes.   U
might as well finish the general (medieval) moslem belief by saying that the
Moslems think that Our Lord will on the last day tell his followers to forsake
the cross and take up the crescent...  Of course it's nonsense that no
Christian will accept and will get u put in the first rubber room that can be
found.  maybe u can get a cell with that guy w/ the san*klaass hat who did the
World Trade Center.

>against the unbelievers in the Last War), but rather that we don't think
>that any HUMAN was ever important enough to base a calendaring system

   Well... we believe that He was not a normal human.  He IS the Son of God.
That makes him important enough.

<snip>
>Flames, anyone?
oh yes.

<snip>
>you must be thinking of the Spanish Inquisition...  The Moors (good Muslim
>boys, mostly) tried to put an end to all that, but Columbus came along and
>kicked them out...  Or was that Ferdinand/Isabella?  Just kidding!

Ferdinand and Isabella completed the Reconquista.  Sent all them "good boys"
packing (in the dirt, mostly), though a few wisely converted.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:07:45 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: RE: What CE means to me

El Morono aka David Reed wrote:

>Do you think that it silly to more accurately represent history?  I don't.
>Christ has NOT dominated world history the way that so-nominating the dating

Christians have dominated the world.  Like it or not.  I don't think you do. :
)

>system would indicate.  In most of the world, people think that
>Western/Christian beliefs are quaint, ludicrous, and/or uninteresting and

What glorious places are these?  Some hovel in Iraq?  The Taj Majal? Luxor in
Las Vegas? lol.  The pyramids? Please enlighten us, oh great moronic one.  

>inapplicable to daily life.  FWIW, nobody is stopping YOU from using BC/AD.
>We refer to your own calendar for YOUR convenience: we have our own
>calendar, more accurate and more tied to the seasons, tides, and other
>relevant details - and it doesn't deify anybody.  It is, however, probably
>too complex for tiny brained folk.  In the same way, we use YOUR language to
>address you for YOUR convenience, because we wouldn't want to hurt you
>little feelings by speaking to you in a tongue that you obviously couldn't

That's mighty kind of u. : )  Please pay in US dollars and write your check in
english, please.

<snip>
>Next on the docket I recommend that we rename the silly nomenclature adopted
>for naming the hemispheres: what do y'all think that you're "west" of
>anyway?  *snicker*

Oh boy... you are really stupid. lol 

I'm snipping the rest... 

>GO BACK TO LURKING!

And you crawl back under the rock u came out of.  Preferably u could go to
that black one all the way in Mecca, assuming you've actually completed your
pilgramage and gone there at all.(that's one of the Five Pillars, no?)

Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #138
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 139



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re:  What CE means to me
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Couple Things
mea culpa
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!
Re: Starship Economics
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Bigotry
Re: Jump mines
Re: Ringworld
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Wealthy Traveller income
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Dumarest Novels
Re: Starship economics
Re: Roran: a new animal

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:07:41 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

Apologies to any true Moslems except the Moron known as David Reed and to the
rest of the list.

>>   Now now now... we seem awfully defensive, don't we?  "Most" of the planet
>> might not acknowledge my Lord Jesus, but the vast majority of the western
>> world does.  YOU live with it.
>
>Really?  What were the statistics about the number of practicing,
>church-going, God-fearing denizens of the West?  How many are bar-hopping,
>butt-humping, and Sabbath-breaking instead?  (Or sleeping off the
>after-effects thereof... ;-)  I guess you don't believe in democracy, eh,
>when it doesn't suit?  I thought the moral majority couldn't be wrong...
>*evil grin*

   Well... there's alot more of us than there are bombplanting terrorist
towelheads.  (Apologies to the Moslems whom I respect). I don't believe many
of the scum who who proclaim Allah Akbar are real Moslems.  U want a religious
debate, u're welcome to email me privately.
    I believe in democracy.  I'm in the US Marines defending that democracy
and attacking the enemies of my nation. I'm hoping I get to blow up a few of
the shitty Iraqi tanks while I'm at it.  Where are you? Pumping gas at shell?
The Founding Fathers had social controls in place that didn't require them to
legislate morality.  If they knew what would've happened, I believe they might
well have.
  *evil grin back*

<snip>
>> Noone denies there was technical progress after the fall of Rome.  But it
was
>> a much more illiterate and savage time than the Pax Romana enjoyed for so
>> long.  Much of Roman culture and civilization was lost and Rome *was* the
>> "world."
>
>Really?  Where'd y'all steal algebra, architecture, and intact copies of
>original Greek and Roman works from?  Not Rome...  There are those "Roman"

   Well my far distant ancestors took them from Moslems who invaded Spain and
the Levant, actually.  They were driven back across the straights of Gibraltar
in the west and kicked out of the Holy City for a darn near century.  Too bad
their heirs went native and ruined the gene pool.

>numerals nobody uses anymore in favor of the Arabic numerals (how'd they get
>called that? the Arabs don't use 'em...)  Rome might be the world you
>remember, but if you think it *was* the world, then there's this really big
>Wall in China I'd like to sell you an authentic piece of.  Gotta love all
>the burning, pillaging, rapine, and rape that Pax Romana brought to my
>peaceful, singing Celtic ancestors.  They even had the gaul (sorry, had to

Yup.  u do gotta love it. : )  They did it unapologetically and w/ no regret.

<bad puns and nonsensable rantings snipped>

>Oh, hey, AolerTNE, how's it feel to be paying another $2 bucks a month to be
>LAME?

Well... seeing how i'm only paying 9.95 a month for my unlimited access
(including IRC, Netscape, Microsloth IE, and pretty much everything else)
through a tcp/ip connection to aol, i don't think that applies to me, dumb
ass.  lol  And in case you couldn't read, my screen name is TravelrTNE.  If u
want to continue this, please email me directly.  We've had flame/counterflame
now...  let's not burden the rest of the list, shall we?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:09:06 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

Whoops, left this half out by accident.  My favorite setting is CT era.  I
like the rest of the settings too, but I just like the classic era.  I think
it has the most roleplaying possibilities, once you pull away from the
merchants and mercenaries feel.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:20:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  What CE means to me

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>   All this CE and BCE garbage is an attempt to distance the Christian
>heritage of the western world and apologize from dominating the globe.  If
>that's what we, as a society, want to do, then lets be honest about it.  Of
>course, that wouldn't wash... Noone comes straight out with their true
>intentions otherwise, the majority of its proponets would be revealed as 
what
>they are.  As a Catholic and Christian, I will continue to use Anno Domini
>before the date.  

I'm perfectly honest about it.  I'm not a Christian, and I won't use it,
and given that we live in a world with many religions and a nation with
full religious freedom I see no reason to use it. 

>    The modern (western) world is not a place that has the intestinal
>fortitude to stand up and proclaim its convictions.  And those 
> convictions are slowly being eroded away.  

Only if you see Christianity as being somehow central to western
civilization. Sure, it once was, but in practice, most folks are agnostics
who (at best) go to church for social reasons.  Except for fundies and
Catholics (both fairly small minorities) the US isn't terribly religious
and most of Western Europe is even less.  I don't have any problem with
"Christian values" going belly up, and don't see that it's been hurting
our civilization any that they mostly have been.  I think intolerance, the
oppression of women, prejudice against non-Christian religions, and
similar "convictions" are things we can safely do without.  I don't want 
anyone to have the "intestinal fortitude" to proclaim *those* convictions.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 00:12:21 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On 02/10/98 at 06:03 PM,  TravelrTNE@aol.com said:

>>That is the best description of TNE I've seen, and the reason I loathed
>>it.  

It *did* make me laugh. ;->

>>The whole make the backward worlds "safe for democracy & capitalism"
>>while also looting their tech was amazingly morally repellent.  I had
>>about as much impetus to play in that setting as I would a game of the
>>heroic German SS in WWII, *yuck!*

>     What a load of horse crap!  Stick to the facts and not your narrow
>viewpoint.

He's not the only one that had objections to the RCES and their policies.

>     The goal wasn't to loot, it was to take it before the
>techno/xeno-phobic natives destroyed it and to restore the "capitalism"
>(read: trade, commerce and a fragment of interstellar society) lacking the
>moral repugnance and arrogance of the late and lamented Last Imperium. 

That might have been the *stated* purpose, but that's not the way it *felt*
to me...or the way most players I encountered *played*
Starvikings.  The RCES weren't shining knights bringing civilization to the
poor and downtrodden, except in their propaganda and maybe their own minds. 
They *were* Reavers, looters, who benefited from what they "removed" from
the wilds.

>>I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.

Now, *that's* sad!  The US might or might not engage in economic
imperialism (and that might or might not be good), but I know the US and
we're no RCES.

You know, I liked TNE's rules (as much as I like *any* rules ;-), but not
the RC setting.  That setting just didn't hit me as uplifting, pulling
worlds out of the darkness.  It *felt* cold and vicious to me. It didn't
*have* to be that way, but that's the way it felt.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 00:35:22 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Couple Things

On 02/10/98 at 10:05 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:

>Gentlebeings: Steve is a Traveller fan. Long term. Dyed in the wool. He
>makes some of you look like pikers by comparison.

>An Example: He saw some of the teaser TNS releases I am having put onto
>the GURPS: Traveller Web page (you'll see them soon enough), and he came
>into my office to tell me that they made his hair stand on end in
>excitement. And he was not kidding -- he had goosebumps. His eyes glowed.
>He wanted to talk possibilities - and he left five minutes later still
>excited. Unless I screw up big time, Traveller is going to be a GURPS
>product line for a long time. Make of it what you will.

In that case, Loren, don't you *dare* screw up! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:36:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: mea culpa

Fellow Travellers,

I wrote:
> It is in a world that was founded on Judao-Christian principles.

I should have Inserted a "modern western" before world.  I apologize to any
who will listen. I sentence myself to 1001 lashings (or emails from David
Reed, take your pick).
  I'm really not as arrogant (religiously or politically) as some of my flames
may indicate.  I believe in tolerance and not the torture and persecution that
those less tolerant in the history of the Church have brought.  My convictions
are strong and I believe that if you worship God, it doesn't necessarily
matter how.  I choose to follow the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and
the Bible but respect the rights of those to believe otherwise.  Allah and
YHWH and Jesus are the same God IMHO and I revere Him.  I can say "Allah
Ackbar."  It is not in my custom to bow towards Mecca.  Most of the myriad
forms of religion (especially the "Great Three."  Christianity, Islam and
Judaism) i believe are all valid.  Of course, i believe mine is "more" right,
but... ; )
   Anyone who wants to further differentiate is welcome to engage me in a
religious debate.  
   Please excuse this completely non-Trav statement. I felt I needed to
explain myself. 

Happy Travelling

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:45:33 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

>IAC, I do *not* want to roleplay out on my horizon.  I *like* the 50's feel
>of Traveller with it's big clunky computers and silver suits, it's
>comfortable and comfortablly futuristic for me. ;-> Just call me...

See, I said silver suits are cool!  :^)

Everyone just loves silver jumpsuits.

Especially those with purple lightning bolts down the front.

Semo

(BTW, I really would like to know what IAC is, but I'm afraid to ask, after
seeing what I started accidentally when I asked what CE was)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:18:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!

Andrew Boulton writes:
>>How to get the correct codes?  Seeing as the can change very fast and
>>multiple times(ie what was good 1 hour ago ain't good anymore,) fat
>>chance.
> 
>How about for ships out on patrol? They're going to need to know *in 
>advance* what the codes are going to be, otherwise the system defence forces 
>are going to blow the **** out of them when they jump back in-system. Same 
>situation if two patrolling ships meet. It's going to have to be something 
>the computer can generate. Capture an enemy ship intact, without anybody 
>knowing (tricky, admittedly), and you've got the codes.

Read any book about 18th Century naval warfare and you'll have your answer.
The system will be a tad more high-tech than a book wrapped in lead so 
that it is guaranteed to sink when thrown overboard, but the principle
will be the same. In the event of imminent capture the senior surviving
officer will make sure that the codes are destroyed.

Here's a library data entry I made up some years ago about that subject:

LAST WILL:  Colloquial  naval  name for a special closed data-pack
used to keep secret orders,  passwords,  call-codes, astrogational 
data  about  the  location  of  fuel  dumps and other hidden naval 
sites,  and  any  other classified information.  Such data are not 
supposed  to  be  copied  in  the  ship's  regular data banks, nor
memorized.  The LW is carried by the captain of a ship so that the 
successor  can get them if the captain is killed or incapacitated.  
In the event of imminent capture or destruction of the ship, it is 
the specific duty of the senior surviving officer, and the general 
duty of any surviving officer or crew member, to ensure that these 
data  are erased.  Apart from other controls a LW is equipped with 
two  prominent  buttons:  an 'erase' button and a 'retain' button. 
Pressing the erase button will erase all data bit by bit. Pressing 
the  retain  button will reset a 12-hour timer.  Should the retain 
button  not  be pressed again before the timer runs out,  the data 
will be erased. 


I posted it some months ago and it was suggested that such a dingus would
also include a small explosive charge to physically destroy the storage
medium. I myself am satisfied by haviing the device erase the data bit by
bit (That means accessing every single byte and randomizing it, not just
fiddling around with access tables.), but YMMV. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:58:52 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

CardSharks@aol.com (Marc Miller) wrote

> << 
>  I've adopted a house rule that says that the Major column is used for > both cargo and major freight. What are your thoughts?
>  
>   >>
> Thanks for your analysis. I have re-labelled the chart to show that the table
> produced freight (goods carried for a fee). An unlimited quantity of Cargo is
> available... which makes sense... its the primary product of the world.

I have always used the same table for both cargo _and_ freight and only
rolled once.  I am using the simplifying assumption that the goods being
offered for sale as cargo and for shipment as freight are the
_exact_same_items.  The NPC owners of these items are perfectly happy to
either pay you Cr 1,000 a ton to ship them or to sell them to you, for
the market price determined by the table, & let you do whatever you with
with them.  As I see it the table is a table of "what can I find here
this week ?" and not a table of freight or cargo.

If you do it this way you save having to roll things up twice, place
market constraints of both freight & cargo, and have an excuse to reuse
the same NPC's wheteher they are dealing in freight or cargo.  I think
these are all good things & thats why I do it this way.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:29:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

A hybrid:  MT combat & task system, TNE psionics, and a modified char-gen
which gives roughly 1 skill/year, has a maximum skill level of 6 and
involves picking instead of rolling professions and skills. 

I'm also working on adapting the Conspiracy-X (by Eden Publication) rules
to Traveller (it's a *great* system). 

> b) What is your favorite setting?

Classic or a variant MT where things settle down to a variety of factions
in a long-term cold war with wilds in between. 



- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:41:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Bigotry

TravelrTNE@aol.com spewed:

>>Is that so wrong?  For Muslims, it has nothing to do with not wanting to
>>"acknowledge" Christ (p.b.u.h. - who was a full-fledged, virgin-born,
>>prophet is his own right, given the power authority to lead the Ummah
   
>It is in a world that was founded on Judao-Christian principles. 

A whole world hmm, tell that to most folks in India and East Asia, I'm 
sure they would be fascinated to hear this.  I see you can also spell as 
well as you think.    

>Yes.  U might as well finish the general (medieval) moslem belief by saying 
>that the Moslems think that Our Lord will on the last day tell his followers 
>to forsake the cross and take up the crescent...  Of course it's nonsense 
>that no Christian will accept and will get u put in the first rubber room 
>that can be found.  maybe u can get a cell with that guy w/ the san*klaass 
>hat who did the World Trade Center.

Ah, religious bigotry, how unsurprising.  Folks like you give Christianity
a bad name.  I guess no one told you that the US has religious freedom. 
Fortunately no one is going to lock up folks who don't agree with your
bizarre religious eccentricities.

>>against the unbelievers in the Last War), but rather that we don't think
>>that any HUMAN was ever important enough to base a calendaring system

>   Well... we believe that He was not a normal human.  He IS the Son of God.
>That makes him important enough.

For you perhaps.  How about for everyone else (ie the majority of the
world which doesn't follow your faith).  As the CE/BCE is it merely a
dating system with an arbitrary (and irrelevant to most of the world) zero
point.  As AD/BC it is a Christian dating system.  I can't say I'm in
favor of this idea. 

>Ferdinand and Isabella completed the Reconquista.  Sent all them 
>"good boys" packing (in the dirt, mostly), though a few wisely 
>converted.

I bet you're so sad not to have been there to kill some non-Christians.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:44:30 EST
From: GhanII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump mines

     Hello,
      The closest thing to the idea of  jump mines was in MT. It''s called the
Jump Projector, a spinal mount at TL-21. It induces "a jump field around the
target, causing it to misjump." A related TL-21 item was a bay weapon called
the Jump Damper which inhibits "a target's ability to enter jumpspace."
       Ref: MT Referee's Manual p.59.

      Later, Doug Snyder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:44:55 EST
From: GhanII@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ringworld

      Hello, 
        The unfinished ringworld is in the Hinterworld sector, not in the
Vargr Extents. I believe you might have gotten the Rosette of  5(?) worlds in
the Vargr Extents mixed up with the ringworld.
        Later,
          Doug Snyder

  "We must never underestimate the importance of a really close look at 
    the native undergarments." -- Wil McCarthy -- "Flies from the Amber"

    Ustral Quadrant Web Page -- Just UWPs so far
    http://members.aol.com/ghanii/UstralQ/UQmain.htm
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:50:58 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> Drexlers major critisizers are commonly chemists, physical chemsists and
> his proponents are generally engineers, computer scientists and dopeheads.
> The problem lies within Drexlers picture of atoms as things that you can
> pick up and place somewhere. I have a small discussion about these things
> with comments from both sides in my Pilot and if anybody want it I can
> probably convert it back to ascii and send it by private e-mail.
> 
> I've bought Drexlers second book on the subject (not Engines of creation)
> which is supposed to deal with thermal stability, quantum uncertainty,
> cooling, diffusion etc but as far as I can tell he picks and chooses from
> the natural laws as he pleases. Each problem is dealt with in isolation
> from the other ones but a generally interesting read despite this as some
> of the things in it actually seem to work.
> 


I remember seeing a show in the last few months where a man was
manipulating atoms with some tactile feedback gloves and a
mini-computer.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:52:20 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

> >What does C.E. mean?
> 
> Common Era, it's used by those who don't want to acknowledge Christ with the
> use of A.D. (Anno Domini, Medieval Latin for "in the year of the Lord") or
> are afraid to offend those who don't want to.  B.C.E. is Before the Common
> Era (B.C.).
> 


Oh my God.  Is there no end to "political correctness"?  sheesh.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:02:50 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Wealthy Traveller income

searles@ix.netcom.com writes:

>I have a party member who is running a wealthy traveller for a PC.  She
>rolled to fully own a far trader.  Anyone have ideas as to how she could
>lease out the ship so that she still could have money coming in, but not
>the involvement of running a ship???  I don't have really any clues as
>to how to generate monthly income for this type of situation.

For a simple answer figure out how much the ship is worth now. A useful
rule of thumb is new price divided by number of decades the ship is old
(or divided by wear value if you use that). Something like 25% of new
price for a 40 year old ship. Of course, you can decide that the ship
is worth more or less because it is unusually well/unusualy badly
maintained.

Once you decided on the value of the ship you can decide on a reasonable
rate of return. Banks get 6.25% pa. in 12 monthly installments, so that
might be thought reasonable. I forget just how much a Free Trader costs
in T4. Something like 60-65 MCr? That would give your wealthy player
something like 80,000 Credits per month, which is a tidy sum. Always
provided the captain who leases the ship don't default on his payments
or decides to skip ;-).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 05:04:54 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

David P. Summers wrote:
[snip]

> The whole thing is silly hypersensitivity.  July is names after
> a pagan emperor and Thursday after the pagan god Thor.  However,
> even cristian Europe at it's most intolerant didn't have a
> problem with that.

Don't forget:

Sun's Day - Pagan Sun Worship
Moon's Day - Pagan Moon Worship
Tues' Day - another Norse god
Wednesday - from Wotan's Day - Wotan = Odin (Norse god)
Thor's Day (as you mentioned) (Norse god)
Frija's Day (Norse Goddess)
Saturn's Day (Roman God)

Now what would these be in Traveller?  Especially given the a fascination with base
16 numbering?

Solomani Day
Vilani Day
Aslan Day
Vargyr Day
K'Kree Day
Hivers Day
Grandfather's Day
Ancients Day
Nth Intersteller War Day
Jump Space Day
Cleon's Day
?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:09:49 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dumarest Novels

Whatcha askin?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:27:18 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Peter H. Brenton writes:
>Marc Wrote;
>>Mail (if fitted)	25,000
> 
>What is the cost of Mail fittings; This needs to be defined in this section
>or in Starship Construction.  There also needs to be a Quantity or max for
>Mail (or is it one unit at Kcr 25?) or everyone would just carry Mail.

I believe it is defined. The ship needs to be armed (to defend the mail
from would-be pirates) and you have to set aside 5 T of space as a
special area for storing the mail. IIRC you're not allowed use the space
for other purpose, but OTOH you get paid the Cr25,000 regardless of the
actual amount of mail (up to 5 T).

>[Ian Whitchurch] also proposed increasing freight fees based on the number
>of parsecs travelled in one week;
> 
>Jump 2  Cr. 1250/ton
>Jump 3  Cr. 1500/ton
> 
>This makes a lot of sense since speed (even relative between one week or
>two) should come at a premium.

You don't even have to invoke the saving in time (though that is an added
incentiv). I've worked out some (IMO) realistic rates for tickets and
freight rates for various jumps, and it turns out that jump-3 and jump-4
is the cheapest way to ship freight long distance (always provided the
ship isn't forced by astrography to jump short too often). Here's what I
worked out:



REGULAR PASSENGER LINER OR FREIGHTER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35
jumps per year):
             
           Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
           Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840
Jump-2:     1,500     1,800    3,800    6,600    8,400    1,170      585
Jump-3:     2,100     2,200    5,100    9,000   11,400    1,660      555
Jump-4:                                13,400             2,400      600
Jump-5:                                19,800             3,660      735
Jump-6:                                35,000             6,370    1,065

(The blank spots in the table I haven't take the time to calculate yet).

*Assuming the route is an exact multiple of the jump rating.

Note 1: The prices above was arrived at by designing a number of 600 T ships
each dedicated to one kind of passengers, ie. a ship with 1 T of cargo space
per passenger and 1 steward per 8 passengers for High Passengers, another
ship with negligible cargo space and 1 steward per 50 passengers for Mid
Passengers, a ship with small staterooms for Economy Passengers, a ship with
Low Berths and 1 medic per 20 berths for Low Passengers, and a ship with bunks
only for Steerage Passengers, plus a ship with cargo hold only for freight. 
In all cases, except the ships for Steerage passengers, the design included
emergency medical low berths enough to accomodate a full complement of crew
and passengers.

Also note that I based my calculations on life support costs a lot lower than
the official ones (roughly 1/4th). I then introduced a "misjump insurance" to
partly compensate for the reduction in expenses caused by my lowering of the
life support costs. It didn't quite compensate, so ticket prices are a tad
lower than they would be with the official rules. But with only the crew's
life support to account for in a freighter, the misjump insurance makes
freight rates higher than they would be with the official rules. However, I
think the costs would be proportionate to the figures I got.

Larger ships will reduce the costs further, but only if the worlds it serve
can supply enough passengers/freight to keep the ship filled an average of
90% on each trip.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 05:36:28 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> said,

[smip]
>I'd appreciate any comments from you, because (as you'll soon tell) I
>know very little about biology or zoology. I fully expect to rewrite
>this description, so whip out the proverbial red pen and make marks!

Overall, a good job. Sounds sufficiently dog-like to suggest its behavioral
patterns.

>Roran
>The Roran is a carnivorous chaser used mostly for sentry duty.
>Originally from somewhere in the Old Expanses sector, they have been
>transported to all parts of the Imperium over the course of centuries.
>
>In the wild, Rorans are cave dwellers who travel in packs ranging in

In Vilani, the plural would of course be 'Rorani', no?

>number from at least three to as many as eighteen. Studies of their bone
>structure and muscle distribution led researchers to conclude that they
>originated on a small, low-gravity world with a high C02 content.

About here you need more description of its morphology; how big is it?
what's its symmetry? (bilateral, I assume); how many limbs? what kind?
(long, short, number of joints, claws, etc.); stance & movement (crawling,
hopping; walking, etc); thermal regulation? (probably endothermic, i.e.
warm-blooded); what kind of structural support? (sounds like an
exoskeleton, or an endoskeleton with a chitinous carapace); does it have a
head, neck, etc?; major sensory organs (how many eyes, etc); placement of
mouth(s), teeth, etc...

>Soon after birth, the young Roran sprouts quills on top of its shell.
>These serve to protect the creature from predators until puberty. During
>this stage of development, the Roran also develops small suction cups
>under its feet. It uses them to suspend itself on cave walls and
>ceilings, again as a protective measure.

I think the cave walls would have to be rather wet and smooth for suction
cups to work. But maybe the Roran's home planet is indeed riddled with very
smooth-walled, damp caves...

[snippage]
>Several physical changes also occur at this time. The most important one
>is the (seemingly random) choosing of a gender. The Rorans suction cups
>and feet gradually disappear and are replaced by small wings. The armor
>shell on its back softens and becomes considerably more pliable, to
>enable the motions required for flight.

Sounds a bit like a cockroach or beetle: the shell probably opens to
release the wings, and closes to shields the wings when the Roran is
underground, or fighting.

The quills drop off at puberty? Too bad; I rather like the image of a
large, flying, carnivorous pack-hunting beetle covered in nasty porcupine
quills! Ungainly, perhaps...

>Adult Roran have the ability to fly for short periods in gravities of
>less than 0.5G, where the atmosphere is standard density or higher.
>
>Roran in the Imperium
>Rorans are very territorial and therefore make excellent sentry animals.
>There are two main difficulties the Roran owner needs to overcome.
>
>First, Rorans use their solid excrement as territorial markers. As the
>old feces dry up, new ones are used to replace them. The sense of smell
>of most humans is sorely tried by this trait.

Lovely. Flying carnivorous dung beetles.

[znip]
>Note to Players
>Picture the young Roran as a turtle with porcupine quills on its back.
>Picture the adult Roran has a sea tortoise.

Aha. That's much clearer. Doesn't sound much like something built to fly,
though. But if it's small, and evolved on a low-gravity world, who can say?

I rather wonder if the spines _and_ shell aren't redundant? Spines _or_
shell, I think: if you have one, you don't need the other.

>The Traveller characteristics for the adult Roran follow.
>
>Qty Animal Weight Hits Armor Wounds and Weapons
>3D6 Roran 50 kg 6/5 none 2 claws & teeth Am F6 S2

That's a good-sized flying tortoise. (Not as big as Gamera, though :) I
wonder how big its wings are? I take it the wings would be sort of
bat-like? In any case, they're extra limbs that don't emerge from under the
shell until after puberty.

My image of the adult Roran is roughly similar to a clawed tortoise with a
soft shell bisected down the middle. When it flies, its shell opens like
the gullwing doors on a DeLorean, releasing the batlike wings, about 2m in
span(?). The neck can extend quite a bit, to facilitate biting attacks, or
retract under the shell for protection.

I think the Roran would have to eat a _lot_, if it's going to have the
energy to fly. Your PC may need to blow his whole paycheque on huge sacks
of RoranChow...

All in all, a pretty cool ship's mascot.

If you can housetrain the thing, that is.

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
        "...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun:
      the raw, heady essence of interstellar civilization."
                        --Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #139
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 140



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship economics
Re: Jump Mines
Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
Starship Troopers
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Rome and the Imperium
Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
Re: Patriotism
re: Off Topic & CE/BCE
Re: What CE means
No expects the Version Inquisition!
re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: IFF it worked that way... 
re:Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium:What deadeye means about it all (Interesting!)
Re: Starship Economics
Re: What CE means
Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Ine Givar (long)
FF&S2 erata list updated

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:50:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Marc Miller writes:
>MERCHANT SHIP REVENUES
>Item	Income
>High Passage	Cr10,000
>Middle Passage	8,000
>Low Passage	1,000
>Cargo (per ton)	1,000
>Mail (if fitted)	25,000

Is there any chance that you could be persuaded to change the rules for
freight and passenger rates? The one flat rate for each type of transport
could be explained by government fiat, but not if the flat rates don't
allow a ship to earn enough to pay its expenses. That is, if there is a
rate for jump-1 and jump-6 High Passage, then the rate must allow a ship
to break even on the jump-6 passage (and make a KILLING on jump-1
passages). Otherwise there will be no jump-6 passenger liners (I know
there may not be any jump-6 passenger ships in the Imperium, but if so
the rules should make that clear, and at the very least there have been
several mentions of jump-4 passenger liners. And believe me, regardless
of what life support costs you use, there's no way a jump-4 passenger
liner is going to break even with Cr10,000 per cabin...

Furthermore the only way you can justify flat rates is by some sort of fiat
be it government of a cosy agreement between corporations (or so it seems to
me), and shouldn't the rules allow the referee to use a different setting?
Would such a fiat be identical or even exist in every interstellar state?
Would it exist outside interstellar states at all? Surely not.

Also, is there some reason why life support costs are so high? They seem
incompatible with the rules for basic living expenses and also at odds with
various rules for outfitting private ships mentioned here and there.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:50:00 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Mines

> If you *do* try this, you'll have to make the mines almost impossible to
> detect until the ships are among them, and that's going to be *very* hard.
> Hard for the same reason missles will have a tough time getting through
> point defenses. 
> 
> Shoot, if you can make mines that hard to detect, just put det-lasers in
> them.
> 
> 


I'm just 'woolgathering' in a philosphically warlike manner.  :)

As for using in my own game, if it blatantly violates science then I
can't use it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:45:11 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

> Really?  What were the statistics about the number of practicing,
> church-going, God-fearing denizens of the West?  How many are bar-hopping,
> butt-humping, and Sabbath-breaking instead?  (Or sleeping off the
> after-effects thereof... ;-)  I guess you don't believe in democracy, eh,
> when it doesn't suit?  I thought the moral majority couldn't be wrong...
> *evil grin*


If you count Christians who are without sin, the count drops to "0".

Sad but true.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:46:55 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

> >Oh, hey, AolerTNE, how's it feel to be paying another $2 bucks a month to be
> >LAME?
> 
> You know, this is sad.  You stoop to personal insults quite a number of times
> in your posts.  I guess you have no other way to get your point across, eh?
> 
> I wish I knew when I asked what CE was, it would lower so many people to such
> a horrible, embarassing state...
> 
> Semo


I too, hate AOL and think it needs to just DIE.  However, flaming the
poor people who were duped into it's ranks is NOT productive or fair.  I
myself was an AOLer, and I rue the day I ever signed up.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:32:57 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Starship Troopers

Hi, 
I know this was talked about (and fought over) months ago, I just saw
Starship Troopers (it only got here last Thursday).

I can see why some people thought it was great, and why a lot of people
didn't like it.

Cons: 
It was NOTHING like the book (though they hardly mentioned the book here).
The Navy were very slow learners, even for Navy.
The MI were too close together, fools.
They said all sorts of bad things about Military Intelligence.

Pros:
Lots of cool violence.
The Bugs were very, very cool (how do ya think they'll go in AD&D - that'll
teach 'em not to let me run Traveller - Heh Heh).
The news flashes and recruitment speils were such good takeoffs of
WWII/Korean War stuff.
Their Nazi uniforms (Afrika Korps?) were just wonderful.
The starships did look Travelleresque - like Valors or Coalition Clippers.

I took the advice of a friend and left my brain at the door, and
consequently had a great time.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:55:42 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

At 04:11 PM 10/02/98 -0600, Tony wrote:
>	The theory that marines just charge the hill and allow their bodies
>to pile up is totally false.  If you look at historical references to most
>major battles you will find that the ratio of marines lost is less than that
>of the army, or the enemy.  They have been known on several historical
>occasions to hold against far superior forces, with just a handful of
>marines.  If I were going into battle, I would much rather go in with the
>longer, superior training of a marine, than that of their other military
>colleagues.  Marines are generally well trained and disciplined troops,
>though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally controlled
>recklessness.

If I had to choose an army to be in based on casualty rates I think I'd go
with the WWII German Army, as they lost rather less men than those they
faced, under some pretty bad odds.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:43:24 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

At 02:01 AM 11/02/98 EST, Gary wrote:
>Ob Trav.... speaking of Legionarries.  Any work been done on the Julian
League
>outside of M:0?  The Star Legion sounds pretty cool... They whipped the 3I's
>butt and apparently stay independent throughout the existance of the Third
>Imperium until Virus get's em.

Yeah well, IMHO the 3I shows little real military competence from about the
Julian Wars onwards, but a great ability to get its own citizens killed.
Not to mention a lack of long term planning - they let the Julian
Protecorate stay independant and thus closed off a frontier, and then
ignored the Solomani so long that they had to let in on near even terms,
then alienated them - shutting off another frontier. Given lack of drive
and distance to the only frontier (the Spinward-Rinward corner of the SM)
the collapse of the 3I was then just a matter of time. If it hadn't ripped
itself up it would have stagnated and been eaten up by the Solomani, or the
K'Kree, or BEMs from The Core, or ...




- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:24:15 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

At 11:12 PM 10/02/98 -0600, David Reed wrote:

>Gotta love all
>the burning, pillaging, rapine, and rape that Pax Romana brought to my
>peaceful, singing Celtic ancestors.  They even had the gaul (sorry, had to
>use that pun!) to leave the Brits on *OUR* islands!!!  (Apologies to
>peaceful, nonflammable citizens of the UK who may unnecessarily be offended
>by my distantly Irish humor.)
I hope that peaceful bit was a joke 'cause the Celts were where the Romans
got chainmail from.

>I'm sure that Chaucer, Sturluson, Dante, and de Troyes would agree with you
>about the Middle Ages being a much darker and more illiterate time.  Oh, and
>some guy named Pythagorus might have some interest, too.  I guess if you're
>only counting West-of-What? tradition it might not be as bright as, say,
>MTV, Ellen, and Titanic.  Nah, I'll go back to Bede.  (Sorry for that pun,
>too.)  Oh, some guy named Shakespeare wants to talk to you...

Skakespeare wasn't 'Medieval', he was Elizabethan - post Renaissance.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:39:22 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

At 10:35 PM 10/02/98 -0600, Deadeye wrote:
>> What the hell has this to do with traveller?
>
>
>Maybe his flag waving a bit off, but it does have a bit to do with Trav. 
>
>I am developing a campaign where ideals like these mean a lot.  Not that
>they are sacred or anything, but my campaign addresses the issues and
>things that bind societies together.
>
>We are the WEST. (Even New Zealand.)  Descended from Europe with all her
>well known faults.  
Why thankyou - so many people don't even know where we are.

>
>Although I wear a US flag on my shoulder, don't doubt for a minute I
>would personally blow the shit out of anyone who fucked with my blood, 
>that "blood" being all of YOU.  I would fight and maybe die for you and
>so would ALL my service bros-this I know for a fact.  (Even the guys
>going to the airlines.  They are just tired of getting shit on by a
>country that has no use for soldiers in peacetime. See R. Kiplings
>"Tommy.")  That is why I get disturbed by hotdogs and careless F-15
>guys- you get the wrong message about what is going on when WE are not
>responsible custodians of our collective "treasures."

Come to NZ, where our military budget is under 2% of the GDP, and dropping
(in real terms). Our army got its first SAMs a few months back, probably to
divert people from the army's statements that it had to ask the Brits and
Canadians for protection whilst on peacekeeping in Bosnia. The only reason
people don't contsantly look down on the armed forces is because they
forget we even have one.

>Generally there is a very strong vein of honor and duty still in the US
>military that our current society cannot comprehend.
>
>If we(US forces) feel this way then Imperial troops, inculcated for 1100
>years(-100 of those barrcks wars) are going to feel similar if not
>stronger.  They have a lot in common in the Imperial ideal, even if they
>are from disparate worlds.  In a sense the Imperial identity is loyal to
>no one world wheras the colonial/sector forces are.  
>
>What about in C 0?  There is no unified Imperial Force, although Cleon
>is doing his best to make it happen.  Of course, it does in time.

Even the Territorial Forces here have our sense of tradition and history,
and all our armed forces have a proud history of honour, etc.

- -- Rupert Boleyn,
   ex Lance Corporal Boleyn, 5WWCT RNZIR

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:52:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Off Topic & CE/BCE

SemoFetus@aol.com

>Can we please kill the CE and BCE/AD and BC
>discussion?

Seconded.

>If you aren't going to stop
>the discussion, please put your brain in gear before putting your typing
>fingers into motion, or take the personal insults to private e-mail

All of us have differing beliefs (I doubt you'd get the same answers from
two people who nominally profess the same religion or politics), but the
TML is not the place to discuss these as (1) they're off topic, (2) once
the lines are drawn the positions rarely change and (3) it just isn't
constructive.

Please do us the courtesy of taking this off the list.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:14:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:
>Why don't we take 001-2001 A.D. as an opportunity to
>fix our calendars and all the tinkering the Julian, Gregorian, etc. have
>caused, add a year 0 as there ought to be, etc., and be done with the
>damn thing.

Hurrah! A Holiday Year!

It'd fix that Millenium bug thing too...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:19:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: No expects the Version Inquisition!

"Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>wrote:

>Senor Mooney:
<snip>
>Dom, you shouldn't take every piece of bait, and you don't.  ;-)

I try not to - if I did I'd spend my life emailing this list ;->

>CT was great, when I was 12.  MegaTraveller/Rebellion Era was outstanding
>(still the best art around even if the rules blew orphaned llama).  TNE was
>*sigh*.  TNE did have some of the most moving quotes, though ("To absent
>friends" will always cause my eyes to leak - apologies to Mork).  T4 is
>pretty good, considering, and we play it -- just because.  But overall
>HARDTIMES was the most fun, most morally challenging, and the best
>Travelling we ever did (with CT rules).

I agree. Hard Times is (IMO) the best MT supplement. One of the reasons
TNE's Virus hurt so much was seeing all those pocket empires starting to
rebuild in Hard Times and then realising that Virus just snuffed them out.

I'd rate Arrival Vengeance as one of the best scenarios for the way it
showcased the devastation in the Imperium (not sure how playable it is
though). The meeting with Strephon is done superbly. Survival Margin is the
other great supplement (especially as a MT background book).

><Engage halon dispersal system!!!>

Don't forget the oxygen mask ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:10:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Systems and Milleaus...

"Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net> wrote:

>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

T4 with T4.1 tasks, High Guard/CT Ships (before that MT)

>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
Hard Times in MT (although T4 made me restart a classic 1105 campaign, and
M0 looks increasingly interesting).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:48:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way... 

Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>

>SD Mooney wrote:
>> Or the British unit attached to the Warrior APC that got trashed by mistake
>> by the USAF.

>I think he already memntioned that.  At least someone did.

Possibly :-\

But at the rate Digests are coming in... I reckon my return posts are
running about 5 or six digests behind at the moment, and that's if I read
the digest straight away. Hence the repetition, not intended.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:38:29 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium:What deadeye means about it all (Interesting!)

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:

>Okay, rant off.  If you like this keep yapping and I'll say more.

"Please sir, can I have some more?"

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:23:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

"Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net> wrote:

>I don't recognize your terms (Traveller wise).  If they were used in any
>thing but CT & T4 then I missed them.  In those 2 cargo is what you call
>freight.  You ship it for someone else at a profit.  Speculative Cargo is
>what you call cargo.  It's something you buy and ship with the hopes of
>making a profit.

The confusion between freight and cargo is one of the big flaws in T4's
rulebook. I ended up going back to the MT tables to handle this.

cargo - speculative
freight - boxes for 1000 Cr/dt

One thing I'd like to see is a slightly higher life support charge for High
Passage (not a lot, say 250Cr) to represent the costs of
food/service/consumables...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:09:04 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: What CE means

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:
> >Why don't we take 001-2001 A.D. as an opportunity to
> >fix our calendars and all the tinkering the Julian, Gregorian, etc. have
> >caused, add a year 0 as there ought to be, etc., and be done with the
> >damn thing.
> 
> Hurrah! A Holiday Year!
> 
> It'd fix that Millenium bug thing too...
Or better still: Take the date the international Space Station goes
operational, or the day we land on mars and start a whole new era. That
way we could start in year 0 and finally get rid of the old
"Christ"-Scale...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:04:29 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

J-Man wrote:
> 
> > >Oh, hey, AolerTNE, how's it feel to be paying another $2 bucks a month to be
> > >LAME?
> >
> > You know, this is sad.  You stoop to personal insults quite a number of times
> > in your posts.  I guess you have no other way to get your point across, eh?
> >
> > I wish I knew when I asked what CE was, it would lower so many people to such
> > a horrible, embarassing state...
> >
> > Semo
> 
> I too, hate AOL and think it needs to just DIE.  However, flaming the
> poor people who were duped into it's ranks is NOT productive or fair.  I
> myself was an AOLer, and I rue the day I ever signed up.
Although AOL does have its benefits: It s possible to sign up again
and again for unlimited free access. 
Plus, MM is aol er ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:34:08 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 02/10/98 at 06:03 PM,  TravelrTNE@aol.com said:
> 
> >techno/xeno-phobic natives destroyed it and to restore the "capitalism"
> >(read: trade, commerce and a fragment of interstellar society) lacking the
> >moral repugnance and arrogance of the late and lamented Last Imperium. 
> 
> That might have been the *stated* purpose, but that's not the way it *felt*
> to me...or the way most players I encountered *played*
> Starvikings.  The RCES weren't shining knights bringing civilization to the
> poor and downtrodden, except in their propaganda and maybe their own minds. 
> They *were* Reavers, looters, who benefited from what they "removed" from
> the wilds.

I think that was part of the purpose. You weren't suppose to like the RC
politics, or ways of behaving. It was a way of showing that it is a harse
world out there and to survive you had to play rough. Either the players
learnt that and played along with the RC or they stayed to their ideals
and fought the RC any way they could. 

> 
> >>I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.
> 
> Now, *that's* sad!  The US might or might not engage in economic
> imperialism (and that might or might not be good), but I know the US and
> we're no RCES.

I actually think that RC is more like british colonialisme than US
imperialisme.

> You know, I liked TNE's rules (as much as I like *any* rules ;-), but not
> the RC setting.  That setting just didn't hit me as uplifting, pulling
> worlds out of the darkness.  It *felt* cold and vicious to me. It didn't
> *have* to be that way, but that's the way it felt.

Just wondering. Why does a setting have to be uplifting, pulling worlds
out of the darkness? I think that the RC setting was great because it gave
the players a different enemy, their own government (if you as a GM played
on it) when they saw the way the RC tended to act. Great setting for
political drama IMHO.

> Eris

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:34:05 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Ine Givar (long)

Facinating subject, one of the most used elements of CT but one of the least
well defined; sort of a utiltarian generic terrorist group. Well what does
canon have to say about the Ine Givar? (especially since they are likely to
become important again in GURPS:T).

Well we know that they are a large well organised militant anti-Imperial
group operating in the Spinward Marches around 1100 Imperial, financed by
the Zhodani and the Sword Worlds. Adventure 7 Broadsword tells us that they
existed in 1083 when they tried to recruit the Tanoose Freedom League into
their organisation. This implies that there are actually a number of distinct
subgroups within the Ine Givar. There is a TNS entry from the Rebellion era
in Challenge 58 (101-1123) which mentions an attempt by Norris to reach a
settlement with the Ine Givar, and the Ine Givar's rejection of the overtures.
Another entry in Challenge 60 (154-1124) mentions a pro-Ine Givar student
demonstration. This gives their motto as "Agitate, Educate, Organise" (this
is in it self very reveiling). This entry also has them handing out leaflets
reading "The moment for democracy is now" (also quite reveiling) and says they
have green armbands. So I'll try to build a movement from this very slender
information.

Overview: The Ine Givar are an early expresion of the tensions that were
building in the latter years of the 3rd Imperium (which would ultimately
lead to Dulinor's assassination of Strephon, the Rebellion, and then to
Norris's democratic reforms in the regency). However they were before their
time and got frustrated at attempts at peaceful reform and turned to
violence.

History: Ine Givar was born on Rhylanor in 948. His parents were minor noble
"placekeepers" of the type which became increasingly common in the latter
Imperium. As he grew up, he travelled with his parents on many of the "fact
finding" make work missions that were the lot of a minor noble. During these
missions he became aware of the many oppressive and corrupt regimes that the
Imperium turned a blind eye to. These early travels were to have a profound
influence on him, leaving him deeply dissolusioned with the Imperium.

He enrolled in the University of Rhylanor in 966, studing political science.
A very talented student, at first he excelled at his studies, gaining his
bachelors degree with first class honors in 970. However he had increasingly
become involved in politics during this time, gradually building up a group
of dedicated followers. He gained his Masters with honors in 968 and his
doctorate in 974. However rather than move into a comfortable job in the
bureacracy, he choose to devote his life to agitating for peaceful democratic
changes to the "corrupt Imperial system". This rapidly gained him much
official disfavour, but did not prevent him from building up a subsector wide
following. With the comming of the Third Frontier War he was detained as a
"threat to security" in 980 and died in custody in 984. Normally, other than
a few minor protests, this would have been the end of the matter. However,
the authorities had not taken his lover, Kisla Famia, into account. Born into
the lower classes of Rhylanor, her great-grandparents and grandparents had
been executed during the psionic suppressions and she bore an almost
fanatical hatred of the Imperium. She also had an enormous talent for media
manipulation. With the end of the war and her own release in 987 she launched
a massive media campaign to "uncover the truth about Ine Givar's death".
Eventually this bore fruit and in 990 an offical inquiry was conveined. Over
the course of the inquiry, the evidence mounted that Givar had been subjected
to systematic brutalisation and torture. Naturally his supported expected
that those responsible would be brought to justice. However when the inquiry
finally delivered its finding in 992, it reported that Givar's death was a
"regretable accident caused by his failure to cooperate fully with his
jailors".

In late 992, his supporters organised a mass rally outside the Rhylanor Naval
base (where Givar had been imprisoned) to demand those responsible be called
to task. It is uncertain just what happened, but during the demonstration a
detachment of Imperial Marines opened fire on the crowd. In the resulting
chaos and panic at least 700 demonstrators were killed.

From Kisla Famia's declaration after the Rhylanor massacre:
"The Empire speaks of honor; where was their honor when they murdered
Ine, where was their honor when they let his killers go free to ply their
vile trade, where was their honor when they slaughered these innocents?
Where is their honor when they allow despots and tyrants kill and torture
and maim their citizens? They have no honor!"
"Ine believed in democracy, Ine also believed that democracy could be
achieved by peace and negotiation. They do not want peace, they do not want
democracy, they want only power and blood. If they want blood, I say let them
have blood! They tell us that the path to democracy is through patience and
negotiation; they tell us now is not the right moment. I say the time for
negotiation is over, the moment for democracy is now!"

From this point on, the Ine Givar movement abandoned peaceful change and
moved to terrorism to achieve their aims. Their first action was the dramatic
bombing of the Imperial Naval Intelligence headquarters on Rhylanor. Typical
of the bold audacious actions that became their trademark under Famia's
leadership. Within five years there were Ine Givar cells on most worlds
within the Domain of Deneb, within sixteen they had become the dominant
anti-Imperial movement in the Domain, and had cells extending as far as
Capital itself. The movements early highwater mark came in 1020 when Famia
masterminded an assassination attempt on the entire Imperial family. The
attempt failed, but it did leave Emperor Paulo's younger brother Elmor dead.

Around 1035, a shift occured in the movement's leadership. Famia was by now
96 years old and her health was failing. She stepped down and Ine Givar's
son Natise took over the movements leadership. Natise Givar had both his
father's charisma and his mother's tactical and adminstrative abilities. He
also nursed a lasting hatred over his father's death. Under his leadership,
the movement grew in both strength and efficency. Natise planned for the
long term, contacts were made with the Zhodani and Sword Worlds; and their
support was gained. Other terrorist groups were absorbed or eliminated and
the organisations targets came to include the megacorporations which
supported the Imperium.

In 1067 a leadership coup replaced Natise with Votan Gamiilash, one of the
movements "young turks". Under Gamiilash the movement abandoned most of its
activities beyond Corridor sector, concentrating almost exclusivly on the
domain of Deneb. Gamiilash also changed the movements focus; under her
leadership it became far more tied and dependent on Zhodani and Sword Worlds
support. It was under Gamiilash that the movement struck its first purely
civilian target. In 1075, Ine Givar operatives smuggled a fusion warhead
into the city of Kashar on Zivije. The resulting blast caused over 5,000,000
casulties (including 2,800,000 dead). It was as a result of this atrocity
that the Zhodani instigated an bloody coup in the movement and replaced
Gamiilash with a committee headed by Wardn Sortin in 1077.

This committee structure was to dominate the movement's leadership for the
next 40 years. Under the committee, the Ine Givar became little more than
an extension of the Zhodani and Sword Worlds intelligence services. The
Ine Givar were a major factor in the Fourth Frontier War. Ine Givar guerillas
tied up many Imperial troops which could have been better employed at the
front and provided invaluable intelligence to the Outworld Coalition. It was
Ine Givar agents who discovered that Imperial Naval Intelligence had
compromised the Zhodani's deep space base between Yres and Menorb and lead
to the Battle of Two Suns (however it did not prevent the Coalition from
lossing the battle).

After the Fourth Frontier War, the Ine Givar curtailed their activities
and rebuilt their strength for the next war. They continued to stike at
Imperial targets and fostered unrest on a number of worlds. As the Fifth
Frontier War drew nearer, their activities increased. Guerilla cadres were
established and on Efate and Ruie they moved to almost open warfare. With
the outbreak of the Fifth Frontier War in 1107, the Ine Givar sprung into
action. The carefully groomed Guerilla cadres tied down many Imperial troops
in the openning stages and provided bridgeheads on a number of worlds.
However the war was to prove to be a major setback for the movement. As the
Coalition campaign faultered, the Ine Givar cadres were left stranded and
destroyed. Much of the movement's strength was lost in the latter stages
of the war. The movement felt deeply betrayed by the Zhodani; and in 1114
Rojel Nuguma seized control of the movement. He greatly reduced the movement's
ties to the Zhodani and Sword Worlds and set about rebuilding and replacing
the lost cells. However, the movement had nearly been destroyed in the
Fifth Frontier War and it took a long time to recover. It was not until the
mid 1120's that the movement began to resume activities.

It's late now. I'll try to finish this tommorrow.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:43:11 -0500
From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: FF&S2 erata list updated

Greetings.
I've recently updated the FF&S2 errata list.  This update include changing
the Damage value equations for Lasers, PAWs and Meson guns.  Lasers are
being changed from DV=2.5(I^.5) (the 2.5 looks like 25 in the book) to
DV=3.6(I^.5), PAWs are being changed from DV=5*DM*(I^.5) to DV=7.1*DM*(I^.5)
and Meson guns from DV=5*(I^.5) to DV=7.1*(I^.5).  Damage for these weapons
was suppose to be increase from FF&S1 to FF&S2 but seemed to have been
overlooked (this was mentioned on TravTech list and confirmed by Guy.

The FF&S errata list can be found on either Joe Heck's web pages
(http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/index.html) or on my web pages.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
the Draconis Cluster Traveller Web pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #140
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 141



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Flat Campaigns
Re: Jump Space
Re: JSpace and alternate campaigns (was Re: Jump Space)
Re: Starship Economics
From The Archives
Re: What CE means
Re: CE
Re: Wealthy Traveller Income
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)
Re: GURPS Traveller
3D sectors
Re: What CE means to me
STRIKER (1st. Ed.) Sale Update
Why sign up? was re: Patriotism
Re: Annoying Language
OOPS
Re: Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!
Re: Systems and Milleaus
Traveller Minor Race Generation
Re: Starship Economics
BCE/CE
Re: Military roleplaying
Re: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:48:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

In mail you write:

>>> What's with all this hand waving about the flat maps.  When the
>>> players ask why they are flat, I say, "Because this is a 2
>>> dimensional representation of the 3 dimensional reality."

>>> If they don't like that, I say, "Hey lighten up, it's only a game."

>> If I'm ever in that situation I'll dig out the Star Force: Alpha
>> Centauri star map, point out a star, and ask then to tell me what
>> stars are within jump 3 of it. :-)

> I take it that's one of those 3D maps with the Z coordinate given as +/-N
> printed next to the star symbol.

Well, I could drag out the Traveller 2300 star map with similar results.

> Those are only fun to use if you like trig.  They add realism at the
> expense of playability.  Especially if you use a game system like the
> Traveller jump drives.

My point is that *no* 2-d representation works all that well. The
closest is the paired XY/XZ maps like Battlefleet Mars used for combat.
But even they have their problems. 

So until we have a cheap, 3d display, we'll have to live with 2-D maps.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:35:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Space

In mail you write:

> One week regardless of distance jumped.  It doesn't matter how far you jump,
> it takes 1 week +/-.  The jump between Earth and Mars would take a week.
> The jump between Sol and Alpha Centari would take a week.  If you misjumped
> going from Sol to Alpha Centari and got lucky and emerged in the system of
> Canopus (some 30 parsecs distance), it would still take you 1 week +/-.

Ahem.

Acoording to the misjump rules in the Traveller book. A misjump can
take up to 6 weeks. Again, regardless of distance travelled. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:04:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: JSpace and alternate campaigns (was Re: Jump Space)

In mail you write:

> However, this thread has me thinking again. Say I want to do a setting in
> which a jump drive was simply a hyperdrive (kinda like the subspace drive in
> FF&S), where the jump number actually denotes speed? What you would have is
> a jump-1 ship traveling 1 parsec in 1 week, and a jump-6 ship traveling one
> parsec in 1/6th a week. Everything else is the same -- fuel usage (no matter
> the reason), the size threshold for jump-capable vessels, the fact that once
> a ship jumps it cannot change course, nor can it communicate with normal
> space, and so on. How would *this* affect the setting? Off the top of my
> head, I don't see this as changing something like long-distance
> communications (where long-distance means sectors across). Certainly it will
> change details, but would it make it so that the Imperium as a whole
> wouldn't develop (as the instant jump idea seemed to do)? How would it
> affect regional wars? How would it affect commerce? What about the price of
> Pan-Galactic Gargleblasters on Regina?

It's like this, under the "jump takes 1 week"  rule, if I do something
and then jump out of system, then *even if you know where I'm jumping
to*, you *can't* get there first. 

With your version, you can, if you have a ship with a higher jump
number. This gets important for such things as warning of attacks, and
intercepting couriers bearing news that you don't wish spread about.

In short, your rule makes it possible to "overtake" a ship. Which has
serious consequences.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:15:47 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

In a message dated 98-02-10 16:55:55 EST, you write:

<< 
 That makes sense. However, that's not the roll I'm wondering about. I want to
 know about the roll for what _types_ of speculative cargo is available, not
how
 much one can buy of each.
 
 
  >>
Freight (carried for a fee) is shwon in the table in tons. Cargo (speculative)
has an unlimited availability (and is priced per ton).

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:15:57 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: From The Archives

If you have sent in your $3 stamp already, your request for various archival
Traveller maps and things will be filled. If not, I am forced to close this
offer until I can get some more stuff pulled out of the cartons in storage.

Thanks for your interest. I have probably 40 packages that I will get sent off
this week.

Marc Miller

PS. Not everyone gets the same thing... contents are in many ways random based
on what was close at hand.

M

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:15:55 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: What CE means

In a message dated 98-02-10 16:43:13 EST, you write:

<< 
  I'm afraid I must disagree.  CE means European Community and reflects that
the product is safe to use. Much liek UL in the US.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:11:41 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: CE

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 2:23 AM
Subject: CE


>You - Snipped -   I MEAN IT! >
kenji@accessone.com


Kenji,
You wrote some of the loveliest epithetical prose I've read in some
time. However, what are you talking or rather blathering about?

Please advise
Pat Connaughton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:25:40 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Wealthy Traveller Income

Cygnus,
I suggest that you consider the arrangement many people who
own barges, rail-road cars, trailers or other similar trading and cargo
carriers utilize. They arrange with a reputable service or agency
to lease out the units (trailers, barges etc) to various operators in
exchange for insurance premiums paid, operating and maintenance
expenses and a share of the profits. This generates a fair monthly
income based upon the route or area the unit is assigned to as well
as giving the owner the freedom to do as they please.

A similar situation applies with ocean going vessels only it tends more
to be a syndicate style arrangement versus simples lease/operator
 realtionship. Also, the share of the profits is a bit more equal.

If you check the phone book in most coastal cities you'll find a variety of
these kinds of businesses.

It would all depend on the reputation and reliability of the operator. It
would
probably make a good campaign twist for the PC to regularly get his or
her check but also various complaints and problems for them to deal with
at a remove.

Hope this helps.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:29:52 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Marines are generally well trained and disciplined troops,
> though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally controlled
> recklessness.
> 
>         Tony


Yep, generally in bars.  Nobody I'd want on my side on the ground more
than Marines, though.  They have an attitude you cannot find in any of
the other services.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:18:24 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)

For the record - this is what our group uses.

>> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

MT with slight in house modifications.
>> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
5th Frontier War
>c) Currently playing?
Beginning of the 5th Frontier War

Thanks
Pat Connaughton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:44:02 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
>Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or 
>you
>are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, 
>most MT
>campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.

During WWII the merchant marine played a significant and interesting role
in keeping the flow of supplies moving.  Also "Air-America" in Cambodia
during the Vietnam War.  These could be an interesting source of
non-military activity for players.

Other wartime scenarios for civilians could include:
Gathering intelligence for one or both sides,
Running contraband in or out of areas,
Political involvement,
Bodyguards or Secret Service for diplomats,
Rescuing prisoners of war which the government deny even exist,
etc.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 15:09:20 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: 3D sectors

Hello,

I am currently writing a generic star system generator and galaxy
mapping program (Pascal) that is intended to be used by SF referees
for creating and mapping their gaming universes. It uses real
scientific data for much of it's calculations and there begin the
problems:

2D Hexmaps (as used in Traveller) aren't very realistic; I am not
particulary well inclined to them, so I decided to make use of 3D
sectors.

This is a general outline of the 3D sector I had in mind.
It is an isometric cube that uses a cartesian coordinate
system, where every coordinate is one parsec. The stepping
should be about 0.1 parsec.


- -------------<use monospaced font>---------------

               0,10,10
              /|
             /||
            /|/|
           /|/||
          /|/|/|
         /|/|/||
        /|/|/|/|  
       /|/|/|/||
0,0,10/|/|/|/|/|0,10,0
     ||/|/|/|/|/\
     |/|/|/|/|/\/\
     ||/|/|/|/\/\/\
     |/|/|/|/\/\/\/\
     ||/|/|/\/\/\/\/\
     |/|/|/\/\/\/\/\/\
     ||/|/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
     |/|/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
     ||/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
     |/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
 0,0,0\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/10,10,0  
       \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
        \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
         \/\/\/\/\/\/\/
          \/\/\/\/\/\/
           \/\/\/\/\/
            \/\/\/\/
             \/\/\/
              \/\/
               \/
                10,0,0

- -------------------------------------------------

Despite being not much larger (x and y) than a Traveller
Subsector, a 3D sector houses more systems.

In our region of the galaxy, there is about one star system
every 12.5 to 23.8 cubic parsec with an average of about one
system every 17.29 cubic parsec. For sector cube with 10 parsec
on each side that means the number of systems ranges from about
42 to 80, with an average of 58 (I think Traveller has something
between 20 to 40 systems per Subsector).

Now my question:

Has anyone any experience with this kind of sector mapping? The
calculations aren't too difficult, but I am interested in whether
it is possible to bring a 3D isometric shape to paper in printable
(and more important, readable) form.

That question especially goes to deadeye (if I got it right, you are
working on something similar, too)

Yes, Ok, I _was_ lurking. Go and sue me ;-))

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:24:34 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

Bruce Johnson writes:
 
>> What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards under >>this
>> new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
>> leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore...
>
>rest of rant snipped 
>
>Uhhh....CE and BCE have been common usage among anthropologists and
>archaeologists for quite some time now, decades, I think. It's not
>political correctedness run amok. 

   Political Correctness is not something that just popped up one day
several years ago and said 'boo'!  It started in the 1960s and gradually
spread through American academia (sort of like cancer) until finally coming
to public attention in the late 1980s.

>Lighten the $%# up dudes!

   It's one thing to point out how absurd PC (and I don't mean 'player
character') is, and to object to the use of BCE/CE as "intellectual
wallpaper", but when virtual holy wars start to flare up, it is most
certainly time to lighten the $%# up dudes.  Discussions of "real world"
religion beliefs only have a place here if they can be done so in a
dispassionate fashion--if you can't, don't.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:29:51 -0800
From: Joel Pratt <jpratt@ucla.edu>
Subject: STRIKER (1st. Ed.) Sale Update

I'm still selling a nearly-mint copy of the original boxed STRIKER. The
current bid is $45 (plus shipping). Email me  (jpratt@ucla.edu) for more
details.


- --Joel Pratt
jpratt@ucla.edu
http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~jpratt

"Bill Clinton does not have the moral fiber to be a mass murderer."
 -- Nobel Peace Prize recipient Dr. Henry Kissinger, Spring 1997

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:37:15 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Why sign up? was re: Patriotism

Reed DE Wrote:

This is only one possible motivation for "joinin' up."  But a good one from
a sci-fi and space opera perspective.  Don't try to press all of your
military types into this mold though, but I have to take exception to the
"for education and training" concept -- once you leave your homeworld,
what's the likelihood that you will ever see it again (to return to put your
hard-earned skills to use)?  And I don't me dying for the "starburst" but
just the logistics of getting back home once mustered out in the next
sector...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I recall one of the Dominic Flandry books, Flandry was on hand during an Imperial suppression of a rebel planet. An Imperial infantryman was seriously injured nearby, and suffered from delusions while dying (thought a fountain statue was a religious figure appearing to him) - he begged his goddess for forgiveness, as he had joined the Imperial military and taken part in these pacification campaigns - "We forged these people's chains tighter so we could learn to break our own". He and his friends would do _anything_ to free their own homeworld from Imperial control - they had joined the Imperial military to learn weaponcraft and Imperial Counter-Insurgency tactics. Two years, five years, however many years later the thousand enlistees from his homeworld who survived to muster out make their way homewards and form the cadre of a very dangerous rebellion.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:54:29 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>>Noone denies there was technical progress after the fall of Rome.  But it was
>>a much more illiterate and savage time than the Pax Romana enjoyed for so
>>long.  Much of Roman culture and civilization was lost and Rome *was* the
>>"world."
>>
>>Gary

   Gary: Life in Rome outside of the neighborhoods occupied by the wealthy
(and the small middle class) was not exactly what you would call
"comfortable".  Think the worst of Dicken's London only much worse.  Bad
sanitation, frequent plagues, overcrowded conditions, etc.  People in the
countryside didn't have it much better, because while conditions were less
crowded, back breaking labor was the rule.

>That's a very 'western' POV, you know. In fact most of the Roman culture
>and civilization was not lost but alive and well in the Eastern Roman
>(Byzantine) Empire, until the Arabs, Crusaders and Italian city sataes did
>for it.

   What survived in Byzantium was more Greek than Latin.  In fact it would
be fair to say that Byzantium was *Greek* civilization (certainly modern
Greeks seem to think so), with Roman titles and some Latin thrown in for flavor.

   The massive debt we owe Byzantium in the West (and to a certain extent
the Arabs and Turks) stems from the fact that it did preserve many bits and
pieces of our Latin roots that would have otherwise been lost.  These bits
and pieces *heavily* influenced the Renaissance and later Scientific Revolution.

   ObTrav: I see the states of the Solomani Rim (Dingir League, Old Earth
Union, Vegan Polity, Easter Concord) more or less serving the same purpose
for the Third Imperium that Byantium did for the West.  Those states would
have preserved at least some portion of the culture of the Second Imperium,
and contact with those states would have greatly influenced the 3I in its
development.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:32:21 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: OOPS

If you see a reply on 3D sectors by "J-Man", please delete it.  I
accidently emailed an attachment along with my reply to Stephan, but it
went to the list instead of him.

My humblest apologies to the list for my screw-up.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:05:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Here's a library data entry I made up some years ago about that subject:
> 
> LAST WILL:  Colloquial  naval  name for a special closed data-pack
> used to keep secret orders,  passwords,  call-codes, astrogational 

SNIP

> Pressing the erase button will erase all data bit by bit. Pressing 
> the  retain  button will reset a 12-hour timer.  Should the retain 
> button  not  be pressed again before the timer runs out,  the data 
> will be erased. 

I'd modify that only by taking off the 'retain' button, and by making the
'erase' button set off the thermite charge lining the case.
ffffwwwwhhooooosh! no more codebook.

A 12 hour 'retain' setting is bad if your ship's been captured...who's to
stop the capturing party from pressing it.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:27:49 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus

Andrew Akins wrote:
> My players and I were having a discussion...
>
> I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to take a
poll:
>
> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

a) My group uses MT (Advanced) character generation with homebrew
   rules for background, MT task system without time  rules,  and
   MT combat system without interupts ... run 'Paranoia' style.

b) CT  campaign:  Spinward  Marches  -   5FW  military  campaign.
   (Military troubleshooters who seem to cause more trouble  than
   they 'shoot'!).

Regards PLST
- --------------------------------------------
email1: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
email2: ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk
web: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen
- --------------------------------------------

___________________________________
If this is a spam, please report it by forwarding to spam@postmaster.co.uk.
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:17 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Traveller Minor Race Generation

I have a set of four pages or so of charts just completed for Minor Race
Generation. The charts talk you through creating a character generation card
which has the details of Characteristics, body structure, aging, etc for a
minor race (which may turn out to be human, or non human).

Although the charts are dice driven, races can also be designed through
choice.

The file is a zipped Word For Windows95 set. I can email to anyone who
requests it 

email me at FarFuture@AOL.com

Marc Miller


Although the Traveller universe is human-dominated, it is also a cosmopolitan
territory filled with a vast array of non-human intelligences. Many settled
worlds boast a native intelligent race which evolved long before humanity
arrived.

ASSUMPTIONS
	This alien race generation system assumes that aliens occupy roughly the same
environments as humans.
	A Minor Race. The alien race is minor it comes from one homeworld and has
only a limited presence more than 10 parsecs from that world.
	In Interstellar Society. Races created live within the greater social and
economic structure of interstellar society; they compete with all others and
with humans for jobs. They may attempt any career available.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:01 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

In a message dated 98-02-11 01:46:20 EST, you write:

<< 
 Q:  Does this mean that cargo for hire is now to be referred to as Freight
 and speculative cargo is now to be referred to as Cargo?
 
  >>
This is a distinction I have been trying to make, and helps the players'
understanding. Freight you carry for others at a set cost; Cargo is what you
bought and put in the hold hoping to sell for a good price when youget
somewhere. And I agree that loading the hold with 25cc fine rings, or
diamonds, could make the total cost of filling it pretty high.

BTW, I saw John Candy in a movie the other day talking about the potential for
making money.. <more or less quote>  "So, I can make $4 an hour. Does that
mean, if I'm willing to put in the time and I worked say 3 billion hours, I
could make 12 billion dollars?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:52:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: BCE/CE

Please take the flame war about BCE/CE and discussion of world culture
to private email...

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:10:19 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

>From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
>
>--------> I haven't been in the military, but I see it as full of all 
kinds of potential. Given a moderately hardware-interested group, 
there's all kinds of things you can do, whether a ship crew, a small 
ground pounder unit, whatever. Lots of people played Twilight2000, and 
there you were limited to only 1 planet...and there's a whole lotta 
people play some game called "Mechwarrior" where you have a bunch of 
military types roaming around during a civil war. Not Traveller, but 
it's still  a military focus...
>

I've never tried this but always have wanted to...  During the Character 
Generation phase of CT (don't know what the other CharGen systems are 
like), use the assignment as the basis for an adventure.  I realize that 
most of the characters would have to be in the same service, but I've 
always tried to figure out how the skill was received/the wound 
occured/whatever.

Seems to me that a Strike mission would make for a couple of great 
adventures...  And so what if you get a term on planet...  you could 
skip adventuring there and move on...

Thoughts?  Anyone try this?

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:54:31 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Moral dilemnas in Traveller (was: IFF it worked that way)

>No it's not. Your player characters are dead if they can't talk their way
>out of it. THAT'S the way out I was talking about. They have a chance.
>Players tend to get pissed at being put into inescapable traps, unless
>they're tired of playing those characters.

Well, just let me put it like I see it:  There's always two (or sometimes
more) sides to a moral dilemna, both are nasty, but one is nasty to someone
else, the other is nasty to you.  That's what makes moral dilemnas all the
more interesting to run.  Inescapable traps are one thing, they're not usually
moral dilemnas though.

What I mean by building a way out is cheating is that, if you put such a
dilemna into the plot, and you make a third option that is less nasty then the
original two, then its not a moral dilemna anymore, and it fails to bring an
emotional response.  The way out has to be built in intrinsically.  The party
does the nasty thing, and survives to live another day, their morality
comprised.  The party doesn't do the nasty thing, and somehow they are either
able to fight their way out and become fugitives, or are somehow, instead
imprisoned in an escapable way.  If this is what was meant by the original
post, I apologize.

An example would be:  The PCs are hired as mercenary advisors to help clear a
world of hostiles.  The hostiles turn out to be a lower tech minor race that
happens to stand in the way of a colonization project, and further happen to
build sprawling monasteries in the areas of rich lanthanum deposits.  Once
they get to the world, and find out the truth, the PCs could either do their
job, and help quell the 'hostiles' with all kinds of high tech goodies, and
then pull out when the transports come...  and live with it on their
conscience, or side with the hostiles and advise them in their raids, staying
with them until they die, lose, or can somehow eventually arrange off world
transport.  There could be a third option, hopping off world before they have
to do either.

Semo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #141
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 142



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Warships
Re: 3D sectors
RE: Wealthy Traveller Income
Human Race Homeworlds
RE: Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying La nguage)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
RE: What CE means to me
Re: Annoying Language
Re: Traveller 4.1 -- "Real Soon Now" = Vapourware?
Re: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)
RE: Null development in key areas
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Flat Campaigns
Pilgrimages in Traveller...
Re: Traveller Minor Race Generation
Re: Rome and the Imperium
Re: Marine Bashing
Re: GURPS Traveller
RE: Military Chaplans?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:55:40 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Warships

>Greetings, Gentlefolk, my gaming group was having a discussion
>(read argument) concerning the various types of warship that we
>could reasonable expect to encounter in the traveller universe.
>We regularly discuss the various topics on this list. Here is the list
>that our discussion generated. Please give me any feedback that
>you might wish.
Ok.

>Super Monitor
>Monitor

I think Imperial doctrine is to put production into jump capable warships
in the theory that 5 mobile (jump capable) BBs are better than 10 immobile
ones.  I can see an occasional exception to this (Is the "base" at a Depot
a Monitor?).

[snip the list]

Nice list, missing;

Q-Ship (Disguised merchant)
Tanker
Resupply Ship

Azhanti High Lightning class Frontier Cruiser was originally (or at some
point, the memory fails) designated as a "Fleet Intruder" which meaning is
not particularly clear, but seems to be a heavily armed fast vessel.

I always thouth the AHL design would make a great commerce raider; able to
jump behind enemy lines, raise hell, and get out before major forces could
be brought to bear.  Kind of the Kneisnau and Sharnhorst of its time.

If you are modelling on WWII tactics (which many seem to be doing);

Minesweeper
Minelayer

This is very debatable; Mines are layed (lain?) only in places which need
to be denied to the enemy.  Space is so big, its quite debatable whether
minefields can be placed effectively at all.

You have "Scout/Courier" but Fighting Ships (CT) had a "Fleet Courier" that
should be included.

Personally, I might add a "Scout Cruiser" used for reconnoitering in
'force'.  It would have the surface area for a truly good-sized passive
array and perhaps a few fighter sized recon boats.  It would also have
serious ECM and ECCM suites.

I would also deemphasize the role of fighters (unlike many other posters to
this thread).  Fighters under the T4 combat rules (and under TNE, and MT)
are so fragile that they are attrited very quickly in combat.  I expect
that the larger vessels are more valuable in a credit/firepower analysis
and in terms of whats left after the battle is over.

Fighters (gunboats) would be useful against raiders and pirates (where the
volume of fire is not so intense), so the escort role is significant, and
fighters would be good in the ground support/COACC role, which means big
carriers exist, but are not used vs. other ships, but against ground and
air targets.  Fighters are also valuable as sensor platforms.  Does anyone
besides me believe in "towed" passive arrays?

Remember that most of the vessels belonging to the Navy you will encounter
will be non-combatants; resupply, tanker, yard auxiliaries on debris
patrol, etc.  These ships are armed (all ships in Traveller seem to be
armed) but probably not armored or prepared for real combat.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:57:45 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

At 15:09 1998-02-11, Stephan wrote (about 3D sectors):
>Has anyone any experience with this kind of sector mapping? The
>calculations aren't too difficult, but I am interested in whether
>it is possible to bring a 3D isometric shape to paper in printable
>(and more important, readable) form.

Well, probably the easiest way to do this (but not very easy to read
afterwards) is to simply flatten the map, and put a digit indicating height
from the base plane next to each system. This causes a number of problems
however, since stars can be placed on top of each other.

I think a better way to do it would be to print the base plane from a
perspective, and indicate height of the systems with lines. This would look
like a piece of the roof, with systems hanging in pieces of string from the
roof. You would probably want to print the exact coordinates next to each
system.

>Yes, Ok, I _was_ lurking. Go and sue me ;-))

Well, this is another job for the sue-Imperium-Games part of the list :-)


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:55:48 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Wealthy Traveller Income

Cygnus:
> I have a party member who is running a wealthy traveller for a PC.  She rolled 
> to fully own a far trader.  Anyone have ideas as to how she could lease out 
> the ship so that she still could have money coming in, but not the involvement 
> of running a ship???  I don't have really any clues as to how to generate
> monthly income for this type of situation.

Sounds like you may be generating some severe headaches for the PC, not a
bad thing, and for yourself, not a good thing.  Most investors in such a
proprosal do not expect monthly returns anyway...  If monthly income is the
desired return format for this portfolio, consider leasing the ship to a
major freight line as part of their fleet, or an individual/small company
willing to lease it for strictly milk runs along a designated route (limits
your profitability unless you develop consistent, volume customers).

Unless the PC wants to hire a person/firm to manage the ship individually or
lease it out, the best thing to do in the long run would be to sell it.  If
it's not a desired possession, I wonder how it came to be owned by that PC
(besides the roll on the table said so)...

Another option is to revamp it into a luxury ship (we're supposed to be
wealthy after all).

Let me know how you work it into the story...


- - Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:03:35 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Human Race Homeworlds

I am compiling a list of human races the majors, of course, plus some minors)
and I want to show their homeworlds as well. Any information that someone can
point to would be helpful. Or suggestions for additions.


Marc Miller



World	Race	UWP		
Terra	Solomani			
Vland	Vilani			
Zhdant	Zhodani			
Sylea	Sylean			
	Azhanti			
	Fiorin			
	Geonee			
	Acheron			
	Suerrat 			
	Illurian			
	Luriani			

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:59:36 -0600
From: "Schmidt AA (Anthony) at MSXSSC" <AS186753@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: Re: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying La nguage)

> Well... seeing how i'm only paying 9.95 a month for my unlimited access
> (including IRC, Netscape, Microsloth IE, and pretty much everything else)
> through a tcp/ip connection to aol, i don't think that applies to me, dumb
> ass.  lol  And in case you couldn't read, my screen name is TravelrTNE.
> If u
> want to continue this, please email me directly.  We've had
> flame/counterflame
> now...  let's not burden the rest of the list, shall we?
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
	Well that was not a very productive message Gary.   It is better to
remain silent and be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove
all doubt.  You are one of those people who should remain silent.

	Enough said.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------------------------------------
Anthony E. Schmidt	
aeschmidt@shellus.com

"It is like a finger pointing at the moon, don't concentrate on the finger,
or you will miss all of the heavenly glory"
				            -Bruce Lee-
	
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:56:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

deadeye@ebicom.net writes:

>> I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.

   It should be pointed out that the countries of Western Europe taught
school on how to be a running dog Imperialist before there was even a US
(back them it was known by its former name, Mercantilism.  If the US has had
any success in that regard, it is because we stand on the shoulders of those
who came before us.

>Given time and creative minds TNE will become way cool, just like
>Harolds CoE stuff in the Trav Chronicle.

   Thanks for the plug.  I wrote CoE *specifically* with the idea of
creating something that wasn't "Americans in space" or anyone else in
particular.  

>I just hated the death of the universe I loved.

   So did I, but as they say, when your lemon gets crushed, don't pout, make
lemonade.

>To quote Charlton Heston:
>
>"You maniacs, you blew it up!"

   Or as I have said in the past: ...and God smote the evil doers and their
brethern and great numbers of their neighbors in righteous indignity because
they had took what he had given them for granted.  And there was great
lamenting and moaning and gnashing of teeth, and God said "those of you who
survive shall build a great civilization, one greater than that which came
before."  Thus the survivors began the task that God set out before them,
praising Him who gave them life.  And they were fruitful and multiplied and
smote God's enemies as they created their new land.  And God smiled upon
them and their descendents and they indeed built a great civilization...

   It's biblical (Old Testament) stuff man, and after all Chuck has played
Moses *and* God.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:57:30 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

mmmmmm.... flame bait... looks tasty.
 
> ANOTHER THING.
> 
> _milieu_ -- SINGULAR!!!!!
> _milieux_ -- PLURAL!!!!!

That's one of my pet peeves too.

I also hate it when _die_ , and _dice_  are misused.

> AIN'T WESTERN CIVILIZATION JUST FREAKIN' GREAT?????

<various mini-oreo bits nasally expelled. Ouch. that hurts>

YA!!!! WE RULE!!!!!

> ME!!!!!
> KENJI@ACCESSONE.COM!!!!!!

Now, you're trying too hard.
You need to be more subtle.
<big grin>

Glenn Hoppe
"The dice is cast" -- J. Caesar

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:07:06 -0600
From: "Schmidt AA (Anthony) at MSXSSC" <AS186753@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: What CE means to me

> Christians have dominated the world.  Like it or not.  I don't think you
> do. :
> )
> 
	Last time I checked we were well outnumbered.  A billion screaming
chinamen anyone?


> Oh boy... you are really stupid. lol 
> 
> I'm snipping the rest... 
> 
> 
	and you crawl back under the rock u came out of.  Preferably u could
go to
> that black one all the way in Mecca, assuming you've actually completed
> your
> pilgramage and gone there at all.(that's one of the Five Pillars, no?)
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
	I know how hard you are trying to be a wannabe nazi, but this has
nothing remotely to do with Traveller, and honestly is just making you look
totally ignorant.

	Please feel free to post any relative game information you may have,
then more intelligent people can flame that in turn.

	Tony

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:18:41 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

At 18:32 1998-02-10 EST, Gary wrote:
>It started as decidedly anti-christians.  Its caught on because it's not
>"nice" to all those poooooor people who fell to European conquest and forced
>conversion. 

The way I understand you, you seem ironic in this statement. Please tell me
I have misunderstood you. I have never (and I am pretty sure I never will)
sympathise with what happened during the crusade and colonization eras.

I also wish to say that I am not against religion in any way. I am not
myself religious, but I have friends who are (both Christian and
otherwise). One of the worst things you can do to a person (besides
violence of all kinds) is to force a system of belief on someone who does
not want it. I choose not to be religious of my own, free will. Many people
choose to believe of _their_ own free will. I have nothing to do with what
they choose.

>>So do you have to work at being this obnoxious or does it come naturally
>>to you?  I can ignore the jingoistic militarism you recently spouted, but
>
>How about you answer that question?  

Please ... no religious flames.

>>the above post *really* annoys me.  You are awfully damn dismissive of
>>anyone who does not agree with you.  Most of the planet "does not not want
>>to acknowledge Christ" ie they are not Christians, live with it.
>
>  Now now now... we seem awfully defensive, don't we?  "Most" of the planet
>might not acknowledge my Lord Jesus, but the vast majority of the western
>world does.  YOU live with it.  

That surely depends on what you mean with "western world". A clear minority
(well under 20%, I am pretty sure it's lower than 10% as well) are
Christians where I live (in Sweden). The country is nominally Christian,
but that does not change the beliefs of the people here. True, marriages
and such are mostly conducted in Christian churches.

>Noone denies there was technical progress after the fall of Rome.  But it was
>a much more illiterate and savage time than the Pax Romana enjoyed for so
>long.  Much of Roman culture and civilization was lost and Rome *was* the
>"world."

Yes, at least for the people over in western Europe. Byzantium was pretty
much isolated, and was more a part of the Arabic part of the world than
anything else.

Rome truly brought knowledge and civilization to many people, but they did
it by force. Many things got better, but many things also got worse (from
the conquered people's point of view).


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:48:00 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller 4.1 -- "Real Soon Now" = Vapourware?

>On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:23:26 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>>Subject: Traveller 4.1 Hardcover
[snip]
>>It looks as if IG's shipping policies are improving.  They sent me my
>>uncashed six month old check back & they are letting me know the product
>>will be delayed.
>
>Maybe they got so many threats of legal action they were *forced* to return
>money/cheques?
>
>As for their policies improving, well, there is the alternative explanation --
>this is a way of saying "Don't hold your breath, this is unlikely to ever
>appear" for (pick one) --
[snip]

(the following is a special delivery to Phil MacGregor and should be
considered parody, sacasm, and in good fun).

"Federal Government Tells us 'Don't Pay Your Taxes'!

The Federal government today announced that all taxes are not to be paid
due to a few trillion found between the couch cusions.

One citizen, Phillip MacGregor, was skeptical, "Maybe they got so many
threats of bombing federal buildings they *had* to refuse our money." he is
quoted as saying.

"This isn't policies improving, maybe this is their way of saying that they
won't be putting out our fires or policing our streets anymore.  I just
don't trust them."  He said.

When it was pointed out that Federal Taxes is exactly what Philip had been
complaining about all these years he was unmoved. "Just because I said that
was what I want doesn't mean I'm not going to complain when I get it."

(end special delivery)

Perhaps, Philip, instead of putting forth unfounded rumors you would
respond to some of Marc Miller's solicitations for suggestions as he feeds
us T4.1 piece by piece for our commentary and revision.  Not that you'll be
happy if he writes it exactly to your instructions either.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:39:17 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)

>> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

Mega-Traveller with some house rules

> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

Judges Guild's Ley Sector or Classic Traveller.

>c) Currently playing?

A Babylon 5/Aliens fusion.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:21:07 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

>
>If I had to choose an army to be in based on casualty rates I think 
>I'd go with the WWII German Army, as they lost rather less men than 
>those they faced, under some pretty bad odds.
>

I guess they didn't face too many Marines, then...  :-)

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:34:15 -0600
From: "Schmidt AA (Anthony) at MSXSSC" <AS186753@shellus.com>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

> At 04:11 PM 10/02/98 -0600, Tony wrote:
> >	The theory that marines just charge the hill and allow their bodies
> >to pile up is totally false.  If you look at historical references to
> most
> >major battles you will find that the ratio of marines lost is less than
> that
> >of the army, or the enemy.  They have been known on several historical
> >occasions to hold against far superior forces, with just a handful of
> >marines.  If I were going into battle, I would much rather go in with the
> >longer, superior training of a marine, than that of their other military
> >colleagues.  Marines are generally well trained and disciplined troops,
> >though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally
> controlled
> >recklessness.
> 
> If I had to choose an army to be in based on casualty rates I think I'd go
> with the WWII German Army, as they lost rather less men than those they
> faced, under some pretty bad odds.
> 
> 
> -- Rupert Boleyn
> 
	I can agree with that, just ask the British in Northern Africa what
the Germans did.  The Germans were way outgunned, and outmanned, not to
mention being forsaken by their Leader, and still managed to hold on in one
the the greatest, yet often overlooked battles in WWII.  By the time the
Germans finally fell, the British losses were astronomical, not necessarily
a victory if you ask me.

	Tony

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:34:43 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Flat Campaigns

At 01:48 1998-02-11 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>My point is that *no* 2-d representation works all that well. The
>closest is the paired XY/XZ maps like Battlefleet Mars used for combat.
>But even they have their problems. 
>
>So until we have a cheap, 3d display, we'll have to live with 2-D maps.

I have an idea.

Why not use a piece of your roof? Attach pieces of string to it. At the
other end of the string, attach a small ball of some kind of material
(perhaps with a number on it, for data lookup). These balls could be
coloured according to alliance etc.

This idea would probably not work for campaign played in large regions of
space, but it would work for smaller campaigns.

What do you think ?


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:02:58 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: Pilgrimages in Traveller...

Please note that this is only intended as a springboard for discussions of
Traveller-related issues.

AolerTNE:
[snip]
> And you crawl back under the rock u came out of.  Preferably u could go
> to
> that black one all the way in Mecca, assuming you've actually completed
> your
> pilgramage and gone there at all.(that's one of the Five Pillars, no?)

Very wise of you to note.  Yes, it is.  It's called hajj.  No, I haven't.
Your point?  The other four are: sawm, zakat, shahada, and the Day of
Judgement (not necessarily in that order).  See ya' then.


ObTrav: what holy places have y'all established in your campaigns for
various religions (besides jumpspace for the Brethren)?  There are many more
details that are involved in pilgramaging from one world to another than
surface travel...  I noticed that M:0 had some adventure seeds that included
carrying pilgrims as passengers.  Have any of y'all used these?  Have any
characters felt the need to make some kind of pilgrimage (the eternal quest
for battle dress doesn't count).

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

"Surely truth leads to virtue, and virtue leads to paradise." -Bukhari
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:36:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Minor Race Generation

CardSharks@aol.com wrote: 

>I have a set of four pages or so of charts just completed for Minor Race
>Generation. The charts talk you through creating a character generation card
>which has the details of Characteristics, body structure, aging, etc for a
>minor race (which may turn out to be human, or non human).
>Although the charts are dice driven, races can also be designed through
>choice.
>
>The file is a zipped Word For Windows95 set. I can email to anyone who
>requests it 

Is there any chance some kind soul could email me an RTF version of this
file (my computer doesn't have Word). 

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:35:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

One point - Yeah the Jews supported Augustus (because he promised not to
interfere with Judaism), but the REASON for the Judean rebellions was the
infuriating (to the Jews) practise of demanding that all loyal citizens
acknowledge and worship the later Emperors as divine. This sparked the Judean
revolts and led to the destruction of the 2nd. Temple in 79CE, and the
Diaspora (after Bar Kochba's revolt). So much for Roman religious tolerence,
but then again even National Geographic omitted this little fact.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:34:14 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Marine Bashing

At 10:35 PM 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> I refuse to even rise to the bait (Marines just don't), but just to let you
>> know we're out here...
>> 
>
>Marines are locked on.  I just can't stand it when they beat up my crew
>chiefs cause they are bored.

To quote a former Sergeant of mine:

"If you've got that much energy to burn, follow me, I'll work it off ya.."
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:16:28 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 06:03 PM 2/10/98 EST, you wrote:
><snip>
>>That is the best description of TNE I've seen, and the reason I loathed
>>it.  The whole make the backward worlds "safe for democracy & capitalism"
>>while also looting their tech was amazingly morally repellent.  I had
>>about as much impetus to play in that setting as I would a game of the
>>heroic German SS in WWII, *yuck!*

>     What a load of horse crap!  Stick to the facts and not your narrow
>viewpoint.
>     The goal wasn't to loot, it was to take it before the techno/xeno-phobic
>natives destroyed it and to restore the "capitalism" (read: trade, commerce
>and a fragment of interstellar society) lacking the moral repugnance and
>arrogance of the late and lamented Last Imperium. 

"We had to destroy the village to save it."

Did anyone ever ask these people if they wanted to be saved?  Seems to me
that stripping a world of it's leadership, useful artifacts, and hauling
away what little they have for auction isn't very nice.

>>I was sad to see Traveller become a game of US imperialism in space.

>Nice commentary, Comrade...Has the Party lost control of its computers or
>what? 

Go away until you can control yourself.  Just today you have insulted
people based on their religion and percieved political stance.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:52:32 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Military Chaplans?

At 12:30 PM 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas:
>[spurious assumptions snipped]
>
>> Depends.  IMTU, the closest thing to an Imperial religion is a faith that
>> worships stars as sentient, powerful beings.  So chaplains would probably
>> be drawn from a moderate branch of that religion.  Then of course, you
>have
>> minority religions, which can cause headaches.
>
>Another canon-buster there?  Who was it the worshipped the Darrian-spawned
>star triggers?  Heh.

Actually, the Church of the Stellar Divinity is canon (Shows up in Double
Adventure 6)

>> I question your comment about the military justifying their actions on a
>> religious basis.  At least in the US Army, we did what we did because we
>> had volunteered, and were subject to orders.  American troops have
>> fine-tuned BS detectors, and appeals to a higher moral level will send the
>> needle of the scale.

>Heh.  Having lots of friends in the "big four" US military services and
>other quasi-military services (I consider local/state police, Border, DEA,
>FBI, et al part of a similar mindset), I would disagree.  It's not a BS
>detector: it's healthy skepticism of the motives of those giving them the
>orders.  If Captain Woody sez, "Kill a commie for Jesus," the embittered
>Army "dude" is unlikely to be moved.  If the local pastor at home says that
>God loves those that volunteer, and you do...

I followed orders because I had sworn to obey the orders of officers, and
the Non-Commissioned Offciers placed over me.  Nobody bothered to explain
*why* we had an alert, just get out of the rack and MOVE!

>My favorite jarhead just died of so-called "leukemia" after he came back
>from Saudi last year, and I won't comment on how peoples beliefs change
>under such circumstances, but you can imagine.  Agnostics are, until the
>bullets start flying over your "fighting position."

Now that's just interesting.  I am best described as an agnostic.  I have
been shot at, and have lived with Hodgkin's Disease for two and a half
years.  I feel no need to cozy up to an established religion for comfort.
When I die, if I am judged, the Universe will have to accept me for what I
was and did.

>We all respond to the symbols that we are conditioned to revere, and that we
>condition ourselves to revere.  The most heroic acts in history were just
>such symbolically motivated behavior.  Your symbols may not be the cross or
>the crescent and scimitar, but instead the nebulous "freedom and justice for
>all."  Honestly, I don't think that the pay or training is good enough for
>someone to volunteer without having a strong religious belief in something,
>be it red, white, and blue, or black and white, or green and gold.

My father was a British subject, my mother very anti-military, and we
reinvented non-religious.  Yet I enlisted the moment I could get them to
sign the paperwork.  Why?  Can you name another job that lets you fire
machine-guns, travel around the world, and get laid a lot?

<snip>

>It doesn't prove anything...  Some "religions" require nothing of their
>unconscious adherents than simply living however they choose.  You're not a
>scientologist are you?  ;-)

No.  I read Zen.

>What made the Afghani Mujahideen more terrifying to the Soviets: their
>training and equipment or the fact that had attended their own funerals and
>believed that if they died fighting the would enter into Paradise?  BTW, in
>case you're unfamiliar with the Afghani war, the natives didn't have
>training or equipment. 

I'm very familar with the "Russian Vietnam."   Are YOU aware that the
mujahideen were being slaughterd without respite until the CIA supplied
FIM-92 Stingers to the Afghanis at taught them how to use them?  Without
air support, the Soviets only dared the mountains in Battalion-sized
armored formations, which the fighters saw coming for miles.

>What made the Crusades so much fun, for both sides?

Considering that was a *relgious* war, it's a slightly different situation.
 But for every knoght of Christendom, there were a dozen mercenaries and
levies, fightening for gold or their liege.

>The history of religion and warfare are inseparable, more so in the East and
>Mid-East than in our "dispassionate" West (but that's only in the last
>couple of decades).  The Revolution was fought for God and country, as were
>the "Big Two," Korea, and for some, Vietnam, just to mention those important
>to the US.

I must say, I find your ideas interesting, if a bit odd.  Please explain
what religious motives were behind the Axis in WWII?

>> >So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle
>them?
>> 
>> The same way that soldiers do.  Ignore them.
>
>You can, if you want.  But there wouldn't be military chaplains if everyone
>did.

Based on my service in the United States Army, most soldiers ignore the
entire Chaplain Corps.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #142
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 143



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.  (was RE: What CE means)
Re: Military roleplaying
Active Traveller Campaigns?
Re: Wealthy Traveller income
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #129
Government types
Shrieker population
CE - My first and only word
Red Zones
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: Military Chaplans?
Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)
Flat 3D Campaigns
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Military Chaplans?
[Private]  Thanks.  RE: mea culpa
Re: US Marines
Re: Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: Rome and the Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:07:28 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.  (was RE: What CE means)

At 11:12 PM 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:

>ObTrav: another perennial thread, sort of, but how many people (besides me)
>inflict snack duty on players?  Do you demand that they bring something
>Travelleresque to the table?  (No, even though this GM can be bribed with
>white fudge covered Oreos, they are NOT Travelleresque.)

It's accepted etiquette in my circles to feed the GM.  More often than not,
this consists of a hefty contribution to the pizzia fund, and bringing a
six-pack of the GM's favorite soft drink.

- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the  |
|  stupidity of man."  -Gen. George S. Patton |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:59:05 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

At 07:46 PM 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>> >My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
>>> >Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or
>you
>>> >are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, most
>MT
>>> >campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.

>---------> Yeah, it's so limiting that must be why you never see charcters
>in the military portrayed in science fiction literature or movies...
>or even on TV, where you'd think you might find shows about the military
>crew of a military ship running into all sorts of weird things on a weekly
>basis...

Note:  I said "during wartime."

Endless sessions of "Captain, join up with Task Force 473475, and engage
the enemy at Gram.  Or "Major, your company will lead the drop."

People in command don't get out much.  Playing a combat peon, on the other
hand, means taking orders from everybody!

I've considered doing a "troupe" style game using the Coronation, with
everyone having several characters in different departments and ranks.


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 1998 14:27 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaigns?

To all Travellers:

Please check Chris Griffen's "Active Traveller Campaigns" list
and e-mail me additions, deletions, and changes to make to the
list.  It will be moving shortly, and I figure it's time to
update it.

Rob
eaglesto@nortel.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:48:46 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wealthy Traveller income

I have a better idea. Sell the ship and invest the funds in an annuity.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:28:33 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #129

At 11:18 AM 2/10/98 +0000, you wrote:

>    To D. Berry
>       Any perticular python scetch you quoted before shooting,  the "dead
>Parrot Scetch" perhaps

"How not to be seen."

"Ah, Lt. Foster has moved, and has failed not to be seen."

*BLAM*
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:03:04 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Government types

     Greetings fellow TMLer's,

     I am wondering if anyone could provide info on just what exactly the
various government types in Trav are?  I mean, just what is a fuedal
technocracy?  I guess I am actually looking for any real world examples of the
various types listed in the game, and some descriptions.  After all, the way I
see the US govt (for example), it could be a Representitive Democracy, a Civil
Service Bureaucracy, an Impersonal Bureaucracy, or a Self-Perpetuating
Oligarchy!  Please help me out...I don't really need very detailed
descriptions, just something so I can make them work for my players.

Thanks in advance,
Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 1998 13:13 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Shrieker population

Now, after writing an unlikely history of the Chamaxi/Shriekers,
I am trying to determine population figures for Safari World.

A Shrieker couple will usually have 2-4 offspring who survive 
(of 10-20 eggs) to adulthood, and are hatched over a period of 
10 to 20 years.  Adults live about 44 years, after which 92% die.

The remaining ones, called elders, live on for about 200 more
years, after which they die abruptly.

Now what kind of population distribution do we have here?
If we had a city of these beasties, how many of each would
live there?

I ran a sample script and came up with these percentages:

Youths		Adults		Elders
982		2400		93
1071		3000		111
1879		4004		154
2175		4200		157
4239		7506		265
4129		10300		387
4650		10871		370

28%		69%		3%
26%		71%		3%
31%		67%		2%
33%		65%		2%
35%		62%		2%
27%		69%		2.5%
29%		68%		2%
- ------------------------------------
29%		67%		2%

So the distribution will be approximately

Youth: 30%
Adult: 67%
Elder:  3%

Which sounds pretty reasonable.

With a city of around 16,000:
	4800 will be youths,   age 1-8 standard years
	10,720 will be adults, age 9-44 standard years
	480 will be elders,    age 45-245 standard years


Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:55:00 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: CE - My first and only word

At the risk of wasting any more time on this flame ridden topic, I did a
search for "Common Era" at Mirriam Websters, on the hunch that this term
has been in use far longer than most people think.

According to Websters, Common Era came into usage circa 1889.

I am shocked to see flames rise so high over such an inane topic.

It is my humble opinion that the term began being used by academics, not
to lessen the impact of Jesus, nor to be "politically correct" (another
loaded phrase I personally dislike) but to:

(1) Use objective, dispassionate terms in writing histories; to distance
the writer's work from his or her personal beliefs.

(2) Be more precise about the meaning of the dating system, since the
actual date of birth of Jesus is in doubt. Most estimates place it at 4
BCE, some as early as 20 BCE, iirc.

Not having a decent etymological reference at hand (or on the net), the
above is pure speculation.


In closing, I ask that those with sensitivities or insecurities about
their choice of religious, political or military devotion (or lack
thereof) would take their petty flame-wars to a more appropriate forum.

Thanks for listening,
Glenn Hoppe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:45:48 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: Red Zones

AolerTNE:
[I asked that this *become* a private flamewar, but I suppose you'd rather
keep it public.]

[snip]
>    Well... there's alot more of us than there are bombplanting terrorist
> towelheads.  (Apologies to the Moslems whom I respect). I don't believe

Hmm.  Check your facts.  How many Christians v. Muslisms are there?

ObTrav: how many Vegans are there?

> many
> of the scum who who proclaim Allah Akbar are real Moslems.  U want a
> religious

Hey!  We agree about something.  No less true of those who proclaim Jesus
(p.b.u.h.) is lord.

> debate, u're welcome to email me privately.

I did.  Guess you'd rather embarrass yourself.

> The Founding Fathers had social controls in place that didn't require
> them to
> legislate morality.  If they knew what would've happened, I believe they
> might
> well have.

Which were those social controls?  I seem to recall something about the Bill
of Rights.  Were those controls?  Glad we have that second one, my personal
favorite.  Otherwise only marines would have the guns.

FWIW, all of my marine buddies that *came back* from the Gulf were appalled
at the way the so-called Iraqi government treated its troops.  They also
said that they wouldn't've held out as long under the same conditions,
either.

ObTrav: I vaguely remember the psionic beasties that almost escaped and took
over human space (wish I could remember the name from Aliens Archive, left
it at home).  Are there other canon instances of things that escaped from
and swarmed dangerously out of Red Zones?

[snip]
> want to continue this, please email me directly.  We've had
> flame/counterflame
> now...  let's not burden the rest of the list, shall we?

You had your chance...  My address is still in the .sig.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

Yea, though I post to the Traveller Mailing List, I will fear no egos.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:04:11 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

Glenn Grant wrote:

> Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> said,
>
> >In the wild, Rorans are cave dwellers who travel in packs ranging in
>
> In Vilani, the plural would of course be 'Rorani', no?
>

Yup. I'll change that.

> About here you need more description of its morphology; how big is it?

Good point. I'll expand on it. If only I had the ability to draw, I could
insert a picture.

> >and feet gradually disappear and are replaced by small wings. The armor
> >shell on its back softens and becomes considerably more pliable, to
> >enable the motions required for flight.
>
> Sounds a bit like a cockroach or beetle: the shell probably opens to
> release the wings, and closes to shields the wings when the Roran is
> underground, or fighting.
>

That's not what I had originally pictured. However, I like this idea better!
I'll changeit.

> >First, Rorans use their solid excrement as territorial markers. As the
> >old feces dry up, new ones are used to replace them. The sense of smell
> >of most humans is sorely tried by this trait.
>
> Lovely. Flying carnivorous dung beetles.
>

Wait until the players find out about what their watchdog is doing to their
spanking new yacht!

> I rather wonder if the spines _and_ shell aren't redundant? Spines _or_
> shell, I think: if you have one, you don't need the other.
>

Actually, the shell serves as a sort of rib cage, protecting internal organs.
The quills are purely to intimidate predators. They are redundant; I guess I
just like the mental picture.

> My image of the adult Roran is roughly similar to a clawed tortoise with a
> soft shell bisected down the middle. When it flies, its shell opens like
> the gullwing doors on a DeLorean, releasing the batlike wings, about 2m in
> span(?). The neck can extend quite a bit, to facilitate biting attacks, or
> retract under the shell for protection.
>

I like it. Hmmm, anyone out here on the TML willing to draw it?

> I think the Roran would have to eat a _lot_, if it's going to have the
> energy to fly. Your PC may need to blow his whole paycheque on huge sacks
> of RoranChow...
>

Excellent idea! For the Roran to be a popular sentry animal throughout the
Imperium,it can't be hard to feed. That is, it must be able to digest commonly
found food. I'm thinking of having the Roran refuse to eat dead food, though.
It likes its meat live and squealing!

Thanks for the feedback!

- --
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 19:21 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

In-Reply-To: <032e01bd3553$e6084020$a711fed0@cybrnaut>

Richard,

> >So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle
> them?
>  
> I would take a clue from Starship Troopers (the novel) and make them just
> like any other military character.  A marine chaplain would be trained as a
> marine, a navy chaplain as a sailor, etc.  "In the infantry everybody
> drops."

The problem is, most (current, Terran) religions aren't terribly keen on 
killing people. I would treat chaplains like medics - basic military 
training, but not intended as a combatant.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:46:58 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)

Harold D. Hale wrote: 

>   That said, I think I can speak for everyone in wishing him a safe 
>journey as he suits up one more time and takes a ride on the Space 
>Shuttle.  I think he'll find that the ride has improved since the >last 
time he was in orbit.
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold

A long standing dream of mine has been to ride the shuttle, or more 
accurately, to eventually get into space...  Anyone share that dream?

Also, what would you pay (how much), in a world-wide lottery, for a 
chance at a seat as an observer/mission specialist on one of the Space 
Shuttles?  $50?  $100?



Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 1998 14:42 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Flat 3D Campaigns

The 3D map I created was just a projection onto paper, with a 10x10x10 
light-years cube.  The X and Y axes were on the 'floor' of the cube, 
and a line ran up from the X-Y position to a dot where the system was 
along the Z axis.  Next to the dot I included the actual Z height of 
the line.

A: (2, 3, 4)
B: (7, 1, 7)

y
\		B (7)
 \	A (4)	|
  \	|	|
   \	|	|
    \	|	|
     \  |	|
      \		|
       \	|
        \_________ x

(On paper, I actually drew X and Y at right angles, which still looked
fine and took up less space.  I think I angled the Z line slightly.)

It looks great, but you gotta have a table of pre-calculated distances,
which must include a good portion of surrounding cubes in case your
heroes decide to jump out of the cube.

Dist (L-Y)

	A	B
A	-	6
B	6	-

You could try 16x16x16 cubes too, but let's not get too carried away.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:24:21 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

> Has anyone any experience with this kind of sector mapping? The
> calculations aren't too difficult, but I am interested in whether
> it is possible to bring a 3D isometric shape to paper in printable
> (and more important, readable) form.
> 
> That question especially goes to deadeye (if I got it right, you are
> working on something similar, too)
> 
> Yes, Ok, I _was_ lurking. Go and sue me ;-))
> 
> Ciao,
> Stephan


Yeah, I'm doing 3D pencil cubes right now, but the problem is that with
no rotation some systems mask others.  There is also no easy way to
check distances.

A nice nav computer program will solve all of this, but my intent had
simply been to build the cube in lightwave and turn it into a gif
animation rotating. 

The map would include stars, major trade routes, bases and xyz coords.

As for where I am now, I just draw an isometric cube, put little circles
in and ring them with star systems.  Still primitive and it is unweildy
to try to visualize surrounding sectors.  

I also state this doesn't invalidate the Trav Imperium at all.  It just
takes place above the mapped Imperium in the mysterious and unproven
third dimension.

More later.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 19:21 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

In-Reply-To: <199802090141.BAA15205@rock103.genie.net>

> > Also, military characters may be created as chaplains.
>     ::CLICK::  Hey, where ARE the military Chaplins in Traveller?  I mean come
> on I seriously doubt every last living sentient in the Traveller Universe is an
> Athiest. ;) And Militaries are notorious for supporting/providing Religious
> support and justification for the actions they take.
>  
>     Now I'm not suggesting that we create pan-Imperium religions but I don't
> think the various Militaries of the Imperium would ignore them either.  They're
> just too useful as regards the "intangables" that motivate and drive soldiers.
> So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle them?

They do say there are no atheists in foxholes, so yeah, I think they probably 
will still exist in some form.

However, I don't believe there could be any official Imperial religion, and the 
3I is so big, and includes so many cultures - even averaging only 1 major 
religion per world, that's 11,000 different religions, and each of those could 
worship several gods! - that I don't think it'll be more than a Generic Religios 
Coordinator.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:13:54 -0600
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@shellus.com>
Subject: [Private]  Thanks.  RE: mea culpa

Gary:

I accept your apology and offer my own.  I think we probably inflicted more
damage on the opinion of the average Traveller between us than anyone else
to date (well, maybe the great rock debate and the pirateers did more ;-).
Perhaps in the height of our personal flamewar we lost sight of our own
experiences and better intentions.  These topics (usually ignored by
publishers and game designers for EXACTLY this reason) are difficult to
explore without engendering massive debate, and sometimes warfare.

I would hope that all the cultures of the world could avoid that last in the
future, but I don't believe that in the end we shall.  :-(

> who will listen. I sentence myself to 1001 lashings (or emails from
> David
> Reed, take your pick).

Was I really that nasty?  Surely only 50 lashes...  I'd hardly sentence
myself (for my misbehavior) or you to a fate worse than that for adultery.

>   I'm really not as arrogant (religiously or politically) as some of my
>   flames
> may indicate.  I believe in tolerance and not the torture and persecution

Moi aussi.  Interested in some comparative religious discussion?  I think we
may have a lot more in common than you think (I was raised in a rather
strict Christian faith), despite what our respective religious so-called
leaders might try to tell us.  I'm always intrigued by what other
(intelligent) folk believe.  Anyone of any stripe that cannot discuss these
things without rancor I have no time for, whether they agree with me or not.

>    Anyone who wants to further differentiate is welcome to engage me in
>    a
> religious debate.  

I'm listening.

>    Please excuse this completely non-Trav statement. I felt I needed to
> explain myself. 
> 
> Happy Travelling

Thanks.  You, too.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Reed          Shell Services International          713.245.2656
Infrastructure Technology Services                   dreed@shellus.com

"Surely truth leads to virtue, and virtue leads to paradise." -Bukhari
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:53:45 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: US Marines

Tony wrote:

>	The theory that marines just charge the hill and allow their bodies
>to pile up is totally false.  If you look at historical references to most
>major battles you will find that the ratio of marines lost is less than that
>of the army, or the enemy.  They have been known on several historical
>occasions to hold against far superior forces, with just a handful of

Battle of Beleaux Wood.  Hue City.  Chosin Resovoir (6 to 1 in Divisions when
the Army and UN forces decided to head for the hills....) as a sampler. : )

>marines.  If I were going into battle, I would much rather go in with the
>longer, superior training of a marine, than that of their other military

Me 2. : )  We toot our own horn alot.  We're always taught pride and honor and
our stature compared to the other Armed Forces.  That's the cause. We get our
humility as boots and quickly try to forget.

>colleagues.  Marines are generally well trained and disciplined troops,
>though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally controlled
>recklessness.

Well... I remember my DIs telling me "Work hard... play harder." I heard it in
MCT and in MOS school, too.  I hear it often...  Just start capitalizing those
Ms please. 
: )  

Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:53:56 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium

I'm interested... Sounds awesome.  Please... tell on.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:16:22 -0600
From: Chris Olson <Chris_Olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

Spinward Marches 1105
T4 w/KBv2.0

...and lots of references to previous works (TNE,MT,CT)

Chris Olson
Programmer, Nut

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:31:22 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

>However, I don't believe there could be any official Imperial 
>religion, and the 3I is so big, and includes so many cultures - even 
>averaging only 1 major religion per world, that's 11,000 different 
>religions, and each of those could worship several gods! - that I 
>don't think it'll be more than a Generic Religios Coordinator.

>Andrew M J Boulton                        

I tend to agree with you.  Real World, Marines don't have chaplains or 
medical staff in the Corps.  They are Navy personnel assigned with the 
Marines.  The chaplain assigned to your battalion may or may not be part 
of your faith group.  They are cross-trained (though some of the faith 
groups cannot work with other faith groups except to provide 
counsel/support, etc.) to understand as many of the faith groups as 
possible.

In the 3I, I could see a religious coordinator in the Imperial Naval 
forces, as these come from many different worlds.  However, for 
planetary forces, particularly army (and even the Imperial Army) (as 
most of a particular unit is from the same world) I think they would 
have chaplains for the major religious groups.

They are definately noncombatants.

Mr. Berry:  I know quite a few chaplains, both in the Army and the other 
services.  They have quite a ministry among the soldiers and other 
servicemen under their care.  I think it depends a lot on the chaplains 
that you have too, as I have know quite a few were only there for the 
"job" or the pay and could not have cared less about the spiritual 
wellbeing of their charges.

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:08:45 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

One of the reasons I like the IMPERIUM game, is that it shows the
difference between normal strategy and political strategy (in my mind
anyhow).  Where there is an obvious strategy or tactical course to follow
for a side in the war, it should be taken, but what happens when someone
with more authority, but less on the spot accumen, decides to take away
forces you need?  What happens when a minor setback in a war happens, and
the powers that be decide to sack the leader - replacing him with a lessor
ability officer?

  To answer the gent who stated that the 3I was really DUMB, the only thing
that I can state is that to an extent, you are correct in your assessment,
but also incorrect.  Historians have a bad habit of yelling "WHAT A DUMB
IDIOT" at a guy who makes his best assessment at the time with the
information and limitations that he has.  From what I can see of the
Imperial history regards to the Solomani question, it looks like there were
two major politcal factions working against each other - and the solomani
lost.  As a consequence, they went to war, and kind of both lost and won.
Meanwhile, at the opposite end of the imperium, the Zhodani started their
fifth frontier war, causing problems.
  In a way, from what I recall of my Roman history, the third Imperium is a
somewhat close analogy to Rome.  Expand out as far as you can go, leave no
enemies nearby, and then incorporate the conquored into your culture.
Problem is, the Imperium had not one "Persia" to contend with, but two.
Perhaps the biggest "error" in the Imperium, is that they allowed the
Villani to sway them to the point where the Solomani went to war.  Had they
been able to create a united front against the Zhodani, the third Imperium
might have been able to bring the full effect of it's economic and military
might against the Zhodani.
  Another strategy, that might well have been followed, was to make
diplomatic overtures to the barbarians, er excuse me, the Aslan to help
attack the Solomani with the understanding that when the Aslan and Third
Imperium joined together, that the Aslan would find themselves with full
priveledges within the Imperium as nobles and member worlds, permitting
them to retain all conquests against the Solomani.

  In short, there seems to have been a few "political" errors, that ended
up being strategic errors as well, but then again - wars don't happen just
because.  Wars are not usually fought just so that there might be fighting,
they are fought as a result of "policy" of nations.
  One reason I am drawn back to the Imperium background as a roleplaying
environment, is that it is so well detailed in a lot of areas.

    Hal

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #143
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 144



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #129
Re: Military roleplaying
Re: Warships
Re: Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium:What deadeye means about it all (Interesting!)
Re: CE
Re: Off Topic & CE/BCE
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Military roleplaying (fwd)
RE: Null development in key areas
Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: 3D sectors
Government Types in Traveller
Re: Traveller Minor Race Generation
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Shuttle Ride
Re: Annoying Language
RE: Null development in key areas
RE: Null development in key areas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 21:07 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #129

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980210111352.20032A-100000@psych>

David,

> To D. Berry
>        Any perticular python scetch you quoted before shooting,  the "dead
> Parrot Scetch" perhaps

Nah, gotta be "The Importance of Not Being Seen".
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:36:47 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

Greg Smith wrote:
> 
> >From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>

> Seems to me that a Strike mission would make for a couple of great
> adventures...  And so what if you get a term on planet...  you could
> skip adventuring there and move on...
> 
> Thoughts?  Anyone try this?
I was wondering if anyone had built a campaign, similar to what is
suggested here, around the first (or second) year of *training* for each
PC. I cannot think of a situation in which college aspirants would be
involved with a military situation but you people with mega imagination
will. 
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:46:25 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Warships

Hello Folks,
  A question was raised regarding the use of minefields...

  If perhaps the original purpose of mines have diminished perhaps the
psychological purpose could still remain...


Captain's log addendum:  "post jumpspace exit has worked well, and we are
now onroute to the gas giant to refuel.  High guard reports all clear..."

  Suddenly, battle alarms shriek as the sound of escaping atmosphere sounds
throughout the ship.  Drop doors slide in place as the atmoshpere
containment measures activate.  The Captain grimaced as he realizes that
some of his crew will have been caught in areas without vac suits, while
more are likely dead from the original attack.  A brief few seconds go by
as the ship attempts to attain battlestation mentality.  With out
prompting, the engineer at the engineering station on the bridge rang out.

"sir, we took a hit in the high starboard aft engineroom.  Sensor recording
indicate a close range hit by a laser mine."

Biting back a bitter curse, the captain realized that the enemy were
starting to use mines again.  "Alright, lets spread the word, let fleet com
know what happened and give the warning that there might be more out there.
 In the mean time, I want sensor ops on full battle alert.  Keep the ship
at alert status 3 with automatic alert status 1 should sensor's indicate
enemy ships.  In the meantime, I want an assessment of battle damage repair
times and causalties.  Lets get to work gentlemen shall we?"

  In short, placing orbit keeping mines around gas giants, in small enough
numbers that the mines are unusual encounters, may keep the enemy at
heightened states of alert.  It might also cause them to spend extra time
making sure that it is ok to enter into a refuelling orbit around gas
giants.  Also, I could easily see it where such mines are laid such that
they ignore ships of the line, and target smaller ships and/or freighters...

     Just a few thoughts...

    Hal

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:46:38 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying and 3D Imperium:What deadeye means about it all (Interesting!)

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
> 
> OK.
> 
> I've been skirting around this issue so here it goes.
> 
> I have been running and working on a military based campaign for
> MegaTraveller detailing Lucan's Vengeance Fleet and its excursion in
> 1118 into Dulinor's territory for the last two years.
> 
> I hated MT at first.  They trashed my beloved Imperium and my SM
> campaing would never be the same.  But after some time I got attracted
> to DGP's beautiful stuff.  Sure the rules weren't tight, but the
> grandeur of it got my attention.  And Reynolds/Vilardi/Caswell/Peter's
> art.  They put together good books and I loved them. I loved getting to
> know Norris, Dulinor and Strephon.  But it was hard to run anything in
> that environment.
> 
> Then one day when I was sitting alone and bored in Guam, sweltering from
> unbeareable heat and a broke airconditioner, I came up with an idea. Why
> not run a short campaign as a bunch of grunts in that wartime setting?
> Well, seeing as Guam is in the Marianas chain, (only 100 miles south of
> Tinian) I got a good taste of something Traveller lacked.
> 
> Military campaigns happen for a reason:geography.  A 2D Imperium didn't
> have what I wanted, which was a chokepoint where a decisive battle could
> be fought, or subtly maneuvered around. I needed 3D topology to see how
> and why things would happen; 2D did not work because it didn't allow for
> all the stellar junk, dustclouds debris and astronomy I wanted to put in
> so the PC's could maneuver in and around.  I also decided that contrary
> to popular Traveller I wanted an area not in clear space, but a region
> of stellar wreckage and birth to cast a blood red glow on all the war
> within.  I designed it in 3D and placed it right between Dulinor and
> Lucan, in a region of a real dustcloud(rift.)
> 
> I called it Naryanganjo Corridor, named after the red supergiant
> Naryanganj at its GalSouth mouth.  In this sector the 3 forces of Lucan,
> Dulinor and Strephon would meet.
> 
> It has since grown to be the most intricatley detailed, coherent sector
> ever done for (heretical) Traveller with artwork that is better than
> anything ever done for Traveller.  When I said I am detailing the
> Vengeance Fleet I meant it.
> 
> Being military I have a unique view on these things.  Imagine a short
> guidebook on how to command a military ship.  Now play the senior
> characters on it, ala Star Trek. Or deckapes.
> 
> Did I hear, "Either way the ship fundamentally depends on the NPC's,
> it's too big!"
> 
> True, but if roleplayed well that IS exciting. These NPCs are not spear
> carriers.  Done right they are the game.  Who cares if your PC has
> MCR2000?  It gets them nothing except more paper and graphite notes.
> Personal interaction is what make roleplaying truly fun and getting the
> NPC's to do right is a daunting and rewarding task.  Of course this
> takes a very good GM to run them all.  One session of mine typically has
> 20-40 well detailed and acted NPC's.  And I love those NPCs!
> 
> I intend to continue working on this setting in my spare time and
> publish it.  When it is(if ever) done, it will be the definitive on how
> to run a military campaign in Traveller.
> 
> Limited options in the mil?  Not quite.  But someone needs to tell you
> guys what can be done in the TravMil.  A lot of that is stories from us
> that has actually seen "the shit."  All those millions of little
> anecdotes that would make a game by themselves.  I want to compile them.
> Just having these materials detailed would be valuable for all Traveller
> players.
So' I'm interested already. Keep me posted. Privately if no one else is
interested.
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:50:29 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CE

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> You BASTARDS!!!!!!!  You pointy-headed woolly-eared gap-toothed
> sheep-fondling BASTARDS!!!!!
> 
> I toil over my keyboard for HOURS devising trolls for all my virtual
> friends and what do I get for it?  NADA.  ZIP.  ZILCH.  Hand-crafted barbs
> and hooks lying around unappreciated.  Not even a bite.  <sob>
> 
> But you UNGRATEFUL PERVERSE GITS go APESHIT over a DATING ABBREVIATIONS.
> 
> (Me, I get a bit agitated over some of my "dating abbreviations" too, in
> another sense, but that's hardly a fit topic for mixed company, even in a
> MATURE, INFORMED, FORUM FOR CRITICAL INQUIRY AND DISCUSSION like the TML,
> IS IT?????  IS IT????  OR DOES "C.E." ON TML ONLY STAND FOR "CRETINOUS
> EVACUATIONS"?)
> 
> Dang you all to the deepest pits of heck!  I MEAN IT!
> 
> Kenji Schwarz
> kenji@accessone.com

He's back !!!!!!!!! Gadzooks I wish I could say those things.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:16:20 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Off Topic & CE/BCE

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
> 
> How about that complete and total weirdness...
That's why someone invented the delete key.
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 21:12 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Moin Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm,

> I think a better way to do it would be to print the base plane from a
> perspective, and indicate height of the systems with lines. This would look
> like a piece of the roof, with systems hanging in pieces of string from the
> roof. You would probably want to print the exact coordinates next to each
> system.

	imho the best way to print 3D maps, is to print a map for any
	system. the map should look like the "Elite" navigation map,
	which was imho the best 3d visualisation I've seen in computer
	games yet.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 21:52 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying (fwd)

Moin Chris Miller,

> --------> I haven't been in the military, but I see it as full of all kinds
> of potential.

	this assumes traveller (no way to phone home) and a small group
	without direct command, e.g. a crew of a Gazelle after they
	spaced the officers, and became pirate ... ups wrong thread.

> ...and there's a whole lotta people play some game
> called "Mechwarrior" where you have a bunch of military types roaming around
> during a civil war.

	But BlechFarce is not a role playing game, but a table top conflict
	simulation. I also like cosims (e.g. BL in traveller) but I wont
	call a brilliant lances session a role playing game.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 22:07 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

Moin Rupert Boleyn,

> If I had to choose an army to be in based on casualty rates I think I'd go
> with the WWII German Army, as they lost rather less men than those they
> faced, under some pretty bad odds.

	I would rather prefer the "Scheizer Garde" of Vatikan, they
	did'nt lost a war since existance.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 22:13 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Odin = Hector?  AOL = Sux?  (was RE: Annoying Language)

Moin Reed DE,

> They even had the gaul (sorry, had to
> use that pun!) to leave the Brits on *OUR* islands!!! 

	ah you are a member of the "green party", a german joke :

	" when the romans conquered the islands they left all cripples
	in Ostfriesland (where I'm living) when they left the islands
	they left all those to drunk to climb the boat.

	since then the islanders are importing vinegar as they thing
	that wine should taste like this. "

	ok a more german joke : " Kohl is just an other Kraut "

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:21:02 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

Andrew Akins wrote:

> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

a) Classic Traveller with task system
b) no particular favorite but leaning towards TNE

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:02:50 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Rob Prior wrote:
> [snip] responding to 
> John Snead writes:
[snip]
> I agree that the published adventures were militaristic.  I just didn't
> use them for anything but setting.  And RC Marines make great bad-guy
> NPCs, cause you've got to use brains not firepower to defeat them (without
> taking huge friendly casualties).
> 
> Hmm.
> 
I think that is what was intended for most of the information put forth
from any of the traveller " era's ". At least that is how I use them.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:07:31 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
> 
> Marines are generally well trained and disciplined troops,
> > though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally controlled
> > recklessness.
> >
> >         Tony
> 
> Yep, generally in bars.  Nobody I'd want on my side on the ground more
> than Marines, though.  They have an attitude you cannot find in any of
> the other services.
This may start a war (and I've never been in a *real* one), but I have
heard that the *Vandoo* (Canadian, Quebec) were every bit as tough and
possibly better trained than the Marines. Maybe that was just the
appreciative comment of my brother.
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:41:20 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Stephan Aspridis wrote:
> 
> Hello,
[snip what he is trying to accomplish]
> 2D Hexmaps (as used in Traveller) aren't very realistic; I am not
> particulary well inclined to them, so I decided to make use of 3D
> sectors.
The first only follows from the second. 

[snip description of methods and reasoning]

> Ciao,
> Stephan
I too have worked on a system of 3d mapping for my own amusement. My
question to you is ' why try to stuff round data into a square hole? '
A  sector does not have to be 32x40 parsecs in a *new* system. I feel it
should be more like 31x31 in diameter ( a centre plus 15 hexes in any
direction). That makes for an very large sector. I used an 11x11 hex
with  a jump of 6 taking you into a new sector (or subsector, whatever). 
This eventually led to a revised numbering and display system which
allows the astrogator to see what and where is available within his
jump  area. I had posted (I thought) my ideas for you people to shatter,
but it was during the ice storm down east and may not have been
received. I still have a copy I think or can rewrite from memory if your
interested. 
I believe a new 3d system has merit but will not necessarily be for
everyone.
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:10:53 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Government Types in Traveller

Ed Jenkins Wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

     Greetings fellow TMLer's,

     I am wondering if anyone could provide info on just what exactly the
various government types in Trav are?  I mean, just what is a fuedal
technocracy?  I guess I am actually looking for any real world examples of the
various types listed in the game, and some descriptions.  After all, the way I
see the US govt (for example), it could be a Representitive Democracy, a Civil
Service Bureaucracy, an Impersonal Bureaucracy, or a Self-Perpetuating
Oligarchy!  Please help me out...I don't really need very detailed
descriptions, just something so I can make them work for my players.

Thanks in advance,
Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Your comment about what the US Gov't could be in Traveller brings out a significant point about government types - what the government calls itself isn't necessarily what it is. Imagine how far a trade negotiation team would get if they referred to His Excellency the Prime Minister as a Non-Charismatic Dictator? 

The UPP code for government is what the Scout Service, Imperial Bureaucracy, or other survey authority classified the government as being closest to - they could easily make mistakes, especially in a poorly studied or seldom visited culture. A JTAS article I've read even pointed out that it might not be the only government on the planet or in the system - their example was a low-tech Representative Democracy that was actually just the nomad tribe living closest to the star port - the rest of the planet had little knowledge the star port was even there, but the corporation that built the star port made it look like the natives were a united culture as part of a trade monopoly scheme.

Feudal Technocracy is one of those hard-to-picture governments, I don't think any exist on this planet right now (unless you count some corporations or universities as "societies"). Lately I've seen it identified as a kind of catch-all for any society where what you do for a living or what technology you control defines how much power you have - "He who controls computers controls the world!!!" .  Technologically Elevated Dictatorships (TED's), Technocracies, Scientocracies, Government by Guild or Trade Union (don't piss off the Brotherhood of Sanitation Engineers, they have clout) - all these would fall into the broad definition of "Feudal Technocracy".


Walt Smith
smithw@hartwick.edu
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Government? I thought it was a keg party..."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:15:02 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Minor Race Generation

Ok Marc, I'll take a copy.

j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:39:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

Announcement: My name has now appeared in the subject line of more messages
than anyone else on the TML with the exception of Marc Miller and Dave
Nilsen.  Either I'm that controversial, or that revered--maybe I'm just that
painful ache in the back of your neck that never really goes away...

Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC writes: 

>>    'Common era'.  Common to who?  Which culture?  The Chinese? the
>> Arabs?  the Jews?  who?  What PC stupidity.  Recall what Voltaire said
>> about the Holy Roman Empire (assuming dead white guys rate that much
>> time in History classes these days).
>
>Common meaning "common to the world."

   But to paraphrase Voltaire, "it isn't common to all, and it isn't an era,
merely a convenient place to break history".

>However, due to what I call "Microsoft dating" (not virtual sex, folks) the 
>backward compatibility issue with our current, lame calendar system must 
>be maintained, even if the naming conventions are changed.

   There is no reason to drop AD/BC for CE/BCE, since doing so is nothing
more than "intellectual wallpaper"--an attempt to pretend that we have
purged God from our calendars.  It allows pseudointellectual humanists to
feel hip, and strut around as though they are actually one with the rest of
the world (forgetting that they are by nature elitists), and *that* reason
alone is good enough for me to object vigorously to the change.

>Hell, we can't get folks in the US to learn metrics, how're we going to get
>them to accept a more modern calendar?

   OK, let's approach this from a purely economic point of view for a
moment.  Let's assume that everyone can agree on a date to restart the
calendar.  Do you want to be the one who has to pay for the "upgrade"?
*Nobody* will (part of why the metric system has failed to take hold in the
US).  

   We live in a civilization that was founded by a bunch of Christian
religious fanatics and BC/AD reflects that.  Had they not been so fanatical,
we wouldn't be having this conversation right now--in fact there would not
be a Western Civilization.  People need to understand where we as a
civilization come from, and be comfortable with it, even if we'd don't
worship in the same way (or at all).

   If God means so little to your typical pseudointellectual humanist, why
all the vigorous attempts to erase it from our culture?  Because they don't
like the guilt they feel when they are confronted with a symbol of it?
Maybe they aren't as comfortable in their so-called atheism as they pretend
to be...

>Keep a stiff upper lip, we haven't taken away X-mas, yet.

   The fact you use 'X-mas' and not 'Christmas' says more than you think.

>Just bagged
>Valentine's Day in some school districts, though.  Heh.  A joke, a joke.

   Actually several school districts have bagged Halloween activities on
"religious grounds".  You can expect that somebody, somewhere will bring up
the fact that St. Valentine's Day is a religious holiday and therefore
should be banned.

>Relax people.  Cultures change, and the America most of us were raised in no
>longer exists except in our memories...

   But are the changes taking place for the better?  Desegregation?  yes.
Quota systems?  no.  Teaching about other cultures and systems of belief?
yes.  Removing all religious symbols and activities from school property?
no.  Birth control?  yes.  Abortion on demand as a means of birth control?
no.  A more open dialog about sex?  yes.  Sex without responsibility?  no.

   Culture change can and must be made to work toward making society better.
If it doesn't, it might be *change* but it isn't *progress*.  Those things
that were best about our culture 20, 30, 40 years ago can always be
recaptured if we are willing to work for them. 

>I for one am glad to see a kinder, gentler (*roflmao* doublespeak still
>kills me) Traveller.  T4 is no longer published just in the states: never
>was just in the states really.  If publishers want to grow their businesses,
>they have to realize this and appeal to a broader range of consumers.

   Agreed, in that a broad appeal is necessary to reach a wide range of
consumers.  However, it should also be remembered that things American
*sell*, otherwise there would not be a McDonalds in Japan, no one outside of
the US would have heard of Elvis Presley, and you wouldn't be able to see an
American TV show in Germany (I of course skillfully leave out all references
to EuroDisney, for which I once again apologize to the people of France).

>Another example: rice.  Yup, y'all buckeyes (denizens of the state of Ohio
>for those across the pond) wouldn't like it much if we Texans (I used to be
>a buckeye) flavored all the prepackaged rice, grown here, that you buy in
>the store; we think it's too bland - no enough cayenne, habanero, and
>jalapeno for us.

   I know what you are saying, but a certain amount of cultural prejudice is
always going to take place in writing.  Look at Children of Earth.  It was
deliberately written in such a manner that the Terran Republic is *not* a
democracy, yet if you read the material, you can see ideas and concepts
there that are most definitely influenced by my American upbringing.

>ObTrav: another perennial thread, sort of, but how many people (besides me)
>inflict snack duty on players?  Do you demand that they bring something
>Travelleresque to the table?  (No, even though this GM can be bribed with
>white fudge covered Oreos, they are NOT Travelleresque.)

   My players generally bring in Taco Bell and the usual junk food.  Since
burritos could be confused with Hiver "corndogs", I guess you could say the
fare is "Travelleresque"  :-)

   BTW, if for some reason my players were to bring in fudge covered Oreos
for my consumption (I prefer the regular as opposed to the white chocolate
variety), suitable rewards would be arranged, Nick and John.   :-)

>No flame intended, Harold.  You're a great guy.  I guess we'll just have to
>agree to disagree.  

   And I intend no flame in your direction.

   It's just that I see no purpose in rooting out all vestiges of our
civilization's Christian roots.  There is strong evidence that doing so
leaves behind an emptiness that has resulted in many of the social ills you
see today (while you and I may be intellectual moralists, the masses need
belief in *something*--Christ, Allah, Zen, whatever--in order to behave).

   On the other hand I recognize that not everyone is Christian and that
they have a right to worship (or not) as they wish.  The Constitution of the
US guarantees the freedom to worship as we choose, as does the constitution
and legal precedents of other Western countries.  That is as it should be.

>[BTW, I'm sorry about Glenn.  IIRC, even the NRA was
>silent on how to vote on that one; at least word of it never filtered down
>here.  I'm going to be up to visit the parents in Toledo during 16-21 March
>or so; which part of the Peoples' Republic of Ohio are you in?]

   I called Kettering, Ohio (a suburb of Dayton) home until October of last
year, when I moved to Lexington, Kentucky (about a two drive or so south).
Most of my family is still up there and I visit frequently.

   BTW, Ohio now has a Republican governor and a Republican legislature.  My
goal is to covert the Commonwealth of Kentucky next.  :-)

   My apologies to the list for the off-topic stuff in this post, I'm know
people are starting to get restless...

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:55:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Shuttle Ride

Greg Smith writes:

>A long standing dream of mine has been to ride the shuttle, or more 
>accurately, to eventually get into space...  Anyone share that dream?

   Given that I get queasy while being on a commerical airliner in descent
(but not for some reason during takeoff and ascent) I would probably puke my
guts out the entire time I was in orbit on the shuttle (or any other
spacecraft) and be forced to live on I-Vs.

   I would also be the happiest man in the Universe.

>Also, what would you pay (how much), in a world-wide lottery, for a 
>chance at a seat as an observer/mission specialist on one of the Space 
>Shuttles?  $50?  $100?

   I am not authorized by my creditors to spend as much as I would be
willing to for a chance.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:25:39 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

At 09:54 AM 11/02/98 -0500, Harold wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn writes:
>>That's a very 'western' POV, you know. In fact most of the Roman culture
>>and civilization was not lost but alive and well in the Eastern Roman
>>(Byzantine) Empire, until the Arabs, Crusaders and Italian city sataes did
>>for it.
>
>   What survived in Byzantium was more Greek than Latin.  In fact it would
>be fair to say that Byzantium was *Greek* civilization (certainly modern
>Greeks seem to think so), with Roman titles and some Latin thrown in for
flavor.

I'm aware of that, but much of the 'Roman' culture and knowledge people
talk about was of Greek origin anyway. The Romans greatly admired Greek
civilization and set out to aquire/copy/steal as much of it as they could.
Greek slave tutors were fashionable in Rome for a very long time, as they
were held to be more civilized than other people.

>   The massive debt we owe Byzantium in the West (and to a certain extent
>the Arabs and Turks) stems from the fact that it did preserve many bits and
>pieces of our Latin roots that would have otherwise been lost.  These bits
>and pieces *heavily* influenced the Renaissance and later Scientific
Revolution.

Not to mention much of the Classical and Helenistic Greek writings that we
have now. It's a pity that so much was lost when some of the extremist
Christian Emporers, mobs and churchmen burnt various books and libraries
they didn't approve of.

>   ObTrav: I see the states of the Solomani Rim (Dingir League, Old Earth
>Union, Vegan Polity, Easter Concord) more or less serving the same purpose
>for the Third Imperium that Byantium did for the West.  Those states would
>have preserved at least some portion of the culture of the Second Imperium,
>and contact with those states would have greatly influenced the 3I in its
>development.

I think the Terrans would have more impact if the 3I had put little more
effort into rimward expansion earlier. By the time Terra was incorporated
it was (IMO) too late as it never became truely integrated into the 3I,
with disasterous results.


- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:40:50 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

At 09:21 AM 11/02/98 PST, Greg Smith wrote:
>>
>>If I had to choose an army to be in based on casualty rates I think 
>>I'd go with the WWII German Army, as they lost rather less men than 
>>those they faced, under some pretty bad odds.
>>
>
>I guess they didn't face too many Marines, then...  :-)

I can't tell you off-hand, but I suspect not. Bear in mind, though that an
enormous amount of the revision done to the way militaries operate after
WWII was copied from the German military. The Germans were the first to
develop and use combined arms & air power usefully, and thrashed the
British and French in France, even though the allies were more numerous and
better equiped.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:44:49 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

At 11:34 AM 11/02/98 -0600, Tony wrote:
>> If I had to choose an army to be in based on casualty rates I think I'd go
>> with the WWII German Army, as they lost rather less men than those they
>> faced, under some pretty bad odds.
>> 
>> -- Rupert Boleyn
>> 
>	I can agree with that, just ask the British in Northern Africa what
>the Germans did.  The Germans were way outgunned, and outmanned, not to
>mention being forsaken by their Leader, and still managed to hold on in one
>the the greatest, yet often overlooked battles in WWII.  By the time the
>Germans finally fell, the British losses were astronomical, not necessarily
>a victory if you ask me.
>
>	Tony

I remember reading that even late in the war the Soviets were very
impressed by the German infantry, because despite the lack of well trained
replacements the Germans were still very effective because their fire
discipline was very good.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #144
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 145



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Mines
Re: Starship economics
Character Names
Re: Government types
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.  (was RE:  What CE means)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #141
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Red Zones
Re: Rome and the Imperium
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Character Names
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: 3D sectors
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Starship economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:05:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Mines

If you want to be really nasty, just dump loads of small, dense spheres
in low orbits around planets.  These will be moving quite fast and
could do significate damage to ships landing or taking off.  You'd
want to bring several large ships full of them, but if you put them
in various erratic orbits, you could cause some havoc.  This is
probably more a terrorist type weapon than a military weapon, but
could be nasty nonetheless.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:43:40 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Hello Hans,
 I use a modified version of what you spoke about with regards to the
income problem...

1) the rate is per parsec, not per jump.

2) for every two parsecs over the first, I give an increase in income based
on the current trend to give bonuses to higher speed travel as compared
with lower speed travel.

  This helps the faster ships to compete and be profitable.  My only real
problem with the high "transport" shipping costs is that prices of goods
have to be much higher in order to turn a profit.  For example: if you have
a good that normally would cost 1,000 credits per unit, and you can ship 4
units per Dton, then the cost per parsec would be an additional 250 credits
per persec distance travelled.  So, if you have a target planet 4 parsecs
away, the shipping add on costs now equal an additional 1000 credits to the
value of the item shipped.  So now, the merchant, must sell his "item" at a
minimum of 2000 credits to break even.  Yet Traveller generally doesn't
seem to reflect this "reality" in it's economic rules.

  What I would kind of like to see happen?  

1) raw materials not be affected by tech level as much as they are.  A TL 3
ton of ore should not be worth 70% less than a tech 10 ton of ore.  Trade
imbalances are going to be severe if for every 1 credit a world earns in
trade, it pays out 7 (or more)

2) wholesale is a hell of a lot different than retail.  When buying food
from a source, and then selling it at market, there should be a higher
difference between the cost of a speculative good, and it's resale.  If I
might suggest, perhahps the cost of goods should be dropped an extra 1,000
credits.  Also, the cost of goods should not be increased due to poorer
starports as drastically as they are.  What is to keep the freighter from
landing directly at the warehouse locations on a TL2 or 3 world and loading
on his cargo?  The rationale of transportation costs doesn't wash in my
view...

3) loading times: they are non-existant.  A given trailer for an 18 wheeler
has how much volume?  How long does it take to load it?  Now compare it
with a 82 ton cargo hold of a free trader (CT version).  Assuming a 10 foot
wide by 10 foot tall by 40 foot trailer, we are looking at 4000 cubic feet
of volume.  This is equal to roughly 8 tons in Traveller by volume.
Loading times would be analogous to 10 such trailors...

      Hal

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:12:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Character Names

Are there any good resources for generating or choosing
names for Vilani (or any other races)?  I found some word
generators but was wondering if anyone had any good name
lists...

Thanks,
Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:57:47 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Government types

How about all of the above? :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:52:16 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.  (was RE:  What CE means)

At 11:07 1998-02-11 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>It's accepted etiquette in my circles to feed the GM.  More often than not,
>this consists of a hefty contribution to the pizzia fund, and bringing a
>six-pack of the GM's favorite soft drink.

"You lucky bastard"

- - Monthy Python, "Life of Brian"


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:51:05 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #141

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>It's like this, under the "jump takes 1 week"  rule, if I do something
>and then jump out of system, then *even if you know where I'm jumping
>to*, you *can't* get there first. 

This is not strictly true.  With Canon jump drives, there is some uncertainty
in the exact duration of the jump (the exact amount has varied from one
edition of the game to another).  I suggest using 148 hours (6 days, 4 
hours) to 188 hours (7 days, 20 hours), with the average being 168 hours (7 
days exactly).  Compute this using 140+8d6, and the results will generally
match what was done in T:TNE.

If two ships were to jump to the same destination simultaneously, it'd be an 
even toss-up as to which ship arrived first. although the likelyhood is
that they'd arrive within a few hours of one another.  If it ever became 
important, as a referee I think I'd allow the engineer to attempt a task to 
skew the results (perhaps a difficult task would allow the engineer to
declare the value for 3 dice, and roll the other 5; a formidable task
would allow him to declare 5 dice, and roll the other 3), thus allowing
ships to "race" through jumpspace.  

>In short, your rule makes it possible to "overtake" a ship. Which has
>serious consequences.

It's always been possible, but subject to random factors and the referee's
whim, and never by more than somewhere beteween a few hours and a couple 
of days.

Having a jump take significantly less than a week would seriously harm the
Traveller background (eg, allowing a J-2 ship to cross a parsec in 3.5 days
as was recently proposed).  Non-canonical universes like this can be fun
(I once played in a non-canon universe where jumps took 3 days regardless
of distance travelled).



wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:20:53 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

At 16:39 1998-02-11 -0500, Harold wrote:
>>Keep a stiff upper lip, we haven't taken away X-mas, yet.
>
>   The fact you use 'X-mas' and not 'Christmas' says more than you think.

Well, in Sweden, the word for Christmas is Jul ... which is a originally
the name of the old midwinter-sacrifice Yule (from the vikings). The words
are pronounced in almost exactly the same way in Swedish.

Also, I believe that many English-speaking people are using the word
Yuletime (or something like that) to refer to the week or so before and
after Christmas. Is this correct, or am I mistaken?

A small note for the interested: Yuletime for a Viking would mean something
like "It's time to decide what cow to sacrifice"

>   Actually several school districts have bagged Halloween activities on
>"religious grounds".  You can expect that somebody, somewhere will bring up
>the fact that St. Valentine's Day is a religious holiday and therefore
>should be banned.

Especially since Halloween is originally the Celtic holy night called
Samhain, the night when the ghosts of the deceased return to the Earth, and
need to be pleased or forced away. Isn't it strange what Christianity has
picked up during it's existence?

>   On the other hand I recognize that not everyone is Christian and that
>they have a right to worship (or not) as they wish.  The Constitution of the
>US guarantees the freedom to worship as we choose, as does the constitution
>and legal precedents of other Western countries.  That is as it should be.

This is most certainly true. A great statement.

Now, I will pull out of this discussion, unless someone makes a comment on
my posts specifically (or I really cannot help myself).


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:27:28 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Red Zones

David Reed wrote:

>[I asked that this *become* a private flamewar, but I suppose you'd rather
>keep it public.]

Well... i sent the first 3 at the same time,  just for the record.  That was
last  night.  I didn't get your private message till this morning (along w/
one other).

[snip]
>>    Well... there's alot more of us than there are bombplanting terrorist
>> towelheads.  (Apologies to the Moslems whom I respect). I don't believe
>
>Hmm.  Check your facts.  How many Christians v. Muslisms are there?

1.9 Billion Christians (980 million Catholics) 1.1 Billion Muslims.  (Source:
1998 World Alamanac and Book for Facts based on UN  Figures for 1996 w/
projections)
   Seriously Christian heavy in the Americas and Europe.  I can break it down
my continent if u want. : )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:28:29 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

At 04:08 PM 11/02/98 -0500, Hal wrote:

>  To answer the gent who stated that the 3I was really DUMB, the only thing
>that I can state is that to an extent, you are correct in your assessment,
>but also incorrect.  Historians have a bad habit of yelling "WHAT A DUMB
>IDIOT" at a guy who makes his best assessment at the time with the
>information and limitations that he has.  From what I can see of the
>Imperial history regards to the Solomani question, it looks like there were
>two major politcal factions working against each other - and the solomani
>lost.  As a consequence, they went to war, and kind of both lost and won.
>Meanwhile, at the opposite end of the imperium, the Zhodani started their
>fifth frontier war, causing problems.

That would be me, I guess. What I was talking about was the 3I's lack of
Rimward effort early on - the 3I is moving in on the Zhodani about 5
sectors away before they incorporate the Solomani, only 3 sectors away.
Then they spend insufficient effort infully integrating it into the
Imperium, even though large autonomous regions are dangerous. What is more
once the Solomani power bloc was broken they ignored the dissafection of
the Solomani and made no effort to mend the fences - and this was with a
region that included the homeworld of many citizens, and included about a
third of the volume of the 3I at that time. Then when they couldn't ignore
the Solomani anymore they didn't even finish the job properly, thus leaving
the Solomani as a constant threat, and handing the Solomani the rimward
frontier.

Likewise they let the Julian Protectorate go, and never even tried to get
it back, even though it was part of both the 1st and the 2nd Imperiums.
This permanantly blocked coreward expansion.

The Frontier Wars show that the 3I was seldom prepared for war, and this in
a sector that abuts a large and unfriendly neighbour. IMO the 3I was damn
lucky that the Zho's wern't expansionistic, because if they were the 3I
would stop at Corridor.

>  In a way, from what I recall of my Roman history, the third Imperium is a
>somewhat close analogy to Rome.  Expand out as far as you can go, leave no
>enemies nearby, and then incorporate the conquored into your culture.
>Problem is, the Imperium had not one "Persia" to contend with, but two.
>Perhaps the biggest "error" in the Imperium, is that they allowed the
>Villani to sway them to the point where the Solomani went to war.  Had they
>been able to create a united front against the Zhodani, the third Imperium
>might have been able to bring the full effect of it's economic and military
>might against the Zhodani.

The Zhodani are quite like the Persians - they aren't expansionistic
towards Rome/3I, but the Solomani are kind of like if the Romans,once
thay'd defeated Carthage adsorbed them into the Republic, and then when
they rebelled let them and their Spanish colonies go.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:54:11 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

>>I guess they didn't face too many Marines, then...  :-)
>
>I can't tell you off-hand, but I suspect not. Bear in mind, though 
>that an enormous amount of the revision done to the way militaries 
>operate after WWII was copied from the German military. The Germans 
>were the first to develop and use combined arms & air power usefully, 
>and thrashed the British and French in France, even though the allies 
>were more numerous and better equiped.
>
>-- Rupert Boleyn

You are so right!  In OCS (Officer Candidate School) we went through a 
training phase which was borrowed from the German Army following WWII.  
It was to make us think of solutions...think outside the box.  Very 
important in the USMC today, and, I suspect, the rest of the US 
services.  

"Mission-type orders" are given that contain the "Commander's Intent" so 
that if an oportunity arises that allows you to get the results your 
commander wants but not what he specifically ordered you to do, you can 
jump on it.  Allows you to rest more heavily on your lower ranking 
individuals without having to check back for authority.

Combined Arms comment.... After an exercise in Norway, during the after 
action briefings, the Norwegian Commander asked how come he couldn't get 
any air support.  He had heard aircraft over the Marine Corps' area the 
whole time, but couldn't get any support himself.  He wanted to know 
why!  Turns out that the airpower that was over the Marines was Marine 
Air, owned by the Marine Commander on the ground.  Nothing like owning 
your own aircover.

Marine Air....Don't leave home without it.

The Wehrmacht gave us lots of advances in warfighting!

Greg Smith

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:59:52 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Character Names

In a message dated 98-02-11 17:16:58 EST, you write:

<< 
 Are there any good resources for generating or choosing
 names for Vilani (or any other races)?  I found some word
 generators but was wondering if anyone had any good name
 lists...
  >>

List 001	216 Vilani Words
 1	2	3	Word
 1	2	3	Word
 1	2	3	Word
 1	2	3	Word
 1	1	1	Sheka Shuu
1	1	2	Arkamsharkhi
1	1	3	Dir
1	1	4	Akhummikim
1	1	5	Lashe
1	1	6	Argarkaakhid
1	2	1	Dudakhuudne
1	2	2	Amashamu
1	2	3	Dashumshukiir
1	2	4	Khularkikus
1	2	5	Gusaamapkim
1	2	6	Iirshumdalun
1	3	1	Gi
1	3	2	Dushla
1	3	3	Shardunkaamde
1	3	4	Inuzinkii
1	3	5	Shuurgakhali
1	3	6	Adiidashii
1	4	1	Kam
1	4	2	Aamki
1	4	3	Andabarlig
1	4	4	Ushkheku
1	4	5	Khikibasha
1	4	6	Gisgamgu
1	5	1	Kargunugir
1	5	2	Luumiiguupzu
1	5	3	Khidgim
1	5	4	Khunarkii
1	5	5	Gam
1	5	6	Up
1	6	1	Galiimkim
1	6	2	Minke
1	6	3	Nisa
1	6	4	Kishukdushaa
1	6	5	Ar
1	6	6	Muumudguskha
2	1	1	Luudkaamakhin
2	1	2	Imashgigu
2	1	3	Zii
2	1	4	Lir
2	1	5	Gikhupa
2	1	6	Da
2	2	1	Ishshamkuugas
2	2	2	Uurur
2	2	3	Gankiikilu
2	2	4	Shu
2	2	5	Kirdasguulan
2	2	6	Gumigbargiish
2	3	1	Is
2	3	2	Kuk
2	3	3	Shashgadudgaash
2	3	4	Lush
2	3	5	Agumkhagge
2	3	6	Khegagiinshug
2	4	1	Migukhekhaar
2	4	2	Gukhimar
2	4	3	Ashirdakgu
2	4	4	Khuki
2	4	5	Khiikhu
2	4	6	Ashduggurshii
2	5	1	Maaki
2	5	2	Bigammiirgi
2	5	3	Akidkhakas
2	5	4	Miindarkhakhu
2	5	5	Ashkamkaliis
2	5	6	Rukemgungim
2	6	1	Sakunmaamga
2	6	2	Gigali
2	6	3	Khimmarlisgim
2	6	4	Dirinshaa
2	6	5	Ma
2	6	6	Arlamumgash
3	1	1	Aziggamkuur
3	1	2	Kashamumar
3	1	3	Kanniishaka
3	1	4	Bidu
3	1	5	Aamagiibiis
3	1	6	Armurkikii
3	2	1	Bar
3	2	2	Lun
3	2	3	Ummibesum
3	2	4	I
3	2	5	Iigkuurshurkha
3	2	6	Gamishge
3	3	1	Ge
3	3	2	Iid
3	3	3	Zusushir
3	3	4	Mudadamni
3	3	5	Ukishuga
3	3	6	Imsaamshirkar
3	4	1	Ishapdi
3	4	2	Gadmakiirshar
3	4	3	Kikagadir
3	4	4	Unmidedshi
3	4	5	Girmiimliraa
3	4	6	Er
3	5	1	Ku
3	5	2	Shimgershii
3	5	3	In
3	5	4	Uug
3	5	5	Nisili
3	5	6	Gesumur
3	6	1	Migga
3	6	2	Gulagaki
3	6	3	Isagulii
3	6	4	Gan
3	6	5	Aladarge
3	6	6	Ga
4	1	1	Kabikha
4	1	2	Ruusamgig
4	1	3	Ar
4	1	4	Gerkiikudam
4	1	5	Lanip
4	1	6	Irkishirmuu
4	2	1	Ush
4	2	2	Kagi
4	2	3	Ra
4	2	4	Ankamke
4	2	5	Kamdun
4	2	6	Digiissakhuu
4	3	1	Zam
4	3	2	Gugidiki
4	3	3	Ginaliimshim
4	3	4	Uum
4	3	5	Kamumshis
4	3	6	Shuurgaamiki
4	4	1	Shugirshenlu
4	4	2	Gaampukkhe
4	4	3	Gagasaakler
4	4	4	Ash
4	4	5	Ekikuge
4	4	6	Is
4	5	1	Dik
4	5	2	Maanaakhema
4	5	3	Mamshagikar
4	5	4	Aamda
4	5	5	Unkiggagshar
4	5	6	Nimam
4	6	1	Khakikhusin
4	6	2	Sekazadun
4	6	3	Kuunkaagudur
4	6	4	Irkaargusga
4	6	5	Anlalur
4	6	6	Lilakedkha
5	1	1	Kugiilarke
5	1	2	Gilarlaa
5	1	3	Lirmikhigaar
5	1	4	Ilaggaaga
5	1	5	Iirnardedkir
5	1	6	Askhidru
5	2	1	Mii
5	2	2	Isaarkigi
5	2	3	Shumu
5	2	4	Sepaan
5	2	5	Liimargaka
5	2	6	Ki
5	3	1	Agshamshimde
5	3	2	Kaakumanu
5	3	3	Lumakhi
5	3	4	Salaama
5	3	5	Anshiigshiirdiir
5	3	6	Umurmila
5	4	1	Umkukhunsu
5	4	2	Agdinnirkhe
5	4	3	Erlaam
5	4	4	Lugik
5	4	5	Irlir
5	4	6	Ikarshaluu
5	5	1	Migag
5	5	2	Puur
5	5	3	Khakikarkur
5	5	4	Dasasamii
5	5	5	Ar
5	5	6	Laagagkhash
5	6	1	Dii
5	6	2	Niikhi
5	6	3	Khakuudilas
5	6	4	Nad
5	6	5	Galur
5	6	6	Kakhi
6	1	1	Dekamki
6	1	2	Kaganlinnin
6	1	3	Ushankalar
6	1	4	Kikardur
6	1	5	Iingumnimar
6	1	6	Akis
6	2	1	Igshirsushush
6	2	2	U
6	2	3	Shakakhimkin
6	2	4	La
6	2	5	Aglumsi
6	2	6	U
6	3	1	Lugiimemni
6	3	2	Shimiisukaa
6	3	3	Saasiibugam
6	3	4	Gagu
6	3	5	Ilii
6	3	6	Magiikadshem
6	4	1	Ka
6	4	2	Khakhirnala
6	4	3	Iirgushkar
6	4	4	Shir
6	4	5	Arkakarmi
6	4	6	Iseshgasnash
6	5	1	Dakharkiid
6	5	2	Gikiiddu
6	5	3	Gassishga
6	5	4	Ikmushasha
6	5	5	Lashakisi
6	5	6	Miirmashlika
6	6	1	Gurgushagur
6	6	2	Asshashsusha
6	6	3	Ger
6	6	4	Lalagaar
6	6	5	Kemgikiidmir
6	6	6	Sirkaa
 	Randomly select a word by rolling three successive D6.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:53:40 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Andrew Akins wrote:

> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
TNE was, IMHO, the best rules set for rules.  But, I've used CT more.

> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

CT - Pre Fifth Frontier War (just loved the Twilight's Peak Trilogy and
Leviathon).
and
Hard Times - Its nice not to have to deal with the Imperial Navy.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 00:16:23 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Jim Cooper wrote:
> 
> I too have worked on a system of 3d mapping for my own amusement. My
> question to you is ' why try to stuff round data into a square hole? '
> A  sector does not have to be 32x40 parsecs in a *new* system. I feel it

It doesn't. Since there are more than enough systems in 3D space, I wanted
to make the sector 10x10x10 parsec in size.

[much interesting stuff deleted]
> jump  area. I had posted (I thought) my ideas for you people to shatter,
> but it was during the ice storm down east and may not have been
> received. I still have a copy I think or can rewrite from memory if your
> interested. 
I can only speak for myself, but: Please post it. I am very interested.

> I believe a new 3d system has merit but will not necessarily be for
> everyone.

Especially not for people who can't spell Trignnom.. err Trrigg.., well, that
math stuff with triangles ;-))

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 00:16:35 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Deadeye wrote:
>
> Yeah, I'm doing 3D pencil cubes right now, but the problem is that with
> no rotation some systems mask others.  There is also no easy way to
> check distances.
For distance, you (or, to be specific, the poor player who plays the astrogator) need 
simple trigonometry.

I thought about that masking thing, too. Wouldn't it be a solution to print the map four
times - once from every side? Like in the old 3D isometric computer games where
you could switch the view when something was masked by its surroundings.

> A nice nav computer program will solve all of this, but my intent had
> simply been to build the cube in lightwave and turn it into a gif
> animation rotating. 
Sounds o.k., but isn't that a bit difficult to print? ;-)

> As for where I am now, I just draw an isometric cube, put little circles
> in and ring them with star systems.  Still primitive and it is unweildy
> to try to visualize surrounding sectors.  
I think this problem is inherent in this particular design, especially if the player
group suddenly decides to jump out of the sector...

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:19:27 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

> REGULAR PASSENGER LINER OR FREIGHTER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35
> jumps per year):

Do these costs include amortizatio of the cost of building the ship?
             
>            Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
>            Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
> Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840
> Jump-2:     1,500     1,800    3,800    6,600    8,400    1,170      585
> Jump-3:     2,100     2,200    5,100    9,000   11,400    1,660      555
> Jump-4:                                13,400             2,400      600
> Jump-5:                                19,800             3,660      735
> Jump-6:                                35,000             6,370    1,065
> 
> (The blank spots in the table I haven't take the time to calculate yet).
> 
> *Assuming the route is an exact multiple of the jump rating.

So to put it in terms of what would be charged, adding a 5% profit,
you would have (for one jump shipments, presumably multiple jumps
would just add in the compenent jumps).....

Distance    Cost
Jump-1       880
Jump-2      1500
Jump-3      2080
Jump-4      2710
Jump-5      3480
Jump-6      4600

Right?

Or to simplify...
Charge = 24 + 720*Jump#/ton
which gives an OK fit (it squeezes Jump 1 and Jump 6 carriers).  Or you
can go with
Charge = 205 + 640*Jump#/ton 
with a 500cr premium for Jump 6 carriers
(maybe they are in demand because so many merchants are shipping
multiple
distances in a rush and don't want to wait for two jump 3's).

> Larger ships will reduce the costs further, but only if the worlds it serve
> can supply enough passengers/freight to keep the ship filled an average of
> 90% on each trip.

Yeah, I have always assumed there are cargo ships the size of Imperial
Dreadnaughts (though not as well armed :-) that run only to place
like Regina and only on a contract basis (and only MegaCorps can
afford so their cost doesn't really matter to PC's)
_____________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #145
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 11 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 146



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship economics
Re: Traveller incarnations (was GURPS)
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Government types
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: What CE means
Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: What CE means
Re Systems & Milieux (
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Off Topic & CE/BCE and aquestion on something completely different
Alcohol Proof?
Re: Campaigns
Re: Couple Things
Re: Military Chaplains
Re: What CE means to me
OT: Ringworld idea
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)
Re: From The Archives
Re: chair dogs
Re: 3D sectors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:24:51 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:50:31 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>

> Is there any chance that you could be persuaded to change the rules for
> freight and passenger rates? The one flat rate for each type of transport
> could be explained by government fiat

Additionally, in such a rate structure, the MegaCorps would be
dominating the most profitable trade, jump 1.  This would mean
the typical megacorp ship would be a jump 1 and the only high
jump ships would be fringe operators working near rifts and
such or "Fed Ex" type carriers. 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:25:18 -0700
From: "Christopher E. Webb" <cwebb@ctos.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller incarnations (was GURPS)

At 20:21 2/10/98, you wrote:
>	combat. But as usual - rules make bad games - stories make
>	them enjoyable.

Ain't that the truth... I'm involved in a rotating quartet of games (I ref
the Traveller, and play in a White Wolf, Cyberpunk, and Rifts, in order of
dice-use).  The Rifts game is rife with pointless dice rolls ("'cuz that's
how you get experience," I'm told -- we spent an entire five hour session
rolling dice to walk through a one-kilometer-wide minefield).  Cyberpunk
has plenty of "Accidental Seduction" rolls (I won't try to explain).  White
Wolf has lots of "Player A wants to Intimidate Player B, so roll
Intimidation" (Player A is someone who thinks *she* should *always* be the
center of attention).

The players were neurotic during the first TNE gaming session -- they
almost never used their dice after generating characters, although they had
crashed on an uncharted planet inhabited by TL2/TL3 natives, and they were
having to learn an alien tongue to communicate.  I had a synthetic language
ready that I had adapted/borrowed, and used it (forcing them to interpret
it and speak it themselves).  By the end of the session, the players were
all very impressed with Traveller in general & my campaign in specific; one
of the players even e-mailed to all of us his language guide a couple weeks
later.

Christopher E. Webb
cwebb@ctos.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 05:26:36 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Schmidt AA (Anthony) at MSXSSC wrote:

[snip]

>         The theory that marines just charge the hill and allow their bodies
> to pile up is totally false.  If you look at historical references to most
> major battles you will find that the ratio of marines lost is less than that
> of the army, or the enemy.  They have been known on several historical
> occasions to hold against far superior forces, with just a handful of
> marines.

Two words:  Wake Island.  Look it up.

Bloo (with apologies to digesters)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 05:21:34 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

[snip tp keep digesters happy :-)   ]

> Obtrav...  have any of the Emperors or Empresses been religious?  Nothing said
> either way, but if some were, it would be somewhat likely that they would try
> to enforce their beliefs on their subjects no?  And would great grandson
> Emperor or Empress apostasize those beliefs in a couple hundred years?

Which leads back to one of my first posts since coming back onto the list,
Religious Careers!  I'm working on it, I'm working on it.  I've decided to break
it up into two things.  First, the bares bones generic chargen tables for
different types of religious orders - for use with whatever religion.  Second, a
Third Imperium Church on the scale proportional to the Roman Catholic Church.
This second is whats taking up so much time.  But I have a question you all might
be able to help me with.  I'm going to strongly base this church on the Roman
Catholic Church.  I am leaning very strongly to making it based on
Judeo-Christianity.  Question concerns Traveller canon, not the other kind:

Is there any canon about the christianity from Terra?
(I have only T4 stuff)

I've got no problem having christianity survive to 2099 or whenever contact was
(-2422 Imperium Calender), but would it survive the collapse of the First
Imperium?
Would it spread into the Rule of Man?  (I'm not concerned about the Long Night).

I notice that Vilani contact on Sylea extends back to 8000, so I should probably
incorporate some Vilani beliefs into whatever religion survived on Sylea.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:45:45 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Government types

>     I am wondering if anyone could provide info on just what exactly the
>various government types in Trav are?  I mean, just what is a fuedal
>technocracy?  I guess I am actually looking for any real world examples of
the
>various types listed in the game, and some descriptions.  After all, the way
I
>see the US govt (for example), it could be a Representitive Democracy, a
Civil
>Service Bureaucracy, an Impersonal Bureaucracy, or a Self-Perpetuating
>Oligarchy!  Please help me out...I don't really need very detailed
>descriptions, just something so I can make them work for my players.

As I stated a little while ago, I play fuedal technocracies as an arm of the
Imperial government.  That's just the way I originally understood it, and
seems to make sense (since there are no other ways to end up with a noble
system on a planet, and yet many nobles run planets).

I would say that the U.S. is a representative democracy, without a doubt.  I
would imagine the bureaucracy types a world where everything is run by
committee and there are no approachable public figures other then petty
bureaucrats.  To many, the government of the U.S. is probably not to far off
of this, but its a fine line.  An impersonal bureaucracy I would treat like
the stereotypical U.S. view of the former soviet union during the tail end.
Waiting in line for everything, no immediately apparent politicians between
the common man and the ruler.  A civil service bureaucracy borders on utopian
socialism/communism in some ways...

Its a fine line, but of course, not all governments of the same type will act
in exactly the same way.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:48:42 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

>I like it. Hmmm, anyone out here on the TML willing to draw it?

Yes, send me a letter with an accurate description of the creature as soon as
possible.  I'm indulged at the moment with short periods of free time, so a
single set of pictures is just the thing at the moment.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:47:08 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Marc wrote:

> I'm afraid I must disagree.  CE means European Community and reflects that
>the product is safe to use. Much liek UL in the US.

Which just goes to show that you gotta know the context to answer the
question.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:13:35 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)

>The Frontier Wars show that the 3I was seldom prepared for war, and this in
>a sector that abuts a large and unfriendly neighbour. IMO the 3I was damn
>lucky that the Zho's wern't expansionistic, because if they were the 3I
>would stop at Corridor.

   It would seem to me that the best way for the zhos to insure the Imperium
won't expand their way (or to keep them contained) would be to go all the way
to the Claw.   That would have relatively ensured protection as the Claw
protected the Domain of Deneb/Regency against Virus. Of course then the Zhos
would have a longer and exposed flank to the Aslan and Vargr.  I don't know.
If I was a bigwig in the Consulate, I'd want a drive to the Claw.
   Instead they only made (relatively) small stabs confined to pretty much the
SM. Fighting Ships says that the Imperium didn't even have a BatRon of
Plankwells (it was in Corridor) and they'd gone to the "elastic defense"
posture instead of the "crust."  Lacking most CT items, can anyone tell me
what exactly the Zhos goals were and how the 5FW progressed?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:17:51 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...



>I usually do, but sometimes there is no other way out after a run of bad
>decisions. That's life.
>
>When we were much younger, my brother suicided his favorite character
>defending some women and children from pirates.  Opened fire from inside a
>rescue ball - and kept firing instead of heading for the airlock because
>he thought there were more pirates on the next deck. There weren't, but he
>wasn't sore about losing the character, just said it was the right thing
>to do and he'd do it again, then rolled up another character.
>
>I miss playing with him. He has a sense of morality missing from most
>D&D-trained gamers.
>
Hey Rob,

Come across with some details, i.e. the character's name, the ship this
happened on, millieu (assume CT?). A character like this disserves to be
immortalized and I'd like to try and work the story into My Universe, with
your permission. Kinda give these blood thirsty mad dogs I ref for something
to think about! Email me in private if you don't want to post the reply.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:25:44 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Semo asked:

>Geez.  What ever happened to standards?  :^)

The standard didn't change only the name.  What can I say?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:37:14 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re Systems & Milieux (

I play MT exclusively
I play in the SM and surrounds, and have an on-going
campaign following on from the excellent Psionic 
Knights adventures from TD14-17, (IIRC).

(Note to Doug....
if you're doing the Arbellatra Regency, don't forget
a mention for Sir Phaylenn (Order of the White Star)
what a guy.....!

Cheers

Del

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
dojones@whitestar.u-net.com

PS I also have a Early Terran alternate Traveller
campaign on the go, which pokes fun at 'Yanks
in Space'...Not that I would have a go at the fine
men & women in the US Forces, and I met a few 
in my service days , but just the terrible way
thay are portrayed in popular SF & Warry movies!
(A cross between SAAB, Aliens, Troopers (the movie)
and Independance Day meets Heartbreak Ridge and
Commando) (with a little Dad's Army thrown in for 
good measure and comic effect)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:51:32 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

At 02:54 PM 11/02/98 PST, Greg Smith wrote:
>"Mission-type orders" are given that contain the "Commander's Intent" so 
>that if an oportunity arises that allows you to get the results your 
>commander wants but not what he specifically ordered you to do, you can 
>jump on it.  Allows you to rest more heavily on your lower ranking 
>individuals without having to check back for authority.

Here they changed to that in about 1992-3 by changing the orders from "You
will go and ..." to "You will go and ... so that/in order that ..." and by
making sure that an old rule that briefings should give an overview of
whats happening two steps up the chain is actually followed, so that
section commanders actually know what the company as a whole is doing.
Previously anything past one step up used to get pretty hazy.

>Combined Arms comment.... After an exercise in Norway, during the after 
>action briefings, the Norwegian Commander asked how come he couldn't get 
>any air support.  He had heard aircraft over the Marine Corps' area the 
>whole time, but couldn't get any support himself.  He wanted to know 
>why!  Turns out that the airpower that was over the Marines was Marine 
>Air, owned by the Marine Commander on the ground.  Nothing like owning 
>your own aircover.
>
>Marine Air....Don't leave home without it.
>
>The Wehrmacht gave us lots of advances in warfighting!

Of course the Soviet Frontal Aviation was totally owned by their Army, and
was supposed to be given to commanders. Funny how cool western literature
was towards that idea in the 70's. It did mean they never had the fly boys
trying to get new fighters instead of A-10s, though.

ObTrav: Do the Imp Marines own their Ortillery, or do they get it when the
Navy not busy chasing off the last fleeing scout ship?


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:15:30 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic & CE/BCE and aquestion on something completely different

- -----Original Message-----
From: SemoFetus@aol.com <SemoFetus@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 2:55 AM
Subject: Off Topic & CE/BCE

>Sorry for inadvertently starting the whole thread, and thank you for paying
>attention if you got this far.
>
>Semo

Semo,

Unfortunately I just see this as the first "garbage" war of '98. In about 2
years on this List I've seen it degenerate to this type of thing abot twice
a year. The only difference this time is that LeRoy isn't involved, (unless
he's using an alias). I saw it coming when my mail jumped from 80 to 150 and
today reached about 250 messages, counting the "normal" non-Traveller
messages I recieve. At any rate, while I agree with your posts and you
sentiments, I don't really expect that it will help, it usually takes a
couple of weeks for the most rabid on both sides to burn themselves out and
the list to spin back to normal. Also, don't feel that it was your fault! If
it hadn't been your question it would have been something else, it just
happens!


That said, I have a question that is totally off of the subject of CE, PC,
etc., so it'll probably go completely unnoticed, but I'll ask anyway.

I'm thinking along the lines of a cruise ship and one of the Features of the
cruise is the experience of refueling in a gas giant atmosphere. Ok, what my
question is, is what are the effects of a high gee world, say Saturn, or
Jupiter on the passengers of the ship? I've always, before thought of it
like a roller coaster ride with the crew heavily strapped into their seats
and the ship buffeted about, but this won't do for this scenario. So I want
to put in some extra grav compensation, but TL constraints say that 3 gee is
the limit ( for a M:0 campaign setting). Any of the real Brains out there
have any thoughts on what the ride would be like?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 00:36:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Alcohol Proof?

Heaven save me from "inventive" players!
    For a variety of reasons too complicated my players have temporarially
stranded themselves on a balkinized tech level 4 world and are having to fight
on the side of one of the local rulers in the local Wars.  Long story but they
managed to get seperated from their starship, which is locked up so the other
natives can't get inside it, though not for lack of trying. ;) Anyway my
players still have access to their ship's library through their personal
communicators and one of them noticed the locals have got some pretty good
distilling technology.  They should have, the Brandy and Whiskey these folks
make is a trade item across half the sector.
    Anyway this guy's gotten the bright idea of using the distilling equipment
to make extremely high proof alcohol for Molatov cocktails and perhaps even
Fuel Air Bombs amongst other "miracles" of chemisty.  I hadn't quite counted on
such inventiviness on his part so I'm turning to the list for help!  I know
that each point of "Proof" equals about .5% of the volume being alcohol.  I.e.
20 proof means ten percent of the volume is pure alcohol.  So...

    At what proof is a distilate going to be liable to ignite?  Will it just
burn or is it gonna be an explosive (ie. very fast combustion) burn?

    More to the point how in the heck would you use a high proof distilate to
make something like a fuel air bomb?

    Any other ideas for the use of distilling and such for purposes of warfare?

    I have faith in the ability of all the science and engineering types to
come up with a plethora of nasty and inventive uses for this stuff.  I just
want to have some warning of what to expect before my players spring them on me
Next Session. ;)

    Many thanks in advance,

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 00:35:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Re: Campaigns

>> I wonder how many players still use their own settings? I can think
>> of a least three off the top of my head.
> Make that 4.  I still do this too.

    Add in a fifth here as well, though I did tie mine into the "canon"
Universe to some extent.  I took that excellent idea of Jumpspace "planes" and
postulated that it takes a REALLY MASSIVE object at just the "right" place
between two planes to allow access to either.  Then had a pair of Black Holes
in mutual capture orbits providing the "Bridge" between the planes.  (Yeah I
know the Black Hole Pair will eventually collapse into each other but that's
gonna take a couple tens of thousands of years.  Less than an eyeblink on the
Cosmic scale but more then enough for my purposes.)
    Anyway the justification for it is that in the early days of Vilani first
contact and the First few Interstellar Wars the Terran Confederation was
desperately sending out deep space explorers and settling along the rim like
crazy where it could afford to spare the resources from the Wars.  In any case
a couple of really deep ranging Explorers and blind follow on colonizers found
the "Bridge" and transited to the other plane of Jumpspace and thus
functionally virgin territory.  Only they found other humans race, abet in low
tech settings, which is a mystery my players are just begining to notice. ;)
    Anyway the game setting evolved from a bunch of late Second Imperium
Solomani Families (ala Pocket Empires) who decided to flee the coming collapse
Rimwards.  I generated up nine sectors worth of physical stats, placed my minor
human races where I needed them, and placed one or two jump tech capable
civilizations from the original colonizers, then had the original Families
"settle" their chosen worlds.  From that point I ran Pocket Empires forward
about 1,100 years and ended up with about a dozen major Governments (covering
at least two subsectors or more) and about three dozen minor Governments and
Bunch of independent worlds.
    It makes for an interesting setting and allows me to use the new Milieu 0
stuff as I choose to without being tied to the canon setting.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:31:57 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Couple Things

> It may be helpful at this point to remind people just who the Art Director is
> at Steve Jackson Games these days (some guy named Wiseman, I heard) and who
> will be teaching Dan Smith what Traveller is supposed to look like.
Excellent! This is exactly what I wanted to hear. This, combined with
the proposed storyline (continuation of CT), and the usual quality of
SJGs products has made me a definitive buyer! Ay, where can I sign up
for the book?
> 
> I often think my most important contribution to Traveller was hiring Bill
> Keith, lo these many years ago.
Full and complete agreement, the Keiths did marvelous work in their
time. I loved DGPs Megatraveller Journal Nr. 4 with the Gateway
Campaign (and most of te other stuff they did, including their art)!

> Gentlebeings: Steve is a Traveller fan. Long term. Dyed in the wool. He makes
> some of you look like pikers by comparison.
Which is what I suspected the first time I heard of Evil Stevies
interest in Traveller, when GDW went down...
> 
> An Example: He saw some of the teaser TNS releases I am having put onto the
> GURPS: Traveller Web page (you'll see them soon enough), and he came into my
When??
> office to tell me that they made his hair stand on end in excitement. And he
> was not kidding -- he had goosebumps. His eyes glowed. He wanted to talk
> possibilities - and he left five minutes later still excited. Unless I screw
> up big time, Traveller is going to be a GURPS product line for a long time.
> Make of it what you will.
Yipee-ay-yay! (Hats being thrown in the air) 
This somehow reminds me of when I bought MegaTraveller half a year after
i got the German translation. What a game! And it still got me....

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
**grei5001@uni-trier.de  or try   greimann@geocities.com***
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:55:36 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplains

Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format.
- --------------0EE1C8C3DD590005CE855277
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TravelrTNE@aol.com schrieb:
=20
 > >I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.  When
I did
 > >Basic, we had to attend chapel our first week.
 You do too? We had to go to Chapel as well (well we could opt out, but
 then the really dirty work waited during that hour for those who stayed
 behind: "Well, as you don=B4t seem to be doing anything right now....")
 I hated it until i realize that i could catch up on an hour of sleep
 while i was there. Made the Chaplain mad as hell, but who am i to care
 about that! ;-)
=20
 --
 -----------------------------------------------------------
 *Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
 ********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
 ****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
 -----------------------------------------------------------
- --------------0EE1C8C3DD590005CE855277
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Message-ID: <34E218ED.6097C8D5@uni-trier.de>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:32:29 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Reply-To: grei5001@uni-trier.de
Organization: VAG-Central Headquarters
X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=3D0; receipt=3D0; uuencode=3D=
0; html=3D0; linewidth=3D0
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?
References: <6a83c447.34df7b9a@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

TravelrTNE@aol.com schrieb:

> >I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.  When I=
 did
> >Basic, we had to attend chapel our first week.=20
You do too? We had to go to Chapel as well (well we could opt out, but
then the really dirty work waited during that hour for those who stayed
behind: "Well, as you don=B4t seem to be doing anything right now....")
I hated it until i realize that i could catch up on an hour of sleep
while i was there. Made the Chaplain mad as hell, but who am i to care
about that! ;-)

- --=20
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

- --------------0EE1C8C3DD590005CE855277--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:34:50 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

Scott Spieker wrote:

[snipped his rant about PC and AM/PM]

How about instead of AM/PM we use SC/SG?  Sun Comming and Sun Going.

> So I decided to use a little bandwidth here to put my little pin prick in
>the dam and see what develops...  Sorry if this message offends some of
>you, but I am a little fed up with the 'Reaganomics' of political
>correctness.

Uhh, what does Reaganomics have to do with Political Correctness?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:56:58 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: OT: Ringworld idea

> The is a Ringworld in the Vargr Extents, left unfinished.  
 Sorry to correct you there, but only the rosette is in Doggie space,
the
 Ringworld is in Hinterworlds-Sector.
 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:10:48 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Richard A. Flores schrieb:

> >much alike.  Personal opinion:those guys(the fighter jocks) should have
> >been shot.  If I had done that I couldn't live with myself, and would
> >welcome death.  But I'm just a bomber puke(read target.)
> 
> Why?  They were following orders.  
Now where did I hear this excuse before???

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:33:56 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

TravelrTNE@aol.com schrieb:

> Christians have dominated the world.  
And taking a look at "Christian" History suggests to me its a time for
change, for free and enlightened human thinking unburdened by the excess
baggage of religion! People should take up the moral standards because
they are right, nor because the feel obliged.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:15:51 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus... (perennial thread)

Reed DE (David) at MSXSSC schrieb:

> Question:  DGP's Task System?  I have waaay too many LBBs and magazines that
> I've recently re-purchased, but I'm not familiar with that.  If it resembles
> MT's, thanks anyway.
MTs system is the DGP system, only a little more developed! I loved it!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:38:54 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: From The Archives

CardSharks@aol.com schrieb:

> Thanks for your interest. I have probably 40 packages that I will get sent off
> this week.
Marc SHOULD take care of IGs shipping! Or at least tell them how its
done!!!

> PS. Not everyone gets the same thing... contents are in many ways random based
> on what was close at hand.
Sounds a bit like SJGs Illuminati Membership Box ;-)
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:19:33 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

>         And that'll happen only after we all agree how jump drive works
> ... which means agreeing with me, because I have the right answer
> (duck).
Why do we have to agree on how something works? 
It can work this way for you, this way for me, the handwave rules of MT
CT and SOM were all I ever needed to explain the general concept to my
players!
Everybody should be able to do what he likes. We dont need to create
new canon by postulating one true aswer, or do we?
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:26:23 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

I also thought about doing a cube to be read with 3D glasses.  It might
work.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #146
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 147



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[OT] Dark Conspiracy to be reprinted
Re: Patriotizmz
Re: Military Chaplains
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
the Bomb
Re: Re Systems & Milieux (
Re: Military roleplaying
Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)
Re: CE
Re: Atlantis Class destroyer
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: Annoying Language
Re: JSpace and alternate campaigns (was Re: Jump Space)
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Military roleplaying (Not so Long) and SEXY, SEXY B-52's
Re: 3D sectors
Re: chair dogs
DISREGARD
Re: Government types
Re: Since Nurenburg...
Re: Patriotism
Congratulations and the Next Step

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:55:54 +1100
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: [OT] Dark Conspiracy to be reprinted

Hi all,

Hopefully some of you will find this news interesting, and not all jump up
and down on top of me about it. I figure that some people (like me) would
have purchased Dark Conspiracy because it was from GDW, liked it, and be
interested in what is happening to it.

Cheers,
Jason



10 February, 1998

* * * FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE * * *

Archangel Entertainment To Publish Dark Conspiracy Next Edition

        Archangel Entertainment ( an adventure game publisher) announced
today that it has concluded an agreement to publish the next edition of
DARK CONSPIRACY, the award winning near-future horror/sci-fi game system
designed by Lester Smith.  Originally released in 1992 by the now defunct
Game Designers' Workshop, DARK CONSPIRACY has continued to attract players
and devotees in print and on the web.
        Ken Whitman, president of Archangel Entertainment, noted "When I
first read through DARK CONSPIRACY, it gave me the creeps.  I started
pursuing the license the next day."
        Archangel Entertainment is joined in this project by Lester Smith,
the award winning original designer of Dark Conspiracy; he commented ""GDW
knew my passion for horror games, so it didn't take much to talk  me into
designing one. I threw myself into DARK CONSPIRACY, heart and soul, and
nurtured the line with fiendish love. I'm excited to see it  coming back
into print!""
        DARK CONSPIRACY originally appeared in 12 products and modules.
Archangel plans to revise the game system into a DARK CONSPIRACY REFEREE'S
GUIDE (256 pages, $20)  and a DARK CONSPIRACY PLAYER'S HANDBOOK (256 pages,
$20)  in May of 1998 followed by three follow-on modules by the end of the
year.
        DARK CONSPIRACY is a trademark of Dark Conspiracy Enterprises.
        For More information, contact Ken Whitman, 414-248-7189,
414-249-9456 (fax), or archangel@archangelent.com

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:42:20 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Patriotizmz

Not to be misunderstood, I just want to say I am simply expressing a
stong guardian feeling toward the rest of my buddies around the world.
I'm not demeaning anyones forces as I know a lot of them.

One of my dreams is to get down to see the down under or get back over
to Europe again.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:02:43 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplains

At 10:55 PM 11/02/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rzmail.uni-trier.de
id BAA21269
>
>TravelrTNE@aol.com schrieb:
> 
> > >I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.  When
>I did
> > >Basic, we had to attend chapel our first week.
> You do too? We had to go to Chapel as well (well we could opt out, but
> then the really dirty work waited during that hour for those who stayed
> behind: "Well, as you dont seem to be doing anything right now....")
> I hated it until i realize that i could catch up on an hour of sleep
> while i was there. Made the Chaplain mad as hell, but who am i to care
> about that! ;-)

When I did my Basic Sunday morning was 'free' if you didn't go to church, a
great time to catch up. Most of us didn't go to church, but we did thank
the Chaplains for that free time, because if they wern't there I'm sure the
Army would've found a use for that time.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:04:38 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

At 06:34 PM 11/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Scott Spieker wrote:
>
>[snipped his rant about PC and AM/PM]
>
>How about instead of AM/PM we use SC/SG?  Sun Comming and Sun Going.
>
That make you a Sun worshipper then? IIRC the Christians spent quite a lot
of energy in the early days stamping you lot out.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:00:06 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

Dang it! I just got it cleaned up in here!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 3:05 AM
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...


>ANOTHER THING.
>
>_milieu_ -- SINGULAR!!!!!
>_milieux_ -- PLURAL!!!!!
>
>AIN'T WESTERN CIVILIZATION JUST FREAKIN' GREAT?????
>
>ME!!!!!
>KENJI@ACCESSONE.COM!!!!!!
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:56:20 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: the Bomb

Daniel Ray Lane said:

> I would not have wanted to be
>the first on to the beaches of the Japanense mainland.  I would have
>let the bombs fall.  It is fortunate that there was a rapprochment after
>the war that allowed us to de-demonize the Japanese.

I have an uncle who had a 1st class ticket to be in the first wave ashore in
Japan. He had survived several amphib landings, he tells me, and didn't expect
to survive that one. I do not blame him for being glad the first bomb was
dropped. I am still undecided about the second, but hindsight is 20/20, as
they say. In Truman's shoes, I would probably have made the same decision.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:26:55 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Re Systems & Milieux (

> PS I also have a Early Terran alternate Traveller
> campaign on the go, which pokes fun at 'Yanks
> in Space'...Not that I would have a go at the fine
> men & women in the US Forces, and I met a few
> in my service days , but just the terrible way
> thay are portrayed in popular SF & Warry movies!
> (A cross between SAAB, Aliens, Troopers (the movie)
> and Independance Day meets Heartbreak Ridge and
> Commando) (with a little Dad's Army thrown in for
> good measure and comic effect)


I'm surprised anyone noticed how stupid Hollywood protrays the
militaries of any country. 
I guess what you don't know you are afraid of.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:37:45 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying

> Roleplaying military adventures *does* offer a number of options and plenty
> of excitement. However, there are problems, one of which is that most
> players don't like a situation where one of them is the boss and everyone
> else is a subordinate, particularly in a military sense. That doesn't mean
> you (and they) can't/won't do it...think a Startrek game...but it takes a
> different style of playing/gming from the standard Traveller style where
> everyone is more or less equal.


True, but a good game will be set up so the characters complement each
other or intentionally drive each other bonkers.  This balance of
pc/npcs makes the  game.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:02:31 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)

Jim Cooper wrote:

> This may start a war (and I've never been in a *real* one), but I have
> heard that the *Vandoo* (Canadian, Quebec) were every bit as tough and
> possibly better trained than the Marines. Maybe that was just the
> appreciative comment of my brother.
> Jim


Actually the Ghurkas are pretty much the all time nail eaters.
Royal Marines are reputed to be just as good if not better than the
average US Marine.

The only way to really find out is to pit them against each other, but
then you have no nastiguys left:(

Did ya'll know the US Marine symbol shows the Western Hemisphere because
the Brits showed the East?  Monroe doctrine there.  Sort of outdated
today....but coooool.


I sort of see the Aslan as the Imperiums ghurkhas, but I'm sure there
are more

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:55:34 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: CE

Kenji

Sign me up for that "spewing fluids over the key board list". You break me
up (not to mention the fact that I was using my old favorite "hard" keybord
and not the niffty-neato sealed touch pad-under-keys one! I hope it recovers
after it dries, I love the sound of that key-click when I flame!).

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 3:00 AM
Subject: CE


>You BASTARDS!!!!!!!  You pointy-headed woolly-eared gap-toothed
>sheep-fondling BASTARDS!!!!!
>
>I toil over my keyboard for HOURS devising trolls for all my virtual
>friends and what do I get for it?  NADA.  ZIP.  ZILCH.  Hand-crafted barbs
>and hooks lying around unappreciated.  Not even a bite.  <sob>
>
>But you UNGRATEFUL PERVERSE GITS go APESHIT over a DATING ABBREVIATIONS.
>
>(Me, I get a bit agitated over some of my "dating abbreviations" too, in
>another sense, but that's hardly a fit topic for mixed company, even in a
>MATURE, INFORMED, FORUM FOR CRITICAL INQUIRY AND DISCUSSION like the TML,
>IS IT?????  IS IT????  OR DOES "C.E." ON TML ONLY STAND FOR "CRETINOUS
>EVACUATIONS"?)
>
>Dang you all to the deepest pits of heck!  I MEAN IT!
>
>
>Kenji Schwarz
>kenji@accessone.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:58:35 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Atlantis Class destroyer

Active decoys are single-shot (as are passive); it doesn't take long for
a sensor tofigure out which is which, as they get further from the 
target. I suppose they could be towed and hence reusable, but that seems
awkward in space combat. (Modern military aircraft are going towards
expensive active decoys, either towed or disposable...) It takes a lot
of electronics to imitate a giant warship, even briefly.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:59:35 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

At 12:36 AM 12/02/98 GMT, Stephen wrote:
>Heaven save me from "inventive" players!
>    For a variety of reasons too complicated my players have temporarially
>stranded themselves on a balkinized tech level 4 world and are having to fight
>on the side of one of the local rulers in the local Wars.  Long story but they
>managed to get seperated from their starship, which is locked up so the other
>natives can't get inside it, though not for lack of trying. ;) Anyway my
>players still have access to their ship's library through their personal
>communicators and one of them noticed the locals have got some pretty good
>distilling technology.  They should have, the Brandy and Whiskey these folks
>make is a trade item across half the sector.
>    Anyway this guy's gotten the bright idea of using the distilling equipment
>to make extremely high proof alcohol for Molatov cocktails and perhaps even
>Fuel Air Bombs amongst other "miracles" of chemisty.  I hadn't quite counted on
>such inventiviness on his part so I'm turning to the list for help!  I know
>that each point of "Proof" equals about .5% of the volume being alcohol. I.e.
>20 proof means ten percent of the volume is pure alcohol.  So...
>
>    At what proof is a distilate going to be liable to ignite?  Will it just
>burn or is it gonna be an explosive (ie. very fast combustion) burn?

IIRC the old test for proof was that when mixed with water 50/50 a proof
mixture would just burn. I think there needs to be about 27% alcohol for
the alcohol to burn. Now even at 100% alcohol you'll be very lucky to get
explosive alcohol/air mixes or FAE, because (ethyl) alcohol just doesn't
burn fast or hot enough.

>    More to the point how in the heck would you use a high proof distilate to
>make something like a fuel air bomb?

You could try forcing it out under pressure to make an aerosol and then
igniting it, but I don't think there'd be enough ooomph.

>    Any other ideas for the use of distilling and such for purposes of
warfare?

If you can distill alcohol you can distill hydrocarbons, so if they can
find any then they'd have their FAEs, Molotovs and other fun toys. At TL4
there shuold be gunpodwer and any decent chemist should be able to make
nitroglyerene, guncotton and cordite. A good chemist should be able to make
picric acid or TNT both of which make fine HE shell fillers. BTW good old
ammonium-urea fertilizer explosive is well within TL4 and while it would be
better with the addition of some light oil or diesel fuel it'll go fine
without.

>    I have faith in the ability of all the science and engineering types to
>come up with a plethora of nasty and inventive uses for this stuff.  I just
>want to have some warning of what to expect before my players spring them
on me
>Next Session. ;)

Alcohol makes a fine rocket fuel, with the addition of an oxidiser - say
hydrogen peroxide or nitirc acid, neither of which are too hard to make.

>    Many thanks in advance,
>
>Stephen



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:45:13 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

Atta boy.  Give 'em what for.

Thanks,

Richard

- -----Original Message-----
From: SemoFetus@aol.com <SemoFetus@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Annoying Language


<snip>

>Responses to this should be sent to me via e-mail.
>
>Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:40:54 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: JSpace and alternate campaigns (was Re: Jump Space)

>> However, this thread has me thinking again ...


>It's like this, under the "jump takes 1 week"  rule, if I do something
>and then jump out of system, then *even if you know where I'm jumping
>to*, you *can't* get there first. ...

[snip of further discussion]

Thank you Leonard, this is exactly the sort of thing I would not have
thought of until the campaign is up an running. Any other problems, anyone?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:08:00 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

- -----Original Message-----
From: Greg Smith <montecristo@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas


<snip>
>Combined Arms comment.... After an exercise in Norway, during the after
>action briefings, the Norwegian Commander asked how come he couldn't get
>any air support.  He had heard aircraft over the Marine Corps' area the
>whole time, but couldn't get any support himself.  He wanted to know
>why!  Turns out that the airpower that was over the Marines was Marine
>Air, owned by the Marine Commander on the ground.  Nothing like owning
>your own aircover.

<snip>
>Greg Smith
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Just a quick story, maybe amusing, maybe not, but very thought provoking. A
co-worker and I were talking about this thread in work today. He is a
retired National Guard Enigineer. At any rate, he tells me, a number of
years ago he was in a debreifing following a simulation on an action taking
place in Germany, the situation, as he explained it, was that the Battalion
to which he belonged was involved in a holding action against a Soviet
advance. The CO was using a map of Germany to point out the various manuvers
and actions during the simulation, in part to explain it to several NATO
observers who were there. The CO went through various points, this unit
moved here and dug in, this unit moved there, the enemy moved here, etc.
When he'd finished and just befor the breifing broke up, one of the NATO
observers, a German officer, stepped up and asked the CO to explain why he
left a mountain pass undefended, since it presented a prime oppertunity for
the Soviet forces to flank the "Freindlies". The CO very calmly explained
that the pass was a "non-concideration". It seems that at the start of the
exercised he'd ordered his artillary to drop a couple of "freindly" nukes on
the mouth of the pass, eleminating it as a concideration. Turned out that
the observer was from a small hamlet that sat at the mouth of the pass! His
comment was , to paraphrase, "What's so "friendly" about tactical nukes?"

The point of this (I guess) is that what's "friendly" to some might not be
to some of our "friends".  Not sure how relevent this is but it was a neat
story.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:48:55 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying (Not so Long) and SEXY, SEXY B-52's

At 10:52 pm 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> Deadeye flies B-52s RT.  It's hard to go adventuring with a B-52.  
>
>Actually it was easy to go adventuring with a B-52.   More to say the
>adventure came to you.  And the chicks loved it because it is such a
>sexy, hi tech jet and SOOOoo manueverable.  
>
>But it does have the capability to blast a grid 300' by 3000' completely
>clear of fleshy pink bodies and other stuff, which makes it its own form
>of "sexy."  
>
>And If I'd hung around I could have gotten a date with Kelly Flynn.

	What, you mean your turn hadn't come up yet? Or wait, you were
commissioned AND weren't married ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:39:48 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

At 01:24 pm 2/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Yeah, I'm doing 3D pencil cubes right now, but the problem is
that with
>no rotation some systems mask others.  There is also no easy way
to
>check distances.
>
>A nice nav computer program will solve all of this, but my intent had
>simply been to build the cube in lightwave and turn it into a gif
>animation rotating. 
>
>The map would include stars, major trade routes, bases and xyz coords.
>
>As for where I am now, I just draw an isometric cube, put little circles
>in and ring them with star systems.  Still primitive and it is unweildy
>to try to visualize surrounding sectors.  

	CHVIEW! CHVIEW! CHVIEW!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:48:33 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: chair dogs

At 09:19 pm 2/11/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>         And that'll happen only after we all agree how jump drive works
>> ... which means agreeing with me, because I have the right answer
>> (duck).
>Why do we have to agree on how something works? 
>It can work this way for you, this way for me, the handwave rules of MT
>CT and SOM were all I ever needed to explain the general concept to my
>players!
>Everybody should be able to do what he likes. We dont need to
create
>new canon by postulating one true aswer, or do we?

	It was a joke ... indicating something quite unlikely to occur
...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:23:58 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: DISREGARD

Please ignore the last message I sent to the list.  It was posted by
accident and the message was completely inaccurate and false.  Its contents
were utterly without basis in reality, and I urge every list member to
delete it immediately from hir inbox.  Sie who reads it will get the wrong
idea, and I pity hirm.

Be seeing you,

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:27:29 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Government types

SemoFetus wrote:

>the common man and the ruler.  A civil service bureaucracy borders on utopian
>socialism/communism in some ways...

Perhaps a utopian socialism, I dunno; but ISTM a genuniely communist
society in the strict sense would, by definition, have to be an IISS Gov
Type 0 -- No Government.  "Withering away of the state" and all that.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:57:04 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Since Nurenburg...

At 05:31 pm 2/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>BTW, we do train on this in the USN at least.  There's been a lot of
>emphasis on giving guidance and thought to "how would you react in
>such and such situation"  and "what decision would you make." Can you
>fire upon someone in accordance with the ROE and geneva Convention.

	OK, here's something that that piques my curiosity. I've been
led to believe that, "Crimson Tide" to the contrary, there *are
no* regulations authorizing a subordinate officer to relieve his
superior of command. Does the training cover the specific
situation described in the movie? Or similar situations?

<Interrupt>
For those who haven't seen the movie, a US strategic nuclear
submarine receives orders to launch its missiles at a certain
point in the future. Later on, the countermanding order is sent,
but due to some malfunction, isn't fully received. The commanding
officer determines to go ahead with the launch. The executive
officer is convinced the garbled transmission was the cancel
order, and wants to request clarification. When the CO refuses to
do so, the XO, quoting (apparently) non-existent regulations,
attempts to relieve him of command. What follows is, basically, a
mutiny, with some crewmembers siding with the CO, some with the
XO. For the rest, you'll have to watch the movie.
</Interrupt>

	So, looking at Star Trek, which apparently DOES have regulations
or General Orders stating when a subordinate not only may but
MUST relieve a superior, and modern US military regulations which
do not:

	- Would the IN have such regulations? How about IISS, or IA?
Likewise other races?
	- Under what conditions would it be legal?
	- How likely would it be to succeed?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:30:32 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

At 10:35 pm 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>"Tommy.")  That is why I get disturbed by hotdogs and careless F-15

	I'd be careful throwing words like this around. I personally
knew the F15 flight lead (Capt Eric "Jarhead" Wickson) from my
first assignment. "Careless" was not a word to apply to him.
Words I would use are "sharp," "motivated," "dedicated," and
"professional."  Also "crazy"--he was among the first people into
Panama, as an Air Liaison Officer with the Airborne. That's
right, an Air Force pilot whose primary job was to run around
with the hairy dirty Army guys on the ground, right up where the
bad guys are shooting... His stories about jumping out of a C130,
at midnight and 500 feet, with tracers flying around, were hair
raising. Did you know the Army apparently doesn't issue reserve
parachutes when you're jumping at 500 feet?

	While I've not been privy to any of the formal investigations, I
understand he did in fact direct his wingman to visually identify
the bogeys. Only after his wingman positively confirmed that the
targets were Soviet-built Hinds did he give the fire order.

	Despite apparent attempts to blame it all on the AWACS
controllers, or on the pilots, there were many people whose
failure caused the tragedy. Any one of them could have prevented
it. The helicopters hadn't filed a flight plan with the folks
responsible for all the flying, so the flight wasn't on the daily
Air Tasking Order (which the AWACS could have referenced). The
helicopters didn't have their IFF on. The AWACS crew didn't
properly track the helicopters. The wingman made a false
identification. The flight lead didn't personally double-check
the identification...

	ObTrav: how DO you confirm targets in the Traveller environment?
Visual identification is not normally possible--to get close
enough to confirm it's a bad guy, you'd be close enough for his
blind, crippled Shi-Tzu to blow you away. Maybe you can do
something with neutrino sensors, densitometers, and imaging
sensors to come up with some kind of general characterization,
but ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:17:44 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Congratulations and the Next Step

Well done, everyone!  That was, I belive, a very rewarding exercise in
reorientating the TML constituency towards full acculturation.  It is a
pity, of course, that we won't be able to induce the necessary gene therapy
via email, now that a certain party leaked news of that technology.  An
alternative will be found, I am confident.

Not only have we alienated large portions of the readership from two major
local religions, but initial psionic polls indicate a highly positive
degree of collateral damage to the semiotic structures of organized and
entrenched religion as a whole.  Congratulations to the whole team!  Bravo!
Bravo!

For our next phase, I'd like to suggest undermining tolerance levels for
gendered and gender-neutral pronoun usage in the locally dominant
vernacular.  M. "Reed" and M. "TNE", you'd better assume some fresh
personae: I'd suggest we reactivate the "Leroy" cover, and as for the other
foil, I notice that Roderick has been silent lately.  Why don't we hijack
his account and flame in his name?  I'm sure we can draw even larger
numbers of bystanders in this time.

I'll start of with one of my standard pompously negligible posts and drop
in a couple experimental pronouns -- "as we all know, Norris needed an
heir, but sie hadn't come to terms hir feelings yet, which led hirm to
avoid marriage ..."  M. "Semo", if you'd be so good as to perkily inquire
again as to what I meant, and the others then jump in, I'm sure we can have
the entire TML constituency gagging and peeved in no time.  (This time, we
should still avoid introducing references to the U.S. Marines' known
proclivities for child molestation too -- it would  confuse the issue.
Agreed?)  Then I'll jump in with some incoherent but supposedly humorous
reaction to highlight how much the alleged combatants are overreacting and
what menaces they are to the world at large.

This is so much _quieter_ than the old-fashioned electro-chemical aversion
therapy, don't you agree?  No screaming, no upset neighbors.  And cleaner,
too. I hated it when they'd lose bowel control in the middle of therapy.

But we have to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that they don't find out what we're up
to.  Once word of the project gets out to the TML public, we're through.

M. Schwarz
Manipulation Coordinator

"You'll have changed your attitude towards {parthenogenesis, one-world
government, egalitarianism} before we're through with this planet; trust
me."
     -- from _The Lonely Planet Sayat-Galanglic-Vilani Phrasebook_

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #147
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 148



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: GURPS Traveller
Imperial Military
Short Trade and Freight notes
Reckless Endangerment
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Annoying Language (long)
Re:  Stellar Maps
Re: Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!
Re: Off Topic & CE/BCE and aquestion on something completely different
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: Answers WAS Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:19:56 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

>I'll start of with one of my standard pompously negligible posts and drop
>in a couple experimental pronouns -- "as we all know, Norris needed an
>heir, but sie hadn't come to terms hir feelings yet, which led hirm to
>avoid marriage ..."  M. "Semo", if you'd be so good as to perkily inquire
>again as to what I meant, and the others then jump in, I'm sure we can have
>the entire TML constituency gagging and peeved in no time. 

I will never, ever again ask any questions after yesterday.  I will only make
statements and demands.

for example "Tell me now what <unknown word, abbreviation, symbol> means,
pitiful wretch!"

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 00:12:10 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On 02/11/98 at 01:34 PM,  Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> said:

>> You know, I liked TNE's rules (as much as I like *any* rules ;-), but not
>> the RC setting.  That setting just didn't hit me as uplifting, pulling
>> worlds out of the darkness.  It *felt* cold and vicious to me. It didn't
>> *have* to be that way, but that's the way it felt.

>Just wondering. Why does a setting have to be uplifting, pulling worlds
>out of the darkness? 

Doesn't have to by Tommy, but that's the spin that many RCESophiles put on
the situation. I'm just on the other side.

>I think that the RC setting was great because it gave
>the players a different enemy, their own government (if you as a GM played
>on it) when they saw the way the RC tended to act. Great setting for
>political drama IMHO.

And it looks like you are too. ;->  Give me a pocket empire out in the far
Reaches, maybe beyond the Julian Protectorate were we could expand out into
the real frontier away from the RCES, the Viral-Beserkers, and all that
baggage.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:00:45
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Military

There are two important tendencies to consider when looking at the Imperial
Military.

The first is the idea of noble obligation - a lot of Imperial Military
officers are going to be doing a couple of terms becasue they *should*, and
then going back to run their estates, go on hunting trips, take up the
family seat in the Imperial Moot etc. This may also apply to the other
services - I can easily imagine Joe Noble signing up in the IISS, being
"one of the guys" and then getting a swag of paperwork informing him his
Father, Duke Whatsit, has died and he has to get back to Sylea *now* to
take up his duties. All his old IISS drinking buddies then get invites to
his parties, perhaps with a stack of High Passage tickets to get there.

The second is the system of Military Pensions, and what this implies given
the high level of income dispersion in the worlds of the Imperium. Assume
average income on Sylea is Cr 14 000, and the Sylean Credit trades at
parity with the Imperial. Is it worth doing 20 years to get a Cr 4000
pension ? Probably not, because semi-skilled workers will earn more than
that, with no risk of finding out what a Meson Gun does at point-blank. Now
assume you come from some dirtball TL7 planet that has an annual income of
Cr4000, and trades at 10 local credits to one Imperial credit. Given this,
your Imperial pension for the same 20 years service is worth 10 times the
local average earnings.

Combining these two, I see a class-ridden Imperial military - the officer
corps being filled with noble sons and daughters doing their bit for the
Empire, with perhaps a few timeservers who couldnt get a real job, were
blackballed by the family or whatever, and the Other Ranks being primarily
from the poorer worlds of the Imperium, and knowing that the majority of
them are never going to make it into Officers Country.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:22:16
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Short Trade and Freight notes

The problem with the standard Traveller trade system is it doesnt scale -
the price of a displacement ton of "speculative cargo" just doesnt mesh
with what Traveller goods you can fit into a displacement ton.

Anyone who wants more detail, email me. If you are an ace programmer who
can calculate expected net profit for any pair of worlds given the UWPs and
distances, *please* email me :)

Another problem is that a small world - say 5000 people, TL8 - may not have
enough cargo to fill even a Far Trader on any given week.

In short, I dont agree that all worlds should be able to sell any quantity
of goods to a passing trader at any given time. Some goods should also be
date dependant - for example, there may be megatons of froot beans just
after the harvest (days 112-134), but in the low season (days 200-50) froot
beans can only be found frozen.

Goods may also have political limits - I am thinking of COCOM type
restrictions for hi-tech goods and the need for valid political permissions
and/or End User Certificates when buying military goods.

The next point is that as the maximum technology of an area increases,
freight prices will fall, because freight is paid for by Imperial Credits,
and ships are built with local credits.

Imagine a TL11 Far Trader in a TL11 Imperium. It is a state of the art
machine, built only at the most advanced shipyards.

Now imagine the same TL11 Far Trader in a TL15 Imperium. It is being built
in provincial shipyards, who would sell them for less Imperial credits,
which they need to buy TL15 goods. The TL11 trade ships would thus be able
to undercut the TL15 trade ships, because they deliver the same service.
Thus, freight prices in Imperial Credits would be forced down.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:34:11 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Reckless Endangerment

>Subject: Congratulations and the Next Step
...
>foil, I notice that Roderick has been silent lately.  Why don't we hijack
>his account and flame in his name?  I'm sure we can draw even larger
>numbers of bystanders in this time.

 For the gods sake, don't you people ever _learn_? Mr. Elliott is 
dangerous enough to begin with, but the results of unsupervised usage
of his computer hardly bear thinking about. Wasn't last time warning
enough? Stop the madness!

>>(-2524-345) Alleged Virus outbreak at Famille Spofulam Electronic
>>Warfare Division. Escapes by e-mailing itself to the TML hoping
>>to find potential goodlife collaborators. Unexpectedly, upon its
>>arrival it immediately converts the server into a hamster.
>>
>>  The Ministry of Justice investigation is expected to focus
>>on totally unreasonable levels of substance abuse at FS-EWD./

>M. Schwarz
>Manipulation Coordinator

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:42:57
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

At 12:50 AM 12/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:56:20 EST
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>Subject: the Bomb
>
>Daniel Ray Lane said:
>
>> I would not have wanted to be
>>the first on to the beaches of the Japanense mainland.  I would have
>>let the bombs fall.  It is fortunate that there was a rapprochment after
>>the war that allowed us to de-demonize the Japanese.
>
>I have an uncle who had a 1st class ticket to be in the first wave ashore in
>Japan. He had survived several amphib landings, he tells me, and didn't
expect
>to survive that one. I do not blame him for being glad the first bomb was
>dropped. I am still undecided about the second, but hindsight is 20/20, as
>they say. In Truman's shoes, I would probably have made the same decision.
>
>Loren Wiseman

Recently, I found a collection of Harry Truman's unsent letters, and I dont
believe that I have the right to say if he was right or wrong in deciding
to drop the atomic bombs.

OTOH one of my heroes, Tom Uren, does. Tom Uren was in Changi between 1942
and 1944, and was a prisoner of war doing forced labour in a Japanese
factory in 1945. His view was that to drop the bomb was wrong, as neither
Hiroshima or Nagasaki were military targets, and in any case a
demonstration would have had a similar cost/benefit analysis.

Tom Uren, a leader of the Left faction of the Australian Labor Party, was
also a leader in the campaign against Australian involvement in the Vietnam
war.

Bringing this back ObTrav, I think it is quite possible to have an ex-war
hero campaigning against either Imperial involvement in a certain war, or
Imperial tactics (especially in the early "ruthless" period).

Could be good if you have a party of pro-military players to have a major
NPC as a Uren- or Kovacs-type, who despite being an ex-war hero is opposing
war/this war/the conduct of this war.

>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:57:04 -0700
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: Since Nurenburg...

>
>	- Would the IN have such regulations? How about IISS, or IA?

I believe that the Imperium would have conventions on wars, even bad wars,
because of the risk of collateral damage. OTOH Hard Times indicates that
the dont.

The IISS doesnt tend to get in shooting wars, and the Imperial Army will
take it's cues from the Navy.

>Likewise other races?
>	- Under what conditions would it be legal?

One of the ex-US military people may be able to give us a more thorough
answer, but my understanding is that the US Army regulation require the
laws of war to be followed. OTOH the US military tradition of total warfare
(Shenandoah, Mush Morton, free-fire zones etc) trends against this.

The same tension may exist in the Imperium - Andrew Valance's recent post
about the Ine Givar shows up this tension.


>	- How likely would it be to succeed?

Quite likely, if the Imperium has as strong concept of honour as I think it
does. I'm thinking of the song "The Conchie" about a conciencious objector
in a medical corps, who refused orders to go into a minefield to rescue a
wounded soldier.

>- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj

>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:17:44 +0800
>From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
>Subject: Congratulations and the Next Step
>
>Well done, everyone!  That was, I belive, a very rewarding exercise in
>reorientating the TML constituency towards full acculturation.  It is a
>pity, of course, that we won't be able to induce the necessary gene therapy
>via email, now that a certain party leaked news of that technology.  An
>alternative will be found, I am confident.
>

Comrade Kenji, I believe your weakness for the Cult of the Personality is
becoming manifest once again.

>
>For our next phase, I'd like to suggest undermining tolerance levels for
>gendered and gender-neutral pronoun usage in the locally dominant
>vernacular.  M. "Reed" and M. "TNE", you'd better assume some fresh
>personae: I'd suggest we reactivate the "Leroy" cover, and as for the other
>foil, I notice that Roderick has been silent lately.  Why don't we hijack
>his account and flame in his name?  I'm sure we can draw even larger
>numbers of bystanders in this time.

You neglected crossposting the debate to usenet, Comrade.

>
>I'll start of with one of my standard pompously negligible posts and drop
>in a couple experimental pronouns -- "as we all know, Norris needed an
>heir, but sie hadn't come to terms hir feelings yet, which led hirm to
>avoid marriage ..."  M. "Semo", if you'd be so good as to perkily inquire
>again as to what I meant, and the others then jump in, I'm sure we can have
>the entire TML constituency gagging and peeved in no time.  (This time, we
>should still avoid introducing references to the U.S. Marines' known
>proclivities for child molestation too -- it would  confuse the issue.
>Agreed?)  Then I'll jump in with some incoherent but supposedly humorous
>reaction to highlight how much the alleged combatants are overreacting and
>what menaces they are to the world at large.

But hir and sie have been used for years .... ooops, it isnt h-hour yet.

>
>This is so much _quieter_ than the old-fashioned electro-chemical aversion
>therapy, don't you agree?  No screaming, no upset neighbors.  And cleaner,
>too. I hated it when they'd lose bowel control in the middle of therapy.

Therapy ? I thought they were sessions of free form roleplaying. Or S/m. Or
something culturally signifigant like that. I definitly remember it using
smoke machines. And if anyone can remember the last thirty minutes, can
they brief me by email ?

>
>But we have to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that they don't find out what we're up
>to.  Once word of the project gets out to the TML public, we're through.
>
>M. Schwarz
>Manipulation Coordinator

Rotating Co-ordinating, Comrade.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:43:20 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Stephan Aspridis wrote:
> 
> I can only speak for myself, but: Please post it. I am very interested.
> 
Well here goes       (very long, please cut and snip to bare bones for
replies to save space.)

I have been using a revised hex numbering system for my campaigns which
may be of interest.
It is based on the unknown space navigation table as shown in several
of the Traveller Alien Module's and I know it was presented in at least
one other Traveller publications in the past. It groups a 7 across hex
into 6 equal triangular like areas to be used by the referee to plot
star positions as the pcs journey through space.
Taking the concept a little further, I reasoned that if the center hex
was labeled      0,0,0        I should be able to go as far as I wanted
in any direction and know how far it was from the point of origin. I
labeled the first number set as the sector, the second number as the
band , and the third number as the deviation to starboard within the
sector.
To demonstrate:
Start point is 0,0,0 meaning the center.
Band one is composed of 1,1,0 meaning sector 1 (Coreward), band 1, 0
deviation --- 2,1,0 meaning sector 2 (Coreward Trailing), band 1, 0
deviation --- 3,1,0 meaning sector 3 (Rimward, Trailing), band 1, 0
deviation --- 4,1,0 meaning sector 4 (Rimward), etc.,
etc.       	              5,1,0 meaning sector 5 (Rimward Spinward),
etc., etc. and               6,1,0 meaning sector 6 (Coreward Spinward),
etc., etc.
Band 2 is made up of  1,2,0 and 1,2,1 --- 2,2,0 and 2,2,1 --- 3,2,0 and
3,2,1 --- 4,2,0 and 4,2,1 --- 5,2,0 and 5,2,1 --- 6,2,0 and 6,2,1
Band 3 is made up of  1,3,0 - 1,3,1 and 1,3,2 --- 2,3,0 - 2,3,1 and
2,3,2 etc. etc.
Now lets say we use Capital  (2118) Core as the center of our universe.
It becomes 0,0,0. Using the Atlas of the Imperium, Nimluin (2209) Core
becomes 1,9,1, Ispumer (2615) Core becomes 2,5,0, Gurishi (3022) Core
becomes 3,9,0, Skeen (2226) Core becomes 3,9,8 etc.
If a navigator was at Nimluin, Gurishi or Skeen, he would know that he
had travelled a total distance of 9 parsecs away from Core (5 in the
case of Ispumer) and had made a 1, 0 or 8 respectively parsec starboard
deviation from the norm.
Continuing out a long way, Terra (1827) Sol becomes 4,131,3, Regina
(1910) Spinward Marches becomes 5,130,128. Terra is 131 parsecs from
Capital at a 3 parsec starboard deviation ( (3/130x60)+(3x60) or 181.385
degrees).  Regina is 130 parsecs from capital at a 128 parsec starboard
deviation (128/130x60)+(4x60) or 299.076 degrees).
Notice that the deviation number can only total to 1 less than the band
number, the (((sextant number -1) times 60) plus the ((deviation number
divided by band number ) times 60)) will give the degree angle direction
from center, and  the deviation parsec is always at an angle of  the
((band number times 60) + 120) degrees.
Using the s,bbb,ddd number combination we could expand our borders out
to 997,000+ parsecs in any of 6 directions. It should also be able to be
applied to those referees using 3D space adding a fourth number set
indicating plus/minus for up/down direction.
I realize the numbering system is a little more cumbersome than our
present system, growing from 4 to 9 or 13 but it appears to relay more
usable information without remembering the location of 560 sub-sectors
within 35 sectors, or more if you go outside *known* space.
A sector (usable for most campaigns) could be enclosed in an 11x11x11
hex like space and would contain 1365+/- possible star/world locations
(as compared to 1280 presently) and these could be joined much the same
as we do now. (calculated as 91 locations at 0 plane times 15 or 5x3 to
create the up/down space). 
Since Sol is part of the MW galaxy and it is supposed to be of the
spiral type, we may not have to go to great extremes in the up/down
definitions. Does anyone know what the depth in parsecs is of our
galaxy?
This is probably full of holes, but have at it guys.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:22:03 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 12:08 AM 12/02/98 -0500, Mike Peters wrote:

>Just a quick story, maybe amusing, maybe not, but very thought provoking. A
>co-worker and I were talking about this thread in work today. He is a
>retired National Guard Enigineer. At any rate, he tells me, a number of
>years ago he was in a debreifing following a simulation on an action taking
>place in Germany, the situation, as he explained it, was that the Battalion
>to which he belonged was involved in a holding action against a Soviet
>advance. The CO was using a map of Germany to point out the various manuvers
>and actions during the simulation, in part to explain it to several NATO
>observers who were there. The CO went through various points, this unit
>moved here and dug in, this unit moved there, the enemy moved here, etc.
>When he'd finished and just befor the breifing broke up, one of the NATO
>observers, a German officer, stepped up and asked the CO to explain why he
>left a mountain pass undefended, since it presented a prime oppertunity for
>the Soviet forces to flank the "Freindlies". The CO very calmly explained
>that the pass was a "non-concideration". It seems that at the start of the
>exercised he'd ordered his artillary to drop a couple of "freindly" nukes on
>the mouth of the pass, eleminating it as a concideration. Turned out that
>the observer was from a small hamlet that sat at the mouth of the pass! His
>comment was , to paraphrase, "What's so "friendly" about tactical nukes?"
>
>The point of this (I guess) is that what's "friendly" to some might not be
>to some of our "friends".  Not sure how relevent this is but it was a neat
>story.

Not real bright against the Soviets either, because they'd call this 'use
of weapons of mass destruction', and that'd guarantee them using chemical
weapons and nukes right back.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 03:01:14 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language (long)

John R. Snead wrote:

>"Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net> wrote:
>
>>Common Era, it's used by those who don't want to acknowledge 
>>Christ with the use of A.D. (Anno Domini, Medieval Latin for 
>>"in the year of the Lord") or are afraid to offend those who don't 
>>want to.  B.C.E. is Before the Common Era (B.C.).
>
>Also used by academics all over the world. ...

Most academics are well known for being as inoffensive as 
possible (except occasionally within their own field).  In 
general they especially try not to offend anyone who might 
be able to further their research goals.  This includes (but is 
not limited to) native peoples in the lands pertaining to their
research, politicians (both academic and governmental) 
and money men.

>... This is hardly a "politically
>correct" term, it's been in use for many decades now.

Excuse me?  Did I say anything about "political correctness"?  
Besides, just because a term has been in use for decades 
doesn't make it not a "politically correct" term.

>>FYI, medieval is a term used for the dark ages by those 
>>who don't want people to think they were so bad.  We 
>>have all kinds of terms like this.  Weird, no?
>
>So do you have to work at being this obnoxious or does 
>it come naturally to you? ...

I guess it just comes naturally to me.  It must, because I 
didn't write what I wrote to be obnoxious.

>... I can ignore the jingoistic militarism you recently spouted, but
>the above post *really* annoys me. ...

Jingoistic militarism?  Maybe I should be asking you, 
"Do you have to work at being this obnoxious or does 
it just come naturally to YOU?"  What are you so pissed 
about?  If you were so upset with my comments on 
patriotism (not an exclusive US commodity BTW), then 
you should have responded to them.

Before I responded to your inflammatory statement, I 
needed to be sure of what you meant.  Since you 
assigned the subject of "Annoying Language" we
shall take a look at yours.

Jingoism (n.):  Extreme nationalism marked especially
                         by a belligerent foreign policy.
Extreme (adj.):  Very great; intense/or/Drastic; severe.
Nationalism (n.):  Aspirations for national independence.
Belligerent (adj):  Eager to fight; aggressively hostile.
Militarism (n.):  Glorification of the ideals of a 
                          professional military class.
Ideals (n. pl.):  The standards of perfection or excellence.
- -ism (suff.):  Doctrine; theory; system of principles.
- -ist (suff.):  An adherent or advocate of an -ism.
- -ic (suff.):  Of, relating to, or characterized by.


That means that "jingoistic militarism" means "intense 
aspirations for national independence marked especially 
by an aggressively hostile foreign policy characterized by 
the glorification of the standards of perfection or 
excellence of a professional military class".  Hmm, just 
as I thought, a semantically null statement.  Therefore it's 
only intent could be to be inflammatory.

So, tell me, when did I ever advocate violence, hostility 
or aggression?  My words on patriotism were intense.  
They came from the heart. They dealt (indirectly) with 
a desire for national independence.  If you don't like 
that, you can take a flying leap.  And if I want to glorify 
the standards of perfection and excellence of a 
professional military class, that is, or at least can be, 
part and parcel of what role playing is all about.

>... You are awfully damn dismissive of
>anyone who does not agree with you. ...

When did I dismiss anyone?  Weather they agree with 
me or not?  Didn't you read my statement that IMO 
that it is out of the differences in opinion that great 
insights are born?  It sounds to me like perhaps you 
are projecting your failings on me.

>... Most of the planet "does not not want
>to acknowledge Christ" ie they are not Christians, live with it.

The acknowledgment of Christ does not make you a 
Christian.  Just as the acknowledgment of Satan 
doesn't make you a Satanist.  Weather I even believe 
in Christ has not been established.  Weather you 
believe in Christ doesn't matter one whit to the topic 
under discussion.

If you know enough about His teachings to be 
offended, then where you spend your eternity is also 
no concern of mine.  Each of us makes our own 
choices and lives (and dies) with the consequences.

Even if no one in the whole world believed in the 
Christ, that does not change the historical fact that a 
man named Iosua (Jesus) was born in the Roman 
province of Judea in or about the year 1 A.D.(C.E.).  
Or the fact that His teachings changed or at least 
impacted the history of large portions of the world.

Weather you or anyone else believes that He was 
The Son of The Singular All Powerful Deity or not 
does not change the fact that He (the man) died in 
Jerusalem in or about the year 32 A.D.(C.E).  And 
finally, weather you or anyone else in the world 
believes He rose from the dead or not does not 
alter his historical significance.

Because of the nature of this list, I have, in the 
past, always used the B.C.(B.C.E.) or A.D.(C.E.) 
notation in my few posts with a dated reference 
or no notation at all for dates A.D.(C.E).

>As for the "dark ages" comment, it is used because the idea of the dark
>ages was invented by folks from later eras who wanted to make themselves
>look good.  Actually, the "dark ages" was one of the eras of greatest
>technical progress in the west.  They just didn't happen to put up lots of
>neoclassic buildings.  No modern scholars use the term "dark ages" any
>more, nor have they for most of this century.

I left the last paragraph because I'm out of 
time, but I'll be back on this.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:58:55 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re:  Stellar Maps

3D starmaps are all well, and good...but I'm waiting for some kind soul to
come up with a workable method of displaying 5-dimensional maps.  Then I can
get my proposed 'Traveller:  Legion of Dynamic Discord vs Spawn of
Shub-Niggurath and the Sylean Illuminati' campaign off of the ground.

sorry....Kenji's starting to have an effect on me (and I salute him for it)


Slainte,

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

"if it's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess..."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:17:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!

Bruce Johnson writes:
>On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
>> Here's a library data entry I made up some years ago about that subject:
>> 
>> LAST WILL:  Colloquial  naval  name for a special closed data-pack
>> used to keep secret orders,  passwords,  call-codes, astrogational 
> 
>SNIP
> 
>>Pressing the erase button will erase all data bit by bit. Pressing 
>>the  retain  button will reset a 12-hour timer.  Should the retain 
>>button  not  be pressed again before the timer runs out,  the data 
>>will be erased. 
> 
>I'd modify that only by taking off the 'retain' button, and by making the
>'erase' button set off the thermite charge lining the case.
>ffffwwwwhhooooosh! no more codebook.
> 
>A 12 hour 'retain' setting is bad if your ship's been captured...who's to
>stop the capturing party from pressing it.

Nothing. It's a compromise between security and utility. As it is, the
captain has to press the retain button every 8 hours, with a four hour
grace period in case of unforseen distractions. The primary defense
is the erase button. The career of any officer who allows the Last Will
to fall into the hands of the enemy is ruined forever and he is going
to be lucky to avoid spacing. Even so, the information in the Last Will
will also be time-sensitive, encrypted, and contain logic bombs. Just
as a signal book used to contain the codes for the next few months only.
But remember that a captain who loses the information in the Last Will
will be crippled in his operations. About the only thing he can do is
to return to base. So there should be some safeguards against accidental
erasure. The Last Will would be kept somewhere not-obvious and propably
under lock (Or would it? That would make it difficult for a junior
officer to get at it and erase it...). If you think up to 12 hours is too
long to give a boarding party, you could make it 6 hours, requiring the
button to be pressed by the officer on watch every four hours instead, but
that means that the LW has to circulate between all the senior officers of
the ship which has its own security problems.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:58:31 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Off Topic & CE/BCE and aquestion on something completely different

Michael D. Peters wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SemoFetus@aol.com <SemoFetus@aol.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 2:55 AM
> Subject: Off Topic & CE/BCE
> 
> >Sorry for inadvertently starting the whole thread, and thank you for paying
> >attention if you got this far.
> >
> >Semo
> 
> Semo,
> 
> Unfortunately I just see this as the first "garbage" war of '98. In about 2
> years on this List I've seen it degenerate to this type of thing abot twice
> a year. The only difference this time is that LeRoy isn't involved, (unless
> he's using an alias). I saw it coming when my mail jumped from 80 to 150 and
> today reached about 250 messages, counting the "normal" non-Traveller
> messages I recieve. At any rate, while I agree with your posts and you
> sentiments, I don't really expect that it will help, it usually takes a
> couple of weeks for the most rabid on both sides to burn themselves out and
> the list to spin back to normal. Also, don't feel that it was your fault! If
> it hadn't been your question it would have been something else, it just
> happens!
> 
> That said, I have a question that is totally off of the subject of CE, PC,
> etc., so it'll probably go completely unnoticed, but I'll ask anyway.
> 
> I'm thinking along the lines of a cruise ship and one of the Features of the
> cruise is the experience of refueling in a gas giant atmosphere. Ok, what my
> question is, is what are the effects of a high gee world, say Saturn, or
> Jupiter on the passengers of the ship? I've always, before thought of it
> like a roller coaster ride with the crew heavily strapped into their seats
> and the ship buffeted about, but this won't do for this scenario. So I want
> to put in some extra grav compensation, but TL constraints say that 3 gee is
> the limit ( for a M:0 campaign setting). Any of the real Brains out there
> have any thoughts on what the ride would be like?
> 
> Mike Peters
> Letterworks@Comten.com
I read it Mike but I don't know the answer, sorry.
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:29:23 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> Manipulation Coordinator
> 
> "You'll have changed your attitude towards {parthenogenesis, one-world
> government, egalitarianism} before we're through with this planet; trust
> me."
>      -- from _The Lonely Planet Sayat-Galanglic-Vilani Phrasebook_

AHA! a manipulator. I knew it.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:05:36 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Answers WAS Questions

"Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net> wrote:

>Dom wrote:
>>Acceleration with thruster plates peaks at 6G -...
>
>Where did you get that?  I know in CT the max accelleration was 6 G, but
>that was explained as the max. acceleration tolerable by humans for extended
>periods of time.  With T4 it's possible to have any accelleration up to the
>boat./ship being just drives power plant and fuel.

QSDS - maximum acceleration is 6G - p108 T4

SSDS and FFS2 don't appear to have limits on the acceleration, but I've
only just started to use them so I missed that one. Mea Culpa...

Oh for a T4 High Guard....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #148
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 149



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)
The Conchie
Re: Starship economics
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: Alcohol proof
Re: Nasty troops
Re: Human Race Homeworlds
Passenger traffic levels
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Patriotism
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Starship economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:24:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>   It would seem to me that the best way for the zhos to insure the Imperium
>won't expand their way (or to keep them contained) would be to go all the way
>to the Claw.   That would have relatively ensured protection as the Claw
>protected the Domain of Deneb/Regency against Virus. Of course then the Zhos
>would have a longer and exposed flank to the Aslan and Vargr.  I don't know.
>If I was a bigwig in the Consulate, I'd want a drive to the Claw.

Have a look at the map of known space c1105 (Mike Peters did a great one as
a JPG IIRC) and the *shape* of the Consulate and the Vargr etc.

Bear in mind the Consulate has stable borders (and has done for a long time).

Expanding to the Claw means (1) leaving a large flank exposed to the Vargr
or (2) going through the Vargr, neither of which seems to make much sense.
The Frontier Wars were a limited action to stop/slow the imperium down.

>   Instead they only made (relatively) small stabs confined to pretty much the
>SM. Fighting Ships says that the Imperium didn't even have a BatRon of
>Plankwells (it was in Corridor) and they'd gone to the "elastic defense"
>posture instead of the "crust."  Lacking most CT items, can anyone tell me
>what exactly the Zhos goals were and how the 5FW progressed?

Ultimately to dissuade the Imperium from being expansionist in their
direction. The Spinward Marches campaign details the FFW IIRC. But I
haven't got it to hand at the moment.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:00:04
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: The Conchie

Damn damn damn damn.

The song was about a guy who refused orders *not* to go into the minefield
to rescue the soldier.

Sorry for the confusion.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:07:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

David P. Summers writes:

>>REGULAR PASSENGER LINER OR FREIGHTER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35
>>jumps per year):
> 
>Do these costs include amortizatio of the cost of building the ship?

Yes, it includes the standard bank payments.
              
>>           Steerage    Low    Economy    Mid     High    1 dT of  1 dT per
>>           Passage   Passage  Passage  Passage  Passage  freight   parsec*
>>Jump-1:     1,200     1,400    2,800    4,800    6,200      840      840
>>Jump-2:     1,500     1,800    3,800    6,600    8,400    1,170      585
>>Jump-3:     2,100     2,200    5,100    9,000   11,400    1,660      555
>>Jump-4:                                13,400             2,400      600
>>Jump-5:                                19,800             3,660      735
>>Jump-6:                                35,000             6,370    1,065
>> 
>>(The blank spots in the table I haven't taken the time to calculate yet).
>> 
>>*Assuming the route is an exact multiple of the jump rating.
> 
>So to put it in terms of what would be charged, adding a 5% profit,

The figures already include a 6.25% profit on the owner's investment.
Where it deviates from canon is in the life support costs (lower) and in
including some non-standard insurance payments, which makes the ticket
prices a bit too low and the freight charges a bit too high. They also
use QSDS 1.5 designs and prices; I don't know how much difference FF&S2
makes to the cost and cargo space of ships.

>you would have (for one jump shipments, presumably multiple jumps
>would just add in the component jumps).....

Right, assuming there are appropiately spaced intermediate systems.

>Distance    Cost
>Jump-1       880
>Jump-2      1500
>Jump-3      2080
>Jump-4      2710
>Jump-5      3480
>Jump-6      4600
> 
>Right?

Jump-5 would be a jump-3 (1,660) plus a jump-2 (1,170) = 2,830 (assuming
the freight is not time-critical). Jump-6 would be two jumps-3 = 3,320.
 
>Yeah, I have always assumed there are cargo ships the size of Imperial
>Dreadnaughts 

Me too. At the moment I assume that 99% of all shipping is by such
"super-freighters" and that every ship we've ever seen described in
Traveller publications (up to and including the 5000 T Hercules
freighter) is part of the remaining 1% "luxury trade".


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:47:26 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

> Not only have we alienated large portions of the readership from two major
> local religions, but initial psionic polls indicate a highly positive
> degree of collateral damage to the semiotic structures of organized and
> entrenched religion as a whole.  Congratulations to the whole team!  Bravo!
> Bravo!


You haven't alienated me, and I am a christian.  Personally, I could
care less what other people choose to believe in.  That's their
business.  I'd much rather concentrate on having a good time playing
Traveller.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:26:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Alcohol proof

Stephen Johnson writes:

>    At what proof is a distilate going to be liable to ignite?

According to a character in a Dick Francis novel (_Proof_) alcohol ignites
at a percentage of 50+. This is supposedly the origin of the term "proof".
At 100 proof you can prove the fluid contains alcohol by setting it afire.

>Will it just
>burn or is it gonna be an explosive (ie. very fast combustion) burn?

Sorry, the above exhausts my knowledge on the subject. ;-)

>    More to the point how in the heck would you use a high proof distilate to
>make something like a fuel air bomb?

Personally I'd allow them a good chance of making Molotails, but give them
an even better chance of messing up if they tried anything more fancy than
that. Even if such things as fluid air bombs and poor man's napalm is
_possible_ with kitchen chemistry, imagine the fun you can have with an
industrial accident involving such stuff! ]:->

>  Any other ideas for the use of distilling and such for purposes of warfare?

Flamethrowers? Hook a steam engine driven pump to a supply of flammable
liquid and hose down your opponents. Great fun when the fuel tank is
accidentally set on fire.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:38:08 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nasty troops

deadeye@ebicom.net writes:

>Actually the Ghurkas are pretty much the all time nail eaters.
>Royal Marines are reputed to be just as good if not better than the
>average US Marine.

Elite troops is an area where small countries have a chance to compete.
I'm told that the Danish "Frogman Corps" is well thought of even by
the US and UK elite service. I've no idea how much of that is patriotic
hyperbole.
 
>I sort of see the Aslan as the Imperiums ghurkhas, but I'm sure there
>are more

I have a planet called Megaara in Menorial Subsector (just rimward of
Five Sisters) inspired by Pyrrus in the _Deathworld_ trilogy by Harry
Harrison. A sort of toned-down Dorsai, the inhabitants earn much of their
off-world currency by serving as mercenaries. They are bad dudes and not
suitable for PCs, but they make dandy antagonists. The character
generation tables allow them to get about 50% more skills than ordinary
characters (But their social lives suck :-).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:47:32 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Human Race Homeworlds

>Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:03:35 EST
>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Subject: Human Race Homeworlds

>I am compiling a list of human races the majors, of course, plus some minors)
>and I want to show their homeworlds as well. Any information that someone can
>point to would be helpful. Or suggestions for additions.

>Marc Miller

>World	Race	UWP		
>Terra	Solomani			
>Vland	Vilani			
>Zhdant	Zhodani			
>Sylea	Sylean			
>	Azhanti			
>	Fiorin			
>	Geonee			
>	Acheron			
>	Suerrat 			
>	Illurian			
>	Luriani			

I've been working on the Spinward Marches in M:0 and I've used the Luriani
as the first settlers on Algine.

Algine (2308 X766876-3 523 M9 VI)
Algine is the most unusual pre-Imperial settlement in that it has received
two distinct waves of settlers. The first was a group of Luriani fleeing the
Vilani Consolidation Wars; the second was a group of Solomani exiles from
the Iwahfauh sector who arrived in -1000. The resulting fusion has produced
a rich and unique culture.

The Luriani were the first Human settlers to reach the Spinward Marches.
They have their origins in the final stages of the Vilani drive on the
Luriani homeworld. When it became plain to the Luriani that defeat was
inevitable, their leaders resolved to attempt to ensure the race's survival
deep in uncharted space. Shortly before the final Vilani assault on the
Luriani homeworld, an evacuation fleet was organised and dispatched in -4514.
The fleet travelled from the Luriani homeworld in the Fornast sector, via a
circuitous route that took it through Antares, Lishun Meshan and Windhorn
sectors (there are records of a clash here with Vilani ships in -4509) and
then on into the Lurgaash in -4507. The fleet finally came to rest at Algine
in approximately -4500.

Fearing Vilani pursuit, the Luriani chose to establish a hidden settlement in
the equatorial rainforests. While this deception was successful, it was only
achieved at the cost of abandoning their advanced technology. Algine reverted
to tech level 1 and advanced little for another 3500 years. Over this period,
the settlers gradually forgot exactly how they had arrived, but they retained
a memory of their flight from an enemy and remained fearful of doom from the
skies. Eventually someone did come from the skies, but it was not to be the
Vilani seeking retribution.

During the Interstellar Wars, numerous Terran settlements were established
far beyond the Confederation's borders. Some of these were established in
what was to become the Iwahfauh sector. With the onset of the Long Night
these worlds were cut off from Terra and were gradually absorbed much Aslan
culture and eventually became part of the Hierate. In -1023 one such Human
world was conquered by the Khaukheairl clan and incorporated into the
Hierate. One Human regiment (the 7th Norgal Infantry) fought with such honour
and valour that the Khaukheairl resolved to allow them to retain their
independence. The regiment and their families were allowed to cross the Great
Rift and establish new land holdings. In -1004 the Aslan convoy transporting
them arrived in the sector and conducted a survey to find a suitable world.
Finally in -1000, the regiment elected to settle on Algine.

Since their initial settlement the Luriani had fragmented into numerous
tribes and by -1000 had achieved tech level 2. Their culture was still based
around the traditional Luriani precepts of honour and loyalty. The Luriani
warrior class had been kept alive by tribal raiding. To the Norgal Infantry,
lacking sufficient numbers to colonise an uninhabited world (they numbered
less than 500 families), Algine offered a culture much like their own and
their best chance for survival. With their superior technology the Norgal
were quickly able to establish dominance over the Luriani. The Norgal's
dominance was to be short lived, within four generations their technology
had failed and their dominion had come to an end. However in that brief time
they were to have a profound influence on Algine.

With the coming of the Norgal, Algine was united under a single world
government. Unlike the Itzin fleet on Darrian, the Norgal attempted to use
their technology to dominate the Luriani. However they lacked the depth of
technical knowledge to maintain their advantage for any length of time.
Within 120 years of the Norgal's arrival, the Luriani revolted against these
new overlords. This period is referred to locally as the Great Rebellion. It
lasted for 50 years and left no clear winner. The Norgal were unable to
retain control of the entire world, but the Luriani were unable to unite and
totally overthrow them. By -800 Algine had become a balkanised world. Most
nations were dominated by the Luriani culture, evolutions of the older
pre-Norgal tribes; but in some locations the former Norgal aristocracy
managed to survive; either by force of arms or by reaching an agreement with
the local Luriani. From this time the history of Algine has been dominated by
competition between these nations.

When the Imperial colonisation of the sector began in 60, Algine had evolved
two very distinct cultures. The older Luriani culture still remains,
dominating most of the world's nations. The old Norgal aristocratic culture
also survived, but in a much modified form, having absorbed much of the
Luriani culture.

The Luriani still retain much of their traditional culture (in many ways the
Luriani on Algine are closer to the traditional pre-Vilani Luriani culture
than the Luriani in Fornast), but are also influence by Solomani and Aslan
culture (via the Norgal). The basic Luriani code of honour and hospitality
is still adhered to, fallen enemies are respected. However they have now
embraced a much more Solomani attitude towards technology and the duelling
code is clearly Aslan inspired. To a Luriani, honour comes not from triumph
but from heroic efforts, their mythology is replete with heroic failure in
the face of overwhelming odds. The Luriani still retain the traditional
warrior class. When a Luriani reaches the age of 17 they are required to
serve three months as a warrior; most then move on to other careers. However
some find the "warrior's path" to their liking and chose to enter the warrior
class. These warriors form the basis of the Luriani military.

The Norgal on the other hand, have been far more influenced by the majority
Luriani culture. At the time of their arrival, the Norgal had absorbed much
Aslan culture (their sense of honour, gender differentiation, duelling code
etc.). However much of their old Terran culture still remained. Over time,
intermarriage has essentially erased the Norgal as a distinct biological
grouping, but they remain as a cultural division. The Norgal are
distinguished mainly by their Aslan derived gender differentiation, their
Solomani derived language and their strictly stratified social order. Upper
class Norgal males are exclusively warriors; and upper class Norgal females
are exclusively concerned with government and administration. Both hold to
the Norgal code of honour. Unlike the Luriani, the Norgal code of honour
holds triumph over effort, and thus is less flexible; an insulted Luriani
warrior can lose a duel with no loss of prestige provided they fought
bravely, a losing Norgal will always lose prestige. The Norgal culture is
very conservative, highly stratified, and generally quite oppressive. Lower
class Norgal are descended from the Luriani who remained under Norgal control
after the Great Rebellion. They have little or no say in their government,
though they do not have to adhere to the Norgal code of honour.

Linguistically Algine is truly fascinating. There are two major language
families present (the Luriani and Solomani). The Solomani family has
branched into at least twelve distinct languages whereas the Luriani family
has at least nine sub families which have given rise to several hundred
distinct languages. All Algine languages are a linguist's delight (or
nightmare) being a mix of Luriani, Solomani and Aslan influences.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:49:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Passenger traffic levels

I hope this will prove of use to some of you. Comments eagerly awaited.


ESTIMATING STARSHIP PASSENGER TRAFFIC

The following calculations are based on the assumption that it is possible to
get a mid passage on a regular passenger starship for Crimp5,000. This is a
price I've arrived at after considerable calculations as a reasonable one for
a jump-1 fare (A jump-2 fare should cost 6,500, a jump-3 9,000, and a jump-4
13,500). They are also based on the assumption that the average yearly income
for a citizen is Cr10,000 (after taxes).

A round trip starship ticket costs Cr10,000, about a full year's income. At
that cost most people will at most make one off-world trip in a lifetime.
Propably a good part will not even do that. Just how many will depend, to a
large extent, on the cultural attitude to travel. I suggest that the number of
people per year that takes an off-world trip from a planet should be set to 1D
time 0.1% of the total population. In other words, if the die roll is 3, each
year 0.3% of the population takes an offworld trip. The die roll and the per-
centage was chosen with no real reason except that it sounds reasonable to me.

Example: A planet with a population of 30 million people. Die roll of 4. Each
year 4 * 0.001 * 30,000,000 = 120,000 people takes a trip. 

The less the local currency is worth, the less people can afford a starship
trip. So multiply the number above with the value of the local credit.

Example: Local credit is worth 0.6 Crimp. The number of passengers per year
in the example above would become 0.6 * 120,000 = 72,000.

Now it is time for a reality check. Ordinarily one would expect Class A star-
ports to have lots of traffic and Class E starports to have very little. To
some extent this has already been accounted for, since starport type usually
affects the value of the local currency, but there will still be cases where
the number of passengers and the starport class does not fit well together.
You will have to either a) adjust the starport class to the traffic, b) adjust
the traffic to the starport class, or c) find some creative explanation.

To figure out where the passengers go, find the starport type for the world and
for each of its neighbors. Consult the jump routes table. Four columns are
provided, corresponding to jump distances one through four. For each neighbor
determine the distance between the two worlds, and their starports. At the
intersection of the distance column and the world pair row, a number is stated.
If the one die roll is less than or equal to the number, a regular passenger
route between the two worlds exist. Note down the number you rolled; this
indicates the relative size of the route. (For those who recognize the table
from CT's Book 3, this is the reason for reversing the figures; the more
likely a connection, the bigger its relative size _may_ be).

Example: Checking for a route between two Class A starports two parsecs from
each other a 4 is rolled; there is a route between the two ports with a
relative size of 4. Checking for one between two Class C starports two
parsecs from each other another 4 is rolled; there is no regular route
between the two ports.

JUMP ROUTES

World	---------Jump Distance---------
pair	Jump-1	Jump-2	Jump-3	Jump-4
A-A	    6 	    5	    3       2
A-B	    6	    4	    3	    2
A-C	    6	    3	    1	    -
A-D	    6	    2	    -	    -
A-E	    5	    -	    -	    -
B-B	    6	    4	    3	    1
B-C	    5	    3	    1	    -
B-D	    4	    1	    -	    -
B-E	    3	    -	    -	    -
C-C	    4	    1	    -	    -
C-D	    3	    -	    -	    -
C-E	    3	    -	    -	    -
D-D	    3	    -	    -	    -
D-E	    2	    -	    -	    -
E-E	    1	    -	    -	    -

Before going on, reality check the figures again. If you get an unlikely
result, like a route sending hundreds of thousand of passengers to a neigh-
boring low-tech, low-population world, or a high-tech, high-population world
with a Class E starport generating hundreds of thousands of passengers with
no place to go, you should first try to think up an explanation for the
unlikely result (passengers to a low-tech planet may for instance be
tourists); but if you can't come up with a good explanation then you should
change something to eliminate the oddity.

Sum up the sizes of all the routes from the world and divide the total number
of passengers by it; the result is the basic number of passengers for a size 1
route. For each route multiply its size with the basic amount. This is the
final number of passengers if it is a jump-1 route. For a jump-2 route divide
the result by 1.3; for a jump-3 route divide by 1.8; and for a jump-4 route
divide by 2.7 (This reflects the greater cost of higher jump travel).

Example: Regina in 1117 has a population of 700 million people and its credit
is worth 0.85 Crimp (Imperial credit). If the die roll was 3, Regina would
turn out to have 3*700,000,000*0.85/1,000=1,785,000 locals as outgoing
passengers per year (and the same number of people returning). Regina is
within jump-1 of Ruie (starport type C), Jenghe (C), and Hefry (C), within
jump-2 of Forboldn (E), Yori (B), Extolay (B), Dinom (D) Dinomn (B),
Wypoc (C), and Djinni (X), within jump-3 of Knorbes (D), Roup (B),
Phlume (C), and Rech (D), and within jump-4 of Grant (X), Whanga (E),
Wochiers (E), Algine (X), Yurst (E), 871-438 (E), Tionale (C), and
KKirka (C). Rolling a die for each potential route we get the following
routes (and relative sizes): Ruie (4), Jenghe (2), Hefry (3), Yori (3),
Dinomn (2), and Roup (1). Reality-checking we lower the route to Ruie to 1
(it's outside Imperial borders and has an Amber Zone rating) and get a sum
total of 12. 1,785,000 divided by 12 gives a basic number of 148,750 (Which
must be adjusted for distance).


Neighbor     Die roll  Route   Size	*148,750	Adjusted

Ruie		4	Yes	1	 148,750	148,750
Jenghe		2	Yes	2	 297,500	297,500
Hefry		3	Yes	3	 446,250	446,250

Forboldn	-	No	0	       0 
Yori		3	Yes	3	 446,250	343,270
Extolay		6	No	0	       0
Dinom		5	No 	0	       0
Dinomn		2	Yes	2	 297,500	228,850
Wypoc		6	No	0	       0
Djinni		-	No	0	       0

Knorbes		-	No	0	       0
Roup		1	Yes	1	 148,750	 82,640
Phlume		5	No	0	       0
Rech		-	No	0	       0

(All the rest)	-	No	0	       0


You now have the number of people going FROM the world to neighboring worlds
(and back) each year. But to determine the amount of passenger traffic a
system has one must remember to include all the people from neighboring
worlds that goes TO that system.

Example: The amount of passenger traffic between Regina and Roup is 82,640
Reginans PLUS an as yet undetermined number of Roupians.

Once you have the number of passengers you can decide the number of ships it
will take to carry them. There are two kinds of regular passenger liners. The
most usual one goes from the surface of one world to the surface of the other
world. Since they don't have to scrounge around for passengers the way tramp
ships do, they average one jump every 10 days or 35 jumps per year or 17.5
round trips per year. Each ship can therefore carry 17.5 times its passenger
capacity each year if it is always completely full. But since most ships
average 90% full each trip, you have to multiply by 0.9.

Example: A Type R Subsidized Liner carries 30 passengers. Such a ship will
carry 30*17.5*0.9=472.5 passengers per year. If the passenger traffic between
Regina and Roup were, say, 150,000, you could decide to have 150,000/472.5=
317 Type R liners handling it (More likely you'd want some larger ships for a
route with that many passengers).

The second type of regular passenger liners are those that jump back and forth
between the jump limits of the two worlds (passengers travel to and from the
surface in passenger shuttles). Such a ship can manage a slightly faster turn-
around, doing a jump in 9 days on the average or 20 round trips per year.
However such ships can afford about 30% lower prices, so strictly speaking
you should multiply the passenger stream by 1.4 on such routes. Such ships are
found only on routes where both systems have space stations at the jump limit,
which usually means high-tech worlds with large populations and Class A or B
starports.

Example: A route between two high-tech worlds with Class A starports has been
calculated to have 1,000,000 passengers. Deciding that the traffic is from
jump limit to jump limit, the number is increased to 1,400,000.


LONG-DISTANCE TRAVEL AND OTHER COMPLICATIONS

This system assumes that almost all passenger traffic will consist of people
jumping to a neighboring system and returning some time later. It does not
account for people going farther afield. The number of Reginans, for example,
who can afford to go to Jewell or Aramis or Rhylanor is small, but there are
some who can. Nor does it account for one-way traffic (emigrants).

About 1% of all passengers embark on longer trips. The most usual ships to
cater to this traffic are ships like the Tukera Longliner with an average
passenger capacity around 40.

The best way to establish the number of long-distance passenger ships in a
sector is to calculate the number of passengers from high-population planets
in the sector (ignoring the effect of low- and medium-population planets).
Take 1% of this and divide by 40 to get the number.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:54:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In mail you write:

> Combined Arms comment.... After an exercise in Norway, during the after 
> action briefings, the Norwegian Commander asked how come he couldn't get 
> any air support.  He had heard aircraft over the Marine Corps' area the 
> whole time, but couldn't get any support himself.  He wanted to know 
> why!  Turns out that the airpower that was over the Marines was Marine 
> Air, owned by the Marine Commander on the ground.  Nothing like owning 
> your own aircover.

Which is one of the reasons that a *lot* of folks think it'd be a good
idea to detach the Warthogs from the Air Force and give them to the
Army. The AF just barely tolerates them (if it hadn't been for Desert
Storm, the AF would have replaced them with some hi-tech fighters that
had a "ground attack mode") and serving in them doesn't do your career
much good.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 03:02:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

In mail you write:

> Is that so wrong?  For Muslims, it has nothing to do with not wanting to
> "acknowledge" Christ (p.b.u.h. - who was a full-fledged, virgin-born,
> prophet is his own right, given the power authority to lead the Ummah
> against the unbelievers in the Last War), but rather that we don't think
> that any HUMAN was ever important enough to base a calendaring system
> around.  If this offends, please grant us your official, er, was it
> "indulgence"?  FWIW, aren't all years "years of the Lord?"  ;-)  Has it
> bothered anyone else that there's still a "C" somewhere in it?  Heh.  I
> cannot speak for the heathens, athiests, or agnostics in the crowd.

We are (mostly) "People of the Book"[1] here on the list, so I'd *hope* we
could get along. :-)

However, I could have sworn that the Islamic calendar numbered years
since a major event in Mohammed's life? The Hegira, when he had to flee
Mecca.

> ObTrav: I think it very politically savvy for the Imperium to use it's own
> founding as Year Zero (besides being binarily correct) -- it avoids all the
> petty wrangling inherent in any other choice.  My Roman history is terribly
> dusty and rusted, but didn't they use basically the same rationale for their
> calendar?

The Romans used the years since the founding of Rome. The Byzantines
used the years since Creation (which they dated to about 5505 BC. The
current year in the Byzantine Era is 7506). The Jewish calendar uses
the "Jewish Mundane Era" which is also dated from Creation, but uses a
different starting date than the Byzantines.


> What possessed the Mayans (no apolitical correctness intended ;-)
> to choose the date they did?  Did they sacrifice anyone who disagreed with
> the choice?  Or was that the Aztecs?  After all we now have the "Ministry of
> Calendar Compliance" and who knows, besides espionage, maybe the MCC engages
> in human sacrifice...  Those darn Imperials.

I suspect that the Mayan Long Count was set up for astronomical
reasons. The Tzolkin (their 260 day "ceremonial year") may have been
based on conjunctions of Venus. And the Haab (civil calendar) was
mostly based on the actual year (it was a fixed 365 days, but they
*knew* it was out of synch with the actual length, their "correction"
involved the long count and was accurate to a really *ridiculous*
degree). 

For what it's worth, the Mayan Long Count "ends" Dec 21, 2012.
Actually, it just "rolls over" like an odometer. But it's still a
*very* significant event. The Long Count started Sep 7, 3114 BC. (It
was actually "started" about halfway thru the cycle, but that's the
"base date")


[1] "People of the Book" = Those whose faith includes the "Old
Testament", therefore, Jews, Christians and Muslims. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 03:22:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Patriotism

In mail you write:

> right, an Air Force pilot whose primary job was to run around
> with the hairy dirty Army guys on the ground, right up where the
> bad guys are shooting... His stories about jumping out of a C130,
> at midnight and 500 feet, with tracers flying around, were hair
> raising. Did you know the Army apparently doesn't issue reserve
> parachutes when you're jumping at 500 feet?

Makes sense. By the time you realize that the main chute didn't open,
you are too low for a reserve chute to open. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 03:38:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

In mail you write:

>> While 'I was just following orders' may not be ordained  as a legal
>> defense against atrocities, the only alternative is effectively
>> suicide.

>>Morally right and dead is still just plain dead.

You've missed the whole *point* of the *idea* of war crimes. It's to
get across the idea that the decision in such a case is *not* between
dying for principles and living without them. It's between dying for
your principles or dying for *not* following them. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:08:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Dom Mooney writes:

>One thing I'd like to see is a slightly higher life support charge for High
>Passage (not a lot, say 250Cr) to represent the costs of
>food/service/consumables...

What I would like to see is a much lower life support cost for all sorts
of pasages and for crew too. The Cr2000 per jump is far too high when
compared to standard living expenses. There are other problems too.
For instance, a passenger only spends about 9 or 10 days aboard a ship
while crew presumably live on board all the time. That ought to make
life support costs either 50% higher for crew or 33% lower for passengers.
The figures I use are:

Steerage passengers:            Cr 100
Economy passengers:             Cr 300
Crew and mid passengers:        Cr 400
High passengers:                Cr 500

Of this money Cr100 goes to pay for replenishing the life support system. The
rest goes to food (steerage passengers must bring their own food).

Note: Steerage passengers sleep in bunks; Economy passengers sleep in small
staterooms or two to a large stateroom. Mid and High Passengers as described
in the rules.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #149
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 150



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GURPS Traveller Web Page
Re: Null development in key areas
IG Financial Information
Re: Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: Rome and the Imperium
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: IG Financial Information
Re: Patriotism
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: Patriotism
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Patriotism
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Roran: a new animal
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: Annoying Language
Re: Starship Economics
Fuzzy Logic [was Re: What CE means to me]
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:31:04 -0600
From: Scott Galliand <galliand@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Web Page

The web page for GURPS Traveller has been updated.  It has a link to the
Traveller News Service (with three articles there already) and a link for a
Traveller Links page (still under construction).  It looks like the ad
reported in a recent issue of Pyramid is on the page now.


The page is located at http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Traveller/ for
those that didn't have the address.

Scott Galliand.
Scott Galliand
Systems Analyst, Systems Engineering and Management Associates, Inc.
E-mail : galliand@ix.netcom.com
WWW : http://www.io.com/~galliand/  (NOT BACK ONLINE YET)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:26:05 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Michael D. Peters wrote:

(story about nuking the pass snipped)
> The point of this (I guess) is that what's "friendly" to some might not be
> to some of our "friends".  Not sure how relevent this is but it was a neat
> story.

That s what i figured all along. Had war broken out, the US would have
defended us, and when they would have been done with that, we re no
better off than had the russians taken us over! Using nukes to defend
territory is the most insane practice I ever heard of!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:37:42 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: IG Financial Information

If you are owed money by Imperium games (for work or for merchandise), and I
have not already contacted you, please contact me at this address.  I have 
information for you.



wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 04:31:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Don't forget to throw the signal book overboard!

In mail you write:

> LAST WILL:  Colloquial  naval  name for a special closed data-pack
> used to keep secret orders,  passwords,  call-codes, astrogational 
> data  about  the  location  of  fuel  dumps and other hidden naval 
> sites,  and  any  other classified information.  Such data are not 
> supposed  to  be  copied  in  the  ship's  regular data banks, nor
> memorized.  The LW is carried by the captain of a ship so that the 
> successor  can get them if the captain is killed or incapacitated.  
> In the event of imminent capture or destruction of the ship, it is 
> the specific duty of the senior surviving officer, and the general 
> duty of any surviving officer or crew member, to ensure that these 
> data  are erased.  Apart from other controls a LW is equipped with 
> two  prominent  buttons:  an 'erase' button and a 'retain' button. 
> Pressing the erase button will erase all data bit by bit. Pressing 
> the  retain  button will reset a 12-hour timer.  Should the retain 
> button  not  be pressed again before the timer runs out,  the data 
> will be erased. 
>
>
> I posted it some months ago and it was suggested that such a dingus would
> also include a small explosive charge to physically destroy the storage
> medium. I myself am satisfied by haviing the device erase the data bit by
> bit (That means accessing every single byte and randomizing it, not just
> fiddling around with access tables.), but YMMV. 

Depends on the storage technology used. With some, it may be possible
to recover data.

Also, you don't want *explosive* charges as they tend to scatter
pieces, and the pieces may be readable. Things like thermite work a lot
better. The charge can be in contact with the stroage medium, and thus
it only takes a little to render it unreadable (try reading *any* medium
after it has been dissolved in white-hot liquid iron!)

And this means that while the exterior may get hot enough to give you a
bad burn, it won't kill you to be nearby when the destruct charge goes
off. That makes folks a lot more *comfortable* about pressing that button.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 04:40:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

In mail you write:

> This is a general outline of the 3D sector I had in mind.
> It is an isometric cube that uses a cartesian coordinate
> system, where every coordinate is one parsec. The stepping
> should be about 0.1 parsec.
>
>
> -------------<use monospaced font>---------------
>
>                0,10,10
>               /|
>              /||
>             /|/|
>            /|/||
>           /|/|/|
>          /|/|/||
>         /|/|/|/|  
>        /|/|/|/||
> 0,0,10/|/|/|/|/|0,10,0
>      ||/|/|/|/|/\
>      |/|/|/|/|/\/\
>      ||/|/|/|/\/\/\
>      |/|/|/|/\/\/\/\
>      ||/|/|/\/\/\/\/\
>      |/|/|/\/\/\/\/\/\
>      ||/|/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>      |/|/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>      ||/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>      |/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>  0,0,0\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/10,10,0  
>        \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
>         \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
>          \/\/\/\/\/\/\/
>           \/\/\/\/\/\/
>            \/\/\/\/\/
>             \/\/\/\/
>              \/\/\/
>               \/\/
>                \/
>                 10,0,0
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Despite being not much larger (x and y) than a Traveller
> Subsector, a 3D sector houses more systems.

<snip>

> Has anyone any experience with this kind of sector mapping? The
> calculations aren't too difficult, but I am interested in whether
> it is possible to bring a 3D isometric shape to paper in printable
> (and more important, readable) form.

I can just about *guarantee* that the results will either be unusable
or cluttered.

What you do *instead*, is print a pair of 2d maps. One maps the stars
onto an XY grid, the other onto an XZ or YZ grid. Join the maps on the
"shared" edge, so that the paper can be folded there to place the maps
in the correct relationship to each other. 

This is not perfect, but it is *workable*. 

It's also possible to do this with the XY grid being a hex grid. But
that means that the "common" side has to be the one with "columns" of
hexes.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:05:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

In mail you write:

> Well done, everyone!  That was, I belive, a very rewarding exercise in
> reorientating the TML constituency towards full acculturation.  It is a
> pity, of course, that we won't be able to induce the necessary gene therapy
> via email, now that a certain party leaked news of that technology.  An
> alternative will be found, I am confident.

<rest of message snipped>

Tsk. You've been warned about this before. Now we have to take steps.
Perhaps you noticed that slight flickering on the screen as the message
loaded? That was the TMV[1] uploading. Don't worry, you won't feel a
thing. Soon you'll *know* that you are a normal member of 20th century
Terran culture.

Nemo Nomansson
Temporal Integrity Corps

[1] Tailored Memetic Virus. In this case, one tailored to convert
transtemporal agents not of the TIC into normal citizens of the peroid
in which they reside.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 04:20:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

In mail you write:

>> As I mentioned in another post in this thread, they certainly were.
>> Temples to even Isis, Greek and Norse gods in Rome even in 300 A.D.
>
>      Well...  it was considered scandalous.  Isis was a 'mystery cult'
> introduced during the Republic.  "Decent" society was appalled.  Greek gods
> were long considered Roman equivalents and Norse?  The Vikings didn't become
> known in Europe until Charlemagne, IIRC, though I may be wrong on that?  I
> certainly have never heard of Norse gods being worshipped in Rome.

The Norse were better known in the *eastern* Empire thasn the Western.
They spread up the rivers into Russia ("Rus" = "northman" = "viking"),
and then down other rivers into the Black Sea and on to Constantinople.
The Varangian Guard was composed of Norsemen.

While I doubt that thetre were any temples (the Norse never seemed to
go for that sort of thing), I have little doubt that there were plenty
of folks following the Norse gods.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:15:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

In mail you write:

>>natives can't get inside it, though not for lack of trying. ;) Anyway my
>>players still have access to their ship's library through their personal
>>communicators and one of them noticed the locals have got some pretty good
>>distilling technology.  They should have, the Brandy and Whiskey these folks
>>make is a trade item across half the sector.

<snip>

> the alcohol to burn. Now even at 100% alcohol you'll be very lucky to get
> explosive alcohol/air mixes or FAE, because (ethyl) alcohol just doesn't
> burn fast or hot enough.

Doesn't matter. If you get the *right* mix with air, it'll go "boom".
The thing is that the explosive limits (ie max %age mix with air that
goes "boom" and min %age mix with air that goes "boom") may be very
close together, making it rather hard to get the ratio right.

>>    Any other ideas for the use of distilling and such for purposes of
> warfare?
>
> If you can distill alcohol you can distill hydrocarbons, so if they can
> find any then they'd have their FAEs, Molotovs and other fun toys. At TL4
> there shuold be gunpodwer and any decent chemist should be able to make
> nitroglyerene, guncotton and cordite. A good chemist should be able to make
> picric acid or TNT both of which make fine HE shell fillers. BTW good old
> ammonium-urea fertilizer explosive is well within TL4 and while it would be
> better with the addition of some light oil or diesel fuel it'll go fine
> without.

More to the point, things like *mustard gas* were initially discovered
at TL3 (really! Sir Humphrey Davies discovered them sometime in the
early 1800s. The British military filed them away as "too horrible to
use" and didn't re-open that file until WWII!). They didn't actually
get used in warfare until around TL5.

With late TL4 tech, it is quite possible (but *damn* difficult) to
build something along the lines of a V2 rocket! You just need to know
*how*, which is where the link to the ship comes in.

> Alcohol makes a fine rocket fuel, with the addition of an oxidiser - say
> hydrogen peroxide or nitirc acid, neither of which are too hard to make.

Liquid O2 is possible at TL4. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:04:57 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IG Financial Information

Derek Wildstar schrieb:
> 
> If you are owed money by Imperium games (for work or for merchandise), and I
> have not already contacted you, please contact me at this address.  I have
> information for you.
Bad News, right? Dammit!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:12:57 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

David J. Golden writes:

>Did you know the Army apparently doesn't issue reserve
>parachutes when you're jumping at 500 feet?

   There is a very good reason for that.  At 500 feet, there isn't time for
a reserve chute to open.

>While I've not been privy to any of the formal investigations, I
>understand he did in fact direct his wingman to visually identify
>the bogeys. Only after his wingman positively confirmed that the
>targets were Soviet-built Hinds did he give the fire order.

   Not to contradict you (since you are in contact with the primary source),
but I was under the impression that the incident in Iraq involved what were
thought to be Hip-Es (the gunship variant of the Soviet "Hip" transport
helicopter) not Hinds.  Blackhawks with the stub wing fuel pods *could*
theoretically be confused with the Hip-E from the wrong angle and at
sufficient range.

Regards,

Harold


	

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:38:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:

> Heaven save me from "inventive" players!

Ahh, the standard GM's prayer ;-)
> 
>     At what proof is a distilate going to be liable to ignite?  Will it just
> burn or is it gonna be an explosive (ie. very fast combustion) burn?

Well, it depends a lot on the temperature of the distillate. You ned
pretty high proof, like 151 rum, to ignite readily at room temp. On the
other hand all you need to do is warm it somewhat and you can get lower
proof liquors to ignite, witness crepes suzette. The rate of the burn is
going to be directly related to how mixed with air it is, which in turn is
determined by how volatile it is. Ethanol is volatile, but not as volatile
as, say, gasoline, it's a lot more likely to just burn than explode.
 
>     More to the point how in the heck would you use a high proof distilate to
> make something like a fuel air bomb?

It would be _really_ hard. Ethanol is not really volatile enough to get
the kind of widely dispersed vapors you need for a FAE...you would have to
preheat it considerably. Also ethanol burns a LOT cooler than gasoline,
it's hard to sustain the burn rate you need for a FAE.

Now as molotov cocktails they're fine, just so long as you can keep your
troops from taste testing them regularly.

Now if they figure out how to make wood alcohol , ie: methanol, which is a
quite different process than normal distilling, those will make nasty
bombs. Methanol burns with a colorless flame, and burns hotter than
ethanol. Ask any race car driver...it's not fun to be in an invisible
fire.

>     Any other ideas for the use of distilling and such for purposes of warfare?

Sure, distill up a few barrels of it, and leave it on your enemies
doorstep the night before you attack! ;-) It's hard to fight through a
hangover!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:00:56 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Patriotism

>Does anyone know anything about the Ine Givar other than their having
>been a "pro Democracy" "pro-Zhodani" terrorist group c1106-1130
>in the Spinward Marches?  I've always wondered about that.  Marc?
>
>-Dan

There was a Library data during the 5th frontier war about a jewel smuggler
who was supposed to finance Ine Givar activities that got caught on
Glisten/Glisten.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:03:07 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>There was more to the system then just seal team missions, but the game
>mechanics were so geared towards a military setting that it was tough to
>figure out what else the players could do.  I never got the impression you
>did, however, that all of the traders were stereotyped as bad guys.  There
>were guilded traders, and free traders, and then the traders in between.  In
>fact, one of the players in the group had wanted to settle down into the life
>of a trader after his service with the scouts was finished.
>
>Semo

My view of TNE got heavily tainted by reading the (pretty awful IMNSHO)
first of the TNE novels. The traders there were portryed more or less as
pirates, only worse.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:17:28 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Patriotism

>>What the hell has this to do with traveller?
>
>Well, Anders, you have a very good question there.  If you model your
>Traveller campaign on real life, then perhaps you now have an excellent idea
>for an NPC.  He doesn't brook any nonsense from those who would belittle the
>fighting men and women of the Imperium (even accidentally).  He would rather
>apologize for misconstruing the meaning of a fellow patriot, who will
>understand his zeal than let a slight go unchallenged.  Even though he is
>not (or is, your choice) fit for duty, he would rather risk his life and
>honor than see his beloved Imperium besmirched by the small minded people he
>is surrounded by.

I'll take your advice and make up a NPC who is ex-military and who actually
honestly belive that all soldiers fight for peace and freedom. Whenever
somebody talks about anything vaguely related to war he'll burst: "Freedom
isn't free! It's paid for with the blood of patriots!" and when somebody
tells him that "Opression isn't free either! It's also paid for with the
blood of patriots!" they'll get into a barroom brawl that the NPC will win
most of the time (he fights dirty as he has survived a few wars).

He could get hired as a bodyguard, soldier etc but the real enigma for the
PCs to find out is wether he can take it or not when the shit hits the fan.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:25:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

>        What the heck is going to happen to all of the other standards
>under this
>new regime of 'politically correctness'?  I mean, look at where it is
>leading us:  We can't use BC/AD anymore, or certain ethnic notations,
>pretty soon we will have to be calling our enemies 'divided friends' or
>something silly like that.  What will be next on the docket for the change
>to 'correctness'?  I nominate A.M. and P.M.!  I think that A.M. hurts my
>feelings as a person who has to get up early and go to work while others
>get to sleep in to the PM!

We in the civilized world use 24 hour clocks, just as the military. It will
inevitable happen but UK & US will probably use AM/PM forever.
(Just testing your knee jerk reflexes)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:40:32 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

>If the Rorans dont work out I recommend anolas.
>
>I like anolas.  They are so fun and cuddly and I just want to be around
>them awhole lot and love them and hold them and
>duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh......

Too many psionic animals in Traveller. AAnolas, Beakers etc. Give the
players a seedspitter, they're clean, small, eat little, keep the flies
living in the ships locker at decent level and can take zero-G quite well.
Honest Jon at Bendor/Glisten orbital station sells small electroic targets
with artificial flies on them so that you can train your pet. He also sells
frozen flies that can be thawed out and will fly around a while before they
die of cell structure damage to amuse the pet. My PCs had 12 kg of these
flies in the fridge when somebody searched their ship for drugs and forgot
to close the fridge door.

The PCs arrived 8 hours later to find there starship shockful of flies and
a nearly spherical "Speedy" lying on the floor.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:38:23 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

[snip]
>ObTrav: Do the Imp Marines own their Ortillery, or do they get it >when 
the Navy not busy chasing off the last fleeing scout ship?
>
>-- Rupert Boleyn

This is a really good question.  The short answer I believe is No.

The longer answer is....

RW, we no longer have battleships that can provide the type of pounding 
that was given during the amphibious landings of WWII or later in the 
shelling of the mountains in Lebanon.  The Imperial Navy I believe will 
have ships assigned the task of conducting the surface preparation.

Landings don't take place until you control of the battlespace.  During 
the landings at Normandy, we owned the sea and air.  Same with all 
Marine Corps landings.  I believe that the Imperial Marines will be in 
the same position, ie, that the landings won't be conducted until the 
covering forces of the enemy are driven off.  That is the responsibility 
of the Imperial Navy.

Ie, Marine Air which is assigned to a carrier (ship based) is owned by 
the Commander of the Task Force, until such time as it is transferred 
ashore.  That means, as you mentioned above, that its primary mission is 
defense of the Carrier Battle Group, and only unassigned missions will 
be given in support of ground combat operations.  Once ashore, it falls 
under control of the Landing Force Commander, with the obvious change of 
priorities.

I think that fighter bombers (Rampart IVs?) released from duties in 
space combat would be refitted for surface operations.  Drop forces 
would make a planethead and land heavy artillery.  This would relieve 
some of the pressure for continued Ortillery, and free up the Naval 
ships to move on to bigger and better things.  You would also need those 
logistics ships that I've seen on the list to provide material for the 
conduct of surface operations.  And eventually, the Imperial Army would 
be brought in to conduct the extended planetary campaigns....



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:41 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

>So do you have to work at being this obnoxious or does it come 
>naturally
>to you?  I can ignore the jingoistic militarism you recently spouted, 
>but
>the above post *really* annoys me.  You are awfully damn dismissive of
>anyone who does not agree with you.  Most of the planet "does not not 
>want
>to acknowledge Christ" ie they are not Christians, live with it. 

My, My, how passionate we are when confronted with the truth.  Only
discussions about out creator can instill such ire.  More proof to me
that deep down inside we all know that there is a creator and that we
yearn to know the truth about Him.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:56:32 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:51:54 -0600 "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
writes:
>Erwin Fritz wrote:
>
><snipped cargo availability table supplied by Marc>
>
>>Now, here's a question. The above chart looks, IIRC, just like the 
>one in
>the MT rules.In those rules, it's not clear exactly how
>>much cargo you find.
>
>The number rolled is the amount in tons.
>
>>If freight is defined as goods you haul for a price (Cr1000/ton per 
>jump),
>and cargo is defined as something you buy and hope to sell
>>later at a profit, where in the above table is the roll for cargo? I
>realized that the table uses the 'CARGO' header, but it's really
>>talking about freight, no?
>
>I don't recognize your terms (Traveller wise).  If they were used in 
>any
>thing but CT & T4 then I missed them.  In those 2 cargo is what you 
>call
>freight.  You ship it for someone else at a profit.  Speculative Cargo 
>is
>what you call cargo.  It's something you buy and ship with the hopes 
>of
>making a profit.
>
>>I've adopted a house rule that says that the Major column is used for 
>both
>>We always just allowed the captain to buy all he wants.  I've been to
>manufacturers and they usually don't have any kind of limit to how 
>much you
>can buy.  No a limit that would mean anything to a free trader captain
>anyway.


If a manufacturer has a limit, usually it's a minimum purchase.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:02:20 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fuzzy Logic [was Re: What CE means to me]

I apologize up front, but I could not resist.

>And taking a look at "Christian" History suggests to me its time for 
>change, for free and enlightened human thinking unburdened by the 
>excess baggage of religion! People should take up the moral standards 
>because they are right, nor because the feel obliged.

Uuuuuh, what makes a moral standard right?  You are speaking from a 
Judeo-Christian moral view point if I ever heard one, whether you 
believe it or not!

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:49:20 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Tsk. You've been warned about this before. Now we have to take steps.
>Perhaps you noticed that slight flickering on the screen as the message
>loaded? That was the TMV[1] uploading. Don't worry, you won't feel a
>thing. Soon you'll *know* that you are a normal member of 20th century
>Terran culture.

<squeak> <wriggle nose> <jump on wheel> <run in circles> <soil cage>
<breed> <squeak>


- --------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #150
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 151



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: Patriotism
Re: Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Patriotism
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: 101 Customs - Slang
Re: Military roleplaying (Not so Long) and SEXY, SEXY B-52's
Re: FF&S2 Spreadsheet...new version available.
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Traveller Active Campaign List location
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Shuttle Ride
Re: 3D sectors
More on Starship Economics
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: Patriotism
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: 3D sectors
Send in the Marines?
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Passenger traffic levels
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)
Rob Prior and mail
water canopy
Starting a new thread (was Re: Alcohol Proof?)
Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:
> >     At what proof is a distilate going to be liable to ignite?  Will it just
> > burn or is it gonna be an explosive (ie. very fast combustion) burn?
> 
> Well, it depends a lot on the temperature of the distillate. You ned
> pretty high proof, like 151 rum, to ignite readily at room temp. On the
> other hand all you need to do is warm it somewhat and you can get lower
> proof liquors to ignite, witness crepes suzette. The rate of the burn is
> going to be directly related to how mixed with air it is, which in turn is
> determined by how volatile it is. Ethanol is volatile, but not as volatile
> as, say, gasoline, it's a lot more likely to just burn than explode.

It's quite easy to get Everclear (which I think is 150 proof) to ignite
by spraying it into the air in a mist.  I'm not sure how explosive it
would be, but it makes for an impressive fireball.  (For a test, just
take a mouthful and spray it out while holding a cigarette lighter, lit,
in front of your mouth.  Aim a little high or you'll just put out the
lighter and soak your hand.  Don't hold the Everclear in your mouth too
long, though, or you'll absorbe the alcohol...)
 
Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:34:21 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

Anders Backman wrote:

> >Does anyone know anything about the Ine Givar other than their having
> >been a "pro Democracy" "pro-Zhodani" terrorist group c1106-1130
> >in the Spinward Marches?  I've always wondered about that.  Marc?
> >
> >-Dan
>
> There was a Library data during the 5th frontier war about a jewel smuggler
> who was supposed to finance Ine Givar activities that got caught on
> Glisten/Glisten.

Hmmm, I don't suppose you have this entry? I thought I had my Library data up
to date, but I don't remember anything about this!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:26:27 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)

Greg Smith wrote:

> A long standing dream of mine has been to ride the shuttle, or more
> accurately, to eventually get into space...  Anyone share that dream?
>

Since the Enterprise flight in 1976 or 1977! Before that I wanted to go to
the moon. I had planned to be on Apollo 30 or so ...

> Also, what would you pay (how much), in a world-wide lottery, for a
> chance at a seat as an observer/mission specialist on one of the Space
> Shuttles?  $50?  $100?

I'd be willing to pay the following amount:

        total amount spent = number of tickets issued x cost per ticket - 1

The '-1' is so my wife can buy a ticket.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:03:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
 
> Not real bright against the Soviets either, because they'd call this 'use
> of weapons of mass destruction', and that'd guarantee them using chemical
> weapons and nukes right back.

Actually, from the context of the story (mass Soviet invasion through
Germany) this was in the bad 'ol Evil Empire days...the Soviets proabbly
already used them to soften up the front.

Most of the planning for US forces in those days utilized strategies like
this, since we were expecting to be vastly outnumbered by a strangely
massively superior Soviet Army. I say strangely, because we _did_ have
reliable intel to the effect that any Soviet advance could only get a few
miles before running out of fuel, since they didn't have widely dispersed
fuel depots. There was too much danger of the bulk of the fuel being
stolen and sold on the black market. And that was only _one_ of the
problems the Sovs would have had.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:39:19 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Patriotism

>Hmmm, I don't suppose you have this entry? I thought I had my Library data up
>to date, but I don't remember anything about this!

Goofed. It was a TNS item actually.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:55:10 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

In a message dated 2/12/98 4:19:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< You've missed the whole *point* of the *idea* of war crimes.  >>

     Actually, having been exposed to the Nuremburg trials in 2 settings (as a
US Army MP and while getting my degree in Criminal Justice)  I have come to
the conclusion that the Trials were an absolute travesty of justice in many
ways.  They were simply the final defeat of the Axis powers....they had
nothing to do w/ justice.  A prime and oft-quoted example of this is the
conviction of Adm. Karl Doenitz, he was found guilty of Crimes against
Humanity for conducting an unrestricted submarine campaign.  However, Adm.
Charles Lockwood, USN, was nowhere to be seen!  His sub campaign did what
Doenitz's couldn't...it led directly to the defeat of a warring power.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:04:14 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>My view of TNE got heavily tainted by reading the (pretty awful IMNSHO)
>first of the TNE novels. The traders there were portryed more or less as
>pirates, only worse.

Hahaha...  Okay, I get your point :^)  Personally though, I try to keep as far
away from role-playing based novels as possible.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:08:52 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 101 Customs - Slang

>99. Merchant Sign Language
>     When making a sale dockside merchants will often work with more >  
than one person on a single customer. Each will hand over between >  
them and hope to wear them into accepting a sale. To coordinate >  
clearly they have developed an informal method of exchanging >  opinions 
non-verbally of how they should progress the sale.
>
>  Jo Grant
>

This reminds me of the trip we took to Israel this summer.  Great fun. 
The barter economy, where there was no "set price" except in gov't 
approved stores, meant that everything could be had for a price, and 
depended on your ability to bargain.  My wife and I purchased a 
beautifully crafted backgammon set (original price about $200+) for 
$95...and probably could have gotten it $5 or $10 cheaper...  Many other 
things were bought, and prices compared to others in the group...  "You 
paid how much?!  I only paid XX!"  (or vice versa :-()

One of the bonuses of the tour was a day in Jerusalem where we could do 
whatever we wanted.  My brothers and I, and our wives (we each only have 
1) :-) went into the christian sector (meaning "not muslim") where the 
natives purchase things.  No tourist traps.  We had a ball, but wished 
we had some kind of jargon for ourselves as the merchants all spoke 
Arabic and English, and we had no other common language amongst us.  In 
fact, we talked about learning sign language before we go on another 
trip like this, or at least practising pig-latin....

OO-tay Uch-may!  Way oo-tay uch-may!  :-)

We needed something to put us on an even footing!

Cheers!
Greg

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:17:13 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Military roleplaying (Not so Long) and SEXY, SEXY B-52's

David J. Golden writes:

>>And If I'd hung around I could have gotten a date with Kelly
>>Flynn.
>
> What, you mean your turn hadn't come up yet? Or wait, you were
>commissioned AND weren't married ...

   I hear Kelly Flynn recently got a job at the White House.  The job
involves interacting with the President on a daily basis and must be rather
physically demanding, because she was issued knee and elbow pads as soon as
she arrived....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:20:41 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S2 Spreadsheet...new version available.

Small correction.... the address should be ..../trav/trav.htm

>From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
>Version 2.0 of my FF&S2 spacecraft design spreadsheet is freely 
>available on my website: www.ames.net/igor/trav.trav.htm. The 
>spreadsheet itself can be found on the drydock page.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:28:17 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

Dear Sir:

I'm sorry to contradict Mr. Uren, but I thought that a demonstration strike on
an atoll was ruled out, because they thought a fizzle would make the Japanese
that much more intransigient.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 1998 12:24 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Traveller Active Campaign List location

The "Active Campaign List" is currently at Chris Griffen's
website:

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:38:56 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Dear Sir:

I always thought it would have been better if they just held the s-------
(sorry I'm a little biased against Nazi's), and turned them over to the post -
war democratic gevernments of Europe for murder trials. This would have
avoided the "crimes against humanity" problem, while still seeing them recieve
the ultimate punishment (execution) for mass murder.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 18:39:41 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> I can just about *guarantee* that the results will either be unusable
> or cluttered.
>
I was afraid someone would say that...

> What you do *instead*, is print a pair of 2d maps. One maps the stars
> onto an XY grid, the other onto an XZ or YZ grid. Join the maps on the
> "shared" edge, so that the paper can be folded there to place the maps
> in the correct relationship to each other. 
>
I thought about that, too. This solution has the additional advantage of only
requiring two maps for a sector (instead of four for an isometric shape).

> This is not perfect, but it is *workable*. 
>
Yes, that would be a big advantage, wouldn't it? ;-)

> It's also possible to do this with the XY grid being a hex grid. But
> that means that the "common" side has to be the one with "columns" of
>hexes.
Not necessarily. It would look better, though. In the german RPG magazine 
'Wunderwelten'
there was an article about a space combat tabletop named 'Astrotech'. They extended
it to 3D space, used a hex grid and didn't join the two maps on the column side. Looked
not very elegant, but that is a matter of taste (IMHO)

What would you use? Cartesian coordinates or hex? (Hex looks cool while Cartesian 
coordinates
are more accurate IMHO)

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:10 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Shuttle Ride

>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>

>   I am not authorized by my creditors to spend as much as I would be
>willing to for a chance.

If I was single my answer would be the same as Harolds.  However, being 
one who is married, and having four children, I seem to fight a moral 
battle with myself every time I think of spending money that could be 
better spent on something for one of them.  I am afraid that after 
fighting this battle with myself on this one that my answer must be 
$0.00.

PZ


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:16:19 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> It's also possible to do this with the XY grid being a hex grid. But
> that means that the "common" side has to be the one with "columns" of
> hexes.

I've been trying to figure out an easy way of representing this in a
closest-packed arrangement, as opposed to the inelegant compromize of
hexes xy and columns ("squares") in the z-plane.

Basically, it's a hex grid on both the xy and the yz planes. Each parsec
would be connected with 12 others: Six surrounding on xy plane, 3 above,
and 3 below.

xy planes adjoining on the z-axis "slip" slightly, so the centres of the
hexes fall on the vertices of the adjoining plane. Anybody who's stacked
golf balls, marbles, oranges, or any other round object knows what I
mean.

Making this relationship clear on two dimensional surfaces is
"non-trival". :-) hmmm... maybe one should find some crystal lattice
models in a science hobbyist store. You could count the number of
connecting struts between point A and B to find the jump number. No trig
required. :-)

Say! You could also use different coloured struts for trade routes,
different coloured vertices for asteroid mainworlds, no fuel, hi pop.
etc. Those on tight budgets can use marshmallows and toothpicks.

Where did I leave that Jitterbug...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:13:13 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: More on Starship Economics

Thanks to all of you who've replied to my request for info on Starship
Economics 101.  Most of the replies have been informative, but not quite
on the target of my intentions.  So let me be more specific:

1. OK, I know what the Lifesupport costs of a High, Mid, and Low Passage
passenger are.  What are the costs of Lifesupport for the crew?  I'm
looking for the Lifesupport overhead costs for running a ship, the part
of the Lifesupport that isn't paid for by a paying passenger. 
Obviously, you must have lifesupport for the control room, crew's living
space, engine room, etc.  Also, for most smaller tradeships, you must
run lifesupport in the cargo hold as well, because it is also the
passageway from forward to aft.

2. Obviously, part of the costs of running a ship include the fuel
costs.  But there should be other costs as well.  Docking fees.  Minor
repairs.  Cleaning costs.  Drinking water.

3. Seems to me that part of the duties of the Steward would be
purchasing the food and other consumables for the passengers and crew. 
How would these expenses be figured.  If the Steward can get a good deal
on supplies ("Heh, this tastes *nearly* as good, at half the cost!  The
smell isn't *really* that bad."), it means more profit.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 18:09 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

In-Reply-To: <6a83c447.34df7b9a@aol.com>

> There were additional mandatory classes from the Chaplain on suicide,

Wow, they even teach you how to do that? :-)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:23:54 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Patriotism

>         While I've not been privy to any of the formal investigations, I
> understand he did in fact direct his wingman to visually identify
> the bogeys. Only after his wingman positively confirmed that the
> targets were Soviet-built Hinds did he give the fire order.


Now that is true.  And Hinds are nasty choppers.  Nevertheless...the
incident happened.

That was over in a war zone, and perhaps my comments were too hasty.
What I really am getting at is the Italy thing.

BTW, I dont beleive VID is possibel in Trav.  It is all IFF.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:24:03 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> Which is one of the reasons that a *lot* of folks think it'd be a good
> idea to detach the Warthogs from the Air Force and give them to the
> Army. The AF just barely tolerates them (if it hadn't been for Desert
> Storm, the AF would have replaced them with some hi-tech fighters that
> had a "ground attack mode") and serving in them doesn't do your career
> much good.
> 

Does a lot better than flying bombers.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:23:59 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

As I recall, 300+ parsecs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:15:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Send in the Marines?

Schmidt AA (Anthony) at MSXSSC writes:

>	The theory that marines just charge the hill and allow their bodies
>to pile up is totally false.  If you look at historical references to most
>major battles you will find that the ratio of marines lost is less than that
>of the army, or the enemy.

   I was not so much Marine bashing as making a point about tactical
mentality.  The Marines by nature are infantry shock troops--walk right up
to the enemy, grab him by the nose, and kick his ass.  If his ass can't be
kicked, make him pay for every inch of ground he takes.

   The Army does things differently.  This in part stems from the fact that
the Army emphasizes mobile warfare, with mech units rolling through and
around the enemy as quickly as possible (Marine divisions would be
classified as light infantry in the Army--ground pounders--with perhaps some
cav units attached).

>  They have been known on several historical
>occasions to hold against far superior forces, with just a handful of
>marines.  If I were going into battle, I would much rather go in with the
>longer, superior training of a marine, than that of their other military
>colleagues.

   That's because they were/are an elite infantry force fighting against
other infantry forces.  They could not and would not, for example, be
expected to take a piece of ground away from a Russian armored division and
defeat it in detail--for that job you want an Army mech division.

>  Marines are generally well trained and disciplined troops,
>though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally controlled
>recklessness.

   Absolutely.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:32:39 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Stephan Aspridis wrote:

> What would you use? Cartesian coordinates or hex? (Hex looks cool while Cartesian
> coordinates
> are more accurate IMHO)

'Fraid I must disagree.

The most efficient shape to fill 3d-space is the tetrahedron. Nature
uses a 60 degree coordinate system, not a 90 degree Cartesian coordinate
system.

Buckminster Fuller discovered that if we were to convert from a
cartesian coordinate system to a 60-degree coordinate system (12
vertices around one, which he called Vector Equilibrium), we would not
need to use all kinds of irrational constants such as pi...

check the R. Buckminster Fuller FAQ, especially the Synergetics section:

<http://www.netaxs.com/people/cjf/fuller-faq.html>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:43:42 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Passenger traffic levels

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> I hope this will prove of use to some of you. Comments eagerly awaited.
> 
> ESTIMATING STARSHIP PASSENGER TRAFFIC
> 
Looks good to me. Thanks.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:36:56 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
[snip comments on roran and anolas etc.]
> The PCs arrived 8 hours later to find there starship shockful of flies and
> a nearly spherical "Speedy" lying on the floor.
> 
Any room in your campaigns for an outsider. Sounds like you guys have a
ball.
*Great* stuff!!!
Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:27:06 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> Greg Smith wrote:
> 
> > A long standing dream of mine has been to ride the shuttle, or more
> > accurately, to eventually get into space...  Anyone share that dream?
> >
Who wouldn't want that ? I would *really* like to what's out there
besides us, and I don't believe they ??? will *all* be agressive. 

What ever the cost, if it came to a lottery, I'd lose even if I bought
all the tickets. (They'd cancel the contest and keep my money.) 

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:43:07 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Rob Prior and mail

(Just so Harold isn't alone in the subject lines!)

I vaguely remember Rob Prior having mail problems recently and of course I
didn't pay much attention because:

a) I assumed it would be fixed post haste
b) I didn't happen to be e-mailing him at the time

Now of course I'm getting bounces and wonder if anyone has a 'new' address
for him or any other helpful info.

Sorry to take up bandwith but at least its a change from the February Flame
Fest - now thankfully dying down.


tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:49:09 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: water canopy

Actually, while my cage is rattled and I've got the cloak off....

I read ages ago about the idea of a 'water canopy' around the earth.  IIRC
it was supposed to have been the cause of Noah's deluge or some such but my
memory is hazy on the topic.

I *do not* repeat *do not* wish to debate the merits or otherwise of the
Biblical flood per se, but I would like to know if anyone can answer
some/any of the following:

a) how would a planet 'develop' such a canopy
b) what would it look like from the planet (assuming it 'looks like'
anything - I guess it may not)
c) what would it look like from space (ditto the above)
d) what effects would it have on the planet
e) what effects would it have on local space travel (and other Travellerish
considerations)
f) how might such a canopy be 'burst'
g) would this have the effect of a planetwide deluge and/or anything else?

Here's hoping the collective wisdom of TML can help out on this one.

Many thanks

tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:53:01 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Starting a new thread (was Re: Alcohol Proof?)

[snippity-snip]

>Don't hold the Everclear in your mouth too
>long, though, or you'll absorbe the alcohol...)
>
>Bolie IV


Oh, one would never want to do that, now would one?!? :-)


Okay, I wanted to quip, but I feel obliged to start a new thread because I
don't want to be completely non-Trav (like those religious posts are
getting to be). So...

Belters and mining.

I have read numerous statements to the effect that refuelling at a gas
giant is a bad idea. I assume this is because it takes a lot of resources
to get to a gas giant, which in turn garners you more cost than just buying
the dang fuel at regular prices. Can the same argument be made about
belters? Especially those using those Type-S Seekers, the ones with the
laser drill?  First of all, doesn't it take more than just a laser drill to
get valuable raw materials from an asteroid? You have to process it,
correct? So if you just chop up a bunch of rock and load your hold, to take
it back to base to get it processed, isn't this going to be expensive?
Especially considering the ratio of junk rock to valuable ore? How do those
belters make money, anyway?

Oh, BTW. Hans, I enjoyed your post of passenger traffic levels. Good show.

And as for the poll taken a couple of days back:

MT/Rebellion.

Actually, I use the FUDGE rules for my games now, and I run pretty
cinematic games. The Rebellion is great for a Star Wars type of space opera
setting: lots of villians, big ships, and all sorts of hell breaking loose.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:04:04 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

 Marines are generally well trained and disciplined 
>troops,
>though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally 
>controlled
>recklessness.


I don't want to start a flame war, but I have a sincere question:

Is it fair to say that the Marines would be the combat force meant to
"take possesion" of territory held by enemy forces and the Army is meant
to "keep" or hold a territory once taken?

The mission of the Army seems obscure to me now.  Maybe we should have
the Navy, Marines, and Air Force absorb the role of the Army in this day
and age.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #151
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 152



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill
Hamsters Got Guns!
Re: water canopy
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Since Nurenburg...
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Water Canopy
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
RE: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re:  Military Chaplains
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: Systems and Milleaus...
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: Starship economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:42:08 +0000
From: Dominic Reynolds <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill

The T4.1 Jack of Trades skill allows someone to
do most anything.

As far as I see it 

A character with JOT 4 would have all skills
available to them at level 2. (JOT 4-2)
Therefore they would be

Pilot 2
Engineer 2
Naval Arch 2
Demolitions 2
BattleDress 2
Recon 2
Computer 2
Tactics 2
etc


Surely some skills would be harder for a well
rounded person to grasp and therefore would have
a futher minus.  Say a Pilot might be -4 and a
Demolitions expert might be -6 to the JOT skill.

Does anyone have any comments

- ---
BTW apologies for miss messaging my reply to the TML
on the CE/BCE rant.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:54:18 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Hamsters Got Guns!

>>Tsk. You've been warned about this before. Now we have to take steps.
>>Perhaps you noticed that slight flickering on the screen as the message
>>loaded? That was the TMV[1] uploading. Don't worry, you won't feel a
>>thing. Soon you'll *know* that you are a normal member of 20th century
>>Terran culture.
>
><squeak> <wriggle nose> <jump on wheel> <run in circles> <soil cage>
><breed> <squeak>
  ^^^^...
>Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
 
  Het, how big a PMPP can a hamster _use_, anyway?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:58:17 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: water canopy

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:
> 
> Actually, while my cage is rattled and I've got the cloak off....
> 
> I read ages ago about the idea of a 'water canopy' around the earth.  IIRC
> it was supposed to have been the cause of Noah's deluge or some such but my
> memory is hazy on the topic.
> 
> I *do not* repeat *do not* wish to debate the merits or otherwise of the
> Biblical flood per se, but I would like to know if anyone can answer
> some/any of the following:
> 
> a) how would a planet 'develop' such a canopy
> b) what would it look like from the planet (assuming it 'looks like'
> anything - I guess it may not)
> c) what would it look like from space (ditto the above)
> d) what effects would it have on the planet
> e) what effects would it have on local space travel (and other Travellerish
> considerations)
> f) how might such a canopy be 'burst'
> g) would this have the effect of a planetwide deluge and/or anything else?
> 
> Here's hoping the collective wisdom of TML can help out on this one.
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> tc


I think the ancients just had an underwater world with grav generators
to create airable land.  The ocean was suspended abouve.  When the
batteries finally died splash.

Noah saw from his little strip indicator on the package of the battery
it was getting low:)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:08:26 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

>         CHVIEW! CHVIEW! CHVIEW!
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
> --

Chview is great but doens't allow mapping of dust clouds or star/sysem
images of the resolution I want.  My final product needs to look like a
work of art.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:21:20 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

At 07:49 1998-02-12 -0800, Kenji Schwarz wrote:
><squeak> <wriggle nose> <jump on wheel> <run in circles> <soil cage>
><breed> <squeak>

*Desperate chewing on knuckles in order to save everyone near me from
terrible shock*


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:19:42 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

At 21:17 1998-02-11 +0800, Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>But we have to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that they don't find out what we're up
>to.  Once word of the project gets out to the TML public, we're through.
>
>M. Schwarz
>Manipulation Coordinator

HA ! Finally proof that K. Schwarz isn't really Sayat, but a Hiver in
disguise.


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:21:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Bolie Williams IV wrote:

> It's quite easy to get Everclear (which I think is 150 proof) to ignite
> by spraying it into the air in a mist.  I'm not sure how explosive it
> would be, but it makes for an impressive fireball.  (For a test, just
> take a mouthful and spray it out while holding a cigarette lighter, lit,
> in front of your mouth.  Aim a little high or you'll just put out the
> lighter and soak your hand.  Don't hold the Everclear in your mouth too
> long, though, or you'll absorbe the alcohol...)

Actually Everclear is 200 proof, unless they sell a toned down version
where you live. 100% ethanol, which upon exposure to air rapidly drops to
97% due to ethanols hygroscopic nature. 

I think this is the clearest answer you'll ever get...No, ethanol won't
make a decent FAE. Otherwise you would risk a LOT more than singed
eyebrows doing this stunt.

speeew...click fwooosh
 instead of
speeew...click BOOM

Of course, trouble, really dumb stunts, and lost time periods seem to come
attached to bottles of Everclear, in my (dim, obviously) recollection ;-)

(never _did_ figure out how we got that thing up THERE!)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:22:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

>OTOH one of my heroes, Tom Uren, does. Tom Uren was in Changi between 1942
>and 1944, and was a prisoner of war doing forced labour in a Japanese
>factory in 1945. His view was that to drop the bomb was wrong, as neither
>Hiroshima or Nagasaki were military targets, and in any case a
>demonstration would have had a similar cost/benefit analysis.

It caused Japan to surrender in a matter of days.  I can't think of
any more suitable military objective.  Anything else is a matter
of semantics.  The fact is that the US was attacked and had
the right to defend itself with priority to saving its own
people.  The bombing of civilian targets was something that
all sides did and Japan helped set a precedent for.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:03:34 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Sorry for renaming this thread just as it was starting out, but I didn't find
the
old name descriptive enough.

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> I have read numerous statements to the effect that refuelling at a gas
> giant is a bad idea. I assume this is because it takes a lot of resources
> to get to a gas giant, which in turn garners you more cost than just buying
> the dang fuel at regular prices. Can the same argument be made about
> belters? Especially those using those Type-S Seekers, the ones with the
> laser drill?  First of all, doesn't it take more than just a laser drill to
> get valuable raw materials from an asteroid? You have to process it,
> correct? So if you just chop up a bunch of rock and load your hold, to take
> it back to base to get it processed, isn't this going to be expensive?
> Especially considering the ratio of junk rock to valuable ore? How do those
> belters make money, anyway?

Here's how I've always pictured it.

The lone Belter, with his seeker, finds some ore. Using special equipment on
the seeker, he extracts a large sample of said ore. He ventures out in his vacc
suit and puts a beacon on the rock. The beacon identifies the ore as his. He
then installs a small 0.01G maneuver drive, with a couple of days fuel. This is
used to move the ore sample toward the nearest processing station. He doesn't
use his cargo hold for this because a believable sample will be too large to
fit there.

The Belter then zips off to that station and stakes a claim. The claim is
tentatively sold to a large mining firm, which has the necessary equipment to
completely mine out the asteroid. When the ore sample gets there, it is used as
proof of the validity of the claim.

Note that the maneuver drive on the rock just accelerates. It doesn't turn
around halfway and decelerate because that would be a waste of time and would
require a computer. The processing station will have a mass driver that can
decelerate the rock. Another way is to simply match velocities with the rock,
"board" it, and install a larger (say, 2G) maneuver drive, which will slow it
down.

The Belter doesn't mine the whole rock; he hasn't got the equipment for that.
He does, however, collect royalties from the mining company to whom he sold the
rock.

I like this scheme because:
a) it means the independent miner needs little more than a small spacecraft and
some rudimentary mining equipment to get going
b) it fits in with the Niven concept of a belter, which I'm fond of

The problem with it is that the mining equipment on the seeker has really never
been detailed in any Traveller rules that I've seen. Neither has the tiny
maneuver drive that is needed.

These scheme only works if there is already a processing station in the system
when the belter gets there. If he's the first one doing any mining, he needs
much more equipment.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 20:27 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Since Nurenburg...

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980211205704.0080c460@mail.pcisys.net>

David,

> So, looking at Star Trek, which apparently DOES have regulations
> or General Orders stating when a subordinate not only may but
> MUST relieve a superior, and modern US military regulations which
> do not:
>  
>  - Would the IN have such regulations? How about IISS, or IA?
> Likewise other races?
>  - Under what conditions would it be legal?
>  - How likely would it be to succeed?

Considering a Naval warship - even a Destroyer - has enough firepower 
to devastate an entire planet, it's vitally important that the CO is 
sane and following orders. OTOH it's also important to maintain 
discipline and respect the chain of command.

The Captain can be relieved under the following conditions:

1. He is medically incapable (either physically or mentally) of 
command, as certified by the Chief Medical Officer and agreed by at 
least 2/3 of the Command Staff.

2. He issues illegal orders. This must be agreed by the Executive 
Officer and at least 2/3 of the Command Staff.

Note that an unsuccessful challenge to the Captain's authority is 
mutiny, the normal punishment for which is death.

See Feintuch's Seafort Saga books for some discussion of this.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 20:26 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

In-Reply-To: <34DFDCBE.4D2F@ebicom.net>

> > How will you get the new codes to the people who need them?
> > 
>  
> Thats why we come back to the O'club every evening.

Difficult when you're a couple of parsecs away.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:58:07 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

Ian or Katts wrote:

[snip]

> Bringing this back ObTrav, I think it is quite possible to have an ex-war
> hero campaigning against either Imperial involvement in a certain war, or
> Imperial tactics (especially in the early "ruthless" period).
>
> Could be good if you have a party of pro-military players to have a major
> NPC as a Uren- or Kovacs-type, who despite being an ex-war hero is opposing
> war/this war/the conduct of this war.

I think that you may have confused a growing Imperium with a stable Democracy.
Remember, an Imperial government is just a nice word for a dictatorship.  Even
if, and I think it unlikely in the early days of the Imperium, it was an
enlightened form of Monarchy (implied by the Moot of the latter Imperium),
ultimately power rested in the hands of Cleon.  He had just crowned himself, and
would still be consolidating power.  I seriously doubt that whatever security
arm he had empowered with internal security of his realm would allow for popular
dissent.

For a historical example, let us look at the Stalin purges of the late 30's.

douglas

> >Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:57:04 -0700
> >From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> >Subject: Re: Since Nurenburg...
>
> >
> >       - Would the IN have such regulations? How about IISS, or IA?
>
> I believe that the Imperium would have conventions on wars, even bad wars,
> because of the risk of collateral damage. OTOH Hard Times indicates that
> the dont.

As I interpreted the 'canon' sources - the Imperium forced the 'Rules of War' on
it's client members and free mercenary groups.  Imperial Forces, however, were
quite exempted from them.  As I currently run them, System Defense Forces are
armed with nuclear weaponry, but it requires the order of an Marquis to
interfere with a lawful planetary government (Cluster/SubSector Level
administration), and must be confirmed by the Duke (Sector Level), at least
after the fact...

> Quite likely, if the Imperium has as strong concept of honour as I think it
> does. I'm thinking of the song "The Conchie" about a conciencious objector
> in a medical corps, who refused orders to go into a minefield to rescue a
> wounded soldier.

Considering the potential for social advancement through the military (Marines
notwithstanding), I would tend to think that the Imperium is _very_ military
oriented!

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:57:49 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Water Canopy

I haven't heard of a water canopy before, and I'm not sure what is meant by it - an orbital or high-altitude water bubble?

The best explanation I've heard for Noah's deluge related it to memories of the end of the last Ice Age. The Mediterranean Sea basin was nearly empty, and had been for thousands of years. The shallow valley at the west end (Gibraltar) was enough to keep the oceans out. With the rise of the world ocean levels (all that water not locked up in ice any more), sea level breached Gibraltar and created the largest waterfall in history. What was it like for the people living in the foothills of Mount Crete or Mount Cyprus? This waterfal was so far away that it wasn't even distant thunder, but that nearby sea suddenly began to rise at the rate of miles per day. Imagine how many people took refuge from this flood on the highest hill they knew of, and drowned as the water level took this as well?  Those who survived did so by running for their lives farther than they had ever travelled, with everything they knew vanishing forever behind them.

The Mediterranean Basin was one of the most highly populated areas of the world at that time. The stone age peoples affected by this catastrophe told the tale to their children, and the tale was handed down to become part of the legends of many peoples - even the peoples near the source of the Nile had heard of it.

Obtrav: Many worlds are at TL3 or less and lack long range communications. How do you inform the populace of a spaceborne plague, invasion or other disaster in a timely fashion? Imagine a Scout/Courier buzzing friendly native encampments with PA system blaring....


Walt Smith
- --------------------------------------
"I'm quite comfortable limiting myself to petty thugs." - one of my game group PC's

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:09:10 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> Here's how I've always pictured it.
>
> The lone Belter, with his seeker, finds some ore. Using special equipment on
> the seeker, he extracts a large sample of said ore. He ventures out in his vacc
> suit and puts a beacon on the rock. The beacon identifies the ore as his. He
> then installs a small 0.01G maneuver drive, with a couple of days fuel. This is
> used to move the ore sample toward the nearest processing station. He doesn't
> use his cargo hold for this because a believable sample will be too large to
> fit there.

a small .01 G M-drive, fuel to feed it, a computer to control it, sensors to let
it track it progress and compare it to where it should be, etc...

I would also, as a DM, take issue with the lone miner just slapping this stuff on
a hunk of ore and having it fly with no calibration, testing, etc...

> The Belter then zips off to that station and stakes a claim. The claim is
> tentatively sold to a large mining firm, which has the necessary equipment to
> completely mine out the asteroid. When the ore sample gets there, it is used as
> proof of the validity of the claim.

I like this idea - it makes a lot of sense.  But why is the mining company using
independant scouts?

> Note that the maneuver drive on the rock just accelerates. It doesn't turn
> around halfway and decelerate because that would be a waste of time and would
> require a computer. The processing station will have a mass driver that can
> decelerate the rock. Another way is to simply match velocities with the rock,
> "board" it, and install a larger (say, 2G) maneuver drive, which will slow it
> down.

Hope it doesn't miss the mass driver.  Hope the ore has enough ferrous material to
react to magnetic fields.  Hope nobody intercepts and 'fiddles' with the controls
to turn it into one of those infamous 'near-C' rocks, broadcasting the unfortunate
miner's transponder code all the way in...

A seeker has a fairly large hold - I think that it would be capable of taking a
suitable sample back without adding the complexity of sending the sample
unattended.  Also, if you consider the miner just smashing/cutting/reducing
asteroids to load up his holds, then taking the ore to a processing plant (and
paying the processors a percentage of what is extracted), it might make more
sense.  In that way, the mining corporation, or co-op, makes it's money on
processing, and perhaps in brokerage for the sale, without risking assets in
extraction or loss in exploration.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:27:50 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

On Thursday, 12 February 1998 15:09, Douglas Glatz
[SMTP:douglas@teleport.com] wrote:
> Erwin Fritz wrote:
[snip]
> > The Belter then zips off to that station and stakes a claim. The
claim
> > is
> > tentatively sold to a large mining firm, which has the necessary
> > equipment to
> > completely mine out the asteroid. When the ore sample gets there, it
is
> > used as
> > proof of the validity of the claim.
> 
> I like this idea - it makes a lot of sense.  But why is the mining
> company using
> independant scouts?

I can be terribly cheaper.  You only pay an independent scout if he
finds something.  A salaried scout would need a salary, life support, a
ship, fuel, etc.  Better to let an independent take the risks and pay
only for useful information.

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
 "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com
- --Not-the-IG Pages - http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/default.html--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:23:57 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Military Chaplains

>TravelrTNE@aol.com schrieb:
>
>> >I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.  When I=
did
>> >Basic, we had to attend chapel our first week.=20

That wasn't me.  That was Doug Berry. 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:10:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Anders Backman wrote:
 
> The PCs arrived 8 hours later to find there starship shockful of flies and
> a nearly spherical "Speedy" lying on the floor.

SSSSSSSSPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW!

Damn! another keyboard bites the dust!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:12:58 +0000
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

Andrew Akins wrote:

> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

GURPS. ;-)
Actually, I use GURPS for character stuff and a mix of all four
Traveller generations for universe-building (esp. WBH) and "macro"
gaming (PE, IS, WTH).

> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

CT (Solomani Rim and/or Spinward Marches).  But others are
useful/interesting too!
 
John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 20:27 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Systems and Milleaus...

In-Reply-To: <01bd3672$25730af0$37bd99d0@andya.cms-ia.com>

Andrew,

> I'm not trying to fan the fires...I'm just curious and want to take a poll:
>  
> a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?

They all have their good and bad points. Probably MT.

> b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?

Rebellion sort of time (1110-1120), but M0 is really growing on me.

> We're curious...do people tend to use just one ruleset and its companion
> setting - or are people doing something like what we're doing (classic
> Traveller rules, Rebellion Setting).

My last (only, actually) campaign ran between the above dates. I started with 
CT, and changed to the current systems as they were published.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:13:20 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

> Combining these two, I see a class-ridden Imperial military - the officer
> corps being filled with noble sons and daughters doing their bit for the
> Empire, with perhaps a few timeservers who couldnt get a real job, were
> blackballed by the family or whatever, and the Other Ranks being primarily
> from the poorer worlds of the Imperium, and knowing that the majority of
> them are never going to make it into Officers Country.
> 

I agree there is a lot of class distinction in the IMilitry, but too
much stratification will result in a military that will not work against
any major external threat.  Mid level technicians and line officers much
be competent and relatively motivated.

They certainly could not repulse the Solomani in the Rim War with
infighting between classes.  And there would be with that level of
strata.  

Now Captains and Admirals having to have SS to get commands is a
different story.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:38:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, David P. Summers wrote:
> >OTOH one of my heroes, Tom Uren, does. Tom Uren was in Changi between 1942
> >and 1944, and was a prisoner of war doing forced labour in a Japanese
> >factory in 1945. His view was that to drop the bomb was wrong, as neither
> >Hiroshima or Nagasaki were military targets, and in any case a
> >demonstration would have had a similar cost/benefit analysis.
> 
> It caused Japan to surrender in a matter of days.  I can't think of
> any more suitable military objective.  Anything else is a matter
> of semantics.  The fact is that the US was attacked and had
> the right to defend itself with priority to saving its own
> people.  The bombing of civilian targets was something that
> all sides did and Japan helped set a precedent for.

I hate to chime in on such an off-topic thread, but at least one of
the two cities had shipyards and both were industrial sites.  Winning
a war is just as much a matter of defeating enemy soldiers as it is
destroying the enemy's ability to produce weapons...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:21:08 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: The value of an Imperial Credit?

So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an
Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?

Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:19:38 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> Additionally, in such a rate structure, the MegaCorps would be
> dominating the most profitable trade, jump 1.  This would mean
> the typical megacorp ship would be a jump 1 and the only high
> jump ships would be fringe operators working near rifts and
> such or "Fed Ex" type carriers. 

This is a misconception, but an easy one to make.  Jump-1 merchant
ships have two great advantages -- they're the least expensive to
buy, and they can carry the highest payload to fuel ratio, where 
payload is passengers, freight, cargo, and mail.  However, there's
also a problem.  Jump-1 ships have a very short range, which means
they have fewer systems to choose from when jumping from any world
in particular.  If you need to make two jump-1 hops to reach a 
world, you lose time (and time is money -- you could have sold a
cargo and started on to the next world).  It's also harder to make
one-jump connections to worlds where you can get a lot of freight
or make a lot of money on speculative cargo.  It's very difficult
to make a profit visiting some worlds; others are both great to
sell at and to buy at.

In THUDDD-8, there was a set of six worlds which each had to be
visited once before any could be visited twice.  By using a jump-3
ship, it turned out that a more profitable speculative trade route
could be followed.  This was despite the fact that the ship cost
50% more and carried 20% less cargo than a jump-2 ship of the same
displacement.  (On the other hand, it's very possible that jump-4
would be too expensive to be worth it in that cluster.)  

It all comes down to what the local worlds are like, and I suspect 
that the most profitable market for a world's goods will often be 
more than jump-1 away.

As an example, a jump-1 ship can reach six hexes; jump-2 can reach
eighteen; jump-3, thirty-six; and jump-4, sixty.  Each time we add
drive, the odds improve that a very profitable destination is in
range.  Of course, this is countered by a increase in expenses and 
loss in revenue with each improvement to the jump drive.  If there
is a great world at one parsec, the jump-1 ship wins, hands down.
But I'd guess that for most normal sectors, there's going to be 
more profit potential for a reasonably higher-jump ship.  How much
higher would clearly depend on the worlds in question.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #152
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 153



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Annoying Language
Re: Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151
Re: Annoying Language and re: Fuzzy Logic
Re: Water Canopy
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: Army, Marines, etc.
Re: Belters
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:30:02 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

Vic&Amy Canada wrote:

> My, My, how passionate we are when confronted with the truth.  Only
> discussions about out creator can instill such ire.  More proof to me
> that deep down inside we all know that there is a creator and that we
> yearn to know the truth about Him.
>
> Vic
> iresources@juno.com
> http://www.iresources.net
> http://www.iresources.net/ifc
> http://www.evidence.net
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

 I really and truely think that this thread has stepped over the bounds at this
point.  This is the TML, and I see absolutely nothing pertaining to TRAVELLER,
the science fiction GAME in this post.

Please drop the thread, or at least take it to private mail.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:42:52 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill

>Surely some skills would be harder for a well
>rounded person to grasp and therefore would have
>a futher minus.  Say a Pilot might be -4 and a
>Demolitions expert might be -6 to the JOT skill.

The way I play JoT:

I mainly try to keep its use to the 'fuzzier' skills, like academics, arts,
and skills of that type, because of the way that I 'picture' JoT working.  The
character doesn't have training in everything, she just picks stuff up
quickly, and has lots of natural aptitude in a number of fields.  

She may not be able to write a computer program 'from scratch' at a computer
terminal, but she did do a little programming back in college, and given
enough time, and access to the proper materials, she could probably slug her
way through it.  

He's not a licensed gravitics technician, he surely doesn't know enough to get
a certification...  but, his dad did tinker with speeders a bit when he was
younger, and he would watch intently.  Given enough time to sit down and look
at a couple of diagram's on the ship's computer, he might be able to 'patch
up' the crew's Air/Raft, at least until they finish this prospecting job.

Maybe, instead of making a task harder when performed with JoT, make it more
time consuming.  Also, make sure that, if applicable, the use of the skill is
'only temporary' unless it is a spectacular success.  The woman referred to in
paragraph one might be called upon to write a virus that'll shut off the
security system in a lab the PCs are infiltrating.  She might be able to write
one, given enough time, but it'll only be able to 'spoof' the system for a
couple of minutes.  The man referred to in the second paragraph may fix the
Air/Raft, only to have it break down a few days later, and require another
fixing job.

It might also help to slide failures further on up the scale, to illustrate
what I mean:

A rating 3 pilot has some time flying under her belt, and knows considerably
more about the way planes handle.  If she were bringing in a damaged plane for
a landing, a failure might indicate a crash landing, and a spectacular failure
might mean that the plane outright crashes...

Another pilot, with JoT-5 (functioning as pilot 3) played a lot of flight
sims, and maybe piloted a light commuter aircraft a couple of times when his
girlfriend (the pilot in the above example) let him.  He has never performed a
take off or a landing.  In an emergency, he's forced to take over.  A
spectacular success indicates that he has landed the plane, a success means he
has crash landed the plane, and failure (normal or spectacular) means that
he's crashed the plane.

Just some ideas.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:54:07 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

The only problem I see with this is that there is then no incentive to use a
seeker, vice a courier. I would rather have the courier, and it's extra people
spaces, and just replace a turret weapon with a pulse laser to cut the ore. I
also think that the .01G "rock M drive" would probably best work with a
disposable chemical rocket, but my hard science is rusty, so I could be wrong.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:56:12 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

First bit is not directly Traveller related, but it leads up to a Traveller
question towards the end of the message:

Some of the previous talk about rebels and revolutionaries got me to start
thinking about the counter-culture movement of the 60s in the United States,
and its counterparts in other parts of the world (not the entirely
whitewashed, "love, flowers and LSD" romanticized version of history).  This
got me thinking further about how, at least in the 20th century, music,
literature and art are often tied in with political ideas and ideals.  The
variety of bands in the late 60s were intrinsically tied in with the
revolutionary elements of society (the terrorist organization "the Weathermen"
aka the "Weather Underground" took their name from a Bob Dylan song, a similar
organization "Up Against the Wall Motherf*****s" took their name from a
Jefferson Airplane song), a pattern which continues to this day ('nazi'/racist
skinheads in several countries tend to like the same bands, and rap groups are
tied in with the politics, and living conditions, on the streets).

In these counter-culture groups, there is a web of music, film and literature
that are all tied in together and mesh in a weird way.  And bands, or groups
of bands espouse certain beliefs that seem to hit a chord in certain people,
who already may like certain movies, books and lifestyles, or who may get
interested in these things by exposure to the bands and their fans...

Now, what I'm basically getting at is this:  What is the state of
entertainment in the Traveller universe?  Are there movies or movie analogs?
Have 'holodecks' taken the place of movies?  Does holodeck style entertainment
exist?  Is there television or a television analog?  Are there still shock-
style talkshows?  If so, are there Sayat or Spofulam types on every episode?
:^)  How are movies (or their analogs) distributed in the 3I?  What effects
does the J-Space lag have on the spread of such media (as an example, there
are those here on earth who are constantly into 'the newest thing'.  It would
be tough to get into the newest trends, fashions, etc. from the Imperium's
core when you're in the Spinward Marches).  Would there be a certain amount of
ridicule or snubbing of 'older' fashions as there is today among the style
conscious?

Is there still 'radio'?  What kind of music do you think there is this far
into the future?  Music seems to be getting more and more extreme every year
here on earth, what heights (or depths, depending on your point of view) has
music reached?  Is 'interactive' music a reality by the time of the 3rd
Imperium (what I mean by interactive music is, say, music that reacts to its
surroundings, creating a complex and intricate web of noise and music based on
a room rigged with sensors; sit in the chair, and there's a subtle shift in
the beat; answer the vid-phone, and the music switches to something mellow,
inoffensive, and quiet; temperature changes change the music subtly, or maybe
not so subtly depending upon the tastes of the purchasers)?

I don't want right or wrong type answers really, I mean, I guess I'd like to
see different types of entertainment that everybody's come up with, and more
importantly, its impact on the society of the Imperium.  Granted, there are
thousands of individual mainworlds throughout the Imperium, with a wide
variety of tech levels...  But, I like to think that there is an 'Imperial'
culture that will exist in 'startowns', fuedal technocracies, and the like, a
culture that the PCs will constantly run into again and again...

What type of stuff is going on in everyone elses' heads?

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:41:30
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Null development in key areas
>
>On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
>> Not real bright against the Soviets either, because they'd call this 'use
>> of weapons of mass destruction', and that'd guarantee them using chemical
>> weapons and nukes right back.
>
>Actually, from the context of the story (mass Soviet invasion through
>Germany) this was in the bad 'ol Evil Empire days...the Soviets proabbly
>already used them to soften up the front.
>
>Most of the planning for US forces in those days utilized strategies like
>this, since we were expecting to be vastly outnumbered by a strangely
>massively superior Soviet Army. I say strangely, because we _did_ have
>reliable intel to the effect that any Soviet advance could only get a few
>miles before running out of fuel, since they didn't have widely dispersed
>fuel depots. There was too much danger of the bulk of the fuel being
>stolen and sold on the black market. And that was only _one_ of the
>problems the Sovs would have had.
>
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

The US side also had their own problems, such as the USN thinking it had a
war-winning role, as opposed to the dull performance of just getting the US
Army to Europe.

Most of the reliable sources I've seen also imply that NATO wasnt as
outnumbered as the NATO military argued, but it suited the corporate
interests of the various militaries to argue this, sometimes by
intellectual dishonesty like including spare tanks in the Warsaw Pact tank
figures but forgetting the tanks in the replacement pools when counting up
NATO tank numbers.

Bringing this ObTrav, I can see Admirals arguing for more funds and
claiming the Reserve Fleets shouldnt be counted in combat strength, and the
Imperial Finance Ministry needing to hire a small, discreet group who know
a Particle Accelerator from a Science Sensor to go to a base with an
appropriate paperwork and do an audit of the combat readiness of the
reserve ships. Or perhaps an agreement between the Admirality and the MoF,
where if a group of half-trained reservists can get a random destroyer
started, through a series of four jumps and a gas giant refuelling, and
then complete a complete weapons test, then the Admirality really doesnt
need another 100 gigacredits, and can get by with fifty.

Of course, to avoid the crew being got at, there are no observers on board
- - just the crew, and a set of sealed orders.

Geeez, it'd be a real shit if they misjumped and had to get back across the
border in a ship that was in mothballs until last month ...

>
>
>Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:04:04 -0600
>From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
>Subject: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

>I don't want to start a flame war, but I have a sincere question:
>
>Is it fair to say that the Marines would be the combat force meant to
>"take possesion" of territory held by enemy forces and the Army is meant
>to "keep" or hold a territory once taken?
>
>The mission of the Army seems obscure to me now.  Maybe we should have
>the Navy, Marines, and Air Force absorb the role of the Army in this day
>and age.
>
>
>Vic

For what it's worth, my view is that you can only understand the
orginisation, doctrine and procurement of the 3 and a half US services
within the context of their main enemy, against whom their orginisation,
doctrine and procurement are designed, as being each other.

It isnt rational. It would have awful concequences in a real war. It leads
to many, many silly decisions.

But it's the simplest answer that answers the most facts. 

Bringing this back ObTrav, I believe that the Imperial armed forces would
have such conflicts, although the lack of a democratic government may make
them weaker. The Imperial Marines, for example, would want their own
Ortillery. The Navy would want to keep the Marines as a wholly-controlled
subsiduary. The various Planetary armed forces may well create
"Expiditionary Forces" which will only be released as a package - I am
thinking of the Australian demands for control of their own forces in WW1
and WW2 and the New Zealanders determination in WW2 not to be integrated
into ANZAC formations.

There may also be incidents of units refusing support from "unacceptable"
sources - "We are the Horse Guards. Our artillery is the Royal Horse
Artillery Sir". 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:09:49 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Annoying Language and re: Fuzzy Logic

Vic wrote:

>My, My, how passionate we are when confronted with the truth.  Only
>discussions about out creator can instill such ire.  More proof to me
>that deep down inside we all know that there is a creator and that we
>yearn to know the truth about Him.

And Greg Smith wrote:

>>And taking a look at "Christian" History suggests to me its time for
>>change, for free and enlightened human thinking unburdened by the
>>excess baggage of religion! People should take up the moral standards
>>because they are right, nor because the feel obliged.
>
>Uuuuuh, what makes a moral standard right?  You are speaking from a
>Judeo-Christian moral view point if I ever heard one, whether you
>believe it or not!

Not bad, but a wee bit flagrant, if you'll pardon my saying so.  Subtlety,
subtlety, subtlety!  You guys have been spending too much time among the
locals and are losing your style!

You know, our group could really use some extra help -- would the two of
you be interested in a training seminar on advanced email manipulation
techniques back on Glea?

M. Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:20:54 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

What you are refering to as a "Water Canopy" is an explanation used by
fundamentalist Christians (and, potentially I supposed, Muslims and Jews)
to account for a literal interpretation of the flood myth of Genesis. It is
not based on known science. More of a religious exercise of faith. Like
saying that the mana God provided in the wilderness was, in fact, caused by
asteroid showers. (Someone who couldn't tell carbyhydrates from
hydrocarbons).

Anyway, although as commonly described it is scientifically impossible, if
you are looking for a similar situation there are some possibililties you
can use.

There are certain lakes in Africa which remain largely undisturbed for many
years. Chemical layers build up within them along strict vertical
stratifications. When something happens to destroy the equilibrium (a small
earth tremour or landslide) a catastrophic turbulent reaction can happen
which causes violent mixing of the layers. In one notable incident toxic
gases which were disolved in one layer rose to the surface where they
escaped into the air, "flooded" downhill, and engulphed a village causing
many deaths.
[From an article in New Scientist called "Africa's Deadly Lakes" I think.]
     Extrapolating from this, consider a planet with a dense atmosphere and
a similar situation. Different gasses that might otherwise react kept
separate by strict stratification. If the weather is normally boring there
won't be much to disturb it. If the dynamics are solid enough, things like
starships, and jets might not make much of an impression. But, say, there
was a volcanic eruption (unlike if it was stable enough to form), or an
asteroid strike, that might provide enough mixing for a chain reaction to
start. If there was, say, a hydrogen layer and an oxygen layer, you might
get a sudden ocean after one hell of a firestorm.

     One of the planet details in (I think) the Galactic dataset (by Rob
Dean?) described a planet where a genetically manipulated bean had the side
effect of producing a noxious gas. The plant was quite successful (it
gassed its competitors!) and spread at a geometric rate. Within 5 years the
low lying areas of the planet were uninhabitable.

     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:09:00 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

At 12:22 PM 12/02/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>OTOH one of my heroes, Tom Uren, does. Tom Uren was in Changi between 1942
>>and 1944, and was a prisoner of war doing forced labour in a Japanese
>>factory in 1945. His view was that to drop the bomb was wrong, as neither
>>Hiroshima or Nagasaki were military targets, and in any case a
>>demonstration would have had a similar cost/benefit analysis.
>
>It caused Japan to surrender in a matter of days.  I can't think of
>any more suitable military objective.  Anything else is a matter
>of semantics.  The fact is that the US was attacked and had
>the right to defend itself with priority to saving its own
>people.  The bombing of civilian targets was something that
>all sides did and Japan helped set a precedent for.
>
>____________________________
>Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

My problem with the decision to use the nukes was that things had got to
the stage where there was no enormous need to rush such a decision,
especially when it was known that the nukes were a completely new phenomon.
I suspect the fact that the Soviets were about to get in on the act had
something to do with it, and giving them an object lesson quite a lot more.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:27:34 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

At 12:58 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas wrote:
>
>Considering the potential for social advancement through the military
(Marines
>notwithstanding), I would tend to think that the Imperium is _very_ military
>oriented!

Having just borrowed and read Melieu 0, I strongly agree with you. The IISS
and megacorps do so much meddling that there's bound to be quite a high
stuff-up rate, and guess who's going to be picking up the pieces? The whole
Imperial Drive relies on the military being there to back it up, and on
having lots of naive young men willing to go out and die for the profit of
others. It's John Bull Company & the Indian Army all over again.

I don't recall whether or not the Melieu 0 fans were those who found TNE
morally dubious, but I hope not because for all the looting and
decapitation raids the Coalition did, at least they honestly thought it was
for the good of the wilds populations, whereas in Cleon's New Galaxy Order
something is good if it profits the Imperium. Sure they talk about long
term good and leaving worlds to rule themselves, but that only applies when
they have joined the 3I (often because it's destroyed their economies
stability) and it would cost money to run them directly.

Sorry about the above diatribe, but I'd always thought of the (later) 3I as
a bit grubby, but not too bad as powerful governments go, but now it's just
like the empire in Space Master - explictly evil, in its early years anyway
(maybe I can convince myself that the civil war did for the families
responsible).


- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:02:09 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

At 11:04 AM 12/02/98 -0600, Vic wrote:
> Marines are generally well trained and disciplined 
>>troops,
>>though they have their moments of recklessness, it is generally 
>>controlled
>>recklessness.
>
>
>I don't want to start a flame war, but I have a sincere question:
>
>Is it fair to say that the Marines would be the combat force meant to
>"take possesion" of territory held by enemy forces and the Army is meant
>to "keep" or hold a territory once taken?
>
>The mission of the Army seems obscure to me now.  Maybe we should have
>the Navy, Marines, and Air Force absorb the role of the Army in this day
>and age.

At the very least an army defends a country, something an airforce and navy
can only do if the enemy can't get a their bases. If you are an island
nation like England then, like England historicaly you don't need much of
an army. However this policy (being followed fairly religously here in NZ)
can get you in a lot of trouble if the political scene changes quickly -
look at WWII.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:27:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

At 04:50 PM 12/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
>
>>OTOH one of my heroes, Tom Uren, does. Tom Uren was in Changi between 1942
>>and 1944, and was a prisoner of war doing forced labour in a Japanese
>>factory in 1945. His view was that to drop the bomb was wrong, as neither
>>Hiroshima or Nagasaki were military targets, and in any case a
>>demonstration would have had a similar cost/benefit analysis.
>
>It caused Japan to surrender in a matter of days.  I can't think of
>any more suitable military objective.  Anything else is a matter
>of semantics.  The fact is that the US was attacked and had
>the right to defend itself with priority to saving its own
>people.  The bombing of civilian targets was something that
>all sides did and Japan helped set a precedent for.
>
>____________________________

David and others,

This was Truman's logic. Like I said, it was his call, and I wont call his
call wrong.

Firstly, if the bombings were against military targets, then why not Tokyo
? If they were a demonstration, then why not a mountainside ?

However ... was it the Bomb that caused Japan to surrender, or the entry of
the Soviet Union into the war, which (as the Japanese saw it) closed off
their last option for a negotiated, Conditional surrender, cause the
surrender ?

If the US had merely continued the blockade but not invaded, would the
peace party have had enough support to take over the government ?

Finally, had the US offered the deal that in the end went down (i.e. the
trial of the War government, and the surrender of the Emperors divinity but
not his trial, execution or imprisonment), would the War party have
survived, given a guarantee of the safety of the Imperial Person that the
US offer would have involved, and the risks to the Imperial Person in an
invasion ?

>Summers@Alum.MIT.edu
>>From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
>
>I think that you may have confused a growing Imperium with a stable
Democracy.
>Remember, an Imperial government is just a nice word for a dictatorship.
Even
>if, and I think it unlikely in the early days of the Imperium, it was an
>enlightened form of Monarchy (implied by the Moot of the latter Imperium),
>ultimately power rested in the hands of Cleon.  He had just crowned
himself, and
>would still be consolidating power.  I seriously doubt that whatever security
>arm he had empowered with internal security of his realm would allow for
popular
>dissent.
>
>For a historical example, let us look at the Stalin purges of the late 30's.
>

The Imperium seems to respect Honour and Right Behaviour. What I am
describing is not popular dissent per se ... it is a moral argument by
someone who most people, even most military, would respect as having the
right to make their points.

I think the view would be as long as the figure is arguing in Admirals
Meetings and at Ducal Dinners and the like, and not arguing against the
Imperium but against Imperial Policy, then the dissent would be permitted.

An Imperial government can also be a democracy, or have democratic elements
- - the British Empire is the most obvious example.

>> >Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:57:04 -0700
>> >From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>> >Subject: Re: Since Nurenburg...

>As I interpreted the 'canon' sources - the Imperium forced the 'Rules of
War' on
>it's client members and free mercenary groups.  Imperial Forces, however,
were
>quite exempted from them.  As I currently run them, System Defense Forces are
>armed with nuclear weaponry, but it requires the order of an Marquis to
>interfere with a lawful planetary government (Cluster/SubSector Level
>administration), and must be confirmed by the Duke (Sector Level), at least
>after the fact...

OTOH there doesnt seem to have been much 'atrocity warfare' in the Frontier
Wars. I suspect it is one of those agreed things, not formalised.

>Considering the potential for social advancement through the military
(Marines
>notwithstanding), I would tend to think that the Imperium is _very_ military
>oriented!
>

I think that doesnt really fit given the numbers kicked around for the
Imperial military expenditures, it's lack of aggressive wars after the
initial expansion ended, and the high relative cost of equipment vs
personell, especially in the Navy.

There just wont be that *many* people involoved in the Imperial forces.

>douglas
>
>Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:21:08 -0500
>From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
>Subject: The value of an Imperial Credit?
>
>So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
>Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an
>Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?
>
>Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)
>

I crunched out the numbers for a D starport TL8 world using Striker book 2,
and translated the US average income ($20 000) into the Cr income, and got
a number of about forty US dollars to one Imperial Credit.

Personally, I think the exchange rates would be more extreme ... a TL8
world has a wish list a mile long for TL12 goods, and not a hell of a lot
of exports.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:06:39 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re: Army, Marines, etc.

iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada) wrote:

>Is it fair to say that the Marines would be the combat force meant to
>"take possesion" of territory held by enemy forces and the Army is meant
>to "keep" or hold a territory once taken?

It's not exact, but that's the essential way of it.

The Marine Corps doctrine of "a force in readiness" dictates that they be
able to respond to a threat anywhere in the world within 48 hours, bringing
everything needed to sustain operations for a minimum of 2 weeks.
Naturally, additional supplies and munitions can be provided for longer
stays, but that's what they bring initially.

The Army has the raw manpower needed for large scale follow on operations,
be it static defense, offence, etc. This is not to say that the Army hasn't
secured a "beachhead" or two in their day, but their response time is
generally slower, and their supply train takes a while to get moving.

Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:09:38 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Belters

     One of my TNE campaigns centers on an ex belter and his seeker.  In it,
an Aubani  Corporation was in league w/ the Aubani Merchant Marine/ Belt
Mining Division.   They joint owned the ship (40/60 respectively).  After he
hit the strike during character creation and w/ the rise of the Reformation
Coalition from the Dawn League, the AMM decided to liquidate the 80+ year old
ship and invest on new ones.  The corp kept their 40% gained about 10% due to
a contractual clause.  The rest reverted to the Belter (and indirectly through
contacts and "special adventures") to the other players.  I converted their
ship DMs into what % of the ship they owned. This way, the Belter didn't get
his own ship (but a large chunk of it) and all the other players own (about
4-5%) of the ship, giving them all an interest in it. Further there's a corp
that owns near half the ship and demands their hunk of the profits (and a
small freight operation). The players are hoping to get another strike or
something so they buy the rest.
    Ob the topic at hand.  Belters could both work for a corp or have worked
for one.  One thing to consider is the "mining" laser.  It's always been
described as a regular laser turret? Is this reasonable? Wouldn't it be more
in line w/ a cutting laser, not one that releases pulses for damaging a ship,
no?   Kinda like a souped up laser comm?  Until now,i've just been using the
"sample/claim then notify" method (i've been making samples pretty big,
necessitating the use of the ore bay).  
    As for belter equipment.  There is the TL9 Prospectors Buggy by
Idiot/Savant at Lewis Roberts BARD pages. It's a TNE FFS design of the one in
Beltstrike.  
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard/vera/vera0022.html.  

Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:04:00 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

At 02:13 PM 12/02/98 -0600, Deadeye wrote:
>> Combining these two, I see a class-ridden Imperial military - the officer
>> corps being filled with noble sons and daughters doing their bit for the
>> Empire, with perhaps a few timeservers who couldnt get a real job, were
>> blackballed by the family or whatever, and the Other Ranks being primarily
>> from the poorer worlds of the Imperium, and knowing that the majority of
>> them are never going to make it into Officers Country.
>> 
>
>I agree there is a lot of class distinction in the IMilitry, but too
>much stratification will result in a military that will not work against
>any major external threat.  Mid level technicians and line officers much
>be competent and relatively motivated.
>
>They certainly could not repulse the Solomani in the Rim War with
>infighting between classes.  And there would be with that level of
>strata.  

I wouldn't bet on that. The Royal Navy was very good at fighting, if not
ship design, and it had a very stratified system, with discipline that was
brutal even by world naval standards along with enforced pressing. 

The old CT book (I forget the name) that detailed the Gazelles mentioned
the risk of mutiny and how the officers' quarters and control areas are
seperate from the crew quarters. Besides what's the point of being a knight
or noble if it doesn't do you or your children some good.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:04:03 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151

At 10:41 PM 12/02/98, Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>
>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>>Most of the planning for US forces in those days utilized strategies like
>>this, since we were expecting to be vastly outnumbered by a strangely
>>massively superior Soviet Army. I say strangely, because we _did_ have
>>reliable intel to the effect that any Soviet advance could only get a few
>>miles before running out of fuel, since they didn't have widely dispersed
>>fuel depots. There was too much danger of the bulk of the fuel being
>>stolen and sold on the black market. And that was only _one_ of the
>>problems the Sovs would have had.
>>
>The US side also had their own problems, such as the USN thinking it had a
>war-winning role, as opposed to the dull performance of just getting the US
>Army to Europe.
>
>Most of the reliable sources I've seen also imply that NATO wasnt as
>outnumbered as the NATO military argued, but it suited the corporate
>interests of the various militaries to argue this, sometimes by
>intellectual dishonesty like including spare tanks in the Warsaw Pact tank
>figures but forgetting the tanks in the replacement pools when counting up
>NATO tank numbers.
>
Yes, it was funny the way the USAF used say how good their planes and
pilots were on one hand, and then say how many Soviet planes there were and
how the new Soviet planes were so dangerous on the other. All the while
(because airpower is the way, the light and the truth) downplaying the real
problem - that Soviet armoured divsions carried SAMs like a cat carries fleas.

>Bringing this ObTrav, I can see Admirals arguing for more funds and
>claiming the Reserve Fleets shouldnt be counted in combat strength, and the
>Imperial Finance Ministry needing to hire a small, discreet group who know
>a Particle Accelerator from a Science Sensor to go to a base with an
>appropriate paperwork and do an audit of the combat readiness of the
>reserve ships. Or perhaps an agreement between the Admirality and the MoF,
>where if a group of half-trained reservists can get a random destroyer
>started, through a series of four jumps and a gas giant refuelling, and
>then complete a complete weapons test, then the Admirality really doesnt
>need another 100 gigacredits, and can get by with fifty.

And of course claiming that a newly contacted PE is a threar with no
evidence one way or the other, or that it naval tonnage is x Magatons and
TL11, neglecting to mantion that the TL11 ships only constitute 5% of the
fleet the rest being old TL9-10 ships that would be lucky to be called
spaceworthy in the 3I, let alone combatworthy.

>Bringing this back ObTrav, I believe that the Imperial armed forces would
>have such conflicts, although the lack of a democratic government may make
>them weaker. The Imperial Marines, for example, would want their own
>Ortillery. The Navy would want to keep the Marines as a wholly-controlled
>subsiduary. The various Planetary armed forces may well create
>"Expiditionary Forces" which will only be released as a package - I am
>thinking of the Australian demands for control of their own forces in WW1
>and WW2 and the New Zealanders determination in WW2 not to be integrated
>into ANZAC formations.

Understandable of the Marines, afterall who wants their support to suddenly
disappear because some SDBs just lifted off their hiding places on the
local moon and the commander of your ortillery support wanted a bit of glory.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #153
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Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 154



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Since Nurenburg...
Re: Imperial Military
Re: Starship economics
ImpMarOrtillery
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: ImpMarOrtillery
Religion in Mileu 0
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: Starship economics
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: IFF it worked that way...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:06:07 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> > The lone Belter, with his seeker, finds some ore. Using special equipment on
> > the seeker, he extracts a large sample of said ore. He ventures out in his vacc
> > suit and puts a beacon on the rock. The beacon identifies the ore as his. He
> > then installs a small 0.01G maneuver drive, with a couple of days fuel. This is
> > used to move the ore sample toward the nearest processing station. He doesn't
> > use his cargo hold for this because a believable sample will be too large to
> > fit there.
>
> a small .01 G M-drive, fuel to feed it, a computer to control it, sensors to let
> it track it progress and compare it to where it should be, etc...
>

Yes. This unit would need a minimal power plant (because that's where the M drive fuel
comes from). I'm not sure that it would need a computer, since it doesn't need to
steer. It's basically an unguided missile under constant acceleration. By the same
reasoning, sensors aren't needed.

The Belter, once he's attached the unit to the rock, would link it to his seeker's
computer (there are a number of ways to do this). He then gets an approved vector from
the traffic control folks, aims his rock in the appropriate direction, and fires it
up.

> I would also, as a DM, take issue with the lone miner just slapping this stuff on
> a hunk of ore and having it fly with no calibration, testing, etc...

These units should (must!) be cheap, and there fore plentiful. I was thinking of them
as akin to disposable lighters. If you buy one and it's broken, you just throw it away
and slap another one on. Of course, this may not be reasonable given the prices for
M-drives.

> > The Belter then zips off to that station and stakes a claim. The claim is
> > tentatively sold to a large mining firm, which has the necessary equipment to
> > completely mine out the asteroid. When the ore sample gets there, it is used as
> > proof of the validity of the claim.
>
> I like this idea - it makes a lot of sense.  But why is the mining company using
> independant scouts?

Because it's cheaper than paying employees to do it for you.  After all, if a belter
does it, you don't have to pay him unless he actually finds something and only then if
the find is worthwhile! For this reason, the belters are better motivated than
employees would be.

> > Note that the maneuver drive on the rock just accelerates. It doesn't turn
> > around halfway and decelerate because that would be a waste of time and would
> > require a computer. The processing station will have a mass driver that can
> > decelerate the rock. Another way is to simply match velocities with the rock,
> > "board" it, and install a larger (say, 2G) maneuver drive, which will slow it
> > down.
>
> Hope it doesn't miss the mass driver.  Hope the ore has enough ferrous material to
> react to magnetic fields.  Hope nobody intercepts and 'fiddles' with the controls
> to turn it into one of those infamous 'near-C' rocks, broadcasting the unfortunate
> miner's transponder code all the way in...
>

Missing the mass driver, or not having enough ferrous material to be handled by the
driver are problems that are solved by simply getting a faster ship to slow it down
using the other method I mentioned. The 'near-C' rock danger issue is small, since
it's not going THAT fast, and everybody in the system will know where it is and where
it's headed.

> A seeker has a fairly large hold - I think that it would be capable of taking a
> suitable sample back without adding the complexity of sending the sample
> unattended.  Also, if you consider the miner just smashing/cutting/reducing
> asteroids to load up his holds, then taking the ore to a processing plant (and
> paying the processors a percentage of what is extracted), it might make more
> sense.  In that way, the mining corporation, or co-op, makes it's money on
> processing, and perhaps in brokerage for the sale, without risking assets in
> extraction or loss in exploration.
>

That's true. However, it only works for small-volume rocks, which the processing plant
can't be bothered to go out and mine. For large (100,000 tons, say) asteroids, they
will send out their own large-scale mining teams. In those cases, the method I propose
makes more sense, since larger samples are better indicators of ore content.

Also, having the belter chop up his own samples (before putting them into his hold)
introduces the risk that the belter will salt the samples. Sending a large, untouched
rock directly to the plant minimizes the risk of salting.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:55:28 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Since Nurenburg...

> 
> Considering a Naval warship - even a Destroyer - has enough firepower
> to devastate an entire planet

Hmmm, 

I've always considered this to be a difficult-to-accept assertion.  

Exactly what weapons does it have (the 33000 ton destroyer which
is about 155m long) have that can "devastate" anything.  Nuc missiles
yes (vs. planetary point defenses no).  750 MJ lasers?  No significant
effect.

Heck, even a type T spinal mount only has about a 0.869 kiloton yield.
(That's about 869 tons TNT equivalent.  Avery small nuclear scale
blast, smaller than most modern tac nukes.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:03:23 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Military

Class distinctions and startifications didn't stop the RN from
ruling the seas for well over two centuries.  I imagine that
the feudal Imperial system (which I do not feel is a dictatorship)
would  develop very sophisticated ideas of how sucha social structure
could be applied.  Nobles enhanced in their abilities to govern
through the use of computer interfaces, genetic engineering, etc...

The officers drawn from these ranks would probably be very capable
individuals in most cases, given the fact that the Imperium has lasted
1100+ years.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:14:27 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:07:09 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> The figures already include a 6.25% profit on the owner's investment.
> Where it deviates from canon is in the life support costs (lower) and in
> including some non-standard insurance payments, which makes the ticket
> prices a bit too low and the freight charges a bit too high. They also
> use QSDS 1.5 designs and prices; I don't know how much difference FF&S2
> makes to the cost and cargo space of ships.
 
> >you would have (for one jump shipments, presumably multiple jumps
> >would just add in the component jumps).....
 
> Right, assuming there are appropiately spaced intermediate systems.

> >Distance    Cost
> >Jump-1       880
> >Jump-2      1500
> >Jump-3      2080
> >Jump-4      2710
> >Jump-5      3480
> >Jump-6      4600
> > 
> >Right?

OK, so divide these numbers by 1.05 to get
Jump-1       840
Jump-2      1425
Jump-3      1980
Jump-4      2580
Jump-5      3315
Jump-6      4380

> Jump-5 would be a jump-3 (1,660) plus a jump-2 (1,170) = 2,830 (assuming
> the freight is not time-critical). Jump-6 would be two jumps-3 = 3,320.

Well, I am assuming that the person shipping would chart what jumps he
want to make and decide (assuming intermediate worlds are avialble)
whether to send it by more smaller jumps or fewer larger jumps.  He
could look at two jump-3's for 3960 vs one jump 6 for 4380 and decide
whether he wants it to take one week or two.  Now one jump 4 is cheaper
than two jump-2's.  Either jump-2 business would exist when jump 4
ships aren't avialble, or perhaps there might be a premium on higher
jump cargo to reflect the fact that it is not only going further, but
getting there fast.  The would meant that higher jump ships would have
more of a profit and explain why the magacorps dominated them.

> >Yeah, I have always assumed there are cargo ships the size of Imperial
> >Dreadnaughts 
> 
> Me too. At the moment I assume that 99% of all shipping is by such
> "super-freighters" and that every ship we've ever seen described in
> Traveller publications (up to and including the 5000 T Hercules
> freighter) is part of the remaining 1% "luxury trade".

I wouldn't go quite that far (after all, we have to disagree on
something :-)
I would say that anything shipped in large amounts (basically anything
you
can see filling a ship by itself or that you see filling train car after
train car, like grain, etc.) and most trade between high pop worlds
(where
the volume can fill something like that) would go that way.  I would
guess
80-90% in volume but perphaps only 30-50% in value.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:18:10 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: ImpMarOrtillery

Rupert Boleyn asketh:

>ObTrav: Do the Imp Marines own their Ortillery, or do they get it 
>when the Navy not busy chasing off the last fleeing scout ship?

Ortillery is not integral at the Task Force (Battalion) level, but each TF has
an attached Meson battery, so the grunts get plenty of fire support (one of my
favorite Dave Nilsen quotes is "When the Marines arrive, the party is over --
everybody outta the pool!"). If the Marines need Ortillery for a specific
mission, it is attached. Marine Task Forces are highly mission oriented, and
their organization reflects this.

On the other hand, the 4518th Lift Infantry Brigade (Duke of Regina's Own
Huscarls) has Ortillery (3 system defense boats) as an integral part of their
TO&E. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:22:42 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

> My problem with the decision to use the nukes was that things had got to
> the stage where there was no enormous need to rush such a decision,
> especially when it was known that the nukes were a completely new phenomon.
> I suspect the fact that the Soviets were about to get in on the act had
> something to do with it, and giving them an object lesson quite a lot more.
>
> -- Rupert Boleyn
> "If in doubt - wipe it out."

Hindsight is 20/20.  The comfort that 50 years of temporal separation gives us
from the actual events softens the emotions that were running at the time.
Remember, the war started with what was effectively a surprise attack.  Remember
the _huge_ prisoner attrition that we suffered in the Pacific theater.  Remember
the huge losses that we took on many of the islands, and the propensity toward
suicide attacks that we were facing.  Remember that the war had consumed
American lives for 3 years (more if you count the AVG operating in China).

ObTraveller - How often does the Imperium have to 'spank' planetary governments,
and how do you think they do so?  Sanctions, Embargo, military action?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:24:03 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> The only problem I see with this is that there is then no incentive to use a
> seeker, vice a courier. I would rather have the courier, and it's extra people
> spaces, and just replace a turret weapon with a pulse laser to cut the ore. I
> also think that the .01G "rock M drive" would probably best work with a
> disposable chemical rocket, but my hard science is rusty, so I could be wrong.
>

Good points. I can't remember if the seeker is cheaper than the courier. I don't
have my stuff with me right now. Perhaps the extra cargo space on the seeker is
really used to store those M-drive contraptions?

As for the exact nature of the M-drive, it'll probably depend on what set of rules
one uses for the design of the beast. However, if it is a simple chemical rocket,
you then need to haul fuel (in the cargo hold of the seeker) but you don't need
the power plant hooked up to the M-drive.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:48:09 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Don't ya think carriers have bars on them?

Anyway that was humor:)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:26:01 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> The only problem I see with this is that there is then no incentive to use a
> seeker, vice a courier. I would rather have the courier, and it's extra people
> spaces, and just replace a turret weapon with a pulse laser to cut the ore. I
> also think that the .01G "rock M drive" would probably best work with a
> disposable chemical rocket, but my hard science is rusty, so I could be wrong.
>

I just thought of a reason why you'd want the seeker. The seeker has more cargo
space than the courier, so it'd be the choice of starship for prospectors who
venture into systems where there is no processing station. Those brave souls would
have to haul their ores back themselves, and across jump space, so they'd need a
large hold.

For belters in a system with a processing station, though, seekers aren't the best
choice.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:50:27 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

>From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>

>I like this idea - it makes a lot of sense.  But why is the mining 
company using
>independant scouts?

It may be less expensive to pay belters for claims then to go through 
the expense of buying the equipment and hiring the personel to search 
for high ore content asteroids.

PZ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:32:59 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

Michael Kent wrote:

> So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
> Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an
> Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?
>
> Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)

Back in the CT days, I figured it at around US$2.00 is Cr1.00. That was
based on the costs of the vehicles and equipment in the little black
books.

Today, I'm not as sure, but I still use that guideline.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:00:47 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

In a message dated 2/12/98 12:28:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU writes:

<< Actually Everclear is 200 proof, unless they sell a toned down version
 where you live.  >>

One of the very few alcoholic drinks I can tolerate the taste of is something
called "Purple Passion".  It is Everclear;  I am not sure of the proof, but it
is not 200.  It tastes like grape juice, but I can never seem to remember
finishing one...  :-)

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:00:12 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: ImpMarOrtillery

At 07:18 PM 12/02/98 EST, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn asketh:
>
>>ObTrav: Do the Imp Marines own their Ortillery, or do they get it 
>>when the Navy not busy chasing off the last fleeing scout ship?
>
>Ortillery is not integral at the Task Force (Battalion) level, but each TF
has
>an attached Meson battery, so the grunts get plenty of fire support (one
of my
>favorite Dave Nilsen quotes is "When the Marines arrive, the party is over --
>everybody outta the pool!"). If the Marines need Ortillery for a specific
>mission, it is attached. Marine Task Forces are highly mission oriented, and
>their organization reflects this.

Neat, but what about lower TLs when Meson Guns aren't really battlefield
mobile? 

>On the other hand, the 4518th Lift Infantry Brigade (Duke of Regina's Own
>Huscarls) has Ortillery (3 system defense boats) as an integral part of their
>TO&E. 

I think I'd like to be with them rather than someone else, then. Attached
support is all very well, but it has a habit of coming 'unattached' just
when you need it most. I can just imagine being told "Once the system space
defences have been suppressed your Battalion will have a DE and two
Gazelles as Ortillery support." Then after you've just got yourself well
engaged by the locals and they're mounting a counter attack you get a
message over the lascomm "We're breaking orbit to engage news bogeys
reported incoming", as the enemy having some brains has ordered some
previously hidden SDBs to mount a diversion. On reminding the Navy
commander of his role as fire support you are told "That only applies AFTER
the space defences are suppressed, which they clearly are not."

Of course this depends on how good a relationship the Navy has with the
Marines, and just how much the Navy really belives that capturing planets
is, compared with destorying ships. It's like the arguments over the use of
air power in WWII, with the pro-bomber faction claiming that the Germans
would've done better if they'd put more effort into strategic bombing, and
others saying that the allies wasted a lot of resources and men with their
bombing campaign, and would've better spent the effort on more support for
their armies.

 

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:17:56 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Religion in Mileu 0

I reposted this without the reference to CE/BCE in the subject line.

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

[snip tp keep digesters happy :-)   ]

> Obtrav...  have any of the Emperors or Empresses been religious?
Nothing said
> either way, but if some were, it would be somewhat likely that they
would try
> to enforce their beliefs on their subjects no?  And would great
grandson
> Emperor or Empress apostasize those beliefs in a couple hundred years?

Which leads back to one of my first posts since coming back onto the
list,
Religious Careers!  I'm working on it, I'm working on it.  I've decided
to break
it up into two things.  First, the bares bones generic chargen tables
for
different types of religious orders - for use with whatever religion.
Second, a
Third Imperium Church on the scale proportional to the Roman Catholic
Church.
This second is whats taking up so much time.  But I have a question you
all might
be able to help me with.  I'm going to strongly base this church on the
Roman
Catholic Church.  I am leaning very strongly to making it based on
Judeo-Christianity.  Question concerns Traveller canon, not the other
kind:

Is there any canon about the christianity from Terra?
(I have only T4 stuff)

I've got no problem having christianity survive to 2099 or whenever
contact was
(-2422 Imperium Calender), but would it survive the collapse of the
First
Imperium?
Would it spread into the Rule of Man?  (I'm not concerned about the Long
Night).

I notice that Vilani contact on Sylea extends back to 8000, so I should
probably
incorporate some Vilani beliefs into whatever religion survived on
Sylea.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:07:00 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

In an article in a magazine, it was attributed to Marc Miller saying that
each imperial credit was worth $2 US.  This was written in 1994 or so.  

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:

> Michael Kent wrote:
> 
> > So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
> > Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an
> > Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?
> >
> > Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)
> 
> Back in the CT days, I figured it at around US$2.00 is Cr1.00. That was
> based on the costs of the vehicles and equipment in the little black
> books.
> 
> Today, I'm not as sure, but I still use that guideline.
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:26:49 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:19:38 -0600, Steven Bonneville
<bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
> > Additionally, in such a rate structure, the MegaCorps would be
> > dominating the most profitable trade, jump 1.  This would mean
> > the typical megacorp ship would be a jump 1 and the only high
> > jump ships would be fringe operators working near rifts and
> > such or "Fed Ex" type carriers. 

> This is a misconception, but an easy one to make.  Jump-1 merchant
> ships have two great advantages -- they're the least expensive to
> buy, and they can carry the highest payload to fuel ratio, where 
> payload is passengers, freight, cargo, and mail.  However, there's
> also a problem.  Jump-1 ships have a very short range, which means
> they have fewer systems to choose from when jumping from any world
> in particular.  If you need to make two jump-1 hops to reach a 
> world, you lose time .

Well, in fact both a jump 6 and a jump 1 ship take 1 weeks to
make a jump.  The jump 1 ship just makes more money at it.
Sure, there are worlds that aren't jump-1 accessible, so
those would be relegated to fringe, high jump,
carries.  When the magacorps move in, they will snap
up the more profitable business.  The background presents
jump 1 ships as just trying to eke out with the most 
unprofitable business when they are the most profitable
freighters out there.

> (and time is money -- you could have sold a
> > cargo and started on to the next world)

I'm not sure what speculative cargo has to do with the cost
of freight.  All that would mean that you have different
types of ships dominating different types of shipping, which
you also don't see....

> It all comes down to what the local worlds are like, and I suspect 
> that the most profitable market for a world's goods will often be 
> more than jump-1 away.

Yeah, but still, the mega corps will take the trade from the
bottom up (taking the most profitable low jump trips) rather
than as presented in the background.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:28:58 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> Yes. This unit would need a minimal power plant (because that's where the M drive fuel
> comes from). I'm not sure that it would need a computer, since it doesn't need to
> steer. It's basically an unguided missile under constant acceleration. By the same
> reasoning, sensors aren't needed.

I totally disagree here.  We are not talking about a balanced hull that with an integral
drive onto a ballistic trajectory.  You are talking about slapping a drive unit on a
chunk of rock and having it guide itself into a mass driver.  Even at the height of the
drive debates (that I've followed), there has always been agreement (I think) that the
drive _force_ comes from the M-drive itself, that it is not a field effect.  As an
example of what I am trying to say, go outside, get a chunk of rock.  Balance it on a
pencil (I'll even be nice and say use the eraser side) and walk across the room.  If you
can do it, you are either luckier or much more cooridinated than most people (and you
should consider a career as a rock jock!)

This does not even take into consideration trying to counter any residual spin that the
asteroid already has.

>
>
> The Belter, once he's attached the unit to the rock, would link it to his seeker's
> computer (there are a number of ways to do this). He then gets an approved vector from
> the traffic control folks, aims his rock in the appropriate direction, and fires it
> up.

Considering how easy it is to turn a not-very-large asteroid into a orbital weapon, I
would think that _any_ attempts at placing drive units on asteroids would be
discouraged.  With predijuce.

> >
> > Hope it doesn't miss the mass driver.  Hope the ore has enough ferrous material to
> > react to magnetic fields.  Hope nobody intercepts and 'fiddles' with the controls
> > to turn it into one of those infamous 'near-C' rocks, broadcasting the unfortunate
> > miner's transponder code all the way in...
> >
>
> Missing the mass driver, or not having enough ferrous material to be handled by the
> driver are problems that are solved by simply getting a faster ship to slow it down
> using the other method I mentioned. The 'near-C' rock danger issue is small, since
> it's not going THAT fast, and everybody in the system will know where it is and where
> it's headed.

.01 G may not sound like much, but give it enough time (i.e. the travel time from the
asteroid belt to the Habitable Zone) and you got a screaming rock...  For that matter,
tho' - if the miner was annoyed with the mining company (a dispute over credit) and
'missed' the mass driver by 'just a bit', as well as neglecting to sign his work (with
his transponder), the orbital facilities would be very vulnerable.  I'm not just talking
about the mass driver control shack either...

> > A seeker has a fairly large hold - I think that it would be capable of taking a
> > suitable sample back without adding the complexity of sending the sample
> > unattended.  Also, if you consider the miner just smashing/cutting/reducing
> > asteroids to load up his holds, then taking the ore to a processing plant (and
> > paying the processors a percentage of what is extracted), it might make more
> > sense.  In that way, the mining corporation, or co-op, makes it's money on
> > processing, and perhaps in brokerage for the sale, without risking assets in
> > extraction or loss in exploration.
> >
>
> That's true. However, it only works for small-volume rocks, which the processing plant
> can't be bothered to go out and mine. For large (100,000 tons, say) asteroids, they
> will send out their own large-scale mining teams. In those cases, the method I propose
> makes more sense, since larger samples are better indicators of ore content.
>
> Also, having the belter chop up his own samples (before putting them into his hold)
> introduces the risk that the belter will salt the samples. Sending a large, untouched
> rock directly to the plant minimizes the risk of salting.

If the miner only gets a percentage of what is extracted, salting won't do any good.
It's what comes out of the rock that counts.

Don't get me wrong.  I like you basic idea - I just have a problem with the sample size
and the way the sample is delivered.

Try this, the mining company uses a large ship with a 'spinal mount' of a mass driver to
throw pre-processed slugs of asteroid to a central processing station (since it's a
ballistic trajectory, no in-flight guidence would be necessary, and the velocity would be
set by the 'throwing' mass driver and not subject to change).  I can see the smaller
'lone' prospectors surveying asteroids for value, then selling their location to the
processing units - but being paid when they are processed.  And I can also see the 'lone'
prospectors out breaking up their own ore and delivering it to the processing units - and
being paid spot cash for the value of the ore.

This way the smelters are kept busy (by both the 'company' men and independant
contractors), the belters get paid both on the spot (drinking money) and over time as
their larger claims are processed.  A belter may even keep a 'large' claim for himself to
mine out - I imagine they would get a much larger share of the ore they bring in
themselves, as opposed to what they sell off.

douglas


- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:34:10 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:09:00 +1300, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
> My problem with the decision to use the nukes was that things had got to
> the stage where there was no enormous need to rush such a decision,
> especially when it was known that the nukes were a completely new phenomon.

Peole were dying and the Japanese will still producing war
material.  You hold back and they either get tougher or
counter attack.

> I suspect the fact that the Soviets were about to get in on the act had
> something to do with it

We were the ones insisting that they get in the war.

>, and giving them an object lesson quite a lot more.

It is easy to condemn people if you are able to do it
simply for what you speculate might have been their
reasons.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:11:29 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

Dan Lane wrote:

>And this topic makes a wonderful topics for a Traveller adventure,
>or at least a scenario.  This is fundamentally a great concept for
>a "haunted" sort of character.  Very introspective.

Yah, you could pair him with the NPC I described earlier.  He would go
around being haunted and the NPC would constantly be trying to figure ways
to help him get over it.

When the PC gets cornered on the incident (and unless it was covered up,
(s)he will), the NPC will be getting into all kinds of trouble "defending"
him.  I can just see it, the two of them will be getting into all kinds of
fights because the NPC just won't let it go.  The PC will have to work
doubly hard to avoid those kinds of situations, but, it won't do him any
good.

I love this idea.  Or the PC/NPC rolls could be reversed.  Shoot, they could
even both be PC's or even NPC crew members that constantly get the PC crew
members into trouble.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #154
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 12 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 155



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What CE means to me
Re: Annoying Language
Re: What CE means
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
A question about grav compensations
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: Patriotism
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: 3D sectors
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
US Nuking of Japan
Re: 3D sectors
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Patriotism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:17:49 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>I was brought up to view the above types (especially anthropologists) as
>bleeding heart liberals, etc, etc, so all this does is strengthen is
>'CE/BCE is PC' position.

Before we start painting with too broad a brush, I know some archiologist
and anthropologists who are as politically conservative as you can get.
People are different and to say they are all anything is almost certainly
wrong.

>And to think that some people can't see what a big deal the 3I calendar
>reform is!

See my earlier post.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:36:35 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Annoying Language

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>That's a very 'western' POV, you know. In fact most of the Roman culture
>and civilization was not lost but alive and well in the Eastern Roman
>(Byzantine) Empire, until the Arabs, Crusaders and Italian city sataes did
>for it.

I thought we were talking about the dark ages, medieval question.  These
terms are not just time referents but place sensitive as well.  And
specifically deal with events in Europe.  In order to discuss the topic, you
must use a very 'western' POV.  If we were speaking of the eastern Romans we
would have used Byzantine, which is also place/culture as well as time
specific.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:56:16 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means

Bloo wrote:

>...  Why don't we take 001-2001 A.D. as an opportunity to
>fix our calendars and all the tinkering the Julian, Gregorian, etc. have
>caused, add a year 0 as there ought to be, etc., and be done with the
>damn thing.

Well, the fact that there is not a problem with the calendar we have may
enter into the picture.  :-)

Our current calendar has an accuracy of 1.000000766583.  In fact, under the
calendar we currently use, there will be no need to adjust anything until
the year 3,571.  Although, if I were in charge, I'd wait until the year
3,572.  Then the change would be a simple matter of skipping a leap year.

Many think that 01/01/2,000 will mark the beginning of the 20th century.
This just isn't the case.  Instead, it marks the beginning of the last year
of the 19th.  The new century and millennium will begin 01/01/2001.  The
best way to see what I'm talking about is by comparing time measurement to
any other measurement system.  Mathematics is the language of such things.

Time measurement is like any other system of measurement.  0 is a point in
all other dimensional systems.  It is an imaginary construct, it doesn't do
anything except separate the preceding from the following.  In mathematics,
a point is defined as a dimensionless geometric object having no properties
except location.

The introduction of a year 0 will complicate things unnecessarily.  To find
the difference in any two dates weather they are B.C. or A.D. or one of each
is simple, just subtract the first date from the last date.  With the
introduction of a year 0, the situation is complicated by the need to add 1
year to this if one of the dates is B.C and the other is A.D.  That's why I
never could understand the addition of a year 0 in M4.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:48:56 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:27:14, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> This was Truman's logic. Like I said, it was his call, and I wont call his
> call wrong.

> Firstly, if the bombings were against military targets, then why not Tokyo
> ? If they were a demonstration, then why not a mountainside ?

> However ... was it the Bomb that caused Japan to surrender, or the entry of
> the Soviet Union into the war, which (as the Japanese saw it) closed off
> their last option for a negotiated, Conditional surrender, cause the
> surrender ?

It doesn't matter.  The US was attacked and had a right to
do what it thought would save it's soldiers lives by bringing
the war to an end.  If it felt that both getting the USSR into
the war an using nukes was the most reliable way to do this.
It had every right.  It doesn't matter which one worked.
It also doesn't matter what other approaches "might"
have worked.  If the US didn't want to gamble on them,
then it doesn't have to.  The US didn't have bombs to
waste on demonstration explosions and I'm not sure
how you embargo all of Japanese occupied China.

In anycase, the US can hardly be seperated out for
condemnation for using the tatics (bombing cities)
that their foe helped initiate and everyone in
the war did.  The fact that the use of nukes to do
it did have a reasonable expitation of ending the
war quickly only makes if more justifiable. 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:08:33 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: A question about grav compensations

This was originally posted during the recent debate on the TML. I am
 really interested in getting dome resopnse from the more knowledgable
people out there, so that I can finish up this adventure. Any comments
or ideas would be truely helpful.

I'm thinking along the lines of a cruise ship and one of the Features of the
cruise is the experience of refueling in a gas giant atmosphere. Ok, what my
question is, is what are the effects of a high gee world, say Saturn, or
Jupiter on the passengers of the ship? I've always, before thought of it
like a roller coaster ride with the crew heavily strapped into their seats
and the ship buffeted about, but this won't do for this scenario. So I want
to put in some extra grav compensation, but TL constraints say that 3 gee is
the limit ( for a M:0 campaign setting). Any of the real Brains out there
have any thoughts on what the ride would be like?

Thanks
Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:19:52 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Deadeye

Have you checked out Joe Heck's web page? I don't remember the adress but I
believe he was working on a 3d campaign at one time and had a number of
links to 3d mapping software. There might be some thing there that can be
used. One link went to a demo program that (don't hit me gang I'm sorry!)
looked a lot like the Star Trek console maps but could do some zooming and
moving, sorry again I can't remember the name, but it was VERY good looking
on screen, at any rate.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: deadeye@ebicom.net <deadeye@ebicom.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: 3D sectors


>Chview is great but doens't allow mapping of dust clouds or star/sysem
>images of the resolution I want.  My final product needs to look like a
>work of art.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:33:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

 
> > I have read numerous statements to the effect that refuelling at a gas
> > giant is a bad idea. I assume this is because it takes a lot of resources
> > to get to a gas giant, which in turn garners you more cost than just buying
> > the dang fuel at regular prices. Can the same argument be made about

This, I belive is right for civilian ops. For military ops it makes
less sense than that. The canon idea (seems to me) is that an
attacking fleet would want to jump to the GG and refuel before
proceeding to attack the main world (or whatever tha target is).

Because the GG has strategic importance, it will be defended. So why
would a fleet jump in, lose any surprise attacking the mainworld,
and present itself for attack during the (dangerous?) fueling
operations. Basically it makes far more sense to just attack the
main target--if they choose to defend the GG, it is that much
easier. If you are concerned about not having fuel to jump out,
refuel J-1 from the target with tankers.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:30:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

At 04:21 pm 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
>Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is
between an
>Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?
>
>Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)

	IIRC, somebody (Hans?) published an analysis about a year ago
pegging it at approximately Cr1=$3
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:21:30 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

At 09:12 am 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote:

>>While I've not been privy to any of the formal investigations,
I
>>understand he did in fact direct his wingman to visually
identify
>>the bogeys. Only after his wingman positively confirmed that
the
>>targets were Soviet-built Hinds did he give the fire order.
>
>   Not to contradict you (since you are in contact with the
primary source),
>but I was under the impression that the incident in Iraq
involved what were
>thought to be Hip-Es (the gunship variant of the Soviet "Hip"
transport
>helicopter) not Hinds.  Blackhawks with the stub wing fuel pods
*could*
>theoretically be confused with the Hip-E from the wrong angle
and at
>sufficient range.

	Actually, I haven't been in touch with Eric since I left my
first assignment. But you may be right as to what flavor of
helicopter the Blackhawks were supposedly confused for; I'm just
going off of my memory and that's a detail that probably got
blurred...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:17:11 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

At 02:47 am 2/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> Not only have we alienated large portions of the readership
from two major
>> local religions, but initial psionic polls indicate a highly
positive
>> degree of collateral damage to the semiotic structures of
organized and
>> entrenched religion as a whole.  Congratulations to the whole
team!  Bravo!
>> Bravo!
>
>
>You haven't alienated me, and I am a christian.  Personally, I
could
>care less what other people choose to believe in.  That's their
>business.  I'd much rather concentrate on having a good time
playing
>Traveller.  :)

	I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree here, M. Kenji. Your
manipulation tactics will have to become quite a bit more subtle
and advanced to actually *offend* me. (Hint--it's never yet been
done ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:09:03 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

Semo wrote:

>(BTW, I really would like to know what IAC is, but I'm afraid to ask, after
>seeing what I started accidentally when I asked what CE was)

For that reason, even if I knew, I wouldn't tell you.  ;- )

And just when I had to be away from the computer for most of 2 days.  I
still have over 250 messages to go through.

By the way, I've decided no to post on Dark Ages/Medieval/Reniassance.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:47:26 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

>So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
>Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an
>Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?

Based on a number of sources, I get roughly $3=1Cr.

This would flow from a per capita GDP of roughly 10KCr.

If you want a different value, fiddle with the PCGDP and the exchange rate
will follow.

Scott


- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:03:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

 
> Firstly, if the bombings were against military targets, then why not Tokyo

Toyko was a complete ruin due to convetional fire bombing. The first
raid alone killed more than the bomb did on Nagasaki.

> If the US had merely continued the blockade but not invaded, would the
> peace party have had enough support to take over the government ?
 
We would have continued to bomb during a "blockade." 50k people dead
a week is a decent estimate based on the raids up to that point.

> Finally, had the US offered the deal that in the end went down (i.e. the
> trial of the War government, and the surrender of the Emperors divinity but
> not his trial, execution or imprisonment), would the War party have
> survived, given a guarantee of the safety of the Imperial Person that the
> US offer would have involved, and the risks to the Imperial Person in an
> invasion ?

Why deal with somebody who started a war with a sneak attack? What
would be the political implications in the States? The President
would roundly loose the next election, no question, and likely take
his party with him. "Yeah, we had 'em licked, so we gave them better
terms than we did the Germans." People who all knew war dead would
really love that one.

- -Merrick

PS-I know the sneak attack wasn't intentional, but did anybody know
(or _care_) in 1945?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:10:02 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: LIFE IN THE 24TH CENTURY

At 08:09 pm 2/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Semo wrote:
>
>>(BTW, I really would like to know what IAC is, but I'm afraid to ask,
after
>>seeing what I started accidentally when I asked what CE was)

	IIRC, IAC="In Any Case." MNHSO, YMMV.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:57:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

 
> My problem with the decision to use the nukes was that things had got to
> the stage where there was no enormous need to rush such a decision,
> especially when it was known that the nukes were a completely new phenomon.

Well, let's say that we didn't nuke Japan. And even that for
whatever reason other land battles stopped (not even slightly
likely, but for arguements sake..). We siege Japan--LeMay would keep
bombing without question.

Both cities would still be destroyed with huge loss of life (hell,
just look at the first firebombing raid on Tokyo). So would many
more smaller ones (as we ran out of bigger cites to flatten).

If the fire bombing raids killed 50k people per week, then it
would take less than 2 months to equal the total atomic deaths
attributed out to 1950 (~340,000). The first Tokyo raid killed at
least 100,000 (more than Nagasaki's immediate nuke damage) BTW. 

So in any serious discussion about "what if?" I think you need to
look at the baseline destruction that would have certainly
continued. Any Soviet occupation of the Japanese would have been at
least as bad for them as they dished out to China knowing Stalin's
way with people.

> I suspect the fact that the Soviets were about to get in on the act had
> something to do with it, and giving them an object lesson quite a lot more.

Yeah, no doubt this had a lot to do with it--none the less, the end
result was actually probably better for us *and* the Japanese.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:42:13 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

. There might be some thing there that can be
> used. One link went to a demo program that (don't hit me gang I'm sorry!)
> looked a lot like the Star Trek console maps but could do some zooming and
> moving, sorry again I can't remember the name, but it was VERY good looking
> on screen, at any rate.
> 

I'll take a look.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:43:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Michael D. Peters said:
> Have you checked out Joe Heck's web page? I don't remember the adress but I
> believe he was working on a 3d campaign at one time and had a number of
> links to 3d mapping software. There might be some thing there that can be
> used. One link went to a demo program that (don't hit me gang I'm sorry!)
> looked a lot like the Star Trek console maps but could do some zooming and
> moving, sorry again I can't remember the name, but it was VERY good looking
> on screen, at any rate.

I'd bet Deadeye's seen my page before. :)

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/

(it's not egomania, we've just talked on artistic topics in the past)

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 884-6766
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:25:07 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Erwin Fritz wrote:
>
> > Yes. This unit would need a minimal power plant (because that's where the M drive fuel
> > comes from). I'm not sure that it would need a computer, since it doesn't need to
> > steer. It's basically an unguided missile under constant acceleration. By the same
> > reasoning, sensors aren't needed.
>
> I totally disagree here.  We are not talking about a balanced hull that with an integral
> drive onto a ballistic trajectory.  You are talking about slapping a drive unit on a
> chunk of rock and having it guide itself into a mass driver.  Even at the height of the
> drive debates (that I've followed), there has always been agreement (I think) that the
> drive _force_ comes from the M-drive itself, that it is not a field effect.  As an
> example of what I am trying to say, go outside, get a chunk of rock.  Balance it on a
> pencil (I'll even be nice and say use the eraser side) and walk across the room.  If you
> can do it, you are either luckier or much more cooridinated than most people (and you
> should consider a career as a rock jock!)
>

Excellent logic. You've convinced me. I'm intrigued enough about this concept that, as soon
as I get my hands on the T4.1 vehicle design system, I'm going to cobble together some
vehicles of this type.

> Considering how easy it is to turn a not-very-large asteroid into a orbital weapon, I
> would think that _any_ attempts at placing drive units on asteroids would be
> discouraged.  With predijuce.
>

That is the danger, true. However, it can be overcome. The drive would have a very low
acceleration (like the 0.01G I mentioned earlier). The Imperium, or maybe just the local star
system, may have a law that says if the rock gets above acceleration x, or speed y, it will
be considered hostile. This is one of two reasons why I suggested that low acceleration
factor (the other reason is that the processing facility must be able to catch up and grab
hold of it if things go wrong).

Don't forget that at that minimal acceleration, it gives the star system's defensive forces
plenty of time to react to it if it gets too close to a planet. The reaction time would be
measured in days or weeks!

The Imperium probably cares more about the velocity (speed and direction) of moving bodies
than about the mass. Which is not to say that mass isn't important, but it's not THE factor
in determining threats. So, the Imperium may just have a rule that says that unmanned ships
may not accelerate more than <insert number here> Gs. Unmanned ships with higher than the
permissible acceleration are treated as threats. If so, the 0.01G M drive poses no threat.

As a final (albeit weak) defense of this setup, rocks with drives are canon. Planetoid ships
are specified in High Guard, MT, and at least one adventure (Expedition to Zhodane).

> .01 G may not sound like much, but give it enough time (i.e. the travel time from the
> asteroid belt to the Habitable Zone) and you got a screaming rock...  For that matter,
> tho' - if the miner was annoyed with the mining company (a dispute over credit) and
> 'missed' the mass driver by 'just a bit', as well as neglecting to sign his work (with
> his transponder), the orbital facilities would be very vulnerable.  I'm not just talking
> about the mass driver control shack either...
>

I think I get why you're so concerned with the near-C rock threat now. You're picturing the
processing plant as being in orbit above a populated planet, maybe even the main world. I was
picturing it as being above/below the ecliptic plane, close to the mining activity in the
asteroid belt.

Why have it there? It's close to the action, so rocks don't need to travel very far (with
higher acceleration forces and greater potential for target error). You want to be refining
your rocks in zero-G anyway, so why not do it where there's lots of room to make a mess.

Every once in a while, a ship will transport finished goods from the processing plant to the
inhabited worlds of the system.

> If the miner only gets a percentage of what is extracted, salting won't do any good.
> It's what comes out of the rock that counts.
>

Unless a deposit or some kind of up-front payment is part of the equation. I keep thinking of
how people were duped over the Bre-X scandal last year. I see the potential for that kind of
thing to occur on a larger scale in an asteroid belt.

> Don't get me wrong.  I like you basic idea - I just have a problem with the sample size
> and the way the sample is delivered.

I'm not offended. I wasn't claiming my idea was perfect (or even that it was "my" idea!) and
I like the fine-tuning process we've been doing.

> Try this, the mining company uses a large ship with a 'spinal mount' of a mass driver to
> throw pre-processed slugs of asteroid to a central processing station (since it's a
> ballistic trajectory, no in-flight guidence would be necessary, and the velocity would be
> set by the 'throwing' mass driver and not subject to change).  I can see the smaller
> 'lone' prospectors surveying asteroids for value, then selling their location to the
> processing units - but being paid when they are processed.  And I can also see the 'lone'
> prospectors out breaking up their own ore and delivering it to the processing units - and
> being paid spot cash for the value of the ore.
>

All very reasonable. In fact, the ballistic trajectory is much easier and cheaper (which is
important from the point of view of the processing company) than slapping a drive on the
rock.

For non-ferrous rocks, you'd need another way of accelerating the beasties though. The spinal
mount ship should also be (or carry) a large "tugboat", so it can, using its own M -drive,
launch rocks (by pushing them). The processing company needs to have a couple of these tugs
around its end of the journey to decelerate them. You want a couple in case one fails.

> This way the smelters are kept busy (by both the 'company' men and independant
> contractors), the belters get paid both on the spot (drinking money) and over time as
> their larger claims are processed.  A belter may even keep a 'large' claim for himself to
> mine out - I imagine they would get a much larger share of the ore they bring in
> themselves, as opposed to what they sell off.

All good points.

- --
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:08:00 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: US Nuking of Japan

Always a fun topic.  I sat nuclear alert for a long time.  

Was the US right?  Well, I hope God knows cause I sure don't.  I wonder
whether there is a right or wrong about these things sometimes. 

The nature of people in this country(US) has changed alot since WWII,
and we are no more the people who fought that war than the Germans and
Japanese who fought against us.  Better or worse it was THEIR war, not
mine.  

If nations must bear burdens eternally like this there will never be a
true understanding among peoples.

All I can say is this:  I have a friend who is in his mid 70's. 
A P-51 pilot during WWII, he was briefed that during Olympic he was
going to be flying strafing runs to soften up the landing grounds and
clear way for invasion forces.  He was directed to shoot anything that
moved, simply because the Japanese WOULD NOT SURRENDER.

He has told me they expected to have to kill most of the population.
True?  He was just a pilot and not a general, but the attitude was
there.  The bomb stopped that from happening.

Today the Japanese hold MacArthur in high respect because of the way
they were treated after the war.  So I ask y'all:which should we be
judged by, our brutally effective way of stopping the war or the impact
we had on Japan to allow it one of the worlds great powers today?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:09:23 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

> I'd bet Deadeye's seen my page before. :)
> 


Hey Joe.  Got any ideas on this?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:02:47 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Joe
Concidering the information contained on your page, (not to mention IT was
the site that introduced me to the TML) it SHOULD be egomania. I appologise
for not haveing the adress at hand but it's not in the bookmarks on my
laptop and I'm away from home.

Speaking of Web pages... I checked out the GURPS Traveller page. I must say
that it is one of the most eye appealing I've seen in a while, but Stevie
always did lean toward the high tech, all of SJG's pages are eye catchers.
If Gurps Trav lives up to the promise I may have to dig out the rest of my
GURPS stuff (of course I already drop in bits and peices as the mood
strikes;).

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: 3D sectors


>I'd bet Deadeye's seen my page before. :)
>
>http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/
>
>(it's not egomania, we've just talked on artistic topics in the past)
>
>--
> joe                          (573) 884-6766
> ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/
> PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:05:18 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 12:24 PM 2/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> Which is one of the reasons that a *lot* of folks think it'd be a good
>> idea to detach the Warthogs from the Air Force and give them to the
>> Army. The AF just barely tolerates them (if it hadn't been for Desert
>> Storm, the AF would have replaced them with some hi-tech fighters that
>> had a "ground attack mode") and serving in them doesn't do your career
>> much good.
>> 
>
>Does a lot better than flying bombers.

What's the old line?  "Fighter pilots make movies, ground attack pilots
make history?"  Speaking as a grunt, I'd rahter see one A-10 over the
battlefield than hear about thirty knights of the air, in glorious single
combat, defeating the wiley foe.

I got to watch an arc-light once.  From 10 miles off, my spotter and I were
bounced off the ground.  Very impressive.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
+------------------------------------------------+
| "Only on the surface has the strategic missile |
| race reflected competition between the United  |
| States and the Soviet Union; the real struggle |
| is between the US Air Force and its archrival  |
| the US Navy."              -Samuel H. Day, Jr. |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:10:07 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Patriotism

At 04:17 PM 2/12/98 +0100, you wrote:

>I'll take your advice and make up a NPC who is ex-military and who actually
>honestly belive that all soldiers fight for peace and freedom. Whenever
>somebody talks about anything vaguely related to war he'll burst: "Freedom
>isn't free! It's paid for with the blood of patriots!" and when somebody
>tells him that "Opression isn't free either! It's also paid for with the
>blood of patriots!" they'll get into a barroom brawl that the NPC will win
>most of the time (he fights dirty as he has survived a few wars).

ROFLMAO!  If you want to know what this guy looks like, go to my homepage.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #155
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 156



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)
Re: ImpMarOrtillery
Re: US Nuking of Japan
Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: Rome and the Imperium
Re: Water Canopy
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: US Marines
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151
Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)
Re: Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill
How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Titan Games Sale Items
Re: System Defense Boats
RE: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:54:56 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

At 04:39 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Removing all religious symbols and activities from school property? no.

Great! So you wouldn't mind it when your local school allowed the following
religions to demostrate their beliefs to your children:  Santeria, Voodun,
Santanism, Dionysian Fertillity Rites, Paganism, Druidism, and a group of
Discordians praising Eris.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:44:08 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

At 06:09 PM 2/12/98 GMT0, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <6a83c447.34df7b9a@aol.com>
>
>> There were additional mandatory classes from the Chaplain on suicide,
>
>Wow, they even teach you how to do that? :-)

Well, there is the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and the ARMY Way to do
*everything*

Mail me for a fun story about our instruction period on latriene ops.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:26:26 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

At 11:04 AM 2/12/98 -0600, you wrote:

>I don't want to start a flame war, but I have a sincere question:
>
>Is it fair to say that the Marines would be the combat force meant to
>"take possesion" of territory held by enemy forces and the Army is meant
>to "keep" or hold a territory once taken?

The role of the USMC is to put a foot in the door.  By getting to a trouble
spot quickly, the Marines provide a notable US presence on the ground.
Also, the Marines have their own air support (AV-8B jump jets and AH-1S Sea
Cobras) that interact closely with the troops on the ground.

What the Marines lack is the capability for sustained warfare.  The Army,
with massed divisions of M1A2s and field artillery, can locate, fix, and
destroy the enemy; then "plant the flag in his ass."  

>The mission of the Army seems obscure to me now.  Maybe we should have
>the Navy, Marines, and Air Force absorb the role of the Army in this day
>and age.

Heretic!   The main mission of the United States Army is to defend the US.
The Army isn't in the force-projection business.  That's the Navy/USMC's
job.  The Army is best utilized when deployed to a forward area, given time
to collect itself, and supported by the Air Force.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:12:44 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: ImpMarOrtillery

Well it's not Ortillary, but I tend to arm up my Landing boats to act in
support roles. One of the reasons I like missiles is the fact that they can
be used for indirect fire, as opposed to beams. Also the boats are mobile.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: ImpMarOrtillery



>Neat, but what about lower TLs when Meson Guns aren't really battlefield
>mobile?
>
>>On the other hand, the 4518th Lift Infantry Brigade (Duke of Regina's Own
>>Huscarls) has Ortillery (3 system defense boats) as an integral part of
their
>>TO&E.
>
>I think I'd like to be with them rather than someone else, then. Attached
>support is all very well, but it has a habit of coming 'unattached' just
>when you need it most. I can just imagine being told "Once the system space
>defences have been suppressed your Battalion will have a DE and two
>Gazelles as Ortillery support." Then after you've just got yourself well
>engaged by the locals and they're mounting a counter attack you get a
>message over the lascomm "We're breaking orbit to engage news bogeys
>reported incoming", as the enemy having some brains has ordered some
>previously hidden SDBs to mount a diversion. On reminding the Navy
>commander of his role as fire support you are told "That only applies AFTER
>the space defences are suppressed, which they clearly are not."
>
>Of course this depends on how good a relationship the Navy has with the
>Marines, and just how much the Navy really belives that capturing planets
>is, compared with destorying ships. It's like the arguments over the use of
>air power in WWII, with the pro-bomber faction claiming that the Germans
>would've done better if they'd put more effort into strategic bombing, and
>others saying that the allies wasted a lot of resources and men with their
>bombing campaign, and would've better spent the effort on more support for
>their armies.
>
>
>
>-- Rupert Boleyn
>"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:24:35 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: US Nuking of Japan

> we had on Japan to allow it _to be_ one of the worlds great powers today?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 04:34 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Moin Erwin Fritz,

> The lone Belter, with his seeker, finds some ore.

	The minimal cargo hold of the modified scout contains anything
	to cut some rocks of, and to analyse them. He'll put a beacon on
	the rock (that only response when the right code is received),
	stores the coordination and drift of the asteroid in his computer,
	and takes some examples of the found ore as cargo. The real problem
	is of course making and selling the claim. A scout who convinced
	a large mining company to buy his claim has made a strike.

	In TNE an other method of making a strike is posible, but not ores
	are searched for but old equipment. My TNE prospector vessel is
	certainly better for such kind of strike. Its 80dt, able to jump
	at 120dt, normaly carries a 20dt mission pod and a 20dt gig. You
	can leave half of the crew, the gig and the mission pod, jump back
	to get some cargo pods, and make a small bussiness with own station.
	Some of those prospector stations, later become class C starports.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:57:34 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Speaking as a grunt, I'd rahter see one A-10 over the
> battlefield than hear about thirty knights of the air, in glorious single
> combat, defeating the wiley foe.
> 

And that is all I ever wanted to do, fly a hog and do exactly what you
said.  Alas but 4 of 23 go to fighters in a typical UPT class, and I
missed an A-10 by 1 or 2.

However, one of my fondest memories was driving north during Khafji and
praying we would be diverted to hit the armored columns advancing from
the north on the Marines there.

Never hear of that?  Well, there is a good reason, even though I didn't
get MY wish.  A 3 ship did hit those columns of some 5000 Iraqis and
annihilated them.  Ground observers reported trucks were flying 50-100
feet in the air during the strike, which consisted of 150 750lb HE
bombs.  So the B-52 is sexy, especially to Marines.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:19:24 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

A good model might be American Judaism. It has survived thousands of years of
persecution, but is presently dying, ironically as a result of the very
success American Jews have had in America. They have intermarried and the
children are being raised practising other religions (or none at all), because
it is easier to blend in (by not having to be obviously different). I think it
may come down to all American Jews disappearing, except for the 10% who are
Orthodox (and thus very similar to Fundemantal Christians and Muslims in their
outlook). In Traveller, I would think that religions (expecially Terran ones),
would have similar problems. The pressure to assimilate and fit in, would tend
to force religions to become militant and/or Orthodox to fight the "outside
influences". Another interesting point is local religion that is unacceptable
to the Imperium, or even the local's reaction to "outside" ie. Imperial
missionaries. A last point is the potential for Vilani vs. Solomani religious
bigotry. If you look at Northern Ireland, the Middle East, and India-Pakistan;
religious differences directly and/or indirectly influence politics. How would
this be modeled in the Imperium? (I won't even go to religious differences
among the Zhodani and the other major races).

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:35:49 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

At 11:28 AM 2/12/98 +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>That would be me, I guess. What I was talking about was the 3I's lack of
>Rimward effort early on - the 3I is moving in on the Zhodani about 5
>sectors away before they incorporate the Solomani, only 3 sectors away.
>Then they spend insufficient effort infully integrating it into the
>Imperium, even though large autonomous regions are dangerous. What is more
>once the Solomani power bloc was broken they ignored the dissafection of
>the Solomani and made no effort to mend the fences - and this was with a
>region that included the homeworld of many citizens, and included about a
>third of the volume of the 3I at that time. Then when they couldn't ignore
>the Solomani anymore they didn't even finish the job properly, thus leaving
>the Solomani as a constant threat, and handing the Solomani the rimward
>frontier.

If we are discussing the M:0 period, the 3I wasn't close to Solomani space.
 Since that period is only lightly covered in printed material, I can only
assume that something slowed Imperial expansion to rimward until Terra was
finally absorbed in 588.  Perhaps Solomani pocket empires, combined with
the ease of expansion to spinward, made the rim a backwater for centuries.

I have to question your statement about Terra being the "homeworld" for
many citizens.  I'm a first generation American, my father is from
Stafferd, England.  I feel no sense of loyalty or connection to that far
off place, that I've never seen.  That's with a seperation of forty years
and about 10,000 miles.  Imagine if your family had left Earth over a
thousand years ago, and dozens of light years behind!

>Likewise they let the Julian Protectorate go, and never even tried to get
>it back, even though it was part of both the 1st and the 2nd Imperiums.
>This permanantly blocked coreward expansion.

The Imperium fought, and lost, a war with the Julians between 175-191.
This guarnteed their independance.

>The Frontier Wars show that the 3I was seldom prepared for war, and this in
>a sector that abuts a large and unfriendly neighbour. IMO the 3I was damn
>lucky that the Zho's wern't expansionistic, because if they were the 3I
>would stop at Corridor.

The Spinward Marches were a frontier that few in the Moot cared about.
There were always projects to occupy the attentions and funds of the
nobility; which proved disastorous when Olav haut-Plankwell drove from the
Marches like an avenging angel after the 1FW.  

>>  In a way, from what I recall of my Roman history, the third Imperium is a
>>somewhat close analogy to Rome.  Expand out as far as you can go, leave no
>>enemies nearby, and then incorporate the conquored into your culture.
>>Problem is, the Imperium had not one "Persia" to contend with, but two.

I don't really see the Imperium "incorporating" new members into a
pan-Imperial culture.. slow assimilation seems to be the rule.  

>>Perhaps the biggest "error" in the Imperium, is that they allowed the
>>Villani to sway them to the point where the Solomani went to war.  Had they
>>been able to create a united front against the Zhodani, the third Imperium
>>might have been able to bring the full effect of it's economic and military
>>might against the Zhodani.

Consider that the Vilanni brought their "bottom-line" mentality to warfare.
 Always looking for the greatest return on an investment of force.  The
Imperium could do worse for a model!

>The Zhodani are quite like the Persians - they aren't expansionistic
>towards Rome/3I, but the Solomani are kind of like if the Romans,once
>thay'd defeated Carthage adsorbed them into the Republic, and then when
>they rebelled let them and their Spanish colonies go.

There is a reason my Zhodani call them the Wars of Containment.
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:27:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

At 03:57 PM 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Obtrav: Many worlds are at TL3 or less and lack long range communications.
How do you inform the populace of a spaceborne plague, invasion or other
disaster in a timely fashion? Imagine a Scout/Courier buzzing friendly
native encampments with PA system blaring....

"and Lo, there were shepards in the fields with their flocks, and suddenly
among them, came a vision, and it spoke with flame and thunder..."

Now, find a world that had that happen during the 1st or 2nd Imperia...
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:59:16 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

At 11:27 AM 2/13/98 +1300, you wrote:

>Having just borrowed and read Melieu 0, I strongly agree with you. The IISS
>and megacorps do so much meddling that there's bound to be quite a high
>stuff-up rate, and guess who's going to be picking up the pieces? The whole
>Imperial Drive relies on the military being there to back it up, and on
>having lots of naive young men willing to go out and die for the profit of
>others. It's John Bull Company & the Indian Army all over again.
>
>I don't recall whether or not the Melieu 0 fans were those who found TNE
>morally dubious, but I hope not because for all the looting and
>decapitation raids the Coalition did, at least they honestly thought it was
>for the good of the wilds populations, whereas in Cleon's New Galaxy Order
>something is good if it profits the Imperium. Sure they talk about long
>term good and leaving worlds to rule themselves, but that only applies when
>they have joined the 3I (often because it's destroyed their economies
>stability) and it would cost money to run them directly.

I prefer a setting that's honest to me as the Referee and to my players:
The Third Imperium is corrupt, it's methods are immoral; rather than the
whole mythology of the Star Vikings securing civilazation by acting like
visigoths.  I might have had an easier time with the RC setting if the
source material had been upfront about what the RCES was doing, and had a
sidebar about the PR campaign.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:23:46 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: US Marines

At 02:53 PM 2/11/98 EST, you wrote:

>Battle of Beleaux Wood.  Hue City.  Chosin Resovoir (6 to 1 in Divisions
when the Army and UN forces decided to head for the hills....) as a
sampler. : )

Funny.  I was in the 3/7th INF (M), and we have a battle streamer for
Chosin.  Seems we took the point during the withdrawl, since we still had a
couple of trucks to transport the dead and wounded.

By the way, running for the hills, or seizing the high ground, is a sound
military tactic.  :P

>Me 2. : )  We toot our own horn alot.  We're always taught pride and honor
>and our stature compared to the other Armed Forces.  That's the cause. We
>get our humility as boots and quickly try to forget.

How to deflate Marines in three easy steps:

1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
in history?

2>  What do Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Charles Whitman have in
common?

3>  Which is the only service to have an active-duty member convicted of
espionage in the last 25 years?


Answers: 1> 0
         2> They were all Marines, and all killers
         3> The USMC, Sgt Clayton Lonetree.

Can't resist Uncle Sam's Misguided Children...
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:08:18 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151

At 10:41 PM 2/12/98, you wrote:

>The US side also had their own problems, such as the USN thinking it had a
>war-winning role, as opposed to the dull performance of just getting the US
>Army to Europe.

*grin*  The USAF has a similar myopia, thinking that they will win WWIII in
single dogfights.

>Most of the reliable sources I've seen also imply that NATO wasnt as
>outnumbered as the NATO military argued, but it suited the corporate
>interests of the various militaries to argue this, sometimes by
>intellectual dishonesty like including spare tanks in the Warsaw Pact tank
>figures but forgetting the tanks in the replacement pools when counting up
>NATO tank numbers.

The most reliable figure I heard was a ready force that outnumbered us
4.7-1 in tanks.  

>Bringing this ObTrav, I can see Admirals arguing for more funds and
>claiming the Reserve Fleets shouldnt be counted in combat strength,

IMTU, the Reserve Fleet for each Subsector is mostly support.  Tankers,
tenders, transports for the subsector Army...  This allows the "real" Navy
to keep all the sexy battlewagons to themselves.  The reserves get second
line vessels for escorts and rear area patrols, but rarely any muscle.



- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:07:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)

Quoth TravelrTNE@aol.com:
>    It would seem to me that the best way for the zhos to insure the Imperium
> won't expand their way (or to keep them contained) would be to go all the way
> to the Claw.

But then they would have had to absorb all those pesky, unethical, immoral
ex-Imperials on the captured planets, causing centuries of social disruption.
Easier by far just to keep the Imperium off-balance, nervous, and xenophobic,
so their grotesque moral ideas don't pollute the poor weak-minded proles.

:-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:12:34 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill

In a message dated 98-02-12 14:53:47 EST, you write:

<< 
 
 The T4.1 Jack of Trades skill allows someone to
 do most anything.
 
  >>
This is the test from the draft chapter on skills. OPbviously, it needs
refinement.

	Jack of All Trades	varies
	The individual has a general education and wide experience which allows him
or her to attempt many different tasks with some expectation of success.
	Attempting Tasks. A character may attempt any task for which he or she has no
other skill. The character may not use Jack-of-all-Trades in place of a skill
which is already held.
	Limits on Jack-of-All-Trades. A character may not use a level of Jack-Of-All-
Trades which is higher than the associated personal characteristic. For
example, if a task calls for Mechanics and Strength, the level of Jack-of-All-
Trades used cannot exceed then characters Strength.
	Jack-of-all-Trades may not be learned by experience; it must be acquired
through the prior career process.


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:51:54 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmm,

I've always considered this to be a difficult-to-accept assertion.

Exactly what weapons does it have (the 33000 ton destroyer which
is about 155m long) have that can "devastate" anything.  Nuc missiles
yes (vs. planetary point defenses no).  750 MJ lasers?  No significant
effect.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How can a measly Destroyer devastate a planet?

The billions GDW killed off through attacks on civilian life-support 
facilities during the Black War might be able to answer that question for 
you.

Look how many planets support thousands or millions of people with no 
atmosphere or an unbreathable atmosphere.

"Captain, scanners have located three high-output power sources. They could 
be the colony's main oxygen-cracking facilities."
"Very good Commander. I want a close-approach orbit, we'll bombard the 
sites as we come over the horizon..."

One of the Traveller rules sets for Fleet actions had vacuum worlds 
surrender immediately when enemy warships appeared in orbit - they were 
just that vulnerable. Add that to the number of planets supporting 
populations with a local tech that can't produce necessary life support 
materials - anything that renegade Destroyer blows up  isn't going to be 
replaced by local manufacture. Blow enough of the right things up and there 
won't be a colony when the supply ship returns.

Granted, any high-population,.high tech world or world with strong SDB's 
won't have to worry about that kind of thing - but such worlds make up 
what, sixteen percent of inhabited worlds (by Traveller random world 
generation routines)? Nuclear surgical strikes targeted by TL-12 sensors 
will do the job just fine.

Walt Smith
- ------------------------------
_"Here, Kitty, Kitty" and Other Diplomatic Blunders_ - title of 
well-recieved book by one of our Trav characters on their adventures in 
Reaver's Deep Sector...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 07:22 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

Moin HAL,

> In an article in a magazine, it was attributed to Marc Miller saying that
> each imperial credit was worth $2 US.  This was written in 1994 or so.  

	this is of course america centristic. the exchance rate of a local
	TL:7 credit of a system with a cargo shuttle, to the imperial TL:F
	class A starport credit is known to be 1/2 since merchant prince.
	as the imperial credit is a vilany system, we'll will would now
	have exchange rates of 1VilaniCr equals $1.30.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:38:22 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

 
> I've always considered this to be a difficult-to-accept assertion.
> 
> Exactly what weapons does it have (the 33000 ton destroyer which
> is about 155m long) have that can "devastate" anything.  Nuc missiles
> yes (vs. planetary point defenses no).  750 MJ lasers?  No significant
> effect.
 
33ktons is more like a CL than a DD IMHO (based on CT Sup.9).

That said, it could use any old missiles. A 6g6 missile will hit the
planet at at least 100km/s. I don't wanna start the rock-throwing
thread, but if we assume that a ship so armed has decided to lay
waste (for whatever reasons) it can do it with pure KE. If they
drive (remootely piloted, of course) some ships's boats into the
world at higher velocities... yikes.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:48:39 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Titan Games Sale Items

Titan Games also had all of these items in a special "Sale"
section; they still show, but I don't know if availability
is current.


>Game Designer's Workshop:
>     MegaTraveller
>          Player's Manual (211) [$5, M]
>          Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$5, M]
>          Referee's Companion (215) [$6, M]
>          The Diaspora Sector (224) [$6, N]

>     Misc. Science-Fiction Board Games
>          Imperium (0205) [$8, N]

>     Traveller
>          Book 1 - Characters and Combat [$3, M]
>          Book 2 - Starships [$3, M]
>          Book 3 - Worlds and Adventures [$3, M]
>          Suppl. 2 - Animal Encounters (305) [$6, M]
>          Double Adv. 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague (327) [$8, M]
>          Double Adv. 6 - Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest (331) [$5, M]

>     Traveller: The New Era
>          Survival Margin (301) [$7, M]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:50:00 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

Hello,
>Subject: Re: System Defense Boats
...
>If gas giant refueling made sense, then rules that allowed little
>tiny ships to kill huge ones during refueling might help make sense
>of them. But as has been discussed over and over, GG refueling makes
>no military sense.

  I must have missed that one. Can I get a brief recap, please?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:32:28 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

On Thursday, February 12, 1998 7:25 PM, Erwin Fritz [SMTP:efritz@glja.com] 
wrote:
> Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Excellent logic. You've convinced me. I'm intrigued enough about this 
concept that, as soon
> as I get my hands on the T4.1 vehicle design system, I'm going to cobble 
together some
> vehicles of this type.

Actually, I'm kinda interested in that one myself...I just don't have the 
time to be tooling around with ship designs (like I want too!)

> That is the danger, true. However, it can be overcome. The drive would 
have a very low
> acceleration (like the 0.01G I mentioned earlier). The Imperium, or maybe 
just the local star
> system, may have a law that says if the rock gets above acceleration x, 
or speed y, it will
> be considered hostile. This is one of two reasons why I suggested that 
low acceleration
> factor (the other reason is that the processing facility must be able to 
catch up and grab
> hold of it if things go wrong).
>
> Don't forget that at that minimal acceleration, it gives the star 
system's defensive forces
> plenty of time to react to it if it gets too close to a planet. The 
reaction time would be
> measured in days or weeks!

Only once it is detected.  And it could be given a trajectory that would be 
measured in weeks - giving the perps plenty of time to depart the area!

>
> The Imperium probably cares more about the velocity (speed and direction) 
of moving bodies
> than about the mass. Which is not to say that mass isn't important, but 
it's not THE factor
> in determining threats. So, the Imperium may just have a rule that says 
that unmanned ships
> may not accelerate more than <insert number here> Gs. Unmanned ships with 
higher than the
> permissible acceleration are treated as threats. If so, the 0.01G M drive 
poses no threat.

Hmmm...I'm not sure I want to start arguing about falling rocks - it's a 
dangerous topic 'round here!

>
> As a final (albeit weak) defense of this setup, rocks with drives are   
canon. Planetoid ships
> are specified in High Guard, MT, and at least one adventure (Expedition 
to Zhodane).

Actually, I thought long and hard about Planetoid Monitors.  My thoughts on 
that would be that the monitor has it's drive installed in a shipyard, and 
I'm sure that they would be balanced and trimmed against the size and shape 
of the ship.

[snip]

> For non-ferrous rocks, you'd need another way of accelerating the 
beasties though. The spinal
> mount ship should also be (or carry) a large "tugboat", so it can, using 
its own M -drive,
> launch rocks (by pushing them). The processing company needs to have a 
couple of these tugs
> around its end of the journey to decelerate them. You want a couple in 
case one fails.

Actually, for those types of rocks, I was envisioning either a metal rod 
run through the rock, or a 'jacket' that the rocks would be placed into. 
 Either would be recoverable and reusable.

Hmmm...perhaps I have found one of the subsidiary type companies for my 
psuedo-LIC.  (Equenden Light Industries)  :)

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- ------------------------
Never anger a dragon, for they have found you are crunchy, and go well with 
Brie!

Douglas Glatz, MCSE
douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- ------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #156
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 157



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: System Defense Boats
Hedgehogs in SPAAAAACE...
RE: System Defense Boats
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Rome and the Imperium
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: US Marines
Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)
Re: System Defense Boats
Some new Traveller material on the web
Re: The value of a credit
TNS on GURPS site
Re: Nuking Japan
Marines (was: Re: US Marines)
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller universe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:16:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

 
> >If gas giant refueling made sense, then rules that allowed little
> >tiny ships to kill huge ones during refueling might help make sense
> >of them. But as has been discussed over and over, GG refueling makes
> >no military sense.
> 
>   I must have missed that one. Can I get a brief recap, please?

You have a system to defend. All that really matters is the
mainworld(s). If you ignore defending your GG, then your mainworld
is protected by your entire fleet. Otherwise, you have a weaker
mainworld, but a defended GG.

OK, I attack you. I am trying to take your mainworld (taking just
the GG doesn't do any good as far as controlling the system is
concerned). I can either take the GG first, then take mainworld, or
I can just jump staright to mainworld.

Jump to GG:
1. Deal with enemy forces, if any.
2. Fuel up (why else would I bother with the GG if not to refuel?).
	-Post High Guard and hope there is nothing nasty to surprise
	me.
3. Jump or m-drive to mainworld--they know I am in system, so if I
jump they are on alert for a week, if they see me driving, my intent
is clear.

4. Attack mainworld with either full force (no GG defenders were
there) or reduced force (I had to fight and refuel).

Jump to Mainworld:
1. Jump in with surprise.
2. Deal with Mainworld forces (full or split with GG).
3. If mainworld had no ships at GG, then my attack is the same as
worse case above, but with surprise. If forces are split with GG,
mainworld is easier to take (GG forces to be dealt with later).

Of the 2, the latter option is a better bet. The only advantage to
going to the GG is refueling for a jump outsystem if the mainworld
attack is going badly. This is only a problem if you do a full jump
into the system, however. If you leave a jumps worth of fuel, there
is no advantage to GG attack--and if you have tankers around, then
GG attack is pointless.

YMMV, but this is pretty typical.
- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:47:02 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Hedgehogs in SPAAAAACE...

On the topic of pets:

duFortier's Arboreal Hedgehog

 Geneered from Solomani origins, duFortier's Hedgehog (also known as
"FlySpineys" and a variety of unsavory terms) retains most of its
ancestral appearance, being a 3kg (at most) mammalian insectivore
with a thick coat of spines across its entire back. Important
differences include adaption of the claws and limbs from digging to
climbing, and the addition of a long fold of skin stretched between
the front and rear limbs. DuFortier's Hedgehog has lost the ability
to curl up entirely within its spiney coat for protection, though it
can still curl up enough to discourage most of the predators it is
likely to encounter. Another adaption is toward low-G or Zero-G
environmental function, making the FlySpiney quite at home in
space habitats.
 During the years of explosive expansion by the Solomani in the Nth
Interstellar Wars, one particular colony placed a panic call for
help against a ravening insectoid population. The genebanks of Terra's
Genassist sent an assault team equipped with the best of Terra's
insectivores and the ability to adapt their "troops" to changing
conditions. While the problem was eventually solved by other means,
several of the animals imported and adapted to the "war" were found
to have other applications. One of these is duFortier's Arboreal
Hedgehog, which quickly found a home among starship crews as a sort
of "ship's cat" alternative. While more common near Solomani space,
they have spread across and beyond the Imperium.
 One of the factors in their spread is the Flyspiney's prodigious
ability to reproduce. Combined with the adolescents tendency to treat
anything and anyone as a target during gliding practice, the need to
get the young "anywhere but this ship!" has guaranteed their spread.
 Adults are both territorial and possessive. If allowed to roam an
area freely, an adult will develop a routine of patroling the area
for edibles and other curiosities. They also tend to develop an
attachment to their owner/parent-figure if carefully raised, and
can be quite affectionate (assuming you like being snuggled by a
10-pound 5-O'clock-shadow). For this reason many Zhodani are known
fans of the Flyspiney.
 Even some non-humans find them useful and charming (and occasionally
even tasty). While the Hivers dislike them strictly on an "I have
large feet and this animal is sharp and pointy and underfoot" basis,
the Ithklur find them amusing for precisely the same reason. The
Aslan are ambivalent, but never use them as shipboard pets. The Vargr
consider them (in a deeply atavistic way) to be a quick snack, and
most Flyspineys seem to recognize this instinctively, though there
are a few cases of friendly cohabitation. The K'kree find it hard
to hate a lowly insectivore, but have no real interest (aside from
an instinctive interest similar to what a soccer team feels toward
a soccer ball...).


GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:08:27 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: System Defense Boats

Actually, I missed that one too.  I know that we pretty much agreed that GG 
refueling made no _commercial_ sense, but any attack force that doesn't 
have the J-fuel to jump away if the battle turns bad is in serious trouble.

douglas


- ----------
From: 	Steven Hudson[SMTP:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca]
Sent: 	Thursday, February 12, 1998 10:50 PM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Re: System Defense Boats

Hello,
>Subject: Re: System Defense Boats
...
>If gas giant refueling made sense, then rules that allowed little
>tiny ships to kill huge ones during refueling might help make sense
>of them. But as has been discussed over and over, GG refueling makes
>no military sense.

  I must have missed that one. Can I get a brief recap, please?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:51:07 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

At 05:28 PM 12/02/98 -0800, douglas wrote:
>
>Try this, the mining company uses a large ship with a 'spinal mount' of a
mass driver to
>throw pre-processed slugs of asteroid to a central processing station
(since it's a
>ballistic trajectory, no in-flight guidence would be necessary, and the
velocity would be
>set by the 'throwing' mass driver and not subject to change).  I can see
the smaller
>'lone' prospectors surveying asteroids for value, then selling their
location to the
>processing units - but being paid when they are processed.  And I can also
see the 'lone'
>prospectors out breaking up their own ore and delivering it to the
processing units - and
>being paid spot cash for the value of the ore.
>
>This way the smelters are kept busy (by both the 'company' men and
independant
>contractors), the belters get paid both on the spot (drinking money) and
over time as
>their larger claims are processed.  A belter may even keep a 'large' claim
for himself to
>mine out - I imagine they would get a much larger share of the ore they
bring in
>themselves, as opposed to what they sell off.

This also allows for all those traditional Sci-fi stories of the old miner
and his rock of <insert yuor favourite high value metal here>, that has an
eccentric orbit and he found by accident. Of course he never officially
claimed it ...


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:58:21 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

At 08:03 PM 12/02/98 -0700, Merrick wrote:
>
>PS-I know the sneak attack wasn't intentional, but did anybody know
>(or _care_) in 1945?

I very much doubt they cared, but I'm pretty sure they knew, because the
Japanese diploamtic cipher was broken, and they were reading the messages
as fast as the Japanese Embassy.



- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:04:42 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 08:05 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 12:24 PM 2/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>> Which is one of the reasons that a *lot* of folks think it'd be a good
>>> idea to detach the Warthogs from the Air Force and give them to the
>>> Army. The AF just barely tolerates them (if it hadn't been for Desert
>>> Storm, the AF would have replaced them with some hi-tech fighters that
>>> had a "ground attack mode") and serving in them doesn't do your career
>>> much good.
>>> 
>>
>>Does a lot better than flying bombers.
>
>What's the old line?  "Fighter pilots make movies, ground attack pilots
>make history?"  Speaking as a grunt, I'd rahter see one A-10 over the
>battlefield than hear about thirty knights of the air, in glorious single
>combat, defeating the wiley foe.
>
Hell yes, but the air forces of the world seem to think that ground
attack/support missions are 'dirty' and not worth while, probably because
SAMs don't play fair.

A nice thing about TW2000, as far as my freinds and I were concerned
(Infanry, one and all) - no b***dy aircraft.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:06:23 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

At 07:26 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 11:04 AM 2/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>The mission of the Army seems obscure to me now.  Maybe we should have
>>the Navy, Marines, and Air Force absorb the role of the Army in this day
>>and age.
>
>Heretic!   The main mission of the United States Army is to defend the US.
>The Army isn't in the force-projection business.  That's the Navy/USMC's
>job.  The Army is best utilized when deployed to a forward area, given time
>to collect itself, and supported by the Air Force.

AS I said before - it's really hard to fly your planes with no airfield.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:07:31 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

At 07:54 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 04:39 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Removing all religious symbols and activities from school property? no.
>
>Great! So you wouldn't mind it when your local school allowed the following
>religions to demostrate their beliefs to your children:  Santeria, Voodun,
>Santanism, Dionysian Fertillity Rites, Paganism, Druidism, and a group of
>Discordians praising Eris.
>--
>
>+------------------------------------+
>| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
>|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
>+------------------------------------+
>|          Embrace Fascism.          |
>|       The uniforms look cool       |
>+------------------------------------+
Why not, along with some Fascists showing off their cool uniforms :)

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:30:39 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Rome and the Imperium

At 08:35 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 11:28 AM 2/12/98 +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>>That would be me, I guess. What I was talking about was the 3I's lack of
>>Rimward effort early on - the 3I is moving in on the Zhodani about 5
>>sectors away before they incorporate the Solomani, only 3 sectors away.
>>Then they spend insufficient effort infully integrating it into the
>>Imperium, even though large autonomous regions are dangerous. What is more
>>once the Solomani power bloc was broken they ignored the dissafection of
>>the Solomani and made no effort to mend the fences - and this was with a
>>region that included the homeworld of many citizens, and included about a
>>third of the volume of the 3I at that time. Then when they couldn't ignore
>>the Solomani anymore they didn't even finish the job properly, thus leaving
>>the Solomani as a constant threat, and handing the Solomani the rimward
>>frontier.
>
>If we are discussing the M:0 period, the 3I wasn't close to Solomani space.
> Since that period is only lightly covered in printed material, I can only
>assume that something slowed Imperial expansion to rimward until Terra was
>finally absorbed in 588.  Perhaps Solomani pocket empires, combined with
>the ease of expansion to spinward, made the rim a backwater for centuries.

I was talking about the period up to the 1st Frontier War, and the
following Civil War. Whilw it may not have been policy to expand into the
SM Melieu 0 does say that the Syleans were irritated by the slow Vilani
expansion, and they certainly didn't object to movement into and beyond the
SM, whereas there was an offical limit to rimward expansion, at least in
M:0. Maybe the rim was a backwater, but if so it caught up fast enough. 

>I have to question your statement about Terra being the "homeworld" for
>many citizens.  I'm a first generation American, my father is from
>Stafferd, England.  I feel no sense of loyalty or connection to that far
>off place, that I've never seen.  That's with a seperation of forty years
>and about 10,000 miles.  Imagine if your family had left Earth over a
>thousand years ago, and dozens of light years behind!

I take your point.

>>Likewise they let the Julian Protectorate go, and never even tried to get
>>it back, even though it was part of both the 1st and the 2nd Imperiums.
>>This permanantly blocked coreward expansion.
>
>The Imperium fought, and lost, a war with the Julians between 175-191.
>This guarnteed their independance.

Why did it garantee independance, I don't think winning a war stopped the
3I before, they just came back later. They certainly didn't let a frontier
war or two stop them from continuing to pressure the Zhodani, though the 3I
seemed very bad at spotting cause and effect: they always seemed surprised
when the Zho's pushed back.

>>The Frontier Wars show that the 3I was seldom prepared for war, and this in
>>a sector that abuts a large and unfriendly neighbour. IMO the 3I was damn
>>lucky that the Zho's wern't expansionistic, because if they were the 3I
>>would stop at Corridor.
>
>The Spinward Marches were a frontier that few in the Moot cared about.
>There were always projects to occupy the attentions and funds of the
>nobility; which proved disastorous when Olav haut-Plankwell drove from the
>Marches like an avenging angel after the 1FW. Which was stupid, because by
the time of the 1st Frontier War they were ignoring the only frontier left
to them.
>
>
>There is a reason my Zhodani call them the Wars of Containment.

I tend to agree with you/them.

I guess it's just that by letting policy remain static for long periods of
time the 3I managed to paint itself into a corner. Then they started
telling themselves "It's alright, the SM has lots of potential, it's still
frontier really." with the result that like Feist's Kelwan (sp?) the 3I
looked vibrant and alive, but wasn't really going anywhere since probably
about 700-800.

All IMHO, of course (not that that'll do any good).

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:42:12 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

At 08:59 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>I prefer a setting that's honest to me as the Referee and to my players:
>The Third Imperium is corrupt, it's methods are immoral; rather than the
>whole mythology of the Star Vikings securing civilazation by acting like
>visigoths.  I might have had an easier time with the RC setting if the
>source material had been upfront about what the RCES was doing, and had a
>sidebar about the PR campaign.

I see what you mean, but I found it fairly clear. I think a lot of them
were overly idealistic with all the risks that go with it. The first thing
I thought when it was clear what was going on was "I'd hate to be one of
them, if it turn out that they are wrong." Also I don't think I could sell
the explict profiteering of M:0 to my players, whereas the ideals of the
Coalition would be easier. Then I could present them with the neat moral
questions of "Is it really worth the price that's being payed for it." some
of my players might've even counted the zippers in the price. Once they'd
got hold of M:0 (and they would have) there'd be no way they'd keep to any
sort of moral code - "If this sort of greed is good enough for Cleon, it's
good enough for us."


- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:44:28 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: US Marines

At 09:23 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 02:53 PM 2/11/98 EST, you wrote:
>
>>Battle of Beleaux Wood.  Hue City.  Chosin Resovoir (6 to 1 in Divisions
>when the Army and UN forces decided to head for the hills....) as a
>sampler. : )
>
>Funny.  I was in the 3/7th INF (M), and we have a battle streamer for
>Chosin.  Seems we took the point during the withdrawl, since we still had a
>couple of trucks to transport the dead and wounded.
>
>By the way, running for the hills, or seizing the high ground, is a sound
>military tactic.  :P
>
>>Me 2. : )  We toot our own horn alot.  We're always taught pride and honor
>>and our stature compared to the other Armed Forces.  That's the cause. We
>>get our humility as boots and quickly try to forget.
>
>How to deflate Marines in three easy steps:
>
>1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
>in history?
>
>2>  What do Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Charles Whitman have in
>common?
>
>3>  Which is the only service to have an active-duty member convicted of
>espionage in the last 25 years?
>
>
>Answers: 1> 0
>         2> They were all Marines, and all killers
>         3> The USMC, Sgt Clayton Lonetree.
>
>Can't resist Uncle Sam's Misguided Children...

We don't have marines in here in NZ, so we had to pick on the Air Force
(Farce) instead.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:45:44 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)

At 12:07 AM 13/02/98 -0600, Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett wrote:
>Quoth TravelrTNE@aol.com:
>>    It would seem to me that the best way for the zhos to insure the
Imperium
>> won't expand their way (or to keep them contained) would be to go all
the way
>> to the Claw.
>
>But then they would have had to absorb all those pesky, unethical, immoral
>ex-Imperials on the captured planets, causing centuries of social disruption.
>Easier by far just to keep the Imperium off-balance, nervous, and xenophobic,
>so their grotesque moral ideas don't pollute the poor weak-minded proles.
>
They had to do that anyway, the Impies were out past the SM at one stage
(before they got their asses kicked).

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:59:43 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

At 12:16 AM 13/02/98 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> >If gas giant refueling made sense, then rules that allowed little
>> >tiny ships to kill huge ones during refueling might help make sense
>> >of them. But as has been discussed over and over, GG refueling makes
>> >no military sense.
>> 
>>   I must have missed that one. Can I get a brief recap, please?
>
>You have a system to defend. All that really matters is the
>mainworld(s). If you ignore defending your GG, then your mainworld
>is protected by your entire fleet. Otherwise, you have a weaker
>mainworld, but a defended GG.
>
If the system is a frontier one, the enemy fleet might jump to the GG,
refuel and jump inwards.


- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:55:50 +0000
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Some new Traveller material on the web

Hi folks,

I've created a homepage to distribute some code from, so I thought I
might as well stick some of my (Windows) Traveller stuff up there for
download.  If anybody's interested in one of the following, you will
soon be able to get it from http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk - but be warned,
Demon allegedly updates slowly w.r.t. the rest of the net, so you may
have to wait a day or two.

1. Forms.doc (26K zipped) - Word documents featuring blank ship cards
   from Imperial Squadrons, the forms from Pocket Empires (genetics
   cards, family trees, member world cards and turn record cards), and
   a worksheet for use when developing star systems using Leroy
   Guatney's revised Scouts material.

2. Worldmap.fcw (16K zipped) - a Campaign Cartographer 2 file with the
   standard map grid in place (on the Border and Hex layers).  It copies
   the look of IS Form 21 as printed in the WBH; I intend to do a TNE-
   style version as well, but I only just got CC2 so I haven't got
   around to it yet.

Cheers,

John
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:40:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The value of a credit

David J. Golden writes:

> 	IIRC, somebody (Hans?) published an analysis about a year ago
>pegging it at approximately Cr1=$3

There was a general discussion about it and I believe that the general
consensus was approximately $3. I believe I've seen it stated somewhere
that the credit started out equal to 1$ back in 1977.

What I posted wasn't really an analysis but a system where originally
the unit was equal to the hourly pay for an unskilled laborer. To my
delight this turned out to fit perfectly with the standard credit
being that unit (it also fits perfectly with the GURPS $; there's
serendipity for you!).

Scott Ellsworth writes:

>Based on a number of sources, I get roughly $3=1Cr.
> 
>This would flow from a per capita GDP of roughly 10KCr.

Yep. I get the same result.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:46:49 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: TNS on GURPS site

Just visited the site, it's excellant and even though I don't and probably
won't be switching over to GURPS, I will by buying it (can I place a pre-
order :*>) and waiting with some anticipation. However there were two minor
canon errors in the TNS. Dulinor's aide was Volante Imprey (not Lamprey) and
Norris would become Archduke of Deneb not Archduke of Regina.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:56:41 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

David P. Summers
>It doesn't matter.  The US was attacked and had a right to do what it
>thought would save it's soldiers lives by bringing the war to an end.

By this logic there is no such thing as a war crime, at least not if
you are attacked. Is that what you believe? Does the reverse apply too?
That any loss of life caused by any action of an agressor is a crime?

It seems to me that the whole concept of war crimes arise from the
idea that there are some things you're not entitled to do, even to
defend yourself. Terror-bombing to break the enemy's will, torture to
extract useful information, the use of hostages, execution of POWs,
use of defoilants and napalm, the whole shooting match.

Of course, some of the things I mention above are against the Geneva
Convention, but if using them would shorten the war and save friendly
casualties, wouldn't it be morally wrong to adhere to the convention?

The US may have been justified in dropping nuclear bombs on Japan. I
don't think so, but I admit that I don't have all the facts and that
I may be wrong. But if they were justified, then it must have been for
other reasons than a blanket absolution caused by the fact that the
Japanese were the original aggressors.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:27:48 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Marines (was: Re: US Marines)

>Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:23:46 -0800
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: US Marines

[US interservice rivalry snipped for sanity's sake. What is the SAN loss
for joining the Marines/Army anyhow?]

>How to deflate Marines in three easy steps:

>1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
>in history?

>Answers: 1> 0

Whilst not being quite exactly what you're talking about, but 45 RM Commando
landed on Gold beach (well they are "Marines") :*>. And Overlord (D-Day as
it so oft and inaccurately called) was not the largest amphibious landing.
That distinction goes to the invasion of Sicily which involved 185,000
personnel as against Overlord's 181,000.

ObTrav: How intense are the interservice rivalries in the 3rd Imperium. We
know in M:0 the nobility have a tradition of duelling. Might we expect
"Three musketeer"  style duels and rivalries. Do regiments have friendly and
enemy regiments? Will a member of the 37th Martian Rifles (Cleon's Loyal
Greens) take an instant and intense dislike to members of the 9th Regiment
of Marine Infantry; challange a member of the 114th Deneb Cavalry to a duel
on sight; and shout a round of drinks for anyone from the 13th Frontier
Legion? Should we be digging out our copies of En Garde?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:02:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller universe

SemoFetus@aol.com writes:
>Now, what I'm basically getting at is this:  What is the state of
>entertainment in the Traveller universe?  Are there movies or movie analogs?
>
>[...]
>
>I don't want right or wrong type answers really, I mean, I guess I'd like to
>see different types of entertainment that everybody's come up with...
>
>[...]
>
>What type of stuff is going on in everyone elses' heads?

I don't know if the following is what you're after, but it may amuse you.
Back around 92 on the Great PBM game run by Mark Cook and Mike Metlay an
"in between" period was coming up. The ship we were on was to do a couple
of jumps to get us to where the action was, and Mark&Mike had decided to
fast-forward through it. All the players were encouraged to write
personal journals to cover the period and to come up with some frills
to develop our characters. I had already established that my character,
Rigo Edmondsen, was a closet romantic who carried a library of holo-
crystals with him. Some of the works were serious historical books and
reference works, but a LOT of them were adventure fiction and there were
also a lot of videos -- excuse me, I mean holo-dramas. So I decided that
he would arrange a showing of some of his favorite holodramas each evening
over the period and had a lot of fun making up what those favorites were.
Here's a copy of the announcement he posted on the ship's bulletin board:


- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmondsen Entertainment presents a selection of the best holodramas
from Behind the Claw to Daibei. Each evening at 20:00 hours in the
small lounge.

Following the main feature each night we'll show an episode of the
holoseries 'Sector Tango Libra' that follows the fortunes of the men
and women on a Welfare Service fort on the edge of The Black Hole.

Bring your own munchies.


Day 1:
"Star Trek 41: The 10th Generation"
Classic humourous parody of a space navy from the days of The
Terran Confederation.

Day 2:

"Lieutenant Alderon and the Menace of the Vargr"
Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr spys and battles Vargr raiders
in the Vland and Corridor Sectors. Based on the celebrated
books "Lieutenant Alderon" and "Lieutenant Alderon and the
Raiders" by D.T. Woodsman.

Day 3:

"Borume"
This light-hearted retelling of the life of Borume the Pirate
owes more to the power of imagination than to history, but it
is rattling good fun.

Day 4:

"The Right Choice"
In 605 a brilliant young ensign named Arbellatra serves in the
Spinward Marches under Commander Alderon who promotes her over
the heads of older ensigns. Based on "Commander Alderon and
the ensign" by D.T. Woodsman.

Day 5:

"244"
The first part of a gripping two-part dramatisation of Cleon
the Mad's days as emperor follows him from his coronation
to the Holiday Massacre.

Day 6:

"245"
The sequel to '244' follows the fortunes of Cleon the Mad from
New Year's Day to his death at the hands of Porfiria.

Day 7:

"Commander Alderon and the _ihatei_"
Commander Alderon protects a client state in the Outrim Void
from aslan settlers, eventually finding alternative land for
the Aslans. Based on the book of the same name by D.T.
Woodsman.

Day 8:

"'The good ship Pinafore' or 'The Lass that loved a Spaceman'"
A reconstruction of Gilbert & Sullivan's old classic by The
Players', Pirates', and Policemens' Company of New Sandford,
Deneb, Deneb.

Day 9:

"Captain Alderon"
The outbreak of the Second Frontier War brings Kevin Alderon
his long-deserved promotion to captain. A year later Alderon
becomes Flag Captain to Arbellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
Admiral of the Marches. After  the  defeat  of The Outworld
Coalition Arbellatra and her loyal men must then decide how
to save the Imperium. Based on the books "Captain Alderon",
"Captain Alderon's Flag", and "Lord Alderon's Choice"

Day 10:

"Jump Trooper III"
In 1001 Sergeant Dupierre and Major Tzolsky are maintaining the
Solomani occupation of an Imperial colony. In the light of the
impending ceasefire, Dupierre is inclined to withdraw. But
Tzolsky wants to blow up the colony when the Imperial troops
arrives.

Day 11:

"Lord Alderon and the Siege of Capital"
While Arbellatra and Admiral Soegz lays siege to Capital, Brevet
Admiral Alderon with a rag-tag fleet must prevent a superior
force from coming to the old emperor's aid. Then, during the
final days of the Siege of Capital, Alderon warns Arbellatra
against seizing the throne herself. Based on "Lord Alderon and
the Rebel Fleet" and "Lord Alderon and the Regent".

Day 12:

"Valley of the Chirpers"
Castaways on a deserted planet finds a mysterious base filled
with strange artifacts and incomprehensible machinery.

Day 13:

"Hornblower"
This classic tale from Terra's pre-spaceflight days features a
hero that has been called 'a sea-borne Lord Alderon'. Filmed on
Mora using authentic wood replicas of Old Terra sea vessels, you
can almost feel the breeze, smell the gunpowder, and taste the
salt water.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Could you not begin at the beginning and go on until you come
	 to the end, and then, if you are able to, stop?"
	"I'll try," said his lordship, "but I always find the stopping
	 business so difficult."
			--- "Murder must advertise" by Dorothy Sayers

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #157
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 158



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Belters and mining
Re: More on starship economy
Imperium Games belly up?
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: TNS on GURPS site
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Water Canopy
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: Marines (was: Re: US Marines)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: Imperium Games belly up?
Re: 3D sectors
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: Alcohol proof

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:24:16 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

At 2:02 AM -0500 2/13/98, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>Great! So you wouldn't mind it when your local school allowed the following
>religions to demostrate their beliefs to your children:  Santeria, Voodun,
>Santanism, Dionysian Fertillity Rites, Paganism, Druidism, and a group of
>Discordians praising Eris.

ALL HAIL ERIS!!!!!!


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:28:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Belters and mining

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:

>I have read numerous statements to the effect that refuelling at a gas
>giant is a bad idea. I assume this is because it takes a lot of resources
>to get to a gas giant, which in turn garners you more cost than just buying
>the dang fuel at regular prices.

No, that's not it. What it costs you is time. Several days at least.
Instead of jumping directly to the mainworld where you can deliver
your freight and passengers and (hopefully) get a new load, you jump
to the Gas Giant. You then spend 10-20 hours moving from its 100
diameter limit to where you can refill your tanks. you then spend
whatever it takes to get from the Gas Giant to the mainworld. Say you
have a beat-up 40 year old Free Trader worth about MCr15. Assuming your
average earnings are about the same as your competitors', you should be
able to earn about 110 credits per hour. You've just saved 4000 credits
(because you've gotten 40 tons of unrefined fuel for free instead of
paying 100 Cr/T at the starport). If you spend more than 36 hours extra
on the trip to the Gas Giant you're better off not doing it. If you are
still paying off an original purchase price of 60-65 MCr the figures get
four times as bad.

BTW. The people who think that Gas Giant refuelling makes sense believes
that you're using hours where you wouldn't earn money anyway (and then
making correspondingly more money the rest of the time).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:45:06 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: More on starship economy

Michael Kent writes:
>1. OK, I know what the Lifesupport costs of a High, Mid, and Low Passage
>passenger are.

2000, 2000, and 100, right?

>What are the costs of Lifesupport for the crew? 

Official? 2000. Except that there are some references in various CT
material that makes life support quite a lot less for private starships.
_Annic Nova_ makes it 1000 per jump. And there are some rules for
Belters that makes life support much cheaper for non-starships than for
starships...

>Obviously, you must have lifesupport for the control room, crew's living
>space, engine room, etc. Also, for most smaller tradeships, you must
>run lifesupport in the cargo hold as well, because it is also the
>passageway from forward to aft.

It's all included in the blanket 2000 credits per jump. I guess that
you can survive indefinitely as long as you don't do any jumps... ;-)
 
>2. Obviously, part of the costs of running a ship include the fuel
>costs.  But there should be other costs as well.  Docking fees.

Varies from port to port, but are most often Cr100 for six days plus 100
for each day more than that. (Far to little, IMO).

>Minor repairs.  Cleaning costs.  Drinking water.

Included in the blanket 2000 credit/jump.

>3. Seems to me that part of the duties of the Steward would be
>purchasing the food and other consumables for the passengers and crew. 
>How would these expenses be figured.  If the Steward can get a good deal
>on supplies ("Heh, this tastes *nearly* as good, at half the cost!  The
>smell isn't *really* that bad."), it means more profit.

Sure. It depends on how much detail you and your players want to go into.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 13:17:46 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Imperium Games belly up?

This morning, I found this posting in rec.games.frp.misc.
Does anyone know more?

- --------------------------------------------------------------
Harold D. Hale wrote:

> Mike Basinger wrote:
>> 
>> I picked up a copy of Marc Miller's Traveller (Softcover) and was
>> wondering what other supplements for the game people like and
>> would suggest I pick up.
>
>  None of the above.  A call placed to Imperium Games yesterday (Feb.
> 11, 1998) resulted in the caller being told that Imperium Games would no
> longer being producing sourcebooks.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Harold
>
> P.S.  Marc Miller may be in the process of finding "T4" a home.  Stay
> tuned.
- --------------------------------------------------------------

Harold, I hope you don't mind this cross-posting, but this seems to be urgent.

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:09:34 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

> Granted, any high-population,.high tech world or world with strong SDB's
> won't have to worry about that kind of thing - but such worlds make up
> what, sixteen percent of inhabited worlds (by Traveller random world
> generation routines)? Nuclear surgical strikes targeted by TL-12 sensors
> will do the job just fine.
> 

How about planetry defenses that can reach out well beyond ship gun
ranges?

I agree one destroyer can devastate worlds in Trav.  Easily.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:22:33 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: TNS on GURPS site

Alledon not Avedon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:20:58 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> Hell yes, but the air forces of the world seem to think that ground
> attack/support missions are 'dirty' and not worth while, probably because
> SAMs don't play fair.
> 

I play with sams and do ground attack all the time.  And they are nasty
as all hell.  Seen a few real ones too.

The real problem is twofold:  if an air force doesn't own the skies your
ground shooters get picked off and troopies blasted.(ask exhibit A:Irag)
Most of the USAF IS ground attack.  Only the F-15's and F-22's are pure
carnivores.  BUFFs and BONES are at best omnivorous.  

All I ever wanted was a hog, but most guys who do well in UPT go for the
pointy nosed aircraft, because even hogs are "lower class citizens."  
I just want to save grunt lives and be a flyboy.  Cant see what those
others do from the ground-but it is amazing how damn GOOD they are. 

 There are GIANTS in this world, ven from my point of view.


> A nice thing about TW2000, as far as my freinds and I were concerned
> (Infanry, one and all) - no b***dy aircraft.
> 

Yeah-but yer skared of 'em aren't ya:)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:59:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
 
>      One of the planet details in (I think) the Galactic dataset (by Rob
> Dean?) described a planet where a genetically manipulated bean had the side
> effect of producing a noxious gas. The plant was quite successful (it
> gassed its competitors!) and spread at a geometric rate. Within 5 years the
> low lying areas of the planet were uninhabitable.

Not all that far fetched...some plants here on earth (thier fruits
especially) give off ethylene gas, which will kill other nearby plants.

BUt all I could think of when I read the description of the bean was 'Gad
I wish I had the Beano franchise for that planet!'

(NB for the non-Americans on the list, Beano is a dietary, uhhh, aid sold
here. It allegedly reduces the gas production commonly encountered when
eating beans)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:51:43 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

Douglas E. Berry writes:

>>Removing all religious symbols and activities from school property? no.
>
>Great! So you wouldn't mind it when your local school allowed the following
>religions to demostrate their beliefs to your children:  Santeria, Voodun,
>Santanism, Dionysian Fertillity Rites, Paganism, Druidism, and a group of
>Discordians praising Eris.

   Look up the definition of 'cult' and then compare it to the defintion of
'religion'.  Otherwise you would be correct--you would have to allow
everything from tree worshipers to ritual squirrel molesters to people who
took my Gabreelist writings a little too seriously...

Regards,

Harold

P.S. I know what you are thinking: but Harold, didn't Christianity start off
as a Jewish cult?  Absolutely, and if this were 38 AD and not 1998 AD, I
wouldn't allow St. Paul to plant crosses on school property.

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:02:37 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Steve Daniels schrieb:

> Second, a
> Third Imperium Church on the scale proportional to the Roman Catholic
> Church.
DONT! The Third Imperium has no official church, there are as many
denominations as there are worlds (maybe even more). A unified,
hierarchial church cant encompass this large a space. It wouldnt (and
Shouldnt) work!
Religion in the 3I is personal. Many worlds have state religions, many
have none, but the normal case is that everyone is free to live to the
standards he chooses. Religious practices are usually more personal, not
in a group.

> Catholic Church.  I am leaning very strongly to making it based on
> Judeo-Christianity.  Question concerns Traveller canon, not the other
> kind:
DONT DONT!!!
The Terran influence is there, but it shouldnt have had that high an
influence that people gave up their religion when the Terrans came.
> 
> Is there any canon about the christianity from Terra?
Its still exists on Terra itself, but not as many followers there as
today (new influences from the outside changed many peoples worldview,
making them turn their back on organized religion) and some
Solomani-Colonized worlds where people settled that didt want to suffer
the loss of religion experienced elsewhere.

> I've got no problem having christianity survive to 2099 or whenever
> contact was
Survive: Yes!
Spread to other worlds: A Bit, ok!
Spread Imperiumwide: No Fucking way. Organized religion already is on
the way out on this here world IMHO!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:41:56 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

> In anycase, the US can hardly be seperated out for
> condemnation for using the tatics (bombing cities)
> that their foe helped initiate and everyone in
Although you must admid, American Cities remained relatively
(relatively? Completely!) unbombed during the entire war. It wasnt even
a "We must destroy them because otherwise they will destroy us", but
rather a "They are doing things that work against our interest, get them
away, the faster the better". I dont say the US should have just
contained the Japanese, but Nuking two cities was a little over the top.
Just do the math: How many lives were saved by those nukes? Substract
the loss of life, direct and indirect, that was caused by the bombs. The
result is negative, thus the use of the bombs was an evil thing to do.
Yes Evil! It doesnt matter that it was against "The Enemy!!", it was
directed against human life, against civilians. I see the use of the
nuke as one of the great atrocities of the 2nd WW, but since the Victors
commited it, it didnt cout, in their eyes, for they were "justified". 
The Truth is always in the eyes of the beholder, history is written by
the winners, and this even proves these statements.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:27:31 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Marines (was: Re: US Marines)

> ObTrav: How intense are the interservice rivalries in the 3rd Imperium. We
> know in M:0 the nobility have a tradition of duelling. Might we expect
Well they keep secrets from each other, Army and Navy intelligence
sometimes work against each other (see: Signal GK). How far rivalry
goes, i dont know, but i suppose it is rather peaceful, similar to the
situation between the branches today (jokes and devaluation yes, maybe
sometimes a barroom brawl, but no real fighting)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:44:40 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

Rupert Boleyn schrieb:

> I very much doubt they cared, but I'm pretty sure they knew, because the
> Japanese diploamtic cipher was broken, and they were reading the messages
> as fast as the Japanese Embassy.
AFAIK they knew beforehand and even had time to prepare for the event
but didnt because they needed the public outcry to mobilize the
population!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:43:06 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up?

In a message dated 98-02-13 07:21:33 EST, you write:

<< >
 >  None of the above.  A call placed to Imperium Games yesterday (Feb.
 > 11, 1998) resulted in the caller being told that Imperium Games would no
 > longer being producing sourcebooks.
 >
 > Sorry,
 >
 > Harold
 >
 > P.S.  Marc Miller may be in the process of finding "T4" a home.  Stay
 > tuned.
  >>

What an incredibly irresponsible answer to a basic question of what Traveller
materials are there out there. You've just said none of he current T4 material
is any good, and that it basically doesn't exist anyway. Store have it.
Distributors have it. There are some gems in the pile, even if you think it is
all trash.

Let's tell this person about Emperor's Arsenal, or Pocket Empires. Let's tell
him there are 15 titles in the T4 line to pick and choose from.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:21:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

In mail you write:

>> What you do *instead*, is print a pair of 2d maps. One maps the stars
>> onto an XY grid, the other onto an XZ or YZ grid. Join the maps on the
>> "shared" edge, so that the paper can be folded there to place the maps
>> in the correct relationship to each other. 
>>
> I thought about that, too. This solution has the additional advantage of only
> requiring two maps for a sector (instead of four for an isometric shape).
>
>> This is not perfect, but it is *workable*. 
>>
> Yes, that would be a big advantage, wouldn't it? ;-)

Another nice point is that if you want to find all the stars within X
parsecs, you just check the ones that are within X parsecs on *both*
maps. That cuts down *significantly* on the stars you need to check.

>> It's also possible to do this with the XY grid being a hex grid. But
>> that means that the "common" side has to be the one with "columns" of
>> hexes.

> Not necessarily. It would look better, though. In the german RPG
> magazine 'Wunderwelten' there was an article about a space combat
> tabletop named 'Astrotech'. They extended it to 3D space, used a hex
> grid and didn't join the two maps on the column side. Looked not very
> elegant, but that is a matter of taste (IMHO)

I think you misunderstood. Assuming we were using a standard
*subsector* map as the XY map, the other map has to "attach" at the
"top" or the "bottom". It can't attach on either "side".

> What would you use? Cartesian coordinates or hex? (Hex looks cool
> while Cartesian coordinates are more accurate IMHO)

I'd probably go with the hex coords, plus a vertical coord. That way
you measure the distance in hexes (HD) on the XY map, then figure the
"real" distance as RD = sqrt(HD^2 + VD^2).

Cheap lookup table (rounded to one decimal):
    VD
HD  0	1    2	  3    4    5    6 
0   0	1    2	  3    4    5    6
1   1	1.4  2.2  3.2  4.1  5.1  6.1
2   2	2.2  2.8  3.6  4.5  5.4  6.3
3   3	3.2  3.6  4.2  5    5.8  6.7
4   4	4.1  4.5  5    5.7  6.4  7.2
5   5	5.1  5.4  5.8  6.4  7.1  7.8
6   6	6.1  6.3  6.7  7.2  7.8  8.5

I think we could have some fun if we used subsectors that were hexes
the size of the "unexplored space" charts from the old Alien Modules
and 7 levels "high".

       _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ 
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
    6 |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
    5 |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
    4 |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
    3 |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|      
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
    2 |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
    1 |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
    0 |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
      |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
      |  0  |  1  |  2  |/ 30 \  4  |  5  |  6  |
      |     |     | ____/      \____|     |     |
      |     |     |/ 21 \      / 41 \     |     |
      |     | ____/      \____/      \____|     |
      |     |/ 11 \      / 31 \      / 51 \     |
      |\____/      \____/      \____/      \____|
      |/ 02 \      / 22 \      / 42 \      / 62 \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \
      \      / 12 \      / 32 \      / 52 \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
       / 03 \      / 23 \      / 43 \      / 63 \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \
      \      / 13 \      / 33 \      / 53 \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
       / 04 \      / 24 \      / 44 \      / 64 \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \      
      \      / 14 \      / 34 \      / 54 \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
       / 05 \      / 25 \      / 45 \      / 65 \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \
      \      / 15 \      / 35 \      / 55 \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
            \      / 26 \      / 46 \      /
             \____/      \____/      \____/
                  \      / 36 \      /
                   \____/      \____/
                        \      /
                         \____/

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:57:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 2/12/98 4:19:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>
> << You've missed the whole *point* of the *idea* of war crimes.  >>
>
>      Actually, having been exposed to the Nuremburg trials in 2
> settings (as a US Army MP and while getting my degree in Criminal
> Justice)  I have come to the conclusion that the Trials were an
> absolute travesty of justice in many ways.  They were simply the
> final defeat of the Axis powers....they had nothing to do w/ justice.
> A prime and oft-quoted example of this is the conviction of Adm. Karl
> Doenitz, he was found guilty of Crimes against Humanity for
> conducting an unrestricted submarine campaign.  However, Adm.
> Charles Lockwood, USN, was nowhere to be seen!  His sub campaign did
> what Doenitz's couldn't...it led directly to the defeat of a warring
> power.

One of the scientists involved with the Manhattan District wrote an SF
story back in the 50s, set in a future where the Soviets got the upper
hand and the US had to surrender. The title was "My trial as a War
Criminal". He had the US commanders being tried for that sort of thing
as well as bombing of civilian targets (like Dresden). 

We may yet come to regret the precedents set in Nuremburg. But I do
feel that the idea that following orders may have consequences down the
road *is* a good one.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:36:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

In mail you write:

> The most efficient shape to fill 3d-space is the tetrahedron. Nature
> uses a 60 degree coordinate system, not a 90 degree Cartesian coordinate
> system.

Sorry, but regular tetrahedrons will *not* "tile" a 3d space! Not even
*close*.  Neither will regular octahedrons. A *combination* of regular
tetrahedrons and regular octahedrons will tile space. And regular
hexahedrons (cubes) will tile space. 

A 60 degree co-ordinate system is interesting, but it doesn't "fill
space" with tetrahedrons. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:08:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Ride (used to be Patriotism)

In mail you write:

> Greg Smith wrote:
>
>> A long standing dream of mine has been to ride the shuttle, or more
>> accurately, to eventually get into space...  Anyone share that dream?
>
> Since the Enterprise flight in 1976 or 1977! Before that I wanted to go to
> the moon. I had planned to be on Apollo 30 or so ...

Got you beat. Back in 67, a group of us got rather upset when one of us
discovered that the astronaut program required 20-20 *uncorrected*
vision. That killed it for *all* of us. 

Somewhat later (1974), I only half jokingly made made a bet with a
friend that was to be collected on at the Luna City gym in 2001. At
that time there was still a chance. One of these days I'm going to have
to ask Bill how we should "settle up" in 3 years.

>
>> Also, what would you pay (how much), in a world-wide lottery, for a
>> chance at a seat as an observer/mission specialist on one of the Space
>> Shuttles?  $50?  $100?
>
> I'd be willing to pay the following amount:
>
>         total amount spent = number of tickets issued x cost per ticket - 1
>
> The '-1' is so my wife can buy a ticket.
>
>
>
>
>
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:15:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

In mail you write:

>>If the Rorans dont work out I recommend anolas.
>>
>>I like anolas.  They are so fun and cuddly and I just want to be around
>>them awhole lot and love them and hold them and
>>duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh......
>
> Too many psionic animals in Traveller. AAnolas, Beakers etc. Give the
> players a seedspitter, they're clean, small, eat little, keep the flies
> living in the ships locker at decent level and can take zero-G quite well.
> Honest Jon at Bendor/Glisten orbital station sells small electroic targets
> with artificial flies on them so that you can train your pet. He also sells
> frozen flies that can be thawed out and will fly around a while before they
> die of cell structure damage to amuse the pet. My PCs had 12 kg of these
> flies in the fridge when somebody searched their ship for drugs and forgot
> to close the fridge door.
>
> The PCs arrived 8 hours later to find there starship shockful of flies and
> a nearly spherical "Speedy" lying on the floor.

Flat cats are a nice pet. And far fewer players wiull have read "The
Rolling Stones" than have seen the Star Trek episodes about Tribbles.
And flat cats are amusing in their own right. Having evolved to hide in
terrain much like the Painted Desert on Earth, they are the most
*ghastly* colors, shocking pinks, oranges, bright yellows are all
*natural* colors on them. 

And since they only have litters every 64 days, it'll take the players
a while to realize just what sort of time bomb they have. But as with
tribbles, if you don't over feed you won't have problems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:23:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alcohol proof

In mail you write:

> Personally I'd allow them a good chance of making Molotails, but give them
> an even better chance of messing up if they tried anything more fancy than
> that. Even if such things as fluid air bombs and poor man's napalm is
> _possible_ with kitchen chemistry, imagine the fun you can have with an
> industrial accident involving such stuff! ]:->

The above stimulated a buried memory. It *is* possible to make jellied
alcohol. It's nowhere near as bad as napalm, but it's bad enough. It's
basicly "Sterno" if you've ever encountered that.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #158
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 159



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starting a new thread (was Re: Alcohol Proof?)
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: water canopy
Re: Water Canopy
Re: Water Canopy
Re: The Conchie
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151
Re: Marines (was: Re: US Marines)
The sky is falling!!
RE: Imperium Games belly up?
Homeworlds and Loyalty
Best TML Acronym
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: CHVIEW
Re: What's IAC?
World War II (Off Topic)
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: System Defense Boats
Re: Null development in key areas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:29:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starting a new thread (was Re: Alcohol Proof?)

In mail you write:

> Belters and mining.
>
> I have read numerous statements to the effect that refuelling at a gas
> giant is a bad idea. I assume this is because it takes a lot of resources
> to get to a gas giant, which in turn garners you more cost than just buying
> the dang fuel at regular prices. Can the same argument be made about
> belters? Especially those using those Type-S Seekers, the ones with the
> laser drill?  First of all, doesn't it take more than just a laser drill to
> get valuable raw materials from an asteroid? You have to process it,
> correct? So if you just chop up a bunch of rock and load your hold, to take
> it back to base to get it processed, isn't this going to be expensive?
> Especially considering the ratio of junk rock to valuable ore? How do those
> belters make money, anyway?

Well, it all depends. For one thing, asteroids are going to be rsather
more homogenous than a planet. Most ore formimg processes just plain
don't work under the conditions they formed under. The only
"seperation" is that large enough bodies melted from internal
radioactivity in the early years of the system (billions of years back)
and then "settled" according to density under their own rather
miniscule gravities. Depending on details such as how big they were and
how close in they were, varying amounts of differentiation will have
occured and varying amounts of volatiles will have been lost. 

The laregest bodies in the outer system will have a shell of "ices"
over a shell of stony materials, over a shell of metals (mostly
nickel-iron, with varying amounts of anything that will dissolve in it).

Closer to the star, much of the ices are gone, and some will have been
converted to various CHON materials (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and
Nitrogen). Still closer, you have nothing but stony materials and metals.

Collisions will have broken off chunks of the outer layers, which can
result in "pure" chunks of ice, CHONdritic materials, stony materials,
or even metallic cores. And chunks can have stuff from adjacent layers,
giving you ice/CHON, CHON/stone, and stone/iron. 

Ice won't be found close in (say 5 AU minimum). CHON can survive much
closer (say .7 AU min). 

Ice is *very* valuable, because it's mostly water, methane and ammonia.
The water is valuable. The nitrogen is valuable. Even the carbon is
somewhat valuable. Water is valuable for drinking, for oxygen, and for
hydrogen fuel. Nitrogen and carbon are both needed for life support.

CHON is valauble because it's more concentrated source of carbon and
nitrogen as well as having some more complex organics. It's rather
lower in hydrogen and oxygen.

Stoney bodies aren't all that valuable. Unless you are willing to
process the whole thing to extract the "trace" materials, they are
mainly a source of silicon, aluminum, magnesium, and oxygen (the rock
is silicon/aluminum/magnesium oxides, much like rock here on Earth). 

The "trace" materials aren't to be sneered at. A cubic kilometer of
rock is 1e9 m^3. At around 4 tons per cubic meter, that means that
something that is one part per *billion* by weight will yield 4 tons
from that cubic kilometer. 4 tons of gold, or uranium isn't to be
sneered at. And they are actually likely to be more like one part per
*million*, which means you'd get 4 *thousand* tons. 

And, of course, the nickel iron bodies are useful for the iron and
nickel content. 

That laser drill is mostly for drilling in for samples (to determine if
your "rock" has a metal core) and for attaching things to the "rock". 

For ice and CHON, you will move small bodies to a processing center or
a habitat using your ship. You'll want to stick close becayuse they are
too damn valuable. For larger bodies, you'll request a "tug" (basicly a
*huge* engine with a small "ship" attached. You don't *dare* leave the
body for fear someone will steal it.

For stoney bodies, you might nudge them towards a smelter, or put in a
call for a "portable" smelter. Depends on the size of the rock, the
size of your ship, the demand for the (rather common) materials
involved and what sort of deal you can cut. You'll likely leave a stony
body with a claim marker on it, if you think it's worth the trouble.
Unless you get lucky and find one that's conveniently positioned, you
won't even make expenses messing with a hunk of stone.

For nickel-iron, you can make some money as iron is still pretty
useful, and it's not as much trouble to refine out. Still, you won't
get rich off a nickel-iron body.

It's the close-in ice, and the rather rare CHON bodies that you make
your money from. Make enough money, and you can buy a small "smelting"
rig. Basicly a solar power array (hydrogen is expensive in the belt), a
backup fusion or fission plant) and some plasma arc torches and
magnetic plasma seperation gear.

With a smelter, you can process nickel-iron on your own and make a
small profit at it. You might even be able to make a little money by
processing the stony material attached to stony/iron bodies. Processing
pure stony bodies is a desperation move.

Depending on how close to the iron core it was, (or if it came from the
core of a body too small for the iron to settle out) you might do
better than breaking even. But you can't count on that. 

Get a bigger smelter, and you might be ab;e to make a profit on "rock"
(in this case you *can* "make it up on volume" :-). But that sort of
unit is *really* expensive, and you either need to be in the "thicker"
part of the belt, or have tiugs that can move big asteroids to you, or
move you to the big asteroids.

Get the picture?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:25:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

In mail you write:

> I totally disagree here.  We are not talking about a balanced hull
> that with an integral drive onto a ballistic trajectory.  You are
> talking about slapping a drive unit on a chunk of rock and having it
> guide itself into a mass driver.  Even at the height of the drive
> debates (that I've followed), there has always been agreement (I
> think) that the drive _force_ comes from the M-drive itself, that it
> is not a field effect.  As an example of what I am trying to say, go
> outside, get a chunk of rock.  Balance it on a pencil (I'll even be
> nice and say use the eraser side) and walk across the room.  If you
> can do it, you are either luckier or much more cooridinated than most
> people (and you should consider a career as a rock jock!)

Actually, it won't be all that hard to figure out where the rock's
center of gravity is. If your thrust is aimed through that point, the
rock will fly straight. 

> This does not even take into consideration trying to counter any
> residual spin that the asteroid already has.

The spin on a rock a few km across is going to to require *incredible*
amounts of power to stop. I remember that from an old article,

> Considering how easy it is to turn a not-very-large asteroid into a
> orbital weapon, I would think that _any_ attempts at placing drive
> units on asteroids would be discouraged.  With predijuce.

Actually, it is very *hard* to do.

> .01 G may not sound like much, but give it enough time (i.e. the
> travel time from the asteroid belt to the Habitable Zone) and you got
> a screaming rock...

Actually, .01 g is an *incredible* lot.

Consider a one cubic kilometer chunk of "rock". Fairly light rock, it
only has a density of 4. That means that the rock masses 4e12 kg. Point
.01g is .1 m/s^2. F=mA.

F=4e12*1e-1
F=4e11 kg m/s^2

In other words, that engine has to have a thrust of 400 *billion*
Newtons! That's the thrust it'd take to move a 67 million ton (mass)
ship at 6g.

This "tiny" engine is bigger than the Seeker!

You don't move asteroids except with *huge* engines, and very, very slowly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:41:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: water canopy

In mail you write:

> Actually, while my cage is rattled and I've got the cloak off....
>
> I read ages ago about the idea of a 'water canopy' around the earth.  IIRC
> it was supposed to have been the cause of Noah's deluge or some such but my
> memory is hazy on the topic.
>
> I *do not* repeat *do not* wish to debate the merits or otherwise of the
> Biblical flood per se, but I would like to know if anyone can answer
> some/any of the following:
>
> a) how would a planet 'develop' such a canopy

It wouldn't. Water doesn't "float" on air.

> b) what would it look like from the planet (assuming it 'looks like'
> anything - I guess it may not)
> c) what would it look like from space (ditto the above)
> d) what effects would it have on the planet
> e) what effects would it have on local space travel (and other Travellerish
> considerations)
> f) how might such a canopy be 'burst'
> g) would this have the effect of a planetwide deluge and/or anything else?

All the above are irrelevant given the answer to A.

The only thing *remotely* like this that *might* be possible would be
to have a truly *enormous* amount of water vapor in the atmosphere. But
there are limits to how much water the air can hold, even if you
suspend it as microscopic droplets or ice crystals (ie "clouds"). 

Worse, water vapor is a "greenhouse gas". That means that the planet's
temp would go up. The extra light reflected by the cloud tops would
help, but likely not enough (the exact answer depends on exact figures
for things like "how much water").

But there's no way to keep this sort of enormous cloud cover from
turning into rain, except by having the surface of the planet too hot
for water to exist as a liquid. Which sort of defeats the purpose, and
reffectively gives you another Venus.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:53:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

In mail you write:

> What you are refering to as a "Water Canopy" is an explanation used by
> fundamentalist Christians (and, potentially I supposed, Muslims and Jews)
> to account for a literal interpretation of the flood myth of Genesis. It is
> not based on known science. More of a religious exercise of faith. Like
> saying that the mana God provided in the wilderness was, in fact, caused by
> asteroid showers. (Someone who couldn't tell carbyhydrates from
> hydrocarbons).
>
> Anyway, although as commonly described it is scientifically impossible, if
> you are looking for a similar situation there are some possibililties you
> can use.
>
> There are certain lakes in Africa which remain largely undisturbed for many
> years. Chemical layers build up within them along strict vertical
> stratifications. When something happens to destroy the equilibrium (a small
> earth tremour or landslide) a catastrophic turbulent reaction can happen
> which causes violent mixing of the layers. In one notable incident toxic
> gases which were disolved in one layer rose to the surface where they
> escaped into the air, "flooded" downhill, and engulphed a village causing
> many deaths.
> [From an article in New Scientist called "Africa's Deadly Lakes" I think.]

The idea was mapped to an entire planet in an Analog storiy about 5
years back. The planet had a cicrcular orbit and no axial tilt. It was
also close enough to the star that it never got to 4C even at the
poles. So the stuff that drained into deep oceans *stayed* there.

You see, 4C is the *densest* water gets, If the temp drops below that
the body of water "turns over", that is, the top layers will swap with
the bottonm layers.

When this doesn't happen, you get all the oxygen in the deep water
being used up, and bacteria using hydrogen sulfide take over. 

So in those lakes, and in the oceans of this hypothetical world, the
biundary between oxygenated water and H2S saturated water slowly works
it's way closer and closer to the surface. At some point, it gets close
enough for the mixing caused by wave action to reach to the H2S. When
that happens, the H2S gets access to the atmosphere and *boils* out of
the water. In the case of the lakes, it kills anything nearby as it
diffuses. It the case of the hypothetical *ocean*, it'll kill
much of the life on the planet.

>      Extrapolating from this, consider a planet with a dense atmosphere and
> a similar situation. Different gasses that might otherwise react kept
> separate by strict stratification. If the weather is normally boring there
> won't be much to disturb it. If the dynamics are solid enough, things like
> starships, and jets might not make much of an impression. But, say, there
> was a volcanic eruption (unlike if it was stable enough to form), or an
> asteroid strike, that might provide enough mixing for a chain reaction to
> start. If there was, say, a hydrogen layer and an oxygen layer, you might
> get a sudden ocean after one hell of a firestorm.

Hydrogen won't work. If the surface is at habitable temps, the hydrogen
will have a significant fraction of the molecules moving above escape
velocity, and thus it'll vanish as fast as it forms.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:03:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

In mail you write:

> The best explanation I've heard for Noah's deluge related it to
> memories of the end of the last Ice Age. The Mediterranean Sea basin
> was nearly empty, and had been for thousands of years. The shallow
> valley at the west end (Gibraltar) was enough to keep the oceans out.
> With the rise of the world ocean levels (all that water not locked up
> in ice any more), sea level breached Gibraltar and created the
> largest waterfall in history.

Alas, while a nice idea, this doesn't work either. Whgile the bottom of
the Med *has* been dry in the past, the most recent time was long
before man was on the scene. Something like 600 thousand years ago. 

The Med was nicely filled with water during the more recent Ice Ages.

The explanation for the flood myth is pretty simple. They originated
with the Assyrians and Babylonians. Who just happened to live ion a
wide flat plain between a *pair* of rivers!

Other cultures with flood myths also lived in areas that flood.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:56:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Conchie

In mail you write:

> Damn damn damn damn.
>
> The song was about a guy who refused orders *not* to go into the minefield
> to rescue the soldier.
>
> Sorry for the confusion.

Ah! That makes more sense. While I was having trouble with the idea
that a commander would *order* someone into a minefield to pick up a
comrade, I could almost see it happening.

What I was having a more trouble with was the idea of a *real* C.O.
who wouldn't be willing to try. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:02:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #151

In mail you write:

> Yes, it was funny the way the USAF used say how good their planes and
> pilots were on one hand, and then say how many Soviet planes there were and
> how the new Soviet planes were so dangerous on the other. All the while
> (because airpower is the way, the light and the truth) downplaying the real
> problem - that Soviet armoured divsions carried SAMs like a cat carries 
> fleas.

That's not a problem. No fighter jock worth his wings would be messing
around with mere *ground* forcers. He'd be way up there shooting at
other fighter jocks, right?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:02:05 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Marines (was: Re: US Marines)

At 11:27 PM 2/13/98 +1300, you wrote:
>>Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:23:46 -0800
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>>Subject: Re: US Marines

>>1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
>>in history?
>
>>Answers: 1> 0
>
>Whilst not being quite exactly what you're talking about, but 45 RM Commando
>landed on Gold beach (well they are "Marines") :*>. And Overlord (D-Day as
>it so oft and inaccurately called) was not the largest amphibious landing.
>That distinction goes to the invasion of Sicily which involved 185,000
>personnel as against Overlord's 181,000.

I was refering to USMC personel.  Our Marines tend to forget that all the
services have their role and believe their own press releases.  Reminding
them that the invasion of Fortress Europe was carried out without them helps.

If you count *all* the people involved, D-Day was bigger.

>ObTrav: How intense are the interservice rivalries in the 3rd Imperium. We
>know in M:0 the nobility have a tradition of duelling. Might we expect
>"Three musketeer"  style duels and rivalries. Do regiments have friendly and
>enemy regiments? Will a member of the 37th Martian Rifles (Cleon's Loyal
>Greens) take an instant and intense dislike to members of the 9th Regiment
>of Marine Infantry; challange a member of the 114th Deneb Cavalry to a duel
>on sight; and shout a round of drinks for anyone from the 13th Frontier
>Legion? Should we be digging out our copies of En Garde?

IMTU, rivalries are fairly common within each Subsector's Army.  This is
both planetary (Lunionites and Stroudenese hate each other), and Regimental
(the 243rd Frontier Rifles will never forgive the Adaman Cavalry for
failing to support them during a battle of the First Frontier War.)

These aren't overblown wars, but snubs, tricks, and the occasional duel do
result.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Nothing concentrates the military mind  |
|  so much as the discovery that you have  |
|  walked into an ambush."                 |
|                      -Thomas Packenham   |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:28:04 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: The sky is falling!!

Oh No!

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

What are you guys worried about anyway? So what if IG is having this
trouble or that, or refocusing it's efforts sideways. We're fans of
Traveller, and that's where the innovations come from.

If you're interested in seeing more products out there for Traveller, then
bloody well write them yourself. Need a place to publish them? If you're
willing to give them away, then contact me (ccjoe@missouri.edu) or Jeff
Zeitlin (Freelance Traveller: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com).

If you want $$ for it, then create your own publishing company and have a
go. God forbid you make a single mistake with this crew watching though,
they'll fry you for any mistep.

 joe                          (573) 884-6766
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:25:58 -0500
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: RE: Imperium Games belly up?

I received the following message from IG on 2/10/98 regarding their
continuing product development.
Greg Svenson

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	destination@destination2.com [SMTP:destination@destination2.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, February 10, 1998 2:53 PM
> To:	Svenson, Gregory (FL51)
> Subject:	Re: Product Status
> 
> >I want you to know that I own every book you have published at this
> >point. I am anxiously awaiting your remaining products. Can you provide
> >an update as when your remaining products will be released? These being
> >the T4.1 Deluxe Hardcover, Aliens Volume 1, Nobles and The Vilani
> >Hypothesis.
> >
> >Thanks from a loyal fan!
> >
> >Greg Svenson
> >gsvenson@space.honeywell.com
> >
> >
> All of these are in development, at different stages. The first of them
> should release in a couple of months.
> 
> Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:19:35 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Homeworlds and Loyalty

Doug Berry writes:
>
>I have to question your statement about Terra being the "homeworld" for
>many citizens.  I'm a first generation American, my father is from
>Stafferd, England.  I feel no sense of loyalty or connection to that far
>off place, that I've never seen.  That's with a seperation of forty years
>and about 10,000 miles.  Imagine if your family had left Earth over a
>thousand years ago, and dozens of light years behind!

I'm an immigrant, and my loyalty is to my chosen country.

But I've met third-generation Canadians whose first loyalty is to a
country they've never visited. I've seen them fight with other
third-generation Canadians over issues from "home".

A former colleague considered Israel her real home, although she lived
here in Canada, her parents were from somewhere in Eastern Europe, and she
attended synagogue only for her kids' bar mitzvas. 

I think that where loyalties are concerned, it's probably better to avoid
generalizations.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:30:35 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Best TML Acronym

And the prize for Best TML Acronym of 1998 goes to...

Doug Berry, for IMTU (In My Traveller Universe)

"IMTU, the Reserve Fleet for each Subsector is mostly support."

My apologies if somebody else used this one first.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:37:57 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

>What type of stuff is going on in everyone elses' heads?
>
>Semo

This is not a futuristic entertainment facility but rather a popular game
of chance especially popular among the Vargr (who originated it):

Dhe (six in Gvegh I think)
===
The gameboard consist of six squares where you can place your bets and a
croupier that handles the dice and bets.
The croupier rolls 2D6 inside an inverted cup so that nobody can see the result.
Each player bet on a number from 1 to 6.

a) If none of the dice shows your number you neither won nor lost. Your bet
remains on the table (some variants allow the withdrawal here or change of
number but generally this is not allowed).

b) If only one of the dice shows your number you lose.

c) If both dice show your number you win, collecting 9 times your bet.

The gamblers reasoning goes like this:
======================================
If none of the dice show my number I neither win nor lose so that's OK.
If one of the dice show my number there is a 1 in 6 chance the other one
will as well so if I get more than six times my money I'll gain on the
average.

Most Dhe tables generate quite a lot of cash so obviously the reasoning
above is flawed.
As any Traveller game will have 2D6 floating around (except perhaps the
heretical TNE bunch ;) so this game can easily be simulated during
sessions.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:29:56 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: CHVIEW

>>         CHVIEW! CHVIEW! CHVIEW!

>> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj

>> --


Bless you. Bless you. Bless you.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:09:50 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What's IAC?

IAC = In Any Case....

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:42:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: World War II (Off Topic)

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> > In anycase, the US can hardly be seperated out for
> > condemnation for using the tatics (bombing cities)
> > that their foe helped initiate and everyone in
> Although you must admid, American Cities remained relatively
> (relatively? Completely!) unbombed during the entire war. It wasnt even
> a "We must destroy them because otherwise they will destroy us", but
> rather a "They are doing things that work against our interest, get them
> away, the faster the better". I dont say the US should have just
> contained the Japanese, but Nuking two cities was a little over the top.
> Just do the math: How many lives were saved by those nukes? Substract
> the loss of life, direct and indirect, that was caused by the bombs. The
> result is negative, thus the use of the bombs was an evil thing to do.
> Yes Evil! It doesnt matter that it was against "The Enemy!!", it was
> directed against human life, against civilians. I see the use of the
> nuke as one of the great atrocities of the 2nd WW, but since the Victors
> commited it, it didnt cout, in their eyes, for they were "justified". 
> The Truth is always in the eyes of the beholder, history is written by
> the winners, and this even proves these statements.

The two nuclear bombs droped on Hiroshim and Nagasaki did not kill as many
people as many of the firebombing raids against Tokyo.  They just happened
to be particularly dramatic.  The Japanese were going to fight to the
death... even after the first bomb dropped, they weren't going to surrender.

The US was not in the war because they thought the Japanese might
inconvenience them.  The US was trying to stay out of the war but the
Japanese bombed Pearl Harbot in an attempt to cripple the US presence
in the Pacific so that they could operate with impunity.  They were
attacking other nations in their region and making war  They were also
allied with the Germans and Italians who were in the process of trying
to conquer Europe.



Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:23:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

>So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
>Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an
>Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?
>
>Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)

About $2 for each Imperial credit is the figure I use as a guideline or
rather (10 SKr per 1 Credit). As pricing is so strange in Traveller (have
you ever managed your trader PCs to pay taxes for instance?) I tend to use
10 000 Cr as average income and fiddle my prices around that.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:33:39 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

Hello Folks,
  Just a minor question here based upon CT tactics versus any of the other
version...

  Doesn't a home defense crew have a major advantage over a newly arriving
fleet when it comes to battles?  Specifically speaking - and I am not even
talking about the advantages involved in not having to jump away, or
firepower advantages...

  Ships that are low in fuel, taking a fuel hit, tend to suffer more than
ships with topped up fuel tanks...

  Comments?

   Hal

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:23:44 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> A 3 ship did hit those columns of some 5000 Iraqis and
> annihilated them.  Ground observers reported trucks were flying > 
50-100 feet in the air during the strike, which consisted of 150 > 750lb 
HE bombs.  So the B-52 is sexy, especially to Marines.
>

But we must NEVER forget that war IS hell....  Had a Marine friend from 
Vietnam...  Was in ANGLICO (ObTrav: they are the ones that drop to the 
planet surface and infiltrate to provide spotting/special prep before 
the main force arrives).  A car backfired while he was walking down the 
street.  He grabbed his wife and jumped into a dumpster for cover.  That 
stuff tends to stick with you a LONG time.

He was a SSgt....  Maybe another bit of character traits for the NPC/PC 
duo!

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #159
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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 160



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: Military Chaplans?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Traveller Items Wanted!
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: Stellar Maps
Wartime Games (was: GURPS Traveller)
Re: What CE means
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Royal Religion
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Inter-Service Rivalries
Re: Imperium Games belly up?
Re: System Defense Boats
Dhe odds (cool, I like it!)
RE: Imperium Games belly up?
Re: Traveller Items Wanted!
Passenger Liners
System Defense Boats
Sandcasters
Foriq Transporter (TL11)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:11:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

In mail you write:

> What effects does the J-Space lag have on the spread of such media
> (as an example, there are those here on earth who are constantly into
> 'the newest thing'.  It would be tough to get into the newest trends,
> fashions, etc. from the Imperium's core when you're in the Spinward
> Marches).

Check history. In the 12800s new arrivals in places like India or other
"frontier" areas would be grilled about the latest style back in the
capital (Paris, London, Washington). And that was at a time when it may
have taken 3 to 6 months to travel the distance.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:36:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Military Chaplans?

In mail you write:

> At 06:09 PM 2/12/98 GMT0, you wrote:
>>In-Reply-To: <6a83c447.34df7b9a@aol.com>
>>
>>> There were additional mandatory classes from the Chaplain on suicide,
>>
>>Wow, they even teach you how to do that? :-)
>
> Well, there is the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and the ARMY Way to do
> *everything*
>
> Mail me for a fun story about our instruction period on latriene ops.

Heck, back in WWI (and even WWII) the DIs thought it was a pain dealing
with the recruits from "back in the hills" who'd never *seen* a flush
toilet, and dfidn't bathe all that often.

Now consider the poor Imperial DI who has to deal with a batch of TL1
or even TL0 recruits!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:20:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 08:03 PM 12/02/98 -0700, Merrick wrote:
> >
> >PS-I know the sneak attack wasn't intentional, but did anybody know
> >(or _care_) in 1945?
> 
> I very much doubt they cared, but I'm pretty sure they knew, because the
> Japanese diploamtic cipher was broken, and they were reading the messages
> as fast as the Japanese Embassy.

Actually, no, as far as can be told from the historical record and
archives, we knew _something_ was up, but not any details. We had an
enormous amount of intercepted, undeciphered, deciphered, but
untranslated, and translated material on hand. They have found hints of
the attack in material we had, but this was only after the war as they
deciphered and translated some of the mass of untouched material.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:49:39 -0500
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Traveller Items Wanted!

Hi!
	I'm looking for a copy of the following items (Original or photocopies),
and I am willing to pay any reasonable price for the items, as well as
offering to trade items that I have.  The list of items wanted are:

	[DGP]
	101 Robots
	Grand Census
	Grand Survey
	Mega traveller Journal #1 & #2


	[GDW]
	Traveller Articles from Challenge #25-39
	(Original copies Only of the following:
		Alien Module: Droyne
		Alien Module: Zhodani
	)

	[Gamelords]
	Undersea Environment
	Mountain Environment
	Desert Environment


	I have a good collection assembled from several other people's collections
which I have purchased.  Not surprisingly I have several items duplicated,
and so have quite a selection of original items to offer in trade for any
of the above items listed.  If anyone can help to finish my collection with
the above items, the act would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:37:34 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

Hello There,
  <Grinning> I am not sure if you were joking or not, so I will presume
that you were.  The point that I will make however, is that the Imperial
credit was presumed to be worth $2 US.  The exchange rate was already
factored in <wink>.

At 07:22 AM 2/13/98, you wrote:
>Moin HAL,
>
>> In an article in a magazine, it was attributed to Marc Miller saying that
>> each imperial credit was worth $2 US.  This was written in 1994 or so.  
>
>	this is of course america centristic. the exchance rate of a local
>	TL:7 credit of a system with a cargo shuttle, to the imperial TL:F
>	class A starport credit is known to be 1/2 since merchant prince.
>	as the imperial credit is a vilany system, we'll will would now
>	have exchange rates of 1VilaniCr equals $1.30.
>
>-- 
> mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
>		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:15:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Stellar Maps

In mail you write:

> 3D starmaps are all well, and good...but I'm waiting for some kind soul to
> come up with a workable method of displaying 5-dimensional maps.  Then I can
> get my proposed 'Traveller:  Legion of Dynamic Discord vs Spawn of
> Shub-Niggurath and the Sylean Illuminati' campaign off of the ground.

As ong as you use a computer and allow rotation about all 5 axes, and
translation (ie forward/backward movement) along all 5 you can do ok.
After enough exposure some of the players will be able to "visualize"
the 5d relationships.

I'm actually fairly serious in the above. There's a program that let's
you manipulate a hypercube in the manner described above (even has
support for using the red/green "3d" glasses) and it's reported that
many people *do* acquire the ability to "visualize" the manipluations
in "4d".

So I figure that at least *some* can do so in 5d. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:48:31 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Wartime Games (was: GURPS Traveller)

>>My problem with the MT backround is that playing during wartime sucks.
>>Either you are an insignificant nobody as mighty fleets roll past, or 
>>you
>>are part of the military, with limited options.  From where I sit, 
>>most MT
>>campaigns stayed in the SM, and ignored the whole thing.

During the Biafran War there was a mercenary pilot who was essentially the
Biafran Air Force. At one stage he was running food and medical supplies
in, children out, in a light civilian plane. I believe he (and similar
mercenaries) were the inspiration for Forsythe's characters in "The Dogs
of War".  

I agree that being in the middle of a fleet action limits your options.
But there are plenty of adventures that don't involve that. Use something
like the abstract system from CT book 4 to resolve the conflict and just
tell the players a story of what they've witnessed, then let them move on
helping people.

Mind you, I have (as you've no doubt noticed) a bias towards humanitarian
adventurers. 

My players are heroes (admitted eccentric, troubled, and quarrelsome
heroes) who would (and did) fight an Aslan singlehanded to save someone
they never met (bitching all the time about the damn Impy diplomats who
don't do their ^&*^ homework and couldn't negotiate their way out of a wet
paper bag); warriors who find time in a firefight to tell a toddler a
story to stop the tears; quixotic nobles who take on the entire Imperium
to preserve the peace on a border world.

It's fun. And isn't that the whole point?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:20:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What CE means

In mail you write:

> Well, the fact that there is not a problem with the calendar we have may
> enter into the picture.  :-)
>
> Our current calendar has an accuracy of 1.000000766583.  In fact, under the
> calendar we currently use, there will be no need to adjust anything until
> the year 3,571.  Although, if I were in charge, I'd wait until the year
> 3,572.  Then the change would be a simple matter of skipping a leap year.

Depends on *which* "current calendar" you are talking about. The Greek
Orthodox Church (and, reportedly, the Soviet Union) adopted a modifiued
leap year rule. They agree that years evenly divisible by 100 normally
aren't leap years. Where they differ is in deciding which ones *should*
be.

The grogorian calendar say that only century years evenly divisible by
400 should be leap years. That's the one that'll have problems in 3571
or so. 

The Russian calendar says that only century years that when divided by
900, leave a remainder of 200 or 600 should be leap years. It'll be off
by a day somewhere around the year 45,000 AD. 

> Many think that 01/01/2,000 will mark the beginning of the 20th century.
> This just isn't the case.  Instead, it marks the beginning of the last year
> of the 19th.  The new century and millennium will begin 01/01/2001. 

You just shot yourself in the foot. *This* is the 20th century. What
folks think will be starting is the *21st* century, or perhaps the
*third* millenium. 

First century Jan 1, 1 AD thru Dec 31, 100 AD.
First Millenium Jan 1, 1AD thru  Dec 31, 1000 AD.
Second Millenium Jan 1, 1001 AD thru Dec 31, 2000 AD.
20th century, Jan 1, 1901 AD thru Dec 31, 2000 AD.

:-)
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:45:44 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> On Thursday, February 12, 1998 7:25 PM, Erwin Fritz [SMTP:efritz@glja.com]
> wrote:
> > Don't forget that at that minimal acceleration, it gives the star
> system's defensive forces
> > plenty of time to react to it if it gets too close to a planet. The
> reaction time would be
> > measured in days or weeks!
>
> Only once it is detected.  And it could be given a trajectory that would be
> measured in weeks - giving the perps plenty of time to depart the area!
>

You're right, but that's part of a larger issue -- how to defend against
untracked projectiles. That's not specific to belt mining. One can assume
(because one MUST) that the star system has something in place for this
contingency.

> > For non-ferrous rocks, you'd need another way of accelerating the
> beasties though. The spinal
> > mount ship should also be (or carry) a large "tugboat", so it can, using
> its own M -drive,
> > launch rocks (by pushing them). The processing company needs to have a
> couple of these tugs
> > around its end of the journey to decelerate them. You want a couple in
> case one fails.
>
> Actually, for those types of rocks, I was envisioning either a metal rod
> run through the rock, or a 'jacket' that the rocks would be placed into.
>  Either would be recoverable and reusable.
>

On that we disagree, although there's probably room for both solutions in the
universe. The danger, as I see it, with a metal rod run through the rock is
that you risk splitting the rock or drilling into something that just won't
give. This method is expensive and time consuming.  The jacket idea is also
expensive because that's a lot of material to use.

Since densitometers are commonplace, it is a trivial exercise to determine the
center of mass of a rock and to have your tug grapple it in such a way that the
vector of thrust goes through that center.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:37:24 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Royal Religion

> Obtrav...  have any of the Emperors or Empresses been religious?
Well, you can look at it like this. As the leaders of a massive empire,
there has got to be one or more planets whereby they are seen as deities.
Like in Sumeria where the head of the city, (the lugal) was considered
divine and married to the city patron god or goddess (depending on the
Lugal's gender). Also I believe there were a number of south sea islands
where Cooke was worshiped.
So, de facto, they are going to be part of a religion. Maybe not willingly,
or personally, but I don't think they would be that keen on denying the
opportunity to please a couple of planets by recording a few seasonal
announcements.
Now, in a M:0 context, there is no way that Cleon is worshiped in Sylea.
He's just an upstart merchant. It isn't unlikely, though, that all the
Nobles of Sylea have a common religion. Now, as they expand, there will be
lots of primitive worlds that are much more likely to join the Imperium if
Cleon is presented as a god.
As a parallel, Babylon, when it conquered places, would take their holy
statues and bring them to their roiyal court. The logic/propaganda was, if
their gods payed court to babylon, so should they. (Incidentally, that's
why they carted off the Ark of the Covenant when they captured Jerusalem,
it was the nearest the Jews had to a holy statue.)
So, similarly, I would suggest that in newly confronted worlds where
religion played a major part, you would get a lot of adoption of
Cleon-as-(a)-god as a successful strategy for Imperial acceptance. The
locals would probably except if they already have a pantheonic religion and
it would give them a structure for relating to the Empire.
Projecting this onward into later ages, the proportion of new worlds soon
vastly outnumbers the number of old Sylea ones, so you have a lot of places
where the God-Emporer idea is prevalent. I'm sure that it would eventually
become adopted as state policy.

So, the way I play later milieu's, the official state religion is a mixture
of the old Sylean one (which strongly resemble Akkadian gods) with the
Emporer and Empress as deities within it. The state, though, is secular,
and religious freedom accepted. Sort of like Britain has a Constitutional
Monarchy, the Emporer is a Constitutional God.

Jo

PS: I actually have some Akkadian myths reworked into a 3rd Imperial
context somewhere...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:42:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

In mail you write:

> A good model might be American Judaism. It has survived thousands of
> years of persecution, but is presently dying, ironically as a result
> of the very success American Jews have had in America. They have
> intermarried and the children are being raised practising other
> religions (or none at all), because it is easier to blend in (by not
> having to be obviously different). I think it may come down to all
> American Jews disappearing, except for the 10% who are Orthodox (and
> thus very similar to Fundemantal Christians and Muslims in their
> outlook). In Traveller, I would think that religions (expecially
> Terran ones), would have similar problems. The pressure to assimilate
> and fit in, would tend to force religions to become militant and/or
> Orthodox to fight the "outside influences".

You have a *huge* unstated assumption here. If there really *is*
religious tolerance (something our society does *not* have), then
"be[ing] obviously different" is *not* a problem. Heck, if your faith
accepts converts it may even *get* you converts.

Likewise, you are *assuming* a "pressure to assimilate and fit in". 


> Another interesting point is local religion that is unacceptable to
> the Imperium,

They'd have to be rather "far out" for that to happen given the sort of
goverments the Imperium accepts, I can't see many religions being a
problem. It'd take something like *involuntary* human sacrifice to get
the Imperium interested.

> or even the local's reaction to "outside" ie. Imperial missionaries.

Reactions to outside missionaries I can agree with. But said
missionaries won't be "Imperial" except in having Imperial citizenship.

I suspect that a common complaint from *many* faiths will be "Why won't
you let us stop those horrible people?" when said "horrible people" are
merely following a different religion.

> A last point is the potential for Vilani vs. Solomani religious
> bigotry. If you look at Northern Ireland, the Middle East, and
> India-Pakistan; religious differences directly and/or indirectly
> influence politics. How would this be modeled in the Imperium? (I
> won't even go to religious differences among the Zhodani and the
> other major races).

Frankly, I prefer an Imperium where the goverment's *only* interest in
religion is in making sure that you aren't causing trouble for members
of *other* religions. 

Given that "Religious Dictatorship" is one of the *allowed* government
types, the Imperium *must* have a mostly "hands off" approach. You'd be
allowed to enforce your religion on *your* world (give the right
government type), but you wouldn't be allowed to enforce it outside
your territory. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:14:46 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Inter-Service Rivalries

Volker Grieman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ObTrav: How intense are the interservice rivalries in the 3rd Imperium. We
> know in M:0 the nobility have a tradition of duelling. Might we expect
Well they keep secrets from each other, Army and Navy intelligence
sometimes work against each other (see: Signal GK). How far rivalry
goes, i dont know, but i suppose it is rather peaceful, similar to the
situation between the branches today (jokes and devaluation yes, maybe
sometimes a barroom brawl, but no real fighting)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the MT Adventure _Arrival Vengeance: the Final Oddysey_ , intra-service rivalries are mentioned - in the Imperial Navy, between the crews of different ships. Apparently it is quite traditional, including such things as what to shout during barroom brawls.

When throwing bottles: "Incoming"
Proper response to thrown bottles (if, I expect, you don't have a bottle on hand to throw): Hurl bar peanuts and ashtrays while shouting "Sandcasters!". 

I got the feeling the rivalry was rather good-natured - the situation described was between the player character's crew (the Arrival Vengeance) and that of a medium warship from Lucan's empire. Even though Lucan's empire was invovled in a civil war, and the players were from an unaligned faction, old Navy traditions were in force.

Though I imagine an Army trooper who good-naturedly pitched a bottle would get his head knocked in...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:24:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up?

Stephan Aspridis wrote:

>This morning, I found this posting in rec.games.frp.misc.
>Does anyone know more?

   Well actually no.  In fact, I find it remarkable that I could have sent
such a post, considering that I didn't even send anything to a newsgroup
last night.

>Harold, I hope you don't mind this cross-posting, but this seems to be urgent.

   As far as I know, IG is still in business and still selling product.  If
that is not true, then I wish someone would tell me.

Regards,

Harold

P.S.  Given that anyone can pretend to be anybody on a mailing list (I can
give you specific instructions on how to do this with Netscape if you would
like), I would chalk this up to wild ass rumor, nothing more.

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:28:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>   Ships that are low in fuel, taking a fuel hit, tend to suffer more than
> ships with topped up fuel tanks...
> 

The opposite would be true in space ships with tanks of pressurized
hydrogen.  Most likely, the hydrogen is stored as a cryogenic liquid
and if the tank were breached, would boil off and let out a jet of
hydrogen gas.  This jet would act as a cold gas rocket and could
explode if mixed with oxygen, either stored (life support) or in
the ship's atmosphere.  A mostly empty tank is filled with less,
lower pressure hydrogen and wouldn't cause as many problems.

The reason that low tanks are a problem on Earth is that they fill up
with oxidizer (our atmosphere) as they empty, creating potential bombs.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:25:55 -0600
From: Chris Olson <Chris_Olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Dhe odds (cool, I like it!)

Anders Backman wrote:

<SNIP!>

> Dhe (six in Gvegh I think)
> ===
>

<SNIP!>

> The gamblers reasoning goes like this:
> ======================================
> If none of the dice show my number I neither win nor lose so that's OK.
> If one of the dice show my number there is a 1 in 6 chance the other one
> will as well so if I get more than six times my money I'll gain on the
> average.
>
> Most Dhe tables generate quite a lot of cash so obviously the reasoning
> above is flawed.
> As any Traveller game will have 2D6 floating around (except perhaps the
> heretical TNE bunch ;) so this game can easily be simulated during
> sessions.

Hmm, this one took me  while to figure out.  I'm a combinatorics nut, but a little
rusty, so bear with me here on the logic...

2d6 generates 36 possible cominations.
1 combination wins 9x bet
5 have the number on die 'a' but not on die 'b', lose bet
5 have the number on die 'b' but not on die 'a', lose bet

so you basically have 1 in 10 chance of winning, so you need greater than 10x return
to win in the average (9x return is the highest a casino will go, btw, they want to
make money).  It's no wonder I don't gamble.

Now, this betting scheme is pretty simple.  Gamblers, however, are known for thier
creative betting.

How about letting them pick two numbers?  Any pair nets 9 for each 2 bet.  Gamblers
might think this a safe bet (net win, higher chance to win any given roll, smaller
each win)

logic:
2d6 generates 36 possible combinations:
4 combinations win ?x bet
16 combinations lose
chance to win is 1 in 4.


How about red/black bets (basically odd/even)?  Any pair nets 9 for each 4.
Gamblers might do this one for a safe rider.

logic:
2d6 generates 36 possible combintions:
9 combinations to win
18 chances to loose
chance to win is 1 in 2


What you've created here is basically roulette with 2d6!  I like it!  This has a
place in my Spinward Marches campaign (aka, The Traveller Adventure!)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:33:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: RE: Imperium Games belly up?

Svenson, Gregory (FL51) writes:

>I received the following message from IG on 2/10/98 regarding their
>continuing product development.
>Greg Svenson
>
>> All of these are in development, at different stages. The first of
>> them should release in a couple of months.

   Well *that* pretty well clears everything up, can we please go back to
hedgehog talk?  The concept is rather interesting and I'd rather not see the
list erupt into 'PANIC' mode just yet.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:13:41 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Items Wanted!

In a message dated 2/13/98 9:00:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
scspieker@ncweb.com writes:

<< [GDW]
 	Traveller Articles from Challenge #25-39 >>

I probably have most of these issues...could maybe arrange some photocopies if
they are OK.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:15:18 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Passenger Liners

In a frantic attempt to counteract the religious debate through diversion,
I offer up another question.

For the economists on the list: Are really big passenger liners
economically feasable? I am talking like in the 300,000+ ton range, like
the QE2 in space. Given the fact that it costs approximately a year's
salary to go off-world, would you be able to fill such a liner to capacity
enough that it would recoup it's costs?

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:39:52 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: System Defense Boats

Hal wrote:

>>>>>>>>

  Ships that are low in fuel, taking a fuel hit, tend to suffer more than
ships with topped up fuel tanks...

  Comments?

>>>>>>>>>

That was something I'd wondered about. Which would cause more harm to a spaceship/starship, a weapon strike to an empty fuel tank or a strike to one full of hydrogen?  Does the hydrogen act as a damage buffer or is it explosive? Or would it matter what kind of weapon was doing the damage? I'd always thought it odd that designs such as the CT 400-ton Dragon SDB put fuel tanks on the outside and called it "damage buffering", made me think of those WWII soviet AFV's with the gas tanks exposed on the rear decks...

In High Guard, one of the best ships to be in when under meson attack was a config-7 (dispersed structure) hull - all those modules strung together on an open framework, chances are the meson strike would go off in empty space.

But isn't an Azhanti High Lightning Jump-5 Frontier Cruiser almost 50% empty space when it's jump fuel tanks are dry?

I don't think the rules pay attention to this, but perhaps (especially with very high jump capable vessels) they should. And I imagine battle tactics would be very, very different if there was a risk factor to carrying around full tanks of fuel with you. The commander would get to choose: Does he preserve his capability to escape into jump space at the cost of increased vulnerability to critical hits?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:15:19 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Sandcasters

Here is something I have always wondered. How do you detect someone firing
lasers at you without actually being hit? Specifically, this is a question
when using sandcaster -- if you are in a potential combat situation
(emphasis on potential) do you immediately deploy the ablative sand, or do
you wait until they begin firing? If you deploy the sand and then make a
vector change, you lose the protection of the sand, right? So you are stuck
on the same vector if you want to keep it's protection. But if you don't
deploy it immediately, then you are toast if the other ship opens fire on
you with lasers, since there is no possible way to detect the accurate
incoming fire until it hits you.

Or is the sand so effective at ablating laser fire that you only need to
"leak" it out?

How *do* sandcasters work, anyway? Do you launch cannisters that manuever
away from the ship and then explosively deploy the sand? Do you spray it
around the ship like water from a firehose or sprinkler (another possible
use for unrefined fuel :-)? Would water work as well as "sand?"

Okay, this is a muddled question, so I'll break it down so that my simple
mind can understand it.

1) Can you detect incoming fire from lasers (or other energy weapons, for
that matter) without being hit? If so, how?

2) How does a sandcaster work?

3) What is the SOP for using sandcasters as defensive weaponry?

One caveat: I understand the grav-focus lasers involve a grav field
traveling with the em beam to keep it coherent, so if the first shot is a
miss, you might be able to detect it with a densitometer. Or would you? If
you could detect it, that would mean the field is losing energy because it
is radiating, and wouldn't that be bad for the focusing effect? Is the grav
focus beam "coherent"?

One more question: If the 3I has grav focus beams, why not repulsors?

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:36:30 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Foriq Transporter (TL11)

Foriq Transporter (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

This vehicle was designed using the rules in the Central Supply Catalog,
with the following variations: realistic unloaded speed, realistic stress.

Summary:
     5.00 displacement ton open-topped box;  38.5 tonnes;  kCr 37.8
Chassis:
     70.0 kL open-topped box (6.4 m long x 3.3 m wide x 3.3 m high);  
Structure: 2.19 tonnes of crystaliron, rated for 2.0Gs, body 0.010 cm
thick, 1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     1.50 MW TL11 fusion plus generator; Fuel: 59.3 L of enriched water
(59.3 kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 1.50 MW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 70 km/h loaded, 401 km/h unloaded; 
Range: 7009 km loaded, 39960 km unloaded; Agility: +1DM (2.0G); 
     
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     Subcontinental Radio (100 W, TL11, SmVcl);  Range: 300 km

Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Construction Equipment: crane can lift 11.0 tonnes
     63.5 kL of cargo space (31.8 tonnes)

The Foriq Transporter is a bare-bones design intended for bulk transport
in remote regions. Lacking any creature comforts except a canvas roof, it
is simply an open box with a set of contragrav lifters. Unloved by its
drivers, Foriqs are usually found carrying ore between mineshaft and
smelter, servicing operations too small to warrant their own loading
cranes.


(Designed with Infini-V: Traveller's Vehicle Design Studio. Copyright
Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #160
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 161



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: Traveller Minor Race Generation
Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)
Re: Human Race Homeworlds
Re: the Bomb
Re: Alcohol proof
Re: Imperium Games belly up?
Re: Traveller Items Wanted!
Re: 3D sectors
"Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'
Re: Water Canopy
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: The sky is falling!!
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Re: Ine Givar (long)
Re: Belters
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
GG refueling
Re: Belters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:30:19 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Volker A. Greimann writes:
>A unified, hierarchial church cant encompass this large a space.
>It wouldnt (and Shouldnt) work!
Huh? Like, er, the 3I is based on the Age of Colonisation, with far
flung regions kept together by infrequent ships. Where it could take
two years for a message to cross the Empire. It was an environment
various religious groups (the Jesuits come to mind) flourished in.
Think: the dominant religion in Latin and South America today is a
direct result of how successful they are.
  Your argument doesn't stand.

>> I am leaning very strongly to making it based on
>> Judeo-Christianity.
>DONT DONT!!!
>The Terran influence is there, but it shouldnt have had that high an
>influence that people gave up their religion when the Terrans came.
Why not? They give up their rulership and their language, buy into
the Cultural Imperialism, religion is just one part of that.
  The Judeo-Christian tradition is probably the one most familiar to
Steve's players. It makes a good enough choice. (In my own variant
universe you have the Holy Terran Confederacy instead of the Solomani
where the religion is an evolved version of Judism, Christianity, and
Muslim.)

>> Is there any canon about the christianity from Terra?
>Its still exists on Terra itself, but not as many followers there as
>today
The fellow asked for canon. This sounds like a personal opinion. Can
you quote a reference.

>Organized religion already is on
>the way out on this here world IMHO!
  You betray your bias. I'm not going to challange your personal beliefs.
But from a historical viewpoint, there has _always_ been organised
religion. Ever since the dawn of humanity. Some times of more direct
impact on day to day life, sometimes less so. If you look at the world
_as a whole_ the same is true.
  So, when projecting a future that is as far in advance as the 3I, I go
much more for historical models than perceived modern trends. In
the end the averages win.

>> I've got no problem having christianity survive to 2099 or whenever
>> contact was
>Survive: Yes!
>Spread to other worlds: A Bit, ok!
>Spread Imperiumwide: No Fucking way.
I've no doubt that Christianity will survive, in some form. Maybe not in a
recognisable way. After all, Christianity as practiced today would be
pretty much unrecognisable to any 1st century "christian". There
hasn't been a religion yet that has survived for more than a century or
two that wasn't based on a previous religion. You could consider
Zororasterism to be surviving today as represented by its influence
on the Christian Eucharist. If you accept that, then I think you can
safely assume that it will be.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller Minor Race Generation

In-Reply-To: <55227b81.34e1c485@aol.com>

> Although the Traveller universe is human-dominated, it is also a cosmopolitan
> territory filled with a vast array of non-human intelligences. Many settled
> worlds boast a native intelligent race which evolved long before humanity
> arrived.

Um.
I'm not sure about this. If you're not careful, you could easily slip into the 
Star Trek "alien of the week" syndrome. Traditionally, Traveller has 
concentrated on a small number of sentient alien races, covering them in 
considerable detail. What I don't want to see is the Imperium suddenly filling 
up with thousands of sentient minor races (dumb aliens are fine).
Saying that, I'd still like a copy!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:01 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)

In-Reply-To: <34E26647.112E@ebicom.net>

> > This may start a war (and I've never been in a *real* one), but I have
> > heard that the *Vandoo* (Canadian, Quebec) were every bit as tough and
> > possibly better trained than the Marines. Maybe that was just the
> > appreciative comment of my brother.
>  
> Actually the Ghurkas are pretty much the all time nail eaters.

Oh yes. You do *not* mess with the Gurkhas. Not twice, anyway.

> Royal Marines are reputed to be just as good if not better than the
> average US Marine.

Well, RMs certainly think so...
And we can't forget the Paras...I wouldn't like to say if they're better 
or worse than RMs.

> The only way to really find out is to pit them against each other, but
> then you have no nastiguys left:(
>  
> I sort of see the Aslan as the Imperiums ghurkhas

Nah...Aslan have no sense of humour, (the only thing a G likes more than 
fighting is laughing). It's gotta be the Ithklur.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Human Race Homeworlds

In-Reply-To: <70a4a8fe.34e1d9e9@aol.com>

> I am compiling a list of human races the majors, of course, plus some minors)
> and I want to show their homeworlds as well. Any information that someone can
> point to would be helpful. Or suggestions for additions.
 
We know there are ~46 minor human races.
 
Clayton R. Bush & Bryan Borich have compiled a list (see 
http://members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/racelist.htm ), which gives:
 
MINOR HUMAN RACE  SOURCE*    HOMEWORLD
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
*Altareans        Chuck Kallenbach,       Vanguard Reaches   Subsector N
 Answerin         Travellers' Digest 5    Vland 0431 Answerin/Parsi
*Azhanti          James Maliszewski       Antares 2315 Irale/Gimgir
?Bye-Ren          Aliens Archive          Bye-ren-ay-Deltii
 Cafadans         Travellers' Digest 3    Corridor 3135 Cafad/Sashrakusha
 Darrians         Alien Module 8          Spin. Marches 0627 Darrian/Darrian
*Darmine          Darmine cultual region  Zarushagar 1323 Ishag/Liasdi
?Dynchia          Journal 24              Leonidae 0633 Melantris/Yuddunn
 Floriani         Travellers' Digest 23   Trojan Reach 0213 Floria/Yggdrasil
 Geonee           Travellers' Digest 11   Massilia 1430 Shiwonee/Shiwonee
 Halkans          Travellers' Dig. 20 p8  Trojan Reach 0510 Halka/Menorial
 Happirhva        Far Traveller 2         Reaver's Deep 1218 Rejhappur/Scotian Deep
 Irhadre          Grand Census?           Lishun 0935 Chanadre/Welling
 Issugur          Alien Realms p3         Iakr Parthinia
*Kaggushus        Proposed by Clay Bush
 Lancia           Imperial Encyclopedia   Gushemege 2207 Irkhi/Taapv
*Liberts          Proposed by Clay Bush   Old Expanses Nullia
 Loeskalth        Skyraiders trilogy      Gushemege M
*Menetha          J. Kundert (Farstar)|?|
 Otrai            JTAS 13 p10
+Ronni            Flaming Eye
 Suerrat          Alien Module 8          Ilelish 1710 Volomil/Miitan
 Syleans          Travellers' Digest 9    Core Capital
 Tapazmal         Travellers' Dig. 20 p27 Reft 3134Dlaejen/Moibin
?Tekundu          Aliens Archive          Yulanii
 Thaggeshi        Vilani & Vargr p18      Vland 2530 Thaggesh/Anakod
 Vlazhdumecta     Sky Raiders trilogy
*Yileans          Mike Mikesh             Gashikan 2732 Gashikan/Gashilean
*Ziadd            Duncan Law-Green        Dagudashaag 0721Zeda/Zeda
 Urunishani
 
"*" Indicates unofficial. "?" or "[]" indicate as yet unnamed races, or unmapped 
locations. 
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: the Bomb

In-Reply-To: <dc88111e.34e256c6@aol.com>

> > I would not have wanted to be
> >the first on to the beaches of the Japanense mainland.  I would have
> >let the bombs fall.  It is fortunate that there was a rapprochment after
> >the war that allowed us to de-demonize the Japanese.
>  
> I have an uncle who had a 1st class ticket to be in the first wave ashore in
> Japan. He had survived several amphib landings, he tells me, and didn't expect
> to survive that one. I do not blame him for being glad the first bomb was
> dropped. I am still undecided about the second, but hindsight is 20/20, as
> they say. In Truman's shoes, I would probably have made the same decision.

According to an article I read a couple of years ago, the US military were 
seriously considering using chemical weapons on Japan if the atomic bombs didn't 
work. After their earlier experiences of attacking Japanese-held islands, they 
did *not* want to invade the mainland without softening them up as much as 
possible first.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Alcohol proof

In-Reply-To: <199802121126.MAA06600@skade.diku.dk>

Hans,

> >  Any other ideas for the use of distilling and such for purposes of warfare?
>  
> Flamethrowers? Hook a steam engine driven pump to a supply of flammable
> liquid and hose down your opponents. Great fun when the fuel tank is
> accidentally set on fire.

Flamethrowers were only used by PCs once in my campaign. The person they were 
fighting had a laser, and hit the fuel tank...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 19:09:25 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up?

Harold D. Hale wrote:
>
>   Well actually no.  In fact, I find it remarkable that I could have sent
> such a post, considering that I didn't even send anything to a newsgroup
> last night.
>
> P.S.  Given that anyone can pretend to be anybody on a mailing list (I can
> give you specific instructions on how to do this with Netscape if you would
> like), I would chalk this up to wild ass rumor, nothing more.
>
O.K. Filed as 'typical internet rumor (TM)'. That is one of the things I hate about
this whole newsgroup thing. Not only it isn't possible to determine whether something
posted is true, but it also isn't possible to determine who posts it. Thinking about that,
there are at least three people I know that could use my name and account for posting 
anything they want... time for a new password!

Sorry about any panic I've caused. Just forget the whole thing.

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:52:21 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Items Wanted!

>  [DGP]
>         101 Robots
>         Grand Census
>         Grand Survey
>         Mega traveller Journal #1 & #2
> 


Journal #1, is that the one with the various types of Battledress?  And
the Concise history of the Rebellion?  Also has some sector called
"Wardn"??

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:55:00 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > The most efficient shape to fill 3d-space is the tetrahedron. Nature
> > uses a 60 degree coordinate system, not a 90 degree Cartesian coordinate
> > system.
> 
> Sorry, but regular tetrahedrons will *not* "tile" a 3d space! Not even
> *close*.  Neither will regular octahedrons. A *combination* of regular
> tetrahedrons and regular octahedrons will tile space. And regular
> hexahedrons (cubes) will tile space.

heh. Of course you're right. I've really got to re-read before hitting
the ol' send button. :-) I was caught up in the fact that the
tetrahedron is the minimum regular solid, and defines the "unit volume"
in a 60-degree system. You need tetrahedrons and octahedrons in a 2:1
ratio to fill space.

FWIW, rhombic dodecahedra* fill space in a 60 degree coordinate system,
and each rhombic dodecahedron has a unit volume of 6 (rel. to tetra).

*Rhombic Dodecahedron = 12 diamond-shaped faces

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:10:24 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'

A rough draft of a device I thought up last night while going to bed since the
Traveller entertainment thing was running through my mind.  Please e-mail me
with any questions, suggestions, or other responses concerning the device.
There are actually a couple of little adventuring ideas that came to mind when
I reread the message, one is obvious (the pirated decoding chips) and the
other is not so obvious (I will hint that I often prefer to give my characters
valuable items instead of normal 'monetary' treasure).  If nothing else, the
device could add background flavor to your campaign (that is, after all, what
Traveller is all about, right?).  Hope you enjoy it.

Dress Me Up

Based on toys from Vland and Terra, the "Dress Me Up" set is an electronic,
holographic version of a number of classic, age old childrens' toys such as
Barbie, Kisyakae Dolls, Admii, and the countless dress up dolls that have
existed on many of the worlds humaniti exists on.  "Dress Me Up" is the
Imperial trademarked name for one such toy but a number of imitators have
sprung up.  "Dress Me Up" is the most popular of the bunch, and is made by
Delgado, both Ling-Standard and Makhidkarun have their own versions as well,
but, as stated, neither is as popular as "Dress Me Up".

The core system consists of a rather sturdy weighted base, with a holographic
projection grid set into the top under clear plastic.  It is broad flad disc,
35 centimeters in diameter and 20 centimeters in height.  A viewscreen covers
wraps around half of the side of the base.  There are nine slots at the back,
two larger ones and six smaller ones.  The larger slots are used for data
cartridges containing the dolls (two can be displayed on the unit at a given
time), the smaller slots are for data cartridges containing the outfits.
Several small sockets, including one for power and one to save the dressed up
dolls to an Imperial Standard computer or storage device, are arranged near
the slots.  The dolls are projected from the holographic projection grid at
the top of the unit, and the clothes that can be changed are pictured on the
viewscreen wrapped around the base.  The data cartridges themselves are
extremely durable, and have a built-in sheath that retracts when the cartridge
is inserted.  The unit comes with a rechargeable battery built into the base
that can work for up to 30 hours before needing a recharge.  The unit has no
external 'on/off' switch, but inserting a cartridge into the base will turn
the unit on.

There are several popular "Dress Me Up" dolls that can be purchased for the
unit.  Different areas in the Imperium tend to have different tastes, although
the royal family are constant hot sellers throughout the Imperium.  "Dress Me
Up: Ciencia Iphegenia" is the current top-seller, and it broke all the records
set by "Dress Me Up: Laashi", which contained the doll of the late Vilani
model turned actress and singer, licensed by her estate.  The doll models are
carefully created to not offend the community standards in the areas they are
sold.  The dolls, when naked, are usually not anatomically correct.  However,
the "anatomically correct" versions are usually kept on the cartridges and can
be decoded by a special chip available in versions of the unit sold to those
cultures where anatomically incorrect dolls would be considered offensive.
These decoding chips have been pirated though, and are very hot 'black market'
items in areas throughout the Imperium.  It seems that there are enough folks
out there who enjoy undressing the dolls and placing them in lewd positions to
make the trade in the chips popular.

The unit itself retails for Cr40, and individual doll data cartridges can be
as expensive as Cr20.  The add on clothing cartridges retail for anywhere from
Cr2 to Cr15, depending on how trendy the fashions are.  The unit is not only a
childrens' toy, however, and they are very common throughout the Imperium.
Universities use them to clearly illustrate the clothing and uniforms of
bygone eras.  Development kits are sold to art schools and fashion design
houses, where the information is stored and loaded from Imperial Standard
computer media.  However, use of the "Dress Me Up" standard to release one's
own, unlicensed product is illegal, and the trademark is vigorously protected.
The pirated decoding chips are often as expensive as the base unit, and in
some oppresive religious dictatorships, can be more expensive.  There is an
active hobby industry that collects 'old', discontinued dolls, and the prices
fluctuate as they do in an collectors' market.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:22:47 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

>The explanation for the flood myth is pretty simple. They originated
>with the Assyrians and Babylonians. Who just happened to live ion a
>wide flat plain between a *pair* of rivers!
>
>Other cultures with flood myths also lived in areas that flood.

Search the web for a book called "Fingerprint of God" for an amusing and
semireasonable idea about these flood myths and also (of course) who built
the pyramids, who were the antlanteans, where was atlantis etc etc.

I read it like I read "Holy blood holy grail" as SF, and damned
entertaining SF at that.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:58:59 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 07:20 AM 13/02/98 -0600, Deadeye wrote:

>> [I wrote] A nice thing about TW2000, as far as my freinds and I were
concerned
>> (Infanry, one and all) - no b***dy aircraft.
>> 
>
>Yeah-but yer skared of 'em aren't ya:)
>
I never said I wasn't :) The Air Force was in the habit, back when the
armed forces had a budget, of putting on a display for us grunts - very
impressive. It's a pity that the Skyhawks will probably wear out shortly
(they are our only combat aircraft, BTW), because they're unlikely to be
replaced, and they're very good for their role (and ours are the most
sophisticated in the world). What is more our Army only just gor some sams,
for the first time ever (the government seems to think that if we need this
sort of thing we could go buy it, during the war).

Artillery scares me more, though. You get that rumbling like a freight
train is flying through the sky ...

 
- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:09:07 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

At 03:15 AM 13/02/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>Flat cats are a nice pet. And far fewer players wiull have read "The
>Rolling Stones" than have seen the Star Trek episodes about Tribbles.
>And flat cats are amusing in their own right. Having evolved to hide in
>terrain much like the Painted Desert on Earth, they are the most
>*ghastly* colors, shocking pinks, oranges, bright yellows are all
>*natural* colors on them. 
>
>And since they only have litters every 64 days, it'll take the players
>a while to realize just what sort of time bomb they have. But as with
>tribbles, if you don't over feed you won't have problems.
>
They also refrigerate well :)

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:23:27 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

At 07:20 AM 13/02/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> At 08:03 PM 12/02/98 -0700, Merrick wrote:
>> >
>> >PS-I know the sneak attack wasn't intentional, but did anybody know
>> >(or _care_) in 1945?
>> 
>> I very much doubt they cared, but I'm pretty sure they knew, because the
>> Japanese diploamtic cipher was broken, and they were reading the messages
>> as fast as the Japanese Embassy.
>
>Actually, no, as far as can be told from the historical record and
>archives, we knew _something_ was up, but not any details. We had an
>enormous amount of intercepted, undeciphered, deciphered, but
>untranslated, and translated material on hand. They have found hints of
>the attack in material we had, but this was only after the war as they
>deciphered and translated some of the mass of untouched material.
>
I'm probably confusing it with the Washington Treaty negotiations.


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:33:59 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: The sky is falling!!

At 10:28 AM 2/13/98 -0600, joe wrote:
>If you want $$ for it, then create your own publishing company and have a
>go. God forbid you make a single mistake with this crew watching though,
>they'll fry you for any mistep.

I was looking at this, and got cold feet.  The mis steps did not bother me;
more, the lack of a big heap of cash to tide me over for the first couple
of years.  I still like the idea, but I do need to make a living if I am
doing this full time, so for now, it is stolen moments and free production.

Remember, there was a fair amount of enthusiasm for IG in the early days,
and then they delivered spectacular screw up after spectacular screw up
early on.  This happened partially because the first few products had to be
finished before they got feedback on any of them, and some that came right
after had to be finalized as the comments on the first few came in.  The
results of that decision echoed throughout the system.  (Example - First
Survey, and the potential disastrous M0 campaign, which would not make any
purchaser of the old volumes real pleased.)

Eventually, they got their act together and produced such supplements as
M0, CSC, FF&S, NAH, PE, and other products that compare quite well with
other companies in the industry.  Unfortunately for them, the honeymoon
period was over for many customers.  This happens to all companies at some
point, and you have to have mustered customer goodwill before that happens.

Consider - I am willing to buy new Castle Falkenstein source books sight
unseen.  I was also willing to do this for IG products, until I received a
series of ones with near fatal flaws.  Of my players, one refused to buy
any more products from IG after they sent him FS.  M0 Campaign was the one
that made me drop the pre order plan, but I still buy products after
looking them over.  A third is waiting for the new T4 hardback before
trusting them again, but figures if the new rules are good, she will start
buying again.

So, were I to tell my play group that IG is dead, they would take it with
equanimity.  They all want Traveller to succeed, but they all have a great
mistrust of IG.  I also feel both ways in full measure.

If IG is doing fine, or if someone else is going to take it over, then I
wish them all the best, and I am willing to be convinced that they "get
it."  Since other companies in the industry do, it is possible.  They just
need a serious commitment to quality, and to communicate that to their
authors, playtesters, and buyers.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:40:19 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

At 07:30 PM 2/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 04:21 pm 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
>>Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is
>between an
>>Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?
>>
>>Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)
>
>	IIRC, somebody (Hans?) published an analysis about a year ago
>pegging it at approximately Cr1=$3

I did one late last year that was based on the standards of living
associated with each level of social standing that got a 3:1 ratio for the
present day US.  It also gave a fairly narrow range of incomes - memory
says roughly a factor of ten from bottom decile to top decile, but I will
have to find the original to be sure.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:36:02 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

At 07:22 AM 2/13/98, Michael Koehne wrote:
>Moin HAL,
>
>> In an article in a magazine, it was attributed to Marc Miller saying that
>> each imperial credit was worth $2 US.  This was written in 1994 or so.  
>
>	this is of course america centristic. the exchance rate of a local
>	TL:7 credit of a system with a cargo shuttle, to the imperial TL:F
>	class A starport credit is known to be 1/2 since merchant prince.
>	as the imperial credit is a vilany system, we'll will would now
>	have exchange rates of 1VilaniCr equals $1.30.

You can create a conversion, by noting what the PCGDP seems to be for such
a world, and noting the PCGDP of the US today.

Unfortunately, if you use the standard Traveller economic model, you get
some really silly numbers.  Trying to fix Traveller economically is very
difficult to do, and using the trade tables in the various books makes it
harder.

Let me back that up a bit:

According to Traveller's official trade rules, if I went to a TL 12 world
and bought the kind of goods I could get there, and then traded them on TL
8 earth, I could expect to get about 40% more for them.

Cheap, clean power is worth a hell of a lot more than 40% above TL12
retail, imo.  Consider - one 10,000MW fusion power plant replaces a big,
dangerous nuclear, coal, or gas plant, and uses so little fuel that it is a
break even proposition in an astonishingly short time.

It is not fixed easily by just making fusion plants cost more - then the
high tech culture will use fossil fuels preferentially, and we know that TL
12 is a very energy intensive society, thus fusion must be price
competitive at their level.

Replace the jet engines on an airplane with grav modules  - bang - the
biggest cost of an airplane, the fuel, just went away.  I know this is a
change introduced by T4, and I approve, but it means that any world that
cannot produce grav modules is going to get very cozy with ones that can.

Replace the workers of an auto plant with robots that can do a competent
job  - profits rise as the workers are fired.  The Luddites had a point,
but it is clear that there is benefit to someone for doing this kind of
automation.

Not all of these are good results, mind, but just try to imagine the real
cost of almost any technology, and you can see that the progression is a
bit small.

My current feeling is that a TL is worth some fairly large factor, such
that a factor of 2 takes between one and three tech levels to do.  Having a
tech level represent a factor of 2 seems to fit with my reading of average
salaries in the US over the post war period.  Given the heft of some of
those other tech levels, I think this understates these actual results.

As a fix for the benefits this gives high tech planets, I am also thinking
of coming up with a "labor factor" akin to the PE culture, which reduces
the real GDP of a world, representing the vacations, holidays, and hours
off that a high tech culture may have.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:27:05 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ine Givar (long)

>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Ine Givar (long)
>
>It's late now. I'll try to finish this tommorrow.
>
>  Andrew etc.

Have you?  Have you?  Huh? huh?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:41:24 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Belters

    What's to keep another, less scrupulous belter from taking off another's
ownership beacon?  Especially if it's the motherload?  
    So, according to Leonard's very informative posts, is it not not practical
to move the asteroid?  Chop it up w/ the laser and carry off some hunks? (the
"good" ones).  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:41:28 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

>I prefer a setting that's honest to me as the Referee and to my players:
>The Third Imperium is corrupt, it's methods are immoral; rather than the
>whole mythology of the Star Vikings securing civilazation by acting like
>visigoths.  I might have had an easier time with the RC setting if the
>source material had been upfront about what the RCES was doing, and had a
>sidebar about the PR campaign.

    History is written by the winners.  All of the quotes that make the
"mythology" (as people are want to do) are from the future (and there's always
quotes putting the very same doubts on the activities of the "Star Vikings."
And in the present, from the RCs point of view, uplifting the others and
"securing civilization" was only secondary to uplifting THEIR OWN society and
getting the relics before the natives and/or time destroyed the technology.
Enlightened self-interest at best, with motivations centered on survival.  As
the Oriflammen say... Life is tough.  Deal w/ it.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:19:52 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: GG refueling

Getting this back on target with my original statement...

  If a ship that has fueled up tanks takes a hit, it loses "X" amount of
fuel.  If it has enough fuel to take 10 such hits, then it will remain in
combat for at least 10 combat rounds.  However, a unit that is depleted
from Directly jumping in, is going to be a combat kill after only one such
hit, maybe two!  Definitely a bad thing in my book...
  IRCC, this situation is true for CT, HG, MT.  I don't recall enough to
say this of TNE nor have I even bothered to learn the T4 version of ship
combat (once I saw ablative armor, I said no way - forget it).

  In any case, when looking to change a rule in a game system (GURPS
specifically), I have learned to look around to see what other thing the
change affects.  Likewise, I suggest that before anyone make a blanket
statement against GG refueling as being unwise, that they look at the full
picture.  Likewise, it is possible that under T4's rules, GG combat really
is a bad thing.  I am coming to appreciate why some flame wars get started
here (aside from the fact that some people just never learned to be polite
<grin>) is that what applies to one set of rules, doesn't apply to other
sets...

  But, as a final comment - mass fleet combats aren't even the same when
using MT versus HG or CT combat...

    Hal

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:30:11 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Belters

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com

>    What's to keep another, less scrupulous belter from taking off 
another's
>ownership beacon?  Especially if it's the motherload?  
>    So, according to Leonard's very informative posts, is it not not 
practical
>to move the asteroid?  Chop it up w/ the laser and carry off some 
hunks? (the
>"good" ones).  
>
>

The idea might be to stake your claim and get it registered first.  Then 
hire (or work out a deal with) a local asteroid processing ship, or mine 
it and process it yourself, or have a mining corporation appraise it and 
purchase it from you.  Lots of options are available for the imaginative 
GM.

I would imagine that the competition for an ore rich asteroid would be 
very fierce.   Belters vs belters vs local mining companies vs large 
corporations.  Sounds like fun to me! :^)

PZ


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #161
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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 162



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: Dhe odds (cool, I like it!)
Re: Sandcasters
Is the M0 Imperium a just polity?
Re: Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill
Re: Traveller Items Wanted!
Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
Job description?<g>
Re: Stellar Maps
Tribute...
RE: Null development in key areas
Re: to all starshipwrights
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: System Defense Boats
Re: Shuttle Ride
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Belly Up Yada Yada Yada
Re: Belters
Sandcasters (fwd)
Re: Water Canopy
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: US Marines
RE: Systems and Mileaus...
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Couple Things

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:38:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> I'm probably confusing it with the Washington Treaty negotiations.

Possibly...that was also a great setback for the US in it's codebreaking
efforts, since that's when the Secretary of State, saying 'Gentlemen do
not read each other's mail' dissolved the group that had successfully
broken the Japanese diplomatic code.

He also told the Japanese.

This had the dual effect of eliminating our ability to break military and
diplomatic ciphers in a very perilous time, and jolted the Japanese into
constructing the Purple cipher machines, which were _much_ harder to
break. 

The Naval Purple machines were not broken until after the war
started, and it was in intercepted transmission of _those_ ciphertexts
that contained the information regarding the attack on pearl. so we _had_
the information, but couldn't read it yet. We did have the Japanese
diplomatic ciphers, and through those the US intelligence community (such
as there was of one) knew something was brewing, but they thought it was
going to be an attack on the Phillipines.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:05:15 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Dhe odds (cool, I like it!)

>Now, this betting scheme is pretty simple.  Gamblers, however, are known
>for thier
>creative betting.
>
>How about letting them pick two numbers?  Any pair nets 9 for each 2 bet.
>Gamblers
>might think this a safe bet (net win, higher chance to win any given roll,
>smaller
>each win)

Gamblers always prefer high returns on low propabilities. This has been
more or less proven in horseracing: The low oddser have higher odds than
their frequency of winning thus netting the player money while for the high
oddser the opposite is true, therefore one should play on horses with low
odds to maximize returns but where's the fun in that?



/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:05:16 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

>One caveat: I understand the grav-focus lasers involve a grav field
>traveling with the em beam to keep it coherent, so if the first shot is a
>miss, you might be able to detect it with a densitometer. Or would you? If
>you could detect it, that would mean the field is losing energy because it
>is radiating, and wouldn't that be bad for the focusing effect? Is the grav
>focus beam "coherent"?
>
>One more question: If the 3I has grav focus beams, why not repulsors?

Each gameturn represents 30 minutes (or some such large number) and each
hit roll involves hudreds of shots. If a shot misses you do not need a
densitometer to detect it, just a optical sensor as the beam lobe may decay
(angularly) very fast but it's also VERY bright. IMTU I require the
sandcasting ship to track the shooter to use their sandcaster though.

The gravfocus handwave uses a gravsoliton wave travelling with the pulse
and focussing all the time, otherwise the field strengths for the focussing
would be strong enough to be a weapon in itself. A soliton meeting a beam
wouldn't affect it at all.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:39:29 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Is the M0 Imperium a just polity?

At 09:42 PM 2/13/98 +1300, you wrote:
>At 08:59 PM 12/02/98 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>>I prefer a setting that's honest to me as the Referee and to my players:
>>The Third Imperium is corrupt, it's methods are immoral; rather than the
>>whole mythology of the Star Vikings securing civilazation by acting like
>>visigoths.  I might have had an easier time with the RC setting if the
>>source material had been upfront about what the RCES was doing, and had a
>>sidebar about the PR campaign.
>
>I see what you mean, but I found it fairly clear. I think a lot of them
>were overly idealistic with all the risks that go with it. The first thing
>I thought when it was clear what was going on was "I'd hate to be one of
>them, if it turn out that they are wrong." Also I don't think I could sell
>the explict profiteering of M:0 to my players, whereas the ideals of the
>Coalition would be easier. 

Actually, I found it pretty easy.  In one of the episodes we are playing
currently, the players are all nobles at court in Y20.  One of the other
scenarios had a different group of characters playing colonists in Y0.  The
nobles are war hero Knights working for Mr. Shoes of the BIA.  Mr. Shoes is
a Count, and has a whole lot of power.  He does not like anyone working
against the interests of the Imperium, as he understands them, and he
believes the universe would be abetter place with one unified Imperium.  He
is aware of some of the flaws of the current Imperium, but is convinced
that it is only the relics from the SF that are causing the problems.

He thinks the entire policy of bypassing high tech worlds is suicidal in
the long run, and uses his agents to "encourage" assimilation of high tech
worlds, and good treatment of low tech worlds.  He also is not above
engineering a war or two, if it will insure that the world stays allied to
the Imperium, but not homogenized.  He also thinks that a low tech planet
today should be a high tech planet within the century, and is strongly in
favor of technology grants.  The Emperor trusts him implicitly, as much as
he trusts anyone below the rank of Grand Duke, and is willing to overlook
his foibles.

Unbeknownst to the Count, the Emperor also has others working towards
different goals, with similar power.  IMTU, Cleon figured out early on that
he did not know how to quite run a large Empire so that it did not decay.
Every previous large body had, and he had no special feeling that his new
Imperium would be free of rot, thus he set a number of promising styles in
motion and at cross purposes, in hopes that the best one would win.  He
works very diligently to insure that the conflict does not cause them to
actually fail in their goals, but does keep them pushing.  As soon as Cleon
has a good plan for how to set the course of the future, he intends to make
it happen, and to make those who were either on the winning side or good
enough to adapt major players.

A number of factions that are out for the money oppose the Count, and they
seem to have the upper hand at the moment.  Without the Emperor's backing,
mercy would be unknown in M0.  With the Emperor's backing, the crusaders
are staying even, and civil rights for member planets are getting more
common.  Unfortunately, revenue in the short term is a hard argument to
answer, unless you read a lot of history.

I have not yet decided whether the abdication of Cleon the Weak for Lintuli
was actually planned, or not.  I have been toying with the idea that this
was actually "according to plan."  I have also been trying to figure out
who knows the plan, or if Cleon is just winging it.  (One idea I had was
Cleon using anagathics, and essentially coming back as a descendent.)

Currently, the Knights are trying to convince a planet to join, and have
just been presented with a copy of the Zhunatsu School of Contact policies
by the planet's chief politico.  They are all a bit vexed - the most
idealistic is horrified, and the most violent is ready to kill.  They have
theorized that this package of war crimes in the making is really a plant,
or a lie, or an old policy that got squelched when it hit the high levels.

The flurry when they get back to Sylea and report promises to be most
exciting.  They will then get the interesting task of deciding how they
want to influence the Baron in the group.  He does not want to fiddle with
Moot politics, but that may be the only way to help the Count's views on
right actions prevail.  It will also be very dangerous, and full of intrigue.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:02:59 +0000
From: Dominic Reynolds <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on the T4.1 JOT Skill

I remember a Character a while  back who only had one skill, and that
was JOT - 5 .  So as this stands he would be able to do most things.
And that was my original point.  I now remember the temporary nature
that JOT skill used to be, ie the Engineer could not fix the jump
drives using the proper skills - so with JOT and a bit of plastic
carton and a lump of chewed gum - da da he has temporarily fixed it.


Say a character is required to function as an Engineer on a starship,
and they know nothing.

a)  They have JOT 3
    
    Suggest that they may learn faster than b or c.
    Suggest that they can make a roll to get a basic understanding
    in the task - a temporary level 0 or so. Roll under int + JOT skill
    with two dice to gain level 0
    Suggest that they take longer in the task or have more severe 
    failure penalties - as Semo made this point.



b)  They have Electronics 1

     Suggest that they may learn faster than c
     Suggest that they can make a roll to get a basic understanding
     in the task - a temporary level 0 at 1/2 dice extra.  Roll under
     int and Electronics with two and a half dice to gain level 0.
     Suggest that they take much longer in the task and have much more
     severe failure penalties.

c)  They have no relevant skills.

     Suggest that they might be lucky.
     Suggest that they have to roll under the relevant stat at all times
     with an additional penalty.

I am not intending to rewrite rules - just suggestions :-)

     



>
>	Jack of All Trades	varies
>	The individual has a general education and wide experience which allows him
>or her to attempt many different tasks with some expectation of success.
>	Attempting Tasks. A character may attempt any task for which he or she has no
>other skill. The character may not use Jack-of-all-Trades in place of a skill
>which is already held.
>	Limits on Jack-of-All-Trades. A character may not use a level of Jack-Of-All-
>Trades which is higher than the associated personal characteristic. For
>example, if a task calls for Mechanics and Strength, the level of Jack-of-All-
>Trades used cannot exceed then characters Strength.
>	Jack-of-all-Trades may not be learned by experience; it must be acquired
>through the prior career process.
>
>
>Marc
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:03:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Items Wanted!

Dear Sir;

There is a hobby store here, (Las Vegas) that used to be a distributor. They
have Megagtraveller stuff still in shrinkwrap including First Census (and
probably the Challenge mags too). Should I pick you up a copy? BTW what
classic Traveller stuff do you have for trade (GDW and DGP)?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 23:44:12 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

On 02/12/98 at 04:21 PM,  Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net> said:

>So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in Traveller,
>can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an Imperial Credit
>and a U.S. Dollar?

>Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)

If you're thinking about making a trip, how's about I join you? ;->


How about 1 to 1?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:27:42 -0600
From: "John D. Muncy" <jmuncy@siscom.net>
Subject: Job description?<g>

Douglas wrote:
>Can you name another job that lets you fire
>machine-guns, travel around the world, and get laid a lot?

In any particular order?...oh, and don't forget high explosives.
A suitable application of C-4 plastique can make a wonderful
problem solver and it's fun to!<G>

John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 20:24 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Stellar Maps

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> So I figure that at least *some* can do so in 5d. :-)

	the problem is that the simplest GUT (grant universal theory)
	requires at least 6 dimension to explain graphitiy and quantum
	mechanics. the basic string theory requires 3 space axis and
	3 time axis with an event horizon in between, superstring
	theories have even more folded 3d's. 

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:50:12 -0600
From: "John D. Muncy" <jmuncy@siscom.net>
Subject: Tribute...

Harold Wrote:
>BTW, if for some reason my players were to bring in fudge covered Oreos
>for my consumption (I prefer the regular as opposed to the white chocolate
>variety), suitable rewards would be arranged, Nick and John.   :-)

WHAT?!...you burn our villages, take our women, and now you want tribute?!...
You ruthless *&%^$#...may your groin be infested with the fleas from a 
thousand camels!

John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: RE: Null development in key areas

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980212135132.007e38a0@pop.clear.net.nz>

Rupert,

> ObTrav: Do the Imp Marines own their Ortillery, or do they get it when the
> Navy not busy chasing off the last fleeing scout ship?

I'd say Marines have their own air support (attack speeders etc) and 
artillery (including battlefield meson guns and tac nukes), but the big guns 
are on the Navy ships in orbit.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:35:47 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: to all starshipwrights

any of you want your designs illustrated? 

if so let me know.  

send me an e-mail with DO NOT DELETE ME! some where in the subject header (i
get over 200 to 400 email hits a day and i dont have teh time to read all of
them... they get judged on teh headers if i want to devote my time to htem-
case in point, i have totally ignored many of the flamable emails on teh
CE/BCE debates).

currently, i have started to work up three sided pictures of my own warship
designs (w/o any stats unfortunately since i dont have the FF&S rulebook).  i
have some more time between my classes to work up some starship designs....

richard

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:39:10 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

> Flat cats are a nice pet. And far fewer players wiull have read "The
> Rolling Stones" than have seen the Star Trek episodes about Tribbles.
> And flat cats are amusing in their own right. Having evolved to hide in
> terrain much like the Painted Desert on Earth, they are the most
> *ghastly* colors, shocking pinks, oranges, bright yellows are all
> *natural* colors on them. 


It's been too long since I read Heinlein's "Rolling Stones" so I don't
remember the 'flat cats'.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:05:27 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

> We may yet come to regret the precedents set in Nuremburg. But I do
> feel that the idea that following orders may have consequences down > 
the road *is* a good one.
>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

When did we as a civilization (read that world) even begin to consider  
that there were "rules to war"?  I don't believe the Romans had any 
compunction about destroying peoples and lands.  Look what they did to 
Carthage.

ObTrav:  What are the rules for the Imperium, or at least how total is 
their warfare?  I can't imagine them crushing planets 'cause they would 
want to incorporate the peoples at some point and gain the technology.  
So how do they fight?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 20:32 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

Moin Merrick Burkhardt,

> You have a system to defend. All that really matters is the
> mainworld(s). If you ignore defending your GG, then your mainworld
> is protected by your entire fleet. Otherwise, you have a weaker
> mainworld, but a defended GG.

	Thats true for a world you want to attack. But I dont want to
	attack this backwater low pop world in the wilds, as Lord
	Lucan commanded me to nuke the HighPop-TL:16 world deep in
	Gushemege. So I'll perfer to tank at GG's, as most forces will
	defend the main planet and most GGs in the wilds are not
	defended.

	System defense of the GG is not for the system with the GG but
	for the systems 1-4 parsecs deeper in friendly space.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Ride

In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19980211165520.20a762c8@pop.uky.edu>

Harold,

> >A long standing dream of mine has been to ride the shuttle, or more 
> >accurately, to eventually get into space...  Anyone share that dream?
>  
>    Given that I get queasy while being on a commerical airliner in descent
> (but not for some reason during takeoff and ascent) I would probably puke my
> guts out the entire time I was in orbit on the shuttle (or any other
> spacecraft) and be forced to live on I-Vs.
>  
>    I would also be the happiest man in the Universe.

:-)
Yeah, that just about describes me too. It would probably kill me, but at 
least I'd die happy.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In-Reply-To: <34E2EA5D.167EB0E7@uni-trier.de>

V.A.G,

> (story about nuking the pass snipped)
> > The point of this (I guess) is that what's "friendly" to some might not be
> > to some of our "friends".  Not sure how relevent this is but it was a neat
> > story.
>  
> That s what i figured all along. Had war broken out, the US would have
> defended us, and when they would have been done with that, we re no
> better off than had the russians taken us over! Using nukes to defend
> territory is the most insane practice I ever heard of!

ISTR French land-based nuclear missiles have (had?) a fairly short range - 
just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:15:15 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: Belly Up Yada Yada Yada

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu> wrote...

>P.S.  Given that anyone can pretend to be anybody on a mailing list (I can
>give you specific instructions on how to do this with Netscape if you would
>like), I would chalk this up to wild ass rumor, nothing more.


I'll be honest, when I first read the post, it didn't sound like you at
all, Harold. (I imagine you'd have gone on and on and on about the topic
(grin))

John K.


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:27:51 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Belters

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>     What's to keep another, less scrupulous belter from taking off another's
> ownership beacon?  Especially if it's the motherload?
>     So, according to Leonard's very informative posts, is it not not practical
> to move the asteroid?  Chop it up w/ the laser and carry off some hunks? (the
> "good" ones).

 Well, we have all these system defense boats that are dedicated to ensuring
piracy does not happen...   8-D

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 21:07 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Sandcasters (fwd)

Moin Joseph R. Dietrich,

> 1) Can you detect incoming fire from lasers (or other energy weapons, for
> that matter) without being hit? If so, how?

	the chances for random hit, if you only have EMS/PMS resolution,
	are worth then winning in german lotto. for this reason each
	weapon has a fast tracker (the beam pointer) as a specialised
	sensor for the final fire control lock. as this is an active
	sensor, its posible to detect it. Any sandcaster also has a
	ladar/beam pointer detector.

> 2) How does a sandcaster work?

	you are popping a sand caninister, the canisters "explodes" thowing
	a small cloud of sand. the sand is magnetic, and the sandcaster is
	able to move it to protect different portions of the ship. When the
	ships accellerate the sandcaster is able hold the sand in position.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:41:11 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

At 08:22 PM 13/02/98 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>The explanation for the flood myth is pretty simple. They originated
>>with the Assyrians and Babylonians. Who just happened to live ion a
>>wide flat plain between a *pair* of rivers!
>>
>>Other cultures with flood myths also lived in areas that flood.
>
>Search the web for a book called "Fingerprint of God" for an amusing and
>semireasonable idea about these flood myths and also (of course) who built
>the pyramids, who were the antlanteans, where was atlantis etc etc.
>
>I read it like I read "Holy blood holy grail" as SF, and damned
>entertaining SF at that.
>
My parents have a couple of Von daniken's (sp?) books that someone gave
them - they store in their Sci-fi bookshelf.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:20:32 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

At 10:42 AM 13/02/98 -0600, Bolie Williams IV wrote:
>
>The two nuclear bombs droped on Hiroshim and Nagasaki did not kill as many
>people as many of the firebombing raids against Tokyo.  They just happened
>to be particularly dramatic.  The Japanese were going to fight to the
>death... even after the first bomb dropped, they weren't going to surrender.
>
IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the country
was paralysed by the refugees, and they couldn't sort out what terms (if
any) they would try for and get in touch with the US before the second bomb
was dropped. IMO three days was too little time. How long would the US have
taken to make up its mind in similar circumstances?


- -- Rupert Boleyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:41:26 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: US Marines

Doug Berry wrote:

>1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
>in history?

That's cause the Marines were all busy in the Pacific, hitting places like
Okinawa and Iwo Jima...  Overlord was a classic Marine amphibious
assault...gleened from techniques validated the hard way against the Japanese.
It was just done w/ larger #s.  Marines wouldn't have needed nearly that
many...  : P

>2>  What do Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Charles Whitman have in
>common?

Not many soldiers who can shoot as well as Marines.  They may have been
complete fruit cakes but those guys could shoot. 

>3>  Which is the only service to have an active-duty member convicted of
>espionage in the last 25 years?

Which service is notorious for breaking under fire in Korea?  For fleeing and
mostly getting captured? Who's top enlisted is currently on the frying pan?

>Can't resist Uncle Sam's Misguided Children...

Ain't Ready for Marines Yet.  ; )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:37:43 -0600
From: "John D. Muncy" <jmuncy@siscom.net>
Subject: RE: Systems and Mileaus...

>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
>c) Currently playing?

a) TNE w/a sprinkling of some "house" rules.
    I feel that the rules are realistic enough to get the "point" 
    across to the players w/minimal interference.
    Not to mention, that the BL space combat system is
    great for cat-n-mouse games of starship combat.
b) Preferably the CT, Spinward Marches area, 1110 year. However I have 
    developed a liking for the Regency and the CoE settings.
    (Okay, Harold I've put in a "plug" for the CoE setting...
    where's my twenty bucks?...I WANT my twenty bucks!)
c) We are currently playing in the CoE setting, trying to 
    uncover and unmask a well organized group of
    fanatical assassins who are trained in the use of the
    "Gauss sniper rifle from hell"<g>. High intrigue and deceit.
    Obviously we are using the TNE rules.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:18:13 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
(OBTW:  Any relation to Anne?)


>The Germans were the first to
>develop and use combined arms & air power usefully, and thrashed the
>British and French in France, even though the allies were more numerous and
>better equiped.

And let us not forget the reintegration of cavalry (tanks) and infantry.  Or
the inclusion of artillery pieces with infantry units.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:44:22 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Couple Things

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Gentlebeings: Steve is a Traveller fan. Long term. Dyed in the wool. He makes
> some of you look like pikers by comparison.

Gee, it sounds like we are amongst friends.

> An Example: He saw some of the teaser TNS releases I am having put onto the
> GURPS: Traveller Web page (you'll see them soon enough), and he came into my
> office to tell me that they made his hair stand on end in excitement. And he
> was not kidding -- he had goosebumps. His eyes glowed. He wanted to talk
> possibilities - and he left five minutes later still excited. Unless I screw
> up big time, Traveller is going to be a GURPS product line for a long time.
> Make of it what you will.

 Loren if the web page are any indicators, way Cool man.

Ps. What is the name of the font?


- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #162
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 163



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Todd Mobile Kitchen (TL6)
The Evil Empire
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)
Relieved of Duty!
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Water Canopy
re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN! 
Military roleplaying (my apologies to the 'list, this is long)
Re: US Marines
War Crimes
Andrew Vallence please email

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:37:02 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Todd Mobile Kitchen (TL6)

Todd Mobile Kitchen (TL6)
Designed by Robert Prior

This vehicle was designed using the rules in the Central Supply Catalog,
with the following variations: realistic unloaded speed, realistic stress.

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  9.89 tonnes;  kCr 52.3
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  
Structure: 1.07 tonnes of soft steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.03 cm thick,
1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     610 kW TL4 internal combustion engine; Fuel: 305 L of hydrocarbons
(305 kg), 5 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 600 kW wheels; 
Maximum Speed: 54 km/h loaded, 109 km/h unloaded; 
Range: 272 km loaded, 545 km unloaded; Agility: +3DM (0.1G); 
     
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  2 roomy passenger seats
     Hatches: 4 manual
Communications:
     Regional Radio (10 W, TL6, SmVcl);  Range: 30 km

Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     Options: recreation space, kitchen for 20 simultaneous meals
     Safety Features: anti-theft system, fire suppression system
     9.90 kL of cargo space (4.95 tonnes)

Larger cities tend to have many occasional gatherings, at which people
naturally want food. When circumstances do not warrant building a
permanent facility, mobile kitchens like the Todd find a niche. 

Although it is too slow to travel outside a built-up area, the Todd is
ideal for urban events.  Almost ten cubic metres of pantry space can
supply the kitchen for most of a day while the two-cook kitchen can
prepare 20 meals at a time.


(Designed with Infini-V: Traveller's Vehicle Design Studio. Copyright
Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 00:04:58 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: The Evil Empire

On 02/13/98 at 11:27 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>I don't recall whether or not the Melieu 0 fans were those who found TNE
>morally dubious, but I hope not because for all the looting and
>decapitation raids the Coalition did, at least they honestly thought it
>was for the good of the wilds populations, 

Yeah, that's what they *want* you to believe. The looting and murders were
looting and murder, and it was for the good of the people back in the RC,
and that's the way I saw it. That viewpoint was peeking out of the corners
of the TNE books and needs to be presented as an alternative opinion, if
for no other reason than to stimulate debate.

>...whereas in Cleon's New Galaxy Order something is good if it profits the >Imperium. 

If it profited Cleon and his family, you mean. But Cleon WAS the
Imperium...just ask him ;->...so what was good for Cleon was good for the
Imperium was good for the galaxy.

>Sure they talk about long term good and leaving worlds to rule themselves, but >that only applies when they have joined the 3I (often because it's destroyed >their economies stability) and it would cost money to run them directly.

The RCEC were grubby little looters clawing to the top over the bodies of
all those Wilders they stole from and killed. Better to deal with honest
Reavers who admit what they are. The Third Imperium, in the final analysis,
wasn't any better...read the dirty details in Milieu 0.

Eris,
    an equal opportunity heretic ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:48:37 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

> >Great! So you wouldn't mind it when your local school allowed the following
> >religions to demostrate their beliefs to your children:  Santeria, Voodun,
> >Santanism, Dionysian Fertillity Rites, Paganism, Druidism, and a group of
> >Discordians praising Eris.


I don't usually have a problem with other religions, hey whatever turns
your crank.  But as for my kids, no way.  Last poster has a point, I
would NOT welcome any of the above in my home for my kids.

For the record, I disagree with a great amount of 'christian' doctrine
as well and see it as potentially harmful.  Let's not forget the
crusades and what started them.  Or the Catholic Church's old "Buy a
Salvation Certificate" that led to Martin Luther leaving the church.

Sigh.  Religion is some very screwed up stuff no matter how you look at
it.  H. Beam Piper wrote an incredibly CLEAR and enjoyable story about
this called "First Cycle" which I heartily recommend.  Two planet
system, one race on each world.  One pragmatic, open and logical; the
other devious, paranoid and religious.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:30:48 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
> > I've always considered this to be a difficult-to-accept assertion.
> >
> > Exactly what weapons does it have (the 33000 ton destroyer which
> > is about 155m long) have that can "devastate" anything.  Nuc missiles
> > yes (vs. planetary point defenses no).  750 MJ lasers?  No significant
> > effect.
> 
> 33ktons is more like a CL than a DD IMHO (based on CT Sup.9).
> 
> That said, it could use any old missiles. A 6g6 missile will hit the
> planet at at least 100km/s. I don't wanna start the rock-throwing
> thread, but if we assume that a ship so armed has decided to lay
> waste (for whatever reasons) it can do it with pure KE. If they
> drive (remootely piloted, of course) some ships's boats into the
> world at higher velocities... yikes.
> 
> -Merrick


Ooops.  My apologies, I accidentally typed TWO 3's instead of ONE..

That should have read "3000 Ton" destroyer.

I buy the argument about non-terrestrials, but I think they would
be wayy too well defended for a destroyer to even get close.  Even
the heavies would get waxed.  I doubt that anyone out there can
proved to me that starships can win vs. defended planets.  Why?

Well, for most TLs, simple thermodynamics. Planets have really good
heat sinks, ships do NOT.  This implies more energy resources for most
average tech level (ie. 12) worlds.  Combines with better sensors and
greater personnel resources, ships die hard.

Any bites?

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:15:52 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

At 05:37 PM 13/02/98 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>What type of stuff is going on in everyone elses' heads?
>>
>>Semo
>
>This is not a futuristic entertainment facility but rather a popular game
>of chance especially popular among the Vargr (who originated it):
>
>Dhe (six in Gvegh I think)
>===
>The gameboard consist of six squares where you can place your bets and a
>croupier that handles the dice and bets.
>The croupier rolls 2D6 inside an inverted cup so that nobody can see the
result.
>Each player bet on a number from 1 to 6.
>
>a) If none of the dice shows your number you neither won nor lost. Your bet
>remains on the table (some variants allow the withdrawal here or change of
>number but generally this is not allowed).
>
>b) If only one of the dice shows your number you lose.
>
>c) If both dice show your number you win, collecting 9 times your bet.
>
>The gamblers reasoning goes like this:
>======================================
>If none of the dice show my number I neither win nor lose so that's OK.
>If one of the dice show my number there is a 1 in 6 chance the other one
>will as well so if I get more than six times my money I'll gain on the
>average.
>
>Most Dhe tables generate quite a lot of cash so obviously the reasoning
>above is flawed.
>As any Traveller game will have 2D6 floating around (except perhaps the
>heretical TNE bunch ;) so this game can easily be simulated during
>sessions.

Being as all we TNEers do is combat and damage is dealt in D6s, I think
even we could manage to find 2D6 :)

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:41:31 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

>>I don't want to start a flame war, but I have a sincere question:
>>
>>Is it fair to say that the Marines would be the combat force meant to
>>"take possesion" of territory held by enemy forces and the Army is meant
>>to "keep" or hold a territory once taken?

Pretty fair. : )

>The role of the USMC is to put a foot in the door.  By getting to a trouble
>spot quickly, the Marines provide a notable US presence on the ground.
>Also, the Marines have their own air support (AV-8B jump jets and AH-1S Sea
>Cobras) that interact closely with the troops on the ground.

Hell... Marines take the damn door... Don't forget F/A-18s and assorted other
craft. : )

>What the Marines lack is the capability for sustained warfare.  The Army,
>with massed divisions of M1A2s and field artillery, can locate, fix, and
>destroy the enemy; then "plant the flag in his ass."

   There Army still uses more A1s than A2s and for a reason. The A2s aren't a
whole lot of an improvement.  IMO, the only aspects of the A2 that are wanted
are the CITV (Commanders Independant Thermal Viewer) and the GPS.  The rest is
a bunch of electronic junk.  Has a bad habit for failing and leaving them SOL.
We can fight an A1 say w/o power.  It's not easy, but it's all a matter of
being a good tanker.   The A2 u don't have that option (needless to say w/ the
CITV u can't fire the Tank Commanders .50 cal buttoned up.  Tisk tisk... i'd
rather not have it...)

>>The mission of the Army seems obscure to me now.  Maybe we should have
>>the Navy, Marines, and Air Force absorb the role of the Army in this day
>>and age.

>Heretic!   The main mission of the United States Army is to defend the US.

So we can get rid of the Army and go all Guard units? : )  

>The Army isn't in the force-projection business.  That's the Navy/USMC's
>job.  The Army is best utilized when deployed to a forward area, given time
>to collect itself, and supported by the Air Force.

all too true.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 23:17:42 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Relieved of Duty!

On 02/12/98 at 08:27 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>Considering a Naval warship - even a Destroyer - has enough firepower  to
>devastate an entire planet, it's vitally important that the CO is  sane
>and following orders. OTOH it's also important to maintain  discipline and
>respect the chain of command.

>The Captain can be relieved under the following conditions:

>1.  He is medically incapable (either physically or mentally) of  command,
>as certified by the Chief Medical Officerand agreed by at  least 2/3 of
>the Command Staff.

>2. He issues illegal orders. This must be agreed by the Executive  Officer
>and at least 2/3 of the Command Staff.

>Note that an unsuccessful challenge to the Captain's authority is  mutiny,
>the normal punishment for which is death.

I'd alter the conditions where a Captain may be relived of command to be:

1.  He is medically incapable (either physically or mentally) of command,
as certified by the Chief Medical Officer.  The First (or ranking) Officer,
takes command.  The decision is evaluated by a medical review board at the
earliest opportunity and if overturned the Captain is reinstated and CMO is
indicted for mutiny.

2. There is no 2.

Personnel are not authorized to obey illegal orders.  Any Officer or
crewman who performs illegal acts will be relieved of command (or duty) by
the ranking Officer present and held to be tried for their crimes.
Personnel may refuse to perform orders they judge to be illegal, however
their refusal may lead to immediate arrest, detention and subsequent court
martial on grounds of treason, mutiny, or insorbordination.

An Officer or crewman carrying out legal orders during battle or emergency
may take extreme measures to insure the completion of their duties.  Action
reports must detail and justify all measures undertaken by said Officers
and crewmen.  These reports will be evaluated for possible violations of
regulations or laws by commanding officers.

IAC (in any case), that's how I'd do it. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:02:46 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> > Actually, for those types of rocks, I was envisioning either a metal rod
> > run through the rock, or a 'jacket' that the rocks would be placed into.
> >  Either would be recoverable and reusable.
> >
>
> On that we disagree, although there's probably room for both solutions in the
> universe. The danger, as I see it, with a metal rod run through the rock is
> that you risk splitting the rock or drilling into something that just won't
> give. This method is expensive and time consuming.  The jacket idea is also
> expensive because that's a lot of material to use.

That depends on how we reduce the asteroid.  Personally, I think that the coarse
work will be done in space with tugs, men and explosives.  Maybe portable laser or
impact drills to create the holes to pack the explosives in.  I envision fairly
large pieces being the goal, without gravity it would be difficult if not
impossible to manage small pieces and/or dust.

The large chunks would be tugged to the processing ship, and run through a shaping
process (using lasers or exotic-metal bandsaws) akin to what a sawmill initially
does to a tree.  For rocks without the necessary magnetic signature condusive for
a mass driver, a laser 'cores' it, and then a metal rod is inserted.  Chips and
other debris from the processing stages are dumped into metal cans for transport.

>
>
> Since densitometers are commonplace, it is a trivial exercise to determine the
> center of mass of a rock and to have your tug grapple it in such a way that the
> vector of thrust goes through that center.



- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 23:39:53 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

On 02/12/98 at 03:57 PM,  "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> said:

>I haven't heard of a water canopy before, and I'm not sure what is meant
>by it - an orbital or high-altitude water bubble?

I hadn't either. Maybe it's like an ice ring, but because it's in the
habitable zone composed of liquid rather than ice...not that I think that's
remotely possible, but that's what it sounds like.

>The best explanation I've heard for Noah's deluge related it to memories
>of the end of the last Ice Age. The Mediterranean Sea basin was nearly
>empty, and had been for thousands of years. The shallow valley at the west
>end (Gibraltar) was enough to keep the oceans out. With the rise of the
>world ocean levels (all that water not locked up in ice any more), sea
>level breached Gibraltar and created the largest waterfall in history.
>What was it like for the people living in the foothills of Mount Crete or
>Mo

Really? I guess I have the dates wrong in my head. I thought the
Mediterranean deluge was further back.

>The Mediterranean Basin was one of the most highly populated areas of the
>world at that time. The stone age peoples affected by this catastrophe
>told the tale to their children, and the tale was handed down to become
>part of the legends of many peoples - even the peoples near the source of
>the Nile had heard of it.

I sort of thought it might have been an exaggeration of a more local event,
like a a tidalwave in the eastern Med or a huge flood along the Nile. OTOH,
it could have simply been alogorical. Or it could have been a world wide
flood (or at least a regional one).

>Obtrav: Many worlds are at TL3 or less and lack long range communications.
>How do you inform the populace of a spaceborne plague, invasion or other
>disaster in a timely fashion? Imagine a Scout/Courier buzzing friendly
>native encampments with PA system blaring....

Ezekel saw the wheel,
Way up in the middle of the air.
The big wheel turned by faith,
And the little wheel turned by the grace of God.
Way up in the middle of the air.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:10:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN! 

"Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de> wrote:

>This morning, I found this posting in rec.games.frp.misc.
>Does anyone know more?
>Harold D. Hale wrote:
>> Mike Basinger wrote:
>>>
>>> I picked up a copy of Marc Miller's Traveller (Softcover) and was
>>> wondering what other supplements for the game people like and
>>> would suggest I pick up.
>>
>>  None of the above.  A call placed to Imperium Games yesterday (Feb.
>> 11, 1998) resulted in the caller being told that Imperium Games would no
>> longer being producing sourcebooks.
>>
>> Sorry,
>>
>> Harold
>>
>> P.S.  Marc Miller may be in the process of finding "T4" a home.  Stay
>> tuned.
>- --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Harold, I hope you don't mind this cross-posting, but this seems to be urgent.
>
>Ciao,
>Stephan

Before we go into panic mode on as yet unsubstantiated rumours about IG's
demise (here we go again!) why don't we take a few seconds and *think about
it*?

What is Traveller? - Traveller is the SFRPG that Marc and co  originally
released back in 77. It is not Imperium Games.

What keeps Traveller alive? The fans, and the people who spend hours
creating material for use by the players. What is the state of this
material? IG material is freely available (even *if* the rumour is true
they're not going to pulp it). BITS/CORE have material available and is
active. Freelance Traveller, Signal GK and TraV Chronicle still exist. SJG
are still planning GURPS Traveller. Marc is working on T4.1 and there are
other works available. Think of the effort people go to to get old
Traveller material.

So before we all go into a frenzy (and Phil McGregor goes into ecstasy at
GT becoming the published system;-) ) remember that Traveller isn't going
to die even if this as yet unsubstantiated rumour is true. It has survived
4 editions and 2 main publishers so far.

Dom
(trying to avoid an IG panic fest)
In the words of Harry Enfield's Scousers "Calm Down. Carrrrrrllllllm Down"

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:23:00 -0600
From: "John D. Muncy" <jmuncy@siscom.net>
Subject: Military roleplaying (my apologies to the 'list, this is long)

In Harold's CoE setting we've had some great success roleplaying as Terran
Marines.
The campaign that we worked in, was set on lagash, as a Terran Marine
platoon.
I played the "ignorant newly knighted butterball" and another fellow played
the 
platoon sargeant. The terrain that we operated in was like the woodlands of
the
pacific northwest. Though the objective was simple (pacify the local
guerrilla
forces) the task was difficult [TWITCH TWITCH]). Also, even though it was
the military, the "platoon sgt." and I worked closely-very much on equal
footing.

The roleplaying was very good (IMO) because we had to deal with some unique
personalities of NPCs. So, interaction was interesting. Plus, there were
several 
instances of adventures beyond the usual "go out there and secure the hill,
then
report-in." Though the fighting was intense, and we had to re-invent
tactics and methodologies
to fit the situation (that was deffinitely "challenging"), it was a war of
counter-insurgency.
This left a lot of room for "creative" techniques to outwit the enemy!

If you have never been in the military, then do a little research to gather
some ideas.
In example: talk to some actual veterans/prior service; read a few books of
various 
exploits; and finally, talk to some other gamers/GMs about their military 
campaigns.

Overall, I'd say that lagash was some of my most enjoyable gaming, with
lots of 
great adventuring! [TWITCH TWITCH]

Worst adventuring in this campaign: those pesky snipers! (though I was
careful
not to raise the "wrong" arm, Douglas<g>)

Best adventuring escapade: after much frustrating "hide-n-seek" games with
the baddies, we finally caught them in the act; oh what a joy it was to
call in
the arty and attack speeder strike!

Most exciting scenario (for pure "shoot'em up"): we had to clear an enemy
headquarters of the baddies. This was some good MOUT adventuring
(MOUT= Miltary Operations in Urban Terrain; ie, "house-to-house fighting").
MOUT is exciting, but a real b**ch to control and execute. Instead of 
being concerned about security on a two dimensional level, now you have to 
worry about a three dimensional arena, plus it eats up beacoup ordnance, 
materials, troops and communication. And you still have to deal with those
"pesky" snipers!<g>

Interesting point, though. We rarily used miniatures. Thus preventing the
game from becoming a "wargame" in miniature (nothing against miniature
wargaming, it's just that we we're there to role play). We only used some
miniatures for the upclose-and-personal stuff-and that was fairly limited.
The best aid, was a note book (you still have to take some notes for the
"warning orders and operations orders") and a map. with terrain markings
as appropriate. One of the best aids, was an erasable/re-markable
marking board w/multiple color markers. This was a geat visual aid tool!

Well, that's my .25 cents worth (inflation). I hope that it is useful.

Best regards,
John   

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:13:05 -0800
From: David Kenney <dkenney@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: US Marines

At 09:23 PM 2/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>At 02:53 PM 2/11/98 EST, you wrote:
>
>>Battle of Beleaux Wood.  Hue City.  Chosin Resovoir (6 to 1 in Divisions
>when the Army and UN forces decided to head for the hills....) as a
>sampler. : )

Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Khe Sahn. To add a few more.

>
>Funny.  I was in the 3/7th INF (M), and we have a battle streamer for
>Chosin.  Seems we took the point during the withdrawl, since we still had a
>couple of trucks to transport the dead and wounded.
>
>By the way, running for the hills, or seizing the high ground, is a sound
>military tactic.  :P

But running for the hills while others are expecting you to protect their
flank is not.

>
>>Me 2. : )  We toot our own horn alot.  We're always taught pride and honor
>>and our stature compared to the other Armed Forces.  That's the cause. We
>>get our humility as boots and quickly try to forget.
>
>How to deflate Marines in three easy steps:
>
>1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
>in history?

How about the most dangerous amphibious assault in history?  The landing at
Inchon, Korea.  See above additions for more.

>
>2>  What do Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Charles Whitman have in
>common?

Not the most glorious of moments but the fact that their Marine service is
what is remembered about them.

What about Tim McVeigh?

>
>3>  Which is the only service to have an active-duty member convicted of
>espionage in the last 25 years?
>

There was a family of Navy personnel (father (retired), bother(?) (?), and
son (active duty)) that were convicted of espionage around the same time.
Turned over an entire cryptographic machine piece by piece along with the
encryption/decryption codes.

>
>Answers: 1> 0
>         2> They were all Marines, and all killers
>         3> The USMC, Sgt Clayton Lonetree.
>

Lonetree's conviction was overturned, IIRC, about 2-3 years ago when Ames,
the CIA mole, stated the Lonetree was setup to take the heat of Ames.

>Can't resist Uncle Sam's Misguided Children...

U Suckers Miss Christmas

>--
>
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
>| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
>|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
>|------------------------------------------|
>| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
>| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
>| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
>| for the money."               -- Moliere |
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

David Kenney  (SSGT/USMC)
To our Marines fell the most difficult and dangerous portion of the defense
by reason of our proximity to the great city wall and the main city gate...
The Marines acquitted themselves nobly.

(Mr. Edwin N. Conger, U.S. Minister, in commending the Marines for the
defense of the legations at Peking, China, in 1900)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:46:22 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: War Crimes

Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> 
> > In anycase, the US can hardly be seperated out for
> > condemnation for using the tatics (bombing cities)
> > that their foe helped initiate and everyone in
> Although you must admid, American Cities remained relatively
> (relatively? Completely!) unbombed during the entire war. It wasnt even
> a "We must destroy them because otherwise they will destroy us", but
> rather a "They are doing things that work against our interest, get them
> away, the faster the better". I dont say the US should have just
> contained the Japanese, but Nuking two cities was a little over the top.
> Just do the math: How many lives were saved by those nukes? Substract
> the loss of life, direct and indirect, that was caused by the bombs. The
> result is negative, thus the use of the bombs was an evil thing to do.
> Yes Evil! It doesnt matter that it was against "The Enemy!!", it was
> directed against human life, against civilians. I see the use of the
> nuke as one of the great atrocities of the 2nd WW, but since the Victors
> commited it, it didnt cout, in their eyes, for they were "justified".
> The Truth is always in the eyes of the beholder, history is written by
> the winners, and this even proves these statements.
> 

This is a very direct, unsupported statement that is currently the
subject of debate in the US and overseas.  It is absolutely NOT a
foregone conclusion that the number of deaths WITH the bombs would
have been LESS than had we (the US) NOT dropped them.  The truth of the
matter was simple.  WWII in the Pacific (no less than the Atlantic)
was a war that the US did not start (at least in a military sense).
The attack on Pearl was without prior warning despite the best,
honorable
intentions of the Japanese.  Many, many Americans would have died in the
landings on the Japanese mainland and the subsequent occupation.  We
as a nation were unwilling to make that sacrifice, even if it were an
illusory one. We won.  That doesn't make it right before God, but it
does make it final.

If any nation choses to wage war on the United States or its allies,
then
it had better damn well be ready to suffer the consequences.  I said
that
I was glad that we reached a rapproachement with Japan after the war as
well
as Germany and am extremely taht those nations have prospered peacefully
since 1945.

We have a saying over here, and maybe you have heard it...it goes like 
this:

	"All is fair in love and war."

it goes along with this saying:
	
	"War is Hell"

Despite Geneva, there is really NO SUCH THING as a WAR CRIME.  There is
only
unjuust retribution on the part of the part of the winner against the 
loser.  Realizing this, our government has historically erred in
fighting
our wars overseas, and not on our home soil when possible.  We are also
concerned with ensuring that we don't lose wars.  This is the very 
reason why we deploy our forces abroad.  Fight over THERE, not HERE.  
Had we done this in the 1930's, one might argue that there would have
been no WWII.  

You may perceive those two nukes as an atrocity.  I perceive them
as a necessity.  Pray (yes I suggest you pray) that this necessity
never arises again.  Because there won't be a world left if its the
US that is attacked.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:35:50 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Andrew Vallence please email

All: Sorry to waste bandwidth, but when our shiny new Windows NT
mailserver buggered up last week it destroyed all our stored mailfiles,
which included my records of Andrew's email and pmail addresses.  Seeing
as I owe him a disk, I need to reestablish contact ASAP. 

Andrew: Your PO arrived today. Please contact me so I can send you the
software.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #163
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 164



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Any opinions on "Aliens Archive"
Infini-V Price Chance (USA Only)
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Keith Laumer and Bolos
Re: System Defense Boats
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: Belters and mining
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: US Marines
Rules of War (Was: IFF it worked that way...)
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Sandcasters
Re: 3D sectors
Re: US Marines
The InterAct Music System for Traveller
Nuking Japan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:48:05 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Any opinions on "Aliens Archive"

I just picked up "Aliens Archive" yesterday and was wondering if any of you
biology dudes out there can care to fill me in as to how "possible" some of
the aliens are.  Did Tim Brown even have a clue what he was talking about
when he wrote it, or does much of it actually make sense?




If it's green or wriggles, it's biology. 
If it stinks, it's chemistry.  
If it doesn't work, it's physics.






James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:33:46 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Infini-V Price Chance (USA Only)

I'm finally been able to open a US currency bank account, which greatly
reduces my costs for cashing US cheques.  Accordingly, I've reduced the
cost of Infini-V to $26 (US).  The Canadian price is unchanged at $25
(Cdn).

Astute followers of international exchange rates will note that the US
dollar is higher than the Canadian dollar, and may wonder why I'm not
taking this into account.  Actually, I am.  

First, although my fees have been reduced I must still pay to convert the
US funds to Canadian funds. Second, postage is higher for US-bound
packages.

I will not object to any Americans who choose to pay with a Candian postal
money order, but as so many of you seem to have a hard time doing this
(and I thought our banks were expensive and inconvenient!) I thought that
accepting US cheques would help.

My address, for those of you who don't want to hunt up my web page (and do
want to order) is:

Robert Prior
67 Greenbelt Crescent
Richmond Hill, Ontario
L4C 5S1
Canada


PS. Kenji, I dropped your disk in the mail today.  I look forward to
seeing a collection of strangely twisted yet plausible vehicles... :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:24:43 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> Steve Daniels schrieb:
>
> > Second, a
> > Third Imperium Church on the scale proportional to the Roman Catholic
> > Church.
> DONT! The Third Imperium has no official church, there are as many
> denominations as there are worlds (maybe even more). A unified,
> hierarchial church cant encompass this large a space. It wouldnt (and
> Shouldnt) work!

Umm, why not?  Such a church could be a pocket empire unto itself.  Or, it
could be a useful technique to spread the Imperium's message.  Besides, what
self organizing organization existing today is older than the Roman Catholic
church and Judaism?  Lets see, pre-revolutionary China, fine, Islam has been
pretty strong since its inception and significantly effects the politics of
a large portion of Africa and the Middle East/Central Asia, don't know
enough about Hinduism to say.  Is there a political entity/state still
existing today with the same government over a similar period?  I can't
think of one.  The message is clear to me, and I'm an aetheist, religion
perserveres even the most dramatic changes in civilization.  At least as
long as they progress.  I'm willing to concede that in a time of digression,
e.g. the long night, its not so clear.

> Religion in the 3I is personal. Many worlds have state religions, many
> have none, but the normal case is that everyone is free to live to the
> standards he chooses. Religious practices are usually more personal, not
> in a group.

If canon supports this, fine.  But you'll have to show me first.  I'm
limited to T4 materials.  IMHO, nothing supports this conclusion.  One of
the great things about Traveller is that it never covered every little
detail and left lots of lattitude for creativity.

> > Catholic Church.  I am leaning very strongly to making it based on
> > Judeo-Christianity.  Question concerns Traveller canon, not the other
> > kind:
>

> DONT DONT!!!
> The Terran influence is there, but it shouldnt have had that high an
> influence that people gave up their religion when the Terrans came.

Ok.  First, you don't have to play in my campaign.  (Just teasing you
:-)Second, this is where my lack of canon info hurts me.  Does canon say
there was no organized religion before contact with Terra?  If so, I find
that extremely hard to believe.  Sure, Terran christianity would not
necessarily spread and dominate.  But I'm talking about its survival into
the Mileu 0.

> > Is there any canon about the christianity from Terra?
> Its still exists on Terra itself, but not as many followers there as
> today (new influences from the outside changed many peoples worldview,
> making them turn their back on organized religion) and some
> Solomani-Colonized worlds where people settled that didt want to suffer
> the loss of religion experienced elsewhere.

Is this supported in canon materials?

> > I've got no problem having christianity survive to 2099 or whenever
> > contact was
> Survive: Yes!
> Spread to other worlds: A Bit, ok!
> Spread Imperiumwide: No Fucking way. Organized religion already is on
> the way out on this here world IMHO!

Like I said above, my idea is that if it can survive into Mileiu 0, and if
it can be known to Sylea, then its availability as an organizing force for
the Third Imperium is plausible.

Based on some more thinking, and a suggestion from some private email on
this topic, I'm considering having the organizing principle be worship of
the Grandfather.  The teachings of the Grandfather would be considered to be
revealed in the writings of such sophonts as Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, X of
Vilani, Y of Sylea, and perhaps Z of Zhodane.  (Side point, if any one has
any info or ideas on whatever creation myths existed for the Vilani,
Syleans, and Zhodani, I'd be appreciative if you'd share them).  The end
result would most likely be an open-minded utilitarian philosophy that might
have remnants of strict behavioral rules, which would be based on ancient
traditions derived from practices necessary for survival in low-tech
environments, e.g., prohibition on pork due to trichinosis, water
purification practices, circumsizion.etc.

Sure, individual systems might have different spins on this, but as long as
there is an agreed upon core of beliefs, the church I'm talking about might
flourish.  Besides, it also provides the possibility of heretics and forced
enlightment.

Lastly, I ain't got diddly squat on the Grandfather, so any info is welcome.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:29:10 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Keith Laumer and Bolos

	I just thought I'd post the note that some new Bolo works are coming out by a
favorite Traveller Writer, William Keith (one's out already and I think the
other is supposed to be out soon).

	And if I remember next time, I'll see about posting his web site.....

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:32:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 hal@buffnet.net wrote:

> Hello Folks,
>   Just a minor question here based upon CT tactics versus any of the other
> version...
> 
>   Doesn't a home defense crew have a major advantage over a newly arriving
> fleet when it comes to battles?  Specifically speaking - and I am not even
> talking about the advantages involved in not having to jump away, or
> firepower advantages...
> 
>   Ships that are low in fuel, taking a fuel hit, tend to suffer more than
> ships with topped up fuel tanks...
> 
>   Comments?

In light of Bolie's remarks (that hydrogen in vacuum is not volatile) a
starship with even partially full jump tanks has an advantage over an SDB
which doesn't even carry 10% of its displacement as fuel.  The fuel makes
a good damage sink, and the ships need it to continue operating, so it's
better to have more than less.

Of course, if we're using HEPlaR, that SDB has a lot of fuel too, and the
starship is perhaps using up its jump fuel on tactical maneuvers, or
saving its maneuver fuel for an emergency jump.  SDB is in a much better
position here.

So in the end, I guess that it all "just depends".


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:35:43 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

Bolie Williams IV wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> > > In anycase, the US can hardly be seperated out for
> > > condemnation for using the tatics (bombing cities)
> > > that their foe helped initiate and everyone in
> > Although you must admid, American Cities remained relatively
> > (relatively? Completely!) unbombed during the entire war. It wasnt even
> > a "We must destroy them because otherwise they will destroy us", but
> > rather a "They are doing things that work against our interest, get them
> > away, the faster the better". I dont say the US should have just
> > contained the Japanese, but Nuking two cities was a little over the top.
> > Just do the math: How many lives were saved by those nukes? Substract
> > the loss of life, direct and indirect, that was caused by the bombs. The
> > result is negative, thus the use of the bombs was an evil thing to do.

I think you math is off here.  Roughly 140,000 directly in Hiroshima and
Nagasaki.  Indirectly, hard to say.  Double perhaps.  So, say, 500,000.  (Lot of
long term effects counteracted by dramatic change in such things as diet and
health care, which vastly improved in the late forties, resulting in much
extended life span and increased health - witness the dramatic increase in the
average height of Japanese citizens.  I think the shortest guy on their rugby
team is 6'2").  Estimated US losses at land invasion, conservative numbers by
those who wanted to invade: 1.5 Million US losses.  Approx 1% of U.S. total
population at the time.

> > Yes Evil! It doesnt matter that it was against "The Enemy!!", it was
> > directed against human life, against civilians. I see the use of the
> > nuke as one of the great atrocities of the 2nd WW, but since the Victors
> > commited it, it didnt cout, in their eyes, for they were "justified".

I would think that you as a German, would be talking about the approx. 140,000
(same as Hiroshima and Nagasaki together) that were killed at Dresden by
conventional bombs.

> > The Truth is always in the eyes of the beholder, history is written by
> > the winners, and this even proves these statements.

Even my Sensei, survivor of Hiroshima, would disagree with you.

I don't mean to get nasty, Volker, but how many Soviets and Jews died directly
in WWII?  About 26 Million all told.  Why you'd want to even discuss this topic
is beyond me.  I apologize for even reading this thread and will have no more to
do with it.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:06:28 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:56:41 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>

> >It doesn't matter.  The US was attacked and had a right to do what it
> >thought would save it's soldiers lives by bringing the war to an end.
>
> By this logic there is no such thing as a war crime, at least not if
> you are attacked. Is that what you believe?

No.  The US treatment of Japanese Americans, for example,
was wrong.  Executing prisoners of war was wrong.  I don't
say that _anything_ done was wrong.

However, what the US did was neither against international
law (which is the basis for a "war crime") nor different
in what either side had done before (except in how it
was carried out).  The nation of Japan attacked the US
and the US had a right to strike back.

>  Does the reverse apply too?
> That any loss of life caused by any action of an agressor is a crime?

Hard to say.  Agression is generally considered wrong and
so an agressor does have responsibility for the harm his wrong 
causes.  I don't know that this goes far enough to support
your statement however.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:38:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Belters and mining

Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:28:51 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> >I have read numerous statements to the effect that refuelling at a gas
> >giant is a bad idea. I assume this is because it takes a lot of resources
> >to get to a gas giant, which in turn garners you more cost than just buying
> >the dang fuel at regular prices.

> No, that's not it. What it costs you is time.

To summarize, a couple of the main conter arguements (and I
don't remember them all) is that this assumes that you
will always have your time fully scheduled with profitable
business and that you never pass through a system to refuel
to get someplace else....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:34:27 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

At 01:05 PM 2/13/98 PST, Greg Smith wrote:
>>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>> We may yet come to regret the precedents set in Nuremburg. But I do
>> feel that the idea that following orders may have consequences down
>> the road *is* a good one.

>When did we as a civilization (read that world) even begin to consider  
>that there were "rules to war"?  I don't believe the Romans had any 
>compunction about destroying peoples and lands.  Look what they did to 
>Carthage.

Started, in my opinion, back in the days of expensive knights and cheap
peasants.  If you let the knights mow down the peasants, everybody starves.
 If you kill all the knights, the peasants become leaderless, and soon
unrulable.  Further, it takes a long time and a lot of resources to create
another knight, so you would rather leave them mostly alive.  As a result,
you need to limit the total destruction to a level where you can keep
control, but large enough that people would rather give you what you want
than go to war with you.

Once the distinctions between classes diminished on the battlefield,
warfare became more dangerous.  Indiscriminate weapons also made it harder
to target just the powerful.

Finally we came full circle, and discovered that there are uses to avoiding
genocide.  This is the precedent Nuremberg tried to set.  Time will tell
whether this set of precedents is a good idea.

>ObTrav:  What are the rules for the Imperium, or at least how total is 
>their warfare?  I can't imagine them crushing planets 'cause they would 
>want to incorporate the peoples at some point and gain the technology.  
>So how do they fight?

The Imperium eventually developed a set of rules of war.  These were more
to keep them the top dogs - no major destruction, and no Imp-only weapons,
which mean that no megacorp fleet can stand against the impies.

IMTU, I have a different system for M0, based on trade.

Every four tech levels forms a band noted for trade.
0-4 - agricultural
5-8 - mechanized
9-12 - stellar
13-15 - high stellar

Trade is generally controlled between bands, with the degree of trade
depending on the status of a world.

Status:

Class I: Unrestricted - For whatever reason, any trade is allowed here
Class II: Restricted - All Imperial restrictions on tech level are followed.
	Otherwise, no major restrictions exist.  Most worlds are at this status
Class III: Colony - Further restrictions exist, and greater supervision exists
	to insure that under destruction of local life and habitat is prevented.
Class IV: Protectorate - Special restrictions exist, perhaps because of
	resitence to Imperial authorities
Class V: Interdicted - A red zone.

Worlds outside the borders follow the same scheme, though they are numbered
from 11-15 for allies, 21-25 for trade partners, 31-35 for neutrals, and
41-45 for hostiles.

In general, the higher the number within one of these categories, the less
that can be brought in by merchants, the more freedom the Navy has about
the world, and the less the Moot wants to hear about it.  The closer they
come to membership, the more the Imperium is careful about local customs
and destruction of infrastructure.

For example, a world that is rated 41 is one that the Imperium would
generally approve of highly, such as a high pop TL 12 industrial world.
Because it is hostile, forces are generally allowed to attack with great
vigor if they get feisty, but rules of engagement will try to prevent out
and out war.

A world that is a 45 would normally be interdicted if they were in the
Imperium, and thus is not considered worth a lot of effort, but virtually
any captain can decide to act against it.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:01:07 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: US Marines

At 03:41 PM 13/02/98 EST, Gary wrote:
>Doug Berry wrote:
>>2>  What do Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, and Charles Whitman have in
>>common?
>
>Not many soldiers who can shoot as well as Marines.  They may have been
>complete fruit cakes but those guys could shoot. 
>
Those magic bullets sure help :)

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:58:39 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Rules of War (Was: IFF it worked that way...)

At 01:05 PM 13/02/98 PST, you wrote:
>When did we as a civilization (read that world) even begin to consider  
>that there were "rules to war"?  I don't believe the Romans had any 
>compunction about destroying peoples and lands.  Look what they did to 
>Carthage.
>
The Romans did have rules, but they really only applied to other people -
the Romans found them a fine excuse to go to war with somebody. Like their
treatys, the only ones who were allowed to break them were the Romans. 

Nothing's changed, has it?

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:06:11 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 04:18 PM 13/02/98 -0600, Richard A. Flores wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>(OBTW:  Any relation to Anne?)
As a matter of fact: Yes
>
>>The Germans were the first to
>>develop and use combined arms & air power usefully, and thrashed the
>>British and French in France, even though the allies were more numerous and
>>better equiped.
>
>And let us not forget the reintegration of cavalry (tanks) and infantry.  Or
>the inclusion of artillery pieces with infantry units.
>
Not to mention the notion of giving every man and his dog a LAW, and the
concept of General Purpose MGs.

- -- Rupert Boleyn
"If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:34:33 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

>>One caveat:...

[snip of my blah blah blah!]

>>One more question: If the 3I has grav focus beams, why not repulsors?
>
>Each gameturn represents 30 minutes (or some such large number) and each
>hit roll involves hudreds of shots. If a shot misses you do not need a
>densitometer to detect it, just a optical sensor as the beam lobe may decay
>(angularly) very fast but it's also VERY bright.


What does it matter if its tens of thousands of shots, if they are
undetectable? :-) But I understand your point.

And a beam lobe is ... ?

Is it "lost" light, stuff scattered from the laser at it's source because
the laser beam is not perfectly focused?


>The gravfocus handwave uses a gravsoliton wave travelling with the pulse
>and focussing all the time, otherwise the field strengths for the focussing
>would be strong enough to be a weapon in itself. A soliton meeting a beam
>wouldn't affect it at all.


And a soliton is ... ?

Explain it to me like I'm stupid ('cuz I am). "-on" is particle, right?
What is solit? Or am I way off-base?

I understand the fact that you need the beam to handwave grav focussing,
because otherwise you would need just about a singularity at the source to
focus the light. What I was wondering, though, was that if you *can*
project a gravity wave, say of only 1G force (or less even), wouldn't that
make a good thing for nudging a laser det missile's focusing array (and
keeping it from hitting?) Isn't that the idea behind a repulsor?

>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se

[No more blah blah blah! :-)]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:14:28 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Hey Deadeye, (and all the rest that are working on 3D mapping),

I have an idea for how you might be able to model the sectors in 3D.
Someone else suggested using wire and beads, and that's what I suggesting as
well, but with a difference.  You would mount the wires between 2 folding
boards.  The ends could be set in such a way that they would swivel so that
the boards could be closed up and carried.

Let's see if I can show you what I mean.

==========o==========
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
==========o==========

 \\          //
 |\\        //|
 ||\\      //||
 |||\\    //|||
 ||||\\o//||||
 |||||     |||||
 |||||    |||||
 |||||   |||||
\\||||   ||||//
 \\|||   |||//
  \\||   ||//
   \\|   |//
    \\o//

Well, maybe you get the idea anyway.  When folded out, you could even use a
tape measure to measure the distance between systems.  Well, what do you
think?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:40:17 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: US Marines

>Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:41:26 EST
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: US Marines
>
>Doug Berry wrote:
>
>>1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
>>in history?

>That's cause the Marines were all busy in the Pacific, hitting places like
>Okinawa and Iwo Jima...  Overlord was a classic Marine amphibious
>assault...gleened from techniques validated the hard way against the Japanese.
>It was just done w/ larger #s.  Marines wouldn't have needed nearly that
>many...  : P

I'd be very careful what you lay claim to:*> You might want to read about
the US assaults on Omaha and Utah beaches, especially when compared with the
British and Canadians on Gold, Sword and Juno. Both US assaults came within
a hairs breadth of failure and compare *very* badly with the British and
Canadians. If Overlord was a classic USMC assault, all I can say is thank
heavens the Brits and Canadians followed there own lessons learnt at those
obscure places like Gallipoli, Dieppe, Sicily, Salerno etc. You may also
wish to compare the US Navy/Marine campaigns of Nimitz and Halsey in the
South and Central Pacific with the US Army campaigns of McAurthur in New
Guinea and the Phillipines. By virtually all measures McArthur's methods
were far more successful with much lower resources than those of Nimitz
and Halsey (and produced a much lower body count).

The moral of all this, things are rarely as they seem and the individual
fighting man and woman is little different regardless of which nation or
unit they are serving with (they all bleed red!).

However, since this has *absolutely nothing* to do with Traveller, I will
reply only to email.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:20:56 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: The InterAct Music System for Traveller

Another item that I brainstormed rather quickly since I've been thinking about
entertainment in the Traveller universe.  As with the "Dress Me Up"
holographic doll, any and all remarks, suggestions, questions and assorted
comments are welcome.

"InterAct Music System"

The InterAct System is based on a standard design proposed by Makhidkarun, but
released throughout the Imperium.  Many entertainment systems are fleshed out
with this option, and Makhidkarun's software is of the absolute highest
quality.  Lower quality systems can be purchased from other corporations,
however.  True fans of "kaadmukim" (a Vilani word roughly translated as
"interactive music") swear by Makhidkarun's systems.

Kaadmukim becomes possible around the time that houses, businesses and
spacecraft become "wired", with either one central computer, or several
dedicated control systems.  In a wired household, room temperatures are
adjusted to a (pre-set) comfortable level when the room is inhabited, lights
go when someone is about to enter a darkened room, and go off a few moments
after a room is left unoccupied.  Many household items are wired, so that they
can be found easily should they become lost or misplaced.  Doors can be
automatically closed or locked, depedning on the pre-sets, outside lights can
be turned on when it is dark, an outside pool can be heated from the living
room couch, if such a thing is desired.  Basically, the house is 'smart' and
does a number of minor chores as needed, and can be interfaced with any number
of specially made devices and robots.

The InterAct Music System takes this to another level.  Speakers are placed
around the house for optimum listening enjoyment, and all of the signals that
go to and from the house's computer are turned into 'music'.  Pre-recorded
sound and music tracks are recorded onto a kaadmukim cube, and are played
according to the digital signals that pump through the household.  Depending
on the kaadmukim band's (or performer's) skill, the effects can be amazing.
The cube is never heard the same way twice.  The tracks are played in fashion
that is apparently random, although is based on events that the house computer
is processing at the time.  As wired items are moved through the house, seats
are sat in, and appliances are used, the music will shift and change according
to the original band or performer's desires.  Kaadmukim writing is an intense
discipline in and of itself, because the performer has to surrender much of
the control and order to the 'chaotic' demeanor of a modern household.  The
basic effect of many kaadmukim cubes is that of a movie soundtrack, or piece
of classical music.  Themes are repeated in variations, all aspects of the
music are changed by the literally countless tasks the house computer is
performing, while underlying elements stay the same.  Some fans of the medium
prefer performers who forego any attempt of masking the randomness with order,
and enjoy the chaotic sound of what has come to be known as "gushiimukim"
(roughly translated as "music from chaos"), the random patterns of a household
are transformed into sounds and snippets that are, in and of themselves,
random.  The effect can be very fascinating, but can also be very
disconcerting and sometimes frightening as well.

Kaadmukim of all forms is a very popular medium, especially at parties and get
togethers.  An "asha kaadmukim" (roughly translated as DJ, or disc jockey in
our crude 20th century english) will usually have a special deck with the
ability to hold more then one kaadmukim cube at a time and with the ability to
mix them and change them as desired.  A highly skilled "asha kaadmukim" will
be able to "smack the cubes" (manipulate a deck) with an ability and
efficiency that can be downright awe-inspiring.  A popular dance scene, with a
huge number of off-shoots and mutations, has sprung up.  One such offshoot,
similar to 20th century rap, has performers improvising rhymes over top of the
ever changing music.  But, the way that a master "asha kaadmukim" can move a
crowd should not be underestimated.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:13:19 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Nuking Japan

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:03:23 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:56:41 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Nuking Japan
>
>David P. Summers
>>It doesn't matter.  The US was attacked and had a right to do what it
>>thought would save it's soldiers lives by bringing the war to an end.
>
>By this logic there is no such thing as a war crime, at least not if
>you are attacked. Is that what you believe? Does the reverse apply too?
>That any loss of life caused by any action of an agressor is a crime?

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Mr Summers. And, as far as I can tell, the
"rules" (such as they are) do to.

There was a "no first use" rule regarding Chemical Weapons in WW2 ... and the US
and UK were quite ready to use Chemical Weapons (and had both stockpiles of and
plans for the use of same) if the Axis used them *first*.

As I understand it, recent (misguided) international attempts notwithstanding,
this is the current situation regarding nuclear weapons as well. It is
technically illegal to use them *first*, but quite OK (in a legal sense) to use
them in response to someone else using them first.

This is entirely logical. Under Australian law (and, as I understand it, UK and
US law) the law of self-defence allows a person to respond with *equivalent*
force. If someone threatens you with their fist, then you may respond with your
fist, but not a gun etc. (yes, there are exceptions, a 90 lb female would be
perfectly justified in shooting an unarmed but intent on rape 270 lb male
martial artist ... similar exemptions could be inferred onto wartime practise).

Since, according to international convention, waging a war of aggression is a
war crime, I guess that a loose interpretation is that everything done during
that wart is a crime as well. However, believe it or not, the "I was just
following orders" defence is *still* an acceptable one, under more limited
circumstances than applied before 1944 (when the allies, or at least the UK,
changed the rules so they could "get" the Germans and Japanese) ... and this
would, by my understanding of it, allow the ordinary grunts (and even their
company and field grade officers) to defend themselves against war crime
charges, while still leaving the political leadership and military high command
open to such.

>It seems to me that the whole concept of war crimes arise from the
>idea that there are some things you're not entitled to do, even to
>defend yourself. Terror-bombing to break the enemy's will, torture to
>extract useful information, the use of hostages, execution of POWs,
>use of defoilants and napalm, the whole shooting match.

I would qualify the above ... there are some things you're not entitled to do
*unless the other side does it first*. I would further suggest that, in the face
of a *truly inimical* enemy, then there *are* no real rules, except those that
ensure the survival of the state. In other words, if the enemy does not play by
the same rules that you do, or they twist the rules in ways no-one ever
intended, then all bets should really be off ... to use an example, the Bugs in
Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" or Weber's "In Death Ground".

>Of course, some of the things I mention above are against the Geneva
>Convention, but if using them would shorten the war and save friendly
>casualties, wouldn't it be morally wrong to adhere to the convention?

Professional soldiers usually make such decisions (except for Nukes), and they
tend to be more conservative than their political masters ... and realise the
consequences of using the weapons better. In general, I guess, saner heads have
tended to prevail in the past ... and we can hope that this will apply in the
future as well.

>The US may have been justified in dropping nuclear bombs on Japan. I
>don't think so, but I admit that I don't have all the facts and that
>I may be wrong. But if they were justified, then it must have been for
>other reasons than a blanket absolution caused by the fact that the
>Japanese were the original aggressors.

While I am sorry for the civilian casualties suffered by the Japanese at
Hiroshima and Nagasaki in an abstract sense, in that they were truly the victims
of their own leaders, I have absolutely no trouble with the two cities being
nuked. The Japanese started the war, and the US were entitled to use any legal
means of ending it.

If a large scale war started today, then the situation would be different,
different rules now apply to Atomic Weapons ... however, for example, if Mr
Hussein decided to use Chem and Bio weapons against Israel, then the Israelis
are perfectly entitled to Nuke Baghdad (and anywhere else in Iraq) till it
glows, in a legal sense, as all these weapons are classified as "weapons of mass
destruction" and the use of any one allows retaliation with any other.

Or are you suggesting that the Israelis, in such a situation, should sit back
and recoil in horror and say "Oh dear, we should never even consider retaliating
with atomic weapons, because they're illegal. We would rather see all the people
in Israel die by Gas or Plague."

Given the difficulties the coalition had in destroying Scud launchers during the
last unpleasantness in the Gulf (they evidently didn't get a single one), I
guess that sending an unequivocal message like a nuke is really the only way of
stopping a madman like Hussein. Or do you seriously suggest that the Israelis
(or anyone else) should sit back and recoil in horror at the thought of reacting
"inappropriately" in that set of circumstances, while their citizens are being
slaughtered?

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #164
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 13 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 165



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: System Defense Boats
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: TNS on GURPS site
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
IG folding/Supporting Traveller
Hail Eris (All Hail Discordia)
Re: Minor Human Homeworlds (Luriani)
Re: Tribute...
Final WWII Jingoistic Rant: Correction
new question of the week
Re: Character Names
Re: Belly Up Yada Yada Yada
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
USMC/ETO/WWII
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: System Defense Boats
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: War Crimes
Re: Religion in Mileu 0

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:34:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

 
> If the system is a frontier one, the enemy fleet might jump to the GG,
> refuel and jump inwards.
 
 meant under tha assumption that the GG itself wasn't the only thing
of interest. Obviously if it is the only thing there, it has some
value.

- -Merrick 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:27:37 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"


Les Froggies are back within NATO.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:01:39 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> 
> ISTR French land-based nuclear missiles have (had?) a fairly short range -
> just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!
>
Well, they're back "in", sort of.  They never really left the political
arm, just the military arm.  And now, they're kind of "back."

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:01:01 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: TNS on GURPS site

I really love the subtlety of the radio commentary, e.g., "Free Trader
Beowulf . .  . Come in, Beowulf . . . "  IT really is spooky when you
take the link to read the other side of the conversation on the Free
Trader Beowulf site.  Ok, I'm hooked.  I'll be buying all the Gurps
stuff (thats worth buying) as well as all the T4.1 stuff.  I really
really hope and pray that either or both versions will ressurect the
Mercenary and High Guard Chargen stuff.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:09:14 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>


>Also, I believe that many English-speaking people are using the word
>Yuletime (or something like that) to refer to the week or so before and
>after Christmas. Is this correct, or am I mistaken?

Where I come from (middle America) the expression is Yuletide.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:18:09 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In article <01BD3819.94D58140@HOMESTEAD.hartwick.edu>,
"Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:
>Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
>How can a measly Destroyer devastate a planet?
>
>The billions GDW killed off through attacks on civilian life-support 
>facilities during the Black War might be able to answer that question for 
>you.

Add the fact that a destroyer has enough power to accelerate a reasonably
large rock at any planet, and to keep doing it if not challenged
by other spacecraft.

- - 
Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:    frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |         frankie@ibm.net 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:01:49 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: IG folding/Supporting Traveller

	I can't say whether IG's folding or not. And it doesn't particularly matter
if they did (and I doubt Marc would be working so hard on T4.1 if IG were
folding and he didn't at least have another outlet).
	If anything I'd expect IG to slow down this year to catch it's breath, which
would be good for all of us.

	I've got plenty of Traveller Projects on the drawing boards. And I'm hoping
to do more.

	The most useful thing for some of us to do is support whatever incarnation of
Traveller you have the pleasure of playing with. And that's one of my
developing projects (I expect over the next couple of months I can get some GM
aids put together for use at CONs and stores. Some flyers and hopefully maybe
some other stuff. This will end up posted to a web site for use).

	Where possible other incarnations of Traveller will be supported.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:31:28 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Hail Eris (All Hail Discordia)

>Great! So you wouldn't mind it when your local school allowed the following
>religions to demostrate their beliefs to your children:  Santeria, Voodun,
>Santanism, Dionysian Fertillity Rites, Paganism, Druidism, and a group of
>Discordians praising Eris.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with the worship of our lady Eris?  No apple
for you matey *g*

Mick Bailey
Deacon, Paratheoanametamystikhood of Eris Esoteric (POEE)
A non-prophet irreligious disorganisation

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:57:49 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Minor Human Homeworlds (Luriani)

May I suggest as the Luriani Homeworld:

Derri/Fornast 2316 B76AAA8-C   Hi Wa 720 Im K0 V (in 1120)

Allowing for up to 5% of the world's surface to be land, it gives a
land area of 19,704,069Km2 (roughly 2.5 Australia's, or 2 Canada's or
China's; or plenty of land to start with). Assuming a large number of
Islands this gives an interesting martime culture. Give me a day or
three and I'll come up with a rough on their culture

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:52:54 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Tribute...

John D. Muncy writes:

>>BTW, if for some reason my players were to bring in fudge covered Oreos
>>for my consumption (I prefer the regular as opposed to the white chocolate
>>variety), suitable rewards would be arranged, Nick and John.   :-)
>
>WHAT?!...you burn our villages, take our women, and now you want
>tribute?!...
>You ruthless *&%^$#...may your groin be infested with the fleas from a 
>thousand camels!

   <whack!>  Back in your cage you pig!!!  <whack!>  <whack!>

   It's so hard to get good slave players these days...

   <whack!>  And stop your whimpering or I won't let your character
recover from that veneral disease he picked up from the Morale Officer!

Regards,

Harold

- ------------------------------------------------------------
This message is certified to come from *the* Harold D. Hale, 
not some newsgroup wannabe.
- ------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:17:21 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Final WWII Jingoistic Rant: Correction

Despite Geneva, there is really NO SUCH THING as a WAR CRIME.  There is
only
unjuust retribution on the part of the part of the winner against the 
loser.  Realizing this, our government has historically erred in
fighting
our wars overseas, and not on our home soil when possible.  We are also
concerned with ensuring that we don't lose wars.  This is the very 
reason why we deploy our forces abroad.  Fight over THERE, not HERE.  
Had we done this in the 1930's, one might argue that there would have
been no WWII.  

Change this to read: 

Realizing this, our government has historically erred in FAVOR OF
fighting
our wars overseas, and not on our home soil when possible.

BTW, since I feel this thread is a useless exercise involving an
unalterable difference of opinion, I will no longer discuss it on this
list.
Apologies to those whose feathers were ruffled.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:48:49 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: new question of the week

	Okay it looks like my CD-project is going to be a go.

	Right now it definitely includes the following:

	TML digests from 1987-current
	Xboat digests from 1994(?)-to the end
	Traveller Navigator software
	Galactic 2.4
	Megatraveller 1 demo
	Megatraveller 2 demo
	Megatraveller GM Aid

	Probably being added on:
	Hiwg sectors files (1120 and 1200)
	old GDW/DGP sector files
	HIWG files
	myriads of software, some CT, most MT
	various spreadsheets

	Cost will be in the $10 to $15 area (probably $15 for non-HIWG members and
$10 for HIWG members, people contributing material will be treated as HIWG
members insofar as cost is concerned; copyrights will be retained by the
authors of the material).

	It should start being available at the end of this month or by mid-March.

	The material will be in ASCII text (except the software or spreadsheets, most
of which are in C or Basic and Excel format). The CD-ROM will be in ISO-9660
format so it should hopefully be able read by all machines.

	I also expect if things work will that there will be yearly updates wqith
even more interesting material.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:30:35 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Character Names

Bolie IV wrote:


>Are there any good resources for generating or choosing
>names for Vilani (or any other races)?  I found some word
>generators but was wondering if anyone had any good name
>lists...

If the Vilani are anything like modern Earthlings, it sounds to me like
you've got all the resources you need.  Consider some English names like
Carpenter, Cooper, Hunter, Smith.  Or here's a couple that I know from
German names like Eisenhower or Mueller.

Probably everyone knows what carpenters and smiths do.  A cooper was someone
who made barrels.  For you non-German speakers (like me), an eisenhower
mines iron and a muller mills grain.  My German classes are years behind me,
so I may not have remembered the first name correctly.  If I did, I hope
that one of our native German speaking list members will tell me what an
eisenhower does to or with that iron.  (As long as I have your attention,
did you know that most Americans think a stein is a large mug (especially
one used for drinking beer)?  Weird, no?)

My point is that if you can assign professions or just about anything else,
you can assign names.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:53:07 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Belly Up Yada Yada Yada

John Kovalic writes:

>>P.S.  Given that anyone can pretend to be anybody on a mailing list (I can
>>give you specific instructions on how to do this with Netscape if you would
>>like), I would chalk this up to wild ass rumor, nothing more.
>
>I'll be honest, when I first read the post, it didn't sound like you at
>all, Harold. (I imagine you'd have gone on and on and on about the topic
>(grin))

   I will admit it was pretty darn convincing (so much so, I'm changing
my password with my ISP).

   As for any commentary I might have issued were the WAR true, OK, I
might have gone on for say...two or three pages, but now you are putting
me in a situation I'd rather not go.  :-)

***The Official Statement From the Official Harold D. Hale, 
Official Editor of Traveller Chronicle, 
Regarding the Purchase of IG Products***

   By now, everyone here has heard the reviews of the various products
available.  Buy those you feel give you *value*.  IG's financial
situation or whether or not the stuff is in print is irrelevant.  I have
in the past recommended to people that they buy certain IG products.  I
stand by those recommendations.

Regards,

Harold

- ------------------------------------------------------------
This message is certified to come from *the* Harold D. Hale, 
not some newsgroup wannabe.
- ------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:05:31 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> At 10:42 AM 13/02/98 -0600, Bolie Williams IV wrote:
> >
> >The two nuclear bombs droped on Hiroshim and Nagasaki did not kill as many
> >people as many of the firebombing raids against Tokyo.  They just happened
> >to be particularly dramatic.  The Japanese were going to fight to the
> >death... even after the first bomb dropped, they weren't going to surrender.
> >
> IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the country
> was paralysed by the refugees, and they couldn't sort out what terms (if
> any) they would try for and get in touch with the US before the second bomb
> was dropped. IMO three days was too little time. How long would the US have
> taken to make up its mind in similar circumstances?
> 
> -- Rupert Boleyn

Actually, there was still resistance to the idea of surrender on the
part of the militant Japanese wartime leaders.  Yes, evean after the 1st
bomb had been dropped.  I believe that they just didn't believe
the reports that they had received.  In any case, that bomb was already
out there in the Pac, just ticking away, waiting to be flown in.   

Anything less than immediate unconditional surrender was out of the
question at the time.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:53:22 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>At 10:42 AM 13/02/98 -0600, Bolie Williams IV wrote:
>>
>>The two nuclear bombs droped on Hiroshim and Nagasaki did not kill as many
>>people as many of the firebombing raids against Tokyo.  They just happened
>>to be particularly dramatic.  The Japanese were going to fight to the
>>death... even after the first bomb dropped, they weren't going to surrender.
>
>IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the country
>was paralysed by the refugees, and they couldn't sort out what terms (if
>any) they would try for and get in touch with the US before the second bomb
>was dropped. IMO three days was too little time. How long would the US have
>taken to make up its mind in similar circumstances?

   Given that the Japanese government had already been given terms by
the US and its allies, and the Japanese government had access to more
than enough resources with which they could have contacted the Americans
to accept those terms, and that the American government had no way of
knowing *why* the Japanese weren't responding, three days was plenty of
time.

   The US would have probably never surrendered, just as the British
refused to surrender even though they were getting their butts kicked on
a daily basis by the Luftwaffe in 1940-41.  We got our mom's stubborn
streak.  :-)

Regards,

Harold

- ------------------------------------------------------------
This message is certified to come from *the* Harold D. Hale, 
not some newsgroup wannabe.
- ------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:09:41 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: USMC/ETO/WWII

>1>  How many Marines went ashore on D-Day, the largest amphibious landing
>in history?

None. There were no USMC ground units in the ETO except for a small force in
Iceland early on. FDR's orders. I don't know why, but they were restricted to
operations elsewhere, mostly the Pacific.

Loren (who wrote the USMC supplement for Command Decision) Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:44:15 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Andrew Boulton schrieb:

> ISTR French land-based nuclear missiles have (had?) a fairly short range -
> just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!
Yes, i know! Anyway the war would have worked out, we would have been
screwed had it come down to the use of nukes. Had it not, Germany would
still have been the main battleground, screwing us all the same. But
hey, at least the rest of the world remained free.
ObTrav: Somehow this reminds me of the later stages of the Rebellion
wars, when friendly worlds were devastated by both sides (Attacker and
defender) in either way not allowing the enemy not to get/keep control
over vital resources. This goes to show that alliances are best for
those at the center of it as these Countries/Worlds only loose those
resources they are willing to commit, while the frontiers get beaten up
and bombed back into stone-age (Wilds)!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:52:57 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

SD Mooney wrote:

>Before we go into panic mode on as yet unsubstantiated rumours about IG's
>demise (here we go again!) why don't we take a few seconds and *think about
>it*?
>
>What is Traveller? - Traveller is the SFRPG that Marc and co  originally
>released back in 77. It is not Imperium Games.
>
>What keeps Traveller alive? The fans, and the people who spend hours
>creating material for use by the players. What is the state of this
>material? IG material is freely available (even *if* the rumour is true
>they're not going to pulp it). BITS/CORE have material available and is
>active. Freelance Traveller, Signal GK and TraV Chronicle still exist. SJG
>are still planning GURPS Traveller. Marc is working on T4.1 and there are
>other works available. Think of the effort people go to to get old
>Traveller material.
>
>So before we all go into a frenzy (and Phil McGregor goes into ecstasy at
>GT becoming the published system;-) ) remember that Traveller isn't going
>to die even if this as yet unsubstantiated rumour is true. It has survived
>4 editions and 2 main publishers so far.

I beg to differ.

Traveller is in trouble if IG demises. Without a publisher other than SJG,
it is not likely there will be an independent set of Traveller mechanics in
print. There will therefore be a lack of support.

I think you are being naive to the reality of the business world if you
believe Marc Miller can keep lining up investors for a game that has
repeatedly failed over the short term. Anyone who does their homework will
see that more established games have had much greater longevity than almost
any of the editions of Traveller.

This is not to say that some crazed fool won't ignore these facts and
finance a fifth edition of the game anyway. But it grows increasingly
unlikely with each failure of the game to stand on its own two feet.

Traveller hasn't failed because it isn't great. It wouldn't have such a
loyal following if it didn't. But most of the market isn't as patient,
forgiving or loyal as the members of the TML.

My guess is we'll have to be content with the materials published by SJG.
Not an entirely bad scenario especially when you consider that Loren
Wiseman is the editor. But a little piece of the game dies when it ceases
to have its own mechanics system.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:21:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Walter G. Smith wrote:

> In High Guard, one of the best ships to be in when under meson attack was a config-7 (dispersed structure) hull - all those modules strung together on an open framework, chances are the meson strike would go off in empty space.
> 
> But isn't an Azhanti High Lightning Jump-5 Frontier Cruiser almost 50% empty space when it's jump fuel tanks are dry?

It would be easy enough to make a rule using a ten-sided die:  for each
parsec's worth of jump fuel *not* on board the ship, a meson shot has a
10% chance of going off in an empty fuel tank.  When you get to the newer
tech archs that doesn't work so well, though.  It certainly poses some
interesting tactical questions.

OTOH, maybe the meson decay happens along a line segment, rather than at a
point in space.  If this is true, the line segment might completely
intersect the hull, including the sides of the fuel tanks and the
surrounding components.  In this case, the dispersed structure may have an
advantage because there is less average distance along an attacking meson
beam's path over which a particle decay will effect the target; i.e. the
ship is "thinner".  Put another way, 50% empty space in a volume that is
compact overal may not be much when compared to a dispersed structure,
which might be 95% empty space or more, really spread out.

> I don't think the rules pay attention to this, but perhaps (especially with very high jump capable vessels) they should. And I imagine battle tactics would be very, very different if there was a risk factor to carrying around full tanks of fuel with you. The commander would get to choose: Does he preserve his capability to escape into jump space at the cost of increased vulnerability to critical hits?

Again, an interesting tactical delimma.


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 02:25:43 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Private Discussion will be taken off the list

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:38:27 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

Daniel Ray Lane schrieb:

> This is a very direct, unsupported statement that is currently the
> subject of debate in the US and overseas.  It is absolutely NOT a
> foregone conclusion that the number of deaths WITH the bombs would
> have been LESS than had we (the US) NOT dropped them.  The truth of the
> matter was simple.  WWII in the Pacific (no less than the Atlantic)
> was a war that the US did not start (at least in a military sense).
> The attack on Pearl was without prior warning despite the best,
Those commanding the attack didnt know there had been no declaration
yet. The atack wasnt intended as a sneak attack. Yes, the Japanese did
commit many atrocities and killed many men, it was right to defeat them,
BUT NOT AT THIS HIGH A COST IN *PURELY* CIVILIAN LIVES!
It is the mark of civilized man not to stoop down to the level of ones
enemy. In war, your target is to defeat the enemies war effort.
Crippling his civilian population as a cause in itself isnt right. If a
few civilians die because of mistakes of because they were near military
installations is undesirable, but can happen, but intentional
annihilation of two major cities by use of A-Bombs (considering the side
effects as well) is amoral and wrong, no matter how high the loss of
military life could possibly go. I believe in the honor principle. When
i was in the military, or if i were to be called to defend my country
now, i would go and even die fighting the invaders. I am, in uniform,
prepared to defend my ideals and my country, including its allies and
friends. I will not, never ever, kill a civilian intentionally. He
doesnt endanger me directly. If i were a civilian i would bloody well
expect not to be killed intentionally, because there is no reason to
kill me, as i am no danger. Every person has a right to life. Its the
most basic human right. 
The attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an intentional hit against
CIVILIANS, not military installations. It isnt 100% proven Japan
surrendered because of these attacks. When they were made, it couldnt
be seen as certain thatJapan would surrender as a consquence, especially
after the first hit didnt provoke a reaktion.

> Many, many Americans would have died in the
> landings on the Japanese mainland and the subsequent occupation.  We
> as a nation were unwilling to make that sacrifice, (...)
Its the old scheme of us or them again, isnt it? Were all humans! We
are one, even if we have different nationalities (which I personally
would gladly give up). To kill millions of innocent enemies should be as
hard as sending thausands or tens of thousands of our own men
into battle and risk their death, even harder than that. It is ones
duty as a human being to protect the innocent and to punish the bad, but
not at the expense of the innocent.

> We have a saying over here, and maybe you have heard it...it goes like
> this:
> 
>         "All is fair in love and war."
Which is a horrible thing to say. 
> 
> it goes along with this saying:
> 
>         "War is Hell"
That is true, but we make it thus! We decide  which level of hell we
decend to!
> 
> Despite Geneva, there is really NO SUCH THING as a WAR CRIME.  There is
Wrong. Some things are never right, no matter how dire the consequences.
When faced with the 2-way scenario: Lose the war, and not commit
atrocities and win, but commit atrocities beyond redemption, the choice
should be hard to make, but clear to see.
And here you didnt even stand to loose the war anymore, the outcome was
clear. 
You could have done what you did in Iraq: Rather than facing high human
loss or nuking Baghdad, they called off the attack, since Saddam Hussein
was no real threat anymore.
Japans war effort had already been crippled, with the attack of the SU,
it was over, no imminent danger was present anymore. An War Crime
remains a war crime, no matter what you call it

> only unjuust retribution on the part of the winner against the
> loser.  Realizing this, our government has historically erred in fighting
> our wars overseas, and not on our home soil when possible.  We are also
> concerned with ensuring that we don't lose wars.  This is the very
> reason why we deploy our forces abroad.  Fight over THERE, not HERE.
> Had we done this in the 1930's, one might argue that there would have
> been no WWII.
Oh WWII would have happened but differently. I am glad you americans
intervened when you did, else where would we be now in Europe. However i
still believe some things are morally wrong things to do. The dropping
of the A-Bombs was such a thing.
> 
> You may perceive those two nukes as an atrocity.  I perceive them
> as a necessity.  Pray (yes I suggest you pray) that this necessity
That i cannot/willnot do! (Atheist, you know)
> never arises again.  Because there won't be a world left if its the
> US that is attacked.
I hope you (Americans) are not as stupid as that..."Duh, were dead meat
anyway, lets take the rest of the planet with us!". If this is the
general feeling, there is something very rotten in the core of your
country! Sorry, but thats how i see an attitude like that!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 03:20:28 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com schrieb:

> >A unified, hierarchial church cant encompass this large a space.
> >It wouldnt (and Shouldnt) work!
> Huh? Like, er, the 3I is based on the Age of Colonisation, with far
> flung regions kept together by infrequent ships. Where it could take
> two years for a message to cross the Empire. It was an environment
> various religious groups (the Jesuits come to mind) flourished in.
> Think: the dominant religion in Latin and South America today is a
> direct result of how successful they are.
>   Your argument doesn't stand.
Yes it does! in an environment like this, multiple little sects and
groups formed on earth, in an environment like the 3I, there would
already various religions present.
In Latin and South america, people were forced at swordtip to convert,
those that didnt were killed. The 3I or RoM had no special focus on
religion, their eyes were set on economic or military conquest. 
Also note that religious fervor and fanatism was at a high point in
colonization period of earth history, whereas nowadays,
Judaism-Christianity are more docile. Project this forward to the RoM
and you will get some fanatical splinter groups (as exist today). Those
will go out and settle new worlds where they can do their thing
undisturbed (See Solomani and Aslan for Solomani Sphere colonization).
Christianity is far from the most prominent religion today, others still
have more numbers (Percentage of Hinduism is growing every day) Also, in
our western world, Atheism and Agnosticism are gaining rapidly.

> Why not? They give up their rulership and their language, buy into
> the Cultural Imperialism, religion is just one part of that.
>   The Judeo-Christian tradition is probably the one most familiar to
> Steve's players. It makes a good enough choice. (In my own variant
> universe you have the Holy Terran Confederacy instead of the Solomani
> where the religion is an evolved version of Judism, Christianity, and
> Muslim.)
The RoM was founded by all of earth Earth, not only the western world.
To assume, a wave of conversions can be made in outer space by
christianity is absurd. Vilani beliefs are fairly uniform, oppressed
cultures will revert to their own beliefs instead of adopting another
set of rules strange to them.
The Conquest of the Vilani Empire didnt mean Vilani were now a
minority, only few humans in any given system were Solomani, and they
had other things to do than to bother with converting the "heathens" to
an earth religion. 

> >> Is there any canon about the christianity from Terra?
> >Its still exists on Terra itself, but not as many followers there as
> >today
> The fellow asked for canon. This sounds like a personal opinion. Can
> you quote a reference.
No, i was just taking todays situation as a given and extrapolating
from the current trends. Over here, in Europe, organized religion is on
the way out: Churches are loosing thousands of members every year, and
this trend has been unbroken for years. Buddism isnt really a religion
per se, Hinduism isnt that strictly organized, Islam is, but in one
hundred years i expect them to be where we are now.

>   You betray your bias. I'm not going to challange your personal beliefs.
No bias here, just what i see happening today already.
And, i admit, i believe that proof of extraterrestial life would mean
that even more people turn their back on religion (but this is a
personal bias, granted!)

> But from a historical viewpoint, there has _always_ been organised
> religion. Ever since the dawn of humanity. 
Doesnt mean it has to stay like this forever. ;-)

> >> I've got no problem having christianity survive to 2099 or whenever
> >> contact was
> >Survive: Yes!
> >Spread to other worlds: A Bit, ok!
> >Spread Imperiumwide: No Fucking way.
> I've no doubt that Christianity will survive, in some form. Maybe not in a
As i said earlier, no doubt about that, no contest here.


And Bloo wrote:
> Umm, why not?  Such a church could be a pocket empire unto itself.  
As a religion in a pocket empire, no problem. I just dont think it
possible to take over dominance in Imperial space, because i feel that
even during the RoM, it wouldnt spread as much as you expected (see
arguments above)

>could be a useful technique to spread the Imperium's message. 
But the imperium isnt interested in the internal affairs of its
worlds. You can see that in the variety of governments within imperial
space. Also, on many worlds it would have exactly the opposite effect,
as two opposing religions often cause friction! Tryig to impose a new
religion on people who already have a given belief is not good for the
imperial cause. The methods of imperial growth, tactics and coercion are
very well detailed in M:0. 

>> Religion in the 3I is personal. Many worlds have state religions, many
>> have none, but the normal case is that everyone is free to live to the
>> standards he chooses. Religious practices are usually more personal, not
>> in a group.

>If canon supports this, fine.  But you'll have to show me first.  I'm
Dulinor came from Dlan, a world with its own firm beliefs, nothing like
Christianity. In the Traveller Adventure there is another
planet-worshipping religion. There is a religious pocket empire in the
Diaspora Sector, militaristic and also very much different. Oh yes and
the Church of the Chosen ones, a Vargr church! Other worlds have various
other religions, that deveopled on these worlds in various publications,
but i cant give an exact quote here now, youll just have to trust my
memory. But this are all solitary examples of the gret concept: Many
small beliefs, some confined to one person, some spread over multiple
worlds, no one religion professed by the 3I itself, no imperiumwide
Religious structure. Such a structure of organized imperiumwide religion
would be at par in influence and net worth with the megacorps. 

>limited to T4 materials.  IMHO, nothing supports this conclusion.  One of
In T4 this may be true, but older items from CT and MT Have different
thoughts.

>> DONT DONT!!!
>> The Terran influence is there, but it shouldnt have had that high an
>> influence that people gave up their religion when the Terrans came.

>Ok.  First, you don't have to play in my campaign.  (Just teasing you
Dont worry, i wont everyone may create his own campaign as he likes,
who am i to play in another mans campaign ;-)
> Second, this is where my lack of canon info hurts me.  Does canon say
>there was no organized religion before contact with Terra?  If so, I find
It doesnt say that. There will always be pockets of belief, some
larger, some smaller, but none imperiumwide, none as the religion of
State (Imperium). The Vilani might have had such a religion as they
forced everyone they conquered to adopt their culture. However that
would make a spreading of Terran religion even more difficult, if there
already is a large and established religion in place. But somehow i
rather believe Religion in Vilani Space was not as strictly organized
(though probably very formalized) as we know it from Terra!

>that extremely hard to believe.  Sure, Terran christianity would not
>necessarily spread and dominate.  But I'm talking about its survival into
>the Mileu 0.
Survival into M:0, no doubt possible, although it wouldnt be found
anywhere near sylea!

>> > Is there any canon about the christianity from Terra?
>> Its still exists on Terra itself, but not as many followers there as
>> today (new influences from the outside changed many peoples worldview,
>> making them turn their back on organized religion) and some
>> Solomani-Colonized worlds where people settled that didt want to suffer
>> the loss of religion experienced elsewhere.

>Is this supported in canon materials?
I am not sure, i will see what Solomani and Aslan has!


>Based on some more thinking, and a suggestion from some private email on
>this topic, I'm considering having the organizing principle be worship of
>the Grandfather.  The teachings of the Grandfather would be considered to be
Strictly no, as the Grandfather theory hsnt been proposed in M:0. The
Droyne are not even known as a major race yet.

>revealed in the writings of such sophonts as Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, X of
>Vilani, Y of Sylea, and perhaps Z of Zhodane.  (Side point, if any one has
Teachings and writing of Grandfathers would be a find indeed. So far, no
one has made that find!

>environments, e.g., prohibition on pork due to trichinosis, water
>purification practices, circumsizion.etc.
Oh, the Vilani have very peculiar eating rules, traditions from their
home planet, where most food was indigestible (See Vilani and Vargr,
which i dont have myself)


> Lastly, I ain't got diddly squat on the Grandfather, so any info is welcome.
;-) For info on that, visit my web pages. It has everything you ever
wanted to know about the ancients (Well close)!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #165
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 166



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: new question of the week
Re: What CE means to me
Re: Sandcasters
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Best TML Acronym
Re: War Crimes
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: World War II (Off Topic) w/ a bit of Trav in it
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: 3D sectors
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Minor Human Homeworlds (Luriani)
Re: Character Names
Re: new question of the week
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: War Crimes
Plea for help!
Re: War Crimes
Re: Answers WAS Questions
Re: Passenger Liners

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:34:13 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> 
> In article <01BD3819.94D58140@HOMESTEAD.hartwick.edu>,
> "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:
> >Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
> >How can a measly Destroyer devastate a planet?
> >
> >The billions GDW killed off through attacks on civilian life-support
> >facilities during the Black War might be able to answer that question for
> >you.
> 
> Add the fact that a destroyer has enough power to accelerate a reasonably
> large rock at any planet, and to keep doing it if not challenged
> by other spacecraft.
> 
> -
> Frankie
> 
> Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:    frankie@mundens.gen.nz
> Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |         frankie@ibm.net
> New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
> 


Actually, it doesn't.  Those rocks are in orbit and in order to
alter their vectors you need to expend a lot of juice.  A friend
of mine did some research at Naval Postgrad school concerning
present day asteroid defense.  The verdict is available on the
web as the first listing under the "Asteroid Defense" subject (so he
says).  And what was that verdict you ask?  The verdict was:

We die.  All of us.

(If the rock is bigger than 100m across).  

All of the nukes humanity has ever made would stop a 1 km rock from
doing the nasty on the whole planet.  

Its a sad prospect.

In any case, I'm open to calculations.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:50:27 -0500
From: Tal Meta <talmeta@cybercomm.net>
Subject: Re: new question of the week

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         Okay it looks like my CD-project is going to be a go.
>         It should start being available at the end of this month 
>         or by mid-March.

Just in case I miss further messages in this vein, I'd like to be
included in any lists of interested receipients you may be keepimg. 

- -- 
talmeta@cybercomm.net - Former sysop / netgod, now 'net bum.
Do I look like someone who cares what GOD thinks?! / I have
no webpage. / Curiosity killed the cat... Loathesome rituals
BROUGHT IT BACK! / Will work for cash. / Insert Nifty ASCII
graphic here. / Give me Slack, or give me Food. TANJ Lives!
  <http://www.etext.org/Zines/ASCII/ThereAintNoJustice/>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:49:52 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: What CE means to me

>>How about instead of AM/PM we use SC/SG?  Sun Comming and Sun Going.
>>
>That make you a Sun worshipper then? IIRC the Christians spent quite a lot
>of energy in the early days stamping you lot out.
>
>-- Rupert Boleyn
>"If in doubt - wipe it out."

So umm, tell me Rupert, umm, does this .sig have anything to do with your
question.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:01:37 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

A soliton is a steady wave that does not vary, much like a pure tone.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:30:15 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

John Kovalic wrote:

>...and a group of Discordians praising Eris.

> ALL HAIL ERIS!!!!!!

Ah! Will you guys cut that out, you're giving me a swelled head.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:10:33 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Best TML Acronym

scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:
 
> And the prize for Best TML Acronym of 1998 goes to...
 
> Doug Berry, for IMTU (In My Traveller Universe)
 
> "IMTU, the Reserve Fleet for each Subsector is mostly support."
 
<clap!> <clap!> Hooray!  Way to go Doug!  You're my hero!

I intend to blatently imitate IMTU from now on.

Eris,
    IMTU I'm *still* a heretic

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:55:53 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

Hi Volker,

As I stated previously, I just don't see  apoint in continuing this
discussion.  We each have our philosophies of the way things should
be and how they are.  They differ and I can accept that.  I respect
your feelings in this matter though I differ with you in almost
every point.  As a soldier, I do not have the luxury of extending
the benefit of the doubt lest I fail in my duty to protect my people
and our way of life (whatever that is).

I can only say that I am committed (as is the US military) to guarding
our freedoms and I believe completely that Truman's decision to end
WWII was the correct one.  There may come a day that this deterrant is
the key to Amrica's survival.  Let us all hope that it will never come.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:28:21 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

> We die.  All of us.
> 
> (If the rock is bigger than 100m across).
> 
> All of the nukes humanity has ever made would stop a 1 km rock from
> doing the nasty on the whole planet.
> > -Dan


I believe that is "would not."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:49:23 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

> Lastly, I ain't got diddly squat on the Grandfather, so any info is welcome.
> 
> Bloo


Not to say mush about the Imperial Church,but as far as I know canon
purposfully avoids mention of such things so all GMs can do as they
please.

Grandfather is NOT known to anyone save the lucky individuals who
completed Secret of the Ancients.  That would be on the order of 10?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:41:04 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
> 
> > We die.  All of us.
> >
> > (If the rock is bigger than 100m across).
> >
> > All of the nukes humanity has ever made would stop a 1 km rock from
> > doing the nasty on the whole planet.
> > > -Dan
> 
> I believe that is "would not."


Oh...yeah..."would not"...that's what I meant. :)


- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:57:47 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic) w/ a bit of Trav in it

> I don't mean to get nasty, Volker, but how many Soviets and Jews died directly
> in WWII?  About 26 Million all told.  Why you'd want to even discuss this topic
> is beyond me.  I apologize for even reading this thread and will have no more to
> do with it.
> 
> Bloo


The fact that people find these topics painful is a bit of evidence we
have grown up.  Personally I think there is nothing wrong with thinking
the bombing of Hiro was evil, but then everything about war is.

The Germans have lived with 50 years of the rest of the wolrd badgering
them.  It wasn't Volkers war but it is his responsibilty to prevent
another, as it is all of ours. One way to do that is respect other folks
right to live as they will as long as it doesn't hurt others.

I feel bad for what we did, but given circumstances I would personally
drop it.  And I have been in the "no shit" situation I had to make those
decisions.  Am I evil?  

Well, I love the potential the human race has but am less than satisfied
with the current status.  That is why I am going to such great lengths
to detail the Rebellion and military operations in it.  Don't like the
idea of obeying orders and killing millions for an "objective?"  Then
put your money where your mouth is and get hanged.  

There are never easy answers in a grey and painful world.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:46:58 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> 
> Andrew Boulton schrieb:
> 
> > ISTR French land-based nuclear missiles have (had?) a fairly short range -
> > just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!
> Yes, i know! Anyway the war would have worked out, we would have been
> screwed had it come down to the use of nukes. Had it not, Germany would
> still have been the main battleground, screwing us all the same. But
> hey, at least the rest of the world remained free.
> ObTrav: Somehow this reminds me of the later stages of the Rebellion
> wars, when friendly worlds were devastated by both sides (Attacker and
> defender) in either way not allowing the enemy not to get/keep control
> over vital resources. This goes to show that alliances are best for
> those at the center of it as these Countries/Worlds only loose those
> resources they are willing to commit, while the frontiers get beaten up
> and bombed back into stone-age (Wilds)!


And yet despite this rationality, somehow it all worked out.  Or is
there a smoking glowing crater where Germany used to be.  One can
dream all they want, but the fact is that for now, the strategy of
the West worked and we won the Cold War without turning Europe into
a glass parking lot.

Amazing how these things turn out, more or less according to our 
intentions, that is.

My brother and I have both been to Germany, have roots in Germany,
and did not want THAT happen TO Germany, yet if it had to happen
somewhere, we would have rather it happened elsewhere other than our own
home.

This isn't cynical, it is practical.  The US stood by Europe
throuighout the Cold War where we could have turned isolationist.
Yes, the price of Europe's "freedom" was  its potential 
annihilation, a terrible cost.  Yet it was the only way.  
And it worked.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:07:13 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D sectors

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> Hey Deadeye, (and all the rest that are working on 3D mapping),
> 
> I have an idea for how you might be able to model the sectors in 3D.
> Someone else suggested using wire and beads, and that's what I suggesting as
> well, but with a difference.  You would mount the wires between 2 folding
> boards.  The ends could be set in such a way that they would swivel so that
> the boards could be closed up and carried.
> 
> Let's see if I can show you what I mean.
> 
> ==========o==========
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
> ==========o==========
> 
>  \\          //
>  |\\        //|
>  ||\\      //||
>  |||\\    //|||
>  ||||\\o//||||
>  |||||     |||||
>  |||||    |||||
>  |||||   |||||
> \\||||   ||||//
>  \\|||   |||//
>   \\||   ||//
>    \\|   |//
>     \\o//
> 
> Well, maybe you get the idea anyway.  When folded out, you could even use a
> tape measure to measure the distance between systems.  Well, what do you
> think?


I think this is a great idea but unwieldy for mass production.  Kind of
like a pop up book, eh?  VEry interesting.

Did you see my post on the 3D glasses?  How does everyone think that
would work or is it cornball?

My personal goal is a rotating computer display in conjunction with a
printer, ultrahigh res isometric map showing the systems and data. 
Lightwave can do this but it takes time to build the models.  The result
would be a lot like chview but MUCH higher resolve, to the point that I
could build in planetary systems and surface the displayed world with
continents.

That is down the road aways, though.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:50:31 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

Stephen Johnson wrote:


>    At what proof is a distilate going to be liable to ignite?  Will it
just
>burn or is it gonna be an explosive (ie. very fast combustion) burn?
>
>    More to the point how in the heck would you use a high proof distilate
to
>make something like a fuel air bomb?
>
>    Any other ideas for the use of distilling and such for purposes of
warfare?
>
>    I have faith in the ability of all the science and engineering types to
>come up with a plethora of nasty and inventive uses for this stuff.  I just
>want to have some warning of what to expect before my players spring them
on me
>Next Session. ;)
>
>    Many thanks in advance,
>
>Stephen

Well, Stephen, sounds like you have a typical group of players.  As to the
fuel potential of alcohol, I'll tell you what my old University roommate, a
post graduate chemistry student, told me.  He said that the proof of alcohol
was comparable to the octane of petroleum fuels.  A 90 proof alcohol will
run your car just as well as 90 octane gasoline.  You can fly a prop plane
on it and a jet will fly on 110 without any problem.

Using pure (no petrochemicals) alcohol in an engine designed for petroleum
fuels will shorten the life of an engine by about 0.3%.  I believe that I
read here a while back that one of the French port towns are running their
ferries on cheap wine (probably 58 proof).

I don't know how to make fuel bombs, but as for the Molotov  cocktails, 80
or 90 proof alcohol will work just fine.  Stuff a rag in a bottle half full
and light it.  The burning cloth will heat the bottle.  The bottle will heat
the alcohol.  The alcohol will boil.  The steam will ignite explosively.
The explosion will spread the flaming alcohol everywhere.

Lots of nice pretty flames and much destruction.

I used to make my players do the research on anything they wanted to do that
was not in the rules.  They had to prove to me that what ever they wanted to
do was equivalent to something in the game.

Good luck.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:04:34 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Frank Pitt wrote:

>Add the fact that a destroyer has enough power to accelerate a reasonably
>large rock at any planet, and to keep doing it if not challenged
>by other spacecraft.

And let's not forget that it can _easily_ suppress piracy out to the
100-diameter limit, while also serving as a host for Virus infection.
Furthermore, "destroyer" is spelled with seven different letters and
"Templar is also spelled with seven.  Ergo, destroyer-class warships are
fronts for Templar activities.  Finally, a destroyer could launch bacterial
aerosols into the atmosphere, against which non-Solomani populations would
have no resistance and succumb to in short order.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:04:39 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Minor Human Homeworlds (Luriani)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>May I suggest as the Luriani Homeworld:
>
>Derri/Fornast 2316 B76AAA8-C   Hi Wa 720 Im K0 V (in 1120)
>
>Allowing for up to 5% of the world's surface to be land, it gives a
>land area of 19,704,069Km2 (roughly 2.5 Australia's, or 2 Canada's or
>China's; or plenty of land to start with). Assuming a large number of
>Islands this gives an interesting martime culture. Give me a day or
>three and I'll come up with a rough on their culture

I'm waiting with bated breath <G>.

What do you think about perhaps making them be aquatic or semi-aquatic?
Could be another of Grandfather's kids' more outre' Homo-experiments.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:04:45 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Character Names

Jeff Zeitlin wrote up a great bit on Vilani naming customs for the TravLang
list a few months ago... Jeff, if you have it handy, it'd be great to see
it again -- my hard drive is even messier than my desktop, or I could do it
myself...

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:10:13 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: new question of the week

Byran;

Is the CD worth getting for me? I have only CT, and will get T4.1

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:04:03 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

Chris,
Igenerally try to stay out of the crying jags abot IG, but I must beg to
differ with YOU. Your statements make it seem that Trav has gone from
publisher to publisher like some rag-a-muffin. To the best of my knowledge,
spanning the 20 years of its existance, barring a couple of monthes,
Traveller has been put out by TWO, count 'em, Two publishing companies.
Digest Group WAS NOT the primary publisher, at that time Trav still carried
the GDW brand.

IMHO this is not such a bad record. Show me another GAME that has lasted for
20 years! (That atrocity with dwarves and elves not withstanding) that
HASN't changed hands!

Heck, if it comes to it I have a few connections to printers through my
wife's art business. How 'bout it Marc, if you need T4.1 printed I think it
can be arranged! ( However I place this whole thing as THE ANNUAL FEBUARY
IG"S GOING UNDER PANIC, that usually follows the annual Febuary Flame
Feast!)

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!


>I beg to differ.
>
>Traveller is in trouble if IG demises. Without a publisher other than SJG,
>it is not likely there will be an independent set of Traveller mechanics in
>print. There will therefore be a lack of support.
>
>I think you are being naive to the reality of the business world if you
>believe Marc Miller can keep lining up investors for a game that has
>repeatedly failed over the short term. Anyone who does their homework will
>see that more established games have had much greater longevity than almost
>any of the editions of Traveller.
>
>This is not to say that some crazed fool won't ignore these facts and
>finance a fifth edition of the game anyway. But it grows increasingly
>unlikely with each failure of the game to stand on its own two feet.
>
>Traveller hasn't failed because it isn't great. It wouldn't have such a
>loyal following if it didn't. But most of the market isn't as patient,
>forgiving or loyal as the members of the TML.
>
>My guess is we'll have to be content with the materials published by SJG.
>Not an entirely bad scenario especially when you consider that Loren
>Wiseman is the editor. But a little piece of the game dies when it ceases
>to have its own mechanics system.
>
>Best,
>
>Chris Griffen
>
>===================================================
>Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.
>
>http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:31:29 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

>IMHO this is not such a bad record. Show me another GAME that has lasted for
>20 years! (That atrocity with dwarves and elves not withstanding) that
>HASN't changed hands!

Well, actually T$R is now owned by WOC.  Taking a quick look at my
collection the only other game I can think of to be around that long is
"Empire of the Petal Throne", it's had three different sets of rules, and I
won't even try to figure out how many publishers.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:58:22 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Interesting. Sounds a little like 18th. Century Enlightenment-Jeffersonian
Deism. It might be workable, but it would be blasphemous to devout Christians,
Muslims, and  Jews. (If anyone in your group is one of the above, go easy).
This does lead to the interesting conflict between this Deist religion, and
more "traditional" ones in the Traveller realm (though I don't know how canon
would treat this).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:27:51 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

For a moment, I too succumbed to the temptation to permit emotional
content of anger tinge my judgmenent and ability to respond to this
discussion and offering of opinion.  However, I let it pass.
  Having said that much above, let me state this for the record:

1.5 million service men were not "soldiers".  They are Human beings.  Of
those who survived, many of them fathered children that Japanese Soldiers
would have killed stillborn (without even had the chance of being
concieved of) had America continued to fight the war.  By this, I mean
that by killing the fathers, the Japanese soldiers were also guilty of
murdering "future civilians" yet unborn.

  I find it reprehensible that that anyone should find the chutzpah within
themselves to cast judgement upon anyone of that timeperiod who were faced
with the decision "how do I bring this to an end".  Ethically?  His job
was to protect the american Citizens - not some Island who initated a war
with his nation.  He owed nothing to the Japanese civilians, but
everything to his own people, and that my friend, is exactly what he did,
protected 1.5 million soldiers. 
  Even if President Truman didn't need to send in even one soldier, and
outwait the Japanese - do you think his obligation to even one soldier
would have been less to drop that bomb?

  Put this another way - if your birth had depended upon your father's
surviving the war, and it was such that only your father would have died
had President Truman decided to use your recommendations - would you feel
that your father did not deserve to live?  Would you feel that you do not
deserve to live?  And finally, assuming that you have a son or daughter -
would they not have deserved to live?  And that is only based upon *1*
man!

  Well, enough said.  If I was unable to convince you of the error of your
thinking from my perspective, and I *strongly* believe you are not only
incorrorect in your assessment, but unjust as well, then nothing I say now
or can say, will cause you to reassess your viewpoint.  Good night...

     Respectfully,
       Hal

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:12:49 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Plea for help!

Well I've just been informed that my ISP is changing it's domain name. So
any flames etc. should now go to Letterworks@CITNET.COM  . My question is
what is the easiest way to change all these @$%%% mailing lists over to the
new address? Do I need to disconnect and reconnect under the new name or is
there an easier way. I've been told that the old name will be good for a few
days so any help will be happily appriciated. If I do need to reconnect cna
some one pass the sign-up adresses for the following back to me.

ISBA (Both)
Trav-Tech List
TML
The CD-project List

I didn't think I'd need them so I never kept them around.

Thanks
Mike Peters
Letterowrks@... unh oh
Letterworks@Citnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:26:40 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: War Crimes

Because there won't be a world left if its the
> > US that is attacked.
> I hope you (Americans) are not as stupid as that..."Duh, were dead meat
> anyway, lets take the rest of the planet with us!". If this is the
> general feeling, there is something very rotten in the core of your
> country! Sorry, but thats how i see an attitude like that!
> --


I think he is reffering to the fortress US surrounded by oceans idea-if
the US is directly attacked the world will have been in a bad state for
a long time, as our carefully constructed alliance system will be gone
and we have nothing else to turn to.

Nevertheless, all the diplomacy in the world won't stop someone who is
inimical to your interests. As a soldier with these responsibilities I
now the US has a graduated response.  But the nasty nuke IS and WILL
always be in our order of battle(personal aquiantance), and everyone
knows it.  Nuff said.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:02:24 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Answers WAS Questions

Dom wrote:

>QSDS - maximum acceleration is 6G - p108 T4

Oh, yea, I forgot.  Being a gearhead, I tend to forget that there is a
QSDS.

>SSDS and FFS2 don't appear to have limits on the acceleration, but I've
>only just started to use them so I missed that one. Mea Culpa...

Don't feel to bad, I forgot the limitations of QSDS and I've had T4-1 much
longer than I've had FF&S2  or CSC.

>Oh for a T4 High Guard....

Why not make your own?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:47:25 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Passenger Liners

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
 
> In a frantic attempt to counteract the religious debate through diversion,
> I offer up another question.

In an equally frantic attempt to support you I'll answer! ;->
 
> For the economists on the list: Are really big passenger liners
> economically feasable? I am talking like in the 300,000+ ton range, like
> the QE2 in space. 

IMTU, (told everybody I was going to steal it ;-) you couldn't build
jump ships that large...even warships...but if you *could* then you
should benefit from a number of economies of scale.  

>Given the fact that it costs approximately a year's  salary to go off-world, would you >be able to fill such a liner to capacity enough that it would recoup it's costs?

With liners that large, the cost of passage might be (should be)
considerably lower. If three times as many people use facilities while
the cost to provide those facilities only double, the line should be
able to cut ticket prices by a quarter and still earn a higher profit.

There would be a fixed cost associated with building/running/paying for
a ship *and* a number of variable costs that go up or down depending on
your passenger/cargo/freight loads. Large ships should be able to spread
these costs out across larger "loads" hence lowering unit costs and
still making the same profit as smaller ships. 

One of the things we don't do well in Traveller economic rules is handle
the curves. Supply, demand, cost, etc are all curves, not generally
straight lines, and have you ever heard a Traveller player/gm/poster
talk about elasticity? ;->

Eris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #166
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 167



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: War Crimes
Hexmap program we could use for BR Online. (fwd)
Re: Alcohol proof
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)
OT| WWII
Julian Protectorate
GG Refueling (was Belters and mining)
Re: OT: Ringworld idea
Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products
OT| WWII
Re: Water Canopy
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: TNS on GURPS site
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #120
Re: Nukes and nuking
Re: The Evil Empire
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Warfare

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 06:34 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: War Crimes

Moin Volker A. Greimann,

	it doesn't make sense to compare numbers of megadeath.

	War is based on murder, looting and rape. Its a crime regardless
	weather it was done with a sword or a nuke, regardless weather
	Greeks took slaves or Germans slayed Jews. Any legal right any
	country on this world claims about its citizen is based on
	the blood and crime of the last centuries. The politicians with
	their permanent desire of increasing their personal powers are
	in my opinion guilty in any sense. They inherit all the sins
	of their predecessor in office and add their own to the bag.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 04:56 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Hexmap program we could use for BR Online. (fwd)

Moin Jonathan A Goff,

> Hope this helps.  In fact, we could possibly have someone do up some
> basic tiny bitmaps on a windoze program.  Of course, I typically use
> Unix, but the Unix is hooked into a windozzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeeeeeee
> system I could use.  Thoughts?

	Sending bitmaps is bad for response, compare the hexmap (an applet)
	and the worldmaps in my 3rd-survey. The first one is an applet,
	about 16kb in size, doing the work of displaying. the protocol
	between the applet and the cgi server is "optimised" to transpher
	only important informations, and not the complete gal files.
	The second one is a gif produced by a c program generating fractals,
	the fractal's random generator is initialised by 
		Size/10+Atmos/100+Hyrdo/1000+Position/10000
	so the complete world does'nt take an extra bit of space ;-)
	The decission to take an applet (take a while to load but can reduce
	bandwidth later) for the hexmap in one viewer and to use a gif (C
	is of course faster than java, and fractals produce load) in the
	other, and wraping html around was important for speeding it up.

	If you are using Unix, drop me a note, I'll send you a lot of
	perl&awk stuff, e.g. a start of a game server, and you can ask
	me of how to get it up and running. perhaps the thing will even
	get some documentation on the fly.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:11:09 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Alcohol proof

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:


>Flamethrowers? Hook a steam engine driven pump to a supply of flammable
>liquid and hose down your opponents. Great fun when the fuel tank is
>accidentally set on fire.

Actually, you don't need anything so complicated as a steam engine.  Just
design a small boiler close to the pilot flame that boils a small amount of
the fuel to create a back pressure.

As for catching the hoses on fire, all I can say is, Hans you are one
sadistic so and so.  I like it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:24:41 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Shadow wrote:

>Which is one of the reasons that a *lot* of folks think it'd be a good
>idea to detach the Warthogs from the Air Force and give them to the
>Army. The AF just barely tolerates them (if it hadn't been for Desert
>Storm, the AF would have replaced them with some hi-tech fighters that
>had a "ground attack mode") and serving in them doesn't do your career
>much good.

I've always thought that it was kinda weird that the army was the only
branch that didn't have any air presence, especially since the USAF used to
be the US Army Air Corps before they were separated off into their own
branch.  I believe that the army is actually prevented from have air units
by the same legal language that established the USAF.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:53:30 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)

Deadeye wrote:

>Actually the Ghurkas are pretty much the all time nail eaters.
>Royal Marines are reputed to be just as good if not better than the
>average US Marine.

This reminded me of a story I heard out of W.W.II.  It seems that some
Ghurkas were going to take part in an airborne assault.  When told that they
were going to be dropped from 500', the leader apparently looked somewhat
embarrassed and explained that his men were not afraid, but he asked, would
it be possible to get them down to 200' before the drop.  The coordinator
explained that from 200' a parachute would not have time to deploy.  The
Ghurkas leader looked puzzled and asked what a parachute was.

The person relating this story to me said that the leader was worried that
some of his men might not survive a 500' drop.  But that a drop from 200'
was survivable for all of them.  It seems he didn't want to lose anyone
before they landed.  Once parachutes were explained, he seems a little
disappointed.  They however used them and were amazing in the air and even
more amazing on the ground.

I have used this idea in Traveller to good effect.  You should see the look
on a player's face when he figures out that the NPC's were planning to jump
without "visible means of support".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 17:41:38 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: OT| WWII

On 02/13/98 at 08:58 PM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>>PS-I know the sneak attack wasn't intentional, but did anybody know
>>(or _care_) in 1945?

I'd like to make a couple of points here.  First, the Japanese *did* want
their attack on Pearl Harbor to be a surprise attack, and calling it a
sneak attack isn't an insult.  Second, the Japanese also wanted their
declaration of war to precede the attack as a matter of form, and perhaps
honor, but not far enough in advance to allow the US to step up their
defenses before Pearl or the Philippines were hit.

>I very much doubt they cared, but I'm pretty sure they knew, because the
>Japanese diploamtic cipher was broken, and they were reading the messages
>as fast as the Japanese Embassy.

There is considerable historical debate about what the US government knew
and when they knew it.  Yes, the diplomatic cipher had been broken, but
translation wasn't even close to an exact science.  IMO, it's unlikely the
US *knew* the attacks on Pearl or the Philippines were going to take place
on December 7th, I don't think that would have been transmitted to the
Embassy IAC, but it is virtually certain (based on subsequent study) that
the US expected a Japanese attack to take place against US assets
somewhere..in the next few weeks.

As far as reading "messages as fast as the Japanese Embassy" it's possible
the people at State were reading them even faster.  I understand the
Embassy couldn't use their normal translators or typists, so they took
*far* longer deciphering the messages on 12/7 than normal.

Although the message to the Embassy did tell the Ambassador to make an
ultimatum the US would reject and then break off relations in preparation
for war, the messages to the Embassy, didn't pin point the target or time
of attack.  Frankly, I don't know if this is fact or fiction but the image
I have is the Japanese Ambassador being kept waiting in the Secretary of
State's outer office with a declaration of war in his briefcase until the
attack on Pearl had taken place and news of it had been radioed back to the
US.  An act of gamesmanship.

Now, about the bomb.  I'm sorry all those innocent people died, ALL the
innocents, whether from the A bombs, the conventional bombings (on all
sides), the submarine warfare, artillery, small arms fire, prison camps,
and all other ways.  I'm glad the US didn't have to invade the japanese
islands, causing a million or more deaths.  What Roosevelt, Churchill and
Truman ordered was not evil, what Hitler and Tojo ordered was, and that's
all I have to say about it.


Eris,
    notice I didn't mention Stalin.  When the pantheon of evil in the
    20th century is recorded he'll make the top 10, along with Pol Pot,
    Mao Tse Tung, Saddam Hussan and whoever was behind the genocide of
    the Ibo and Tutsi/Hutu peoples...IMO.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 17:44:08 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Julian Protectorate

On 02/13/98 at 09:30 PM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>>>Likewise they let the Julian Protectorate go, and never even tried to get
>>>it back, even though it was part of both the 1st and the 2nd Imperiums.
>>>This permanantly blocked coreward expansion.

Is there a background book on the Julian Protectorate or JOTAS articles? I
don't recall ever reading much about it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 18:00:53 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: GG Refueling (was Belters and mining)

On 02/13/98 at 12:28 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

>>I have read numerous statements to the effect that refuelling at a gas
>>giant is a bad idea. I assume this is because it takes a lot of resources
>>to get to a gas giant, which in turn garners you more cost than just buying
>>the dang fuel at regular prices.

>No, that's not it. What it costs you is time. Several days at least.
>Instead of jumping directly to the mainworld where you can deliver your
>freight and passengers and (hopefully) get a new load, you jump to the Gas
>Giant. 

I'd say you are correct in *most* cases.  However, ships in transit through
a system, those that don't expect to visit the mainworld of a system for
whatever reason, *may* lower time in system and costs by refueling at a GG.

IMTU, a commercial ship jumping into a system comes in about midway between
the habital zone and the most likely GG orbits.  If the system has a
mainworld worth visiting the ship heads in-system, if it doesn't the ship
heads out-system.  M class stars, in particular, don't have much in the way
of habital mainworlds, but they might have thriving bases around a GG
providing fuel, resupply, recreation and repair.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:14:56 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: OT: Ringworld idea

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:06:23 -0600, Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC wrote:

> Doug:
> 
> > The is a Ringworld in the Vargr Extents, left unfinished.  Evidently,
> which
> > ever kid/grandkid was working in the area had a thing for mega-projects,
> as
> > there is also a multi-world rosette out there in doggie space.
> 
> Turning Rover into a sapient is definitely a MEGA-project.  Why is it that
> the only geneered races (that I've come across) are major ones?  Or is that
> there are just enough racial variations without mucking about in DNA-land
> (or are they so far from what we could identify as 'originals' that we -
> Imperials - wouldn't know the difference)?

Ah-hah!  I knew buying "Aliens Archive" would come in handy.  One race--
the Tekundu-- are of homo sapiens stock, and are said to have been
transplanted 100,000 years ago.  At least one other race shows no fossil
evidence of existing on their "native" planet beyond 500,000 years ago,
leading the speculation that the Ancients had *something* to do with their
existence.  There also at least two other races in Aliens Archive that
point the reader more in the direction of "geneering" than natural
evolution.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:14:54 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products

On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:06:41 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 09:15 AM 2/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >Hi All,
> 
> >For fans in the US, the low cost of each book (about $7-8) means that it's
> >not very efficient to mail order it from us (air mail costs a lot!). We are
> >investigating the possibility of 'proper' distribution in the US, but this
> >process has been held up because of a lack of contact currently with IG
> >(California). Of course, it may be possible for some US FLGS's to order
> >direct from Esdevium or Hobby Games in the UK. If anyone has any contacts
> >in the business, please get in touch.
> 
> Would be easier if I ordered all of them at once, to be mailed in bulk?

Or perhaps two (or more) such order requests, to be distributed from a
single US or Canadian address (hint, hint)?




James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 19:01:31 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: OT| WWII

On 02/13/98 at 03:41 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
said:

>I don t say the US should have just contained the Japanese, but Nuking
>two cities was a little over the top.

Maybe, but after the "Rape of Nanking", the "Bataan Death March", the
lesson of the Kamikaze, the discoveries earlier that year of the German run
death camps (with rumors of equally egregious Japanese atrocities in China,
Korea, and Indo-china), and the suicidal resistance of the Japanese on
Okinawa...maybe not.

>Just do the math: How many lives were saved by those nukes? Substract the
>loss of life, direct and indirect, that was caused by the bombs. The
>result is negative, thus the use of the bombs was an evil thing to do.

Wrong, Volker. 

The Americans JCS didn't think the Japanese would surrender without
receiving a severe *shock* and believed that delivering those bombs could
be that shock.  We didn't know how devastating they would be when we used
them.  We absolutely didn't know about the long-term effects of radiation
exposure.  These were bombs, really big bombs, but until we actually *saw*
their effects on the ground after the war they were just big bombs.

As for lives lost, the two A bombs killed, directly, less that the
conventional bombing attacks on Tokyo, under one hundred thousand, and
indirectly, simply doesn't count.  If we'd known about the long term
effects, yes, but we didn't.

IAC, the total deaths, direct and indirect, comes to less than ONE TENTH of
the expected casualties of the US invading the Japanese Home Islands. If
the Japanese had resisted in the *they*, and we, expected, Volker, a ground
assault was expected to cause up to a million US casualties, with Japanese
casualties much, much, MUCH higher.  We are seriously talking about an
additional four to five *million* deaths, Volker.  

OTOH, this number still smaller than the outright murders committed by the
Japanese and German empires on innocent non-combatants during the war.  So,
if you want to talk about evil let's talk about the conscious, considered,
knowing genocide practiced by the German and Japanese governments with the
complicity of their citizens.

No, on second thought, let's NOT talk about it.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 19:15:28 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Water Canopy

On 02/13/98 at 05:03 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Alas, while a nice idea, this doesn't work either. Whgile the bottom of
>the Med *has* been dry in the past, the most recent time was long before
>man was on the scene. Something like 600 thousand years ago. 

>The Med was nicely filled with water during the more recent Ice Ages.

Gee, that's what I *thought* I knew. ;->

>The explanation for the flood myth is pretty simple. They originated with
>the Assyrians and Babylonians. Who just happened to live ion a wide flat
>plain between a *pair* of rivers!

>Other cultures with flood myths also lived in areas that flood.

Actually, there are a number of other flood myths from other cultures, but
the explanation is probably similar.

There was an interesting Analog serial a few years ago set in an alterverse
where the Med basin remained dry and Neanderthals survived as a sub-genus
to current times.  The plot revolved around a tour of the basin and an
attempt to plant a baby nuke against the Gibraltar plug, blowing it open
and flooding the basin.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:36:43 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:20:32 +1300, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the country
>was paralysed by the refugees, and they couldn't sort out what terms (if
>any) they would try for and get in touch with the US before the second bomb
>was dropped. IMO three days was too little time. How long would the US have
>taken to make up its mind in similar circumstances?

I read an account of a member of a Japanese peace faction that
had trouble getting across the point that this meant Japan had
to surrender until the second bomb was dropped.

However, this is irrelevant.  The US wanted to make Japan think
that they had a lot of bombs to spare by dropping the second one
right away so that they would feel more pressure to surrender.
I don't see any reason why the US had to gamble that Japan would
realise that the US only had a few bombs and end up wasting them
and having to waste a large number of human lives to spare Japan
the kind of tatics (bombing civilian targets) that it had already
been willing to inflict on others in a war Japan initiated.

The US strategy was reasonable way to end the war with as few
US casualties as possible and without needlessly wasting even
enemy lives.   Sure other ways might have worked.  But they
might not have.  If the US put first its own interest in save US
GI's lives, that was only it's right as a victim of aggression.
The US was under no obligation to sacrifice itself to spare Japan
from the consequences of the war it chose to start.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:43:08 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: TNS on GURPS site

Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:01:01 -0500, Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>

>I really love the subtlety of the radio commentary, e.g., "Free Trader
>Beowulf . .  . Come in, Beowulf . . . "  IT really is spooky when you
>take the link to read the other side of the conversation on the Free
>Trader Beowulf site.  Ok, I'm hooked.  I'll be buying all the Gurps
>stuff (thats worth buying) as well as all the T4.1 stuff.  I really
>really hope and pray that either or both versions will ressurect the
>Mercenary and High Guard Chargen stuff.

I'm sorry but every comment I've seen has said that GURPS Traveller
will use GURPS character creation.  However, since there are
conversion notes there is nothing to stop you from making up
characters with any chargen system you want just converting them.

Or you could make up similar system for GURPS Taveller.  Heck you
could get a bunck of people togother to make it up and post it
to the semi-official archive.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:22:03 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

(No arguing over the Bomb here, honest.)

The comments about how the Air Force doesn't like remarkably useful craft
  like the A-10 because it's not "sexy" are familiar to me (and I have to
  agree, we should revive the Army Air Corps for the all important close-
  support; that or merge the services, and wouldn't that put the brass in
  a tizzy?); but I got a chuckle out of the comment that our modern Knights
  of the Air were also quite put out by the number of SAMs in Soviet
  service, and how vulnerable their sleek multi-million-dollar fighters
  were to a thousand-dollar missile.

See, I have an SCA background, and I know from experience that, whenever
  possible, the heavy infantry ban the light infantry missile troops from
  the field.  They hate putting on their armor and tromping out onto the 
  war field for some good fun and head-bashing, only to get picked off 
  quickly by some "untrained", unarmored yokel with a javelin or bow.  
  Sound familiar?

(I gather this was also pretty much the attitude of the real knights, back
  when missile weapons that could be effective against an armored man
  started being carried by peasant levies...)

I guess it's universal... no doubt in the future, we'll have Imp BD troops
  grousing about "cheap" TL8 snipers with Crunch Guns.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair        "But that's not fair, he spent less on his gear 
kellys@efn.org         than I did!"
                      "Yeah, well, you're still dead."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 02:12:40 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

Actually, I believe that Everclear is either 190 or 195 proof.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 03:26:26 EST
From: Haegen@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #120

Does anyone know of some Traveller rules that apply specifically to planetary
bombardment?  I have a limited library of Traveller.  That is, CT books 0-5 ,
Marc Miller's Traveller and Milieu-0.  It seems to me that plantetary or
system combat beyond just ship to ship, is the most important part of
conquering a resistant or rebellious system.  The easiest part of taking a new
system would be taking out the local militia. Whereas on a planet you have
things like planetary defence systems. You can make these very large (spinal
mounts dirtside) and armour or sheild them heavily. This of course takes for
granted that the world has the funds for such things. A halfway decent world
can handle a few "dropped" marines with a few y or x guns.  
Not only that would an invader need to bring air support to the system to be
conquered.  Streamlined fighters might have a hard time against good
atmospheric fighters that are oriented towards that purpose. Not only this
,but a  good space station or two could fend off even large capital ships very
effectively ,given the proper ordinance.  In summation , if you were trying to
take a system how would you do it?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 03:37:40 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nukes and nuking

>> never arises again.  Because there won't be a world left if its the
>> US that is attacked.
>I hope you (Americans) are not as stupid as that..."Duh, were dead meat
>anyway, lets take the rest of the planet with us!". If this is the
>general feeling, there is something very rotten in the core of your
>country! Sorry, but thats how i see an attitude like that!

    In a nuclear world, that's the only proper response.   That's the only
deterent to its use.  If nukes are used against a nuclear power, one can bet
they'll repond in kind.   Just a question of where and when.  It's not stupid
at all, it's just a fact.  I wouldn't kiss the whole world goodbye, but a good
portion of the attacking nation.  If say, Russia decided to nuke me, and I was
the US, i wouldn't necessarily nuke China or Iraq just cause i have spare
bombs. : )
     Nukes are nasty business... the genie's out of the bottle.  Not much of a
way to get it back in. 
     Ob trav.  What's to prevent some of the worlds in the 3I, notably
balkanized worlds, from going crazy and nuking each other silly?  These would
be interdicted, no?  But would any efforts be made to decapitate or scalp the
nuclear capabilities? Wouldn't this require near permanent stationing of
"weapons inspectors?"

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 03:37:45 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Evil Empire

Rupert wrote:

>>I don't recall whether or not the Melieu 0 fans were those who found TNE
>>morally dubious, but I hope not because for all the looting and
>>decapitation raids the Coalition did, at least they honestly thought it
>>was for the good of the wilds populations,

Eris wrote:

>Yeah, that's what they *want* you to believe. The looting and murders were
>looting and murder, and it was for the good of the people back in the RC,
>and that's the way I saw it. That viewpoint was peeking out of the corners
>of the TNE books and needs to be presented as an alternative opinion, if
>for no other reason than to stimulate debate.

Most of the "looting and murdering" were done by the less scrupulous of the
RCES freelancers who are stated to be pirates for all intents and purposes.
It isn't my doubt that the RC would crack down on them if they become aware of
allegations.  If these aren't provable, it's not any more than Guild
propaganda, though i'd bet an allegation is enough to warrant a covert
observation from the RCES.

>>...whereas in Cleon's New Galaxy Order something is good if it profits the
>>Imperium.
>
>If it profited Cleon and his family, you mean. But Cleon WAS the
>Imperium...just ask him ;->...so what was good for Cleon was good for the
>Imperium was good for the galaxy.
>
>>Sure they talk about long term good and leaving worlds to rule themselves,
but >>that only applies when they have joined the 3I (often because it's
destroyed >>their economies stability) and it would cost money to run them
directly.
>
>The RCEC were grubby little looters clawing to the top over the bodies of
>all those Wilders they stole from and killed. Better to deal with honest
>Reavers who admit what they are. The Third Imperium, in the final analysis,
>wasn't any better...read the dirty details in Milieu 0.

Not all of em (or nearly a large fraction... scarceley a small fraction
according to canon) were Reavers.  Some were.  The Coalition was the people
that made it up.  Some bad, some good, some indifferent and some plain evil.
I'd say the "evil and bad" aren't more than a small small minority.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:57:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

 
> IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the country
> was paralysed by the refugees, and they couldn't sort out what terms (if

I didn't know the people of Japan had anything to do with decisions
involving the war, I thought that they were run by an oligarchy, not
democracy (or even republic).

> any) they would try for and get in touch with the US before the second bomb
> was dropped. IMO three days was too little time. How long would the US have
> taken to make up its mind in similar circumstances?

They were told *before* either bomb was dropped to surrender. They
chose not to. Bad move.

BTW, they tried to get the Soviets to work with them for terms
(since they didn't want the only terms we would ever
accept--unconditional surrender) and the Soviets told them to take a
walk since they planned on getting a piece of the pie at that point.

As for what we would do--I guess we'll know when we are in that
position (remind the folks in hell to buy ice skates when this is
about to happen).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:30:50 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Warfare

Warfare is a terrible, horrible business. The death and pointless suffering
defy explanation and solution.

Yet our stupid species continues behaving in ways that make some wars
'necessary' in order to avoid certain consequences for the mass of citizens
of what we strangely like to call 'nations'. 

Nations? There's only one humanity.

Yet we fight each other. Sometimes both sides have a good reason (to them)
for fighting. Sometimes one side behaves with such barbarity that their
defeat is deemed necessary for the common good. Whatever.

So we fight each other. That's clever of us.

And when we fight, we use our weapons. Whatever they may be, from sharp
rock to nuke or biotoxin, we use them to achieve whatever end we had in
mind when we started fighting - usually making the other lot stop fighting.

There are no clear-cut and simple answers. There is no moral right and
wrong. There is simply a big unholy mess in which we make our decisions and
try to do what we think is best for the little bit we are responsible for.
In an imperfect world that's all we can do - there's a limit to what I can
assume responsibility for. I can't stop the other side from killing my
friends and bombing my parents' house without killing some of them. If I
hold a command position, I have to take responsibility for authorising
bombing raids or whatever, that might kill innocents. But I have to choose
between doing that or trying to take the city by infantry assualt (or
whatever). Which carries its own consequences.

There are no easy answers. I will be judged as both right and wrong by
history. But I must make a decision. Use nuclear weapons or face assaulting
an island chain defended by people willing to use Kamikazi and Sleeping
Dragon? No easy option.
 
There is no difference between firebombing Tokyo (or Dresden) and dropping
a nuclear device on Nagasaki. There is no difference between using phosgene
in the trenches and crushing men under the trreads of tanks or
machine-gunning survivors in the water after sinking a troopship. There is
no difference between torpeding an unarmed freighter without warning and
nursing an injured man back to health before shooting him as a spy.

None of these things are 'morally right' - ever.

But we do them because they are sometimes necessary in our way of life.

Instead of wrangling about what's right and what's not, consider this:

We, as people, put others in charge over us. They lead us to war and we
carry out despicable acts in the name of freedom, justince or whatever -
some of these acts in my opinion ENTIRELY NECESSARY and I'm bloody glad
someone carried them out, by the way, because my life is quite pleaseant as
a result.

The single answer is to realise this - the only morally right thing to do
about war is to forget the closed-cycle arguments about what's rigjht and
what's not, and understand that humanity is all one group. There's no
reason to fight. As a species, we need to grow up a little and make
warfarte obsolete. THAT is morally right. Not trying to decide if Dresden
or Hiroshima was right or wrong. Neither were. Both were results of our
grave Human stupidity, and were local solutions that seemed workable at the
time.

Until the day comes that we advance betyond out blinkered state, the use of
weapons will be a necessity in our world. They at least provide some sort
of solution to our problems


MJD.
Military Historian, Fencing coach, weapons nut and all-round military buff.
Work that one out.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #167
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 168



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Ine Givar (part 2)
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: Warfare
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #163
Re: Warfare
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: Nukes and nuking
Re: System Defense Boats
Re: World War II (Off Topic) w/ a bit of Trav in it
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'
Re: Belters
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Roran: a new animal
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: Nuking Japan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:05:42 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Ine Givar (part 2)

I'm ill, and this part is not the best, but here goes:

Organisation: The Ine Givar was originally an outgrowth of a political
movement and that heritage shows in its organisation. The movement is
directed by Central Committee, a group of thirteen individuals headed
by a President. In theory the Central Committee is the supreme body and
the President merely chairs the Central Committee and all decisions are
made collectively. However, in reality, the Ine Givar have never actually
conformed to this theoretical pattern. For the greater bulk of its
history, the real seat of power was the President, with the Central
Committee acting as a debating forum for the more powerful factions within
the organisation. Even during the so called "Committee Period" (1077 to
1114) the real power did not actually reside with the Central Committee
(at that time the Ine Givar were effectively controlled by the Zhodani
and Sword World's intelligence services).

Below the Central Committee are the Quadrants. Each Quadrant consists
roughly of four Imperial Subsectors and these are the basic organisational
unit of the Ine Givar. Each Quadrant is run by a Committee of seven
individuals. These are charged with carrying out the overall directions of
the Central Committee. Each Quadrant divides itself into a miltary and a
political arm, both completely independent of the other but answering to
the Quadrant Committee. For reasons of security, no person in the political
arm is supposed to have any knowledge of the personnel of the military arm
and vis versa, however, as might be expected this is not always possible.
Both the military and political arms then divide themselves into a number
of Districts (the actually size of an individual District is dependent on
a number of factors, but most cover between four and six worlds), though
the military and political districts do not neccessarily correspond.

The political arm is responsible for organising all forms of political
agitation, from student demonstrations to workers strikes; and is the most
"visible" face of Ine Givar. The military arm is divided into four distinct
types: Main force units (Guerilla Cadres), Direct action units (the classic
terrorist), Intelligence units (deep agents planted for intelligence
gathering), and Special operations groups (Agent Provectures). In order to
minimise the security risks, both the military and political arms are
organised along the classic "Cell structure". Under this organisation, each
"cell" is a completely independent unit with only the cell leader knowing
any outside contacts, and even then only one contact up (ie the cell leader
will know how to contact one cell in the organisation above them and any
cells subordinate to them). Thus if a cell leader is captured, whilst all
the cells below may be compromised, the cells above and across are far less
likely to be compromised. This "cell structure" has remained relatively
constant throughout the Ine Givar's existance (indeed it is the most common
organisational structure of such groups).

Aims and Philosphy: The driving aim of the Ine Givar has always been to
reform the Imperium into a democratic society. This philopshy unlies all of
the organisation's aims and demands. Its manifesto can be summed up quite
simply
They demand: an end to the nobility, that the Imperium remove all corrupt
and oppressive local governments, that the Imperium restrains the preditory
economic activities of Imperial corporations, and that the Imperial security
apperatus be replaced with a system not riddled with corruption and brutality.


If I've missed out anything, or anyone can come up with more ideas, please
let me know. I'm planning to put this up on my web site.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 03:48:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

In mail you write:

> This is not a futuristic entertainment facility but rather a popular game
> of chance especially popular among the Vargr (who originated it):

<snip>

Reminds me of the game I and a few friends used to play. What got us
started was when a game store got in some 8-sided dice that were made
of the same "ivory" plastic as good six-sided ones. Rounded edges,
ddeep, *black* pips the whole bit. Yes, *pips*. Sionce they looked so
much like casino dice, we re-wrote the rules for craps to use them.

2 is still "snake-eyes".
3 is still 3 (i forget what special significance 3 has in craps)
9 takes the place of 7
15 takes the place of 11
16 is "boxcars" (actuallt "the rings" is more like it)

It's great fun to be playing this, and have someone who wasn't paying
attention suddenly jerk around when he hears "Ok, 14's your point..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 03:27:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

In mail you write:

>> Flat cats are a nice pet. And far fewer players wiull have read "The
>> Rolling Stones" than have seen the Star Trek episodes about Tribbles.
>> And flat cats are amusing in their own right. Having evolved to hide in
>> terrain much like the Painted Desert on Earth, they are the most
>> *ghastly* colors, shocking pinks, oranges, bright yellows are all
>> *natural* colors on them. 
>
> It's been too long since I read Heinlein's "Rolling Stones" so I don't
> remember the 'flat cats'.

They are a disc shaped animal. Think of a furry frisbee with three eyes
and a mouth placed along the edge somewhere. They "purr" and like
cuddling up to warm blooded critters. They make nice, affectionate
pets. And, being desert critters, they are neat (ie droppings will be
bone dry pellets, with little odor). 

They are boneless, and travel by a sort of "inchworm" technique. They
apparently have *some* means of "gripping" rough surfaces for climbing.
And they may be able to use part of their body like a suction cup on
smoother surfaces.

They adapt well to zero-g. They like gliding on air currents. It has
been claimed that they can steer but this is not considered proven.

They have an unfortunate tendency to like to crawl onto the faces of
"special friends" while said friends are asleep. 

In cold conditions they "wrap up" into a small sphere to conserve body
heat, and they can hibernate (Martian winter is approx 10 earth months!)

Also, coming from such a harsh environment, they will reporoduce fairly
rapidly to the extent of the carrying capacity of the environment.
Litters of eight every 64 days are typical for well fed flat cats. The
young are quite small (coaster size flat, meatball sized when
"wrapped"). They mature rapidly. And by the time "mother" is ready for
her next litter, so are her kids. 

The sexuality of Martian aninmals is a bit weird. They tend to be "male"
as "children" and and "female" as adults. So isolating a flat cat
*doesn't* mean it can't reproduce.

In short, they are *tough*, but lovable. And a potential *disaster* if
overfed while on a long normal space flight. These are what David
Gerrold got the idea for tribbles from. When he later contacted
Heinlein to apologize, Heinlein told him not to worry. They weren't
*that* close, and besides they'd *both* swiped the idea from "Pigs is
Pigs" (a story involving out of control guinea pigs)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:21:16 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Warfare

>Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:30:50 -0000
>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Warfare

[snip the words of sanity]

This I think, has to be one of the best summaries of the whole stupid
situation/argument I've seen.

Now can we please take the aruments as to wheither or not any warring
nation was justifed in doing anything to anyone to email and restict
ourselves to discussions as to how the 3rd Imperium et al handles the
question of morality in warfare. Are the Imperial rules of war a
genuine attempt to limit the brutality of war or just a cynical attempt
by the 3rd Imperium to limit any potential rivals? (my take is it's
both).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Here's a hint -
If he jumps up and kicks you in the stomach, he's probably not Santa"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:17:40 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #163

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:10:54 -0500, you wrote:

>So before we all go into a frenzy (and Phil McGregor goes into ecstasy at
>GT becoming the published system;-) ) remember that Traveller isn't going
>to die even if this as yet unsubstantiated rumour is true. It has survived
>4 editions and 2 main publishers so far.

Aw, gee, am I *that* predictable? Shucks!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:48:12 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Warfare

MJ Dougherty schrieb:

> And when we fight, we use our weapons. Whatever they may be, from sharp
> rock to nuke or biotoxin, we use them to achieve whatever end we had in
> mind when we started fighting - usually making the other lot stop fighting.
I dont argue about using weapons in self defense, but in german law we
have something we call "excess of self-defense", when the attacked goes
beyond what is objectively necessary to ones own self defense.
Self-defense is not about beating the other party to a pulp, its about
ensuring ones own safety.
When Japan was nuked, its military back had already been broken, sooner
or later, the peace party in Japan would have taken over, anyway, Japan
was no threat to the US anymore! Thus the nuking was taking things over
the top! 

> None of these things are 'morally right' - ever.
I agree completely. The point i was making was just that with the event
of nuclear bombs, the insanity has reached a degree where no man should
remain silent. We now have the capability to not only destroy an enemy,
but to poison his land for years, even decades to come. We can destroy
our planet. This insanity has to end, but it wont if nobody speaks his
mind. The nuke is a brainchild of the insanity of the 20th centure, now
with it ending soon, we should put the nuke to death with it.
 
> But we do them because they are sometimes necessary in our way of life.
But some of theose thing are not necessary. There should always be
alternatives to armed conflict, there is always an alternativeto nukingf
an enemy.
> 
> Until the day comes that we advance betyond out blinkered state, the use of
> weapons will be a necessity in our world. They at least provide some sort
> of solution to our problems
Use of force is never a solution. Violence breeds violence.


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:43:22 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

> >...and a group of Discordians praising Eris.
> 
> > ALL HAIL ERIS!!!!!!
> 
> Ah! Will you guys cut that out, you're giving me a swelled head.
Not you, Eris. The other Eris!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:48:19 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Nukes and nuking

TravelrTNE@aol.com schrieb:

>      Ob trav.  What's to prevent some of the worlds in the 3I, notably
> balkanized worlds, from going crazy and nuking each other silly?  These would
> be interdicted, no?  But would any efforts be made to decapitate or scalp the
> nuclear capabilities? Wouldn't this require near permanent stationing of
> "weapons inspectors?"
The Imperial Rules of War prohibit nations from using nuclear weapons.
Id expect a strong and decisive Imperial Creackdown would follow such
an act. How this would look like in detail, i dont know.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:21:26 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: System Defense Boats

> OTOH, maybe the meson decay happens along a line segment, rather than at a
> point in space.  If this is true, the line segment might completely
I think it isnt a line, as deep meson stations would not be feasible
then (cutting a way up to the surface and destroying anything directly
above...)
I favor the point in space theory

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:01:38 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic) w/ a bit of Trav in it

deadeye@ebicom.net schrieb:
> 
> The fact that people find these topics painful is a bit of evidence we
> have grown up.  Personally I think there is nothing wrong with thinking
> the bombing of Hiro was evil, but then everything about war is.
Quite right about that! I just felt the level of insanity reached
previously unimagined extents when the A-Bomb came into the picture. 
> 
> The Germans have lived with 50 years of the rest of the wolrd badgering
> them.  It wasn't Volkers war but it is his responsibilty to prevent
> another, as it is all of ours. One way to do that is respect other folks
> right to live as they will as long as it doesn't hurt others.
Exactly, thats one lesson we had to learn the hard way. But thats what
history is all about: Learning from it and not making the same mistakes
again. Thats the reason i object to defending the use of the bomb.
Justifying it makes it easier to justify it the next time round-only
that that world cannot afford a next time round!

> idea of obeying orders and killing millions for an "objective?"  Then
> put your money where your mouth is and get hanged.
I know that this is often the alternative. However in german military we
were taught that following orders is not an excuse. The individual is
asked to think for himself and disobey illegal orders, for obeying
illegal orders is a crime. If me not dropping the bomb will possibly
save thousands of lives, but cost my own, it will be hard, but as i
believe its the progress of humainity that matters, i think id chose
me as the one to go! Someone has to make a start somehow.

> There are never easy answers in a grey and painful world.
Quite right.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:12:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

In mail you write:

> a "We must destroy them because otherwise they will destroy us", but
> rather a "They are doing things that work against our interest, get them
> away, the faster the better". I don=B4t say the US should have just
> contained the Japanese, but Nuking two cities was a little over the top.
> Just do the math: How many lives were saved by those nukes? Substract
> the loss of life, direct and indirect, that was caused by the bombs. The
> result is negative, thus the use of the bombs was an evil thing to do.

Sorry, but the result is overhelmingly *positive*. 

AT THE TIME THE DECISION WAS MADE, the *only* alternative seemed to be
invading the home islands, which would *certainly* have resulted in
casualties in the millions on *both* sides.

A demo blast was *not* an alternative. They had *three* bombs *total*.
One was used in the initial test at Alamagordo. That left *two*. One of
those (the one used on Nagasaki) was of an *untested* design. It would
be a minimum of three months (maybe six, I don't have that book handy)
before they had enough fissionables to assemble another.

That means that any "demonstration" would have used the *only* bomb
that they knew would work. Leaving them with one that *might* work. And
months before there'd be any more.

Without a demonstration, your alternatives are "keep on bombing
conventionally, while preparing to invade the islands", don't do
*anything*, and "use the nuclear bombs". 

Someone else posted the casualty levels expected for continuing the
*conventional* bombing. And I've just posted the casualty estimates for
an invasion. So *that* approach will result in more casualties than the
atomic bombs did. And it is *very* unlikely that this "more of the
same" approach would have gotten a surrender until *after* the
invasion. 

"Do nothing" is *not* a viable option. It certainly won't given the
other side any incentive to surrendeer, and it's quite likely to tempt
him into more attacks.

Also note that if the Japanese hadn't surrendered after Nagasaki, we'd
have been in a *real* fix.

> Yes Evil! It doesn=B4t matter that it was against "The Enemy!!", it was
> directed against human life, against civilians.

Sorry. Those cities *were* legitimate targets. The *only* reason that
they hadn't *already* been bombed flat was that they and a few others
had been set aside so that if the atomic bombs worked (something that
the military commanders weren't willing to believe until after the
Alamagordo test) they'd be able to asses the effects without having
arguments about what had been damaged by earlier raids.

Those cities had both port facilities and factories making war
materials. That qualified them as legitimate targets.

So unless you have something that miraculously reduces the casualties
from the continued conventional bombing, and from the invasion, or
shows that the *Allies* had a reason to suspect that surrender was
likely soon your argument pretty much falls apart. 

And remember that as far as the people giving the orders knew, this was
just a "big bomb". In oyther words, just a way of getting the *same*
effect as a massive raid by using one bomb and one plane.

*Don't* try to argue based on things that you know and they didn't
know. And don't try to argue based on "facts" that aren't.

Using the bombs wasn't "nice". It wasn't meant to be. But given the
data available, I don't really see *how* any other decision could have
been made.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:06:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> At 08:03 PM 12/02/98 -0700, Merrick wrote:
>> >
>> >PS-I know the sneak attack wasn't intentional, but did anybody know
>> >(or _care_) in 1945?
>> 
>> I very much doubt they cared, but I'm pretty sure they knew, because the
>> Japanese diploamtic cipher was broken, and they were reading the messages
>> as fast as the Japanese Embassy.
>
> Actually, no, as far as can be told from the historical record and
> archives, we knew _something_ was up, but not any details. We had an
> enormous amount of intercepted, undeciphered, deciphered, but
> untranslated, and translated material on hand. They have found hints of
> the attack in material we had, but this was only after the war as they
> deciphered and translated some of the mass of untouched material.

No, he's correct. We *were* reading the traffic for the Japanese
embasy. In fact, we were decoding it *faster* than they were. Trouble
is, all the embassy knew was that they were to deliver the declaration
of war at a precise time, not *why*. 

So we *knew* it was going to be war (but not until late on DEC 6th). We
didn't know *where* they were going to attack. That involved Naval
codes, and worse, there wasn't any comm traffic to intercept, as the
task force had not only sailed under radio silence, but their regular
radio operators were left back home so that the folks trying to keep
track of fleet deployments by recognizing the "fist" (unique rythym
patterns of an operator sending Morse code) of the operators would
think the units in question were still back at home.

Several books on cryptography (one of my long term hobbies) deal with
this. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 05:11:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'

In mail you write:

> Dress Me Up

<snip>

Believe it or not, this already exists!

In Japan, computer programs that display characters (usually popular
Anime characters) in various outfits are quite popular. Though the
wardrobe options aren't as elaborate. 

Rather than be "anatomically incorrect", they just don't let you remove
the underwear.  Though some *will* if you are either persistent enough,
or know the "trick". 

I picked this up from the FAQ in one of the anime groups. :-)

So we are on the way!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:59:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Belters

In mail you write:

>     What's to keep another, less scrupulous belter from taking off
> another's ownership beacon?  Especially if it's the motherload?

The fact that it'd be *very* obvious. Remember, that asteroid is in
"plain sight". And so is his approach. Asteroids are *not* close
together. You'd consider it unusual to be close enough to another
asteroid to see it as a 6th magnitude point of light (ie very faint star).

>     So, according to Leonard's very informative posts, is it not
> practical to move the asteroid?  Chop it up w/ the laser and carry
> off some hunks? (the "good" ones).

That was part of the point I was trying to make. There *aren't* any
"good hunks". Aside for the settling into layers caused by gravity that
seperates the stony and metallic parts, the composition of an asteroid
is going to be *quite* homogenous.

It takes a planet with various sorts of "weathering" and especially
*water* flowing thru hot rock to create mineral "veins". 

Unless your find is at a layer boundary or has a "core" any given chunk
of it will be much like any other. If it includes a boundary, then one
side will be one material, the other side will be the other. But again
the two types will be pretty uniform. 

It takes a fairly large body to have a core (be it rock in an icy/CHON
body, or metal in a stony body. So the core is going to be a bit too
large to haul off in one chunk. It'll likely be hundreds of meters
across.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:04:37 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> I've always thought that it was kinda weird that the army was the only
> branch that didn't have any air presence, especially since the USAF used to
> be the US Army Air Corps before they were separated off into their own
> branch.  I believe that the army is actually prevented from have air units
> by the same legal language that established the USAF.


Make no mistake, the Army hs the largest air force of all the services.
They are called helocopters and are ultrabad.

However, there is an aggreement chopping all fixed wing air to the
USAF.  I too have no idea why the red headed stepchild handmedown A-10
is not pushed to a loving Army.  I'd go in a heartbeat to be with the
troopies.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:14:18 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

>   were to a thousand-dollar missile.
> 
>

Notice there is still an Air Force,and for a reason.  I got shot at by 
guns and sams in the gulf and had a lot of friends that did too.  They
are not the endall of air war and we have measures, called "wild
weasels" or SEAD that effectively shuts them down.

Thousand dollar?  One of those things, depending on models, is upwards
of 1 million dollars itself.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:27:25 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Roran: a new animal

How about flanoloas?  They are specially bred by loving technicians to
be your best friends!  Much like flatcats they too have a wonderful
habit of finding their sleeping special friends face!

Imagine how comforting that must be, knowing your favorite flanola is
right there with you!  I love flanolas, ever since I first saw one!  

Maybe you'd like one too?  Maybe three or four?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:59:53 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:20:32 +1300, you wrote:

>At 10:42 AM 13/02/98 -0600, Bolie Williams IV wrote:
>>
>>The two nuclear bombs droped on Hiroshim and Nagasaki did not kill as many
>>people as many of the firebombing raids against Tokyo.  They just happened
>>to be particularly dramatic.  The Japanese were going to fight to the
>>death... even after the first bomb dropped, they weren't going to surrender.
>>
>IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the country
>was paralysed by the refugees, and they couldn't sort out what terms (if
>any) they would try for and get in touch with the US before the second bomb
>was dropped. IMO three days was too little time. How long would the US have
>taken to make up its mind in similar circumstances?

The military leaders of Japan had already attempted a coup to prevent
surrendering to the US after the first bomb went off. They did not
believe there was another bomb available and felt the first one was
all we had. Even after the second bomb went off the military leaders
were willing to fight to the end; only the Emperor's insistance that
enough was enough stopped them.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:05:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

David P. Summers writes:
>Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:56:41 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen
><rancke@diku.dk>
> 
>>>It doesn't matter.  The US was attacked and had a right to do what it
>>>thought would save it's soldiers lives by bringing the war to an end.
>>
>>By this logic there is no such thing as a war crime, at least not if
>>you are attacked. Is that what you believe?
> 
>No.  The US treatment of Japanese Americans, for example, was wrong.
>Executing prisoners of war was wrong.  I don't say that _anything_
>done was wrong.

(I assume you mean 'right' instead of 'wrong', right?)

Anyway, that's the only point I wanted to make here. I happen to disagree
with you about the propiety of using weapons with that large a range for
collateral damage that close to civilians, but I don't think this is the
proper forum to go into that.

>However, what the US did was neither against international law (which is
>the basis for a "war crime")

Hmm... I may be wrong here, but don't international law have something
about not targeting civilians?

>			...nor different in what either side had done
>before (except in how it was carried out). 

Eh? What does that have to do with a purely philosophical debate about
right and wrong? If it's wrong then the fact that others have done it
too is a poor defense. If it's right it is irrelevant.

>The nation of Japan attacked the US and the US had a right to strike back.

Certainly the US had a right to strike back. That's not the question. The
question is whether they had the right to use nuclear weapons against two
major cities brim full of civilians to do so. 
 
And Phillip McGregor writes:

>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>
>>It seems to me that the whole concept of war crimes arise from the
>>idea that there are some things you're not entitled to do, even to
>>defend yourself...
> 
>I would qualify the above ... there are some things you're not entitled to
>do *unless the other side does it first*.

I would change that to "unless you have good reason to believe that the
enemy will do it again". I quite agree that a population should not
allow itself to be destroyed rather than to break some of its own rules.
That's why I'm not sure that using nuclear bombs on Japan couldn't be
justified with a "lesser of two evils" argument. But I'm convinced
that using then were "an evil". Maybe a lesser of two, but definitely
an evil. Just as the Allied terror-bombings of German cities that were
no longer military targets was an evil. 

>While I am sorry for the civilian casualties suffered by the Japanese at
>Hiroshima and Nagasaki in an abstract sense, in that they were truly the
>victims of their own leaders, I have absolutely no trouble with the two
>cities being nuked. The Japanese started the war, and the US were entitled
>to use any legal means of ending it.

Basically my objections boils down to my belief in the concept of a
difference between civilians and military. If one dosen't believe in
such a difference, then I agree that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
legitimate targets for nuclear bombardment. If one does believe in
such a difference, the question becomes more complicated.

> ... however, for example, if Mr
>Hussein decided to use Chem and Bio weapons against Israel, then the Israelis
>are perfectly entitled to Nuke Baghdad (and anywhere else in Iraq) till it
>glows, in a legal sense, as all these weapons are classified as "weapons of
>mass destruction" and the use of any one allows retaliation with any other.
>
>Or are you suggesting that the Israelis, in such a situation, should sit
>back and recoil in horror and say "Oh dear, we should never even consider
>retaliating with atomic weapons, because they're illegal. We would rather
>see all the people in Israel die by Gas or Plague."

I believe they should use whatever means necessary to kill Hussein that
involved the least civilian casualties. If the only means they had to
achieve that goal was a nuclear missile, then I believe they would be
justified in using one. But only if it was the only possible means. Not
if other reasonable alternatives existed. Whatever weapon that involved
the smallet possible colatteral damage.

I wonder if we have reached the point where we should take further
discussion to e-mail?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #168
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 169



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: War Crimes
Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)
Re: Minor Human Homeworlds (Luriani)
Flood Myths (was: Water Canopy)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Since Nurenburg...
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Null development in key areas
names101
Escalation (was: Nuking Japan)
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: Sandcasters
Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'
Re: Any opinions on "Aliens Archive"
Re: Null development in key areas
Starships vs Planets
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
RE: Systems and Mileaus...
Heroic Character (was: IFF it worked that way...)
Re: Keith Laumer and Bolos
La Plus ca Change (was: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.) LONG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 15:22 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

In-Reply-To: <980213.025723.2J4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Leonard,

> One of the scientists involved with the Manhattan District wrote an SF
> story back in the 50s, set in a future where the Soviets got the upper
> hand and the US had to surrender. The title was "My trial as a War
> Criminal". He had the US commanders being tried for that sort of thing
> as well as bombing of civilian targets (like Dresden).

The firebombing of Dresden (which I think only involved RAF aircraft) 
was done *at the request of* the Soviets (the fleeing civilians would 
cause chaos behind German lines, making the Soviet advance easier).
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 15:22 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

In-Reply-To: <34E39252.5060F739@teleport.com>

Douglas,

> ObTraveller - How often does the Imperium have to 'spank' planetary governments,

Not that often, I'd think, 'cos when the Imperium "spanks" you, it hurts!

> and how do you think they do so?  Sanctions, Embargo, military action?

All of the above, depending on the world and the situation. Start by taxing all 
trade, then *stop* all trade, and finally stick a BatRon in orbit and threaten to 
toast the place.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:32:10 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

Well, IMHO the pursuit of war criminals is a bit of a joke, since it is
always the victor that claims the right to punish the loser for war
crimes-- *regardless* of the own actions of their own country.  After all,
it is the victor that gets to decide what goes into the history books.  If
Germany had won the war, I doubt very much that the rest of the world would
be able to bring charges of war crimes up against them.  I guess it is just
part of winning...



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:32:12 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:35:43 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:

> I don't mean to get nasty, Volker, but how many Soviets and Jews died directly
> in WWII?  About 26 Million all told.  Why you'd want to even discuss this topic
> is beyond me.  I apologize for even reading this thread and will have no more to
> do with it.

Oh, now *that* was a real smart thing to bring up.  I suggest you hang
around for a few more posts because things might get a little ugly after
that last comment...



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:32:14 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: War Crimes

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:27:51 -0500 (EST), HAL wrote:

> 1.5 million service men were not "soldiers".  They are Human beings.  Of
> those who survived, many of them fathered children that Japanese Soldiers
> would have killed stillborn (without even had the chance of being
> concieved of) had America continued to fight the war.  By this, I mean
> that by killing the fathers, the Japanese soldiers were also guilty of
> murdering "future civilians" yet unborn.

This is getting a bit *too* hypothetical.

IMHO, Truman did what he did more for the sake of improving his own
political position than for any personal interest in protecting the lives
of US citizens.  He wanted to go down in history as a major player that
defeated the menacing Japanese.  The problem with doing things solely to be
remembered has its drawbacks, however, especially since opinions change
over time.  Just MHO.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:32:20 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)

>>Actually the Ghurkas are pretty much the all time nail eaters.
>>Royal Marines are reputed to be just as good if not better than the
>>average US Marine.

Then there was the Ghurka who held a position all night against repeated
assaults by a Japanese company. While I forget most of the details, I
remember that after his right hand was blown off by a hand grenade (he'd
been throwing them back), he got "very very angry" and counter-attacked.
The company retreated.

The Ghurkas, like the RM and SAS, go out of their way to create these
legends, then live up to them.

Also, they have been shabbily treated by the British, so that many widows
and invalids are in financial need. There is a fund you can contribute to
- - and who knows, having the Ghurkas as friends could be handy one day!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:36:32 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Minor Human Homeworlds (Luriani)

In a message dated 98-02-13 23:10:14 EST, you write:

<< 
 What do you think about perhaps making them be aquatic or semi-aquatic?
 Could be another of Grandfather's kids' more outre' Homo-experiments.
 
>>

OK

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:39:27 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Flood Myths (was: Water Canopy)

>>The explanation for the flood myth is pretty simple. They originated with
>>the Assyrians and Babylonians. Who just happened to live ion a wide flat
>>plain between a *pair* of rivers!
>
>>Other cultures with flood myths also lived in areas that flood.

I recently read an article in New Scientist about the flooding of the
Black Sea.

Apparently sediment cores and so on indicate that the Black Sea was fresh
water fairly recently, and that when it was fresh it was a lot smaller.
The writer hypothesised that the flooding may have started some "big
flood" legends. 

Sorry I can't provide a better reference - the magazine is in Ottawa (my
friends there subscribe, and I catch up several times a year).  Remind me
in March if you're really curious, I should be heading up North again then.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 15:22 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #147

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980213110900.0080c450@pop.clear.net.nz>

Rupert,

> My problem with the decision to use the nukes was that things had got to
> the stage where there was no enormous need to rush such a decision,
> especially when it was known that the nukes were a completely new phenomon.

That's almost certainly a reason why they were used - these new weapons 
needed to be tested.

> I suspect the fact that the Soviets were about to get in on the act had
> something to do with it, and giving them an object lesson quite a lot more.

Definitely reasons.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 15:22 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19980212200518.342776bc@mail.hooked.net>

Douglas,

> What's the old line?  "Fighter pilots make movies, ground attack pilots
> make history?"  Speaking as a grunt, I'd rahter see one A-10 over the
> battlefield than hear about thirty knights of the air, in glorious single
> combat, defeating the wiley foe.

Even if the wiley foe in question are enemy ground attack aircraft coming 
to bomb the **** out of you?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 15:22 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Since Nurenburg...

In-Reply-To: <34E38BF0.194B@edgenet.net>

Daniel,

> > Considering a Naval warship - even a Destroyer - has enough firepower
> > to devastate an entire planet
>  
> Exactly what weapons does it have (the 33000 ton destroyer which
> is about 155m long) have that can "devastate" anything.  Nuc missiles

I knew I'd regret that! I was referring to the population of the world, 
not the actual planet. Bear in mind that the average world has a 
population of half a million, not much of a starport, and TL lower than 
Earth today.

> yes (vs. planetary point defenses no).  750 MJ lasers?  No significant
> effect.
>  
> Heck, even a type T spinal mount only has about a 0.869 kiloton yield.
> (That's about 869 tons TNT equivalent.  Avery small nuclear scale
> blast, smaller than most modern tac nukes.

Yes, but it gives you an effectively infinite number of "nukes", which 
can be placed very accurately (if you can hit something the size of a 
Scout/Courier 10ls away, from orbit you put them virtually anywhere you 
like). And yes, the blasts are relatively small, but it would only take a 
couple to flatten a small town. How many 0.869Mt nukes would it take to 
destroy New York? And if you want a bigger blast, use the warhead from a 
det-laser.

Against a hostile world, all you have to do is puncture the domes, blow 
up the life-support system, etc.

Against a world that depends heavily on trade, you can disrupt this 
(shoot or turn away ships, nuke the starport, etc).

Against other worlds, you can sink any ship you want, shoot down any 
aircraft, destroy any power plant, flatten any population centre...and 
there's *nothing* most worlds can do to stop you.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:13:14 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Don't ever get into a turning fight with an A-10.  But it is a well
taken point.  Problem is ground pounders only hear about what goes on up
there, and never see it in person.

Nothing like being in an attack aircraft and being jumped by 4 MiG-29's.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:20:38 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> > battlefield than hear about thirty knights of the air, in glorious single
> > combat, defeating the wiley foe.
> 

There is no such thing as single combat in the air, BTW.  Most
engagements we practice for involve 60 strikers and about 8-10 dedicated
OCA.

OCA punches a hole the strikers push through, then CAPs while we do the
nasty(the other nasty.)  OPFOR is usually 6-10 redair, plus more sams
than you can shake a stick at.

Makes me wonder how Trav combat will actually occur with 3D.  Will there
be a wall of battle or will there be surgical ops like the
aforementioned.  I tend to beleive the former, simply because there is
nowhere for the strikers to hide.

And forces from all the contries on this list play in these games out in
Nevada.  No, I havent seen any UFO's....but I'd like to:)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:19:34 -0800
From: Kenji Houston <hokido@primenet.com>
Subject: names101

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of names101?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:29:45 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan)

aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor) writes:
>
>This
*
> is entirely logical. Under Australian law (and, as I understand it, UK
>and
>
>US law) the law of self-defence allows a person to respond with
>*equivalent*
>
>force. If someone threatens you with their fist, then you may respond
>with your
>
>fist, but not a gun etc. (yes, there are exceptions, a 90 lb female would
>be
>
>perfectly justified in shooting an unarmed but intent on rape 270 lb male
>
>martial artist ... similar exemptions could be inferred onto wartime
>practise).

* The policy of only retalitating with nukes/CBW if first attacked that
way.


Works until you are losing. According to what I've read of NATO battle
plans (and I'm not an expert), using tactical nukes when conventional
methods didn't work was part of the plan.

Also causes problems when the original action is reprehensible. By a
straight tit-for-tat, if I gas your cities then you can gas mine. If I
napalm your villages then you can napalm mine. It may make great games
theory, but I have moral problems with the retaliation aspect.  (Also
makes riot control interesting: if I just throw rocks at you, can you
shoot me?)


Getting back to Traveller, when did the Imperial Rules of War evolve? 
When were they codified?  Where does biowar fit?  What is Imperial policy
to attacks?

Personally, I've always favoured immediate massive retaliation by the
Imperials, because IMTU they are always outnumbered and can't trade
casualties one-for-one.  Note that I do note necessarily _support_ this
policy: my Imperium was always a bit darker than GDW's Imperium, and
tended to do questionable things. 

Could you military/legal types work up some standing policies for the M0
Imperium?

It might be interesting to have different policies for different branches
(eg. diplo/naval/scout) of Imperial service. That should really confuse
the natives!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:09:27 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

At 04:52 pm 2/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I think you are being naive to the reality of the business world if you
>believe Marc Miller can keep lining up investors for a game that has
>repeatedly failed over the short term. Anyone who does their homework will
>see that more established games have had much greater longevity than
almost
>any of the editions of Traveller.

	Please! Let's let Marc say (if he chooses) what his plans are if IG
doesn't publish T4.1, instead of getting into another substanceless war.
Even if Marc can't find the hypothetical investors (by ignoring the TML?),
look at how Greg Porter is distributing *his* material! Hint: I for one
would actually prefer an electronic version of T4.1, one from which I can
cut and paste for my own use...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:12:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

At 09:01 pm 2/13/98 -0600, you wrote:
>A soliton is a steady wave that does not vary, much like a pure tone.

	Not quite: a "soliton" is a waveform with a single peak, instead of a
continuous wave like a pure cone. 
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:31:59 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'

>Believe it or not, this already exists!
>
>In Japan, computer programs that display characters (usually popular
>Anime characters) in various outfits are quite popular. Though the
>wardrobe options aren't as elaborate. 

Yes, that is pretty much where I got this idea.  They are an electronic form
of Kisyakae dolls (I hope I am spelling it right), and there's a strangely
fun, addictive quality to fooling around with the dolls.  The name has been
changed to KiSS dolls among American audiences.

But, I hope they haven't moved on to holographic images yet :^)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:03:55 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Any opinions on "Aliens Archive"

> I just picked up "Aliens Archive" yesterday and was wondering if any of you
> biology dudes out there can care to fill me in as to how "possible" some of
> the aliens are.  Did Tim Brown even have a clue what he was talking about
> when he wrote it, or does much of it actually make sense?
> 
> 
> 

Run some by me, I could tell you.  I studied real world Xenobiology a
few years back in order to learn what I could about 'creating' aliens
for my RPG.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:32:24 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 03:22 PM 2/14/98 GMT0, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19980212200518.342776bc@mail.hooked.net>
>
>Douglas,
>
>> What's the old line?  "Fighter pilots make movies, ground attack pilots
>> make history?"  Speaking as a grunt, I'd rahter see one A-10 over the
>> battlefield than hear about thirty knights of the air, in glorious single
>> combat, defeating the wiley foe.
>
>Even if the wiley foe in question are enemy ground attack aircraft coming 
>to bomb the **** out of you?

That's what the FIM-92 Stinger is for.  That, and my entrenching tool.
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:13:25 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Starships vs Planets

I agree with Andrew that ships can have significant effects against
the populations of worlds, especially where the world is particularly
susceptible (domes, etc...).  I discussed this with my brother and
he noted that one constant of history is that militaries generally
decline after wars. In the middle of the Imperium where everyone is
sitting fat, dumb, and happy,  why would anybody but the the worlds
of dissatisified Ilelish bolster their defenses until the rebellion
broke out?  IMO, Dulinor's institution of the draft and industrial
infrastructure programs (that helped offset the effect of the
long-existing Ilelish depression were the foundations of his later
war effort.  He was preparing a decade before he shot Strephon.

His worlds would be ready, the rest of the Imperium would not.  Hence
as described in the TNS articles, he was better prepared and 
organized.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:21:24 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

>Those
>will go out and settle new worlds where they can do their thing
>undisturbed (See Solomani and Aslan for Solomani Sphere colonization).
>Christianity is far from the most prominent religion today, others still
>have more numbers (Percentage of Hinduism is growing every day) Also, in
>our western world, Atheism and Agnosticism are gaining rapidly.

In the United States, christianity has been growing by leaps and bounds over
the last couple of years as well.  I don't think that we can really predict
that far into the future by looking at the religious trends in today's world
though.  Religion, on a base level, is explaining the unexplainable.  In
today's world, we place a lot of faith on science as having explained
everything.  Of course, there's always something that comes along screaming
down the road that is unexplainable...

Gravity and magnetism are two examples in today's world, and there are a lot
of things dealing with astronomy and space-time and all that jazz.  But, since
the understanding of gravity and magnetism only have to go so far for the
layman, it appears to be explained.  Things with less mass will be attracted
in some way to things with greater mass...  Magnets can stick to certain
metals and other magnets.

However, the Third Imperium has one very big something that the layman can
actually hear about, and possibly see, in action that completely circumvents
pretty much the rest of the universe.  J-Drive.  There's no explanation, it
just works.

In addition, you have the ancients.  Who are the ancients?  Why did they do
what they did?  Etc...

There are a lot of questions to be explained in the Traveller universe, and
religions are going to step in and answer these questions.  Personally, I
think religion would color a Traveller game most effectively, if used in the
right dosages.  After all, there is a religion behind every religious
dictatorship.  I think the dominant religion in the Imperium would be of
Vilani origin (unless some time in the Terra's conquest fueled mass
conversions, which is not entirely impossible).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:45:34 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Systems and Mileaus...

At 03:37 PM 2/13/98 -0600, you wrote:
>a) What is your favorite Traveller rules system?
>b) What is your favorite official Traveller milleau (setting)?
>c) Currently playing?

a) MegaTraveller, although I prefer using CORPS.

b) Classic Era, pre 5FW.  I'm working on a post-Civil War game set during
Arbellatra's Regency.

c) Nothing right now, due to health.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:05:24 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Heroic Character (was: IFF it worked that way...)

"Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com> writes:
>
>>When we were much younger, my brother suicided his favorite character
>
>>defending some women and children from pirates.  Opened fire from inside
>a
>
>>rescue ball - and kept firing instead of heading for the airlock because
>
>>he thought there were more pirates on the next deck. There weren't, but
>he
>
>>wasn't sore about losing the character, just said it was the right thing
>
>>to do and he'd do it again, then rolled up another character.
>
>>
>
>>I miss playing with him. He has a sense of morality missing from most
>
>>D&D-trained gamers.
>
>>
>
>Hey Rob,
>
>
>
>Come across with some details, i.e. the character's name, the ship this
>
>happened on, millieu (assume CT?).


I forget most of the details - it was a long time ago. 

His real name is Jonathan Prior - you might as well use that. The ship was
a CT merchant (far trader, I think), and I was setting him up for an
"infiltrate the pirates" adventure. I hadn't figured on his actions
because _I_ knew that the pirates wouldn't really kill the women and kids
(bad planning on my part).

The ship was modelled after the March Harrier (of Keith brothers fame). I
may have called it the March Hare - but that may have been a different
ship. (We had so many merchant ships then. After all, when you're scheming
to keep District 268 free from the Imperium you need a lot of money, and
trading was tfe best way of raising cash we could find.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:59:03 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Laumer and Bolos



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:17:03 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: La Plus ca Change (was: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.) LONG

Harold writes:
>
>   It's just that I see no purpose in rooting out all vestiges of our
>
>civilization's Christian roots.  There is strong evidence that doing so
>
>leaves behind an emptiness that has resulted in many of the social ills
>you
>
>see today (while you and I may be intellectual moralists, the masses need
>b
>elief in *something*--Christ, Allah, Zen, whatever--in order to behave).

FromThe Civilization of Europe in the Renaissance

_from the fifteenth century the orderliness essential to civilization was
emphasized by the repeated definition of man as an animal endowed with
reason, and the distinction between irrational and disciplined behaviour.
'Our Lord wishes people to conform to rule in external matters no less
than in their thoughts. Each must do what is right and proper for one of
his estate and order. If it is not done we shall become no better than
beasts and irrational animals.' [Written in 1528 by Johann Agricola, the
German moralist.]

The most habitual threat to order was instinctive violence. That tempers
were short is clear from a multitude of criminal legal cases dealing with
peasant and artisan woundings and murders after a swift escalation from
words to deeds. The quick-tempered Paduan artist Niccolo Pizzolo was
murdered in 1452. Mantegna, that devout and scholarly painter, hired thugs
to beat up rival who filched his designs Michaelangelo's broken nose was
the result of an altercation with a fellow sculptor. Christopher Marlowe
was murdered. Ben Jonson killed the actor Gabriel Spencer in a tavern
brawl. 

Crude forms of self-help were commonplace, the punching of a debtor until
he agreed to pay up, the employment of assassins in family vendettas and
of armed bands to avenge real or fancied wrongs.

In his autobiography Bartholomew Sastrow describes _ life amidst the
inter-family and inter-city feuds_ It is a story of brutal parental
discipline, of schoolboy quarrels leading to the free use of knives, of
brawls in streets, of corrupt magistrates. It describes a society
unbending in its prejudices and animosities, utterly materialistic save
for its crude superstitions and its purient scrutiny of the private lives
of its Lutheran ministers. 

It was an age when standards of behaviour were set by the old and flouted
by the aggressive young. And these were in the majority. Half the
population, possibly more, was under twenty. Apart from free-lance
prostitutes and licensed market stall-holders, girls and young women,
whether married or not, were kept at home or went out with a chaperone or
in a group. The bulge in the population was most provocatively composed of
male adolescents, teenagers and young bachelors. Complaints about their
insubordination and peace-breaking were a Europe-wide commonplace. 

Peasant boys worked in the fields from the ages of eight or nine and urban
adolescents took up an apprenticeship at thirteen or fourteen, often far
from home. However loving and concerned parents were about the conduct of
their children, at an impressionable age the young were chiefly in the
company of one another. Social rank made little difference.

For most observers the concern for violence was on an everyday level, and
it was growing. this becomes apparent not just because more records
survived but because the level of violence increased, or at least was
perceived to increase by those who deplored it, as wealth flowed into
fewer hands and the proportion of the population who turned to violence
for gain or the release of resentment increased. Competition for jobs in
the swelling population at a time when guild memberships were frozen in
the interests of keeping profits high, led to a proliferation of
wage-earners who could hope for no promotion within the concern they
worked for.  While not in themselves an indication of increased violence,
something of social attitudes can be gleaned from off-hand remarks. The
poor 'are not so beautiful to look at as the higher groups,' wrote the
Florentine Antonio Filarete in the early 1460s; to the military governors
of besieged towns who pushed them out to the enemies guns lest they ate
their betters' dwindling stores of food, they were 'poor and useless',
useless mouths', useless people'; for Thomas Nashe in 1599 - himself a
debt-ridden if talented scribbler - they were 'the rubbish meniality'.
Mid-fifteenth-century plans for rationalizing the medieval clutter
surrounding St Peter's in Rome provided for three new streets, one for the
rich, one for the reasonably well-to-do, one for the service-rendering
poor. Leonardo's ideal town plan provided for upper walkways for the
'gentlefolk' to protect them from the infrastructure used by la
poveraglia, the plebs. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #169
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 170



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

USA/USAAF/USAF
To Loren and anyone else that can answer: ? about "Flashback"
War Crimes
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)
Re: Relieved of Duty!
Re: Hedgehogs in SPAAAAACE...
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Marines (was: Re: US Marines)
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Jump Net Design Considerations
My last comment on warfare
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: Plea for help!
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Not my last comment on warfare
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe AND culture
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Nuking Japan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:57:03 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: USA/USAAF/USAF

R FLores said:

>I've always thought that it was kinda weird that the army was the only
>branch that didn't have any air presence, especially since the USAF used to
>be the US Army Air Corps before they were separated off into their own
>branch.  I believe that the army is actually prevented from have air units
>by the same legal language that established the USAF.

I'm not sure if it is in the formal legal language, but since 1948 when the
USAAF became the USAF, there has been a kind of "gentleman's agreement": US
Army gets to use helicopters, USAF flies everything that's fixed wing. This
agreement has been strained several times (USAF is not happy that USA flies
fixed wing observation a/c, but allows it because they don't want the job),
but is generally holding. TAC air is something the Army wants very much, and
the USAF has shown great reluctance to let it go (even though they _hate_
doing it). I am told in 1948 that USAF tried to pry aircraft away from the US
Navy as well, but got nowhere. Rumor has it that shortly before the Gulf War,
USAF was going to phase A-10s out of service and transfer them to US Army
control, but changed their minds.

The dichotomy/rivalry between fighter and ground attack pilots also exists in
the US Navy, and between fighter and heavy bomber pilots in the USAF.

It is in the nature of the beast. Every arm/branch/service thinks their's is
the most important. 

And you know what? They're right -- every single one of them!

Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus
      SJG Emigre

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:01:08 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: To Loren and anyone else that can answer: ? about "Flashback"

I recently recieved a copy of COACC and noticed an ad in the back for a
MegaTraveller adventure called "Flashback" that chronicaled the adventures
of a squad, apparently dieing of radiation sickness that used cold sleep to
jump forward in time, to look for a cure. According to the ad they popped up
around most of the major events in Imperium history. The Long Night, the
Founding of the 3I, Nicholle's assasinaton, the end of the Civil War, etc.
My question is was this ever published or did it disappear when GDW closed
shop? It seems to me that this would be a very valuable story line,
depending on the details involved, for plotting the Canon timeline from M:0
on, however I haven't seen it listed on any of the Trav. OPBL (Out of Print
Book Lists, practicing for next years contest ;^). Was it produced and does
anyone on the list have a copy?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com or temporariliy Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:42:19 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: War Crimes

Volker Greiman wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the very 
reason why we deploy our forces abroad.  Fight over THERE, not HERE.  
Had we done this in the 1930's, one might argue that there would have
been no WWII.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or as my brother in the US Army puts it:

"Don't try this at home."


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:35:41 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Actually Everclear is 200 proof, unless they sell a toned down version
>where you live. 100% ethanol, which upon exposure to air rapidly drops to
>97% due to ethanols hygroscopic nature.

Actually it isn't (quite) 200 proof.  To attain that degree of purity
requires (at current TL) the use of some very toxic (and IIRC, expensive)
chemicals that not only leave the alcohol without a trace of water, but also
with a taste that is enough to warn you away from drinking it.  It is also
made even more poisonous due to the slight traces of the chemicals.

Last I checked it's impossible to get alcohol absolutely pure.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:57:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Volker said:

> (in response to me):
>
> > OTOH, maybe the meson decay happens along a line segment, rather than at a
> > point in space.  If this is true, the line segment might completely
> 
> I think it isnt a line, as deep meson stations would not be feasible
> then (cutting a way up to the surface and destroying anything directly
> above...)
> I favor the point in space theory

True, if the line segment begins at the emitter.  But what if it is about
a hundred meters long, beginning and ending in the vicinity of the target?
Which one more closely models the canonical meson effects?


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 21:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

In-Reply-To: <199802131744.MAA08826@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

Eris,

> >The Captain can be relieved under the following conditions:
>  
> >1.  He is medically incapable (either physically or mentally) of  command,
> >as certified by the Chief Medical Officerand agreed by at  least 2/3 of
> >the Command Staff.
>  
> >2. He issues illegal orders. This must be agreed by the Executive  Officer
> >and at least 2/3 of the Command Staff.
>  
> >Note that an unsuccessful challenge to the Captain's authority is  mutiny,
> >the normal punishment for which is death.
>  
> I'd alter the conditions where a Captain may be relived of command to be:
>  
> 1.  He is medically incapable (either physically or mentally) of command,
> as certified by the Chief Medical Officer.  The First (or ranking) Officer,
> takes command.  The decision is evaluated by a medical review board at the
> earliest opportunity and if overturned the Captain is reinstated and CMO is
> indicted for mutiny.

What do you do if it's the CMO that's gone loopy/rogue/etc (but not enough to 
be noticed). He can declare the captain unfit, and nobody can argue 
(especially if it's a conspiracy with the XO). I wanted a safety net, hence 
the 2/3 majority.

> 2. There is no 2.
>  
> Personnel are not authorized to obey illegal orders.  Any Officer or
> crewman who performs illegal acts will be relieved of command (or duty) by
> the ranking Officer present and held to be tried for their crimes.

But if it's the CO who's committing them...?

> Personnel may refuse to perform orders they judge to be illegal, however
> their refusal may lead to immediate arrest, detention and subsequent court
> martial on grounds of treason, mutiny, or insorbordination.

So what *legally* can the command crew (say) do if the CO starts giving 
illegal orders?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 21:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Hedgehogs in SPAAAAACE...

In-Reply-To: <1845a0bb.34e3ec68@aol.com>

I like it!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 21:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In-Reply-To: <34E502A5.4505@edgenet.net>

Daniel,

> Actually, it doesn't.  Those rocks are in orbit and in order to
> alter their vectors you need to expend a lot of juice.  A friend
> of mine did some research at Naval Postgrad school concerning
> present day asteroid defense.  The verdict is available on the
> web as the first listing under the "Asteroid Defense" subject (so he
> says).  And what was that verdict you ask?  The verdict was:
>  
> We die.  All of us.
>  
> (If the rock is bigger than 100m across).  
>  
> All of the nukes humanity has ever made would stop a 1 km rock from
> doing the nasty on the whole planet.

If you catch it early enough, you may be able to nudge it just enough 
to make it miss. Breaking it into smaller bits *may* help. Yes, it 
means you get impacts over a larger area (which may do more damage), 
but if you're lucky many will be small enough to burn up in the 
atmosphere.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 21:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Marines (was: Re: US Marines)

In-Reply-To: <34E44A43.1AC745D3@uni-trier.de>

Volker,

> > ObTrav: How intense are the interservice rivalries in the 3rd Imperium. We
> > know in M:0 the nobility have a tradition of duelling. Might we expect
> Well they keep secrets from each other, Army and Navy intelligence
> sometimes work against each other (see: Signal GK). How far rivalry
> goes, i dont know, but i suppose it is rather peaceful, similar to the
> situation between the branches today (jokes and devaluation yes, maybe
> sometimes a barroom brawl, but no real fighting)

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. It's basically "my [service, regiment, 
ship (don't forget intraservice rivalry)] is better than yours." This can help 
to motivate troops - during the Falklands War, the (Royal) Marines and the 
Paras were basically racing each other across the island (on foot, carrying 
all their gear, fighting various battles along the way), both wanting to be 
the one to kick the Argentinians out of Port Stanley, and so prove 
themselves better than the other.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 21:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

In-Reply-To: <199802140857.BAA02652@Rt66.com>

Merrick,

> > any) they would try for and get in touch with the US before the second bomb
> > was dropped. IMO three days was too little time. How long would the US have
> > taken to make up its mind in similar circumstances?
>  
> They were told *before* either bomb was dropped to surrender. They
> chose not to. Bad move.

Hey, it's only 1 bomb...how much damage can it do...?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:11:58 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net> writes:
>
>Well, let me start by saying why we use them today.  They are
>
>comparatively 
>
>cheap compared to the price of a ship and can carry armament that can
>
>effectively "mission-kill" most capital ships in existence today.

True. But would they be as effective if they were only as fast as the big
ships?

You see, the problem with using present-day analogies for Traveller
ships/fighters is that it's comparing apples and oranges. The similar
accelerations of Traveller fighters mean that we should really be
comparing battleships and frigates, or battleships and gunboats.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:19:25 EST
From: Darth@aol.com
Subject: Jump Net Design Considerations

I haven't seen the FFS2 stuff yet (I played CT and MT ... dropped out a while,
and just got some of the T4 material), but regarding devices attached to a
ship's hull and the ship's jump net, here's my "wave."

The grid would have to be installed in the hull during construction. Depending
on the Jump factor of the ship, certain algorithms would be used during the
design process to calculate the most efficient matrix distribution for that
ship's physical design (higher jump numbers imply a "tighter weave" to
jumpspace).  Use enough Lanthanum for the hull net, but not too much.  For
certain applications, say combat vessels and long-range scout designs, you'd
probably over-design the net (so that the net continues to function in the
event the hull itself is damaged), but the goal is to install a net which uses
the least amount of Lantanum to get you a working jump drive.

I've always thought that the higher the jump number of the ship, the "thicker"
the diameter of the installed Lantanum wiring matrix (to punch throught the
"tighter weave" of the jumpspace). Higher jump numbers require a more "robust"
net with a tighter weave, so a thicker diameter wire, installed more densely
on the hull, would be used to construct the net. However, even at Jump-6, the
wiring would be no thicker than perhaps a coaxial cable, and of course not all
of the netting material would be pure Lantanum (core matrix, Lantanum,
shielding, etc.).

The net would be installed on the vessel's surface, or very close to it, in
order to facilitate the dissapation of energy when the jump is activated.
There's a great deal of energy being fed to the net when the ship enters jump,
so there's probably some level of EM shielding associated with the net as well
(don't want to fry the vessel's occupant's when you go to jump).

Most of the time the vessel's turret and exterior configurations would be
known the time of construction (as well as the placement of "empty" turrets),
so the design of the net would take these "protrusions" to the installed jump
field into consideration. And most devices installed onto a Jump-capable
starship would have some level of Lanthanum installed during construction,
with the intention of augmenting the jump grid rather than just throwing "dead
weight" onto the exterior of the hull.  I don't think these devices would
necessarily be required to be "hard-wired" into the ship's jump net proper,
but the Lanthanum in these devices would be sympathetic to the jump activation
and share the field effect of the net's activation at jump ("glowing" along
with the remainder of the ship's architectural details, per SOM).

After construction, the trials of the ship would give the engineering staff
insight into the unique characteristics of the ship's net.  They would perform
a minumum of 2 jumps at every jump-level the ship is capable of, and determine
the exact characteristics of the ship's net.  These values would then be made
available to the ship's computer (most likely physically hard-wired into ROH
[Read-Only Holocrystals]) to assist the ship's navigator in final jump
performance of the ship.

(In fact, in one gaming session an adventurer decided to "aquire" the jump net
matrix calculations from a competing shipyard, delaying jump certification of
a starship's design.  They won the contract ... because there were
"unexplained delays" in the other ship's certification.)

Just some ideas, 

  Darth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:44:23 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: My last comment on warfare

Use of force is never a solution? 

I disagree. Supposing I killed you. That would solve the problem of our
disagreeing about warfare, no? Permanently. 

More seriously: Sometimes armed conflict is the only way to resolve a
situation available to us. Once that conflict starts, then the search for
better weaponry begins. Escalation leads to the likes of nuclear weapons
and biotoxins. But where to draw the line? Is 1 10Kt warhead more repugnant
than 10 thousand tons of High Explosive? Same effect. 

Most people dread the fallout etc effects of nuclear explosives, and they
have a point. But we have nukes right now. And all the other tools of
warfare, too. They aren't going to go away unless we make them. Once we
don't need them any more they'll be thrown away. And not until.

You can read about this idea in my novel 'For The Greater Good' (plug!)

I can't handle the idea that a weapon is vile and evil. Weapons are the
tools of men. They are lumps of metal and chemicals, nothing more. They
cannot be undiscovered. We must make weapons obsolete by changing
ourselves. 

Until we make weapons unnecessary, weapons will always be necessary.

Until then, I stand ready to defend myself by whatever means are necessary.

Including nukes.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:20:35 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:05:00 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>However, what the US did was neither against international law (which is
>>the basis for a "war crime")

>Hmm... I may be wrong here, but don't international law have something
>about not targeting civilians?

Yeah, but targetting cities, and their industrial base, is OK.
Otherwise every nation in WWII would guilty of war crimes.
However, while I disagree with that idea, it (and the position
that all war is immoral) is at least consistent unlike attempt
to single you the US dropping of the atomic bomb.

>Certainly the US had a right to strike back. That's not the question. The
>question is whether they had the right to use nuclear weapons against two
>major cities brim full of civilians to do so.

The bombing of cities was accepted by all sides.  Even if one
wanted apply more modern values to it, one should do it consistently.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:12:43 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Plea for help!



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:00:24 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

DustyL wrote:

>One of the very few alcoholic drinks I can tolerate the taste of is
something
>called "Purple Passion".  It is Everclear;  I am not sure of the proof, but
it
>is not 200.  It tastes like grape juice, but I can never seem to remember
>finishing one...  :-)

Reminds me of "Trash Can Punch" from my University days.  To make it, you
take a 55 gallon trash can (washed well and disinfected and lined with a new
white can liner or 3).  In it, the night before, you put 5 gallons of
Everclear and half a bushel of pealed oranges.  Just before the party, add
20 cans of frozen grape juice concentrate, 20 liters of 7-up (or other clear
citrus soft drink), and as much water as is needed to make 50 gallons.

The reason you soaked the oranges the night before, was so they could soak
up lots of alcohol.  Many of the "respectable" types who wouldn't touch the
drink would eat the fruit.  The results were much the same.  Oddly, I
noticed that even if they woke up with a hangover the next day, they still
ate the oranges.  Go figure.

Actually, we had a trash can we used for nothing else, but it makes for some
mystery.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:08:45 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Not my last comment on warfare

> Including nukes.
> 
> MJD.


The decision has already been made for you.

Luckily things have been pretty boring for the last few years, but this
is just a lull. I wouldn't worry about global peace blossoming very
soon.  As soon as the American market/worldwide economy crashes ugly
heads will rear again.

Then somebody will again realize what militaries are for-because they'll
be scared shitless.  Believe it or not some folks just don't like the
West, but cant really say diddly about it...yet.

The 3I is a realistic government.  It fights for the percieved
betterment of its people thru its own prejudices and conceptions. It has
fought and will fight wars.

Don't forget the Vilani are 80% of the Imperial population, and thier
military tradition is one of no holds barred/no prisoners. Imperials
play for keeps, with any toys they have.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:31:09 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Interesting. Sounds a little like 18th. Century Enlightenment-Jeffersonian
> Deism. It might be workable, but it would be blasphemous to devout Christians,
> Muslims, and  Jews.

I think that after contact, all of these faiths will be struggling to adapt as
fast as they can and trying to keep as many in the fold as possible.  I'm
particularly thinking of Stranger In A Strange Land by Robert Heinlein and the
impact that a new 'galactic' religion might have upon the older, more established
religions.  The Contact context (apologies for alliteration) focuses the potential
for such a crisis.  To me, it says that the good ol' religions will adapt or die,
thus adaption.  (For my own personal contemplation, a potential reconciliation of
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is interesting to think about.  While I'm no
religious scholar <shudder>,  I have heard some describe Jesus' actions (not his
words mind you, but his actions), as those of a good Jew. And I am intrigued by
some subtle ideas in Simon Green's Deathstalker novels about an Imperial Church of
Christ the Warrior - members of this church are described as battle-dress wearing
clergy.  Somthing to think about.  That this setting of novels also incorporated
Psionics, leads me to conclude that it was, at the very least, heavily influenced
by Traveller.

> (If anyone in your group is one of the above, go easy).
> This does lead to the interesting conflict between this Deist religion, and
> more "traditional" ones in the Traveller realm (though I don't know how canon
> would treat this).

  Luckily for me, I only play with my brother and a close friend of ours. Suffice
to say that the only religious seremonies any of us have attended have been under
duress from parents who were trying to make up for their own lack of faith.  Its
really hard to be an alter boy for mass when you think you're wasting your time.
And the Bishop doesn't appreciate religious commentary from a 9 year old.  Believe
me!  I've learned my lesson.  Keep your head down and your mouth shut!

I hadn't considered Jeffersonian Deism, most probably because I haven't the
faintest clue what it is.  I vaguely understand what Deism is, but when I think of
Jefferson, I think of his Monticello and how he got the triglyphs and metopes
wrong (vague ancient Greek architectual reference - and he really did get them
wrong.)

Concerning the core philosphy of such a church as I contemplate:  in discussions
in private mail and with friends (yes, Face-to-Face), I've realized that its going
to be very difficult to have a cohesive doctrine.  This supports what Volker has
said, but in a different way.  Here's the analysis:  to be effective, such a
church is going to have to be able to incorporate/subsume/assimilate the belief
systems of newly contacted worlds.  That means an opened ended system of belief
that is arguably more tolerant than any current earthbound large-scale religion.
This has two consequences:  first, it vastly limits the dramatic potential of
heresy, inquisitions, etc.  Second, it offers little in support of Imperial
expansion, because if a newly contacted world's belief system (assuming monolithic
religious systems  - which, after the Rule Of Man, is not an unreasonable
position) can be readily reconciled with official church dogma, no one is worse
off or even much better off in religious terms, so the whole issue seems to moot
out.

Fey!  Why bother in the first place.  Good question.  I have no answer other than
that I think that the idea of Battle-Dress wearing Battle-Chaplains of the
Imperial Church of Sylea (or Some Such) is just to cool a picture to dismiss.  Or
perhaps you might enjoy more the picture of an Inquisitor (the highest rank an NCO
in the Religious Military Orders can aspire to), investigating the theft of an
artefact of the Ancients from the Relicquary of the Church - battle scarred and
long trained in command, as well as intimidation, perception and interrogation,
Inquisitors make even devout aetheists wonder where there mommy is and if she can
make the bad man go away.  (there!  you see why I can't let this idea die?).

I guess my real problem is that I have no good reason for putting an intolerant,
powerful and independant organization into the Third Imperium (though I am very
mindful of someone's - forgoet whos - ideas about Cleon being perceived as a God
in very Lo-Tech cultures).

Ever get the feeling you've bitten off more than you can chew?

Very strange feelimg for me and my above-average gut.

:-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:35:36 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Unfortunately,

Part of my friend's study revelaed that you would have to catch it 9-10
orbits "out" to give it this sort of nudge.  We don't have the
capability to do that.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:38:31 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 08:04 AM 14/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Make no mistake, the Army hs the largest air force of all the services.
>They are called helocopters and are ultrabad.
>
>However, there is an aggreement chopping all fixed wing air to the
>USAF.  I too have no idea why the red headed stepchild handmedown A-10
>is not pushed to a loving Army.  I'd go in a heartbeat to be with the
>troopies.
>
Because that would set a dangerous precdent. The Army would probably start
demanding juristiction over every aeroplane that looked even remotely like
a battlefield support plane - let's start with the F111's & F16's.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:59:55 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)

At 10:32 AM 14/02/98 -0500, Rob Prior wrote:
>Then there was the Ghurka who held a position all night against repeated
>assaults by a Japanese company. While I forget most of the details, I
>remember that after his right hand was blown off by a hand grenade (he'd
>been throwing them back), he got "very very angry" and counter-attacked.
>The company retreated.
>
>The Ghurkas, like the RM and SAS, go out of their way to create these
>legends, then live up to them.
>
>Also, they have been shabbily treated by the British, so that many widows
>and invalids are in financial need. There is a fund you can contribute to
>- and who knows, having the Ghurkas as friends could be handy one day!
>
They aren't the only ones who've been treated shabbily by the Brits in the
post-WWII period.


- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:47:13 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe AND culture

But, I like to think that there is an 'Imperial'
> culture that will exist in 'startowns', fuedal technocracies, and the like, a
> culture that the PCs will constantly run into again and again...
> 
> What type of stuff is going on in everyone elses' heads?
> 
> Semo


I think there is an "Imperial Culture" also, but the various worlds are
just plain anarchy. Every thing is there because the tech level varies
from drums to grav focussed e/m psedoholos.

The Imperial Culture IMTU(hehheh) is a culture directly descended by the
people who own the starlanes but not the worlds.  For instance,
Kaggushus may be a very Imperial world, wheras a nearby system may abhor 
Imperial standards.

I beleive "Imperial" culture cues directly from the nobility and hence
the Emperor.  Probably strong military(Naval) traditions there also. 
To be "Imperial" would be rather like us, the Traveller abroad.  The
characters from the old DGP books are classic Imperials, albeit backward
and from the Marches.  An example of a "non-Imperial" could be a citizen
of a world deeply emeshed in its own ancient culture.  They would look
at disgust on Imperials.  That would make Imps sort of like people of
the West, just more conservative.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:46:32 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 08:14 AM 14/02/98 -0600, Deadeye wrote:
>>   were to a thousand-dollar missile.
>> 
>>
>
>Notice there is still an Air Force,and for a reason.  I got shot at by 
>guns and sams in the gulf and had a lot of friends that did too.  They
>are not the endall of air war and we have measures, called "wild
>weasels" or SEAD that effectively shuts them down.
>
>Thousand dollar?  One of those things, depending on models, is upwards
>of 1 million dollars itself.
>
I don't disagree with you there - some sams probably cost more than some of
the cheaper attack aircraft out there e.g. Su7s and MiG19s. And I certianly
don't think sams make air forces obselete, any more than ATGWs and LAWs
make tanks useless (more's the pity, I'd make my old job so much easier).

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:55:07 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

At 04:05 PM 14/02/98 +0100, Hans Rancke wrote:
>I would change that to "unless you have good reason to believe that the
>enemy will do it again". I quite agree that a population should not
>allow itself to be destroyed rather than to break some of its own rules.
>That's why I'm not sure that using nuclear bombs on Japan couldn't be
>justified with a "lesser of two evils" argument. But I'm convinced
>that using then were "an evil". Maybe a lesser of two, but definitely
>an evil. Just as the Allied terror-bombings of German cities that were
>no longer military targets was an evil. 

Actually more recent studies show that the German cities (or rather the
industries in them) wern't affected that much by the bombing, so they were
still military targets. However given the lack of effect of the bombing and
enormous colateral damage done by it the continuation of it was still
wrong. What's more the British experience and analysis of recon, escaped
POW reprots, etc pointed to this during the war, and there was strong
opposition on both practical and moral grounds within the allies military
which was ignored. 


- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #170
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 14 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 171



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
CE vs. AD
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)
Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders
Luriani (proposal)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #169
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)
[T98#166] Character Names
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)
Re: Belters
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)
Re: My last comment on warfare
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: To Loren and anyone else that can answer: ? about "Flashback"
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: Nuking Japan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:13:21 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 03:22 PM 14/02/98 GMT0, Andrew M J Boulton wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19980212200518.342776bc@mail.hooked.net>
>
>Douglas,
>
>> What's the old line?  "Fighter pilots make movies, ground attack pilots
>> make history?"  Speaking as a grunt, I'd rahter see one A-10 over the
>> battlefield than hear about thirty knights of the air, in glorious single
>> combat, defeating the wiley foe.
>
>Even if the wiley foe in question are enemy ground attack aircraft coming 
>to bomb the **** out of you?

I willingly admit that there's a place for fighters and fighter jocks, I
just wish that they didn't end up dominating air force policy. I don't know
about the Russian/Soviet air establishments (they had national air defence
in a seperate force from  the battlefield Frontal Aviation, anyway), but
elsewhere this always seems to be the case, blast it.

ObTrav: How much would the 3I's policy of owning the space between systems,
and leaving the internal affairs of a planet to its occupants (once they've
all become good little consumers, anyway), and the shift that this would
bring in Navy ship design and tactical thinking towards ship-ship combat
have hurt the 3I's military efforts in the Pacification Campaigns?


- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:40:08 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

At 04:11 PM 14/02/98 -0500, Rob Prior wrote:
>Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net> writes:
>>
>>Well, let me start by saying why we use them today.  They are
>>
>>comparatively 
>>
>>cheap compared to the price of a ship and can carry armament that can
>>
>>effectively "mission-kill" most capital ships in existence today.
>
>True. But would they be as effective if they were only as fast as the big
>ships?
>
>You see, the problem with using present-day analogies for Traveller
>ships/fighters is that it's comparing apples and oranges. The similar
>accelerations of Traveller fighters mean that we should really be
>comparing battleships and frigates, or battleships and gunboats.
>
In a supplement for the game _Space Opera_ there was a piece on this, in
which it was pointed out that the best analogy was with the MTBs of WWII.
Unfortunatly they then gave them special bonuses toevasion that nothing
else got that turned them back into the equivalents of aircraft.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:56:14 EST
From: Darth@aol.com
Subject: CE vs. AD

Regarding this whole thread ...

I don't see how folks (er "sophonts") can fail to understand the meanings that
other sophonts attach to words when we see discussions such as this.

I think it's of value, because it clearly demonstates that biases and
behavioral characteristics can form, literally, a subconscious substate over
intelligence that boggles the mind.

Words (or, the meanings sophonts attach to discrete units used to communicate
with others, inter- and extra-species) can really get folks rilled up, ne?

  Darth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:00:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

 
> > > OTOH, maybe the meson decay happens along a line segment, rather than at a
> > > point in space.  If this is true, the line segment might completely
> > 
> > I think it isn4t a line, as deep meson stations would not be feasible
> > then (cutting a way up to the surface and destroying anything directly
> > above...)
> > I favor the point in space theory
> 
> True, if the line segment begins at the emitter.  But what if it is about
> a hundred meters long, beginning and ending in the vicinity of the target?
> Which one more closely models the canonical meson effects?

Because there has to be a physics nullifier in place to make meson
weapons work as avertized, this is obviously a little up for grabs.

Decay times are half-lives. The beam will decay along its flight
path. The direct force control that is available when MGs pop up as
weapons must be what allows them to do what they do in traveller,
but I would say that there is definitely a volume of space along the
beam path where most of the action takes place.

That said, I've always argued that there will be just enough gammas
emitted along the beam path that it is possible to use it to find at
least the line of flight of the beam. Get a few values and you can
nail the deep meson site. The gammas formed from decay will have a
preference to travel in the beam direction, I think, so being the
ship that takes this sensor data might be a dangerous job...

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:04:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters vs. Battleships & Battle Riders

 
> You see, the problem with using present-day analogies for Traveller
> ships/fighters is that it's comparing apples and oranges. The similar
> accelerations of Traveller fighters mean that we should really be
> comparing battleships and frigates, or battleships and gunboats.

This is the key point to use modern naval units for comparison.

Ignore aircraft altogether and it models decently well to traveller.
"Fighters" launched in traveller might be like a CV that carried
Osas instead of aircraft.

I chimed in with a "me too" here because a lot of the
misunderstandings involving fighters in traveller revolve around
this issue.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:03:28 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Luriani (proposal)

Okay here is my rough proposal for the Luriani:

A minor Human race they evolved on Derri/Fornast(2316) a medium sized
water world with a standard atmosphere. I plan on making them
semi-aquatic (eg they do not have gills, but can retain O2 in fat cells
allowing them to remain submerged for extended periods). I'm thinking of
a "grand voyaging" culture based on many islands (some similarities to
the polynesians with elements of arabic and some of my own ideas thrown
in for good measure). A strong tradition of hosptiality and honour, with
a warrior class. They received Jump drive from the Vilani, established
a number of colonies (no formal interstellar gov't more a loose coalition)
as an extension of their voyaging culture.

Prime difference from "standard" humans: Right brain dominant with language
based in the portion of the brain that deals with singing and music rather
than the classic speach centres.

I should be able to have a decent write up in three to four days.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:16:50 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #169

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) wrote:
>Well, IMHO the pursuit of war criminals is a bit of a joke, since it is
>always the victor that claims the right to punish the loser for war
>crimes-- *regardless* of the own actions of their own country.

As I recall (and my memory may be playing tricks on me), several German
officers were charged with the crime of waging 'unrestricted submarine 
warfare', and successfully defended themselves from this charge, based
on the fact that the US Navy did exactly the same thing* to the Japanese.

* Unrestricted sumbarine warfare, that is: torpedoing merchant ships without
  warning.



wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:17:29 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

At 04:00 PM 14/02/98 -0700, Merrick wrote:
> 
>> > > OTOH, maybe the meson decay happens along a line segment, rather
than at a
>> > > point in space.  If this is true, the line segment might completely
>> > 
>> > I think it isn4t a line, as deep meson stations would not be feasible
>> > then (cutting a way up to the surface and destroying anything directly
>> > above...)
>> > I favor the point in space theory
>> 
>> True, if the line segment begins at the emitter.  But what if it is about
>> a hundred meters long, beginning and ending in the vicinity of the target?
>> Which one more closely models the canonical meson effects?
>
>Because there has to be a physics nullifier in place to make meson
>weapons work as avertized, this is obviously a little up for grabs.
>
>Decay times are half-lives. The beam will decay along its flight
>path. The direct force control that is available when MGs pop up as
>weapons must be what allows them to do what they do in traveller,
>but I would say that there is definitely a volume of space along the
>beam path where most of the action takes place.
>
>That said, I've always argued that there will be just enough gammas
>emitted along the beam path that it is possible to use it to find at
>least the line of flight of the beam. Get a few values and you can
>nail the deep meson site. The gammas formed from decay will have a
>preference to travel in the beam direction, I think, so being the
>ship that takes this sensor data might be a dangerous job...
>
I've always felt that while most of the meson's would decay at the target
point some would decay a little earlier and a little later, in a bell
curve. This would give an ellipsoid blast pattern (given some beam
dispersion), enlongated along a line drawn between the gun and target. With
measurements of the beams shape and power, etc after a shot or two a would
be possible to locate the firer.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:50:42 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#166] Character Names

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:14:52 -0500, kenji@accessone.com (Kenji
Schwarz) wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote up a great bit on Vilani naming customs for the TravLang
>list a few months ago... Jeff, if you have it handy, it'd be great to see
>it again -- my hard drive is even messier than my desktop, or I could do it
>myself...

Herewith...

Much of Vilani culture was drastically affected by the conquest
of the Vilani empire by the Rule of Man.  Some traditions were
banned, others fell out of use, still others were preserved, but
only privately (cf the Jewish traditions of many Spanish and
Portuguese Christians - those who are called "hidden Jews",
"crypto-Jews", or "Marranos").  Vilani personal names fit into
the third category.

Normally, a Vilani name is given in two or occasionally three
parts: Eneri Lentuli, Ashi Kaagira Samiibukun, et cetera.  In
reality, there are five components to a Vilani name:

The first component is the personal name, corresponding to the
personal or given name in most Solomani traditions.  This name is
what is used in routine informal address, and may itself be
shortened or modified into what most Anglic-speakers would call a
"nickname" for use in extremely informal contexts.

The second component, if it exists, is also a personal name.
This name is generally derived either from the personal name
(first component) of an honored relative (usually, but not
invariably, deceased) or from some desirable quality of
personality, or from a person, an animal, or a thing that
possesses that quality.  This corresponds to the "middle name" in
most Solomani European traditions.  This component may be changed
at will by the bearer; it is also not unknown for a component of
this class to be bestowed on a person by companions (compare the
"earning" of a nickname, TAC-code, or "warname" in some military
and paramilitary organizations).  This component of the name is
traditionally Vilani, but need not be if the bearer wishes
otherwise.

The third component indicates what most Solomani would think of
as "ethnicity".  In reality, it is the name of the secure area
that the community lived in prior to the termination of the
Ancient war machines on Vland.  This name is generally associated
with identifiable physical characteristics (as when a Solomani
"looks Italian", for example), and is generally not used except
in those contexts of the utmost formality.  Assimilated Vilani
(those who do not trace their ancestry to Vland, but who have
adopted Vilani culture) generally use the name of their home
planet, transliterated according to Vilani practice, for this
component.

The fourth component is a family or clan name.  The distinction
between "family" and "clan" is not as clear-cut in Vilani
tradition as in Terran traditions; as a great deal of mutual
support was needed for survival on ancient Vland, extended
families staying together became the norm.  This is used in the
same context as a "family name" or "last name" in the most common
Solomani conventions.  Family/clan names are _never_
occupational; this usage is the fifth component.

The fifth component is derived from the caste that the person is
a member of.  In some senses, this corresponds to occupational
surnames in Solomani European traditions; in other ways, it
corresponds to a rank or title.  This component is not added to
the name until maturity, when the caste is selected; it is
lengthened or otherwise modified over time to show relative
experience or knowledge, although the root does not change.

In most contexts, a Vilani's name will be given as first-fourth
or first-second-fourth; friends and family will call him first or
a modification; comrades-in-arms will call him first or second.
In business, if the name is given in one of these forms, the
Vilani will generally be addressed as fourth, with an appropriate
title (e.g., "Mr", "Mrs", the Vilani equivalents, etc.) preceding
it.  On occasion, in a business context, the Vilani will give his
name as fourth-fifth; in such a case, it is proper to address him
in exactly that manner, with no additional titles.

If the Vilani is being created a peer of the Imperium, his full
name would be used and placed on the letters-patent.

Example:  The Vilani's full name is

	Eneri Wisdom Irkira Managudeli Shugilamar

His friends and family will generally call him "Eneri"

His ancestry is from the Vilani minor continent of Irka Ir, which
only had a single secure refuge.

When he served in the Navy, his shipmates gave him the name
"Lightning", and would call him that as often as they did
"Eneri".  He changed to "Wisdom" upon mustering out.

He would probably introduce himself to you as "Eneri Managudeli".

A (Solomani) business contact would call him "Mr Managudeli",
unless Eneri has given his name as "Manadugeli Shugilamar", in
which case he would be addressed in full in that manner.

He would probably give his name as "Manadugeli Shugilamar" to a
Vilani business associate, and would be called that way by them.

When his military record catches up with him, and it comes to the
Emperor's notice that he should be knighted for his actions in
saving an entire squadron of Imperial Navy ships from certain
destruction, the letters-patent would award the knighthood to
"Eneri Wisdom Irkira Managudeli Shugilamar".

Thoughts?  Quibbles?  Shrieks of agony?

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:34:56 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:51:02 -0500, you wrote:

>Actually more recent studies show that the German cities (or rather the
>industries in them) wern't affected that much by the bombing, so they were
>still military targets. However given the lack of effect of the bombing and

Actually, *recent* (say last 10 years) studies show that bombing was *decisive*
in destroying German Industry ... mainly through forcing a dispersal and then
cutting the transport net to shreds so that the dispersed sites could not be
supplied and could not ship their products. They also show that Bombing of the
transport net closed down German industry around six weeks before the end of the
war, and that for the six or eight months before that had been increasingly
decisive in its course and conduct.

The problem was that it took such a long time to set up the long drop and short
rope that many people after the war (including those doing the Strategic Bombing
Survey) failed to fully appreciate exactly what happened.

Many still do not, but, increasingly, studies are showing the decisiveness of
the campaign.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:46:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

 
> I've always felt that while most of the meson's would decay at the target
> point some would decay a little earlier and a little later, in a bell
> curve. This would give an ellipsoid blast pattern (given some beam
> dispersion), enlongated along a line drawn between the gun and target. With
> measurements of the beams shape and power, etc after a shot or two a would
> be possible to locate the firer.

Yeah. I was talking about this on trav-tech, and it was mentioned by
somebody on the TML a while back, but meson screen interactions
could be interesting.
\
The beam is decayed a little early by the screen, but even so, the
ship takes a nasty gamma bath--a guy I play(ed) traveller with
always had MG near misses rock the ship like a nuke going off nearby
for this reason. I kinda like it :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:42:59 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Belters

Shadow wrote:


>It takes a fairly large body to have a core (be it rock in an icy/CHON
>body, or metal in a stony body. So the core is going to be a bit too
>large to haul off in one chunk. It'll likely be hundreds of meters
>across.

Do you know exactly how large?  If not, would you be willing to hazard a
guess?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:26:35 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
> > I've always felt that while most of the meson's would decay at the target
> > point some would decay a little earlier and a little later, in a bell
> > curve. This would give an ellipsoid blast pattern (given some beam
> > dispersion), enlongated along a line drawn between the gun and target. With
> > measurements of the beams shape and power, etc after a shot or two a would
> > be possible to locate the firer.
> 
> Yeah. I was talking about this on trav-tech, and it was mentioned by
> somebody on the TML a while back, but meson screen interactions
> could be interesting.
> \
> The beam is decayed a little early by the screen, but even so, the
> ship takes a nasty gamma bath--a guy I play(ed) traveller with
> always had MG near misses rock the ship like a nuke going off nearby
> for this reason. I kinda like it :-)
> 
> -Merrick


I was the fellow who brought up the effect of MG and M Screen
interaction.

The only way for the tech to operate as described is by using 
decay inhibiter (eletroweak force) bottle effect described in the 
SOM.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 01:26:30 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

Clark Crawford wrote:

>> > OTOH, maybe the meson decay happens along a line segment, rather than at a
>> > point in space.  If this is true, the line segment might completely
>> 
>> I think it isnt a line, as deep meson stations would not be feasible
>> then (cutting a way up to the surface and destroying anything directly
>> above...)
>> I favor the point in space theory
>
>True, if the line segment begins at the emitter.  But what if it is about
>a hundred meters long, beginning and ending in the vicinity of the target?
>Which one more closely models the canonical meson effects?

IMHO the canonical meson effects are more closely modeled by the point in space 
theory. Remember the first contact with the TL17 robots of Sabmiqys (my spelling is 
probably wrong). The planetary meson guns let the scout ships explode inside out 
without any sign of firing.

However, _real_ world meson guns (if they could be built) would would have their 
meson decay happen along a line segment, making any kind of deep meson gun 
completely unfeasable. This is because if you adjust the half time of the mesons by 
accelerating them to relativistic speeds, all you have done is to alter the probability 
curve for the decay, since half time means the time where half of the particles in 
question have decayed. There is no way of exactly knowing the _life_ time of an 
individual particle.

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:34:11 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: My last comment on warfare

MJ Dougherty schrieb:
> 
> Use of force is never a solution?
> 
> I disagree. Supposing I killed you. That would solve the problem of our
> disagreeing about warfare, no? Permanently.
That-yes, but you would have to live with the consequences, go to jail,
face my friends/family, etc. wholl want revenge. Also, others will take
up my cause, making me a matryr. So now youll face more people with my
attitude, your problem not solved.
Seriously, believing violence with stop violence just doesnt cut it.
There will always be resentment in the long run, causing even greter
problems.
My countries history is a good example. When WW1 was lost, the terms
Germany had to fulfill were devastation, practacally ruining the
country, this opened the path for Hitler to take power. I truly believe
hat had the victors of WW1 been more civil in their demands, Hitler
would have stood no chance at all.
After WW2 the Allies helped us get back on our feet. This time around we
bacame you most faithful allies. Somehow shows that revenge and
retaliation are not always wise.
Same thing with violence to stop a problem. (Excepting of course
self-defense and stopping an agressor)

> I can't handle the idea that a weapon is vile and evil. Weapons are the
The weapon itself isnt: Using it is!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:12:19 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

SemoFetus@aol.com schrieb:

> In the United States, christianity has been growing by leaps and bounds over
> the last couple of years as well.  
Not growing, the numbers remain the same. The CC and allies of them just
got more aggressive and vocal the last years, thereby gaining in
influence. No new Christians are beeing converted in the US, AFAIK!

>  Religion, on a base level, is explaining the unexplainable.  In
> today's world, we place a lot of faith on science as having explained
> everything.  Of course, there's always something that comes along screaming
> down the road that is unexplainable...
Which is one of many points which convinced me Religion is a hoax. When
thunder was unexplaned, there were thunder gods. The sun was a god at
times, as was the ocean, the trees. I think just because i cant explain
something doesnt mean i have to believe it to be divine. We just dont
understand it yet, but at some point we will. The unexplainable today is
the explained of tomorrow. Its a scientific approach, which totally
ruins religion for me ;-)

> However, the Third Imperium has one very big something that the layman can
> actually hear about, and possibly see, in action that completely circumvents
> pretty much the rest of the universe.  J-Drive.  There's no explanation, it
> just works.
WE have no explanation for JD, who says people in the 3I dont know how
it works? I believe they do and just because we dont have an
explanation (If we had, wed be flying to the stars within a year!)
doent mean people i the 3I have no concept of Jump. Unless you find
something contradiction in canon, thats how i see it!
> 
> In addition, you have the ancients.  Who are the ancients?  Why did they do
> what they did?  Etc...
Which spawned some cults (see:Church of the Chosen ones), but left
others cold, who go from the scientific approach, taking the questions
you posed above and started to find out (see many Ancients-experts in
various sources of canon)
> 
> There are a lot of questions to be explained in the Traveller universe, and
Which ones (that would allow divine attribution)

> religions are going to step in and answer these questions.  Personally, I
> think religion would color a Traveller game most effectively, if used in the
> right dosages.  After all, there is a religion behind every religious
No contest, religion is out there, but on a smaller scale than you
think:
No State Religion of the 3I, no officially endorsed religion, no
religion controlling most of the imperium, no single religion greater
than say 1% of the entire imperial population.

> dictatorship.  I think the dominant religion in the Imperium would be of
> Vilani origin (unless some time in the Terra's conquest fueled mass
> conversions, which is not entirely impossible).
Here i disagree: The solomani didnt even have enough people to
efficiently control all Vilani worlds, they depended on the Vilani
bureaucracy, which in time caused their downfall. Canon also states that
entire starsystems were often controlled by a single terran officer in
the beginning. Even if the 5% of the human population of earth today
went out to control Vilani space, each system would only have 25.000
Terrans to take control of one world (assuming the Vilani empire had
11.000 systems, as the 3I). 25.000 to take control of a world! Not many
spare men to convert heathens, and there wasnt a focus on that, so
those people were rather used for their main purpose: Taking control,
and keeping it! 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:43:34 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: To Loren and anyone else that can answer: ? about "Flashback"

ichael D. Peters schrieb:
> 
> I recently recieved a copy of COACC and noticed an ad in the back for a
> MegaTraveller adventure called "Flashback" that chronicaled the adventures
(snipped)
> on, however I haven't seen it listed on any of the Trav. OPBL (Out of Print
> Book Lists, practicing for next years contest ;^). Was it produced and does
> anyone on the list have a copy?
This topic came up about a year ago...
No it was never published, but Marc said it was planned for sometime in
the future, when more Milieux are out back then. Dont know about the
current status though...
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:51:43 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

James Lindsay schrieb:

Steve Daniels WWII deaths of Jews and Sowiets snipped.
 
> Oh, now *that* was a real smart thing to bring up.  I suggest you hang
> around for a few more posts because things might get a little ugly after
> that last comment...
No they wont. I replied to him privately and made my point clear.
Though both things (nuking japan and the holocaust) happened in the same
war, they do not have anything to do with each other. Both were evils of
the same war, but cant be compared with each other. 
Anyway, most Germans have learned a lesson from this war, to watch what
is happening, form an own opinion and never let anything like this
happen again here!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:04:29 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:05:00 +0100 (MET), you wrote:



>Certainly the US had a right to strike back. That's not the question. The
>question is whether they had the right to use nuclear weapons against two
>major cities brim full of civilians to do so. 

Remember that in 1945 the stigma against nuclear weapons didn't exist
like it does now. We had firebombed so many Japanese cities there were
few left to attack, and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in
the process. Poison gas was seriously considered if we had had to
invade the main islands, which would have killed hundreds of thousands
of Japanese as well. It was considered that the use of the atomic
bombs would hasten the end of the war, which would be beneficial to
both sides by this time.
 
>Basically my objections boils down to my belief in the concept of a
>difference between civilians and military. If one dosen't believe in
>such a difference, then I agree that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
>legitimate targets for nuclear bombardment. If one does believe in
>such a difference, the question becomes more complicated.

All the warring parties felt that attacking civilian targets was a
legitimate use of strategic air power. The Germans did it, as did the
British and Americans. Douhet's philosophy was shown in WWII to be
incorrect, but that did not stop the strategic bomber generals from
doing it anyway.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #171
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 172



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [T98#166] Character Names
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #169
Vegan PCs
Re: Any opinions on "Aliens Archive"
Re: Military Chaplins
Re: Pern is Traveller
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)
Re: [T98#166] Character Names
Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)
Care Package
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: GURPS Traveller
Mail
Re: Keith Laumer and Bolos
IMNSHO, IIRC, IMTU, ETC
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: My last comment on warfare
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Null development in key areas
3D combat
Re: Belters
Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan)
Re: Care Package

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:12:11 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [T98#166] Character Names

At 23:50 1998-02-14 GMT, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>Normally, a Vilani name is given in two or occasionally three
>parts: Eneri Lentuli, Ashi Kaagira Samiibukun, et cetera.  In
>reality, there are five components to a Vilani name:

<huge snip of very interesting post>

>Thoughts?  Quibbles?  Shrieks of agony?

A wonderful work. I will certainly use this in my games. Being a player new
to Traveller, I need every well-written piece of culture information I can
get. This is certainly one of those pieces.

The only shrieks of agony this will produce in my gaming group will come
from us trying to pronounce Vilani in a proper way :-)


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Linkping, Sweden)
E-mail: jenry023@student.liu.se
UIN: 3844745   Get ICQ at http://www.mirabilis.com
Homepage: http://spacejens.ml.org
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:46:56 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

Semo (the Fetus) asked:

>What is the state of
>entertainment in the Traveller universe?
Terra
Have you considered that we (Terrans c. 1998) are studying/enjoying music
that is as old as the recording systems we have designed to preserve it?  We
have "music" that is over 2600 years old, that I know of.

Even through the dark ages/middle ages/medieval period, we as a culture
managed to hold on to the music and drama of previous eras.  (Yes the
Byzantines helped.)  So, I would be surprised if revivals of various forms
and periods were uncommon.  Perhaps the highest form of music or drama in M0
would be what we call classical.

In _Morning Star_ (or was the _Evening Star_), they had a reproduction of
"The Globe Theatre" which put on the works of William Shakespeare.  I should
think that type of thing would be quite common.  Who knows what periods
between now and then would also be revived.

I can just see the Imperial Fleet cruising into battle with the intercom
blasting _Flight of The Valkyries_ (or maybe _Flight of the Bumble Bees_),
or a space opera with The Beetles playing the theme music.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:36:41 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #169

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) asked:
>Getting back to Traveller, when did the Imperial Rules of War evolve? 

In Classic Traveller, the "Imperial Rules of War" were a set of guidelines 
for mercenaries operating in frontier and less-stable areas of the Imperium.  
It is well-known that the Imperium would intervene in conflicts where 
'significant' economic damage is being done.  

The "Rules of War" were guidelines for staying out of trouble.  Weapons of
Mass destruction (specifically nuclear weapons, but presumably other types
of weapons that can cause similar devastation, including deadfall attacks
and biowarfare) were virtually certain to trigger Imperial intervention.
Any significant damage to people or property of non-combatant worlds (or
nations, in the case of Balkanized planets) would also trigger an
intervention, as would "significant" damage to infrastructre or significant 
civilian casualties on the part of the combatant nations.

>When were they codified?  

They've never been codified, and were not a part of Imperial law.  The
Imperium reserved the right to intervene whenever and wherever it felt
the need to, and therefore the Rules of War were never codified.



wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:25:25 -0500
From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
Subject: Vegan PCs

Hi
    I am considering running a campaign in the Solmani Rim area and thought
about developing the Vegans as a possible player character race.  Before I
do this I was wondering if anyone has already done this?  If not any
suggestions, comments, or warnings of impending doom concerning this
endeavor would be welcome.

Thanks 

Hugh 

Hugh Johnson    mailto:ratling@csrlink.net   <:8}}}---

"Anything that happens, happens.  Anything that, in happening, causes
something else to happen, causes something else to happen.  Anything that,
in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.  It doesn't
necessarily do it in chronological order, though."      -- Douglas Adams,
Mostly Harmless

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:10:00 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Any opinions on "Aliens Archive"

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:03:55 -0800, J-Man wrote:

> > I just picked up "Aliens Archive" yesterday and was wondering if any of you
> > biology dudes out there can care to fill me in as to how "possible" some of
> > the aliens are.  Did Tim Brown even have a clue what he was talking about
> > when he wrote it, or does much of it actually make sense?
> 
> Run some by me, I could tell you.  I studied real world Xenobiology a
> few years back in order to learn what I could about 'creating' aliens
> for my RPG.

Hmmm... the physical and psychological descriptions of each are many
paragraphs long, so it would require a lot of typing on my part-- time that
I do not have, unfortunately.  Maybe the next time you're staring at the
Traveller display at your FLGS...

Thanks anyway.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 02:41:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Re: Military Chaplins

On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:23:56 Douglas E. Berry<dberry@hooked.net> Wrote...
> I question your comment about the military justifying their actions on
> a religious basis.  At least in the US Army, we did what we did because
> we had volunteered, and were subject to orders.  American troops have
> fine-tuned BS detectors, and appeals to a higher moral level will send
> the needle of the scale.
    True enough for troops from a modern Secular State, I don't think that
applies in the Iranian forces or other States where Religion is Seriously
Important. ;) Remember that the Secular State with seperation of church and
state is a fairly recent thing and Americans are pretty unusual in being so
secular.  The majority of the wars of history have been fought over, for or on
the pretext of religion after all. ;)

> Funny, I was never motivated by religious feelings...  Take for example
> a Virasian Chaplain addressing Marines  "Well men, good luck, and remember
> if you die here, so far from Dlan, your souls will roast in hell.  Amen."
    "Slay them all, God will know his own." - Said by the Bishop with the
Crusaders relieving the Siege of the christian city of Acre under siege by
Muslim forces which had forced a breach and the Crusader commander complained
that his troops would be unable to tell Christian from Muslim if he attacked.
    History is filled with exactly this sort of insanity motivating troops.
Remember the curse?  "Bear my name into Hell so they know who will be coming
after you!"

> I think you overstate the importance of religion to a soldier.
    For modern, Western, Secular states and populations like our I'm sure
you're right.  But we are not necessarily the wave of the future you know. ;)

>> So that would mean Military Chaplans of some sort.  So how do we handle
>> them?
> The same way that soldiers do.  Ignore them.
    Problem is that for some societies/cultures you'll be unable to do that.
In others you'll have a soldiers religion or the troops will believe themselves
on a holy crusade/war for their Faith.  Remember this is TRAVELLER, it's not
going to all be generic late twentieth century secularism. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 02:41:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Re: Pern is Traveller

On 09 Feb 1998 11:28 EST "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> Wrote...
> I was explaining parts of Traveller to my new wife (who knew I had
> a Traveller fetish, but only recently has started asking questions
> about it (how come all of a sudden I feel like a member of a cult,
> bent on converting all to my point of view?)), when we realized that
> _Dragonriders of Pern_ has nothing in it that is non-Traveller
> compatible.  There is sublight drive, a lost colony, bioengineering
> and telepathy psionics.  It could be purebred Traveller!
    Not sublight drive actually.  The book in which she covers the initial
colonization attempt makes it clear they are using an FTL drive.  However the
distance from Pern to the main area of Human civilization is so great that it
took years of FTL flight just to reach Pern and that the initial colonists were
essentially on their own and wanted it that way!

    Hmmm!  Just had a thought actually.  The initial colonists of Pern were
leaving behind an Interstellar civilization that had just won a HUGE war.  They
were sick of the fighting and struggle and wanted to start again.  In the
Traveller Universe Pern could well have been settled by Terrans sick of the
wars that created the Second Imperium!  After all there have been an awful lot
of expeditions from Terra out towards the Rim so it's wouldn't be all that hard
for one of them to have been the one that created Pern. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:13:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Stephan Aspridis wrote:

> IMHO the canonical meson effects are more closely modeled by the point in space 
> theory. Remember the first contact with the TL17 robots of Sabmiqys (my spelling is 
> probably wrong). The planetary meson guns let the scout ships explode inside out 
> without any sign of firing.

I'm not familiar with this reference.  Where is it from?

> However, _real_ world meson guns (if they could be built) would would have their 
> meson decay happen along a line segment, making any kind of deep meson gun 
> completely unfeasable. This is because if you adjust the half time of the mesons by 
> accelerating them to relativistic speeds, all you have done is to alter the probability 
> curve for the decay, since half time means the time where half of the particles in 
> question have decayed. There is no way of exactly knowing the _life_ time of an 
> individual particle.

I guess that sends us back to the magical point decay, although Rupert's
short bell curve would do just as well to circumvent the possibility of
the thing going off inside an empty fuel tank (which was the original
source of this thread).  It would make for a nice light show if mesons
decayed along the length of the beam, though (a la cover of Brilliant
Lances).  If you could get the enemy to line up real nice, you could even
nail several of them with one shot.  8-) 


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:52:16 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#166] Character Names

At 11:50 PM 2/14/98 GMT, you wrote:

>Normally, a Vilani name is given in two or occasionally three
>parts: Eneri Lentuli, Ashi Kaagira Samiibukun, et cetera.  In
>reality, there are five components to a Vilani name:

<excellent post snipped>

Im my dilantin-induced fog, I read this and started singing "The Naming Of
Cats" from "Cats."

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:07:01 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Army, Marines, etc. (was  Null development in key areas)

At 03:41 PM 2/13/98 EST, you wrote:

>>The role of the USMC is to put a foot in the door.  By getting to a trouble
>>spot quickly, the Marines provide a notable US presence on the ground.
>>Also, the Marines have their own air support (AV-8B jump jets and AH-1S Sea
>>Cobras) that interact closely with the troops on the ground.

>Hell... Marines take the damn door... Don't forget F/A-18s and assorted
>other craft. : )

I was thinking more along the lines of direct close support craft, like the
Army's AH-64.  As big a fan of the F/A-18 as I am, it's not a very good CAS
ship.

>>What the Marines lack is the capability for sustained warfare.  The Army,
>>with massed divisions of M1A2s and field artillery, can locate, fix, and
>>destroy the enemy; then "plant the flag in his ass."

>   There Army still uses more A1s than A2s and for a reason. The A2s
aren't >a whole lot of an improvement.  IMO, the only aspects of the A2
that are >wanted are the CITV (Commanders Independant Thermal Viewer) and
the GPS.  >The rest is a bunch of electronic junk.  Has a bad habit for
failing and >leaving them SOL.

The Army is ever-so-slowly making the A2 the standard.  As I recall, the
Marine armor units in the Gulf still had M-60s!  If you add in the heavier
artillery component and our organic support, the Army is the force that
occupies the enemy's teretory and palnts the flag.  Marines are great at
that intial assult, but really lack the logistic depth to carry on through
a campaign.

>We can fight an A1 say w/o power.  It's not easy, but it's all a matter of
>being a good tanker.   The A2 u don't have that option (needless to say w/
>the CITV u can't fire the Tank Commanders .50 cal buttoned up.  Tisk
tisk... >i'd rather not have it...)

Speaking as a good 11-Bullet Catcher (Warsaw Pact Ammunition Collection
Specialist) I'd rather not be in something that attracts that much attention.

>>>The mission of the Army seems obscure to me now.  Maybe we should have
>>>the Navy, Marines, and Air Force absorb the role of the Army in this day
>>>and age.
>
>>Heretic!   The main mission of the United States Army is to defend the US.
>
>So we can get rid of the Army and go all Guard units? : )  

Theoretically, we could.  The theory was that the various state militias
would join together to form the US Army.  During WWII, the majority of
combat troops were National Guardsmen called to Federal Service.  The
reality is that given the very technical nature of modern warfare, a
standing Army is a necessity.

For those of you who never served, being a modern infantryman (Army or
USMC) is much more than toting a rifle.  Over half the skill you learn in
Basic are technical in nature, and as you progress, your technical
knowledge expands.

>>The Army isn't in the force-projection business.  That's the Navy/USMC's
>>job.  The Army is best utilized when deployed to a forward area, given time
>>to collect itself, and supported by the Air Force.
>
>all too true.

Of course, since our manhood is at stake, we have to have the 82nd
Airborne, which utilizes a combat technique that was obsolete in 1945.
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:11:14 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Care Package

I sent my $3.00 in postage to Marc Miller several days ago and today, in my
mailbox, was a priority mail envelop bulging with neat (old) stuff...
Unfortunately for me the Imperium map was all-out before I got to Marc, but
for just the price of postage, I still got a LOT - a Spinward Marches map,
an Aliens Suppliment (I'd never before seen), the History of the Imperium
(hadn't seen that one either), COACC, a copy of MayDay, and a price list of
odds & ends Marc's got at FFE.  

I offer my sincere thanks to Marc for his generosity - and, of course, for
the materials I received!




Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:10:34 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

At 06:46 PM 2/14/98 -0600, you wrote:

>I can just see the Imperial Fleet cruising into battle with the intercom
>blasting _Flight of The Valkyries_ (or maybe _Flight of the Bumble Bees_),
>or a space opera with The Beetles playing the theme music.

Actually, the album "Yellow Submarine" features music from the film, which
works quite well as Traveller backround music.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Nothing concentrates the military mind  |
|  so much as the discovery that you have  |
|  walked into an ambush."                 |
|                      -Thomas Packenham   |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:18:38 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 10:39 AM 2/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>>On the other hand, the aftermath of wars makes a great enviroment.  I'm
>>sketching out ideas for the Arbellatra Regency.  Since I love Conspiracy
>>theories, I'm playing with the idea that a true heir is found (the
>>great-great-granddaughter of Martin V), and factions either try to put the
>>girl on the throne, where she can be easily manipulated, hustle her off the
>>scenen so that Arbellatra can eventual take the crown, or kill her outright.
>>
>>Add in trials of war criminals, and everone scrambling for power in the
>>post-bellum vaccuum....
>
>Sort of a post-Hard Times scenario...?

More of a "bright shining future New Imperial Order" type thing.  Everybody
is trying to forget that the Civil War ever happened, but the nasty little
secrets are still buried, and the situation is far from stable.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:25:22 -0500
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: Mail

I seem to have been 'dropped' from the list.
If anyone had written to me through the List in the last two weeks, Please resend the post directly to me at jtoth@erols.com.

Thanks,
John 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:52:54 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Keith Laumer and Bolos

J-Man wrote:





Umm, did we forget something J-Man?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:06:40 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: IMNSHO, IIRC, IMTU, ETC

Has anyone posted a comprehensive list of standard TML abbreviations?

If anyone has one I would like to get it.

cybernot@GTE.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:34:18 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Dan Lane wrote:


>In any case, I'm open to calculations.

At the risk of reopening the C speed rocks debate, I'll offer some figures.

Take a small NiFe asteroid, say 100 m in diameter.  It would have a volume
of c.  523,600 cubic meters and a mass of c.  4,188,800 tons.  Let's call
that 4 MT for convenience.  Let's say you accelerate it at 1 m/s/s for just
1 hour (3,600 seconds).  It now has a velocity of 3.6 km/s (that's over
8,000 MPH).  At that speed, it will have a kinetic energy of 5.184e+10 kN.

Check my work.  Here are the formulas I used:

V = pi/6*d^3
m = V*8
v = a*t
Ek=m*v*v

I bet Deadeye could tell us the energy equivalent for a ton of TNT if you
don't know (I don't).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:12:37 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: My last comment on warfare

Yeah, Germany just wanted to be one of the big boys anyway.  Too bad
people dont see a trend when it hits.  

Even though we disagree as to usage of nukes, as if ordered I would drop
one without question(maybe a little one if the circumstances were way
screwed up,)  I really hope I never have to. 

I guess that makes me "evil," but frankly I dont give a shit about
humanity if it comes to a situation those things are going to be used. 
They will be reaping the whirlwind.  If you have a problem with that(not
just Volker) make sure the politicians know that I WILL fry my target if
ordered to.  

I am a tool.  Please don't make me go off:)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:15:59 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

> I bet Deadeye could tell us the energy equivalent for a ton of TNT if you
> don't know (I don't).

About 20 million monkeys.  Or 120 million flatcats.  Anyone want a
flanola?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:14:29 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)

Rob Prior wrote:

>Also, they have been shabbily treated by the British, so that many widows
>and invalids are in financial need. There is a fund you can contribute to
>- and who knows, having the Ghurkas as friends could be handy one day!

By any chance do you have contact information?

Sincerely,

Richard
cybernot@GTE.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 06:03 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Moin Deadeye,

> aforementioned.  I tend to beleive the former, simply because there is
> nowhere for the strikers to hide.

	Of course, as long as I consider complex rules like Brilliant Lances,
	and self defined ships ( yes I'm still a gearhead ). Its difficult
	with FFS to build boats (100dt-), which are beyond imposible to lock,
	or average if the boat is a fighter (10dt-). "beyond imposible" in
	BL means that a task can not be attempted. Fine give'em some short
	range KKMs, some large passive ems folding array drones, some radio
	beacon drones. Deply them in small groups, and you'll have a sniper
	(or as the germans say Wolfspack) squadron attached to a fleet, or
	operating as scouts.

	Back to the topic:

	This is of course horrorfull TNE handwaving, but it was Davids
	intension to offer some new ways, like the jump-torpedo or the
	xray laser, unusual in imperial design with its "null development"
	according to its vilani/sylean tradition.

	TNE showed some development like increased fuel efficiency with TL,
	or technologies unusual in imperial campains invented by virus or
	by pocket empires from scratch (the jump torpedos, cybercloning,
	xray lasers, non nuclear missiles, ...) Of course anytime you've to
	ask for a story to explain. The jump torpedo is easy to explain.
	Viliani tradition was TL:10-J1 for traders and one level higher
	for military ships. The vilani have a standard proved to work
	over ?000 years, size of a socket or a bay or a container, anything
	has its standard. Without interstellar economie would'nt work,
	and it wont be posible to repair a ship far from its homeport.
	The jump torpedo was of course a perfid virus idea, replace the
	crewstation with a 3rd computer and a jumpdrive. The xray laser
	only makes sense, if you uses non standard sockets. And its not
	as good for orbital bombardment. The KKM only works short range
	with suprise, and this suprise is only posible with the jump
	torpedo concept. And of course KKMs had been forbidden in the 3I.
	While the good nuke is ideal for devasting a planet, the small
	53cm KKM is a evil weapon able to kill a warship regardless of
	armor. No chance that system defense is allowed to use it.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:31:36 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Deadeye wrote:

>Notice there is still an Air Force,and for a reason.  I got shot at by
>guns and sams in the gulf and had a lot of friends that did too.  They
>are not the endall of air war and we have measures, called "wild
>weasels" or SEAD that effectively shuts them down.
>
>Thousand dollar?  One of those things, depending on models, is upwards
>of 1 million dollars itself.

Did he say SAND?  I didn't think that laser technology had developed that
far!  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:41:55 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: 3D combat

In all the discussion of 2D vs. 3D maps, I keep wondering why you keep
talking about what's missing.  Now I understand.  Don't forget what I tell
my players about the flat sector maps.

In combat (as opposed to sector maps) 2D and 3D are the same if there are 3
or less units.  If there are more that 3 we use conventional mapping
techniques plus an altitude notation.

This give you a realistic sim provided all participants are accustomed to 3D
situations.  If you have people in space who are basically ground lubbers,
you can send a ship behind another object and make it "disappear" by getting
out of the plane of combat.  Until they "catch on", you can cause them all
kinds of headaches.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:41:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Belters

In mail you write:

> Shadow wrote:
>
>>It takes a fairly large body to have a core (be it rock in an icy/CHON
>>body, or metal in a stony body. So the core is going to be a bit too
>>large to haul off in one chunk. It'll likely be hundreds of meters
>>across.
>
> Do you know exactly how large?  If not, would you be willing to hazard a
> guess?

Well, the body has to be large enough to have "significant" internal
gravity. That is, the material has to be able to "settle". And for that
mattter, it has to be large enough for internal heat to melt things. 

Both of those point towards bodies tens of kilometers across. The
smaller asteroids will either be undifferentiated ice & dust (if you
are way out from the star) or fragements from collisions between the
larger bodies.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:55:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan)

In mail you write:

> Also causes problems when the original action is reprehensible. By a
> straight tit-for-tat, if I gas your cities then you can gas mine. If I
> napalm your villages then you can napalm mine. It may make great games
> theory, but I have moral problems with the retaliation aspect.  (Also
> makes riot control interesting: if I just throw rocks at you, can you
> shoot me?)

Yes I can. Contrary to the opinion of far too many people, a thrown
rock is a deadly weapon. There's a *reason* why riot police wear those
helmets and carry those shields. Without them, rocks are *deadly*. With
them, the rocks are merely dangerous.

There's a case on record of a grizzly bear charging a railroad "track
walker". The track walker was an amateur softball pitcher. He *killed*
the grizzly by throwing rocks at it. Anything that can kill an adult
grizzly is equivalent to a bullet as far as "force" is concerned.

There's also a reason that "stoning" used to be a form of execution.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:50:28 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Care Package

Bill Rutherford wrote:
> 
> I sent my $3.00 in postage to Marc Miller several days ago and today, in my
> mailbox, was a priority mail envelop bulging with neat (old) stuff...
> Unfortunately for me the Imperium map was all-out before I got to Marc, but
> for just the price of postage, I still got a LOT - a Spinward Marches map,
> an Aliens Suppliment (I'd never before seen), the History of the Imperium
> (hadn't seen that one either), COACC, a copy of MayDay, and a price list of
> odds & ends Marc's got at FFE.
> 
> I offer my sincere thanks to Marc for his generosity - and, of course, for
> the materials I received!
> 
> Bill Rutherford
> worj@topgun.cinecom.com

Wow!  that's way cool!  I was going to send for that too, but couldn't
get the time out of my work schedual so hopefully Marc will do this
again soon so I can participate.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #172
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 173



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: 3D combat
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: IFF it worked that way...
Re: Relieved of Duty!
Re: My last comment on warfare
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Relieved of Duty!
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Religion in America
Luriani (part one)
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:20:43 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Mi
>         While the good nuke is ideal for devasting a planet, the small
>         53cm KKM is a evil weapon able to kill a warship regardless of
>         armor. No chance that system defense is allowed to use it.
> 
> --

Kinteic kill munition?  Was is KKM?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:21:45 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> Did he say SAND?  I didn't think that laser technology had developed that
> far!  :-)


Hee hee!  Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:25:26 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 3D combat

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> In all the discussion of 2D vs. 3D maps, I keep wondering why you keep
> talking about what's missing.  Now I understand.  Don't forget what I tell
> my players about the flat sector maps.
> 
> In combat (as opposed to sector maps) 2D and 3D are the same if there are 3
> or less units.  If there are more that 3 we use conventional mapping
> techniques plus an altitude notation.
> 
> This give you a realistic sim provided all participants are accustomed to 3D
> situations.  If you have people in space who are basically ground lubbers,
> you can send a ship behind another object and make it "disappear" by getting
> out of the plane of combat.  Until they "catch on", you can cause them all
> kinds of headaches.


Cute.  I like the strategy.  So far I use nearly pure roleplaying, so
I'm not a genius when it comes to fighting game ships.  Mostly I
simulate intense combat situation then make the players react.

Since I'm interested in this more from an art /strategic standpoint, the
tac plotting is not useful--yet.

I would love to have a computer program that simulates a combat holotank
over a determined time period, complete with IFF tags.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:26:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:35:41 -0600, "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>

>Actually it isn't (quite) 200 proof.  To attain that degree of purity
>requires (at current TL) the use of some very toxic (and IIRC, expensive)
>chemicals that not only leave the alcohol without a trace of water, but also
>with a taste that is enough to warn you away from drinking it.  It is also
>made even more poisonous due to the slight traces of the chemicals.
>
>Last I checked it's impossible to get alcohol absolutely pure.

Actually, you can remove the last of the water by adding a
zeolite (known as "molecular seives") to suck up the last.
You just then filter it away.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 01:23:05 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

On 02/14/98 at 09:55 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Yes I can. Contrary to the opinion of far too many people, a thrown rock
>is a deadly weapon. There's a *reason* why riot police wear those helmets
>and carry those shields. Without them, rocks are *deadly*. With them, the
>rocks are merely dangerous.

>There's a case on record of a grizzly bear charging a railroad "track
>walker". The track walker was an amateur softball pitcher. He *killed* the
>grizzly by throwing rocks at it. Anything that can kill an adult grizzly
>is equivalent to a bullet as far as "force" is concerned.

Hum, let's see...a quarter pound rock, about two inches in diameter thrown
at eighty miles per hour...that would be about 110 grams at about 36 meters
per second.  Using G^3, and rounding everything off, we get...

  J = 108 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 70

  DV = (70 x .735 / 5 )^.5 = 3

...at best we're talking about 1d3, at best.  That track walker must have
had some beaucoup good rolls on his throws. ;->

That *really* seems too low, though, doesn't it! You'd *think* a rock
thrown hard would do more damage than that. Did I do the math wrong? 

Aside: I remember the story of how Bob Feller, the famous baseball pitcher,
was discovered by a scout. The scout was on his way to a see a game out in
the county and got lost.  When he saw a young man far out in a grain field
he stopped to ask directions, calling the boy over.  When the young man got
near the scout noticed that he was carrying a sack in each hand.  The scout
asked the man what was in the sacks.

"Well, sir, this one has dead rabbits for my supper." said the lad holding
up one sack.

"And this one has my rocks." he said holding up the other.

Bob Feller had been "stoning" rabbits in the field, one rock, one throw,
one dead rabbit...or so the story goes. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:25:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In mail you write:

> In-Reply-To: <34E502A5.4505@edgenet.net>
>
> Daniel,
>
>> Actually, it doesn't.  Those rocks are in orbit and in order to
>> alter their vectors you need to expend a lot of juice.  A friend
>> of mine did some research at Naval Postgrad school concerning
>> present day asteroid defense.  The verdict is available on the
>> web as the first listing under the "Asteroid Defense" subject (so he
>> says).  And what was that verdict you ask?  The verdict was:
>>  
>> We die.  All of us.
>>  
>> (If the rock is bigger than 100m across).  
>>  
>> All of the nukes humanity has ever made would stop a 1 km rock from
>> doing the nasty on the whole planet.
>
> If you catch it early enough, you may be able to nudge it just enough 
> to make it miss. Breaking it into smaller bits *may* help. Yes, it 
> means you get impacts over a larger area (which may do more damage), 
> but if you're lucky many will be small enough to burn up in the 
> atmosphere.

With any rock of a "decent" size, "burning up" makes things *worse*,
because the *real* damage from a large strike is in the extra heat
energy pumped into the planetary weather system. It'll make El Nino
look tame.

With a "concentrated" strike, a lot of energy goes into earthquakes
(Iwhich still winds up as heat, but it takes longer), and if it's a
land strike much of the energy will be radiated back into space from
the crater. Note that with anything of 1 km or larger size, you'll have
exposed magma at the bottom of the crater, adding more heat.

A "break into pieces and burn up" strike lodges all the energy in the
atmosphere. 

A sea strike not only lodges the energy of the strike in the atmsphore,
but it also vaporizes cubic kilometers of seawater, and creates a lot
of dust (from seabed sediment picking up by the seawater rushing in to
fill the crater). And all the heat from the exposed magma goes into the
atmosphere as well. 

So "burning up" is somewhat better than a sea strike, but a lot worse
than a land strike.

In any case, the planetary weather system will be really messed up. As
in major storms, droughts, floods, all that fun stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:09:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: IFF it worked that way...

In mail you write:

>> One of the scientists involved with the Manhattan District wrote an SF
>> story back in the 50s, set in a future where the Soviets got the upper
>> hand and the US had to surrender. The title was "My trial as a War
>> Criminal". He had the US commanders being tried for that sort of thing
>> as well as bombing of civilian targets (like Dresden).
>
> The firebombing of Dresden (which I think only involved RAF aircraft) 
> was done *at the request of* the Soviets (the fleeing civilians would 
> cause chaos behind German lines, making the Soviet advance easier).

So? Admiral Doenitz tried defending himself against charges based on
his use of unrestricted submarine warfare by pointing out that the US
had done the same thing in the Pacific.

If he couldn't get away with that, do you think the Soviets would have
let a detail like yours get in the way?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:05:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

In mail you write:

>> >The Captain can be relieved under the following conditions:
>>  
>> >1.  He is medically incapable (either physically or mentally) of  command,
>> >as certified by the Chief Medical Officerand agreed by at  least 2/3 of
>> >the Command Staff.
>>  
>> >2. He issues illegal orders. This must be agreed by the Executive  Officer
>> >and at least 2/3 of the Command Staff.
>>  
>> >Note that an unsuccessful challenge to the Captain's authority is  mutiny,
>> >the normal punishment for which is death.
>>  
>> I'd alter the conditions where a Captain may be relived of command to be:
>>  
>> 1.  He is medically incapable (either physically or mentally) of command,
>> as certified by the Chief Medical Officer.  The First (or ranking) Officer,
>> takes command.  The decision is evaluated by a medical review board at the
>> earliest opportunity and if overturned the Captain is reinstated and CMO is
>> indicted for mutiny.
>
> What do you do if it's the CMO that's gone loopy/rogue/etc (but not
> enough to be noticed). He can declare the captain unfit, and nobody
> can argue (especially if it's a conspiracy with the XO). I wanted a
> safety net, hence the 2/3 majority.

For various *good* reasons, the only time that you take a *vote* in the
military is during a courts martial. Commanders have been relieved of
command when headquarters found out that they had let their menm vote
on something rather than deciding for them. 

Among other things, voting takes *time*. 

>> 2. There is no 2.
>>  
>> Personnel are not authorized to obey illegal orders.  Any Officer or
>> crewman who performs illegal acts will be relieved of command (or duty) by
>> the ranking Officer present and held to be tried for their crimes.
>
> But if it's the CO who's committing them...?

Then you get the orders in writing and put your objections in writing.
That will cover you when the military court starts looking for blood.

>> Personnel may refuse to perform orders they judge to be illegal, however
>> their refusal may lead to immediate arrest, detention and subsequent court
>> martial on grounds of treason, mutiny, or insorbordination.
>
> So what *legally* can the command crew (say) do if the CO starts giving 
> illegal orders?

Get the orders in writing and log their objections.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:54:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: My last comment on warfare

In mail you write:

> MJ Dougherty schrieb:
>>
>> Use of force is never a solution?
>>
>> I disagree. Supposing I killed you. That would solve the problem of our
>> disagreeing about warfare, no? Permanently.
> That-yes, but you would have to live with the consequences, go to jail,
> face my friends/family, etc. who'll want revenge. Also, others will take
> up my cause, making me a matryr. So now you'll face more people with my
> attitude, your problem not solved.
> Seriously, believing violence with stop violence just doesn't cut it.
> There will always be resentment in the long run, causing even greter
> problems.

I suggest you discuss the above with the Carthaginians.

I have no idea which side was "right" in the Punic Wars. But one side
*no longer exists*. 

So in *that* sense, if no other, violence *can* "solve" a problem.

You also assume that "your" family, friends, etc *will* want revenge
and that others *will* take up your cause. Possibly. But history is
full of examples of people deciding "they got what they deserved". 

*Counting* on your being considered a martyr is foolish.

> My countries history is a good example. When WW1 was lost, the terms
> Germany had to fulfill were devastation, practacally ruining the
> country, this opened the path for Hitler to take power. I truly believe
> hat had the victors of WW1 been more civil in their demands, Hitler
> would have stood no chance at all.

I agree on that. But that has little to do with the *conduct* of the
war. It has a lot to do with a desire for revenge.

> After WW2 the Allies helped us get back on our feet. This time around we
> bacame you most faithful allies. Somehow shows that revenge and
> retaliation are not always wise.

*After* the war. During the war, and even *before* it, "retaliation"
and the *threat* of force are quite useful.

Compare the methods and results in two historical incidents:

1. Hitler "annexing" the Sudentenland.
2. Saddam Hussein "annexing" Kuwait.

In the former, rather than use force, the annexation was accepted. In
the latter, the annexation was *forcibly* reversed. Alas, the follow
thru was insufficient, as Saddam *still* doesn't "get" the idea that he
is *not* allowed to prepare to attack his neighbors. Nor does he seem
to recall that he got a ceasefire (*not* "peace") by agreeing to the
terms he now refuses to honor. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:54:29 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Richard A. Flores wrote:
> 
> Dan Lane wrote:
> 
> >In any case, I'm open to calculations.
> 
> At the risk of reopening the C speed rocks debate, I'll offer some figures.
> 
> Take a small NiFe asteroid, say 100 m in diameter.  It would have a volume
> of c.  523,600 cubic meters and a mass of c.  4,188,800 tons.  Let's call
> that 4 MT for convenience.  Let's say you accelerate it at 1 m/s/s for just
> 1 hour (3,600 seconds).  It now has a velocity of 3.6 km/s (that's over
> 8,000 MPH).  At that speed, it will have a kinetic energy of 5.184e+10 kN.
> 
> Check my work.  Here are the formulas I used:
> 
> V = pi/6*d^3
> m = V*8
> v = a*t
> Ek=m*v*v
> 
> I bet Deadeye could tell us the energy equivalent for a ton of TNT if you
> don't know (I don't).


1MT = 4.14 * 10^15 MJ I've also seen 4.2)

The problem here is that you can't just accelerate the rock, you have to
change its orbital velocity.  I haven't done these calc.  The navy's
PostGrad school did, so I can't really speak with any more authority on
the matter.    BTW, deadeye is my twin brother.

I guess the real problem is that we cannot accerate much of anything
today, and it really wasn't a cananonical tactic for the employment of
starships in either CT or MT.

Later dude!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:01:13 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

We have a name for voting in the Navy.  We call it MUTINY.

"Our duty is to defend democracy, not to practice it." - Crimson Tide


- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:18:40 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

At 09:34 PM 14/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Dan Lane wrote:
>
>
>>In any case, I'm open to calculations.
>
>At the risk of reopening the C speed rocks debate, I'll offer some figures.
>
>Take a small NiFe asteroid, say 100 m in diameter.  It would have a volume
>of c.  523,600 cubic meters and a mass of c.  4,188,800 tons.  Let's call
>that 4 MT for convenience.  Let's say you accelerate it at 1 m/s/s for just
>1 hour (3,600 seconds).  It now has a velocity of 3.6 km/s (that's over
>8,000 MPH).  At that speed, it will have a kinetic energy of 5.184e+10 kN.
>
>Check my work.  Here are the formulas I used:
>
>V = pi/6*d^3
>m = V*8
>v = a*t
>Ek=m*v*v

Ek=0.5*m*v*v  You forgot to divide by two, this also gives energy in
Joules, not kN.

>I bet Deadeye could tell us the energy equivalent for a ton of TNT if you
>don't know (I don't).
>
IIRC 1 Kg of TNT gives 4.186*10^6 J

I get a Ek of 2.592*10^16, which when divided by 4.186*10^9 (energy per ton
on TNT) gives 6192068 tons of TNT, or about 6 Megatons.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:29:24 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

At 01:23 AM 15/02/98 -0600, Eris wrote:
>On 02/14/98 at 09:55 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>Yes I can. Contrary to the opinion of far too many people, a thrown rock
>>is a deadly weapon. There's a *reason* why riot police wear those helmets
>>and carry those shields. Without them, rocks are *deadly*. With them, the
>>rocks are merely dangerous.
>
>>There's a case on record of a grizzly bear charging a railroad "track
>>walker". The track walker was an amateur softball pitcher. He *killed* the
>>grizzly by throwing rocks at it. Anything that can kill an adult grizzly
>>is equivalent to a bullet as far as "force" is concerned.
>
>Hum, let's see...a quarter pound rock, about two inches in diameter thrown
>at eighty miles per hour...that would be about 110 grams at about 36 meters
>per second.  Using G^3, and rounding everything off, we get...
>
>  J = 108 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 70
>
>  DV = (70 x .735 / 5 )^.5 = 3
>
>...at best we're talking about 1d3, at best.  That track walker must have
>had some beaucoup good rolls on his throws. ;->
>
>That *really* seems too low, though, doesn't it! You'd *think* a rock
>thrown hard would do more damage than that. Did I do the math wrong? 
>
The maths worked out the same for me :) If you put the numbers into TNE you
get a Dam of 1D6-1, the same as a .22 Long Rifle. Now the .22LR has been
used to kill an elephant with one shot, but I don't think you could do that
with one rock of that size. 

I suspect that rocks are dangerous for their energy because of their
relatively high momentum. This same high momentum/low energy compared to a
.22LR is why I don't think a rock would work on an elephant (poor
penetration).

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 04:54:01 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

>Not growing, the numbers remain the same. The CC and allies of them just
>got more aggressive and vocal the last years, thereby gaining in
>influence. No new Christians are beeing converted in the US, AFAIK!

I dunno.  I remember reading a good number of articles in mainstream American
magazines (TIME being one I remember pretty clearly) within the last two years
that lead me to believe that Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds in
the U.S.  The Catholic Church is losing ground in a big way, but the more
liberal churches of other sects are gaining quite a number of followers.  And
the fundamentalists grow alarmingly each year (and have been for quite a few
years).

This is my last statement on this, because I don't have the magazines in
question.

>WE have no explanation for JD, who says people in the 3I dont know how
>it works? I believe they do and just because we dont have an
>explanation (If we had, wed be flying to the stars within a year!)
>doent mean people i the 3I have no concept of Jump. Unless you find
>something contradiction in canon, thats how i see it!

Obviously they have a concept of Jump...  They use it from day to day.  The
impression I've always got is that nobody really understands what J-Space
itself is, why it causes insanity, why some people have jump intolerance...
Etc...  They know how to punch in and punch out of J-Space, but have very
little understanding of J-Space itself.

>No contest, religion is out there, but on a smaller scale than you
>think:
>No State Religion of the 3I, no officially endorsed religion, no
>religion controlling most of the imperium, no single religion greater
>than say 1% of the entire imperial population.

I wouldn't imagine a state religion of the 3I, nor did I say that there was.
I also don't believe that there is an officially endorsed religion in the 3I
(kind of redundant).

But, religion is probably on a much larger scale then you seem to think.  The
most populous planet in the subsector that I rolled up randomly has something
like 50+ billion people.  The highest population in the entire subsector, and
the highest percentage of the population in the subsector (I think all of the
other planets added up equal less then a quarter of that population).  And, it
turned out to be a religious dictatorship.  That's a common thing.  The higher
the population, the better the chances of a religious dictatorship, at least
according to the current rules.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 05:30:39 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Religion in America

This is a short off topic letter as my last statement on the subject.  Info is
taken from the December 1996 issue of George, so its just a little over a year
old.

These are percentages of  Americans that believe various things:

86% believe in a God or a Supreme Being (7% do not, 6% don't know/refuse)
75% believe in life after death (17% do not, 8% don't know/refuse)
86% believe in heaven (9% do not, 4% don't know/refuse)
77% believe in hell (18% do not, 5% don't know/refuse)
51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms (38% believe in
evolution, 12% don't know/refuse)
60% believe that the world was created in 7 days (27% do not, 13% don't know,
refuse)
78% believe in angels (15% don't, 7% don't know/refuse)

There are a number of other interesting numbers, but I just had kind of wanted
to place the numbers of religious types and non religious types (as a side
note, of those who believe in a God or Supreme Being, 49% attend services at
least once a week, so many are active in organized religions).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:13:48 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Luriani (part one)

Homeworld: Derri/Fornast 2316 B76AAA8-C   Hi Wa 720 Im K0 V (in 1120)

**History**
The Luriani are a Human minor race transported to their new home by the
mysterious Ancients some 300,000 years ago. Whilst the Luriani are
unmistakably Human they have several unique and distinct characteristics
which are a result of both natural evolution and genetic tampering by the
Ancinets. The Luriani are often referred to as "aquatic" Humans. This is
not strictly true, for although they are far more at home in a water
environment than most Humans these adaptations do not go as far as the
Solomani geenered Scanians. Luriani have distinctively webbed hands and
feet (and the Luriani toes take up a far greater proportion of the feet);
certain fat cells have the ability to store oxygen which allows the Luriani
to remain submerged for up to 15 minutes and reach depths of up to 500
metres without any artificial assistance; they possess a clear second eyelid
under the first which greatly enchances their vision underwater. However
perhaps their most striking modification is not readily apparent at all.
Unlike virtually all other Human races, the Luriani are overwhelmingly right
brain dominant and their language abiity is located in the centre of the
brain which normally deals with singing rather than the classic speach
centres. It would appear that these modifications were introduced to enable
the Luriani to function better in a three dimensional environment, this has
lead to further speculation that the Ancients intended to make the Luriani
fully aquatic but the Final War intervined, leaving the Luriani "unfinished".
As a result of these modifications the Luriani are overwhelmingly (at least
93%) lefthanded, intensily creative and artistic, and have a strong tendancy
towards music.

Derri (the Luriani homeworld) is officially classified as a waterworld, with
only 5% of its surface being land. However this is still 19.7 million km2.
Derri is a fairly normal world with eleven continental plates, but these are
mostly below sea level. Thus Derri is covered by a large number of continental
sized island archipelagos surrounded by shallow (250m to 400m) seas. These
"continents" are surrounded by deep (2000m to 5000m) oceans. It would appear
that the Ancients initially deposited the Luriani on several islands in one
of these archipelagos.

The semi-aquatic nature of the Luriani enabled them to utilise the shallow
seas around their island homes for hunting and gathering, thus allowing for
far greater populations and development than might have otherwise been
expected. However eventually the restricted nature of their island homes
started to limit their development. It was these growing pressures that lead
to the development of seafaring on Derri far before the Luriani had even
developed anything even remotely like civilisation (it is theorised that the
creative nature of the Luriani brain played a crutial role in this). Thus
in approximately -250,000 the Luriani developed seagoing vessels whilst they
were still a primitive hunter gatherer society. By -150,000 the Luriani
had developed oceangoing vessels capable of circumnavigating their entire
world despite still possessing only a TL0 culture. It was the possestion of
this maritime capacity which preserved the remarkable homogenity of Luriani
culture, despite being seperated by thousands of kilometres of water, each
Luriani settlement was connected by a web of voyaging ships. Indeed some
Luriani lived out thier entire lives at sea, only setting foot on land to
gather supplies or build new ships.

Given this voyaging culture it was only natural that the Luriani should
quickly come to the concept of trade and commerce, thus giving rise to the
first signs of Luriani civilisation. By -100,000 the Luriani had developed
a thriving world spanning barter economy, with the huge nomadic voyaging
ships travelling between islands, trading for goods and services. However
with the rise of trade came the rise of piracy and warfare. Both the
seagoing nomads and the island dwelling settlements found a need for
fighters to defend against the depredations of raiders, which would
eventually evolve into the Luriani warrior class. Thus by -30,000 the
Luriani had established a world spanning trading civilisation complete with
orgainised warfare, despite the fact that they were still a TL0 hunter
gatherer culture without any domesticated animals or form of agriculture.

Over the next 23,000 years the Luriani gradually improved their technology
and culture. In around -28,000 the first signs of agriculture appeared on
a number of islands, animals were domesticated around -25,000, metalworking
was achieved around -15,000. When Vilani influenced traders contacted the
Luriani in -7500 they had advanced to a solid TL3. The Luriani were to
prove to be extremely adept in absorbing Vilani technology; and by -7200
they had achieved TL9 and were launching their first "voyaging" ships to the
stars. By -6000 they had established a vigourous interstellar culture
encompassing most worlds within 10 parsecs of Derri. However the Luriani
never developed the idea of an interstellar state (much like they have never
truely developed a worldspaning government) and their worlds remained a
loose grouping closely bound only by their voyaging culture. However this
situation was not to remain.

In -5400 the Vilani began the Consolidation Wars. Intially the Vilani
ignored the Luriani, regarding their independent worlds as a lesser threat
than the many organised interstellar states that they faced. This was to
prove to be a miscalculation on the Vilani's part. When in -4900 the Vilani
attempted to conquer the Luriani worlds they found themselves opposed by a
coalition of all the Luriani worlds. The initial Vilani offensive was turned
back with heavy losses. However the Vilani returned in greater strength and
thus began the Luriani Campaigns. The Luriani were to prove to be formidable
opponents for the Vilani. The nature of their brains made three dimensional
combat second nature to the Luriani and their warrior class were very efficent
fighters. however eventually the superior economic weight of the Vilani
began to tell and one by one the Luriani worlds fell to the advancing
Vilani fleets; and in -4500 Derri fell and the Luriani were defeated and 
despite several revolts were to remain under Vilani rule until the comming
of the Solomani in -2200

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 12:34:49 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Richard A. Flores wrote:

> I bet Deadeye could tell us the energy equivalent for a ton of TNT if you
> don't know (I don't).

1 ton of TNT equals 4.2E9 Joule.

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 12:34:38 
From: "Stephan Aspridis" <Stephan.Aspridis@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: meson decay (was System Defense Boats)

Clark Crawford wrote:

>> IMHO the canonical meson effects are more closely modeled by the point in space 
>> theory. Remember the first contact with the TL17 robots of Sabmiqys (my spelling is 
>> probably wrong). The planetary meson guns let the scout ships explode inside out 
>> without any sign of firing.
>
> I'm not familiar with this reference.  Where is it from?

Contact: Sabmiqys. This is an old Challenge article (just don't nail me on which one, 
maybe someone could help ot with this?)

> I guess that sends us back to the magical point decay, although Rupert's
> short bell curve would do just as well to circumvent the possibility of
> the thing going off inside an empty fuel tank (which was the original
> source of this thread).  It would make for a nice light show if mesons
> decayed along the length of the beam, though (a la cover of Brilliant
> Lances).  If you could get the enemy to line up real nice, you could even
> nail several of them with one shot.  8-) 

And if you were _really_ high on energy, you could duplicate the effect of B5's Shadow 
Warspiders: Turn the beam on, wave it like a fire hose and slice through anything in it's 
path.

Ciao,
Stephan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #173
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 174



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Relieved of Duty!
Re: 3D combat
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
WWIII in Germany (was Re:  Nill development in key areas)
Complete Sector Maps
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #168
Violent solutions
Re: Alcohol Proof?
Pavanne
Re: Care Package
Re: Complete Sector Maps
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Warfare (and traveller)
Total War...
Re: Imperium Games belly up?
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: War Crimes
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'
Re: Total War...
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: War Crimes
Re: Total War...
Re: Total War...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:20:27 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

Leonard Erickson schrieb:

> >> Personnel may refuse to perform orders they judge to be illegal, however
> >> their refusal may lead to immediate arrest, detention and subsequent court
> >> martial on grounds of treason, mutiny, or insorbordination.
> >
> > So what *legally* can the command crew (say) do if the CO starts giving
> > illegal orders?
> 
> Get the orders in writing and log their objections.
In Germany, we were told in basic just to say "No!". Some orders may not
be followed no matter what! Violations of the Geneva Convention, f.e.!
 (If you do, youre screwed, no matter if you got the order in writing)
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:21:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3D combat

In mail you write:

> In all the discussion of 2D vs. 3D maps, I keep wondering why you keep
> talking about what's missing.  Now I understand.  Don't forget what I tell
> my players about the flat sector maps.
>
> In combat (as opposed to sector maps) 2D and 3D are the same if there are 3
> or less units.  If there are more that 3 we use conventional mapping
> techniques plus an altitude notation.
>
> This give you a realistic sim provided all participants are accustomed to 3D
> situations.  If you have people in space who are basically ground lubbers,
> you can send a ship behind another object and make it "disappear" by getting
> out of the plane of combat.  Until they "catch on", you can cause them all
> kinds of headaches.

Actually, you can wind up needing 3D if there are only *three* ships.
While three points define a plane, the *vectors* may not be coplanar.
With two ships, you *can* define a plane that'll hold both ships, by
"defining" one of them as being "at rest". Then the manuevers work out
ok. 

But if the local star or planets are of any interest than you need 3d
when you have *two* ships, as they can have course relative to the
planet/star that are skew lines.

Quick example of "skew" lines. Set up a line running north to south. A
foot *above* a point on this line, have a line running east-west (or
even at any angle other than 0 or 180 to the nort-south line). These
lines are *not* co-planar, nor do they ever meet. Mathematicians call
this being "skew" or skewed.

If you pick a frame where one ship is at rest, you've reduced that line
segment (vector) to a *point*. And a line and a point not on thaty line
define a plane. 

Add in a third ship, and unless it's course is restricted to this plane
you've defined, you are back to needing three dimensions.

3-D combat definitely calls for the *square* XY and XZ grids, plus a
lot of D^2 = X^2 + Y^2 + Z^2 type calcs.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:16:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In mail you write:

> Take a small NiFe asteroid, say 100 m in diameter.  It would have a volume
> of c.  523,600 cubic meters and a mass of c.  4,188,800 tons.  Let's call
> that 4 MT for convenience.  Let's say you accelerate it at 1 m/s/s for just
> 1 hour (3,600 seconds).  It now has a velocity of 3.6 km/s (that's over
> 8,000 MPH).  At that speed, it will have a kinetic energy of 5.184e+10 kN.
>
> Check my work.  Here are the formulas I used:
>
> V = pi/6*d^3
> m = V*8
> v = a*t
> Ek=m*v*v

That last should be Ek = .5*m*v*v.

Assuming your mass figure is correct I get about 27 EJ (27e15 Joules).
I think you forgot to convert tonnes to kg, and km/sec to m/sec.
 
> I bet Deadeye could tell us the energy equivalent for a ton of TNT if you
> don't know (I don't).

4.2e9 Joules = 1 ton of TNT

So that asteroid is roughly equivalent to a 6 megaton bomb.
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:32:30 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: WWIII in Germany (was Re:  Nill development in key areas)

> That s what i figured all along. Had war broken out, the US would have
> defended us, and when they would have been done with that, we re no
> better off than had the russians taken us over! Using nukes to defend
> territory is the most insane practice I ever heard of!

Wasn't there an old black joke about a tactical nuclear weapon being on
ethat fell on Germany?

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

"if it's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess..."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:59:07 +0000
From: Marc Davison <marc.davison@virgin.net>
Subject: Complete Sector Maps

Anyone know where I can get complete listing for the following sectors in
the early 1200's :-
	Massilia
	Delphi
	Glimmerdrift Reaches
	Diaspora
	Old Expanses
	Hinter-Worlds
	Solomani Rim
	Alpha Crucis
	Spica

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:54:45 -0800
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #168

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> Subject: Ine Givar (part 2)
> 

Excellent second post, Andrew!  Would you mind reposting
Part 1? I seemed to have missed it in the preceding 
posts. Hope you get to feeling well!

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Deneb
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:19:10 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Violent solutions

> MJ Dougherty schrieb:
>>
>> Use of force is never a solution?
>>
>> I disagree. Supposing I killed you. That would solve the problem of our
>> disagreeing about warfare, no? Permanently.
> That-yes, but you would have to live with the consequences, go to jail,
> face my friends/family, etc. who'll want revenge. Also, others will take
> up my cause, making me a matryr. So now you'll face more people with my
> attitude, your problem not solved.
> Seriously, believing violence with stop violence just doesn't cut it.
> There will always be resentment in the long run, causing even greter
> problems.


Hmm. Yes. But my original problem - the hypothetical 'you' remains solved. 

The others are new problems which may or may not appear. I can alos solve
those problems by applying Massive Violence (tm)

Ask Napoleon about this - most of his campaigns were attempts to shove
present problems back into the future and no, violence did not work for him
in the long run. But the Allies removed him BY VIOLENCE, and the problem
stayed solved. 

I didn't say violence was the perfect or desirable solution, merely that it
sometimes does solve problems. 

But we're wandering around non-topic land here. Can we wrap up with me
saying that I more or less agree - violence often breeds more problems than
it solves. 

But sometimes it's the only solution available in this stupid world of
ours.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:11:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alcohol Proof?

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Richard A. Flores wrote:
 
> Actually it isn't (quite) 200 proof.  To attain that degree of purity
> requires (at current TL) the use of some very toxic (and IIRC, expensive)
> chemicals that not only leave the alcohol without a trace of water, but also
> with a taste that is enough to warn you away from drinking it.  It is also
> made even more poisonous due to the slight traces of the chemicals.
> 
> Last I checked it's impossible to get alcohol absolutely pure.
> 
> 
You may be thinking of denatured alcohol, which is that way for the sole
purpose that it's toxic to drink.

Making anhydrous ethanol is simple and cheap (the taxes are actually a
major portion of the cost...we used to get it in pint bottles with little
tax stamps like any other kind of liquor) Keeping it that way is only
a little harder. It's is also no more toxic that Everclear (or less toxic
for that matter) One lab in our department has an annual christmas party
called the Purple Jesus party with a wicked punch made from the stuff .
The name derives from an apocryphal tale of one post doc who after
consuming a generous quantity wandered on off home, and allegedly had a
rather hallucinatory encounter with a large purple plastic dashboard icon.

Actually, all it takes to keep it anhydrous is dumping some molecular
sieve into it, and keeping it scrupulously closed in an airtight
container, flushed with dry nitrogen when opened. 

Calcium chloride will work almost as well as molecular sieve. I don't know
what the composition of molecular sieve is..it's some very hygroscopic
material bound up in small beads that absorbs a goodly chunk of it's
weight in water. It is a drying agent similar to calcium chloride with the
advantages that it doesn't clump up and form solid masses when it gets
wet. Also it can be regenerated by putting it in an oven. 

Aldrich sells it, we used to use it all the time to keep reagents free
of water.

There's another material called Dri-Rite, sold by a number of companies
that does the same thing.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:09:51 -0000
From: Douglas Sinclair <eem2ds@ee.surrey.ac.uk>
Subject: Pavanne

Is there an official ruling on Pavanne (Spinward Marches, 2905)?
The MT Imperial Encyclopedia gives it a UWP of C669452-A.  The Traveller
Adventure gives it E210000-0, and describes it as a barren world.  The map
in the MT Player's Manual shows it to have an E class starport.

While I'm on the subject of the Aramis subsector, the Imperial Encyclopedia
notes that Patinir is an Ancient site.  Is there any information on this
anywhere?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:37:00 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Care Package

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Bill Rutherford wrote:

> I sent my $3.00 in postage to Marc Miller several days ago and today, in my
> mailbox, was a priority mail envelop bulging with neat (old) stuff...

snip of neat stuff...
 
> I offer my sincere thanks to Marc for his generosity - and, of course, for
> the materials I received!
> 

Mine came yesterday, too, and I heartily second Bill's comments. Thanks
Marc!

Mine didn't have COACC..but I _did_ get Equipment:Book 3 of Striker. COOL!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:56:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Complete Sector Maps

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Marc Davison wrote:

> Anyone know where I can get complete listing for the following sectors in
> the early 1200's :-
> 	Massilia
> 	Delphi
> 	Glimmerdrift Reaches
> 	Diaspora
> 	Old Expanses
> 	Hinter-Worlds
> 	Solomani Rim
> 	Alpha Crucis
> 	Spica

AFAIK, there are none. There is sector information available, such as that
at ftp.mpgn.com, but it is data for the Rebellion, ca. 1116, not post
Virus.

You'll have to 'collapse' your own. I have a BASIC program on my web site
that does it according to the rules in TNE. it's at

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tprogs.html

I know it runs under qbasic from DOS 6.02. Translations to other
platforms/languages would be relatively simple.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:12:48 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

At 11:31 pm 2/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Deadeye wrote:
>
>>Notice there is still an Air Force,and for a reason.  I got shot at by
>>guns and sams in the gulf and had a lot of friends that did too.  They
>>are not the endall of air war and we have measures, called "wild
>>weasels" or SEAD that effectively shuts them down.
>>
>>Thousand dollar?  One of those things, depending on models, is upwards
>>of 1 million dollars itself.
>
>Did he say SAND?  I didn't think that laser technology had developed that
>far!  :-)

	"SEAD" = Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses; Spark-Varks (EF-111), Queers
(EA-6), Wild Weasels, etc. ... Y'don't have to worry as much about SAMs if
their afraid to turn on their radars (because some of them are already
smoking holes)...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:36:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Warfare (and traveller)

A lot of the commentary about what is, or should be considered
honorable conduct in battle has not been in practice for quite some
time. The concept of "total war" is really what various people are
attacking here on the list.

Total war has been the norm in full-blown conflicts certainly since
WW2 (I can't honestly remember which conflict it was coined for) and
probably WW1.

Anyway, how does this relate to traveller?  As Guy pointed out the
Rules of War are guidelines to determine when Imperial intervention
will occur in local conflicts. The Imperium basically reserves the
right to practice total war while not allowing it within the borders
during peacetime.

I've always assumed that rock-throwing wasn't practiced by mutual
agreement between (major) combatants. It maps well to cold war
conflicts this century.  The idea is to stay just shy of the cutoff
that will escalate the war as a whole to the point where all the
worlds on the front are totally destroyed.

There is also the goal of the conflict to consider. What good is it 
to lay waste to a planet that you want (with population) intact? 

Just thought that we could focus this energy on traveller.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:59:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Total War...

 
Hey, thinking about Iraq brought this to mind (combined with the
whole nuking Japan issue).

If bombing population centers is wrong by any agreed upon rules of
war (in traveller) then is it equally abhorent to put *any* military
facility or any military related industry in a civilian area? I
would say yes. You can't have it both ways.

If you want to keep you cities from getting bombed, you have a 
responsibility to not force the enemy to regard your cities as 
targets. I'd define "civilian area" as an area well outside the CEP 
of any weapon pointed at the military target. Anything else is a
target if for no reason other than probability.

You'd have to have all factories, etc. a few miles from town, more
or less.

Something to think about. The Japanese, for example, had a large
amount of military work being done in homes. Gun receivers, for
example. Parts were brought home, and returned to the factory
as sub-assemblies.  No doubt the best place to look for CBN
facilities in Iraq will be right in the city since they might feel
we'll pull punces to avoid collateral damage. That is asking for it,
IMO.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 18:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up?

In-Reply-To: <2d42329f.34e46a0c@aol.com>

> >  None of the above.  A call placed to Imperium Games yesterday (Feb.
>  > 11, 1998) resulted in the caller being told that Imperium Games would no
>  > longer being producing sourcebooks.
>  >
> What an incredibly irresponsible answer to a basic question of what Traveller
> materials are there out there. You've just said none of he current T4 material
> is any good, and that it basically doesn't exist anyway. Store have it.
> Distributors have it. There are some gems in the pile, even if you think it is
> all trash.

While I agree with your comment that a lot of T4 stuff is good, I'm a little 
concerned that you didn't deny the bit about there not being any more.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 18:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In-Reply-To: <34E4DEE3.41E2@edgenet.net>

Daniel,

> > ISTR French land-based nuclear missiles have (had?) a fairly short range -
> > just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!
> >
> Well, they're back "in", sort of.  They never really left the political
> arm, just the military arm.  And now, they're kind of "back."

I don't think they're fully integrated yet (if ever).
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 18:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: War Crimes

In-Reply-To: <34E4E783.9BAB6500@uni-trier.de>

Volker,

> You could have done what you did in Iraq: Rather than facing high human
> loss or nuking Baghdad, they called off the attack, since Saddam Hussein
> was no real threat anymore.

Erm, I don't think nuking Baghdad was ever seriously considered, except as 
a possible response to an NBC attack. The reason the attack stopped was 
because the job was over - liberating Kuwait was the *only* objective 
authorised by the UN.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 18:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In-Reply-To: <34E48348.135E@edgenet.net>

Daniel,

> I buy the argument about non-terrestrials, but I think they would
> be wayy too well defended for a destroyer to even get close.  Even
> the heavies would get waxed.  I doubt that anyone out there can
> proved to me that starships can win vs. defended planets.  Why?
>  
> Well, for most TLs, simple thermodynamics. Planets have really good
> heat sinks, ships do NOT.  This implies more energy resources for most
> average tech level (ie. 12) worlds.  Combines with better sensors and
> greater personnel resources, ships die hard.

First of all, the average TL is *not* 12, it's 7-8 (ie Earth today). A 
hostile atmosphere gives you a +1, but even then you're only looking at 
8-9, which isn't much against a TL12 ship.

Yes, against a well-defended world a DD wouldn't last 5 minutes, but the 
sort of worlds I'm talking about won't *be* well-defended. 
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 18:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'

In-Reply-To: <980214.051119.1S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Leonard,

> In Japan, computer programs that display characters (usually popular
> Anime characters) in various outfits are quite popular. Though the
> wardrobe options aren't as elaborate. 
>  
> Rather than be "anatomically incorrect", they just don't let you remove
> the underwear.  Though some *will* if you are either persistent enough,
> or know the "trick".

You can find a few of these on the WWW.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:31:55 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Total War...

At 10:59 am 2/15/98 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>Hey, thinking about Iraq brought this to mind (combined with the
>whole nuking Japan issue).
>
>If bombing population centers is wrong by any agreed upon rules of
>war (in traveller) then is it equally abhorent to put *any* military
>facility or any military related industry in a civilian area? I
>would say yes. You can't have it both ways.

	The Geneva convention explicitly recognizes this. It defines unlawful
targets, such as schools, hospitals, religious centers and cultural places.
But if you use *any* unlawful target for military purposes, you forfeit its
status as a protected item, and it becomes a lawful and appropriate target
for military action. Use an ambulance to transport troops to the front, and
all ambulances are now fair game. Station your troops in a church, and
expect to get it bombed. Fire on enemy troops from a hospital window, and
expect retaliation.

	The whole idea behind the Laws of Armed Conflict was to agree on what
would be permissible, so you can rely on your enemy to do the same. You
treat POWs right, and hope the enemy does the same.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:50:36 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

> look at how Greg Porter is distributing *his* material

I finally got to the hypermedia site and bought the electronic copies 
of Slag! (space combat) and 3G3.  This is a brillaint way to buy games, 
in my opnion.  I already had 3G3 in paper, but the ability to search 
electronically, edit tables for my own campaigns, print out alternate 
rules for my players is wonderful!  Well worth $10.  And the associated 
3G3 spreadsheet is very well designed - I love the idea of including 
distance-velocity diagrams in "gun catalogs" as well as the game 
statistics.

The other advantage is that, in this example, I have never seen Slag! 
in the UK, and I dounbt that i would by it given the usual cost of such 
small volume imports.  e-mail and credit cards mean that I can buy at 
US prices very easily ... how would that suit TMLers in 
NZ/Europe/Canada/wherever?

With so many people on the TML wanting to produce and use computerised 
design tools, just think how useful it would be if you could 
cut-and-paste those big look-up tables directily into your spreadsheet, 
along with your own house rules to reduce the minimum size of power 
plants or whatever.

Virtually all of the current T4 books would offer me benefits if I had 
them in electronic form.  I am a sufficeint Traveller fan that I would 
almost certainly buy them in paper as well (so I can read them on 
train/plane journeys), but after the initial read-through, I normally 
only want to "dip" into specific section - which is easier (for me) 
with electronic versions.  I have piles of Traveller material 
stretching back to the original black bookas and JTAS 1 ... but I still 
wait in eager anticipation of the traveller CD.  Just think, I can pull 
all of those Library Data entries from all the adventures, Journals, 
web sites, etc and compile the version for My Traveller Universe.  I 
can hardly wait.


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:44:20 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <34E4DEE3.41E2@edgenet.net>
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> > > ISTR French land-based nuclear missiles have (had?) a fairly short range -
> > > just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!
> > >
> > Well, they're back "in", sort of.  They never really left the political
> > arm, just the military arm.  And now, they're kind of "back."
> 
> I don't think they're fully integrated yet (if ever).
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

The French, sadly, will never be fully integrated with anybody except
themselves.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:30:22 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: War Crimes

The reason the attack stopped was
> because the job was over - liberating Kuwait was the *only* objective
> authorised by the UN.

THat is true, and the 4000 dead we were supposed to get taking out the
remaining 8-14 Republican Guard divisions around Bahgdad.  That were
fortified and had no place to run to.

It was a gamble that shithead would be ousted and we lost.  So what? 
Were not going to invade now anyway.  

I am worried about those 3000 gallons of liquid anthrax though.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:37:42 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Total War...

>         The whole idea behind the Laws of Armed Conflict was to agree on what
> would be permissible, so you can rely on your enemy to do the same. You
> treat POWs right, and hope the enemy does the same.


True.  We get breifed on and are expected to enforce these laws as
officers.  The idea is that you start the war with all the "laws" in
force and as one side or the other decides to violate you reciprocate.

Easy to do when you have the upper hand in a conflict, but what happens
if you cant spare resources to maintain prisoners and you know they will
rearm and try to kill you as soon as you release/stop watching them?

The problem is that he who wins...wins.  Don't be unfortunate enough to
lose.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:59:10 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Total War...

At 01:37 pm 2/15/98 -0600, you wrote:
>The problem is that he who wins...wins.  Don't be unfortunate enough to
>lose.

	The ultimate law of war ... 
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #174
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 175



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Total War...
Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Total War...
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Bagrii Seige Wagon (TL1)
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
New developments in Laser Focusing!
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products
Alien Languages and True Type Fonts
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: My last comment on warfare
Ine Givar
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Pavanne
Re: WWIII in Germany
Re: Relieved of Duty!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:17:17 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:29:24 +1300, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> The maths worked out the same for me :) If you put the numbers into TNE you
> get a Dam of 1D6-1, the same as a .22 Long Rifle. Now the .22LR has been
> used to kill an elephant with one shot, but I don't think you could do that
> with one rock of that size. 
> 
> I suspect that rocks are dangerous for their energy because of their
> relatively high momentum. This same high momentum/low energy compared to a
> .22LR is why I don't think a rock would work on an elephant (poor
> penetration).

Errr, would you care to expand on the lethality of a .22LR vs. an elephant?
I'm sorry but the ballistics behind the .22LR make it difficult enough to
even penetrate the elephant's thick skin, let alone a one shot kill (hell,
a .357 magnum will "bounce" off an elephant's skull).



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:53:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Total War...

 
> >war (in traveller) then is it equally abhorent to put *any* military
> >facility or any military related industry in a civilian area? I
> >would say yes. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> 	The Geneva convention explicitly recognizes this. It defines unlawful
> targets, such as schools, hospitals, religious centers and cultural places.
> But if you use *any* unlawful target for military purposes, you forfeit its
> status as a protected item, and it becomes a lawful and appropriate target
 
I meant more broadly. If you put an ammo dump *next* to a school,
for example. The letter of the convention is not broken, but there
has to be (IMO) some thought to the reality of conflict.

If you put an installation in a city (anyplace) and defend it (AAA,
SAMs, whatever) then you increase the chances that the enemy who is
honestly just trying to wreak the military target, will hit buildings
around it.

> 	The whole idea behind the Laws of Armed Conflict was to agree on what
> would be permissible, so you can rely on your enemy to do the same. You
> treat POWs right, and hope the enemy does the same.
 
Yeah. I'd think that in a world where 1 ton bombs are typical
weapons the rules should be written to include their use. In other
words don't make laws that don't make sense.

So you'd say that it is unlawful within the convention to put a
military installation, or a military factory in an area with a
population density greater than X people/km^2.  The law then states
that "all military targets and factories are viable targets."

If you want to put a AAA battery on the roof of a hospital, go
ahaead, but bombing it is just fine.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 20:38 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Nasty troops(was Null development in key areas)

In-Reply-To: <fc.001cfe5700011b623b9aca00fca234f9.11b74@nynet.nybe.on.ca>

Rob,

> >>Actually the Ghurkas are pretty much the all time nail eaters.
> >>Royal Marines are reputed to be just as good if not better than the
> >>average US Marine.
>  
> Then there was the Ghurka who held a position all night against repeated
> assaults by a Japanese company. While I forget most of the details, I
> remember that after his right hand was blown off by a hand grenade (he'd
> been throwing them back), he got "very very angry" and counter-attacked.
> The company retreated.

I think that was the second or third grenade he'd thrown back. After losing his 
right hand, he was forced to fire his rifle with his left, which he continued 
doing until reinforcements arrived 3 hours later. He won a VC for that, and 
AFAIK he's still alive today.

> The Ghurkas, like the RM and SAS, go out of their way to create these
> legends, then live up to them.

If your enemy believe they can't beat you, they're probably right.

> Also, they have been shabbily treated by the British, so that many widows
> and invalids are in financial need. There is a fund you can contribute to

Sadly, this is true.

> - and who knows, having the Ghurkas as friends could be handy one day!

Well I certainly wouldn't want them as my enemy!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 20:38 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In-Reply-To: <980214.222559.1V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Leonard,

> With any rock of a "decent" size, "burning up" makes things *worse*,
> because the *real* damage from a large strike is in the extra heat
> energy pumped into the planetary weather system. It'll make El Nino
> look tame.
>  
[snip]
>  
> So "burning up" is somewhat better than a sea strike, but a lot worse
> than a land strike.
>  
> In any case, the planetary weather system will be really messed up. As
> in major storms, droughts, floods, all that fun stuff.

Basically, wherever it hits, we're fucked.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:43:24 -0800
From: Eric Evans <ebevans@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Total War...

The rules regarding aerial bombardment are contained in the Protocols
Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, Protocol I:

Article 51, paragraph 4

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:

a) those which are not aimed at a specific military objective;
b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed
at a specific military objective; or
c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which
cannot be limited as required by this Protocol;

and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military
objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

Article 51, paragraph 5

Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as
indiscriminate:

a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a
single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct
military objectives located in [a populated civilian area].
b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian
life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination
thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct
military advantage anticipated.

Article 51, paragraph 6

Attacks against the civilian population by way of reprisals are prohibited.

Protocol I was negotiated between 1974 and 1977; I don't believe that the
United States has ratified it, though it abides by these restrictions--and
in fact does more than it needs to. All the Protocols actually require is
that the military not purposely target civilians or define its targets in
such a way that civilians are included. Notice that it's perfectly OK to
kill civilians as long as civilian casualties are not "excessive in
relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated."

So blowing up that bunker during the Gulf War was perfectly legal; no one
"expected" that it was full of civilians. The military is more constrained
by public opinion than it is by actual international law.

- -----------------------------------------
Eric Evans

"There seemed an
                 inevitability in
          degradation"
			  --T.E. Lawrence

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:53:29 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

> 
> Basically, wherever it hits, we're fucked.


Yep.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:25:29 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Bagrii Seige Wagon (TL1)

Bagrii Seige Wagon (TL1)
Designed by Robert Prior

This vehicle was designed using the rules in the Central Supply Catalog,
with the following variations: uses draft team, realistic unloaded speed,
realistic stress.

Summary:
     0.26 displacement ton open-topped box;  10.8 tonnes;  Cr 7537
Chassis:
     3.64 kL open-topped box (2.4 m long x 1.2 m wide x 1.2 m high);  
Structure: 137 kg of heavy wood, rated for 1.0Gs, body 1.0 cm thick, 1
armour rating
     
Performance:
     50.0 kW TL0 draft animals; Fuel: 0 mL of food (0.000 g), 0 hours
supply
     Propulsion System: 50.0 kW wheels; 
Maximum Speed: 4 km/h loaded, 4 km/h unloaded; Range: 0 km; Agility: +2DM
(0.0G); 
     
Crew:
     Crew roster: driver, 2 gunners;  3 crew stations
Armament:
     Weapon                          Damage    Range          Shots   
Reloads   Notes
     Ballista-1                      4         Short          1       2   
     2 gunners
Communications:
     No communicators installed.
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     13.7 L of cargo space (6.85 kg)

Slow and lumbering, the Bagrii is none-the-less fast enough to keep up
with an infantry advance; unlike most seige engines, which must be
dismantled and reassembled each time they are moved. While this mobility
is of little use in conventional seiges, it is very useful against heavy
infantry units who lack cavalry screens. 

Extra ammunition is carried in a separate cart.


(Designed with Infini-V: Traveller's Vehicle Design Studio. Copyright
Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:26:26 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

At 08:17 PM 15/02/98 GMT, James W. Lindsay wrote:
>
>Errr, would you care to expand on the lethality of a .22LR vs. an elephant?
>I'm sorry but the ballistics behind the .22LR make it difficult enough to
>even penetrate the elephant's thick skin, let alone a one shot kill (hell,
>a .357 magnum will "bounce" off an elephant's skull).
>
It did happen, and was verified by doing it again. 

IIRC it was in (then) Rhodesia, quite some time back. The first time some
landowner's son was shooting birds and thought he'd scare off an elephant
he saw, and to his surpirse killed it. Needless to say his father was not
amused. When said father was telling the District Commisioner (or whatever
his title was) he expressed disbelief, so it was agreed that the landowner
would try to repeat the performance, using the Commisioner's elephant quota
(they had a certain quota of elephants per farm , for the landowners to
feed their native workers with). The landowner successfully repeated the feat.

What happened in both cases was that the shot was fired into the left side
of the elephant just as it extended its left leg forward to take a step.
The .22 bullets were solids, and they were aimed at the side of the heart.
With the skin streched taut the bullets could penetrate it, even though if
it had been loose and elastic they would've bounced off. The bullets went
into the heart of the elephants, who then simply twitched as if stung and
walked off, showing little or no distress, and dropped dead after wlking a
few hundred yards.

One of the reasons (the main one is lack of repect) that .22s kill so many
people accidentally is that if they hit someone at a mile plus they do so
little immediate damage that the vistim assumes that it was just a scratch
or insect bite. Hoever the bullet penetrates deeply, and if it was in the
torso the vistim suddenly dies, or gets very sick and by the time they are
taken to hospital it's often too late.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:40:06 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: New developments in Laser Focusing!

Well folks, apparently back in 1997 there was a significant development
here in laser optics.

A picosecond plasma mirroir which can handle a 10^15 Watt laser beam. 
reference page 95 of the january 1998 DISCOVER magazine for details.

It sems to me that this might provide an intermediate step from the
conventional optics being deployed today and the grav focusing of high
TLs.  I have always used grav focusing and I think it is just as nifty a
wandwave/speculation as nuc dampers and artificial grav itself.

Heck, would Edison have figured that the electrical enginering of his
day would give rise to the computers were corresponding on?  Nope.  Tech
develops in th crazierst ways.

These technologies are the very essence of what makes Imperial Traveller
kick-butt.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:41:25 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

Actually, a 357 probably wont do anything, but a twenty two can punce
through the brain case (6+ inches of bone) and acquaint the brain with
jellification.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:17:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Hold of BITS/CORE Products

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) wrote:

>On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:06:41 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> At 09:15 AM 2/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Hi All,
>>
>> >For fans in the US, the low cost of each book (about $7-8) means that it's
>> >not very efficient to mail order it from us (air mail costs a lot!). We are
>> >investigating the possibility of 'proper' distribution in the US, but this
>> >process has been held up because of a lack of contact currently with IG
>> >(California). Of course, it may be possible for some US FLGS's to order
>> >direct from Esdevium or Hobby Games in the UK. If anyone has any contacts
>> >in the business, please get in touch.
>>
>> Would be easier if I ordered all of them at once, to be mailed in bulk?
>
>Or perhaps two (or more) such order requests, to be distributed from a
>single US or Canadian address (hint, hint)?

You could try contacting Leisure Games in London (details reposted below).
Their February Catalogue shows all the 101 books, but not Tim Collinsons'
excellent Bibliography.


>Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:41:53 +0000
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: BITS Products - non-UK customers!
>
>For those of you in the US and overseas who can't get hold of the BITS
>books...
>
>You might try Leisure Games in London (VISA, Mastercard etc)
>
>Tel 0181-346-2327
>Fax 0181-343-3888
>leisuregames@btinternet.com
>
>http://www.btinternet.com/~leisuregames/
>
>They have the following products listed in their current catalogue - 101
>cargos, 101 Plots, 101 Rendezvous, 101 Travellers - all at four pounds
>fifty pence UK sterling each. Postage to Europe is +20%, Elsewhere +50%.
>
>Naturally, in living in the UK, I haven't ordered from overseas with them,
>but they have regularly delivered orders to me within two working days. I'd
>recommend contacting them before you order to ensure everything goes
>smoothly and to make sure that the products are in.
>
>Happy Christmas
>
>Dom


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:42:18 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Alien Languages and True Type Fonts

Hi

  Does anyone on this list know of any windows true type fonts
that have been created for the Alien races in Traveller.  

  I had done some very basic font editing, in TAS Font for the
Spectrum computer quite a number of years ago, and generated a 
version of the Trokh script.

  Thanks

Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:54:54 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

At 04:41 PM 15/02/98 -0500, Dan wrote:
>Actually, a 357 probably wont do anything, but a twenty two can punce
>through the brain case (6+ inches of bone) and acquaint the brain with
>jellification.
>
If you're still talking about elephants, then there's more than just bone
in the skull, but also a large number of air and fluid filled sinuses.
These act somewhat like spaced or composite armour, and have been known to
deflect .458 Winchester Magnum bullets. That's why flank shots into the
heart, or the brain from behind are the prefered shots on elephants.

Note though that the little .22 is one of the most energy efficient killers
around, and because of its small cross section, along with a velocity low
enough that solid bullets don't deform much, has a penetration all out of
proportion to its sive or muzzle energy. A .22LR solid will penetrate
nearly 12" of solid pine, though it takes little steel to stop it dead (I
guess penetration of steel is more closely related to ME).


- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 22:17 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: My last comment on warfare

In-Reply-To: <980214.225402.0d3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Leonard,

> 1. Hitler "annexing" the Sudentenland.
> 2. Saddam Hussein "annexing" Kuwait.
>  
> In the former, rather than use force, the annexation was accepted. In
> the latter, the annexation was *forcibly* reversed. Alas, the follow
> thru was insufficient, as Saddam *still* doesn't "get" the idea that he
> is *not* allowed to prepare to attack his neighbors. Nor does he seem
> to recall that he got a ceasefire (*not* "peace") by agreeing to the
> terms he now refuses to honor. :-(

Iraq shows the problem of what happens when one side plays by the rules 
and the other doesn't. There is no "legal" way I can see of solving it. 
Saddam doesn't care about sanctions - *he* isn't suffering - and his 
army/secret police are enough to keep the people under control. Saddam 
probably isn't stupid enough to start a proper war. The UN can't - and 
wouldn't - authorise an invasion, occupation, or assassination, and no 
individual country is willing to do it alone, partly because it's a major 
job, partly because it's "against the rules", but mostly because it sets 
a bad precedent (if the US sends a hit squad to take out Saddam, why 
shouldn't Iran do the same to Clinton?).

The Imperium, of course, wouldn't give a **** - they'd just send in the 
Marines!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:38:28 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Ine Givar

In response to a number of requests, my posts on the Ine Givar are now
archived on my web site. You can find them (along with a number of other
of my strange ramblings) at:

<http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/library/Library.htm>

As usually any comments/additions/hints etc good bad or otherwise are
very much appreciated.

The original posts can be found in TML digests numbers 140 and 168.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:49:38 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:41:25 -0500, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:

> Actually, a 357 probably wont do anything, but a twenty two can punce
> through the brain case (6+ inches of bone) and acquaint the brain with
> jellification.

Pardon my French-- but I don't bloody think so!  Are we talking about the
same cartridge here?  The 100+ year-old .22 Long Rifle, rimfire cartridge?

Perhaps you are confusing the .22LR with the .22 Hornet, .220 Swift, .222
Remington/Remington Magnum, or .223 Remington?  And even those cartridges
would have difficulty with 6+ inches of solid bone...

The .470 Nitro Express "elephant gun" didn't even necessarily kill an
elephant out right.  The old .470's 500g, 2,150 fps, 5,130 ft/lb bullet
would often simply knock the elephant unconscious during headshots.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:06:46 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

> would often simply knock the elephant unconscious during headshots.
> 

I see that here is a need to clarify my statement.

IIRC this was explicitly stated in a reloading manual I own.  Note that
small cross section slugs are more efficient penetrators.  If you would
like, I'll try to find the paragraph, but its really not that important
to me.  A 22 has a much better changce of penetrating ballistic cloth
armor than does a .30 cal.  In any case, I am making a caliber
comparison and not speaking about any specific round.

I haven't studied terminal ballistics for years, and I petty much accept
the arguments posited in FF&S1 concerning total impact energy.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:16:50 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: "Dress Me Up" a Traveller 'Childrens' Toy'

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote:
>> In Japan, computer programs that display characters (usually popular
>> Anime characters) in various outfits are quite popular.  Though the 
>> wardrobe options aren't as elaborate. 
>
> You can find a few of these on the WWW.

Yes.  Visit http://www.otakuworld.com/kiss/ to get started with
KISS (KIsekae Set System - 'kisekae ningyou' is Japanese, and means
something like 'playing dress-up with dolls).  You'll need a program (they 
have links to software for Windows 3.1, 95, and NT; Mac, UNIX, Amiga and 
Acorn computers) and lots of dolls (data files).  Some particularly nice
files to start out with are Nikki Silk, the Two Ranmas, Yu-ki Shinomiya,
and Playgirl (no, not _that_ playgirl).

Some of the dolls have pretty extensive wardrobe options!

Win95 software   http://www.msen.com/~crandall/playkiss.html
Nikki Silk doll  http://www.otakuworld.com/kiss/download/data/kf_nsilk.lzh
Two Ranmas doll  http://www.otakuworld.com/kiss/download/data/2ranmas.lzh
Yu-ki doll       http://www.otakuworld.com/kiss/download/data/yasuks3n.lzh
Playgirl doll    http://www.otakuworld.com/kiss/download/data/litks13e.lzh



wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:18:55 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:06:46 -0500, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:

> I see that here is a need to clarify my statement.
> 
> IIRC this was explicitly stated in a reloading manual I own.  Note that
> small cross section slugs are more efficient penetrators.  If you would
> like, I'll try to find the paragraph, but its really not that important
> to me.  A 22 has a much better changce of penetrating ballistic cloth
> armor than does a .30 cal.  In any case, I am making a caliber
> comparison and not speaking about any specific round.

Ah, ok.  Yes, calibre isn't everything.  When comparing *only* projectile
calibre, the smaller bullet will *always* out penetrate larger bullets.
This is part of the basis of flechette and discarding sabot technology.




James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:16:26 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Pavanne

Douglas Sinclair schrieb:
> 
> Is there an official ruling on Pavanne (Spinward Marches, 2905)?
> The MT Imperial Encyclopedia gives it a UWP of C669452-A.  The Traveller
> Adventure gives it E210000-0, and describes it as a barren world.  The map
> in the MT Player's Manual shows it to have an E class starport.
The CT Spinward Marches Supplement also supports the TA data, so the MT
Enc is probably worng.
> 
> While I'm on the subject of the Aramis subsector, the Imperial Encyclopedia
> notes that Patinir is an Ancient site.  Is there any information on this
> anywhere?
Nothing in the SM-Supplement, nothing in the TA, no other source of
Canon that I know of ever mentioned this site. Maybe a mistake by GDW,
maybe a mistake by imperial mappers ;-)

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:38:42 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: WWIII in Germany

>Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:32:30 +0800
>From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
>Subject: WWIII in Germany (was Re:  Nill development in key areas)

>> That s what i figured all along. Had war broken out, the US would have
>> defended us, and when they would have been done with that, we re no
>> better off than had the russians taken us over! Using nukes to defend
>> territory is the most insane practice I ever heard of!

>Wasn't there an old black joke about a tactical nuclear weapon being on
>ethat fell on Germany?

I believe the quote is:
"In Germany the villages are just 2 Kilotons apart"

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:54:22 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

>Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:20:27 +0100
>From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
>Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

>Leonard Erickson schrieb:

>> >> Personnel may refuse to perform orders they judge to be illegal, however
>> >> their refusal may lead to immediate arrest, detention and subsequent court
>> >> martial on grounds of treason, mutiny, or insorbordination.

>> > So what *legally* can the command crew (say) do if the CO starts giving
>> > illegal orders?

>> Get the orders in writing and log their objections.
>In Germany, we were told in basic just to say "No!". Some orders may not
>be followed no matter what! Violations of the Geneva Convention, f.e.!
> (If you do, youre screwed, no matter if you got the order in writing)

In NZ the ruling is when faced with what you believe to be an illegal
order, you refuse stating your reasons and if the order is repeated you
must follow it. So you get the order in writting and log your objections
and then bring the matter to the attention of higher authorities at the
earliest opportunity (this last bit is vital, you can object all you like,
but if you don't inform higher command your stuffed).

IMTU the CO can be removed by the 2iC at any time, but the 2iC must be
prepared to justify their actions to a review board. The MO may require
the 2iC remove the CO, but must present medical evidence that the CO is
medically unfit.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #175
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 16 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 176



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Trading
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Relieved of Duty!
[T98#170] Trash Can Punch (was: Alcohol Proof?)
planetary bombardment
GURPS traveller playtesting
Getting Stoned
Pluton...
Re: Relieved of Duty!
Traveller Items Wanted - Dearly!
RE: What accents do you use...
Re: Jump Bomb
Galaxies in collision?
Luriani (part two)
Re: Vegan PCs
MJD(S)
re:  Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
re: The value of an Imperial Credit?
TNE Era Sector Data
addenda to CE debate
Re: GURPS traveller playtesting
Re: Nuking Japan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:23:48 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> SemoFetus@aol.com schrieb:
>
> > In the United States, christianity has been growing by leaps and bounds over
> > the last couple of years as well.
> Not growing, the numbers remain the same. The CC and allies of them just
> got more aggressive and vocal the last years, thereby gaining in
> influence. No new Christians are beeing converted in the US, AFAIK!

The reported percentage of those identifying themselves as christians in the US
has been strongly increasing in the last 15 years, especially as the children of
the baby boomers reach adulthood.  Also dramatic increase in those regularly
attending services.

[snip]

> > However, the Third Imperium has one very big something that the layman can
> > actually hear about, and possibly see, in action that completely circumvents
> > pretty much the rest of the universe.  J-Drive.  There's no explanation, it
> > just works.
> WE have no explanation for JD, who says people in the 3I dont know how
> it works? I believe they do and just because we dont have an
> explanation (If we had, wed be flying to the stars within a year!)
> doent mean people i the 3I have no concept of Jump. Unless you find
> something contradiction in canon, thats how i see it!

With all due respect, Volker, I think we both asked you for canon on the subject.
If there is no canon, we can agree to disagree and live happily ever after.  :-)

> > religions are going to step in and answer these questions.  Personally, I
> > think religion would color a Traveller game most effectively, if used in the
> > right dosages.  After all, there is a religion behind every religious
> No contest, religion is out there, but on a smaller scale than you
> think:
> No State Religion of the 3I, no officially endorsed religion, no
> religion controlling most of the imperium, no single religion greater
> than say 1% of the entire imperial population.

Ok, as long as we're clear that this is _your_ 3I and not my 3I, since canon is
silent (and wisely so) on the subject.

So, seeing no canon on the subject, I'm going to implement my ideas.  Almost done
btw, will soon have up on webbage for your reading pleasure.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:51:57 -0500
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: Trading

If any one is into Trading Items, Please Drop a Personal line to Me.

Scott Spieker, if You are still interested in trading something for your 
Vampire Fleets, I have some CT Material That I am Willing to Trade with.

Thanks,
John 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 19:16:05 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

On 02/15/98 at 08:17 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>> The maths worked out the same for me :) If you put the numbers into TNE you
>> get a Dam of 1D6-1, the same as a .22 Long Rifle. Now the .22LR has been
>> used to kill an elephant with one shot, but I don't think you could do that
>> with one rock of that size. 
>> 
>> I suspect that rocks are dangerous for their energy because of their
>> relatively high momentum. This same high momentum/low energy compared to a
>> .22LR is why I don't think a rock would work on an elephant (poor
>> penetration).

>Errr, would you care to expand on the lethality of a .22LR vs. an
>elephant? I'm sorry but the ballistics behind the .22LR make it difficult
>enough to even penetrate the elephant's thick skin, let alone a one shot
>kill (hell, a .357 magnum will "bounce" off an elephant's skull).

Humm, a .22LR through the eye and directly into the brain, would do it. 
It'd be one lucky shot, though.  I've got my doubts about a rock and a
grizzly, I *sure* wouldn't want to put it to a test.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:28:58 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

For those who want a really great read in this general subject area, try _The
Caine Mutiny._

Watch the movie if you like, but the book is a much better discussion of the
problems involved with this whole subject, from the POV of a WWII
Destroyer/Minesweeper crew.

Extra points for the movie: Name the actor who plays the bad guy (Hint: It is
NOT Humphrey Bogart).

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:59:49 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#170] Trash Can Punch (was: Alcohol Proof?)

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:51:02 -0500, "Richard A. Flores"
<cybernot@gte.net> wrote:

>>One of the very few alcoholic drinks I can tolerate the taste of is something
>>called "Purple Passion".  It is Everclear;  I am not sure of the proof, but it
>>is not 200.  It tastes like grape juice, but I can never seem to remember
>>finishing one...  :-)

>Reminds me of "Trash Can Punch" from my University days.  To make it, you
>take a 55 gallon trash can (washed well and disinfected and lined with a new
>white can liner or 3).  In it, the night before, you put 5 gallons of
>Everclear and half a bushel of pealed oranges.  Just before the party, add
>20 cans of frozen grape juice concentrate, 20 liters of 7-up (or other clear
>citrus soft drink), and as much water as is needed to make 50 gallons.

So, 55 gal. of "stuff", roughly 9% of it C2H5OH.  I get 18 proof
from that; IIRC, wine is typically 12% or 24 proof.  This isn't
very potent; "damp" sites in my medievalist organization wouldn't
have any problem with something like this. (A "damp" site allows
beer, wine, and mead, but nothing stronger).

I wouldn't have more than one of these if I were driving within
about 24hrs (personal policy), but otherwise, I'd have no problem
with it - since I always do alcohol in moderation anyway
(personal policy).

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:51:06 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: planetary bombardment

Note that, although meson weapons aren't equivalent to anything more
than (small) tactical nukes (the "Coronation"'s spinal mount has a
yield of about 25 tonnes of TNT), they can fire pretty continuously - 
and a series of small explosions is much more efficient than a single
big explosion; damage caused by nukes generally goes as yield to the
2/3 or 1/2 (I can't remember precisely which) - so 100 pulses by the
Coronation's gun are equivalent to 25 kilotonnes, or one Hiroshima-
sized bomb. If I read the Coronation correctly it's ROF 800/30 min (which,
I think, is actually illegal under FFS2...); so it produces the
equivalent of a Hiroshima every 4 minutes or so. It could replicate
the effect of the ten thousand-odd warheads in the US arsenal in
about a month - and that's a single battleship. Its 9 auxilliary
meson guns produce the equivalent of 1 tonne of TNT - a 2000-pound-bomb -
every two seconds or so. The spinal mount or meson bay on a destroyer
would be in the latter class - which should still do pretty well
at devastating a city or a "typical" population-5 or -6 world.
And, as others have noted, standard 6g12 missiles strike with an
energy of about 4x10^13 joules (200,000m/s)^2 * 1000 kg = 10 kT,
and a destroyer can carry about a hundred of them. All this is only
really effective against an undefended world, of course.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:56:36 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: GURPS traveller playtesting

Whatever the fate of IG may be (does anyone know if Greg Porter's post
on r.g.frp.misc was the real Greg Porter?), I'm interested in finding another
forum for my overdeveloped opinions on technical issues - so I'd like to 
at least have some peripheral involvement with GurpsTrav playtesting. Could
someone advise me as to the best mechanism for this? Does playtesting access
come free with io.com membership? Do messages from random io.com members get
listened to, or is there a more select list of playtesters?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:00:29 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Getting Stoned

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Aside: I remember the story of how Bob Feller, the famous baseball pitcher,
was discovered by a scout. The scout was on his way to a see a game out in
the county and got lost.  When he saw a young man far out in a grain field
he stopped to ask directions, calling the boy over.  When the young man got
near the scout noticed that he was carrying a sack in each hand.  The scout
asked the man what was in the sacks.

"Well, sir, this one has dead rabbits for my supper." said the lad holding
up one sack.

"And this one has my rocks." he said holding up the other.

Bob Feller had been "stoning" rabbits in the field, one rock, one throw,
one dead rabbit...or so the story goes. ;->

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A friend of mine, one Jim Babcock, was on our high school track & field 
team. He would borrow the team's 20lb shotput and take it home to practice 
with. No one wanted to use it afterwards...it seems "Babo" would practice 
by hunting woodchucks with it.  <squish>



Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:17:52 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Pluton...

Hello,
>> better off than had the russians taken us over! Using nukes to defend
>> territory is the most insane practice I ever heard of!

  For "defense of" they can be useful (we assume) - it's merely crucial
to use them _somewhere else_ in fulfilling that role.


>ISTR French land-based nuclear missiles have (had?) a fairly short range - 
>just about long enough to reach Germany! Bet you're glad they left NATO!

  Possibly the Pluton system. You can't really accuse the French of
not having their priorities worked out :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:49:09 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> For those who want a really great read in this general subject area, try _The
> Caine Mutiny._
> 
> Watch the movie if you like, but the book is a much better discussion of the
> problems involved with this whole subject, from the POV of a WWII
> Destroyer/Minesweeper crew.
> 
> Extra points for the movie: Name the actor who plays the bad guy (Hint: It is
> NOT Humphrey Bogart).
> 
> Loren Wiseman

Fred MacMurray.

The Caine Mutiny was used as a training film at OCS back in 1989.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:16:27 -0500
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Traveller Items Wanted - Dearly!

Hi again,
	I have been having some difficulty in locating items to help enhance my
collection as well as my reffing.  I cannot seem to even find someone who
owns any of the following items, let alone be able to
trade/purchase/steal/what-have-you to even get a photocopy.  Does anyone
actually own a copy of these items, and if so, what will it cost me to get
a copy (original or photocopied) for myself?

	DGP Items
	-------------------
	Grand Census
	Grand Survey
	101 Robots


	I have included a list of items that I am willing to trade/sell for a copy
of one of the other items above:
	The numbers after the items list their 'wear' on a scale of 1-5 with one
being the best condition possible for a used item.

	Shadows/Mission on Mithril Deluxe boxed set adventure (8+1/2"x11"
version)(2.5)
	Spinward Marches Campaign (minus Marches poster map) (2)
	Rebellion Sourcebook (1)
	Imperial Encyclopedia (1)
	Referee's Companion (1)
	Player's Manual (1)

	Book 6 Scouts (4)
	Traveller Digest #8 (1)
	JTAS #24 (2.5)
	JTAS #23 (2)
	JTAS #22 (1)
	BOJTAS #3 (2)
	BOJTAS #2 (3)
	Supplement #13 Veterans (2)
	Supplement #2 Animal Encounters (1.5)
	Double Adventure #6 Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest (1)
	Double Adventure #4 Marooned/Marooned Alone (1.5)
	Double Adventure #3 Argon Gambit/Death Station (2.5)
	Double Adventure #2 Mission on Mithril/Across the bright face (2.5)
	Double Adventure #1 Shadows/Annic Nova (3)
	Adventure #11 Murder on Arcturus Station (1)
	Adventure #10 Safari Ship (2.5)
	Adventure #9 Nomads of the world ocean (2)
	Adventure #7 Broadsword (2)
	Adventure #6 Expedition to Zhodane (2.5)
	Adventure #4 Leviathan (2.5)
	(2x) Adventure #1 The Kinunir (Both 3)
	

	I also have several other 'single' items that I would not be opposed of
trading/selling.  Those items are as follows:
	High Passage #3 (FASA, 82)
	Sapies (Group One, 81)
	Starships and Space craft (JG)
	(2x) Ghostring (JG)
	Simba Safari (JG)
	Darthanon Queen (JG)
	The traveller logbook (JG)
	Waspwinter (JG)
	Amycus Probe (JG)
	Nystalux (GO)
	Geptorem (GO)
	Wabor-parn (GO)

	I also have an extensive collection of Traveller Digest magazines and
Challenge magazines.  I am not willing to part with the originals of these
items, but I am willing to make photocopies if the deal is good.  This
photocopies concept extends to any other items that I own (which there is a
great deal not listed here) which can and should be taken into
consideration when looking for other items.

Please reply to: scspieker@ncweb.com

Thanks,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:47:42 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: What accents do you use...

At 04:15 PM 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Doug:
>
>These are great!  Just what I was hoping to get with my original *troll*...
>
>re: Vargr
>> "Human!  How much"<pause>"For the red white and orange 'Dreadnaughts'
>> jacket?"<pause>"Ring it up!" *manical laughter*
>
>I would *love* to know the story behind this one!

In my campaign, Roller Ball is a very popular sport in Lunion Subsector.
On Lunion itself, one of the ongoing powers has been the Stevenson City
Dreadnaughts (named for the numerous Navy support and construction
facilities around and above the city)

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:04:36 -0800
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Bomb

>You would have to be really, really, REALLY close for a dumb jump
>bomb to work.  Its basically a mine.  It would be best if it had
>a det laser warhead or at least some sort of gravitically directed
>explosive jet (a la TDX).

Hey, whatever happened to TDX? It showed up in Striker and a couple of JTAS
articles, then disappeared completely, it isn't even in Emperor's Arsenal.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 05:28:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Galaxies in collision?

Hey all,
    I just caught a news report on the Discovery Channel last night that
Astronomers now believe our galaxy is in the midst of a collision with another
galaxy.  Can anyone confirm this???

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:49:26 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Luriani (part two)

When the Vilani conquerored the Luriani in -4500 they attempted to impose
their culture on the Luriani; Vilani governors were placed in control of
Luriani worlds and the Luriani were expected to conform to Vilani cultural
norms. These efforts were less than successful, though the Luriani did
remain firmly under the control of the Vilani, their culture remained
largely intact, the Vilani were never able to stamp out the emotional and
independent nature of the Luriani. Thus when the Solomani arrived in the
Fornast sector in -2223 they were greeted as liberators by the Luriani and
a number of Luriani units served in the Terran forces during their final
drive on Vland, proving that they had lost none of their fighting abilities.

With the final defeat of the Vilani in -2219 the Luriani expected that the
Solomani would restore their independence. However they were to be sadly
disappointed. Unlike the Geonee or Suerrat, the Luriani were not granted
autonomy under the Rule of Man. Naturally this bred resentment with in the
Luriani and in -2186 the Luriani rebelled against the Rule of Man. What
followed was a tragedy for the Luriani. Isolated with only a limited
production base, the Luriani faced an alliance of both Terran and Vilani
forces. The Luriani hoped that the other minor races would come to their
aid, these hopes proved futile and the Luriani were gradually worn down and
in -2180 their final stronghold fell and in a cruel turn of fate, the Luriani
again came under Vilani occupation. However under the Rule of Man, Luriani
art and music found a wide audience amongst the Solomani; and this lead to
widespread sympathy for the fate of the Luriani. Finally in -1932 Empress
Juliana established the Luriani Cultural Region. With this the each
individual Luriani world was granted internal self rule, answering to a
Solomani planetary governor, with the entire region under the control of
a military governor general.

With the collapse of the Rule of Man in -1776, the Solomani governor general
of the Luriani Cultural Region found herself isolated and vulnerable. Admiral
Martinez solved her problems by reaching an agreement with the Luriani. She
transformed the Luriani Cultural Region into the Luriani Protectorate. Under
this compromise her fleet provided protection for the Luriani in return for
support, while the Luriani worlds were allowed to retain thier independence.
The Protectorate continued to exist into the Long Night; the Protectorate
gradually evolved into a unique government. The Solomani provided the much
needed skills to administer a large scale interstellar government, whilst the
Luriani provided the neccessary support facilities and their warrior class
came to dominate the Protectorate fleet. Eventually however the Long Night
claimed the Protectorate, by -1200 the Protectorate fleet had dwindled to
just a handful of vessels and contact between the worlds had all but ceased.
In -1183, Protector De Valine acknowledged that the Protectorate could no
longer defend the Luriani worlds. The Solomani settled on the Luriani worlds
and the Luriani Protectorate succumbed to the Long Night.

The situation remained unchanged until the coming of the Syleans. The Sylean
Federation Scout Service reached the Luriani in -19. The arrival of the SFSS
reawakened the Luriani's desires for the stars, Derri had been able to retain
TL7 throughout the Long Night and the Solomani still remained a distinct
racial grouping. Given the prod of the Syleans arrival, the Luriani applied
themselves to regaining the stars. It took the Luriani just 30 years to
recover to TL9 and began to reestablish the Protectorate. By 32, the Luriani
Protectorate was a thriving interstellar community once more, encompassing
most worlds within 5 parsecs of Derri. The Protectorate was a curious state,
one which the new Imperium found hard to understand or deal with. Eventually
the Imperium was forced to do something about the Luriani. Intially they
tried to incorporate the Luriani through diplomatic means and intially this
appeared to be a making progress, but negotiations dragged on and Emperor
Artemsus became frustrated and in 89 an offensive was launched aimed at
settling the matter once and for all. Once again the Luriani proved to be
masters of three dimensional warfare, in 94 the Imperial fleet suffered a
sharp defeat at the Battle of Gusashka and were forced to withdraw. It was
now clear that it would be a formidable task to incorporate the Luriani
through military means. In 95 a peace settlement was negotiated and the
Imperium returned to more indirect methods. Since that time relations between
the Protectorate and the Imperium have remained strained.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:10:39 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Vegan PCs

> Hi
>     I am considering running a campaign in the Solmani Rim area and thought
> about developing the Vegans as a possible player character race.  Before I
> do this I was wondering if anyone has already done this?  If not any
> suggestions, comments, or warnings of impending doom concerning this
> endeavor would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks 
> 

Are you referring to the 'cat-like' vegans?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:56:26 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: MJD(S)

Funny old world, this.

I've been going by my initials (MJD) since I started writing - I can
remember being referred to as 'MJD' by my parents when I was a kid.

For those of us who're confused... There's TWO MJDs on the list. Worse, we
live in the same town and we know each other.

SO; MJD is me. That's Martin James Dougherty. 

The OTHER MJD is Marc J Davison.

That's life, I suppose.

(Or am *I* the other one?)

PS: Anyone seen Missions of State yet? What's it like? (Which is the best
scenario - reviews please!)

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:13:41 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:  Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> wrote:

>The Belter doesn't mine the whole rock; he hasn't got the equipment for that.
>He does, however, collect royalties from the mining company to whom he
>sold the
>rock.

Why not just tag the rock with a beacon and let a company mass driver ship
intercept it and break it down (something like the Andrew Carnegie in
2300's Nyotekundo sourcebook and the system described in Cherryh's Heavy
Time)?


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:18:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: The value of an Imperial Credit?

Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net> wrote:

>So that I can get a better feel for what things should cost in
>Traveller, can anyone tell me what the "Exchange Rate" is between an
>Imperial Credit and a U.S. Dollar?

So you want to buy a jump drive to solve that debate? ;-)

>Really.  I'm not kidding.  :o)

I always used 1 UK pound = 1 credit and assumed that pay was net...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:13:15 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: TNE Era Sector Data

> Anyone know where I can get complete listing for the following sectors in
> the early 1200's :-
> Massilia
> Delphi
> Glimmerdrift Reaches
> Diaspora
> Old Expanses
> Hinter-Worlds
> Solomani Rim
> Alpha Crucis
> Spica

There's none about that I know of...but you can always collapse the 1107
data using <shameless plug> TRTOOLS </shameless plug>.

Look in:  http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/software.html

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

"if it's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess..."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:20:34 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: addenda to CE debate

Bizarrely this weekend...

Happened to pick up H.G. Well's _The Shape of Things to Come_ on Saturday.

Much to my <amusement/surprise/interest> it happens to use CE throughout.
Intrigued I checked the beginning and according to the author it stands for
'Christian Era'.

For those who don't know this book was written in the 1930s and is designed
to be a 'future history' through to the middle of the 22nd century.  Well
worth getting hold of if you can find it second hand as I did.


A just think - a few weeks ago and I wouldn't have even noticed the
usage...  ;-)

tc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:24:18 -0600
From: Scott Galliand <galliand@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS traveller playtesting

One way to become a playtester is to become a member of Illuminati Online
for $10/month with a telnet account.  Until they change it (which I think
they're looking into at the moment) you get access to the playtesting files
for SJG when they become available.  Replies were sent to Usenet-like
newsgroups (restricted to IO), but are now web-based.

To join, you can telnet into IO and enter as a new user.  From there it
brings you into the subscription form.

Scott Galliand.
Scott Galliand
Systems Analyst, Systems Engineering and Management Associates, Inc.
E-mail : galliand@ix.netcom.com
WWW : http://www.io.com/~galliand/  (NOT BACK ONLINE YET)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:40:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

David P. Summers writes:

>Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:05:00 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>However, what the US did was neither against international law (which is
>>>the basis for a "war crime")
> 
>>Hmm... I may be wrong here, but don't international law have something
>>about not targeting civilians?
> 
>Yeah, but targetting cities, and their industrial base, is OK.

As you will have seen from the relevant bits posted by someone else,
targetting cities is not OK. Targetting indivdual military goals
located in a city is OK, but not treating a number of distinct
military sites interspersed with civilian buildings (which is just
what an industrial city is). Mind you, I'm not basing my own beliefs
on this (since I wasn't even sure that it was the case); it just
happens to coincide with my beliefs.

>Otherwise every nation in WWII would guilty of war crimes.

Bingo! Give the man a cigar! Though I guess that some of them gets away
on the technicatity that these rules weren't formulated until 1970 ;-)
Just like a lot of other wrongdoers throughout history must be let off
on the same technicality without making their particular bits of
wrongdoing right.

>However, while I disagree with that idea, it (and the position
>that all war is immoral) is at least consistent unlike attempt
>to single [out] the US dropping of the atomic bomb.

I'm not trying to single out anybody. The question of whether the use of
nuclear bombs against Japan was morally correct arose, and I answered.
If you had asked me about the German terror-bombing of London my answer
would have been similar.

>The bombing of cities was accepted by all sides.

I repeat: If something is wrong then the fact that everybody else is
doing it dosen't make it right. If it is right, it is irrelevant who
else is doing it. 

>Even if one
>wanted apply more modern values to it, one should do it consistently.

So who's inconsistent?
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
- - "You don't like the Goths?"
- -  "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"
- -  "Persecution?"
- -  "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."
- -  "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."
- -  "That's  just  it!  We Orthodox are forced to stand around and
   watch Arians  and Monophysites  and Nestorians  and Jews going
   about  their  business  unmolested,   as  if  they  owned  the
   country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"

                -Martin Padway and stranger in bar in
                         "Lest Darkness Fall"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #176
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 16 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 177



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Minor race homeworlds
Re: Trading
Re: Belters
Religions, Calvinball
Re: Titan Games Preview for (2/15/98) (fwd)
Re: GURPS traveller playtesting
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Ine Givar (long)
re: MJD and Missions of State
Re: Traveller Items Wanted!
Re: GG Refueling (was Belters and mining)
Re: Nukes and nuking
Re: Passenger Liners
Re: Sandcasters
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: new question of the week
Re: War Crimes
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: Religion in America
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: Relieved of Duty!
Re: What accents do you use...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:58:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

Andrew Boulton writes:

>Clayton R. Bush & Bryan Borich have compiled a list (see 
>http://members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/racelist.htm ), which gives:
>  
>MINOR HUMAN RACE  SOURCE*    HOMEWORLD
> - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Acheron		   _Azhanti High Lightning_ ?

>*Altareans        Chuck Kallenbach,       Vanguard Reaches   Subsector N
>Answerin         Travellers' Digest 5    Vland 0431 Answerin/Parsi
>*Azhanti          James Maliszewski       Antares 2315 Irale/Gimgir

Also mentioned in _Azhanti High Lightning_ (Surprise!)

>?Bye-Ren          Aliens Archive          Bye-ren-ay-Deltii
>Cafadans         Travellers' Digest 3    Corridor 3135 Cafad/Sashrakusha
>Darrians         Alien Module 8          Spin. Marches 0627 Darrian/Darrian
>*Darmine          Darmine cultual region  Zarushagar 1323 Ishag/Liasdi

What's unofficial about the Darmine?

> ?Dynchia          Journal 24              Leonidae 0633 Melantris/Yuddunn

According the the issue of JTAS where the original writeup of the Dynchia
were published, the author had placed them somewhere where they conflicted
with some previously published material (I never checked out just what)
and they were therefor not official. I don't know if that changed later.

Fiorin		  AHL			  ?

>Floriani         Travellers' Digest 23   Trojan Reach 0213 Floria/Yggdrasil
>Geonee           Travellers' Digest 11   Massilia 1430 Shiwonee/Shiwonee

And in AHL.

>Halkans          Travellers' Dig. 20 p8  Trojan Reach 0510 Halka/Menorial
>Happirhva        Far Traveller 2         Reaver's Deep 1218 Rejhappur/Scotian Deep

Ilurian		  AHL			  ?

>Irhadre          Grand Census?           Lishun 0935 Chanadre/Welling
>Issugur          Alien Realms p3         Iakr Parthinia
>*Kaggushus        Proposed by Clay Bush
>Lancia           Imperial Encyclopedia   Gushemege 2207 Irkhi/Taapv
>*Liberts          Proposed by Clay Bush   Old Expanses Nullia

>Loeskalth        Skyraiders trilogy      Gushemege M

Dosen't have to be counted against the 46 since they are supposedly extinct
(Well, not quite, but the writer of the Library Data don't know that).

Luriani		  AHL			  ?

>*Menetha          J. Kundert (Farstar)|?|
>Otrai            JTAS 13 p10
>+Ronni            Flaming Eye
>Suerrat          Alien Module 8          Ilelish 1710 Volomil/Miitan

And in AHL.

>Syleans          Travellers' Digest 9    Core Capital

And in AHL.

>Tapazmal         Travellers' Dig. 20 p27 Reft 3134Dlaejen/Moibin
>?Tekundu          Aliens Archive          Yulanii
>Thaggeshi        Vilani & Vargr p18      Vland 2530 Thaggesh/Anakod
>Vlazhdumecta     Sky Raiders trilogy
>*Yileans          Mike Mikesh             Gashikan 2732 Gashikan/Gashilean
>*Ziadd            Duncan Law-Green        Dagudashaag 0721Zeda/Zeda
>Urunishani

About _Azhanti High Lightning_. There were nine Lightning Class cruisers
named _"Something" High Lightning_. Since four of them were indisputably
human races of the Imperium, it seems to permissible assumption that the
other five were too. Not unassailable, but quite plausible, IMO.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:17:06 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trading

Dear Sir:

What CT material do you have to trade?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:25:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Belters

> Well, we have all these system defense boats that are dedicated to ensuring
>piracy does not happen...   8-D

  Well, I'm still on record as suspecting that in-system piracy is provably
practical...    :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:25:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Religions, Calvinball

>>Removing all religious symbols and activities from school property? no.
>
>Great! So you wouldn't mind it when your local school allowed the following
>religions to demostrate their beliefs to your children:  Santeria, Voodun,
>Santanism, Dionysian Fertillity Rites, Paganism, Druidism, and a group of
  ^^^^^

  Would this be evidence of Ithklur attempting a manipulation of
their own, perhaps?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:32:20 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (2/15/98) (fwd)

>    Web Site location: http://www.titan-games.com/
...
>    Journal of the Traveller' Aid Society: 
>        Best of the Journal, Volume #2 (328) [$13, VF]
>        Best of the Journal, Volume #3 (335) [$10, F]
>        Best of the Journal, Volume #4 (342) [$10, F]
...
>GDW:
>    (Space:1889 Miniatures)
>        Victorian Adventurers (1821) [$12, N]
>    (Traveller)
>        The Traveller Book (hardbound) (201) [$22, F]
>        Alien Module 1 - Aslan (254) [$20, G]
>        Alien Module 3 - Vargr (257) [$25, G]
>        Alien Module 7 - Hivers (263) [$25, G]
>        Book 4 - Mercenary (304) [$10, Fa]
>        Adv. 7 - Broadsword (326) [$14, G]
>    (Traveller: 2300)
>        Traveller: 2300 Boxed Set (1000) [$14.5, Box VF-Contents VF]
>        Kafer Sourcebook (1014) [$11, M]
>    (Twilight:2000)
>        Infantry Weapons of the World (2002) [$9.5, NM]
...
>    (Traveller)
>        (Sector)
>            Glimmerdrift Reaches (490) [$8, F]

  Hope this helps someone.
        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:33:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS traveller playtesting

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

>Whatever the fate of IG may be (does anyone know if Greg Porter's post
>on r.g.frp.misc was the real Greg Porter?)

   Yep, that's him all right, I checked.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:23:05 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

On Sun, 15 Feb 98 19:16:05 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 02/15/98 at 08:17 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:
> 
> >> The maths worked out the same for me :) If you put the numbers into TNE you
> >> get a Dam of 1D6-1, the same as a .22 Long Rifle. Now the .22LR has been
> >> used to kill an elephant with one shot, but I don't think you could do that
> >> with one rock of that size. 
> >> 
> >> I suspect that rocks are dangerous for their energy because of their
> >> relatively high momentum. This same high momentum/low energy compared to a
> >> .22LR is why I don't think a rock would work on an elephant (poor
> >> penetration).
> 
> >Errr, would you care to expand on the lethality of a .22LR vs. an
> >elephant? I'm sorry but the ballistics behind the .22LR make it difficult
> >enough to even penetrate the elephant's thick skin, let alone a one shot
> >kill (hell, a .357 magnum will "bounce" off an elephant's skull).
> 
> Humm, a .22LR through the eye and directly into the brain, would do it. 
> It'd be one lucky shot, though.  I've got my doubts about a rock and a
> grizzly, I *sure* wouldn't want to put it to a test.

I doubt it, Eris.  I'm pretty sure that there is enough bone behind the eye
socket to stop or deflect a .22LR.  Thanks for playing, though ;)

As for the rock and the grizzly, nobody mentioned how big that rock was (or
if it was one of those damn .1c rocks).  Now if we're talking about taking
out a Vancouver Grizzlies basketball player, your chances have increased
dramatically :P



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:27:30 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ine Givar (long)

>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Ine Givar (long)
>
>It's late now. I'll try to finish this tommorrow.
>
>  Andrew etc.

Oh, I forgot to praise the excellent writeup of Ine Givar. I printed it,
saved it as saveworthy Traveller e-mail and put it inside my LibData
database. Please give us the second part, grovel grovel.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:13:06 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: MJD and Missions of State

*An* MJD wrote:

>The OTHER MJD is Marc J Davison.

With a name like Marc he's just *trying* to confuse us all!


>That's life, I suppose.

Sure is.


>(Or am *I* the other one?)

That too.


>PS: Anyone seen Missions of State yet? What's it like? (Which is the best
>scenario - reviews please!)

Yep, been reading it nightly and enjoying it immensely except for the
dreadful typos in it - the sort where the word is spelled correctly but is
an entirely different one to that which was meant.  Suggests use of a spell
checker and no human brain to follow and check it properly.  (First rule of
spell checking - never trust the machine alone.)

Funnily enough, your scenario is the next one to read!  Hoping to get to it
tonight.


tc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:15:49 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Items Wanted!

In a message dated 2/13/98 13:58:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< here is a hobby store here, (Las Vegas) that used to be a distributor. They
 have Megagtraveller stuff still in shrinkwrap including First Census (and
 probably the Challenge mags too).  >>


Seth,

     Where is this treasure trove located??????

DustyLV769

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:09:10 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: GG Refueling (was Belters and mining)

>IMTU, a commercial ship jumping into a system comes in about midway between
>the habital zone and the most likely GG orbits.  If the system has a
>mainworld worth visiting the ship heads in-system, if it doesn't the ship
>heads out-system.  M class stars, in particular, don't have much in the way
>of habital mainworlds, but they might have thriving bases around a GG
>providing fuel, resupply, recreation and repair.
>
>
>Eris

My PCs do it all the time, mostly to avoid customs inspections and red tape.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:15:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Nukes and nuking

>     Ob trav.  What's to prevent some of the worlds in the 3I, notably
>balkanized worlds, from going crazy and nuking each other silly?  These would
>be interdicted, no?  But would any efforts be made to decapitate or scalp the
>nuclear capabilities? Wouldn't this require near permanent stationing of
>"weapons inspectors?"
>
>Gary

Ling Standard Products gave Lanax on Aramanxs/Aramis fission powered
submarines in their WWII style squabble (Challenge Wet Navy merc
adventure). In 1119 IMTU they've going full tilt on bombmaking in a small
research station in the icy cold southern Lanax (remarkably similar to the
heavy water plant in Norway during WWII).

They'll nuke their heads off as the Imperium is busy fighting the Vargr to
bother with pesky nuke wars. My team of PCs are one jump from arriving
there offering "their" nukes to the highest bidder (they've joined the
looting of Depot earlier and carted away with a few nuclear warheads).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:07:38 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Passenger Liners

>IMTU, (told everybody I was going to steal it ;-) you couldn't build
>jump ships that large...even warships...but if you *could* then you
>should benefit from a number of economies of scale.

In typical heretical style Eris not only flaunts the holy 100dTon minimum
jumpcapable ship rule, he IHTU (In His Traveller Universe) has imposed an
UPPER limit. The stake I say!

;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:01:15 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

>What does it matter if its tens of thousands of shots, if they are
>undetectable? :-) But I understand your point.
>
>And a beam lobe is ... ?

Look at a flashlight pointed at you - bright yes, look at it pointing
sligthly to your right - not as bright etc. Basically even a missed shot
will illuminate the target somewhat and that pulse will be detectable with
a telescope.

>Is it "lost" light, stuff scattered from the laser at it's source because
>the laser beam is not perfectly focused?

You could say that as well.

>
>>The gravfocus handwave uses a gravsoliton wave travelling with the pulse
>>and focussing all the time, otherwise the field strengths for the focussing
>>would be strong enough to be a weapon in itself. A soliton meeting a beam
>>wouldn't affect it at all.
>
>
>And a soliton is ... ?
>Explain it to me like I'm stupid ('cuz I am). "-on" is particle, right?
>What is solit? Or am I way off-base?
>
Sorry, there has been a debate on the lsit as to what this gravfocus
handwave really is. If it was a gravitational field powerful enough to bend
the light back into focus on the target then, it was argued, the gravfocus
device would be a much more powerful weapon than the laser itself. Sort of
like a beam that could crush ships remotely and as that would lead to
problems another solution was put forth: A wave that travelled with the
laserpulse and kept it in focus but with much less energy. People more well
read in wave mechanics than I put forth that a "soliton" had just the right
parameters to do the job. A side note about this soliton is that a missed
shot could conceivably also be detected from its gravpulse.

>I understand the fact that you need the beam to handwave grav focussing,
>because otherwise you would need just about a singularity at the source to
>focus the light. What I was wondering, though, was that if you *can*
>project a gravity wave, say of only 1G force (or less even), wouldn't that
>make a good thing for nudging a laser det missile's focusing array (and
>keeping it from hitting?) Isn't that the idea behind a repulsor?
>
With good enough range a repulsor or strong gravfocius device could shurely
mess with sensor arrays etc but I'm not shure if the feedback mechanisms in
them wouldn't revert it as soon as the pulse has passed. For repulsers I'm
not shure as I have no idea about how these are supposed to work. In the
Digest detailing the emperors palace it was said that the palace was held
up by repulsors on the ground and that this was supposed to be more safe
than using gravplates on the palace. This to me sounds like strong forces
at work but...

>Explain it to me like I'm stupid ('cuz I am).

Me too. I'll offer proof to the fact that I am at least as stupid as the
other person by this little anecdote:

Once upon a time I was awoken by my phone ringing by my bed. I was really
tired/hung over and it was early morning but I picked it up and put it to
my ear. Right then I realised that I had compleately forgotten what one was
supposed to say when answering the phone. I just held it there for perhaps
a minute without coming up with a single halfwit utterance. The other end
finally hang up and I still don't know who called (probably somebody who
wanted to give me gazillions for being so smart).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:24:37 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

In a message dated 2/13/98 14:16:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rboleyn@clear.net.nz writes:

<< IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the country
 was paralysed by the refugees,  >>

As I recall my history (FWIW), the military was still not willing to surrender
after the first bomb, although the civilian membership of the Cabinet had long
since been pressing for terms (the holdup there was the Allied "Unconditional
Surrender" demands.) After the second bomb was dropped, the Emperor himself
intervened and ordered the military to surrender according to the terms of the
Potsdam Proclamation.  He was the only person in Japan w/ the juice to order
it and make it stick...and still there were factions of the military who were
at least thinking about a coup "to save the Emperor" of course.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:29:12 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

In a message dated 2/13/98 14:32:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, j-man@iname.com
writes:

<< Sigh.  Religion is some very screwed up stuff no matter how you look at
 it.   >>

Having watched the debate on religion burn it's way across the list, and
having studied a lot of history, I am reminded of a quote I have heard from a
priest somewhere..."I know God loves us all, but sometimes we must be a
terrible disappointment to Him."

Ed Jenkins

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:30:46 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

In a message dated 98-02-16 12:27:53 EST, you write:

<< << IIRC the Japanese were going to surrender after the first, but the
country
  was paralysed by the refugees,  >>
 
 As I recall my history (FWIW), the military was still not willing to
surrender
 after the first bomb, although the civilian membership of the Cabinet had
long
 since been pressing for terms (the holdup there was the Allied "Unconditional
 Surrender" demands.) After the second bomb was dropped, the Emperor himself
 intervened and ordered the military to surrender according to the terms of
the
 Potsdam Proclamation.  He was the only person in Japan w/ the juice to order
 it and make it stick...and still there were factions of the military who were
 at least thinking about a coup "to save the Emperor" of course.
 
 Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)    >>

how right you are. not many people new taht little fact.  

it is also a little known fact Japan had been trying to surrender with only
one condition.  that ensuring the safty of the office of the Emperor.  if the
US had aggreed to that teh warf whould have ended much, much sooner with out
so many needless deaths.

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:09:37 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: new question of the week

In a message dated 2/13/98 18:18:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, Kagehira@aol.com
writes:

<< The material will be in ASCII text (except the software or spreadsheets,
most
 of which are in C or Basic and Excel format). The CD-ROM will be in ISO-9660
 format so it should hopefully be able read by all machines. >>

A question from a semi-illeterate user...will this be operable w/ Winblows 95?
If the answer is yes, definatly mark me down for one!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: War Crimes

In-Reply-To: <34E7424E.1085@ebicom.net>

> I am worried about those 3000 gallons of liquid anthrax though.

IKWYM...but what can you do about it? It's not going to go away on it's 
own, he won't let us in peacefully to remove it, bomb the factories and 
you release it, invade and he might start throwing it around 
(especially at Israel, who'll turn Baghdad into a large glowing crater, 
at which point things get *really* interesting...), leave it there and 
you've got a sword of Damocles hanging over everyone.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:13 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

In-Reply-To: <VA.00000611.008da381@taz>

Simon,

> wait in eager anticipation of the traveller CD.  Just think, I can pull 
> all of those Library Data entries from all the adventures, Journals, 
> web sites, etc and compile the version for My Traveller Universe.  I 
> can hardly wait.

There is a (complete?) Library Database on the web (URL, anyone?)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Religion in America

In-Reply-To: <a2e0b4ca.34e6c3d1@aol.com>

> These are percentages of  Americans that believe various things:
>  
> 86% believe in a God or a Supreme Being (7% do not, 6% don't know/refuse)

That's quite high. I'm surprised.

> 86% believe in heaven
> 77% believe in hell

Huh? Can you have one without the other?

> 51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms
> 60% believe that the world was created in 7 days

That's just depressing.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In-Reply-To: <34E73784.89C@edgenet.net>

Daniel,

> The French, sadly, will never be fully integrated with anybody except
> themselves.

Well, who wants to integrate with the French anyway?

(joke BTW!)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.16.19980214191034.403f36a4@mail.hooked.net>

Douglas,

> Actually, the album "Yellow Submarine" features music from the film, which
> works quite well as Traveller backround music.

"We all live in a yellow SDB..."
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:12 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

In-Reply-To: <980214.230530.0P4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Leonard,

> > What do you do if it's the CMO that's gone loopy/rogue/etc (but not
> > enough to be noticed). He can declare the captain unfit, and nobody
> > can argue (especially if it's a conspiracy with the XO). I wanted a
> > safety net, hence the 2/3 majority.
>  
> For various *good* reasons, the only time that you take a *vote* in the
> military is during a courts martial. Commanders have been relieved of
> command when headquarters found out that they had let their menm vote
> on something rather than deciding for them. 
>  
> Among other things, voting takes *time*. 

Hmm. Okay, I see your point.

> >> Personnel are not authorized to obey illegal orders.  Any Officer or
> >> crewman who performs illegal acts will be relieved of command (or duty) by
> >> the ranking Officer present and held to be tried for their crimes.
> >
> > But if it's the CO who's committing them...?
>  
> Then you get the orders in writing and put your objections in writing.
> That will cover you when the military court starts looking for blood.
>  
> >> Personnel may refuse to perform orders they judge to be illegal, however
> >> their refusal may lead to immediate arrest, detention and subsequent court
> >> martial on grounds of treason, mutiny, or insorbordination.
> >
> > So what *legally* can the command crew (say) do if the CO starts giving 
> > illegal orders?
>  
> Get the orders in writing and log their objections.

So you think "yes, I knew we were committing war crimes, but I was only 
following orders" is an acceptable defence? Sorry, but I don't.

The captain gives the order to, say, shoot a civilian ship. Which is unarmed, 
and committing no crime. And is full of orphans, nuns, and cute little kittens. 
You're the XO, and all you're going to do is say, "I don't think that's a very 
good idea, sir"? You could argue a bit more, but all that'll do is get you 
thrown in the brig, because the regulations don't allow you to do anything 
more.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:26:49 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What accents do you use...

At 05:00 PM 2/10/98 +0100, you wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> To do Vargr, I keep my tongue pressed against my lower front teeth.  This
>> slurs some vowels nicely, and gives a nice feel to the speech.  Also, I
>> make sure that right after heavy exertion, my Vargr on speak in short, one
>> of two word burst to cover the reflexive panting.
>> 
>> "Human!  How much"<pause>"For the red white and orange 'Dreadnaughts'
>> jacket?"<pause>"Ring it up!" *manical laughter*
>
>I think I'll try this one with my next Vargr. Do you also make the 'r's to
>hard 'ch's or roll them? ("I am frrom Gvurrdon sectorr.")

More of a deep chest purr for that.


>> The last real development I've done is the Zaibonese, who are abrut, rude,
>> and to the point.  They also drop any form of speech that is ineffcient.
>> Any overly verbose individual will get a "Wasting Oxy" and be ignored.
>> 
>> "You. Needs buy, Howmuch?"
>
>That reminds me of an own rule in our fantasy campaigns: if a player
>character is foreign, the linguistics skill shows the maximum of syllables
>the words used may have ...

Hmmm... I might have to use that...


One other thing we do, is we use the old chart from JTAS showing lingustic
drift based on Starport and TL, makes for some interesting "Aussie meets
Maine Lobsterman" encounters...
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #177
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 16 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 178



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Warfare
Re: War Crimes
Re: USA/USAAF/USAF
Re: War Crimes
Re: War Crimes
Re: War Crimes
Flaunt the 100dt minimum
Linguistically challenged
Alive and Kicking 
Dhe: The Odds
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152
Re: new question of the week
RE: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.
FS Sector Revisions now online
Re: anthrax destruction
Re: Traveller Items Wanted!
Re: Religion in America
Re: Trash Can Punch 
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: My last comment on warfare
Re: War Crimes
Re: Total War...
Re: War Crimes
Re: Human Race Homeworlds
Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)
Re: Minor race homeworlds
Rob Prior Where Are You?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:30:47 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In a message dated 2/13/98 20:08:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kenji@accessone.com writes:

<< Finally, a destroyer could launch bacterial
 aerosols into the atmosphere, against which non-Solomani populations would
 have no resistance and succumb to in short order. >>

All kidding aside, this is indeed one often overlooked possibility.  Has this
ever been considered?  Or is it even technologically feasable?

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:47:55 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Warfare

In a message dated 2/14/98 3:28:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:

<< There is no difference between firebombing Tokyo (or Dresden) and dropping
 a nuclear device on Nagasaki. There is no difference between using phosgene
 in the trenches and crushing men under the trreads of tanks or
 machine-gunning survivors in the water after sinking a troopship. There is
 no difference between torpeding an unarmed freighter without warning and
 nursing an injured man back to health before shooting him as a spy.
 
 None of these things are 'morally right' - ever.
 
 But we do them because they are sometimes necessary in our way of life.
  >>


And you might remember:   You have to be ALIVE to wrestle with your
conscience.

     I was faced with a situation once at work where a person started fighting
w/ my security guard.  I had an opportunity to inflict a fight-ending, but
potientially fatal blow to the agressor.  I chose not to, because I felt the
situation, while serious, did not warrant it.  I was wrong.  The man ran over
my security guard with his car and seriuosly injured him.  Is this my fault?
Maybe yes, maybe no.  But I FEEL responsible.  I will never second-guess
myself again.

I hope there really is some connection to what is being discussed here...it
seemed very clear at the beginning...

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:49:04 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <34E7424E.1085@ebicom.net>
> 
> > I am worried about those 3000 gallons of liquid anthrax though.
> 
> IKWYM...but what can you do about it? It's not going to go away on it's
> own, he won't let us in peacefully to remove it, bomb the factories and
> you release it, invade and he might start throwing it around
> (especially at Israel, who'll turn Baghdad into a large glowing crater,
> at which point things get *really* interesting...), leave it there and
> you've got a sword of Damocles hanging over everyone.


Well, there is an alternative.  If you can confine the crap and burn it
at very high temps you could destroy it.  Hit the factory with a
penetrator/incendiary and incinerate the stuff along with the indises of
the factory.  Unfortunately, I doubt that theis is a "refined"
technique.  Meaning I bet no one has ever done it before, even
experimentally.

Shades of "The Rock."

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:04:41 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: USA/USAAF/USAF

In a message dated 2/14/98 11:26:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, GDWGAMES@aol.com
writes:

<< I'm not sure if it is in the formal legal language, but since 1948 when the
 USAAF became the USAF, there has been a kind of "gentleman's agreement": US
 Army gets to use helicopters, USAF flies everything that's fixed wing.  >>

It actually is...I believe the Defense Act of 1947 spells it out in that exact
manner.  If I am right this is also the act that changed the name from US Army
Air Corps to US Air Force (and from War Department to Department of Defense,
one of the first applications of "political correctness")

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:10:11 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: War Crimes

Nuke every suspected site. And I am serious here.  Either that or crack
the facilities open with a bunker buster then hit them with fuel/air
explosives.

Still, it does not solve the problem.  Cant get it all and cant stop
others from producing it.  

There is no solution as long as people are willing to kill to achieve
their ends.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:12:09 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: War Crimes

>Well, there is an alternative.  If you can confine the crap and burn it
>at very high temps you could destroy it.  Hit the factory with a
>penetrator/incendiary and incinerate the stuff along with the indises of
>the factory.  Unfortunately, I doubt that theis is a "refined"
>technique.  Meaning I bet no one has ever done it before, even
>experimentally.

The United States is developing a specialized bomb to do just that.  Extremely
good at penetrating bunkers, and it burns _extremely_ hot.  IIRC, they can't
get it quite hot enough to ensure the complete destruction of all biological
agents.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:28:34 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

At 01:49 pm 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> > I am worried about those 3000 gallons of liquid anthrax though.
>> 
>> IKWYM...but what can you do about it? It's not going to go away on it's
>> own, he won't let us in peacefully to remove it, bomb the factories and
>> you release it, invade and he might start throwing it around
>> (especially at Israel, who'll turn Baghdad into a large glowing crater,
>> at which point things get *really* interesting...), leave it there and
>> you've got a sword of Damocles hanging over everyone.
>
>
>Well, there is an alternative.  If you can confine the crap and burn it
>at very high temps you could destroy it.  Hit the factory with a
>penetrator/incendiary and incinerate the stuff along with the indises of
>the factory.  Unfortunately, I doubt that theis is a "refined"
>technique.  Meaning I bet no one has ever done it before, even
>experimentally.

	"Nuclear Fire--God's Cleanser!"

(just kidding ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 1998 14:09 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Flaunt the 100dt minimum

I have a "40t" TL17 jumpship.  It has an engine capable of
taking it jump-3 (jump-2 or jump-1 if it's loaded down
with too many external fuel tanks).  I keep it in my garage.
I don't take it far... the crew get a little touchy if 
they're in such close quarters for more than a week...

Fuel	Total Displacement	Jump
5t	40t			1
10t	45t			2
15t	50t			3
20t	55t			2
25t	60t			2
30t	65t			2
35t	70t			1
40t	75t			1
45t	80t			1

etc

Rob

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 1998 14:15 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Linguistically challenged

When your PCs are trying to speak with another race or
culture, and there are no memclips to be found, you
can have them write down what they want to say, and then...

Based on their linguistics skill or knowledge of the
target language, roll them dice... to see how many
(or which) words are lost in the translation.  Then
look at the result and see if it's intelligible.

Better yet, take one player aside and make him try to
translate and compose a response, which you then edit
for fluency, etc...

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:18:55 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Alive and Kicking 

Imperium Games are still alive and kicking - they are churning stuff out at
quite an impressive rate - only last week we got the adventure book
Missions of State.

A quote from Mike Berry of Leisure Games - 16/2/98


Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:26:46 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Dhe: The Odds

After scratching my head with a pencil for several hours, I
finally figured out what the real odds on Dhe are.

To recap, for those who don't preserve TMLs in an
easily-accessible format, Anders Backman described this game as a
sort of roulette - the gambler bets on a single number, 1 to 6,
and two standard, fair, six-sided dice are rolled.  If the throw
reveals exactly one occurrence of the wagered number, the wager
is lost; if exactly two occurrences of the wagered number are
revealed, the player wins a 9-to-1 payoff, and if none are
revealed, the standard game has all bets ride for another throw
("no-result").

In determining the odds, it turns out that the "no-result" throws
are null in the calculations.  The important question is the
number of "terminal states", i.e., throws which result in either
a win or a loss.  In Dhe, there are eleven terminal states (to
verify, "throw" all the combinations of one red die and one green
die, and count the number of combinations where any single given
number appears.  There will be five where each die is the only
one showing the selected number (for a total of ten), plus one
combination where both will show it (total eleven)).  Of these
terminal states, only one is a win for the gambler.  "Fair" odds
are therefore eleven-and-decimal-to-one; typically, the "house"
would round this to 11-to-1, and pay for the bright lights and
scantily-clad waitresses (or local cultural equivalent) with the
remaining difference.  Of course, one percent isn't really a lot,
so the house will generally pay somewhat lower.  At ten-to-one,
the house advantage is ten percent; at the stated nine-to-one,
the house keeps nineteen percent.

For comparison, the house advantage in roulette is roughly five
percent on the American wheel (with two zeros), and
two-and-one-half percent on European wheels (with only one zero).
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:53:05 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #152

In a message dated 2/14/98 5:38:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Sorry. Those cities *were* legitimate targets. The *only* reason that
 they hadn't *already* been bombed flat was that they and a few others
 had been set aside so that if the atomic bombs worked (something that
 the military commanders weren't willing to believe until after the
 Alamagordo test) they'd be able to asses the effects without having
 arguments about what had been damaged by earlier raids.
 
 Those cities had both port facilities and factories making war
 materials. That qualified them as legitimate targets.
  >>
 An unfortunate side-effect of this was that the civilian population was much
larger than when the actual decision was made, due to the refugees who fled
there seeking a safe place.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:13:46 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: new question of the week

>        It should start being available at the end of this month or by mid-March.
> 
>         The material will be in ASCII text (except the software or spreadsheets, most
> of which are in C or Basic and Excel format). The CD-ROM will be in ISO-9660
> format so it should hopefully be able read by all machines.
> 
>         I also expect if things work will that there will be yearly updates with
> even more interesting material.
> 
> Bryan
> 


That is totally awesome man!  I thought we'd have to wait eons (like we
are doing for the equivelant Gamma World CDROM).

I can hardly wait to buy it!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:15:22 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Now, Harold, T4 is a globally published item.

On Monday, 16 February 1998 11:29, DustyLV769@aol.com
[SMTP:DustyLV769@aol.com] wrote:
> In a message dated 2/13/98 14:32:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, j-
> man@iname.com
> writes:
> 
> << Sigh.  Religion is some very screwed up stuff no matter how you
look
> at
>  it.   >>
> 
> Having watched the debate on religion burn it's way across the list,
and
> having studied a lot of history, I am reminded of a quote I have heard
> from a
> priest somewhere..."I know God loves us all, but sometimes we must be
a
> terrible disappointment to Him."

David Weber's book _Flag in Exile_, one of his Honor Harrington series.
A great series and a great quote.

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
 "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com
- --Not-the-IG Pages - http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/default.html--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:41:11 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: FS Sector Revisions now online

Hi Guys, 
some time ago i sent some corrections of the "corrected" FS Data that
Marc sent around a year ago, and that rests on Joe Hecks (i think it was
his) Web Pages.
Now I have revised them again, and made them available on my web page:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061
Once there, go to the Domain of Deneb, my Traveller main page.
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:22:58 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: anthrax destruction

Hello Folks,
  In the same vein as those who suggested Nuclear Fire as the solution...

  Why not just use a normal conventional device to destroy the facilities?
If they want to play with Anthrax, let them.  It will be their own civlians
who suffer the "contamination".  If the general policy from the UN is to do
that to all sites, then there goes the "inducement" to manufacture it in
the future.

  The real kicker in the pants though...

1) the people who likely would tell their own government "no!  Don't
produce biologicals" are the same ones who would be better off shooting
themselves so that their government doesn't torture them or their families
for having protested.

2) this only works for the biologicals that don't threaten the full
Biosphere...

  But aside from that - US american warmongerers who hate all of the earth,
and would rather die that be rational - would LOVE to see this kind of
suffering visited upon the earth...

(and if you believed that last paragraph, We have a special sale for those
of you who would like to buy swampland in death valley <wink>)...

     Hal

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:51:08 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Items Wanted!

On Cheyenne, at the Cheyenne Square Shopping Center. Go up I-95 and make a
right on to Cheyenne. Make a left into the shopping center past the first
intersection. The phone number is 649-3311, and the store name is Imagination
unlimited. It's in the phone book.

Seth

BTW, when is the campaign going to start?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:59:30 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion in America

That evolution fact makes me remember a debate I had with an Orthodox Jew. I
pointed out that science and religion can co-exist. I theorised that time (and
watches) are a man made invention, and that G-D can go by anytime scale that
the almight would like. Therefore when He created the heaven and the earth,
how do we know it took six 24 hour days. I proposed that each "day" was a
metaphor for a much longer period of geologic time. At this point he got very
upset with me (Orthodox Jews consider the Torah (old Testamate) literal
dictation from G-D to Moses, and not open to interpretation), but at least he
gave me the courtesy of hearing out my viewpoint, and just disliked it, and
not me personally. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:33:53 -0500
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Trash Can Punch 

>So, 55 gal. of "stuff", roughly 9% of it C2H5OH.  I get 18 proof
>from that; IIRC, wine is typically 12% or 24 proof.  This isn't
>very potent; "damp" sites in my medievalist organization wouldn't
>have any problem with something like this. (A "damp" site allows
>beer, wine, and mead, but nothing stronger).
>
>I wouldn't have more than one of these if I were driving within
>                                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>about 24hrs (personal policy), but otherwise, I'd have no problem
>with it - since I always do alcohol in moderation anyway
>(personal policy).
>

Yeah, I think one 55-gallon drum of booze in a 24-hour period is 
enough for anyone :)


**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:41:22 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

Shadow wrote:


>That last should be Ek = .5*m*v*v.

Thanks.  That's what I get for working without my cookbook.

>Assuming your mass figure is correct I get about 27 EJ (27e15 Joules).
>I think you forgot to convert tonnes to kg, and km/sec to m/sec.
>
>> I bet Deadeye could tell us the energy equivalent for a ton of TNT if you
>> don't know (I don't).
>
>4.2e9 Joules = 1 ton of TNT
>
>So that asteroid is roughly equivalent to a 6 megaton bomb.

Oh my!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:07:17 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

>Hey all,
>    I just caught a news report on the Discovery Channel last night that
>Astronomers now believe our galaxy is in the midst of a collision with
another
>galaxy.  Can anyone confirm this???
>
>Stephen

Hey Stephen,

Saw a report on the same thing on CNN channel on my desktop.  According to
the report, it's a small globular galaxy believed to have a large amount of
dark matter.

Do you want I should clip it and send it to you?

Richard
cybernot@gte.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:09:46 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: My last comment on warfare

>I am a tool.  Please don't make me go off:)

You notice I didn't attribute this quote.  There are two reasons, 1) because
if it matters to you, then you already know who wrote it and 2) because most
of the men and women in uniform the world over could have written it.
Almost everyone I've known in service has had this attitude.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:10:50 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: War Crimes

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:49:04 -0500, you wrote:


>Well, there is an alternative.  If you can confine the crap and burn it
>at very high temps you could destroy it.  Hit the factory with a
>penetrator/incendiary and incinerate the stuff along with the indises of
>the factory.  Unfortunately, I doubt that theis is a "refined"
>technique.  Meaning I bet no one has ever done it before, even
>experimentally.

The military has designed bunker busting weapons that do just what you
described, to burn up chemical and biological agents before they
spread. 

Unfortunately, it is impossible to locate bioweapon facilities from
the air. They don't take a lot of space and they don't use a lot of
energy. I believe a USAF general described the expertise needed to
brew biological agents as just above what was needed to make beer in a
micro brewery.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:02:44 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Total War...

Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:59:09 -0700 (MST), Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>

>If bombing population centers is wrong by any agreed upon rules of
>war (in traveller) then is it equally abhorent to put *any* military
>facility or any military related industry in a civilian area? I
>would say yes. You can't have it both ways.

This is  similar to the issue of a geurilla groups deliberately
blurring the distinction between civilians and combatants.  Under
international law, if you put military targets among civilians
you are responsible for the casualties.  However, then the
pictures get splashed over TV screens the side the usually
gets blames is the side the fired the munitions (witness
Isreal in Beruit).  What this means is that outrage over
civilian casualties ends up rewarding people who sought
to bring them about.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:44:47 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

At 10:10 pm 2/16/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, it is impossible to locate bioweapon facilities from
>the air. They don't take a lot of space and they don't use a lot of
>energy. I believe a USAF general described the expertise needed to
>brew biological agents as just above what was needed to make beer in a
>micro brewery.

	He was exagerating ... any homebrewer or cook with the right information
can create some pretty nasty stuff. It's getting it in larger and more
uniform quantities that requires more expertise/facilities. But then how
much does SH really need?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:08:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Human Race Homeworlds

Quoth Andrew Boulton:
>  Suerrat          Alien Module 8          Ilelish 1710 Volomil/Miitan

This was a change in MegaTraveller, if I recall correctly, from Classic
Traveller's placement of the Suerrat at straightforward Ilelish/Ilelish.
ISTR that Volomil's UPP makes it an unlikely homeworld.  Ilelish proper
seems a far better choice, since it provides obvious explanations for the
Ilelish Pacification Campaigns, Ilelish Revolt, and the continuing
presence of an Ilelish cultural region: they all stem from the presence of
a well-entrenched minor race, the Suerrat.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:45:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Zhos and the 3I (was: Romans and the Imperium)

Quoth Rupert Boleyn:
> Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett wrote:
> >Quoth TravelrTNE@aol.com:
> >> It would seem to me that the best way for the zhos to insure the Imperium
> >> won't expand their way (or to keep them contained) would be to go all
> >> the way to the Claw.
> >
> >But then they would have had to absorb all those pesky, unethical, immoral
> >ex-Imperials on the captured planets, causing centuries of social disruption.
> >Easier by far just to keep the Imperium off-balance, nervous, and xenophobic,
> >so their grotesque moral ideas don't pollute the poor weak-minded proles.
>
> They had to do that anyway, the Impies were out past the SM at one stage
> (before they got their asses kicked).

Right, but ISTR that CT Adventure 6 ("Expedition to Zhodane") clearly
states that even that assimilation was a challenge for the Zhodani.  The
cost and effort of trying to seize another two or three sectors, hold
them, and absorb them fully into the Zhodani social fabric would have been
abhorrent.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:03:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

Quoth Hans Rancke-Madsen:
> About _Azhanti High Lightning_. There were nine Lightning Class cruisers
> named _"Something" High Lightning_. Since four of them were indisputably
> human races of the Imperium, it seems to permissible assumption that the
> other five were too. Not unassailable, but quite plausible, IMO.

The races used for naming AHL cruisers are:

Azhanti, Syleans, Vilani, Fiorin, Geonee, Acheron, Suerrat, Ilurians, and
Luriani. 

Carlos Alos-Ferrer has done some superb work on the short-and-technical
Geonee, which hopefully will be web-accessible again soon.  John Snead and
I have done some independent work on the Suerrat: I'm spending part of
today readying some of my own write-up of these arborean-chimplike
homonids for web publication.  And I applaud the splendid write-up, just
appeared on TML, for the aquatic Luriani.  Did I see on the list which I
snipped mention of someone's take on the Azhanti?

I have some notes I need to spruce up on the Acheron as a troglodytic
species (inspired in part by my never-finished entry to the "Feast of the
Voyagers" web adventure contest -- anyone remember that?).

Fiorin and Ilurians, anyone?  (What interesting eco-niches remain to be
filled?  A furred, cold-adapted species?  Free-fall adaptees a la Niven's
*The Smoke Ring*?  Radical takes on sexual dimorphism?)

I'm a tad disappointed by M:0's decision to "back-burner" the Syleans as a
miniscule and primitive culture now all-but-assimilated by Vilani and
Solomani immigrants: it seems to me a lazy decision (though well in
keeping with IG's rush-it-out-the-doors philosophy) that missed some
exciting opportunities, and which doesn't fit well with the admittedly
limited evidence (the regard for the race shown by the AHL series, Lucan's
eventual insistence on High Sylean, etc.).  Anybody have some heretical-
canon ideas on who the Syleans are?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:46:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Rob Prior Where Are You?

Sorry for the off-topic, but I'm looking for Rob. I vaguely recall others
looking for him as well, but I guess I didn't pay enough attention to those
message ... Flames for this grudgingly accepted at goldendj@pcisys.net

>Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:30:42 -0700 (MST)
>From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON>
>To: <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: nybe.north-york.on.ca:
host not found)
>Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
>
>The original message was received at Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:21:50 -0700 (MST)
>from ginger74.pcisys.net [207.204.7.74]
>
>   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
><Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca>
>
>   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>550 <Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca>... Host unknown (Name server:
nybe.north-york.on.ca: host not found)
>Reporting-MTA: dns; kramer.pcisys.net
>Received-From-MTA: DNS; ginger74.pcisys.net
>Arrival-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:21:50 -0700 (MST)

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #178
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 17 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 179



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MJD and Missions of State
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: Minor race homeworlds
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: War Crimes
Re: Religion in America
Re: Plea for help!
Ding! We have a winner!
Box Car class Subsudized Merchant (FF&S2) (Long, sorry)
Re: [T98#166] Character Names
Re: War Crimes
Re: Minor race homeworlds
Re: new question of the week
Syleans in Milieu Zero
Re: Plea for help!
Re: Congratulations and the Next Step
Re: Rob Prior Where Are You?
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Ine Givar (full repost)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:53:22 +0000
From: Marc <marc.davison@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: MJD and Missions of State

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:

> *An* MJD wrote:
>
> >The OTHER MJD is Marc J Davison.
>
> With a name like Marc he's just *trying* to confuse us all!
>
> >That's life, I suppose.
>
> Sure is.
>
> >(Or am *I* the other one?)
>
> That too.

  <snip>

Being the other 'MJD' and being talked about, while having personal problems
with my beloved (my PC, not my girlfriend), I thought I would clarify things
for everyone.
In addition to the initials MJD , I have another one, which makes me MJAD, but
since the old arcade machines only accepted three initials, I use MJD (more
preferable than MAD).
As for Marc, its my parents, not me that may be trying to confuse.  Accept no
liability!  Would Martin like to be the ONE, I will accept the subservient
position of being the other.

On a more personal note, Martin.  You sent me your phone number, but because of
the problems with my PC (namely I have spent the past day and a half
reinstalling all my software) I have lost your number, could you resend it
please.



There are fools everywhere I look, especially when I have a shave in the
morning.

MJD. MJAD. MAD.  Who am I?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:13:08 EST
From: SWMego@aol.com
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

In a message dated 2/16/98 12:43:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
s.johnson107@genie.geis.com writes:

>     I just caught a news report on the Discovery Channel last night that
>  Astronomers now believe our galaxy is in the midst of a collision with 
> another
>  galaxy.  Can anyone confirm this???

Yes, but we wont have to worry about it until after we no longer exist.

Derek...
swmego@aol.com
www.netxp.com/fantasticplastic

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:23:14 -0600
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> wrote:

> Quoth Andrew Boulton:
> >  Suerrat          Alien Module 8          Ilelish 1710 Volomil/Miitan
>
> This was a change in MegaTraveller, if I recall correctly, from Classic
> Traveller's placement of the Suerrat at straightforward Ilelish/Ilelish.
> ISTR that Volomil's UPP makes it an unlikely homeworld.  Ilelish proper
> seems a far better choice, since it provides obvious explanations for the
> Ilelish Pacification Campaigns, Ilelish Revolt, and the continuing
> presence of an Ilelish cultural region: they all stem from the presence of
> a well-entrenched minor race, the Suerrat.

As I recall, there's an MT-era Travellers' News Service wire which also
identifies Ilelish as the Suerrat homeworld.  IMHO, this would make the
punishment that Martin doles out to Ilelish at the end of the Ilelish
Revolt even more nasty; Ilelish had its lush tropical region evacuated
and then blasted flat from orbit (as related in Rebellion Sourcebook).  
For the apparently arboreal Suerrat, this would be brutal.

I'm not sure Volomil/Miitan is even referenced anywhere.  Alien Module 8
is Darrians, I think, and might just mention the Suerrat as another minor
race with a past.  My suspicion is that this is a HIWG-ism that never saw
print; if someone knows otherwise, they should speak up!  Personally, I
also think Ilelish/Ilelish makes more sense.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:36:46 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

I found several library data / AAB sites on the www (all in the 
Traveller Webring, I believe).  One of the AAB (Vilani Depository of 
All Knowledge, or some such) pages was one long html file that I 
donwloaded and use locally.  I was planning to convert it to a Windows 
.hlp file, but Win 98 will adopt html as the help file format, so that 
seemed redundant!

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:43:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, John Lansford wrote:
 
> Unfortunately, it is impossible to locate bioweapon facilities from
> the air. They don't take a lot of space and they don't use a lot of
> energy. I believe a USAF general described the expertise needed to
> brew biological agents as just above what was needed to make beer in a
> micro brewery.
> 

Worse, the facilities to do so aren't much more complex. The problem is in
delivering the agents. scarily, that isn't much of a problem either.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:20:27 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Religion in America

Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <a2e0b4ca.34e6c3d1@aol.com>

[snip]

> > 86% believe in heaven
> > 77% believe in hell
>
> Huh? Can you have one without the other?

IIRC, Judaism has no hell.

Interestingly, (and this is based solely on my memory of one documentary or
another) the term Tartarus for Hell comes from the name of the cesspools/sewage
areas near Jerusalem that held much of that cities waste.  Apparently, it was
always burning to some extent and vary noxious.  The author of the documentary
was saying thats where the Fire and Brimstone images of Hell come from.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:46:38 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Plea for help!

Since no one else seems to have offered help in public, I'll do it in
private.  They probably did too.  :-)

I'll use the TML to show you what you need to do to find out how to switch
over.

Instead of traveller@MPGN.COM you write to majordomo@MPGN.COM.
.................^^^^^^^^...............................................^^^^
^^^^^^^^
In the body of the message write:
HELP
END
The robot will send you back a copy of the help file.  The END statement is
needed to prevent it from processing your .sig.

This should be enough to let you know how to get the information to make the
change.

Are they going to have any overlap time between the domains?  If so, just
subscribe under the new domain, when you get back your confirmation, the you
unsubscribe under the old domain.  Viola, you don't miss anything.  You
might get some dupes, but at least you don't miss anything.

Now how about a little help from you?

>ISBA (Both)
>Trav-Tech List

What do you mean "Both"?  I'm subscribed to ISBA@goldinc.com is there
another one?  If so, that may explain why I haven't received the description
for the current THUDDD.  Please send the address for the other one.  Also,
could you send me the address that for the Trav-Tech list?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael D. Peters <Letterworks@Comten.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 10:54 PM
Subject: Plea for help!


>Well I've just been informed that my ISP is changing it's domain name. So
>any flames etc. should now go to Letterworks@CITNET.COM  . My question is
>what is the easiest way to change all these @$%%% mailing lists over to the
>new address? Do I need to disconnect and reconnect under the new name or is
>there an easier way. I've been told that the old name will be good for a
few
>days so any help will be happily appriciated. If I do need to reconnect cna
>some one pass the sign-up adresses for the following back to me.
>
>ISBA (Both)
>Trav-Tech List
>TML
>The CD-project List
>
>I didn't think I'd need them so I never kept them around.
>
>Thanks
>Mike Peters
>Letterowrks@... unh oh
>Letterworks@Citnet.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:21:07 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Ding! We have a winner!

>Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
>Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!
>> Extra points for the movie: Name the actor who plays the bad guy (Hint: It
is
>> NOT Humphrey Bogart).
>> 
>> Loren Wiseman
>
>Fred MacMurray.

Yep. Even though the fact that MacMurray's character is the baddie is pointed
out by Jose Ferrer at the end of the movie, Bogart's performance as Queeg is
so riveting that most people forget anybody else is in the movie.

Great flick. Watch it if you have never been in the service, and you'll get a
pretty good idea how things work. Book is better, but great flick.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:26:25 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Box Car class Subsudized Merchant (FF&S2) (Long, sorry)

Well it a little late but..

After reviewing all ot the last THUDDD's entrants I went back to the drawing
boards and came up with this little ditty. It a nice Adventure type ship,
with a small crew, plenty of cargo and passenger space (for it's 450 sdt
size) and a little sting. It comes as drawn with a singel heavy laser
turret, but has the space (not the power!) to mount a second. The stats
speak for themselves, one thing I did note was that it was much more
economical to mount enough fuel for 2 jumps with a 1 jump drive, also a
single larger Sandcaster is more space concervitive than multiple lower
factor sandcaster, and you save on crew costs. As written this ship reflects
a crew with a Steward/Gunner and a Medic/Sandcaster operator, which makes
since from an economical point of view, this can be changed at the loss of 2
Middle passage cabins. I've included the economics data from Andrew's
spreadsheet, both non-subsidized and subsidized, suprisingly the ship is
barely profitable on it's own. I can's see any other way of shaving costs,
other than to drop the 20 sdt boat, but I LIKE having some type of lifeboat.

Look it over folks and let me know what you think.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com

Strange Cargo, Box Car class Subsidized Merchant (FF&Sv2)
Designed by Merlin Enterprises, Poitesme Yards Division

Statistics
 Tech Level: 12
 Tons: 450std ( SL Wedge Hypersonic )
 Mass (L/C): 5,377t/2,983t
 Volume: 6,300m3
 Dimensions: 57.7m x 39.6m x 16.5m
 Size: 8
 Maintenance Points: 130
 Cargo: 164std (0/3 /Hdl:3x20ton)
 Crew: 3/4
 Passengers High/Med: 10/6
 Passengers Low: 0
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)
 Cost: 95.832 MCr

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 2xComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). No bridge.
 Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
 Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0.00MW). 1xAEMS (5, 0.01MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:0.0 (0.0 at 273MW, 0.0 at 31MW), Act:0.5, Neu:0,
Grav:0

Weaponry
 1xHeavy Laser Turret (+0) 1/1-1-0-0 [1,50/38-32-16-8] (LR)
 1xEmpty Turret (6std ea.)

Performance
 1              Jump (45std/pc fuel, 88.2 tons carried)
 1.2/2.1 Maneuver (/Thruster:158MW)
 1.2/2.1 Contra-grav (107MW)
 2,125kph/3,490kph Atmosphere (/Crus:1,594kph/2,618kph)
 1 Power (/Fus:305MW,0.2)
 0 Battery
 90.7 Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:8,6MW)
 0/10/11/0/0 Accomodations
 42 Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
 1 G-Comp
 0 ESA
 1 Sandcasters ( /AV:30 /Cans:10)
 0 Damper Turrets
 0 Damper Screen
 0 Meson Screen
 0 Force Field
 0 Gravtics
 0 [20] Armor, 11 Structure

Features
 4xAirlock
 1xShip's locker (0.23std ea.)
 1xGym (2.5std ea.)
 1xFull Galley (Cap:21)

Small Craft
 1xDockRing (20std)

Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications:
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 2xMnvr. 1xEngr. 1xGunn. 1xScrn.

Non-Subsidized
Economic Potential
Expenses                                             Full Load
80% Load                50% Load
 Ship's Payment                                   $4,991,249
$4,991,249               $4,991,249
 Maintenance                                        $95,832
$95,832                    $95,832
 Fuel                                                       $1,133,170
$1,133,170               $1,133,170
 Salaries                                                $237,600
$237,600                  $237,600
 Life Support                                         $1,000,000
$850,000                  $600,000
 Berthing                                                $5,000
$5,000                      $5,000
 Subtotal                                                $7,462,851
$7,312,851              $7,062,851

Income                                                 Full Load
80% Load               50% Load
 High Passage                                    $2,500,000
$2,000,000              $1,250,000
 Middle Passage                                 $1,200,000
$1,000,000              $600,000
 Low Passage                                     $0
$0                            $0
 Freight                                                $3,400,000
$2,775,000              $1,775,000
 Speculative Cargo                            $750,000
$600,000                $400,000
 Mail                                                     $0
$0                            $0
 Subtotal                                              $7,850,000
$6,375,000              $4,025,000

Net Profit/Loss                                   $387,149
($937,851)              ($3,037,851)

Subsudized
Income                                                Full Load
80% Load               50% Load
 High Passage                                   $2,500,000
$2,000,000              $1,250,000
 Middle Passage                               $1,200,000
$1,000,000              $600,000
 Low Passage                                   $0
$0                            $0
 Freight                                               $3,275,000
$2,675,000              $1,700,000
 Speculative Cargo                           $750,000
$600,000                 $400,000
 Mail                                                    $625,000
$625,000                 $625,000
 Subtotal                                             $8,350,000
$6,900,000              $4,575,000

Net Profit/Loss                                 $1,703,398
$1,128,398              $215,898

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:56:17 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: [T98#166] Character Names

Douglas Berry wrote:

>Im my dilantin-induced fog, I read this and started singing "The Naming Of
>Cats" from "Cats."

Right, Mr. Berry.  In that case, we can assume that you're volunteering to
draft the equivalent document for the Aslan?

Show tunes, like nuclear weapons, open up a floodgate of horror and misery.
Let this be a warning to the world!


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:02:17 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: War Crimes

At 05:43 pm 2/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, John Lansford wrote:
> 
>> Unfortunately, it is impossible to locate bioweapon facilities from
>> the air. They don't take a lot of space and they don't use a lot of
>> energy. I believe a USAF general described the expertise needed to
>> brew biological agents as just above what was needed to make beer in a
>> micro brewery.
>> 
>
>Worse, the facilities to do so aren't much more complex. The problem is in
>delivering the agents. scarily, that isn't much of a problem either.

	Say, in a briefcase carried onto a crowded jumbo jet flying from New York
to London ...?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:05:23 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

Joseph Lockett wrote:
[snip]

>Carlos Alos-Ferrer has done some superb work on the short-and-technical
>Geonee, which hopefully will be web-accessible again soon.  John Snead and
>I have done some independent work on the Suerrat: I'm spending part of
>today readying some of my own write-up of these arborean-chimplike
>homonids for web publication.  And I applaud the splendid write-up, just
>appeared on TML, for the aquatic Luriani.  Did I see on the list which I
>snipped mention of someone's take on the Azhanti?

I forget, but it's all good.  I'm looking forward to seeing more on the
Geonee and Suerrat at the _very least_.

>Fiorin and Ilurians, anyone?  (What interesting eco-niches remain to be
>filled?  A furred, cold-adapted species?  Free-fall adaptees a la Niven's
>*The Smoke Ring*?  Radical takes on sexual dimorphism?)

Well...  outside the Imperium, there's always those sexually isomorphic
Hiver-wannabes...

>I'm a tad disappointed by M:0's decision to "back-burner" the Syleans as a
>miniscule and primitive culture now all-but-assimilated by Vilani and
>Solomani immigrants: it seems to me a lazy decision (though well in
>keeping with IG's rush-it-out-the-doors philosophy) that missed some
>exciting opportunities, and which doesn't fit well with the admittedly
>limited evidence (the regard for the race shown by the AHL series, Lucan's
>eventual insistence on High Sylean, etc.).  Anybody have some heretical-
>canon ideas on who the Syleans are?

... the Sayat.  _Obviously_.  After escaping from Napoleonic France, a
large task force of time-travelling Sayat agents found themselves stranded
on some rathole of a planet in the late First Empire, and set about
"improving" the local population.  They disguised themselves from the
authorities by dropping all the vowels out of their ethnonym (Sayat > Syt),
and due to orthographic sloppiness, the cross-bar on the "t" dropped after
several centuries and was read as "l".  The rest of the name "Sylea"
derives from the "eeek!" normally uttered by Vilani merchants approaching
the world as the manipulation progressed.  By the time of the Terran
conquest, everyone was convinced that the Syleans were another separate
minor race, rather than messed-up Vilani.  Even the Templars were fooled...
at first.

Ever wonder just _why_ the Syleans were "back-burnered" all of a sudden?
Eh?  Think about it!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:09:01 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: new question of the week

>That is totally awesome man!  I thought we'd have to wait eons (like we
>are doing for the equivelant Gamma World CDROM).

Gamma World CD-ROM?  Huh?  What? When? How? Where? etc...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:11:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Syleans in Milieu Zero

Just a quick note to say that I owe (and have given) an apology to Michael
Barry, author of the description of the Syleans in *Milieu Zero*, for my
earlier comments about their "back-burner" status as a missed opportunity
for development.

Michael and I have exchanged email, and it sounds as though he had far
more detail in mind for this human subspecies than managed to make it into
the IG product.  I never wanted the Syleans to be as _physically_ variant
as, say, the Suerrat or Luriani.  But some differing preconceptions of
Sylean history meant that I expected a greater _cultural_ difference than
Michael's limited description was able to provide. 

I will look forward to any further write-ups of "his" Syleans that Michael
can provide -- I think we're far more in agreement than I had first suspected.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:38:58 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Plea for help!

Richard there is 2 ISBA lists running, one I believe is going to be used for
RPG, they added the second one in Jan. when they thought the Goldinc one was
going down. Unfortunately I don't have a sign-up address for it at hand, I
might have it on my work computer and will check when I get to my office. If
I do have it I'll forward it to you. The trav-tech list is the old GDW-Beta
list I have found that address(below).

And thank you for your help. I'm slowly getting thisngs straightened out.
You are the only reply I've had and I really appriciate it.

Majordomo@qrc.com

subscribe trav-tech (your address) (worked for me, it will ask for a
confirmation)

trav-tech@qrc.com

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard A. Flores <cybernot@gte.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: Plea for help!


>Now how about a little help from you?
>
>>ISBA (Both)
>>Trav-Tech List
>
>What do you mean "Both"?  I'm subscribed to ISBA@goldinc.com is there
>another one?  If so, that may explain why I haven't received the
description
>for the current THUDDD.  Please send the address for the other one.  Also,
>could you send me the address that for the Trav-Tech list?
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:32:06 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Congratulations and the Next Step

At 01:21 AM 2/12/98 -0500, Semo wrote:
<Snip>...
>for example "Tell me now what <unknown word, abbreviation, symbol> means,
>pitiful wretch!"...

Good!  Much more direct, to the point; no pussyfooting around!

Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:48:07 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Rob Prior Where Are You?

>goldendj@pcisys.net
 writes:

>
>Sorry for the off-topic, but I'm looking for Rob. I vaguely recall others
>
>looking for him as well, but I guess I didn't pay enough attention to
>those
>
>message ... Flames for this grudgingly accepted at goldendj@pcisys.net

I'm here (wherever here is - I assume that the sysadmin hasn't changed the
domain names again, but I wouldn't bet more than a stale muffin on it).

David, I also replied to you personally, but I've been getting bounces
from all sorts of addresses that used to work. (Including Dom Mooney. Dom,
I'm really not ignoring you.)  The only reply I get to my messages is
"Your email has been noted." which doesn't actually say that they are
trying to solve the problem.  Seeing as I got branded a troublemaker last
time I pointed out email problems, I'm not pushing this one, because I
don't want my internal email to be screwed up as well as my external feed.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 22:18:00 -0000
From: bdmahan <BDMahan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

>how right you are. not many people new that little fact.  
>
>it is also a little known fact Japan had been trying to surrender with only
>one condition.  that ensuring the safety of the office of the Emperor.  if the
>US had agreed to that the war would have ended much, much sooner with out
>so many needless deaths.

IIRC the office remained but not the divinity, so it appears there was a 
condition in the surrender.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:35:47 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Ine Givar (full repost)

>Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:27:30 +0100
>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Ine Givar (long)

>>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>>Subject: Ine Givar (long)

>>It's late now. I'll try to finish this tommorrow.

>>  Andrew etc.

>Oh, I forgot to praise the excellent writeup of Ine Givar. I printed it,
>saved it as saveworthy Traveller e-mail and put it inside my LibData
>database. Please give us the second part, grovel grovel.

It was in digest 168 and it's archived on my web site. However I now have
a spell checked version and I keep getting requests to repost it. So in
response:

     ***The Ine Givar***

Overview: The Ine Givar are the main anti-Imperial terrorist group operating
in the Domain of Deneb during the final years of the 3rd Imperium. They are
an early expression of the tensions that were building in the latter years of
the 3rd Imperium (which would ultimately lead to Dulinor's assassination of
Strephon, the Rebellion, and then to Norris's democratic reforms in the
regency). However they were before their time and got frustrated at attempts
at peaceful reform and turned to violence.

History: Ine Givar was born on Rhylanor in 948. His parents were minor noble
"placekeepers" of the type which became increasingly common in the latter
Imperium. As he grew up, he travelled with his parents on many of the "fact
finding" make work missions that were the lot of a minor noble. During these
missions he became aware of the many oppressive and corrupt regimes that the
Imperium turned a blind eye to. These early travels were to have a profound
influence on him, leaving him deeply disillusioned with the Imperium.

He enrolled in the University of Rhylanor in 966, studying political science.
A very talented student, at first he excelled at his studies, gaining his
bachelors degree with first class honours in 970. However he had increasingly
become involved in politics during this time, gradually building up a group
of dedicated followers. He gained his Masters with honours in 968 and his
doctorate in 974. However rather than move into a comfortable job in the
bureaucracy, he choose to devote his life to agitating for peaceful democratic
changes to the "corrupt Imperial system". This rapidly gained him much
official disfavour, but did not prevent him from building up a subsector wide
following. With the coming of the Third Frontier War he was detained as a
"threat to security" in 980 and died in custody in 984. Normally, other than
a few minor protests, this would have been the end of the matter. However,
the authorities had not taken his lover, Kisla Famia, into account. Born into
the lower classes of Rhylanor, her great-grandparents and grandparents had
been executed during the psionic suppressions and she bore an almost
fanatical hatred of the Imperium. She also had an enormous talent for media
manipulation. With the end of the war and her own release in 987 she launched
a massive media campaign to "uncover the truth about Ine Givar's death".
Eventually this bore fruit and in 990 an official inquiry was convened. Over
the course of the inquiry, the evidence mounted that Givar had been subjected
to systematic brutalisation and torture. Naturally his supported expected
that those responsible would be brought to justice. However when the inquiry
finally delivered its finding in 992, it reported that Givar's death was a
"regrettable accident caused by his failure to cooperate fully with his
jailers".

In late 992, his supporters organised a mass rally outside the Rhylanor Naval
base (where Givar had been imprisoned) to demand those responsible be called
to task. It is uncertain just what happened, but during the demonstration a
detachment of Imperial Marines opened fire on the crowd. In the resulting
chaos and panic at least 700 demonstrators were killed.

From Kisla Famia's declaration after the Rhylanor massacre:
"The Empire speaks of honour; where was their honour when they murdered
Ine, where was their honour when they let his killers go free to ply their
vile trade, where was their honour when they slaughtered these innocents?
Where is their honour when they allow despots and tyrants kill and torture
and maim their citizens? They have no honour!"
"Ine believed in democracy, Ine also believed that democracy could be
achieved by peace and negotiation. They do not want peace, they do not want
democracy, they want only power and blood. If they want blood, I say let them
have blood! They tell us that the path to democracy is through patience and
negotiation; they tell us now is not the right moment. I say the time for
negotiation is over, the moment for democracy is now!"

From this point on, the Ine Givar movement abandoned peaceful change and
moved to terrorism to achieve their aims. Their first action was the dramatic
bombing of the Imperial Naval Intelligence headquarters on Rhylanor. Typical
of the bold audacious actions that became their trademark under Famia's
leadership. Within five years there were Ine Givar cells on most worlds
within the Domain of Deneb, within sixteen they had become the dominant
anti-Imperial movement in the Domain, and had cells extending as far as
Capital itself. The movements early highwater mark came in 1020 when Famia
masterminded an assassination attempt on the entire Imperial family. The
attempt failed, but it did leave Emperor Paulo's younger brother Elmor dead.

Around 1035, a shift occurred in the movement's leadership. Famia was by now
96 years old and her health was failing. She stepped down and Ine Givar's
son Natise took over the movements leadership. Natise Givar had both his
father's charisma and his mother's tactical and administrative abilities. He
also nursed a lasting hatred over his father's death. Under his leadership,
the movement grew in both strength and efficiency. Natise planned for the
long term, contacts were made with the Zhodani and Sword Worlds; and their
support was gained. Other terrorist groups were absorbed or eliminated and
the organisations targets came to include the megacorporations which
supported the Imperium.

In 1067 a leadership coup replaced Natise with Votan Gamiilash, one of the
movements "young Turks". Under Gamiilash the movement abandoned most of its
activities beyond Corridor sector, concentrating almost exclusively on the
domain of Deneb. Gamiilash also changed the movements focus; under her
leadership it became far more tied and dependent on Zhodani and Sword Worlds
support. It was under Gamiilash that the movement struck its first purely
civilian target. In 1075, Ine Givar operatives smuggled a fusion warhead
into the city of Kashar on Zivije. The resulting blast caused over 5,000,000
casualties (including 2,800,000 dead). It was as a result of this atrocity
that the Zhodani instigated an bloody coup in the movement and replaced
Gamiilash with a committee headed by Wardn Sortin in 1077.

This committee structure was to dominate the movement's leadership for the
next 40 years. Under the committee, the Ine Givar became little more than
an extension of the Zhodani and Sword Worlds intelligence services. The
Ine Givar were a major factor in the Fourth Frontier War. Ine Givar guerillas
tied up many Imperial troops which could have been better employed at the
front and provided invaluable intelligence to the Outworld Coalition. It was
Ine Givar agents who discovered that Imperial Naval Intelligence had
compromised the Zhodani's deep space base between Yres and Menorb and lead
to the Battle of Two Suns (however it did not prevent the Coalition from
loosing the battle).

After the Fourth Frontier War, the Ine Givar curtailed their activities
and rebuilt their strength for the next war. They continued to strike at
Imperial targets and fostered unrest on a number of worlds. As the Fifth
Frontier War drew nearer, their activities increased. Guerilla cadres were
established and on Efate and Ruie they moved to almost open warfare. With
the outbreak of the Fifth Frontier War in 1107, the Ine Givar sprung into
action. The carefully groomed Guerilla cadres tied down many Imperial troops
in the opening stages and provided bridgeheads on a number of worlds.
However the war was to prove to be a major setback for the movement. As the
Coalition campaign faltered, the Ine Givar cadres were left stranded and
destroyed. Much of the movement's strength was lost in the latter stages
of the war. The movement felt deeply betrayed by the Zhodani; and in 1114
Rojel Nuguma seized control of the movement. He greatly reduced the movement's
ties to the Zhodani and Sword Worlds and set about rebuilding and replacing
the lost cells. However, the movement had nearly been destroyed in the
Fifth Frontier War and it took a long time to recover. It was not until the
mid 1120's that the movement began to resume activities.

Organisation: The Ine Givar was originally an outgrowth of a political
movement and that heritage shows in its organisation. The movement is
directed by Central Committee, a group of thirteen individuals headed
by a President. In theory the Central Committee is the supreme body and
the President merely chairs the Central Committee and all decisions are
made collectively. However, in reality, the Ine Givar have never actually
conformed to this theoretical pattern. For the greater bulk of its
history, the real seat of power was the President, with the Central
Committee acting as a debating forum for the more powerful factions within
the organisation. Even during the so called "Committee Period" (1077 to
1114) the real power did not actually reside with the Central Committee
(at that time the Ine Givar were effectively controlled by the Zhodani
and Sword World's intelligence services).

Below the Central Committee are the Quadrants. Each Quadrant consists
roughly of four Imperial Subsectors and these are the basic organisational
unit of the Ine Givar. Each Quadrant is run by a Committee of seven
individuals. These are charged with carrying out the overall directions of
the Central Committee. Each Quadrant divides itself into a military and a
political arm, both completely independent of the other but answering to
the Quadrant Committee. For reasons of security, no person in the political
arm is supposed to have any knowledge of the personnel of the military arm
and vis versa, however, as might be expected this is not always possible.
Both the military and political arms then divide themselves into a number
of Districts (the actually size of an individual District is dependent on
a number of factors, but most cover between four and six worlds), though
the military and political districts do not necessarily correspond.

The political arm is responsible for organising all forms of political
agitation, from student demonstrations to workers strikes; and is the most
"visible" face of Ine Givar. The military arm is divided into four distinct
types: Main force units (Guerilla Cadres), Direct action units (the classic
terrorist), Intelligence units (deep agents planted for intelligence
gathering), and Special operations groups (Agent Provectures). In order to
minimise the security risks, both the military and political arms are
organised along the classic "Cell structure". Under this organisation, each
"cell" is a completely independent unit with only the cell leader knowing
any outside contacts, and even then only one contact up (ie the cell leader
will know how to contact one cell in the organisation above them and any
cells subordinate to them). Thus if a cell leader is captured, whilst all
the cells below may be compromised, the cells above and across are far less
likely to be compromised. This "cell structure" has remained relatively
constant throughout the Ine Givar's existence (indeed it is the most common
organisational structure of such groups).

Aims and Philosophy: The driving aim of the Ine Givar has always been to
reform the Imperium into a democratic society. This philosophy unlies all of
the organisation's aims and demands. Its manifesto can be summed up quite
simply they demand: an end to the nobility, that the Imperium remove all
corrupt and oppressive local governments, that the Imperium restrains the
predatory economic activities of Imperial corporations, and that the Imperial
security apparatus be replaced with a system not riddled with corruption and
brutality.


If I've missed out anything, or anyone can come up with more ideas, please
let me know.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #179
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 17 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 180



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Guerrilla warfare
Japanese factions
Re: Religion in America
Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!
Re: Galaxies in collision?
re: The Evil Empire 
Re: Army, Marines, etc.
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: Minor race homeworlds
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #177
Re: Religion in America
Re: Passenger Liners
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: Passenger Liners
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #163
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Best TML Acronym
[none]
FFS2 - call for official errata
Re: Religion in Mileu 0
Re: Jump Bomb
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:18:40 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Guerrilla warfare

Hello,
>This is  similar to the issue of a geurilla groups deliberately
>blurring the distinction between civilians and combatants.  Under
...
>civilian casualties ends up rewarding people who sought
>to bring them about.

  A heck of a good point. In an urban environment guerrilla attacks
will be indistinguishable from terrorism; this can be a wonderful
way to complicate the lives of over-armed merc PC's. While they may
be expecting tough hostage situations, they may be challenged by a
_literal_ no-win situation, or even less subtle ambiguities like
simply killing suspected terrorists without evidence (stop them
before they can strike again - but what if I'm wrong?).

  There may be some basis for insights into real internal wars here.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:20:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Japanese factions

>Potsdam Proclamation.  He was the only person in Japan w/ the juice to order
>it and make it stick...and still there were factions of the military who were
>at least thinking about a coup "to save the Emperor" of course.

  There actually was an attack (btn strength?) on the Imperial Palace,
apparently. I pointed out the possibilities for a twisted ASL scenario
to a devotee just before the 50th anniversary...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:24:14 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Religion in America

> 86% believe in a God or a Supreme Being (7% do not, 6% don't know/refuse)
> 86% believe in heaven
> 77% believe in hell
> 51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms
> 60% believe that the world was created in 7 days

...and fifty billion horseflies can't be wrong...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:20:55 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Imperium Games belly up? CALM DOWN!

On Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:13 GMT0, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <VA.00000611.008da381@taz>
> 
> Simon,
> 
> > wait in eager anticipation of the traveller CD.  Just think, I can pull 
> > all of those Library Data entries from all the adventures, Journals, 
> > web sites, etc and compile the version for My Traveller Universe.  I 
> > can hardly wait.
> 
> There is a (complete?) Library Database on the web (URL, anyone?)

Drum roll please...

http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/library/

Thunkya.  Thunkyaverymuch.  (Elvis has left the building)



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:41:25 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

>Hey Stephen,
>
>Saw a report on the same thing on CNN channel on my desktop.  According to
>the report, it's a small globular galaxy believed to have a large amount of
>dark matter.
>
>Do you want I should clip it and send it to you?
>
>Richard
>cybernot@gte.net

BTW Dark matter is the pro astronomers name for handwave. Whenever
something like galactic spin rates, galactic group sizes, galactic
formation doesn't fit physics astronomers put a ltlle dark matter here and
there to make it fit. As there generally is more dark matter than normal
one in a typical astronomer conjured galaxy I'd say large scale astronomy
is one of the weakest sciences around.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:55:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: The Evil Empire 

 eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) the heretic ;-) wrote:

>The RCEC were grubby little looters clawing to the top over the bodies of
>all those Wilders they stole from and killed. Better to deal with honest
>Reavers who admit what they are. The Third Imperium, in the final analysis,
>wasn't any better...read the dirty details in Milieu 0.

Don't worry - when an expanding TL12? RC meets an expanding TL17 Regency, I
know who my money's on. Where do you think that most of the retrospective
comments on the Star Vikings come from? ;-)

The M0 attitude is so much more believable to me - hints at the nastyness
that drove an Empire outwards at more than a parsec a year. Personally
(IMTU) the avoidance of the Rim is because the Sylean Scouts know that the
Rim is at TL13 but not expansionist.

Dom

Dom :-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:58:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Army, Marines, etc.

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>   There Army still uses more A1s than A2s and for a reason. The A2s aren't a
>whole lot of an improvement.  IMO, the only aspects of the A2 that are wanted
>are the CITV (Commanders Independant Thermal Viewer) and the GPS.  The rest is
>a bunch of electronic junk.  Has a bad habit for failing and leaving them SOL.
>We can fight an A1 say w/o power.  It's not easy, but it's all a matter of
>being a good tanker.   The A2 u don't have that option (needless to say w/ the
>CITV u can't fire the Tank Commanders .50 cal buttoned up.  Tisk tisk... i'd
>rather not have it...)

I'm sure Vickers and the UK MoD would happily sell you Challenger 2's... ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 04:31:43 EST
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

<< I'm not sure if it is in the formal legal language, but since 1948 when the
USAAF became the USAF, >>

  I believe that was 1947.

<< there has been a kind of "gentleman's agreement": US Army gets to use
helicopters, USAF flies everything that's fixed wing. Etc, snipped. >>

  Personally I think this is humorous. <LOL>

  Mark @ GRG

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:34:41 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

>Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:03:28 -0600 (CST)
>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

>Quoth Hans Rancke-Madsen:
>> About _Azhanti High Lightning_. There were nine Lightning Class cruisers
>> named _"Something" High Lightning_. Since four of them were indisputably
>> human races of the Imperium, it seems to permissible assumption that the
>> other five were too. Not unassailable, but quite plausible, IMO.

>The races used for naming AHL cruisers are:

>Azhanti, Syleans, Vilani, Fiorin, Geonee, Acheron, Suerrat, Ilurians, and
>Luriani.

Marc has on at least five occassions that I've noticed specifically
mentioned them as Human races. Don't know about the rest of you's, but
that's good enough for me.

>Carlos Alos-Ferrer has done some superb work on the short-and-technical
>Geonee, which hopefully will be web-accessible again soon.  John Snead and
>I have done some independent work on the Suerrat: I'm spending part of
>today readying some of my own write-up of these arborean-chimplike
>homonids for web publication.  And I applaud the splendid write-up, just
>appeared on TML, for the aquatic Luriani.  Did I see on the list which I
>snipped mention of someone's take on the Azhanti?

I must say thank you for the positive feedback I've had on the Luriani.
It really helps in keeping motivated.

>I have some notes I need to spruce up on the Acheron as a troglodytic
>species (inspired in part by my never-finished entry to the "Feast of the
>Voyagers" web adventure contest -- anyone remember that?).

>Fiorin and Ilurians, anyone?  (What interesting eco-niches remain to be
>filled?  A furred, cold-adapted species?  Free-fall adaptees a la Niven's
>*The Smoke Ring*?  Radical takes on sexual dimorphism?)

Might I suggest we "ringfence" at least one of these races. That way
individual referees could develop the race for their own campaigns without
worring about it being invalidated later. Mignt I suggest we ringfence the
Illurians.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 03:42:15
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #177

At 01:27 PM 16/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Traveller-digest      Monday, February 16 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 177
>
>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Nukes and nuking
>
>Ling Standard Products gave Lanax on Aramanxs/Aramis fission powered
>submarines in their WWII style squabble (Challenge Wet Navy merc
>adventure). In 1119 IMTU they've going full tilt on bombmaking in a small
>research station in the icy cold southern Lanax (remarkably similar to the
>heavy water plant in Norway during WWII).
>
>They'll nuke their heads off as the Imperium is busy fighting the Vargr to
>bother with pesky nuke wars. My team of PCs are one jump from arriving
>there offering "their" nukes to the highest bidder (they've joined the
>looting of Depot earlier and carted away with a few nuclear warheads).
>

Depending on your interpretation of how nuclear dampers work and how much
"collateral damage" making nuclear material non-radioactive does, I imagine
that it is a fairly small task for a IN ship with a nuke damper to hire a
Belter ship, tell him to "Find the high-grade radioactives" on the planet,
and then switch on the damper.

Then tell the locals that you can keep this up as long as neccessary.

>
>Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:30:46 EST
>From: RSpake2064@aol.com
>Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)
>
>In a message dated 98-02-16 12:27:53 EST, you write:
>
> As I recall my history (FWIW), the military was still not willing to
>surrender
> after the first bomb, although the civilian membership of the Cabinet had
>long
> since been pressing for terms (the holdup there was the Allied
"Unconditional
> Surrender" demands.) After the second bomb was dropped, the Emperor himself
> intervened and ordered the military to surrender according to the terms of
>the
> Potsdam Proclamation.  He was the only person in Japan w/ the juice to order
> it and make it stick...and still there were factions of the military who
were
> at least thinking about a coup "to save the Emperor" of course.
> 
> Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)    >>
>
>how right you are. not many people new taht little fact.  
>
>it is also a little known fact Japan had been trying to surrender with only
>one condition.  that ensuring the safty of the office of the Emperor.  if the
>US had aggreed to that teh warf whould have ended much, much sooner with out
>so many needless deaths.
>
>richard

What turns tragedy into farce is that this is precisely the deal that, in
the end, went down - the trial and execution of the War Cabinet, but the
safety of the person of the Emperor was guaranteed.

It should also be noted that following this, Truman was re-elected.

I believe that had this offer been made through an intermediary, then it
would have been accepted at any time following the breach of the Japanese
inner defensive perimeter.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:35:59 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Religion in America

Andrew Boulton schrieb:

> > 51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms
> > 60% believe that the world was created in 7 days
> 
> That's just depressing.
Yes, I know, but Americans have shown weird opinions in other polls as
well:
I once heard that a sizeable portion of US-High Schoolers believe that
Hitler (or the Nazis) are still in power in Germany....
When we tried to make this study in our school (an international school
in the Netherlands, a country nextdoor to Germany) 25% of the American
Sections High School Students professed the same opinion, and that
living no farther than 20 kms from the border... Somehow figures.
Somehow also explains why my Father and I, when we were in the States,
once were greeted with "Heil Hitler" as soon as the waitress figured out
we were speaking German.... Sometimes on is just left speechless.
Nuff said!....

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:54:35 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Passenger Liners

Anders Backman wrote:
 
> >IMTU, (told everybody I was going to steal it ;-) you couldn't build
> >jump ships that large...even warships...but if you *could* then you
> >should benefit from a number of economies of scale.
 
> In typical heretical style Eris not only flaunts the holy 100dTon minimum
> jumpcapable ship rule, he IHTU (In His Traveller Universe) has imposed an
> UPPER limit. The stake I say!

I'm used to you stogy Europeans and your "he's different, let's burn
him" approach. Why do you think my ancesters came to America in the
first place? ;->

IMTU, the upper (and lower for that matter) limit to ship volume is
driven indirectly by the volume, power and cost of related technologies,
and those technologies vary by TL. 
The volume, power required and cost/unit-volume of maneuver drives, CG
units, and jump drives all vary by TL, and power plants, themselves,
vary in volume and cost by TL.  These factors place functional bounds on
both the lower and upper practical/economical volumes for ships.

Please remember, I *am* a heretic who uses a lot of alter-tech IMTU, ex.
stutterwarp for STL and jump drives for FTL, so my way isn't for
everybody.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:53:19 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <a2e0b4ca.34e6c3d1@aol.com>
 
> > These are percentages of  Americans that believe various things:

> > 86% believe in a God or a Supreme Being (7% do not, 6% don't know/refuse)
 
> That's quite high. I'm surprised.

No, that's about right in the US. It doesn't mean all 86% are very
religious. You'll also notice it doesn't specify *which* God they
believe in. 
 
> > 86% believe in heaven
> > 77% believe in hell
 
> Huh? Can you have one without the other?

Apparently, quite a few people think so.  I run into people all the time
that believe in life after death, but don't believe in hell, so it
doesn't surprise me that more believe in heaven than believe in hell.
 
> > 51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms
> > 60% believe that the world was created in 7 days
 
> That's just depressing.

No, that's encouraging! I'm surprised the majority polled accept
evolution, in some form, that's a *good* sign. At the public college
where I teach we had a some trouble just 2 years ago over the teaching
of *human* evolution in biology classes. It was Ok for the textbooks to
teach non-human evolution, but we actually opposition in the curriculum
committee over keeping the teaching of human evolution in biology.

As for the creation of the world in 7 days, quite a few religious
Christians believe that *and* the scientific record. One rationalization
is that the days refer to "God's days" and we humans have no clear
understanding as to what God might consider a day. The 7 days can be
seen as alogorical, not literal, and that's also a common preception.
And then may of us follow the dictum of "render unto Ceaser what is
Ceaser's and to God what is God's", and seperate what we *believe*
religiously and what we *think* scientifically into mental
compartments....who was it that said "consistancy is the hobgoblin of
simple minds", Wilde? Shaw?

Ob Trav: Religion seems to be an almost universal human meme. I've
noticed that even most self-proclaimed atheists are "religiously"
anti-religious. ;->  That being the case, I think it is likely that most
of humanitii will believe in a Supreme Being(s) and practice some form
of religion. The religions of Earth will have been spread widely by
Solomani colonists and missionaries, so you'll find Christians, Muslims,
Bhuddists, Hindus, Taoists, etc all over the Known Universe. I think the
other races of man will contribute their own religious beliefs and
practices as well.  

Foex, IMTU, ships still practice "Light Dimming" prior to entering jump,
and it *never* was to conserve energy. It started as a traditional
*religious* practice from one of the main Vilani religious sects. In
that sect you always dimmed (or put out) lights before offering a prayer
of protection, and that practice was carried over into space. Now the
practice has been taken up across all of Known Space, even while the
religious meaning behind it hasn't. Aboard ship, dimming the lights
provides a warning that jump is about to take place, the religious can
take a moment to pray, and the religious and non-religious, alike, can
brace themselves for the wrenching twist of entering jumpspace.


Eris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:17:55 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Passenger Liners

>Please remember, I *am* a heretic who uses a lot of alter-tech IMTU, ex.
>stutterwarp for STL and jump drives for FTL, so my way isn't for
>everybody.
>
>Eris

Well, first I thought about trying to out-heresy you (IMTU I've let my PCs
kill Yaskoydroy) but then the inquisition [sic?] sounded more like fun. ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:13:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #163

aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor) wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:10:54 -0500, you (Dom) wrote:
>>So before we all go into a frenzy (and Phil McGregor goes into ecstasy at
>>GT becoming the published system;-) ) remember that Traveller isn't going
>>to die even if this as yet unsubstantiated rumour is true. It has survived
>>4 editions and 2 main publishers so far.
>
>Aw, gee, am I *that* predictable? Shucks!

It was just a guess :-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:12:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:

>And let's not forget that it can _easily_ suppress piracy out to the
>100-diameter limit, while also serving as a host for Virus infection.
>Furthermore, "destroyer" is spelled with seven different letters and
>"Templar is also spelled with seven.  Ergo, destroyer-class warships are
>fronts for Templar activities.  Finally, a destroyer could launch bacterial
>aerosols into the atmosphere, against which non-Solomani populations would
>have no resistance and succumb to in short order.

You starting?

;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:09:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Best TML Acronym

 Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>, our soon to be flambeed one if the canon
police catch him, wrote:


>I intend to blatently imitate IMTU from now on.
>
>Eris,
>    IMTU I'm *still* a heretic

No, no, no.

IEOTUBYO you're still a heretic.

Dom :)

(In Every Other Traveller Universe But Your Own)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:01:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

Dave Golden wrote:

>OTHER PERSON>Worse, the facilities to do so aren't much more complex. The
>problem is in
>OTHER PERSON>delivering the agents. scarily, that isn't much of a problem
>either.
>	Say, in a briefcase carried onto a crowded jumbo jet flying from
>New York
>to London ...?

Will you stop *monkeying* around with this topic. Playing with these things
could make the Doomsday clock strike *12*...

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:18:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: FFS2 - call for official errata

Dave/Guy,

Can you give me an official answer on something in FFS2? I was doing calcs
for carried small craft for my baby carrier and I notice that the number of
support personnel relates to the mass of the carried craft. On pre-designed
ships this isn't in the USP or Ship Card.

Michael Koehne suggested using 15 to 20 Tonnes per Displacment Ton as a
starting point. What's your opinion as writers of the supplement?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:46:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Religion in Mileu 0

In mail you write:

>>Not growing, the numbers remain the same. The CC and allies of them just
>>got more aggressive and vocal the last years, thereby gaining in
>>influence. No new Christians are beeing converted in the US, AFAIK!
>
> I dunno.  I remember reading a good number of articles in mainstream
> American magazines (TIME being one I remember pretty clearly) within
> the last two  years that lead me to believe that Christianity is
> growing by leaps and bounds  in the U.S.  The Catholic Church is
> losing ground in a big way, but the more liberal churches of other
> sects are gaining quite a number of followers.  And the
> fundamentalists grow alarmingly each year (and have been for quite a
> few years).

The important question is "how many of these 'converts' weren't at
least *nominally* 'Christian' beforehand?". The folks being lost by the
Catholics are going to other *Christian* churches for the most part.
And the same goes for the folks joining the "fundamentalists".

These are folks who were *alrerady* christian. Wha may be changing is
the number of people who are actively practicing their religion. 
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:13:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Bomb

In mail you write:

> Hey, whatever happened to TDX? It showed up in Striker and a couple of JTAS
> articles, then disappeared completely, it isn't even in Emperor's Arsenal.

I still like the other "version" of TDX we came up with. Instead of
exploding at right angles to the gravity vector (giving a "horizontal
disk") it explodes *along* the vector. That is, you get a vertical
"spike" effect. It's great from cracking bunkers and for anti-tank
mines. 


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:23:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

In mail you write:

> At 01:23 AM 15/02/98 -0600, Eris wrote:
>>On 02/14/98 at 09:55 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>>
>>>Yes I can. Contrary to the opinion of far too many people, a thrown rock
>>>is a deadly weapon. There's a *reason* why riot police wear those helmets
>>>and carry those shields. Without them, rocks are *deadly*. With them, the
>>>rocks are merely dangerous.
>>
>>>There's a case on record of a grizzly bear charging a railroad "track
>>>walker". The track walker was an amateur softball pitcher. He *killed* the
>>>grizzly by throwing rocks at it. Anything that can kill an adult grizzly
>>>is equivalent to a bullet as far as "force" is concerned.
>>
>>Hum, let's see...a quarter pound rock, about two inches in diameter thrown
>>at eighty miles per hour...that would be about 110 grams at about 36 meters
>>per second.  Using G^3, and rounding everything off, we get...
>>
>>  J = 108 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 70
>>
>>  DV = (70 x .735 / 5 )^.5 = 3
>>
>>...at best we're talking about 1d3, at best.  That track walker must have
>>had some beaucoup good rolls on his throws. ;->
>>
>>That *really* seems too low, though, doesn't it! You'd *think* a rock
>>thrown hard would do more damage than that. Did I do the math wrong? 
>>
> The maths worked out the same for me :) If you put the numbers into TNE you
> get a Dam of 1D6-1, the same as a .22 Long Rifle. Now the .22LR has been
> used to kill an elephant with one shot, but I don't think you could do that
> with one rock of that size. 
>
> I suspect that rocks are dangerous for their energy because of their
> relatively high momentum. This same high momentum/low energy compared to a
> .22LR is why I don't think a rock would work on an elephant (poor
> penetration).

Please note that "two inch diameter rock" and "quarter pound" are both
*way* off. Typical "track ballast" is more like 3 to 4 inches. And it
weighs a lot more than a quarter pound. 

I just dug into the bucket I toos the "odd" chunks of rock I pick up
into. I have here a rock that fits comfortably into my hand, and is of
typical track ballast size. It weighs 15 ounces. It's roughly 2.5" x
3.5" x 2.5". And for attack purposes, you'd want something more in the
"fist sized" range. Which means it'll *easily* weigh one kilo.

>>  J = 108 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 70

J = 1000 * 36^2 / 2011 = 645

>>  DV = (70 x .735 / 5 )^.5 = 3

I've got no idea what the ".735" in this is, so I can't complete the
calc. 

But I can tell you from personal experience that a fist sized rock
*tossed casually* gave me several stitches and almost gave me a
concussion.

Conside the skull as armor, and use the "blunt trauma damage" rules if
the rock can't penetrate.

ps. the two inch  rock is just about the right size for a sling. And a
trainer slinger with a rock that size *will* kill you. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #180
**********************************

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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 17 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 181



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Getting Stoned
Re: New developments in Laser Focusing!
300,000 T passenger liner
VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: Religion in America
Re: Core Data
Re:
Re: Galaxies in collision?
MT Errata
Armageddon:  Used to be: How can a Destroyer devastate a  planet?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: Total War...
Flood Myth and Galactic Churches
Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155
Re: Relieved of Duty!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 22:11:52 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

On 02/16/98 at 06:12 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>> The French, sadly, will never be fully integrated with anybody except
>> themselves.

>Well, who wants to integrate with the French anyway?

Ooo! La, la! ;->

Now, returning the subject to "null development in key areas" of Traveller
technology...who, besides me, has worked/is working out development
sequences to take increasing TL's into account?

Here's what I've done with StutterWarp (yes I know it's altertech, but it's
what *I* use), just the first pass:

 E = Desired warp Efficiency in 30,000 km hexes/minute.
  
 MW = Vol_Ship * (E/TL)^3 (estimated)
 
 Warp_Vol = 20 + (60/TL) * (MW)^.5 
 
 Surface Area = Warp_Vol/2  
 
 Mass = 2 * Warp_Vol
 
 Cost = Warp_Vol * (3.6/TL)
 
 Final efficiency...
 
 Unloaded E = TL * (MW/unloaded_Mass)^.5
 
 Loaded E = TL * (MW/loaded_Mass)^.5

With these formula you have to look at trade-offs between cost and
performance, and the the trade-offs change at different TL's.  Larger ships
can actually get higher pseudo-velocities for the same volume, but costs
and power needed *rapidly* go through the roof...especially for large
ships.

I'm looking to do the same sort of thing with all the technologies.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 20:30:13 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

On 02/16/98 at 04:23 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>> Humm, a .22LR through the eye and directly into the brain, would do it. 
>> It'd be one lucky shot, though.  I've got my doubts about a rock and a
>> grizzly, I *sure* wouldn't want to put it to a test.

>I doubt it, Eris.  I'm pretty sure that there is enough bone behind the
>eye socket to stop or deflect a .22LR.  Thanks for playing, though ;)

Pinball, James, pinball!  A bounce here, a bounce there, and there's no
telling what might happen. ;-> It *would* take a lucky shot. Say, have you
heard the one about the bullet that penetrated a guy's skull, traveled
*around* his brain and exited the other side?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:02:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: New developments in Laser Focusing!

In mail you write:

> Well folks, apparently back in 1997 there was a significant development
> here in laser optics.
>
> A picosecond plasma mirroir which can handle a 10^15 Watt laser beam. 
> reference page 95 of the january 1998 DISCOVER magazine for details.
>
> It sems to me that this might provide an intermediate step from the
> conventional optics being deployed today and the grav focusing of high
> TLs.  I have always used grav focusing and I think it is just as nifty a
> wandwave/speculation as nuc dampers and artificial grav itself.

Slight problem. A picosend is 10^-12 seconds. So that 10^15 W beam is
only delivering 1 kilojoule. Or about the energy of a firecracker...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:06:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: 300,000 T passenger liner

Somebody asked about huge passenger ships. Last night I did a rough QSDS1.5
design of a 300,000 T passenger liner. Bear in mind that there are several
possible sources for errors: The figures for the hull was arrived at by
taking a 3000 T hull and multiply all figures by 100. This certainly can't
be exactly right, but I hope it is good enough to get close. Also, crew
requirements are bound to be distorted. 

The figures I came up with was: Price of ship (without discount): MCr78,400;
crew: 2000; passengers: 58,000 (Mid passengers only).

To calculate the price of a starship ticket, figure out the yearly operating
expenses of a ship (including a fair profit to provide a return for the money
invested in the ship) and divide it by the number of passengers carried over
the year.

Expenses:

Crew salaries: For this I've ssumed four different categories of crew:
Command, Crew, Medic, and steward. I've assumed the following average
monthly salaries: Command: Cr7,500, Crew: Cr5,000, Medic: Cr2,500,
Steward: Cr1,250 (This corresponds roughly to an average skill of 2.5).
Yearly payroll: Mcr 66.315000
Crew life support: 2201*2000*35 = 154,070,000
Passenger life support: 3,654,000,000
Maintenance: 78,400,000.

Operating expenses (Based on 35 jumps/year and 90% utilization):
                      
Crew salaries:           66,315,000	(0.7%)
Crew life support:      154,070,000	(1.7%)
Passenger life supp.: 3,654,000,000  	(39.9%)
Maintenance:             78,400,000	(0.9%)
Fuel (At Cr300/T):      315,000,000	(3.4%)
Payments & profit:    4,900,000,000	(53.4%)
- -------------------------------    
                      9,167,785,000	(100%)  


Assuming the ship makes 35 jumps per year and is 90% full on the average,
it will carry 1,827,000 passengers each year. Dividing that up into the
yearly expenses will give you a cost of a Mid Passage of Cr 5,018.

Note that passenger life support is far too expensive IMO. If you reduce
them to something reasonable you can easily shave another Cr1000 off the
price. Also, maintenance, bank payments and profit is based on a ship
price that assumes the ship is a one off. If it is part of a class of
ship and gets, say, 20% discount, you can reduce the price of a ticket
by another Cr500.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:20:56 +-200
From: Jyrki Paajanen <jyrki.paajanen@jyrki.pp.fi>
Subject: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155

It doesn't matter.  The US was attacked and had a right to
do what it thought would save it's soldiers lives by bringing
the war to an end.  If it felt that both getting the USSR into
the war an using nukes was the most reliable way to do this.
It had every right.  It doesn't matter which one worked.
It also doesn't matter what other approaches "might"
have worked.  If the US didn't want to gamble on them,
then it doesn't have to.  The US didn't have bombs to
waste on demonstration explosions and I'm not sure
how you embargo all of Japanese occupied China.

In anycase, the US can hardly be seperated out for
condemnation for using the tatics (bombing cities)
that their foe helped initiate and everyone in
the war did.  The fact that the use of nukes to do
it did have a reasonable expitation of ending the
war quickly only makes if more justifiable.


So You are saying that when US next time bombs Iraq they can (and should be 
allowed)  defend their country by destroying whole New York or some other 
big city in USA with bioweapons.

Jyrki Paajanen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:43:19 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

> one in a typical astronomer conjured galaxy I'd say large scale astronomy
> is one of the weakest sciences around.


What if most of the matter in the universe is not stars but weak
protostars and brown dwarf?  Or just gas giants?  THAT is dark matter.  

Conjecture is never weak, it is just conjecture.  Until we getter better
astrronomy instruments we will not know.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:37:46 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Religion in America

At 08:20 PM 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote:

>IIRC, Judaism has no hell.

You've never been to my mother-in-laws' for a Seder.
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:47:33 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Core Data

Steve Daniels schrieb:
> 
> Hello Volker,
> 
> I was just looking at the Core sector revisions.  Did I miss something?
> Where are Santry and Cordova?  I can't find them.  Has there been a
> change in where they're located?

Hmm, I was working with the Data Marc sent around some time ago (still
available on Joe Hecks page). In this data some of the names have been
changed again, along them Santry and Cordova (as they are not in the
list anymore...). If you know where they *should* be (as this is still a
topic of debate), be sure to tell me, so that I can change the names
back! 
According to M:0, Santry is located at 1736, and Cordova at 1836...but
some say this is not right... Any comments anyone?
> 
> Bloo

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:49:50 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re:

>>	Say, in a briefcase carried onto a crowded jumbo jet flying from
>>New York
>>to London ...?
>
>Will you stop *monkeying* around with this topic. Playing with these things
>could make the Doomsday clock strike *12*...

Yes, I second the motion, *willis* you please stop?

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:29:42 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

>> one in a typical astronomer conjured galaxy I'd say large scale astronomy
>> is one of the weakest sciences around.
>
>
>What if most of the matter in the universe is not stars but weak
>protostars and brown dwarf?  Or just gas giants?  THAT is dark matter.
>
>Conjecture is never weak, it is just conjecture.  Until we getter better
>astrronomy instruments we will not know.

OK, astronomers come up with atheory for galaxy formation. Then they test
it versus known physical laws such and find that their galaxies should blow
apart.
They could:

1) Think that perhaps their galaxy formation, estimate of galactic mass etc
is in err

2) Invent a new kind of mass that doesn't interact trough light and doesn't
correspond to anything detected that will save their theories. They dub
this new type of mass as dark matter (no, dark matter isn't brown dwarfs,
interstellar hydrogen etc - it doesn't interact with light at all, neither
for observation nor heating/heat transfer.

Number 2 is IMO not allowed when doing science, you're not allowed to
invent unobservable phenomena to save an experimantally unsound theory.

What if someone wanted his neat theories of a flat earth remain despite
observational data of suns angle at different locations etc. He could then
postulate a lightbending property to the earth such that all curvature
effects derived from it. He then postulates that this bending field is
impossible to detect by any other means. Why should this scientific trick
be less correct than the one done by cosmologists?

This is off-topic so I'll shut my mouth about this unless someone want to
continue this on e-mail.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:29:35 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: MT Errata

If I remember correctly, there was a sheet of errata packed in with the MT
boxed set (Player's Manual, Ref's Manual, Imp. Encyclopedia, Spinward Map)
Does anyone have this errata or any errata for MT?

I am curious about the skill "combat rifleman". It is only available through
"Special Combat" which is fairly rare, even for the military careers. I
would think that an Army or Marine character would have a much better chance
of getting "combat rifleman".
This is what I have done: For all "military" careers, "gun combat" includes
"combat rifleman"
Does this seem like a reasonable method?

Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing
Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:34:19 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Armageddon:  Used to be: How can a Destroyer devastate a  planet?

>> Actually, it doesn't.  Those rocks are in orbit and in order to
>> alter their vectors you need to expend a lot of juice.  A friend
>> of mine did some research at Naval Postgrad school concerning
>> present day asteroid defense.  The verdict is available on the
>> web as the first listing under the "Asteroid Defense" subject (so >> 
he says).  And what was that verdict you ask?  The verdict was:
>>  
>> We die.  All of us.
>>  
>> (If the rock is bigger than 100m across).  
>>  
>> All of the nukes humanity has ever made would stop a 1 km rock from
>> doing the nasty on the whole planet.
>
>If you catch it early enough, you may be able to nudge it just enough 
>to make it miss. Breaking it into smaller bits *may* help. Yes, it 
>means you get impacts over a larger area (which may do more damage), 
>but if you're lucky many will be small enough to burn up in the 
>atmosphere.
>

What?  Are we discussing the Movie Armageddon?  That's not supposed to 
be out until this summer!

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:51:29 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

GoldRushG@aol.com writes:

><< I'm not sure if it is in the formal legal language, but since 1948 when the
>USAAF became the USAF, >>
>
>  I believe that was 1947.

   Correct.

><< there has been a kind of "gentleman's agreement": US Army gets to use
>helicopters, USAF flies everything that's fixed wing. Etc, snipped. >>
>
>  Personally I think this is humorous. <LOL>

   It would be, except that the truth is even more bizarre.  The Army for
years had fixed wing aircraft (and still might, my info is a little dated).
They were strictly used for observation and were unarmed.  At various points
the Army tried to get armed, fixed wing aircraft but the projects
were--sorry for the pun--shot down by the Air Force.  A few years back the
Air Force finally offered up its fleet of aging A-10s to the Army, which
said thanks but no thanks (sort of like the way you turn down the offer of a
1985 Jaguar with 500,000 km, noticeable rust, and an unexplained fluid leak).

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:47:28 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

>> > 51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms
>> > 60% believe that the world was created in 7 days
> 
>> That's just depressing.
>
>No, that's encouraging! I'm surprised the majority polled accept
>evolution, in some form, that's a *good* sign. At the public college
>where I teach we had a some trouble just 2 years ago over the teaching
>of *human* evolution in biology classes. It was Ok for the textbooks to
>teach non-human evolution, but we actually opposition in the curriculum
>committee over keeping the teaching of human evolution in biology.

In the October 1997 issue of Scientific American, in the "Science and the
Citizen" section there is an interesting article about other reasons for the
disbelief in evolution.  The guy who studied this was looking for specific
non-religious rationales, and he came across a number of beliefs that tended
to repeat themselves:

* That mutations are always harmful, never beneficial.
* That methods used in dating things are incorrect.
* That, as a result of the above two things, evolution is a statistical
impossibility.

I can see where the author's coming from here, because I've had a number of
discussions on evolution with people who are apparently "educated" who have
seriously skewed beliefs about evolution.

Semo

(My apologies if this post makes no sense.  I am currently very ill, and my
brain isn't working up to full speed)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:47:21 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Total War...

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> > >war (in traveller) then is it equally abhorent to put *any* military
> > >facility or any military related industry in a civilian area? I
> > >would say yes. You can't have it both ways.
> > 	The Geneva convention explicitly recognizes this. It defines unlawful
> > targets, such as schools, hospitals, religious centers and cultural places.
> > But if you use *any* unlawful target for military purposes, you forfeit its
> > status as a protected item, and it becomes a lawful and appropriate target
> I meant more broadly. If you put an ammo dump *next* to a school,
> for example. The letter of the convention is not broken, but there
> has to be (IMO) some thought to the reality of conflict.

The convention forbids the use of "human shield." I think this includes
stationing an ammo dump next to unlawful targets - so it is forbidden.

<sarcasm>
But, in the era of smart  bombs, the question is irrevelant. The almighty
U.S.A.F. can put the bomb through the ventilation shafts of the ammo dump,
the building next to it doesn't get a scratch.

Like in Iraq, with B-52s...
</sarcasm>

Mikko Parviainen
- -- 
Kaikkien maailman kommunistien on ymmrrettv, ett 
poliittinen valta kasvaa kivrin piipusta.
  -Mao Zedong

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:37:50 -0000
From: "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
Subject: Flood Myth and Galactic Churches

Hi guys,

On the subject of the 40 days of Big Rain...

    There was a show on Discovery recently about the biblical flood myth. It
came to the conclusion that the deluge was actually the flooding of the
Black Sea. Apparently the Bosphorus was a dam holding back the
mediterranean. It eroded, or was fractured by a quake and a huge wall of
water flowed into the black sea region. There was a much smaller sea there
beforehand with a level well below mean sea level.

    I've no other evidence other than that reported on the tube. Thought it
might help settle the issue.

BTW. Would it be possible to create a Saturn type ring of water/ice at very
low earth orbit. I'm "at sea" on this but is there not a point just above
the high atmostphere where the temperature rises above freezing and liquid
water would be possible? Something to do with solor wind, I think?

On the subject of the pan-galactic church... (all opinion)

    The long night was a period of isolation for many systems where
pan-galatic political systems were absent. In this arena, old beliefs would
resurge. If there was a corresponding failing of technology/sciences, then
more basic human needs for salvation, hope and succour would arise. Religion
would almost certainly become the more dominant social gel. After the long
night passed, the newfound faith would decline somewhat in the face of
advance of tech and extraplanetary exposure, but would be, by that time,
entrenched.
    The indigenous religions that existed on worlds before the Long Night,
however minor or however subdued, would soon grow to be world encompassing.
While not the case for all worlds, it would certainly be a not insignificant
fraction of all worlds that would emerge from the long night with theocratic
elements in their social, if not political make-up. It would be like Europe
emerging from the Dark ages. There were many kingdoms, with differing
political make-ups, but all under the watchful eye of Mother Church.
    It may even be possible that this diverse collections of worldly
churches, through an enligthened ecumenical movement emerging at "dawn",
could develop into a single larger unified church with pan-Imperium
influence.

    Like I said at the top, this is based on opinion (I got a D+ in Canon
101). If anyone likes the idea and they have a good grasp of Canon, I'd
appreciate any details they could supply to flesh out the "Unified Church of
the Celestial Sphere" (GUCCS)

Ciao Bella,
/Justin Durkan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:07:47 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155

> So You are saying that when US next time bombs Iraq they can (and should be
> allowed)  defend their country by destroying whole New York or some other
> big city in USA with bioweapons.
> 
> Jyrki Paajanen


Actually, YES.  War is a gentleman's aggreement to blown the shit out of
each other to the max extent possible. 

And if they bio NYC Bahghad fries.

Contrary to idealism, _might_ does make right because there is no other
arbiter or enforcer.  To ignore that simple fact is to ignore history
and endage your populace.  Governments know this, and it is why most
behave the way they do.

I don't like this either, but it is the way things are.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:46:28 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Anders Backman wrote:

> OK, astronomers come up with atheory for galaxy formation. Then they test
> it versus known physical laws such and find that their galaxies should blow
> apart.
> They could:
> 
> 1) Think that perhaps their galaxy formation, estimate of galactic mass etc
> is in err
> 
> 2) Invent a new kind of mass that doesn't interact trough light and doesn't
> correspond to anything detected that will save their theories. They dub
> this new type of mass as dark matter (no, dark matter isn't brown dwarfs,
> interstellar hydrogen etc - it doesn't interact with light at all, neither
> for observation nor heating/heat transfer.

This is a gross misunderstanding on your part. Dark matter is just a name
for some form of matter (ie. mass) that has to be in galaksies to explain
their movement and interaction. What it is is not known, but it could be
brown dwarfs, black holes, interstellar gas, planets, neutrinos with mass,
other exotic partikles yet to be discovered, or something totally
different. Why do you say that it dosen't interact with light at all? Do
you have any references to this?

> Number 2 is IMO not allowed when doing science, you're not allowed to
> invent unobservable phenomena to save an experimantally unsound theory.

Totally agree, but that is not what has happened here. The astronomers has
just plainly postulated that there has to be more matter present in
galaxies than what we so far has observed, this matter is not yet
observable and is therefor dim/dark, hence dark matter.

> This is off-topic so I'll shut my mouth about this unless someone want to
> continue this on e-mail.
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:00:31 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >Hey Stephen,
> >
> >Saw a report on the same thing on CNN channel on my desktop.  According to
> >the report, it's a small globular galaxy believed to have a large amount of
> >dark matter.
> >
> >Do you want I should clip it and send it to you?
> >
> >Richard
> >cybernot@gte.net
> 
> BTW Dark matter is the pro astronomers name for handwave. Whenever
> something like galactic spin rates, galactic group sizes, galactic
> formation doesn't fit physics astronomers put a ltlle dark matter here and
> there to make it fit. As there generally is more dark matter than normal
> one in a typical astronomer conjured galaxy I'd say large scale astronomy
> is one of the weakest sciences around.
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se


Yep.  This is the same way that the neutrino was discovered.  
IIRC it was basically conceived to fill the hole in spin (?) for beta
decay.  Sometimes handwaving works.

- -Dan

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:14:32 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

>This is a gross misunderstanding on your part. Dark matter is just a name
>for some form of matter (ie. mass) that has to be in galaksies to explain
>their movement and interaction. What it is is not known, but it could be
>brown dwarfs, black holes, interstellar gas, planets, neutrinos with mass,
>other exotic partikles yet to be discovered, or something totally
>different. Why do you say that it dosen't interact with light at all? Do
>you have any references to this?

Galactic formation simulations treat it as totally transperant to all
radiation and without temperature, to me that rules out all of "brown
dwarfs, black holes, interstellar gas, planets, neutrinos with mass,other
exotic partikles yet to be discovered" but "neutrinos with mass or other
exotic partikles yet to be discovered".
As the last two are just fancy namnes for nondetectable stuff at least in
the case of galaxy simulation astronomers what I originally said holds,
maybe other astronomers have a different meaning to the tem which is just
as bad science: undefined terms.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:10:58 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155

> So You are saying that when US next time bombs Iraq they can (and should be
> allowed)  defend their country by destroying whole New York or some other
> big city in USA with bioweapons.
> 
> Jyrki Paajanen


That would be ...unwise.


- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:12:57 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

>In Germany, we were told in basic just to say "No!". Some orders may 
>not be followed no matter what! Violations of the Geneva Convention, 
>f.e.! (If you do, you're screwed, no matter if you got the order in 
>writing)
>*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*

And I suggest that you make your own decision long before you ever get 
to the point of having to make the decision as to obey or disobey an 
order.  I had that firmly established in my mind and heart before even 
taking my oath of office as an Officer of Marines.  I was ready to 
disobey per my conscience/beliefs regardless of the consecquences so 
that I would not have to try to make that decision under duress.

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #181
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 17 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 182



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Nuking Japan
Re: Relieved of Duty!
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread) -Reply
Santry and Cordova
Re: Nuking Japan
Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Nuking Japan -Reply
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: War Crimes
Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: World War II (Off Topic)
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
My FF&S spreadsheet...
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Warfare (and traveller)
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Space Travel as related to Terran Sea Crossings
Re: Core Data
Monkeying around....
Re: Nuking Japan
memory plastics
Re: Getting Stoned

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:51:00 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

In a message dated 2/14/98 17:22:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, johnl@vnet.net
writes:

<< All the warring parties felt that attacking civilian targets was a
 legitimate use of strategic air power. The Germans did it, as did the
 British and Americans. >>

Is anyone aware of how the city-bombing campaigns actually got started?

In 1940, when the Luftwaffe started the Battle of Britain, they concentrated
on purely military targets...in this case the RAF airfields and radar
stations.  Most of these installations were in very sparsely-settled areas or
in areas with low population densities.  Then after one raid, a damaged German
bomber (who's pilot was unsure of his exact position) had to jettison his load
to stay in the air.  Since he was lost, and blackout was in effect, he didn't
realize he was violating Goerring's express orders....he was over London at
the time.  The very next night, RAF Bomber Command launched it's first raid on
Berlin.  Hitler, of course, was furious and immediately ordered the Luftwaffe
to begin bombing cities in England to the detriment of all other targets.

This saved England actually...the RAF was very nearly destroyed at that time
and probably would have ceased organized resistance w/in 2 weeks.  The change
in targeting gave them time to rebuild and reorganize.

A curious thing though...if the bomber had not dropped it's load and simply
crashed, the damage would have been greater...but no one would have bombed
cities over it.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:18:39 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Relieved of Duty!

In a message dated 2/15/98 18:31:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, GDWGAMES@aol.com
writes:

<< For those who want a really great read in this general subject area, try
_The
 Caine Mutiny._
 
 Watch the movie if you like, but the book is a much better discussion of the
 problems involved with this whole subject, from the POV of a WWII
 Destroyer/Minesweeper crew.
 
 Extra points for the movie: Name the actor who plays the bad guy (Hint: It is
 NOT Humphrey Bogart).
 
 Loren Wiseman
 
  >>

It's Fred Mcmurray...also known as the Son of Flubber?

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:52:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

I still think Herr hitler would have lost patienice and bombed the cities
eventually. Rotterdam and Warsaw are the precedents.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:00:25 -0700
From: Katja Herrendoerfer <KHerrend@stlgate.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread) -Reply

Please help me!!
I had to subscribe to this mailing list for a class, but now would like to
UNSUBSCRIBE but I forgot how to do that.  

kherrend@stlgate.byu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:57:23 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Santry and Cordova

Volker A. Greimann writes:
>According to M:0, Santry is located at 1736, and Cordova at 1836...but
>some say this is not right... Any comments anyone?
I am the originator of the textual references to Santry and Cordova in M0.
My text indicates that Santry and Cordova are a few jumps apart. However in
FS someone put them (a) right next to each other, and (b) within the
Chestine Kingdom (?). As the M0 book predates the FS book I consider FS to
be in error. (Although some could argue that it is later, therefore
corrects M0.)
     I had no specific location in mind when I wrote the bit for M0. Just
some simple astrography. Since then, at someone's request, I've been look
at Core sector with the idea of finding a more appropriate place for them
in agreement with the published text. Currently I'm favouring the Jump-1
main in the bottom of the Cemplas and Chant subsectors. With Santry at 1328
(currently Sar), and Cordova at 1730 (currently Laik Girkki). More or less
all of the main in Cemplas is Santrian (except 1630), and in Chant is
Cordovian.
     This fits the texts where the worlds are a few jumps apart. It has
Cordova on the end nearest the Imperium. The Pop digits from FS make for a
hopeless cluster, though. To gel with a Pocket Empire that is any use at
all they either have to be changed, or assumed that these are after heavy
"pacification". [The additional unpublished material I have on
Santry/Cordova indicates there was at least one planetary wipeout
bombardment (for you relativistic rock fans) which, of course, each side
blames the other for.]
     One alternative I am considering is Santry as 1531 (currently Emsha
I), but that this is no longer the capital of the Santrian Empire. A number
of other worlds and some more detailed astrography are mentioned in the
unpublished material. I keep meaning to devote some time into editing the
FS data into something that fits with this material. If there is a general
degree of interest, I might be able to move some things forward.
     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:06:29 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

In a message dated 2/17/98 9:58:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< I still think Herr hitler would have lost patienice and bombed the cities
 eventually. Rotterdam and Warsaw are the precedents. >>

I disagree...there is a large amount of convincing evidence that Hitler truly
wanted a negotiated settlement w/ England...there was also a large faction of
English nobility who apparently wanted an alliance w/ the Nazis (Prince
Edward??)  In my view, indiscrimate bombing of civilian targets would have
made that impossible. Also, a point I forgot to bring up is that most likely
at the time Hitler issued the targeting order, he probably didn't know London
had been bombed, even accidently, or else it was simply Allied propaganda
justifying the RAF raids...thats how he'd have done it (remember the radio
station at Gliewicz??)

Ed

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:23:20 -0700
From: Katja Herrendoerfer <KHerrend@stlgate.byu.edu>
Subject: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

I am sick of these mails.  I don't need the info. It was just a class project.
HELP ME UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE


kherrend@stlgate.byu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:25:00 -0700
From: Katja Herrendoerfer <KHerrend@stlgate.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan -Reply

SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST>  I REALLY
DON:T NEED THE INFO GIVEN AND AM SICK OF GETTING MAILS!!

Please be so kind as to tell me- ANYONE -  how to unsubscribe from this
mailing list

kherrend@stlgate.byu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 18:26 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

In-Reply-To: <3c5a2517.34e885d9@aol.com>

> << Finally, a destroyer could launch bacterial
>  aerosols into the atmosphere, against which non-Solomani populations would
>  have no resistance and succumb to in short order. >> 
>  
> All kidding aside, this is indeed one often overlooked possibility.  Has this
> ever been considered?  Or is it even technologically feasable?

Easily possible for the Solomani (medical TL16, C.1110).

One of the plots in my campaign (which I borrowed slightly from a scenario in 
Challenge) involved a plan by high-ranking, and slightly over-zealous, Solomani 
officers to release a geneered virus on the liberated worlds to cleanse them of 
any impure contamination...

They used two different viri, tailored to only affect non-Solomani. Infection 
by either one produces flu-like symptoms, infection by both kills within 48 
hours. The viri were to be released on different worlds, near A starports. That 
way, they would rapidly spread from world to world, and by the time people 
started dying millions would be infected by one or the other.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 18:25 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: War Crimes

In-Reply-To: <34E88A20.38FC@edgenet.net>

Daniel,

> > > I am worried about those 3000 gallons of liquid anthrax though.
> > 
> > IKWYM...but what can you do about it? 
>  
> Well, there is an alternative.  If you can confine the crap and burn it
> at very high temps you could destroy it.  Hit the factory with a
> penetrator/incendiary and incinerate the stuff along with the indises of
> the factory.  Unfortunately, I doubt that theis is a "refined"
> technique.  Meaning I bet no one has ever done it before, even
> experimentally.

That's one of those methods that *might* work, *if you're lucky.* 
Unfortunately, it must work *100%*. As others have said, nuking would do 
it, but it wouldn't be the most popular decision ever made...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:40:49 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155

deadeye@ebicom.net writes:

>> So You are saying that when US next time bombs Iraq they can (and should be
>> allowed)  defend their country by destroying whole New York or some other
>> big city in USA with bioweapons.
>> 
>> Jyrki Paajanen

   Try comparisons between things that can be compared to each other next
time.  Trying to equate the US attacks on Japan with a hypothetical attack
by the Iraqis on the US just doesn't work on *multiple* levels.

>War is a gentleman's aggreement to blown the shit out of
>each other to the max extent possible. 

   War has no rules, save perhaps being worried what your neighbors will
think of you.

>>And if they bio NYC Bahghad fries.

   Mostly likely scenario?  Sadaam is hunted down like a dog and executed,
along with the entire leadership of Iraq.  Iraq is then partioned into
several other countries (the Kurds finally get that homeland they wanted,
along with the Assyrians, Shiites, etc.), and if the Iraqi people are lucky,
the US will stop just short destorying every city in the country with a
population over 10,000...and the laser guided muntions would be put in
storage for this occasion.

   Harold's personal preference for additional punishment: all of the former
Iraq's oil receipts for the next century go to the survivors of NYC and
their families.

>Contrary to idealism, _might_ does make right because there is no other
>arbiter or enforcer.  To ignore that simple fact is to ignore history
>and endage your populace.  Governments know this, and it is why most
>behave the way they do.

   I'm afraid I have to agree.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:57:25 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

>Somebody asked about huge passenger ships.


'Twas I.


>Last night I did a rough QSDS1.5 ...


[One snip]


>Operating expenses (Based on 35 jumps/year and 90% utilization):
>
>Crew salaries:           66,315,000     (0.7%)
>Crew life support:      154,070,000     (1.7%)
>Passenger life supp.: 3,654,000,000     (39.9%)
>Maintenance:             78,400,000     (0.9%)
>Fuel (At Cr300/T):      315,000,000     (3.4%)
>Payments & profit:    4,900,000,000     (53.4%)
>-------------------------------
>                      9,167,785,000     (100%)


[Two snips]


Okay, so this is based on surface-to-surface, Jump-1 travel, correct? What
is the profit margin you are figuring (just curious)?


>Assuming the ship makes 35 jumps per year and is 90% full on the average,
>it will carry 1,827,000 passengers each year. Dividing that up into the
>yearly expenses will give you a cost of a Mid Passage of Cr 5,018.


[Three snips]

Okay, this is where things start to get tricky. The thing that generated
this post (besides the nearly hysterical desire to talk about something
Traveller as opposed to CE/BCE/AD/BC/AM/PM/PMS/QED/blah blah blah religion
blah blah blah) was your post on passenger traffic levels. Would most
routes have enough traffic on them to actually warrant one of these
passenger liners? At least in Regina's case, this doesn't seem to be so.
With the nubers you posited, I don't think you could get a 90% occupancy on
one of these liners in the Regina region -- the traffic levels simply don't
allow it. Of course, all of the numbers are squishy, but I thought they
were pretty good estimates.

So passenger liners in the 300,000+ ton range are restricted to routes
between really high pop (9+) worlds within jump-1 of each other? Assuming
the Regina hub is relatively average in the Imperium (is it? I haven't
looked at the Imperium in that closely), that would make big liners pretty
rare, even given the economy of scale. Would you agree?

So the really big ones would be rare -- I suppose there is an intermediate
range between the Type R and the really big ships that would be the best
option. Hmm.


>Note that passenger life support is far too expensive IMO. If you reduce
>them to something reasonable you can easily shave another Cr1000 off the
>price. Also, maintenance, bank payments and profit is based on a ship
>price that assumes the ship is a one off. If it is part of a class of
>ship and gets, say, 20% discount, you can reduce the price of a ticket
>by another Cr500.


[A dollar!]

Okay, so let's be optimistic and say a mid passage costs Cr 3,500. Round
trip that's 7,000 Cr -- still a huge chunk of change for the average person
(at $3=1Cr, it's a trip *I* certainly couldn't afford without saving for
several years). Does anyone know what it costs to get round-trip tickets on
the QE2? Or any modern trans-Atlantic passenger liner, for that matter? I'm
just trying to get a feel for how big a deal jump travel is for the average
person in the Imperium.

I am getting the impression that it is big deal. :-)

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:57:44 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: World War II (Off Topic)

>
>>how right you are. not many people new that little fact.  
>>
>>it is also a little known fact Japan had been trying to surrender 
>>with only one condition.  that ensuring the safety of the office of 
>>the Emperor.  if the US had agreed to that the war would have ended 
>>much, much sooner with out so many needless deaths.
>
>IIRC the office remained but not the divinity, so it appears there >was 
a condition in the surrender.
>

And interestingly enough, the Emporer died only a few (6?) years ago!  I 
guess when you give up divinity then eventually you die too.

B-|

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:12:14 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

Why would you have 58,000 people going from one world to another as a 
regular course of events?  I can't think of reasons.  Thoughts?  

>
>The figures I came up with was: Price of ship (without discount): 
>MCr78,400; crew: 2000; passengers: 58,000 (Mid passengers only).
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:27:53 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: My FF&S spreadsheet...

I'm putting the last touches on my spreadsheet, to bring it to version 2.1
(I'll post it as soon as my ISPs completes its switch of web servers).

This is a "last call" for bug fixes and enhancement requests - I'm going to
be unable to work on the spreadsheet for a while, so I'd like to try and get
everything working to most everyone's satisfaction.

The following bugs/features have been fixed/added:
    EXCEL ONLY: Added the SaveDesign and LoadDesign macros, to save the ship
in a "lighter" text format, to conserve disk space. SaveDesign is called by
ctrl+s, LoadDesign is called by ctrl+l.
    Fixed PA and Meson damage values based on FFS2 errata.
    Fixed backup fuel purification plants.
    Fixed fuel cost on economics page.
    Fixed Screen crew count - wasn't including damper turrets.
    Fixed crew totals - wasn't including screens.
    Fixed drive and magzine problems on missile sheet 2.
    Fixed atmospheric speeds.
    Changed hull pricing again (at Bruce Macintosh's request). Hull paint
credits are based on percentages, as beforebut the costs for military black
and ultrablack are back to the original method - based on hull area and a
fixed cost.
    Changed the TLSet macro code to be more efficient. Thanks to "Simon" for
sending me the new code.
    Split code into Excel and Quattro Pro versions for better macro support.

If anyone is aware of more bugs, or has a feature request - please email
them to me at igor@ames.net so that I can work on it in the next day or two
and then put it to rest for a while.

As soon as 2.1 is ready, I'll notify the list.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:02 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

Katja Herrendoerfer wrote:

> I am sick of these mails.  I don't need the info. It was just a class project.
> HELP ME UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE
>
> kherrend@stlgate.byu.edu

Sorry...we do get kinda....intense sometimes.

Send a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM"  with "unsubscribe traveller" in
the body of the message (don't include the quotation marks).

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:29:19 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

At 12:57 17/02/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>it will carry 1,827,000 passengers each year. Dividing that up into the
>>yearly expenses will give you a cost of a Mid Passage of Cr 5,018.

   It is fairly easy to get the total number of passengers, all you do is
have the Imperial Military forces muster out 304,500 people per year who
are at least 6 jump ones away from their homeworld.  If they all had TAS
they would be able to afford the six trips within a year.  Mind you a lot
of them might choose to arrange accidents for the crew, in order to get
a working passage. :-)


mailto:Cleon-the-Mad@dial.pipex.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:58:19 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net> wrote:

>The French, sadly, will never be fully integrated with anybody except
>themselves.

You're reminding me of the 'Yes Minister' sketch when the UK Civil Service
admit that the real reason for a British Nuclear Deterent is because of the
French.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:54:02 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Warfare (and traveller)

Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> wrote:

>I've always assumed that rock-throwing wasn't practiced by mutual
>agreement between (major) combatants. It maps well to cold war
>conflicts this century.  The idea is to stay just shy of the cutoff
>that will escalate the war as a whole to the point where all the
>worlds on the front are totally destroyed.

<on the use of mass drivers (ie rocks) against civilian targets, paraphrased>

"Mass Drivers? They have been outlawed by every civilised race."
"These are uncivilised times"
"But we have treaties..."
"Ink on paper..."

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:46:49 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

At 11:12 17/02/98 PST, you wrote:
>Why would you have 58,000 people going from one world to another as a 
>regular course of events?  I can't think of reasons.  Thoughts?  
>
Pilgrimages, Migrant Workers, Gypsies, Package Tourists, Megacorporation
Outings, Imigrants, Honey Moons, Invasion Force/Crusade.

 I would want darn good stewards on a ship of this class.  This mid passage
thing seems like a means to get the ship more profitable.  If it were not
mid passengers then you would need to find 29,000 passengers paying the 
usual rate 10,000 and still be better off than 5018cr per ticket.  The only
problem comes with filling the ship - 3625 Stewards level 8 would probably
do this, gaining a minimum of 8 passengers per steward, but I do not know if
this old rule was cumulative.



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:07:15 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Space Travel as related to Terran Sea Crossings

Someone was mentioning the QE2 and other ships, I wanted to relate a campaign construction idea I had heard:

Space Travel, and how it affects your campaign, can be easily related (at least for example purposes) to eras in Earth history - in particular, how hard it was to cross the Atlantic in that era. This will tell you something about why people travel, how common travel is, etc.

Prehistory: Perhaps a handful of people have made the crossing, their exploits lost in myth and legend. No one would know how to deliberately begin such an undertaking, and it is generally believed to be impossible.

16th century and before: Very dangerous, expect to lose entire ships with regularity, it will be a rare vessel that makes the crossing without fatalities. Say your farewells, even if things go perfectly it will be a long time before you see your loved ones again. Terrible conditions during the voyage. Expect, if successful, that your voyage will be newsworthy throughout your civilization. Result: Generally only governments take the risk of the voyage. Few will agree to do it twice, or even once, and those who make the journey may well be inclined not to come back.

17th to 18th Century: Hazards still exist, travel is not to be taken lightly but is safe enough that people do it for profit. Still, it is an uncommon and somewhat special person who makes the trip regularly, for the most part due to the conditions during the voyage - conditions that wealth will have little effect upon. Result: Still it will be governments in charge of or at least involved with most voyages. A class of people who make a living at making the crossing emerges as an elite group.

19th Century (especially later) to early 20th Century: The trip is safe, but long. Improvements in the way travel is done make wealth a useful thing for improving conditions, therefore wealthy travellers become some of the prime passengers on these voyages. While making the crossing may still be a once in a lifetime adventure for most, it has ceased to be a noteworthy event. Results: Big businesses take over the ships that make the voyage, though there will be private craft (and even personal craft) that make the trip. Governments will start to codify regulations for the safety of those making the voyage.

Mid-Twentieth Century to Late Twentieth Century: The hazard factor of the voyage has dropped to nearly zero. Common people make the trip in comfort, and many are so accustomed to the trip that they do not consider it a disruption to undertake it. Procedures are so well established that the trip can be made with little or no planning (presenting oneself at a transport terminal and buying a ticket). Results: Plans (financial, military, or clandestine) with elements occuring at either end of the voyage are commonplace. Businesses cease to consider themselves as being primarily focused at one end of the voyage or the other. The occaisional disaster, though statistically insignificant, is given elevated notice by the media and the populace.


Use for Traveller? Decide which era your universe's star flight compares to for ease, safety, etc. Is travelling from one world to another like hopping Pan Am, boarding the liner Olympia, or like signing the crew roster of the Santa Maria? This willl also give you a feel for how likely the "average" citizen is to have travelled in space, and how final a decision like joining a new colony would be.


Just some thoughts...

Walt Smith
- ---------------------------------
"No, that's not an alien life form, it's my lunch..."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:52:36 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Core Data

 "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de> wrote:

>According to M:0, Santry is located at 1736, and Cordova at 1836...but
>some say this is not right... Any comments anyone?

FS data definitely gives the wrong place for them! This puts them right on
the border of the Chanestin Kingdom, which would have absorbed them. Not to
mention that the Imperium rolls over Keshi in Y2, and by Y0 the Imperium
was involved in using Cordova to annexe Santry. The description in the text
on p24 suggests that S and C are at least three J2's apart. I would suggest
moving them to Cluster around 1322 or maybe 1233.

I talked to Jo Grant (who wrote the stuff on the Cluster), who said that FS
placed them wrong and he would have to look for a new location for them.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:48:36 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Monkeying around....

Semo wrote:

>DG>>	Say, in a briefcase carried onto a crowded jumbo jet flying from
>>>New York
>>>to London ...?
>>
>SDM>Will you stop *monkeying* around with this topic. Playing with these
>things
>>could make the Doomsday clock strike *12*...
>
>Yes, I second the motion, *willis* you please stop?

Yes, this could *terry* much be the *Pitt*s if we go on discussing it.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:13:42 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

All true points...., but the man WAS insane. I do believe that he would have
got tired of waiting for the English to negotiate, and did something stupid
out of frustration.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:27:00
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: memory plastics

IIRC, the Prison Planet adventure had something about items made of special
"memory" plastics. Can someone please send details on these (TL, cost)?

I'm working on a new Technician career for T4, and would like to add some
nifty tools to give out as material benefits.

BTW, if you want to suggest something...

TIA,


__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 20:29 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

In-Reply-To: <199802171236.HAA04047@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

Eris,

> >I doubt it, Eris.  I'm pretty sure that there is enough bone behind the
> >eye socket to stop or deflect a .22LR.  Thanks for playing, though ;)
>  
> Pinball, James, pinball!  A bounce here, a bounce there, and there's no
> telling what might happen. ;-> It *would* take a lucky shot. Say, have you
> heard the one about the bullet that penetrated a guy's skull, traveled
> *around* his brain and exited the other side?

...or the guy who was shot right in the centre of his forehead, and the slug 
passed safely between the hemispheres of his brain?

...or the suicidal guy who shot himself in the head, lobotomised himself, 
and woke up feeling happier?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #182
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 17 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 183



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
thanks Marc
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: Total War...
Where is the Corrected QSDS?
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)
Re: Minor race homeworlds
Re: Monkeying around....
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: Space Travel as related to Terran Sea Crossings
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: MT Errata
"Dress Me Up" already exists - here's a dataset
Human minor race ideas
[T98#178] Trash Can Punch
Traveller Art
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: memory plastics
A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)
Re: Nuking Japan
CD ROM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:36:06 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

I always thought that the 10,000/8000 Cr High/Middle split was a little
strange. What does the board think of the old 1st/2nd/steerage class system
(ala Titanic). From what I read/heard/sort of remember, the costs were (in
1912 US dollars) were; 1st class: about $4000 round trip!, 2nd; about 1/3 to a
1/4 of that, and steerage was maybe a hundred or two tops. Granted this ship
was MUCH more expensive than usual, but in Traveller terms, what about
lowering middle passage costs , and introducing a 2000 Cr steerage class? It
is safer than cold sleep, and I bet for a one jump (1 week) journey, one could
design smaller accomodations than the double compartment (maybe a quad, with
bunk beds?). I also think that steerage would need less stewards. This would
make large liners more profitable for short one jump runs, and from what I
remember the immmigrant steerage tickets were the shipping lines "bread and
butter". The more "traditional" Traveller designs appear to be better suited
to long multijump runs where the passengers would more likely to be wealthy,
and want high passage luxuries and more space (and these NPC's would usually
make more interesting characters than the steerage class proles). A good
adventure nugget could be a ship violating Imperial board of Trade regulations
by exceeding maximum passenger levels (ie., selling steerage tickets on
multijump voyages).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:45:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Don Stark <stark@glacier.nrlssc.navy.mil>
Subject: thanks Marc

Well I just received my package of assorted traveller artifacts from 
Marc -- WAY COOL!!!! Thanks Marc.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                |                                   |
Don Stark                       |           ,/7_                    |
                                |          /   _`,                  |
Naval Research Lab, Code 7322   |         (.)\) \|_                 |
Bay St. Louis, MS 39529         |          0    /^~'                |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
e-mail: stark@nrlssc.navy.mil   |                                   |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
Phone: (228) 688-4151 work      |              ' )( `               |
       (228) 688-4759 fax       |   ~~~~~~~~~~~''  ``~~~~~~~~~~~~   |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:11:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

All of this talk of prices of passage ignores one fundamental
issue.  The price of anything is independant of the cost.  The
price depends on the market.  Prices will vary depending on how
many people want to go to the destination and how many ships make
the trip.  Prices along a Jump 1 main will probably be lower while
prices for tickets to a world at the end of a J-4 leg may be
much higher.  If the J-4 world is a highly desirable destination,
though, enough ships may make the trip that the price may come
down.  The only real effect price has is it sets a minimum.  In
a highly efficient market where ships can quickly change routes
to meet demand, the price will generally be equal to the cost
plus some reasonable return on investment (whatever the general
return on investment is).  This ignores the effects of any
mnoopolies or non-market trade restrictrions.  It would be
useful to know the costs involved with the various passages as
well as the next most profitable use of the space (cargo, mail,
etc...) for comparison.  It would also be useful to discuss the
various passenger lines and where they typically go.  Prices
for passage where big commercial lines run will be lower than
prices to other systems.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:39:52 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Total War...

Speaking of total war, how many folks out there would be interested in
details on a well developed Rebellion campaign in 1118?  I've been doing
this and was wondering.  Please reply to 

deadeye@ebicom.net

Just want to see interest.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:30:27 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Where is the Corrected QSDS?

I've lost the URL for the corrected version of QSDS.  Could someone please
post it?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:40:27 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>but [Hitler] WAS insane. I do believe that he would have got tired of waiting 
>for the English to negotiate, and did something stupid out of frustration.

Like attack Russia?



wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:36:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Dom wrote:

> At 11:12 17/02/98 PST, you wrote:
> >Why would you have 58,000 people going from one world to another as a 
> >regular course of events?  I can't think of reasons.  Thoughts?  
> >
> Pilgrimages, Migrant Workers, Gypsies, Package Tourists, Megacorporation
> Outings, Imigrants, Honey Moons, Invasion Force/Crusade.
> 
>  I would want darn good stewards on a ship of this class.  This mid passage
> thing seems like a means to get the ship more profitable.  If it were not
> mid passengers then you would need to find 29,000 passengers paying the 
> usual rate 10,000 and still be better off than 5018cr per ticket.  The only
> problem comes with filling the ship - 3625 Stewards level 8 would probably
> do this, gaining a minimum of 8 passengers per steward, but I do not know if
> this old rule was cumulative.

Well, what level of staffing is there on the QE2 or the average cruise
ship? That, I think, would be the most valid model to use here. IMHO the 8
High passage/steward is for relatively small ships.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:38:17 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

[snip neat discussion about rocks etc.]

I know I'm chiming in late, but I thought I'd present my own picture of
mining in Glisten asteroid belt;

There are several medium sized (2000-5000 ton) processing stations in orbit
just inside the outer asteroid belt (this is the ground for smaller belters
to make money.  the larger corporations use the inner belt - where the main
starport and "mainworld" is - in a larger scale mining method).

Being in a slightly smaller orbit, the stations are a bit faster than the
asteroids in their revolutions.  This allows miners along the belt to store
up ore and deliver it to the closest station when it gets relatively close.

The station itself is mostly a fusion smelting facility.  Ore is processed
in the central section - also the location of a "company store" to resupply
the miners - at a premium of course.  The refined "ingots" are then
packaged for delivery by the 1/2 kilometer mass driver.  Note that the mass
driver can use gravitic technology rather than electromagnetic, to allow
nonferrous materials being 'shot'.

The Mass driver is paired with an identical device pointed in the opposite
direction.  IF the station propelled a 50 ton ingot in one direction the
corresponding force would change it's desirable orbit significantly.  Each
ingot is equipped with a beacon to enable its capture at the other end and
the ballistic trajectory is carefully designed to take advantage or orbital
braking as it nears Glisten Habitat - the marketplace to which these goods
are being delivered.

The ingot is fired at as high a velocity as possible.  There is no need to
limit acceleration with no passengers.  Simultaneously an ingot of "slag"
material is launched outwards, withits own beacon to aid in navigation.
These waste ingots are rarely heard from again.

Travel time is generally measured in months - 18 - 24 in general.

To answer the question, yes, this can result in a serious danger to the
fragile outer space habitats in the Glisten system.  Many safety checks are
made by experienced professionals and complex computers before every shot,
and Glisten Mining assures the public that no mishaps could possibly occur
;).

[Gee, doesn't that sound like an adventure hook?]

Belters mine the asteroids, extracting raw ore and delivering it in low
acceleration "buggys" of 200 to 1000 tons.  These craft are mostly cargo
hold, with a small pressurized living area.  Belters spend most of their
time outside in their vacc suits running mining equipment.  Explosives
would be rarely used since it would put an unwanted vector on the asteroid
in question.  Mostly the techniques are strictly drilling and melting the
materials into movable chuncks.  One very useful invention is the
"minithruster" which allows a miner to move a cargo-bay sized chunck of
rock to his or her ship at a tiny fraction of a gee.  Many mishaps have
been the result of a piece of rock's mass being underestimated by a
careless miner.

Another technique is to simply collect the dust and debris found in any
belt.  This is usually done by specialized craft and can be quite
profitable.

Note that minig using a seeker is really just prospecting.  Seekers have
jump drives and are completely unable to compete with local vessels under
the same circumstances.  Although seekers will bring back samples, the
cargo bay is usually filled with instruments and equipment for collecting
and marking finds.  An independent may then rent space in a large cargo
ship to transport a portable minig setup similar to the above so that he is
eventually transporting nothing but completely refined minerals to the
nearest market.  More likely the prospector will sell his or her claim to
one of the large or medium sized mining companies for a share in the
profits.

Enough!

Pete



Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree! Can't I have leftover Groat instead?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:08:03 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Joseph Lockett wrote:
> [snip]
>
> >Anybody have some heretical-canon ideas on who the Syleans are?
>
> ... the Sayat.  _Obviously_.  After escaping from Napoleonic France, a
> large task force of time-travelling Sayat agents found themselves stranded
> on some rathole of a planet in the late First Empire, and set about
> "improving" the local population.

So, can we then assume that Syleans have a traditional inclination against
bathing and hygiene (which keeps their medical TL from advancing too quickly)?
What about fondness for cheese, snails and wine?  And not letting allies fly
over their territory?

>  They disguised themselves from the
> authorities by dropping all the vowels out of their ethnonym (Sayat > Syt),
> and due to orthographic sloppiness, the cross-bar on the "t" dropped after
> several centuries and was read as "l".

Doesn't  this mean that "Sylea" should be pronounced "Silly?"  And thus, this
world is home for Traveller: The Silly Era?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:37:13 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Monkeying around....

>>SDM>Will you stop *monkeying* around with this topic. Playing with these
>>things
>>>could make the Doomsday clock strike *12*...
>>
>>Yes, I second the motion, *willis* you please stop?
>
>Yes, this could *terry* much be the *Pitt*s if we go on discussing it.

All this talk is getting me nervous.  Could you please *stowe* it?

Thanks.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:25:00 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

>Why would you have 58,000 people going from one world to another as a
>regular course of events?  I can't think of reasons.  Thoughts?

The same reason they did so in the 18th century and before (and after for
that matter); Business & Leisure.

Economic opportunity, consultation, scientific conferences, curiosity,
visiting family, emigration to new job markets, etc. etc.  The number of
people desiring and capable of affording travel should be dependent on the
population of the source planet.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree! Can't I have leftover Groat instead?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:38:40 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Space Travel as related to Terran Sea Crossings

"Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> writes:
>
>Prehistory: Perhaps a handful of people have made the crossing, their
>exploits lost in myth and legend. 
>
>No one would know how to deliberately begin such an undertaking, and it
>is generally believed to be 
>
>impossible.
>
>16th century and before: Very dangerous, expect to lose entire ships with
regularity, it will be a rare >vessel that makes the crossing without
fatalities. Say your farewells, even if things go perfectly it will >be a
long time before you see your loved ones again. Terrible conditions during
the voyage. Expect, if >successful, that your voyage will be newsworthy
throughout your civilization. Result: Generally only >governments take the
risk of the voyage. Few will agree to do it twice, or even once, and those
who make >the journey may well be inclined not to come back.

Not necessarily.  Look at the Polynesians, for example. Or the trade
between India and the Fertile Crescent. Phoenecians to Britain, Chinese in
the Pacific, Norse all over the place...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:28:20 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

That's a good one :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:56:40 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: MT Errata

"Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" wrote:
> If I remember correctly, there was a sheet of errata packed in with
> the MT boxed set (Player's Manual, Ref's Manual, Imp. Encyclopedia,
> Spinward Map)  Does anyone have this errata or any errata for MT?
>
> I am curious about the skill "combat rifleman". It is only available
> through "Special Combat" which is fairly rare, even for the military
> careers. I would think that an Army or Marine character would have a
> much better chance of getting "combat rifleman".
<snip>

MT Errata and Clarifications: September 1, 1990 says:
> Page 51, Military Occupational Speciality Table (Correction):
> Die roll 2 under Infantry, Commando, and Ship's Troops should be
> Combat Rifleman skill, not Gun Combat.

Regards PLST
email: ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk
web    http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen



___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:42:30 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: "Dress Me Up" already exists - here's a dataset

>Believe it or not, this already exists!
Coincidentally enough, I've been working recently on a dataset for the KiSS
system for my Traveller character. It is far from complete, but as the
topic has come up I've posted the current work in progress. Those into
uniforms can have a ball with suggestions....

You can get the KiSS program for a variety of platforms from:
http://otakuworld.com/kiss/

You can upload my dataset from
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/elise.lzh.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:53:27 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Human minor race ideas

In Challenge # 39 the section on the Hinterworlds one of the major players
in the region is the Cytrialin Unity, the center of which is Alike: 
Hinterworlds 3003 A53898A-D

The Cytrialin Unity is run by the Lamura who are a dual species culture
"Entwined culturally, and to some degree biologically"  One species is the
human minor race known as the Lamura Teg, the other species, the Lamura
Gav are described as small and spidery-legged. 

Their home world is described both hostile and not native to either of
them (with a very thin atmosphere this makes good sense).  Ever since I
read Poul Anderson's novel _The People of the Wind_ I've loved the idea of
dual species cultures, so the Lamura sound pretty cool. 

Other than a bit about their religion and the fact that they control 58
worlds nothing else is said about them.  Since folks are talking about
human minor races, I thought it might be fun to see what we can come up
with about these folks.  I'll post my ideas in a few days, maybe other
people here can come up with their own ideas and we can share. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:01:50 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#178] Trash Can Punch

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:52:13 -0500, "Paul D. Owensby"
<pauld@athens.net> wrote (in response to me):

>>So, 55 gal. of "stuff", roughly 9% of it C2H5OH.  I get 18 proof
>>from that; IIRC, wine is typically 12% or 24 proof.  This isn't
>>very potent; "damp" sites in my medievalist organization wouldn't
>>have any problem with something like this. (A "damp" site allows
>>beer, wine, and mead, but nothing stronger).

>>I wouldn't have more than one of these if I were driving within
>>                                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>about 24hrs (personal policy), but otherwise, I'd have no problem
>>with it - since I always do alcohol in moderation anyway
>>(personal policy).

>Yeah, I think one 55-gallon drum of booze in a 24-hour period is 
>enough for anyone :)

<grin> Yah, well, that's _not_ exactly what I meant. <chuckle>
5.5 ounces is more like it...

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:13:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Traveller Art

Can I just commendate Vanya (Danny) for adding a link to Mike Linsenmayer's
pages, and the great art he's done on a Traveller them to the 'not-the-IG
website'. Thanks - looks great.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:59:49 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

Katja Herrendoerfer, a student at BYU writes:

>I am sick of these mails.  I don't need the info. It was just a class project.
>HELP ME UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE

   Oh my God!  The outside world made some poor student to come in here and
observe us.

   So do you think it was for a class in Abnormal Sociology or do you think
he was trying to pick up a Psychology elective in Mass Psychosis and
Delusional behavior?

   Surely he had to be a graduate student to understand most of what goes on
around here.  I can see his report now:

Katja Herrendoerfer
PSY521 (01)
Winter Semester
M-W 1-2:30
Dr. Landen

Introduction

   I subscribed to the Traveller Mailing List (TML) to observe the behavior
of a group of typical science-fiction role-playing game enthusiasts.  I
conducted observations over a three week period and kept detailed notes on
what I saw.

Summary

   These people are nuts.

Detailed Report

   I mean it, these people should be locked up.  They are loco, looney, and
certifiable in every sense of the word.  It's amazing that mental health
authorities haven't seized the name and address information of the whole lot
from their Internet service providers and had them all put away for their
own protection.  You have paranoia, delusional behavior, schizophrenia, and
manic depression being exhibited, and that was just the first digest of
messages I received.  It truly worries me that these people may have access
to bell towers and firearms, or worse yet, members of the opposite sex
willing to breed with them.  This group represents the single most
convincing argument for sterlizing the mentally ill that I have ever seen.

Conclusion

   Be afraid, be very afraid, so long as these people are allowed to roam free.

Getting fitted for his straight jacket,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:22:49 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: memory plastics

>IIRC, the Prison Planet adventure had something about items made of
special
>"memory" plastics. Can someone please send details on these (TL, cost)?

From what I remember, memory plastics were hard plastics that could be
shaped into a form, then blased with something like microwaves to fix them
in their shape. But, when boiled in water, they would become pliable again
and could be mashed into another shape. This latter action, though, just
twisted the molecues (or whatever) and didn't reform them, so there was
still the "memory" of the original shape. When subjected to physical shocks
(like rapping on a table) the molecules would reshift, and move pack toward
their original configuration.
     In the supplement, I think there were knives that were made of this.
Once boiled they could be mashed into abstract jewelry. Later they could be
brought back to their more lethal form.
     I wouldn't imagine they are that high a tech level. Say 10. The cost,
as with most plastics, should not be high where complex hydrocarbons are
readily available and an industrial base exists.

     In my own game, I've extended this idea slightly for the body pistol.
This weapon is made from memory plastic. It also has the characteristic of
having the same profile as flesh on most standard imperial scanners. So it
can be boiled, squashed, and concealed about one's person in a variety of
locations. When restored to its original form, it is capable of firing two
shots. However the first sets off a chain reaction within the material such
that within 60 seconds the entire gun has completely evaporated and, after
5 minutes, not even traces of the vapour are left that can be detected
forensically.
     Needless to say they are HIGHLY illegal.

     Plenty of ideas for budding materials scientists there...
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:54:09 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)

>I'm thinking along the lines of a cruise ship and one of the Features of the
>cruise is the experience of refueling in a gas giant atmosphere. Ok, what my
>question is, is what are the effects of a high gee world, say Saturn, or
>Jupiter on the passengers of the ship? I've always, before thought of it
>like a roller coaster ride with the crew heavily strapped into their seats
>and the ship buffeted about, but this won't do for this scenario. So I want
>to put in some extra grav compensation, but TL constraints say that 3 gee is
>the limit ( for a M:0 campaign setting). Any of the real Brains out there
>have any thoughts on what the ride would be like?

Well, I'm not a "real Brain, but I have (as ussual) an opinion, hopefully
based on scientifically correct facts.

It would be smooth and comfortable.

A Jupiter sized planet has gravitational pull of (let's say) 3 times that
of the Earth.  this means that if you are at the same distance from the
center of the Earth as the Earth's crust is and are standing on a surface
you will feel like you have your two twin brothers on your back.

This fact is not pertinent to passengers in a spaceship orbiting the
planet.  Ships and other objects in orbit are in "free fall" and the force
of gravity is acting on the whole ship and its contents equally as the ship
"falls" "around" the planet in question.  If the ship chooses to use it's
manuver drive then the force from that drive *will* be acting apon the
passengers.

Now, let's talk about scooping fuel.  There are several possibilities that
I can see, but I'll give you my own opinion of the process.

The atmosphere of any planet (that has an atmosphere) is thicker as you go
deeper into it and thinner as you increase your distance from the surface.
At a certain point the atmosphere will be only a few thousand molecules per
cubic meter (quite thin, in other words) and it is at this level that a
starship will refuel.

My theory is this; a refueling ship needs to retain as much of its kinetic
energy as possible, after all, energy is time, and we all know what time
is.  The least-time method I can think of is keeping in the thinner reaches
of the atmosphere and at a high speed so that the ship effectively "rams"
the sparse molecules of Hydrogen into the fuel scoops' openings (which may
be augmented by magnetic fields since the upper atmosphere's hydrogen is
bound to be ionized and therefore subject to magnetic forces).  Since the
atmosphere through which the ship is passing is relatively thin, turbulence
is at a minimum.

Now, if our space shuttle tried to do this at the speeds I am imagining, it
would probably be burned up, the heat buildup is well resisted by TL 11+
materials in the hull (which, hopefully, outperform the Molybdenum of the
Shuttle's tiles significantly).

Once the tanks are full and busy refining the Hydrogen (and Deuterium,
Helium, Nitrogen, etc.), the ship thrust itself to a higher orbit, and
begins the long 'burn' (an old term probably still used) to take it to
escape velocity (hopefully), probably planning to use the planet to
'slingshot' out to jump point in the process.

My only quesiton for the bigger heads is this; Is there a problem getting a
1G merchant to Jupiter's escape velocity?  Or is it just a matter of time
and thrust?

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree! Can't I have leftover Groat instead?"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:49:42 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

> >but [Hitler] WAS insane. I do believe that he would have got tired of waiting
> >for the English to negotiate, and did something stupid out of frustration.
> 
> Like attack Russia?
Well, he actually believed that conquering 'Russia would get him a
better chance for negotiating a peace with the UK. 
On the other hand, attacking Russia was part of his master-plan from the
outset. 
> 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:29:06 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: CD ROM

	Okay, the CD-ROM is pretty much ready, I'm only waiting on some
software/spreadsheet updates, and a test to see if the CD works okay on a MAC
(I could use a Unix test to).

	Cost is $15 ($10 for paid up HIWG members or contributors of material).

	Material so far included, 99% of the TML and Xboat lists. Software for IBM
and Atari (there's supposed to be some MAC material on the way to), these are
various character generators, sectors generators/viewers, some demo games, the
Traveller Navigator software including Travelcomp. Plus other minor utilities.
	Sector maps, including ones for 1120 and 1200.
	Four chats with DGP and GDW.
	Some old playtest works.
	A couple of utility programs for the IBM (grep and a unix-to-dos and dos-to-
unix file convertors). I found an indexing program that looked good to but was
unable to download it (it was on ZDnet).
	Ship and vehicle designs galore, mostly MT though. TNE, classic and T4 would
need to be pulled from the various digests.
	Deckplans, world maps.
	Old HIWG working documents.
	One set of library data.
	All told about 200-250 meg of material so far (and still growing)

	WANTED: More donations (you want to web pages here?), I'd still like an
indexing tool.

	Address:
	3890 50th street
	San Diego, CA 92105-3005

	Money orders preferred.

	So far I don't think I've had any international requests, if I do get some
and you can't get U.S. funds I'm pretty sure I can arrange something with Andy
Lilly or Kevin Parry in the U.K., Rob Prior in Canada, and Martin Rait in New
Zealand.

	On another note, there should be periodic updates of the CD, right now I'm
figuring yearly. Early purchasers will get a discount $3-$5 if I can arrange
it.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #183
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 18 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 184



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Minor race homeworlds
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: CD ROM
Eris saith
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: MT Errata
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: FFS2 - call for official errata
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Religion in America
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: galaxies in collision
dark matter
Starport Economics
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Best TML Acronym
Re: dark matter
Re: Traveller Art
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Getting Stoned

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:34:37 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

Steve Daniels wrote:

>So, can we then assume that Syleans have a traditional inclination against
>bathing and hygiene (which keeps their medical TL from advancing too quickly)?
>What about fondness for cheese, snails and wine?  And not letting allies fly
>over their territory?

Careful, now... even though this is a pretty Teutonic bunch here, I know
there are some among us who belong to the ethnic group you're slurring
there.

Hell, there might even be some French, too.

>Doesn't  this mean that "Sylea" should be pronounced "Silly?"  And thus, this
>world is home for Traveller: The Silly Era?

Q.E.D.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:34:42 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

What?? What's this????? Someone trying to escape????

TAKE ME WITH YOU!!!!!  OH, GOD, PLEASE TAKE ME WITH YOU!!!!!! I'VE BEEN
TRYING TO UNSUBSCRIBE FOR MONTHS!!!!!!!

On the other hand... certain POWERS, let's call Them, don't LIKE IT when
people just try to up and leave.  Some pretty... out-there.... things have
sorta kinda just HAPPENED to folks who try too hard.  Look at that jet over
in Taiwan just the other day: 203 successfully unsubscribed TMLers.  I'm
starting to like it here... I suppose we'd all just better START GETTING
USED TO THIS BEING THE REST OF OUR LIVES.  At least I walked into this with
my eyes open, not because I was TRYING TO COMPLETE A CLASS ASSIGNMENT.  YOU
POOR MISGUIDED FOOL!!!!!

I dunno.  Katja might still be able to get away.  RUN, GIRL!!!!! GET OUT
WHILE YOU CAN!!!!!   GET OUT!!!!   GET OUT!!!!     IT'S HELL IN HERE!!!!!
HELL, I TELL YOU!!!!!      SAVE YOURSELF!!!!!   WARN YOUR FRIENDS!!!!!!!!

SEND HELP!!!!!!!

Sector Vice-Admiral Sir Napoleon Varian hault-Zhunastu-Alkhalikoi IV, Jr.,
M.D., D.D.S., Marquis of Craw (Ms.)
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:38:53 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: CD ROM

Totally clueless and ill-informed question here on my part:  are there any
potential copyright or property rights problems involved in this?  I mean,
you are, basically, taking individual contributors' private posts to the
list and redistributing them in another format and all that.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:51:17 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Eris saith

Eris said:

> Say, have you heard the one about the bullet that penetrated a guy's skull, 
> traveled *around* his brain and exited the other side?

No, but if you hum a few bars I can fake it...

Not that one, but a similar case is mentioned in the biography of premier
forensic pathologist Dr Milton Hepburn, "Where Death Delights..."

Seems a man shot his wife in back of the skull, the roud skimmed around inside
and exited the entry hole (she was killed), hitting the guy in the shoulder
and wounding him badly enough the cops found them both lying on the floor.

Ya can't make up stuff this strange...

Loren Wiseman 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:18:21
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183

At 07
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
>Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
>>   Oh my God!  The outside world made some poor student to come in here and
>observe us.

<report fragment>

>  It truly worries me that these people may have access
>to bell towers and firearms, or worse yet, members of the opposite sex
>willing to breed with them.  This group represents the single most
>convincing argument for sterlizing the mentally ill that I have ever seen.

I have a 2 year old daughter. One of her favorite games is to sit down with
a pad of paper, a pen, a calculator and my copy of FFS, and draw on the
paper, and press buttons on the calculator. Just like Daddy.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:41:36 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

At 01:23 am 2/17/98 PST, you wrote:
>ps. the two inch  rock is just about the right size for a sling. And a
>trainer slinger with a rock that size *will* kill you. :-)

	Just ask my traditional nemesis ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:50:48 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MT Errata

At 06:29 am 2/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
>If I remember correctly, there was a sheet of errata packed in with the MT
>boxed set (Player's Manual, Ref's Manual, Imp. Encyclopedia, Spinward Map)
>Does anyone have this errata or any errata for MT?

	I have some on my Web site; the only errata I've ever found.

>I am curious about the skill "combat rifleman". It is only available through
>"Special Combat" which is fairly rare, even for the military careers. I
>would think that an Army or Marine character would have a much better chance
>of getting "combat rifleman".
>This is what I have done: For all "military" careers, "gun combat" includes
>"combat rifleman"
>Does this seem like a reasonable method?

	I believe the idea was to restrict the "combat rifleman" skill, which
gives skill with ALL kinds of longarms, to military. Others (non-military)
don't get the intense, general training but just learn on a specific style
of weapon. However, it *should* be available to most Army or Marine
characters.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:44:26 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

At 08:51 am 2/17/98 -0500, you wrote:

>   It would be, except that the truth is even more bizarre.  The Army for
>years had fixed wing aircraft (and still might, my info is a little
dated).
>They were strictly used for observation and were unarmed.  At various points
>the Army tried to get armed, fixed wing aircraft but the projects
>were--sorry for the pun--shot down by the Air Force.  A few years back the
>Air Force finally offered up its fleet of aging A-10s to the Army, which

	I don't think the army ever HAD A-10's. Perhaps you're referring to the
the "OV-10s Broncos" which are in no way related to the A-10/OA-10 Warthog
... in that case it was more than a few years ago, as my first assignment
was to an OV-10 unit.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:36:48 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

At 02:53 pm 2/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>As for the creation of the world in 7 days, quite a few religious
>Christians believe that *and* the scientific record. One rationalization
>is that the days refer to "God's days" and we humans have no clear
>understanding as to what God might consider a day. The 7 days can be
>seen as alogorical, not literal, and that's also a common preception.
>And then may of us follow the dictum of "render unto Ceaser what is
>Ceaser's and to God what is God's", and seperate what we *believe*
>religiously and what we *think* scientifically into mental
>compartments....who was it that said "consistancy is the hobgoblin of
>simple minds", Wilde? Shaw?

	I believe God created the universe. I also believe that the intelligence
with which he gifted us reveals evidence the universe predates 4004 BC by
quite a bit. So *if* God created the universe in 4004 BC, he put in
evidence that it was much older, and hence perhaps might want us to believe
it's much older ... I also note that the book of Genesis has two
contradictory creation myths--if it's the literal truth, one of them MUST
be wrong, and hence it cannot be the literal truth ... 

>Ob Trav: Religion seems to be an almost universal human meme. I've
>noticed that even most self-proclaimed atheists are "religiously"
>anti-religious. ;->  That being the case, I think it is likely that most

	Guaranteed to start a fight with a coworker if I equate atheism (a
definite belief concerning Supreme Being(s), namely that they don't exist)
with religion ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:40:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FFS2 - call for official errata

At 09:18 am 2/17/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Dave/Guy,
>
>Can you give me an official answer on something in FFS2? I was doing calcs
>for carried small craft for my baby carrier and I notice that the number of
>support personnel relates to the mass of the carried craft. On pre-designed
>ships this isn't in the USP or Ship Card.

	Which isn't? The number of support personnel or the mass of carried craft?
Both should be there; the first included in the crew numbers, the second in
the predesigned carried craft ...

>Michael Koehne suggested using 15 to 20 Tonnes per Displacment Ton as a
>starting point. What's your opinion as writers of the supplement?

	I believe we assumed an "average" density of 0.8 to 1.2 t/m3, or 11 to 17
tonnes per disp ton ... Yep, check p11.

	HOWEVER! We never got to do playtesting to see if actual designs fell in
that range... YMMV.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:55:56 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> What?? What's this????? Someone trying to escape????
>
> TAKE ME WITH YOU!!!!!  OH, GOD, PLEASE TAKE ME WITH YOU!!!!!! I'VE BEEN
> TRYING TO UNSUBSCRIBE FOR MONTHS!!!!!!!
>
> On the other hand... certain POWERS, let's call Them, don't LIKE IT when
> people just try to up and leave.  Some pretty... out-there.... things have
> sorta kinda just HAPPENED to folks who try too hard.  Look at that jet over
> in Taiwan just the other day: 203 successfully unsubscribed TMLers.  I'm
> starting to like it here... I suppose we'd all just better START GETTING
> USED TO THIS BEING THE REST OF OUR LIVES.  At least I walked into this with
> my eyes open, not because I was TRYING TO COMPLETE A CLASS ASSIGNMENT.  YOU
> POOR MISGUIDED FOOL!!!!!
>
> I dunno.  Katja might still be able to get away.  RUN, GIRL!!!!! GET OUT
> WHILE YOU CAN!!!!!   GET OUT!!!!   GET OUT!!!!     IT'S HELL IN HERE!!!!!
> HELL, I TELL YOU!!!!!      SAVE YOURSELF!!!!!   WARN YOUR FRIENDS!!!!!!!!
>
> SEND HELP!!!!!!!
>
> Sector Vice-Admiral Sir Napoleon Varian hault-Zhunastu-Alkhalikoi IV, Jr.,
> M.D., D.D.S., Marquis of Craw (Ms.)
> kenji@accessone.com

 I suppose this makes me an accomplice to unsubscription?  Is that an Imperial
crime, or does it fall under planetary jurisdiction?

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:53:20 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

At 04:59 pm 2/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>messages I received.  It truly worries me that these people may have access
>to bell towers and firearms, or worse yet, members of the opposite sex
>willing to breed with them.  This group represents the single most

	REALLY????? Where can I find such a member of the opposite sex? I like
them tall, well educated, intelligent, non-anorexic figure, and preferably
not too ditzy. I'm single, employed, somewhat old-fashioned and liberal
simultaneously, quite undernourished, and have a slightly off-the-wall
sense of humor ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:31:49 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Religion in America

At 10:35 pm 2/16/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Andrew Boulton schrieb:
>
>> > 51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms
>> > 60% believe that the world was created in 7 days
>> 
>> That's just depressing.
>Yes, I know, but Americans have shown weird opinions in other polls as
>well:
>I once heard that a sizeable portion of US-High Schoolers believe that
>Hitler (or the Nazis) are still in power in Germany....
>When we tried to make this study in our school (an international school
>in the Netherlands, a country nextdoor to Germany) 25% of the American
>Sections High School Students professed the same opinion, and that
>living no farther than 20 kms from the border... Somehow figures.
>Somehow also explains why my Father and I, when we were in the States,
>once were greeted with "Heil Hitler" as soon as the waitress figured out
>we were speaking German.... Sometimes on is just left speechless.

	When I moved back to the U.S. from Germany, one of redneck's in my class
decided my nickname should be "Hitler" ... but then I went to Redneck High,
so it was par for the course. Needless to say, he never earned any
attention from me.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:51:01 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

>         I don't think the army ever HAD A-10's. Perhaps you're referring to the
> the "OV-10s Broncos" which are in no way related to the A-10/OA-10 Warthog
> ... in that case it was more than a few years ago, as my first assignment
> was to an OV-10 unit.


Army never had'em, but they were going to get'em.  All blew up though. 
Con't know why.  So go my chances of flyin a hog.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:49:52 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

> I suppose this makes me an accomplice to unsubscription?  Is that an
Imperial
>crime, or does it fall under planetary jurisdiction?
>
>--
Neither! It is covered under the Templer's Rules of Inquisition! Prepare the
rake! Heat the irons! hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahh! ...... oh, sorry.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:27:23 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

>something like galactic spin rates, galactic group sizes, galactic
>formation doesn't fit physics astronomers put a ltlle dark matter here and
>there to make it fit. As there generally is more dark matter than normal
>one in a typical astronomer conjured galaxy I'd say large scale astronomy
>is one of the weakest sciences around.
There are increasing numbers of direct evidence for dark matter on
various scales. The LLNL MACHO microlensing project found dark objects
in our galaxie's halo, with overall density basically consistent with 
the amount of dark matter predicted by "galactic spin rates" (big error
bars, but clearly inconsistent with zero - there's definitely quite a 
bit of dark junk in the halo. We have no good idea what it is, though.

On large scales, the canonical number for the amount of dark matter
in galaxy clusters at least roughly agrees with the predictions of
how much "conventional" matter there should be based on Big Bang
nucleosynthesis.

So it's not quite as bad as Anders implies...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:28:07 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: galaxies in collision

Re: Galaxies in collision?

>BTW Dark matter is the pro astronomers name for handwave. Whenever
>something like galactic spin rates, galactic group sizes, galactic
>formation doesn't fit physics astronomers put a ltlle dark matter here and
>there to make it fit. As there generally is more dark matter than normal
>one in a typical astronomer conjured galaxy I'd say large scale astronomy
>is one of the weakest sciences around.
There are increasing numbers of direct evidence for dark matter on
various scales. The LLNL MACHO microlensing project found dark objects
in our galaxie's halo, with overall density basically consistent with 
the amount of dark matter predicted by "galactic spin rates" (big error
bars, but clearly inconsistent with zero - there's definitely quite a 
bit of dark junk in the halo. We have no good idea what it is, though.

On large scales, the canonical number for the amount of dark matter
in galaxy clusters at least roughly agrees with the predictions of
how much "conventional" matter there should be based on Big Bang
nucleosynthesis.

So it's not quite as bad as Anders implies...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:37:16 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: dark matter

You might be a little confused between different kinds of dark matter. On
the basis of galactic rotation it's pretty clear that 90% of the mass of our
galaxy has to be dark (somehow, unless the law of gravity isn't what we think
of); this could easily be compact objects (brown dwarfs/MACHOs.) On the basis
of the motions of galaxies inclusters it's also clear that 99% of the mass of
clusters is dark - which could, again, be MACHOs, or something more exotic.
Possibly coincidently this is the same number you get if you ask "how much
conventional matter was present (just after) the big bang"?

The kind of dark matter you seem to be objecting to most is the kind that 
gets put into galaxy formation scenarios - it's true that it's hard to
make the kind of galaxies and clusters we see, given what we know (from COBE)
about post-big-bang conditions, using the known matter in the form of gas.
One thing that helps is "cold dark matter", which doesn't interact with ordinary
matter except gravitationally. This could still be "conventional" matter; on
astronomical scales, rocks don't interact except gravitationally, for example
(though it's hard to form rocks right after the big bang.) Or it could be
neutrinos - there are lots of neutrinoes left over from the big bang, and if
they have even a tiny mass they make great cold dark matter. Given that we
had the gravitational evidence (see paragraph 1) about dark matter in galaxies and
clusters, positing Yet More dark matter didn't actually seem that unreasonable.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 03:27:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Starport Economics

I've been reading up on the thread on Starship economics and when the mention
came up about the huge MegaCorp Super freighters we all assume are out there I
thought that would be a fun thing to us to get more familiar with FF&S2's ship
design sequences.  Then I thought "how much tonnage trade does a Starport
generate in a week?"
    And suddenly I realized I haven't a CLUE and that this is a very important
thing to know because this would effect the size of the ship a MegaCorp would
put on such a run.  After all you don't want cargo space to be wasted and you
want to make sure that you have enough.  So how do you figure out how much
tonnage in cargo goes through a Starport in a given week?
    I suppose it would be effected by Starport type, world population size, if
it's on the Secotr Main, the number of jump-1 worlds nearby, population and
Starport type of other nearby worlds and so on, but...  I haven't a clue as to
how to bring all that together.  Anyone have any ideas?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:11:06 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >The French, sadly, will never be fully integrated with anybody except
> >themselves.
> You're reminding me of the 'Yes Minister' sketch when the UK Civil
Service
> admit that the real reason for a British Nuclear Deterent is because of
the
> French.
> 
> Dom

And your point being?  As everyone in the English Speaking World knows the
French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video.  Add
to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry Lee Lewis,
but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good stuff with him. 
Plus, they site American Cultural Imperialism.

I say NUKE-EM TILL THEY GLOW & SHOOT THEM IN THE DARK.

If anyone does not belive this is humor can go and ...

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist who like to blow up French Buldings.
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 22:48:40 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Best TML Acronym

On 02/17/98 at 09:09 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

> Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>, our soon to be flambeed one if the canon
>police catch him, wrote:

Hee! Hee!

>>I intend to blatently imitate IMTU from now on.
>>
>>Eris,
>>    IMTU I'm *still* a heretic

>No, no, no.

>IEOTUBYO you're still a heretic.

No, Dom, I'm such a heretic, that I'm still a heretic IM very own TU. ;-p

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:16:27 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: dark matter

positing Yet More dark matter didn't actually seem that unreasonable.
> 
> Bruce


Thankfully ST:NG has named it all for us!  Lots of new, dorky names out
their just waiting to be taged to some new particle or "emission."

Tetrion waves or radiation anybody?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:25:47 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Art

At 11:13 PM 2/17/1998 +0000, you wrote:
>Can I just commendate Vanya (Danny) for adding a link to Mike Linsenmayer's
>pages, and the great art he's done on a Traveller them to the 'not-the-IG
>website'. Thanks - looks great.
>
>Dom


Yes, You can :)

But it would be even better if you'd give the
URL for the page you're taking the time to praise. ;)

JB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:04:16 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

Really DUMB question, but...

  If there was only one bang, and it was from a uniform singular mass, how
and a galaxy collide with another, since they should be moving more or
less the same speed, and from a common center shouldn't they?
   


     Hal

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:07:10 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

David Golden wrote:

>        REALLY????? Where can I find such a member of the opposite sex? I like
>them tall, well educated, intelligent, non-anorexic figure, and preferably
>not too ditzy. I'm single, employed, somewhat old-fashioned and liberal
>simultaneously, quite undernourished, and have a slightly off-the-wall
>sense of humor ...

I know it doesn't seem like it most of the time, but the TML is NOT meant
to be a dating service!  Knock it off, people!  Really.  Enough is enough!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:06:37 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> I suppose this makes me an accomplice to unsubscription?  Is that an Imperial
>crime, or does it fall under planetary jurisdiction?

Imperial.  The IN loads them onto small, fast, maneuverable fighters armed
with ship-killer missiles and dumps 'em off to face prosecution for
thoughtlessness crimes back on the list.

Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.
Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 23:09:14 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

On 02/17/98 at 01:23 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Please note that "two inch diameter rock" and "quarter pound" are both
>*way* off. Typical "track ballast" is more like 3 to 4 inches. And it
>weighs a lot more than a quarter pound. 

Geeze! Not around here.  I was down on the tracks just the other day and
the rock chunks were jagged, gray, 2 to 3 inch rocks, and weighed well
under a pound. Different part of the country?

>>>  J = 108 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 70

>>>  DV = (70 x .735 / 5 )^.5 = 3

>I've got no idea what the ".735" in this is, so I can't complete the calc.

Heck, if I know either, do you know what the 2011 is? IAC, this is the
formula from Guns, Guns, Guns.

Let's use your 4", 2lb rock and see what we get, oh, but can you chunk a
2lb rock 80+mph?  Well, let's say you can...

 g = 900   vel = 36m/s  diameter = 10cm

 J = 900 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 580

 DV = (580 x .735 / 10 )^.5 = 7 

>But I can tell you from personal experience that a fist sized rock *tossed
>casually* gave me several stitches and almost gave me a concussion.

BTW, I'm not arguing with you that a fist sized rock will hurt you badly,
kill you if you're unlucky. What I'm saying is the the formula for the dv
see *too* low. This might be a problem with scaling at the low end.

>ps. the two inch  rock is just about the right size for a sling. And a
>trainer slinger with a rock that size *will* kill you. :-)

Yeah, but with a sling you get a longer lever, so much higher velocity. I'd
guess it is at least doubled, and that makes the smaller rock as damaging
as the larger one (7dv).

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #184
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 18 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 185



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: MT Errata
Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Starport capacity
Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: Templars (was Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?)
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE (humor)
300,000 T passenger liner
Starport Economics
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Traveller Art

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 23:24:02 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

On 02/17/98 at 11:12 AM,  "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com> said:

>Why would you have 58,000 people going from one world to another as a 
>regular course of events?  I can't think of reasons.  Thoughts?  

For those kinds of numbers inter-stellar travel would have to be as common
as inter-continental travel is today. For travel to be *that* common, the
price of a ticket needs to come down into the upper hundreds of
dollars..say 1/20th the 5000Cr price tag Hans quoted. Isn't a Concorde
ticket about $3000 (or 1000Cr)? 

I'm not promoting those numbers, just suggesting they seem appropriate.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:51:07 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: MT Errata

>>This is what I have done: For all "military" careers, "gun combat"
>>includes
>>"combat rifleman"
>>Does this seem like a reasonable method?
>
> I believe the idea was to restrict the "combat rifleman" skill, which
>gives skill with ALL kinds of longarms, to military. Others (non-military)
>don't get the intense, general training but just learn on a specific style
>of weapon. However, it *should* be available to most Army or Marine
>characters.


That's what I did. I allowed the "military" careers to have access to
"combat rifleman" through "gun combat" cascade. I agree the "general public"
shouldn't have access to "combat rifleman".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 23:44:31 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)

On 02/17/98 at 04:54 PM,  "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> said:

>My theory is this; a refueling ship needs to retain as much of its kinetic
>energy as possible, after all, energy is time, and we all know what time
>is.  The least-time method I can think of is keeping in the thinner
>reaches of the atmosphere and at a high speed so that the ship effectively
>"rams" the sparse molecules of Hydrogen into the fuel scoops' openings
>(which may be augmented by magnetic fields since the upper atmosphere's
>hydrogen is bound to be ionized and therefore subject to magnetic forces). 
>Since the atmosphere through which the ship is passing is relatively thin,
>turbulence is at a minimum.

Sounds like a good theory to me.

>Now, if our space shuttle tried to do this at the speeds I am imagining,
>it would probably be burned up, the heat buildup is well resisted by TL
>11+ materials in the hull (which, hopefully, outperform the Molybdenum of
>the Shuttle's tiles significantly).

Interesting question. I'd suggest reactive cooling might have to be
employed.

>Once the tanks are full and busy refining the Hydrogen (and Deuterium,
>Helium, Nitrogen, etc.), 

Here's where there might be a problem. The full tanks contain a mixture of
elements, a percentage of which won't be useful as jump fuel (be it actual
fuel or reaction mass), so the ship will have to expell the gases it can't
use and skim more for refining, refine it, expell, skim, refine...until the
desired quantity of hydrogen, pure enough to qualify as refined fuel, is
obtained.  Either that or take on a good deal more gas to refine than it
will eventually need.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 23:57:54 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

On 02/17/98 at 11:04 PM,  HAL <hal@buffnet.net> said:

>Really DUMB question, but...

>  If there was only one bang, and it was from a uniform singular mass, how
>and a galaxy collide with another, since they should be moving more or
>less the same speed, and from a common center shouldn't they?

It doesn't sound so dumb to me Hal.  The universe does seem pretty curdled
and clumpy to have originated from a uniformly expanding point source,
doesn't it? 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:03:18 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

At 15:36 17/02/98 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Dom wrote:
>[some garbage - snipped]
>
>Well, what level of staffing is there on the QE2 or the average cruise
>ship? That, I think, would be the most valid model to use here. IMHO the 8
>High passage/steward is for relatively small ships.
>
>Bruce Johnson

There is a TV documentary called the Cruise going on at the moment, and
there are 1000 staff vs 2000 customers.  The Cruise takes about a week.


Cheers



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:24:31 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

At 06:53 PM 17/02/98 -0700, David Golden wrote:
>At 04:59 pm 2/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>messages I received.  It truly worries me that these people may have
>access
>>to bell towers and firearms, or worse yet, members of the opposite sex
>>willing to breed with them.  This group represents the single most
>
>	REALLY????? Where can I find such a member of the opposite sex? I like
>them tall, well educated, intelligent, non-anorexic figure, and preferably
>not too ditzy. I'm single, employed, somewhat old-fashioned and liberal
>simultaneously, quite undernourished, and have a slightly off-the-wall
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
>sense of humor ...
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

Is this a poorly veiled appeal for somebody who can cook?

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:27:12 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

At 08:51 PM 17/02/98 -0600, Deadeye wrote:
>>         I don't think the army ever HAD A-10's. Perhaps you're referring
to the
>> the "OV-10s Broncos" which are in no way related to the A-10/OA-10 Warthog
>> ... in that case it was more than a few years ago, as my first assignment
>> was to an OV-10 unit.
>
>
>Army never had'em, but they were going to get'em.  All blew up though. 
>Con't know why.  So go my chances of flyin a hog.
>
I belive that the Air Force got cold feet when they realized that it would
set a precedent.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:41:09 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

At 08:06 PM 17/02/98 +0800, Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.
>Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
>saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?
>
Government Rating = 0 NO GOVERNMENT, CLANS, ETC.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:02:33 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

At 08:51 AM 17/02/98 -0500, Harold wrote:
>   It would be, except that the truth is even more bizarre.  The Army for
>years had fixed wing aircraft (and still might, my info is a little dated).
>They were strictly used for observation and were unarmed.  At various points
>the Army tried to get armed, fixed wing aircraft but the projects
>were--sorry for the pun--shot down by the Air Force.  A few years back the
>Air Force finally offered up its fleet of aging A-10s to the Army, which
>said thanks but no thanks (sort of like the way you turn down the offer of a
>1985 Jaguar with 500,000 km, noticeable rust, and an unexplained fluid leak).
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold
>
The version I heard was that the Air Force decided they wern't going to
replace the old A-10s, and the Army sid that if the Air Force wouldn'd
provide the support they needed (i.e. the A-10s), then they'd do it
themselves. In order to prevent a precedent being set the Air Force then
decided that they would keep the A-10s in service after all.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:54:43 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

At 01:23 AM 17/02/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> At 01:23 AM 15/02/98 -0600, Eris wrote:
>>>On 02/14/98 at 09:55 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>>>
>>>>Yes I can. Contrary to the opinion of far too many people, a thrown rock
>>>>is a deadly weapon. There's a *reason* why riot police wear those helmets
>>>>and carry those shields. Without them, rocks are *deadly*. With them, the
>>>>rocks are merely dangerous.
>>>
>>>>There's a case on record of a grizzly bear charging a railroad "track
>>>>walker". The track walker was an amateur softball pitcher. He *killed* the
>>>>grizzly by throwing rocks at it. Anything that can kill an adult grizzly
>>>>is equivalent to a bullet as far as "force" is concerned.
>>>
>>>Hum, let's see...a quarter pound rock, about two inches in diameter thrown
>>>at eighty miles per hour...that would be about 110 grams at about 36 meters
>>>per second.  Using G^3, and rounding everything off, we get...
>>>
>>>  J = 108 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 70
>>>
>>>  DV = (70 x .735 / 5 )^.5 = 3
>>>
>>>...at best we're talking about 1d3, at best.  That track walker must have
>>>had some beaucoup good rolls on his throws. ;->
>>>
>>>That *really* seems too low, though, doesn't it! You'd *think* a rock
>>>thrown hard would do more damage than that. Did I do the math wrong? 
>>>
>> The maths worked out the same for me :) If you put the numbers into TNE you
>> get a Dam of 1D6-1, the same as a .22 Long Rifle. Now the .22LR has been
>> used to kill an elephant with one shot, but I don't think you could do that
>> with one rock of that size. 
>>
>> I suspect that rocks are dangerous for their energy because of their
>> relatively high momentum. This same high momentum/low energy compared to a
>> .22LR is why I don't think a rock would work on an elephant (poor
>> penetration).
>
>Please note that "two inch diameter rock" and "quarter pound" are both
>*way* off. Typical "track ballast" is more like 3 to 4 inches. And it
>weighs a lot more than a quarter pound. 
>
>I just dug into the bucket I toos the "odd" chunks of rock I pick up
>into. I have here a rock that fits comfortably into my hand, and is of
>typical track ballast size. It weighs 15 ounces. It's roughly 2.5" x
>3.5" x 2.5". And for attack purposes, you'd want something more in the
>"fist sized" range. Which means it'll *easily* weigh one kilo.
>
>>>  J = 108 x (36)^2 / 2011 = 70
>
>J = 1000 * 36^2 / 2011 = 645
>
>>>  DV = (70 x .735 / 5 )^.5 = 3
>
>I've got no idea what the ".735" in this is, so I can't complete the
>calc. 

I don't either, but a 1kg rock would do 2D6 in TNE, which is not that
different from the damage it gives - 1D6+STR

>But I can tell you from personal experience that a fist sized rock
>*tossed casually* gave me several stitches and almost gave me a
>concussion.
>
>Conside the skull as armor, and use the "blunt trauma damage" rules if
>the rock can't penetrate.

I know what you mean - I was hit by a practice granade, and if I hadn't
seen it coming and flinched I would've lost teeth (as it was it hit in the
shoulder, and I couldn't use my left arm for two days).

>ps. the two inch  rock is just about the right size for a sling. And a
>trainer slinger with a rock that size *will* kill you. :-)
>
IIRC the favoured projectile for a sling was a lead slug, about a inch in
diameter, which would weigh about a hundred grams. These sling bullets
killed a lot of people, even when they wore helmets.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:36:41
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Starport capacity

At 
>
>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 03:27:00 GMT 
>From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
>Subject: Starport Economics
>
>I've been reading up on the thread on Starship economics and when the mention
>came up about the huge MegaCorp Super freighters we all assume are out
there I
>thought that would be a fun thing to us to get more familiar with FF&S2's
ship
>design sequences.  Then I thought "how much tonnage trade does a Starport
>generate in a week?"

My method with the Grand Unified Traveller Trade Theory was that a
starport's throughput was, by definition, related to the amount of
interstellar trade created by a world.

The amount of trade created depended on the profitibility of trading with
that world, with a fudge factor for "luxury exports", which were determined
essentially at random (eg worlds who export dustspice, natural gemstones,
'48 Lafite and all that other high-value low-bulk stuff).

Starport quality had a positive effect on trade, because high-grade
starports make trade more profitable for both buyers and sellers, by
reducing the cost of bought goods and increasing the selling price of goods
via better broker availability.

The other way to go is to fix a kilo-per-person limit with starports - I
dunno, maybe 10 kilos per person on planet per week for an E port, and
going up by a factor of five per grade increase.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:19:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155

 
> So You are saying that when US next time bombs Iraq they can (and should be 
> allowed)  defend their country by destroying whole New York or some other 
> big city in USA with bioweapons.

Sure, they can do as they wish. We would turn their country to
glass, but they're welcome to give it a go.

Frankly, we shouldn't bomb Iraq. We should let them know that they
are targeted with nukes, and that if they *use* CBN weapons on
anybody (even in Iraq) it will be treated as a CBN attack on us, and
they'll get nuked.

It worked for 50 years, it could work with Iraq (and would end this
stupid rhetoric-fest Saddam and Bill have been having).

I think this is what drives (ObTraveller :-) the fact that weapons
of mass destruction aren't used even in external wars in traveller.
It's a slope no one wants to start down.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:12:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net> wrote

> > > These are percentages of  Americans that believe various things:
> 
> > > 86% believe in a God or a Supreme Being (7% do not, 6% don't know/refuse)

> > That's quite high. I'm surprised.
> 
> No, that's about right in the US. It doesn't mean all 86% are very
> religious. You'll also notice it doesn't specify *which* God they
> believe in. 

No actually all this means is that 86% of those surveyed (and if the
survey was accurate & valid there is a 95% chance that the number is 86
+/- 3%) _said_ that they believed in a God or a Supreme Being.

People lie in surveys.  The more personal the question the more they
lie.  Peoples religious beliefs are personal.  It is quite possible that
people lie about their religious beliefs a lot.

These numbers cannot necessarily be considered valid.  They probably
have some vailidity.

> > > 51% don't believe that humans evolved from lower lifeforms
> > > 60% believe that the world was created in 7 days

> > That's just depressing.

> No, that's encouraging! I'm surprised the majority polled accept
> evolution, in some form, that's a *good* sign.

No this survey said 51% _don't_ believe that humans evolved from lower
lifeforms.  This means that (subject to margins of error) no more than
49% can believe that humans did evolve from lower lifeforms.  Some
percentage of the surveyed population will not even know what
_evolution_ is and therefore any answers they give to this question,
either way, would be problematic at best.

Ob (Conspiratorial) Traveller: Obviously 9in the Traveller Universe) we
did _not_ evolve from lower animals unaided.  The Ancients took hominid
populations and messed with them.  Can we really be sure that this did
not include the hominid population left on Earth ?  After all we know
that Ancient sites have been found elsewhere in the solar system.  Maybe
the Imperium never found these Ancient sites because a conspiracy (or
conspiracies) existing prior to the founding of the Imperium was
covering up these sites...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:33:05 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Templars (was Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?)

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:

> Furthermore, "destroyer" is spelled with seven different letters and
>"Templar is also spelled with seven.  Ergo, destroyer-class warships 
 are
>fronts for Templar activities.  

At this time I would like to apologize to the Traveller mailing list for
introducing numerology (in the form of the Darmine faith) into our
Traveller discussions.  Kenji seems to have taken to it _too_ well,
possibly his writing about the Sayat is just a cover for his true
Darmine beliefs.

Besides using a simple numerological analysis we can clearly see that by
using the following system (A=1, B=2, C=3 . . . Z=26) 

Destroyer = 4 + 5 + 19 + 20 +18 +15 +25 + 5 + 18 = 129
	 	1 + 2 + 9 = 12
		1 + 2 = 3

Which is not significant

while

Templar = 20 + 5 + 13 + 16 + 12 + 1 + 18 = 85
		8 + 5 = 13
		1 + 3 + 4

Which, obviously, is significant	

To discover what the Templars control we will have too look at a
slightly bigger picture.

I note that

Imperium = 9 + 13 + 16 + 15 + 5 + 18 + 9 + 21 + 13 = 103
		1 + 0 + 3 = 4

I believe we have uncovered true extent of the Templar sphere of
influence.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:23:22 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE (humor)

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu> wrote

> Katja Herrendoerfer, a student at BYU writes:

> >I am sick of these mails.  I don't need the info. It was just a class
> > project. HELP ME UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE

>    So do you think it was for a class in Abnormal Sociology ? 
>  I can see his report now:

>    I subscribed to the Traveller Mailing List (TML) to observe the behavior
> of a group of typical science-fiction role-playing game enthusiasts.
  
> Summary
>    These people are nuts.

> Detailed Report
> 
>    I mean it, these people should be locked up.  They are loco,       > looney, and
> certifiable in every sense of the word.  You have paranoia,

OK, Harold who told you I was paranoid ?  It was _them_ wasn't it.  I
know they are watching me. 

> delusional behavior, schizophrenia
 
The voices assure me I am perfectly normal and that anyone who says
otherwise is part of one of the many plots against me.

and
> manic depression

If you had said this a couple days ago I would not have cared at all,
why bother to respond at all - but now I know that I have to respond
right away.

I notice that Herrendoerfer (as attributed by Harold) forgot to mention
obsessive compulsive disorder.  When I think off how long some people on
the mailing list let some of the threads go on I am sure that some of
them must have OCD.  I of course do not and if you will just wait a
minute while I wash my hands 14 times I will be able to finish this
email.

> being exhibited, and that was just the first digest 
> of messages I received.  It truly worries me that these people may 
> have access to bell towers

Sadly not since I stopped attending UT Austin...

> and firearms

I assure you I don't own any guns at all, not a one.  If you do not
believe me you can always break into my apartment late at night & check
for yourself :)

The preceding message was brought to you by the humourous side of Peter
Newman.  If any of you out there are truly of differntial sanity I did
not mean to offend you, or at least thats what I say, but can you really
trust me ?  After all you don't know me and even if you did I might
still be one of the people plotting against you. :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 09:37 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: 300,000 T passenger liner

Moin Hans Rancke-Madsen,

> Somebody asked about huge passenger ships. Last night I did a rough QSDS1.5
> design of a 300,000 T passenger liner.

	as you did'nt mention techlevel, but QSDS I assume that you mean
	TL:12. At TL:12 100kdt is the maximum size of a battleship with a
	model 6 computer. So I would expect the largest frighter/liners
	in the 30-80kdt range. 300kdt would be at least TL:13. Question
	is of course: " How many routes justify such a liner "

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 10:40 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Starport Economics

Moin Stephen,

>     And suddenly I realized I haven't a CLUE and that this is a very important
> thing to know because this would effect the size of the ship a MegaCorp would
> put on such a run.  After all you don't want cargo space to be wasted and you
> want to make sure that you have enough.  So how do you figure out how much
> tonnage in cargo goes through a Starport in a given week?

	a starport has to handle freigth and passengers.

	for passengers, take the GNP multiply it with 1d6/1000, and you
	have the money of people who can afford a ticket. modify the %%
	at will to reflect government (e.g +2%% for democracies, -1%%
	for captative governments) you can make a table about.

	for freight we have maintenance and luxus.

	if techlevel>poplevel calculate capital and reinvestments.
	(10^techlevel) divided by (10^poplevel)*(2^maintmod) minus 1
	could be used for the minimum import necessary to sustain the
	techlevel.  if techlevel<=poplevel or the above formular gives a
	result less than 0, used 3d6%% as maintenance import. Luxus
	import is within the same range, or double range if its a rich
	system. Add military spending to the luxus import if the system
	feals low tech.

	Now we have one side only. Most systems will generate the same
	amount of exports as they have imports in Credits. For displacement
	tons traffic dont forget the "terms of trade" as in Merchant Prince.
	As the systems have not the same size, a large highpop system
	can produce a large amount of traffic distributed over other
	systems. If the area of distribution is larger than the techlevel
	of the subsector -10 (highest techlevel is allways military, next
	is advanced civilian, next is backwater) you also need to upgrade
	starports on the route. So you can expect some stop points 2
	parsecs around Sylea, able to handle ships for surrounding systems
	dealing withg Sylea.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:39:12 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:

>Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.
>Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
>saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?

Feudal Technocracy?

<duck and run>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:32:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

"Legate" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:

>> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>> >The French, sadly, will never be fully integrated with anybody except
>> >themselves.
>> You're reminding me of the 'Yes Minister' sketch when the UK Civil
>Service
>> admit that the real reason for a British Nuclear Deterent is because of
>the
>> French.

>And your point being?

Point? Point? Who said there had to be a point...?

>As everyone in the English Speaking World knows the
>French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video.

We *know* McDonalds survived (just became renamed 'Starport Bar (tm)') as
Famille Spofulam gave us the information.

>Add
>to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry Lee Lewis,
>but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good stuff with him.
>Plus, they site American Cultural Imperialism.

No they cite American Cultural Imperialism; they wouldn't object if it was
sited in the USA...


>I say NUKE-EM TILL THEY GLOW & SHOOT THEM IN THE DARK.
>
>If anyone does not belive this is humor can go and ...

Get upset?


>"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
>State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
>Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
>ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
>targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
>We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
>we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
>knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

"Game over man"

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:36:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Art

John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com> wrote:

>At 11:13 PM 2/17/1998 +0000, you wrote:
>>Can I just commendate Vanya (Danny) for adding a link to Mike Linsenmayer's
>>pages, and the great art he's done on a Traveller them to the 'not-the-IG
>>website'. Thanks - looks great.

>Yes, You can :)
>
>But it would be even better if you'd give the
>URL for the page you're taking the time to praise. ;)

But I've already bookmarked it so I *know* where it is... oh, I see...

Vanya's Not the IG pages are:

http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/default.html

The artwork's main site is Virtual Space Ineteractive

http://www.sure.net/~mike-l/index1.htm

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #185
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 18 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 186



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FFS2 - call for official errata
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Getting Stoned
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Support Your Local Author! (more or less off-topic)
My web page
Belters - Glisten
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: [TTL] My web page
Re: Eris saith
Re: My web page
re: water canopy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:26:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: FFS2 - call for official errata

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:

>	Which isn't? The number of support personnel or the mass of carried
>craft?
>Both should be there; the first included in the crew numbers, the second in
>the predesigned carried craft ...

Let me be a little less obtuse. Look at a normal (say fighter's) USD. It
doesn't have it's mass (just it's displacement). This means you have to
assume a typical mass if you want to calculate the number of support crew
for a predesigned carried craft. (Well, you could redesign it but that kind
of defeats the object..)


>>Michael Koehne suggested using 15 to 20 Tonnes per Displacment Ton as a
>>starting point. What's your opinion as writers of the supplement?
>
>	I believe we assumed an "average" density of 0.8 to 1.2 t/m3, or 11
>to 17
>tonnes per disp ton ... Yep, check p11.

Thanks...

>	HOWEVER! We never got to do playtesting to see if actual designs
>fell in
>that range... YMMV.

How about we get the ISBA crew to post mass per dT on the ISBA list?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:29:59 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote

> Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.

Well nobody from the Imperium seems to travel here are you sure we are
not Red Zoned ?

> Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
> saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?

Well skipping the physical stats I would say that the TML's UWP is

	A ???270-Z

Starport - People here build starships every week so obviously we have
an A port.

Population - Records show 100 + people on the list & 400 + on the
Digest, for a total of 500 +.  This is population level 2.

Government - No one government controls the TMl so obviously we are
government type 7 , Balkanized.  (Unless of course our secret Templar
puppet masters count as a government in which case we would be
government type 6.

Law Level - From the lack of control here I don't think I have to much
trouble justifying this one.

Tech Level - People here have knowledge & understanding of Ancient
Technology so our Tech Level is clearly at least Z :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:57:41 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes

To give you some idea of the scale of these freighters, the largest US 
warship will be the Nimitz class carrier (USS REAGAN, CVN-76) at 106,000 
register tons displacement.  A Nimitz is about 336 m (1092') long.  

By comparison, the largest supertanker c.1980 was the SS HAPPY GIANT
at 622,511.7 deadweight tons.  These measures arene't very compatible
and I estimate the gross register tonnage at 259,026 tons.  This tanker 
is 462 m (1505') long.




Definitions:

1 Gross register Ton = approx 100 ft^3

Dead Weight Tonnage = (Loaded - Light) Tonnage = Capacity in Long Tons
of 
Cargo

Displacement = Weight of water volume displced by ship = weight of ship.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:07:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

In mail you write:

>>> one in a typical astronomer conjured galaxy I'd say large scale astronomy
>>> is one of the weakest sciences around.
>>
>>
>>What if most of the matter in the universe is not stars but weak
>>protostars and brown dwarf?  Or just gas giants?  THAT is dark matter.
>>
>>Conjecture is never weak, it is just conjecture.  Until we getter better
>>astrronomy instruments we will not know.
>
> OK, astronomers come up with atheory for galaxy formation. Then they test
> it versus known physical laws such and find that their galaxies should blow
> apart.
> They could:
>
> 1) Think that perhaps their galaxy formation, estimate of galactic mass etc
> is in err
>
> 2) Invent a new kind of mass that doesn't interact trough light and doesn't
> correspond to anything detected that will save their theories. They dub
> this new type of mass as dark matter (no, dark matter isn't brown dwarfs,
> interstellar hydrogen etc - it doesn't interact with light at all, neither
> for observation nor heating/heat transfer.

Sorry, but you are confusing two *different* uses of the term "dark
matter". What you are referring to is the way the term is used in
*cosmology*. In regulat astronomy, the term simply means "any matter in
a galaxy that isn't a star or bright nebula". 

> Number 2 is IMO not allowed when doing science, you're not allowed to
> invent unobservable phenomena to save an experimantally unsound theory.

Galactic mass *can* be measured. You just measure the velocity of other
galaxies orbiting it.

Where dark matter comes in with *galaxies* is that the stars that are
visible don't add up to the *measured* mass. And the velocities that
they move at inside the galaxy (again, a *measured* quantity) also
indicate that there's more mass in the galaxy than just the stars. 

This "missing mass" isn't unreasonably large, and we already know of
(or at least have good reasons to believe in) various things like brown
dwarfs that *can* explain it. And if it doesn't exist then you have to
come up with an explanation for why the law of gravity works
differently at some scales than at others. That's a *lot* messier than
just "assuming" that there's stuff we can't see.

This *is* relevant to Traveller, as it makes a difference in how much
"stuff" is likely to be between stars.

The "dark matter" the *cosmologists* talk about amounts to something
like 90% of the mass of the universe. *That* is a "handwave" that even
*they* aren't comfortable with. They are only willing to consider it
because if the "observable" mass (which includes the "dark matter" in
galaxies!) isn't that high, certain details regarding the big bang get
*truly* bizarre.

There's apparently been some recent research that measures the relative
motiuon of galactic clusters or some other "large scale" phenomenom
that seems to indicate that the "cosmological dark matter" *doesn't*
exist. In which case it *will* be thrown out the window, and they'll
have to try to explain how we got the current universe from a much less
massive big bang.

It also means that the universe would be open, which means that it's
gonna last for a *long* time. No cycling back to a "Big Crunch".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:14:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

In mail you write:

> Really DUMB question, but...
>
>   If there was only one bang, and it was from a uniform singular mass, how
> and a galaxy collide with another, since they should be moving more or
> less the same speed, and from a common center shouldn't they?

The bang *cannot* have been 100% uniform or we wouldn't *have*
galaxies. Once you allow enough uneeveness to form large scale
structures, you'll have them moving relative to each other, Gravity
will do the rest.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:18:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

In mail you write:

>>But I can tell you from personal experience that a fist sized rock
>>*tossed casually* gave me several stitches and almost gave me a
>>concussion.
>>
>>Conside the skull as armor, and use the "blunt trauma damage" rules if
>>the rock can't penetrate.
>
> I know what you mean - I was hit by a practice granade, and if I hadn't
> seen it coming and flinched I would've lost teeth (as it was it hit in the
> shoulder, and I couldn't use my left arm for two days).

>>ps. the two inch  rock is just about the right size for a sling. And a
>>trainer slinger with a rock that size *will* kill you. :-)
>>
> IIRC the favoured projectile for a sling was a lead slug, about a inch in
> diameter, which would weigh about a hundred grams. These sling bullets
> killed a lot of people, even when they wore helmets.

A little known fact is that they actually tried bringing *back* the
sling for use in throwing grenades back around ther turn of the
century.

I suspect that a *favorite* weapon of troops on world with a TL such
that they still had well trained slingers, would be grenades (when they
could get them). Traders could make a lot of money that way.

I know that Roman slingers went for a "spin once and release" rather
than the more standard 3-5 spins. So they could get by with even
"short" delays on the grenades. Even if they get the grenade off a bit
late, they'll at least have a nice "airburst" over the enemy troops.

Heck, now that I think about it, this sounds effective enough to
explain *why* the Imperal Army would be interested in "low TL" units. 

How would *you* like attacking a position defended by a few dozen
slingers with an ample stock of grenades? They ought to be able to drop
a grenade at your feet at a hundred yards or more. 

Other "low tech" fighters combined with the "right" high tech supplies
will be dangerous. Heck, a company of trained longbowmen would be
dangerous to 20th century troops. (Note: the Army actually has
crossbows available for snipers!)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:49:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

In mail you write:

> Pinball, James, pinball!  A bounce here, a bounce there, and there's no
> telling what might happen. ;-> It *would* take a lucky shot. Say, have you
> heard the one about the bullet that penetrated a guy's skull, traveled
> *around* his brain and exited the other side?

Yep. 

Here's one for refs to use as justification for a *really*
lucky/unlucky character.

A guy sruck a .45 auto into his mouth and pulled the trigger. The
resulting muscle spasms resulted in the whole clip being fired. 

Believe it or not, he *survived*! The bullets went *between* the
hemispheres of the brain. They chewed the edges of of the hemispheres
up a bit, and removed most of the back of his skull. But no *serious*
brain damage occurred,. So he wound up with a metal plate in his head,
some reconstructive work on the inside of his mouth, and being a
failure at committing suicide.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:44:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:

>>Operating expenses (Based on 35 jumps/year and 90% utilization):
>>
>>Crew salaries:           66,315,000     (0.7%)
>>Crew life support:      154,070,000     (1.7%)
>>Passenger life supp.: 3,654,000,000     (39.9%)
>>Maintenance:             78,400,000     (0.9%)
>>Fuel (At Cr300/T):      315,000,000     (3.4%)
>>Payments & profit:    4,900,000,000     (53.4%)
>>-------------------------------
>>                      9,167,785,000     (100%)
>
>Okay, so this is based on surface-to-surface, Jump-1 travel, correct? What
>is the profit margin you are figuring (just curious)?

6.25% pa. This is what the bank gets so for simplicity I made the owner's
profit the same. Although this will give the owner a slightly higher
effective return than the bank, the owner is running a greater risk
(since in the event of bankruptcy, the bank gets the ship), so I don't
think it is unreasonable. And it sure is simpler than different rates
of return for the two parties.

>>Assuming the ship makes 35 jumps per year and is 90% full on the average,
>>it will carry 1,827,000 passengers each year. Dividing that up into the
>>yearly expenses will give you a cost of a Mid Passage of Cr 5,018.
>
>Okay, this is where things start to get tricky. The thing that generated
>this post [...]  was your post on passenger traffic levels. Would most
>routes have enough traffic on them to actually warrant one of these
>passenger liners?

Propably not. Which is why I didn't give the ship a class discount.

>At least in Regina's case, this doesn't seem to be so. With the nubers you
>posited, I don't think you could get a 90% occupancy on one of these liners
>in the Regina region -- the traffic levels simply don't allow it.

So we can conclude that such ships won't be seen in the Regina region. I
don't see a problem with this. You might find one on the Rhylanor-Porozlo
run.

>Of course, all of the numbers are squishy, but I thought they
>were pretty good estimates.

Thank you :-D

>So passenger liners in the 300,000+ ton range are restricted to routes
>between really high pop (9+) worlds within jump-1 of each other?

You could also have them on higher-jump routes. The crucial factor is
the number of passengers. Also, one ship will only allow departures
every 20 days. Even if you have that many passengers, it may be that
you'd have 20 ships one 20th the size instead. The tickets would be
slightly more expensive, but only a few percent.

>Assuming the Regina hub is relatively average in the Imperium (is it?

No, it is on the low end population-wise.

>I haven't looked at the Imperium in that closely), that would make big
>liners pretty rare, even given the economy of scale. Would you agree?

Yes.

Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com> writes:

>>Why would you have 58,000 people going from one world to another as a 
>>regular course of events?  I can't think of reasons.  Thoughts?  
>
>Pilgrimages, Migrant Workers, Gypsies, Package Tourists, Megacorporation
>Outings, Imigrants, Honey Moons, Invasion Force/Crusade.
>
>I would want darn good stewards on a ship of this class.  This mid passage
>thing seems like a means to get the ship more profitable.

Actually, I wouldn't propose such a ship for a Traveller module. Most
passenger liners would have a combination of large and small staterooms,
some of them capable of being combined into suites or fitted for double
occupancy, with enough cargo space to accomodate some High passengers.
They might also have some low berths and some bunks for Fast passengers
and Steerage passengers. The reason why I designed the ship for Mid
passengers only is that it makes it a lot easier to calculate the true
cost of a ticket. I've done a whole set of 600 T ship designs for each
jump distance from 1 to 6, each dedicated to one kind of passengers (ie.
a ship with 1 T of cargo space per passenger and 1 steward per 8 passengers
for High Passengers, another ship with negligible cargo space and 1 steward
per 50 passengers for Mid Passengers, a ship with small staterooms for
what I call "Economy" Passengers, a ship with Low Berths and 1 medic per 20
berths for Low Passengers, and a ship with bunks only for what I call
"Steerage" Passengers) and used them to calculate reasonable ticket prices
(I posted them not so long ago). But for a true "Gigantic Class Passenger
Liner" I'd use a combination of berths.

>If it were not mid passengers then you would need to find 29,000 passengers
>paying the usual rate 10,000 and still be better off than 5018cr per ticket.

The point is that unless you have some way of keeping off unwelcome
competition (like a cartel or government interference), jump-1 High
Passages would not _stay_ at Cr10,000. If it's possible to provide
the same service at a lower cost and still make a living, sooner or
later someone will provide that service. Any measures to prevent such
competition from operating would be part of a specific political
setup and should therefor be visible to the referee, so that he can
use the rules even if he changes the political setup for his own
campaign.

>The only problem comes with filling the ship - 3625 Stewards level 8 would
>probably do this, gaining a minimum of 8 passengers per steward, but I do
>not know if this old rule was cumulative.

The old rule applies to Free Traders coming into starport and trying to
scrounge up a few passengers, not to regularily scheduled passengers
liners.

Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

>I always thought that the 10,000/8000 Cr High/Middle split was a little
>strange.

So have I, but I came up with an explanation for the imperium. IMTU
High/Middle/Low passages don't exist outside the Imperium and the system
is strained in the Classic Era:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HIGH, MID, AND LOW PASSAGE
High, Mid, and Low passages are not tickets. They are travel vouchers issued
by various Imperial institutions and a number of licenced private institutions
(mostly megacorporations). By Imperial law any High Passage voucher must be
accepted by any ship licenced to carry passengers as full payment for a High 
Passage ticket, regardless of the length of the jump. Likewise the Mid and
Low Passage must be accepted as payment for Mid and Low Passage tickets. The 
ship captain can then exchange the voucher for the price of the ticket at any 
Class A or B starport. For starships with a flexible attitude to ticket 
prices (ie. tramp ships) the law imposes a maximum reimbursement of 
Crimp10,000 for a High Passage, Crimp8,000 for a Mid Passage, and Crimp2000 
for a Low Passage, unless they can document expenses that warrants a higher
price.

Often a passenger who is about to use a ticket to take a jump-1 or jump-2
trip will try to sell his High or Mid Passage to someone who plans to take a
jump-3 trip. Such trades are technically illegal, but the Imperium usually
ignore it. The going rate is around Crimp9,000 for a High Passage and 
Crimp7,200 for a Mid Passage.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You might as well see another idea of mine while I'm at it:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOT PASSAGE
Hot Passage is slang for a type of passage that unscrupulous starship
captains sometimes offer. It consists of two passengers sharing the same
berth turn and turn about ("hot bunking"). This is illegal because it means
exceeding the ship's life support rating and the ship's number of emergency 
low berths. The way it usually works, a passenger whose trip is paid for by 
his employers will pay in full and get a reciept for the full amount. The 
captain then sells the spot to another traveller for 50-60% of the usual 
cost. He pays half the amount to the first passenger and shares the rest with 
the purser.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't done the calculations for Fast Passage (travelling while under the
influence of Fast Drug), but I will when I get around to it.

Bolie Williams IV writes:

>All of this talk of prices of passage ignores one fundamental issue.

Exactly. I ignore it because it is impossible to give any meaningful
rules for it.

>The price of anything is independant of the cost.

Not independent. _Someone_ has to pay the cost. Violating that law is
no more possible than violating a physical law (in fact, in a way you
can say that it is a manifestation of the laws of thermodynamics ;-).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:14:11 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Support Your Local Author! (more or less off-topic)

I need help. I'm irresponsible with sharp objects and firearms, hopeless
with money and my only friends are you lot....

(Not all of the above is true. My cats are quite fond of me.)

Anyway:
I've just published a new novel electronically. What I need to do is to
publicise it a bit. If anyone wants to do a review for newsgroups, web
sites or anywhere else, please get in touch with me. What you get is one
(electronic) copy and my undying gratitude. The very most unlucky reviewers
get to have my other stuff tried out on them.

Regards, 

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:18:19 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: My web page

I've gotten a lot of messages from people saying they can't get to my
Traveller pages to download the FF&S spreadsheet...they are correct. My ISP
is in the middle of a corporate merger, and their web server is moving
(physically). Thus, the thing is crewed up right now. I'm working with them
to find out when it'll be up, and I'll let everyone know.

Sorry about the inconvience.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:32:43 -0500
From: Michael Stasica <stosh@netopia.net>
Subject: Belters - Glisten

>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:38:17 -0500
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Belters (Re: Starting a new thread)

 BIG snip

>profits.
>
>Enough!
>
>Pete
>

Nice piece. Thank you for sharing it.

STOSH

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:59:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) writes:

>David Golden wrote:
>
>>        REALLY????? Where can I find such a member of the opposite sex? I like
>>them tall, well educated, intelligent, non-anorexic figure, and preferably
>>not too ditzy.

   You've just described Paula Poundstone...   

>I know it doesn't seem like it most of the time, but the TML is NOT meant
>to be a dating service!  Knock it off, people!  Really.  Enough is enough!

   When you consider that the male to female ratio on this list is something
like 500:1 or worse, if you are here to pick up women, you are *really* in
the wrong bar.  If you were Elton John on the other hand....

Regards,

Harold

P.S. If it's got a schwing, it ain't my thing.  I prefer fish to tube steak.

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:17:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: [TTL] My web page

On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Andrew Akins wrote:

> I've gotten a lot of messages from people saying they can't get to my
> Traveller pages to download the FF&S spreadsheet...they are correct. My ISP
> is in the middle of a corporate merger, and their web server is moving
> (physically). Thus, the thing is crewed up right now. I'm working with them
                                   ^ At what level of automation? :)

> to find out when it'll be up, and I'll let everyone know.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:22:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Eris saith

Loren Wiseman writes:

>Eris said:
>
>> Say, have you heard the one about the bullet that penetrated a guy's skull, 
>> traveled *around* his brain and exited the other side?
>
>No, but if you hum a few bars I can fake it...
>
>Not that one, but a similar case is mentioned in the biography of premier
>forensic pathologist Dr Milton Hepburn, "Where Death Delights..."

<snip>

>Ya can't make up stuff this strange...

   Then there was the case, supposedly true, of the soldier that had one of
the testicles shot off during a battle during the American Civil War.  The
round continued on and struck a young woman, who was part of a group of
civilians who were observing the fight, in the lower abdomen.

   That's right--she got pregnant, and nine months later gave birth.  It is
said the woman and the soldier were later married.

   Gives a whole new meaning to artifical insemination, eh?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:30:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: My web page

Andrew Akins said:
> I've gotten a lot of messages from people saying they can't get to my
> Traveller pages to download the FF&S spreadsheet...they are correct. My ISP
> is in the middle of a corporate merger, and their web server is moving
> (physically). Thus, the thing is crewed up right now. I'm working with them
> to find out when it'll be up, and I'll let everyone know.

I have a copy of his spreadsheet on my archive... :)

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/spreadsheets/

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 884-6766
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:33:11 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: water canopy

deadeye@ebicom.net chipped in:

>I think the ancients just had an underwater world with grav generators
>to create airable land.  The ocean was suspended abouve.  When the
>batteries finally died splash.

>Noah saw from his little strip indicator on the package of the battery
>it was getting low:)


Nice image!  Thank you.  :-)


Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com then wrote:

>What you are refering to as a "Water Canopy" is an explanation used by
>fundamentalist Christians (and, potentially I supposed, Muslims and Jews)


Ah!  Well good to know it's source....


>to account for a literal interpretation of the flood myth of Genesis. It
is
>not based on known science.


...although disappointing to find it's not based on any science.

I wonder how creationists 'justify' it.  No, forget I asked that.  Might
start a TML deluge.


>Anyway, although as commonly described it is scientifically impossible, if
>you are looking for a similar situation there are some possibililties you
>can use.


<possibilities snipped>

Thanks, this was the kind of thing I was looking for.


shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) mentioned:

tc>> a) how would a planet 'develop' such a canopy
le>It wouldn't. Water doesn't "float" on air.


This makes sense.  I have to admit I'd kind of imagined supersaturated air.

Or how about outside the atmosphere altogether.  But you go on to neatly
demolish these...

<nifty demolition snipped>

<snip of subsequent Analog story>

Thanks again, this is the kind of thing I was assuming TML would know
about!


But I guess no water canopy...

Any chance we can create a pseudo-science that would manage it?  We can do
it for jump drives...

Thanks for the input everyone, however.



tc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #186
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 18 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 187



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Fifth Frontier War Starship Production System  (Long!!)
re: Space Travel as related to Terran Sea Crossings 
Re: Eris saith
re: Eris saith
Re: CD ROM
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183
(Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?
Re: Eris saith

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:04:20 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

>kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
>
>>Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.
>>Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
>>saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?

Definitely Non-Charismatic Dictatorship.

<whisper> I don't think IT would like it if we called it that, though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:16:49 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Fifth Frontier War Starship Production System  (Long!!)

Before I start, I tried to send this from home and it seems to be floating
out there in cyberspace.

All right you guys.  Here it is.  My first real attempt at getting the TML
to critique some of my work.  Just remember these factsIm over forty,
overweight and balding and I still love the heck out of playing Traveller.
So you just better be nice.  Constructive criticism is always appreciated.
Flames will be looked at and then ignored.  Anyway,  here goes.

NOTE:  Some of this information may be already published in a post 1983
publication since my information pre-dates MT, TNE and T4.  Ive already
seen comments that the SDB Matrix may be outdated.  Please correct as
appropriate and supply me with corrections. If the SDB Matrix is to be
considered incorrect, the remainder of the information can be used as is. 

NOTE:  Areas of speculation and honest attempts to further develop this
system are shown by an asterisk. 




Fifth Frontier War Starship Production System
(5FW-SPS)



The Flow

1.  Determine the number of system Defense Boat Squadrons
2.  Determine the number of Capital Starship Squadrons
3.  Determine Base Combat Factors and Modify
4.  Determine Jump Drive Number and Modify
5.  Determine Streamlining and Modify
6.  Determine Troop Capacity
7.  5 FW Counter Format 



1.0  System Defense Boat Squadron Production

Before a world can develop capital ships, it must develop and build its 
planetary defense force (PDF) or its system defense boat  (SDB) squadrons.
The SDB or SB squadron becomes the backbone of the PDF.  The number of
squadrons available at any given time are determined by the Tech Level and
the Population of the home world with some modification based upon its Trade
Rating and other information.  The numbers of squadrons is then used to
determine the number of capital ship squadrons that may be built by the home
world.  A squadron of SDBs is usually ten to twenty boats.  A capital ship
squadron is between four and ten ships. 

SDB Squadron Matrix

Pop      2     3     4     5     6   |   7     8     9     A
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
TL
7   |    -     -     -     -     -   |   1     5     50    5c

8   |    -     -     -     -     -   |   1     5     50    5c

9   |    -     -     -     -     -   |   1     10    1c    1k

A   |    -     -     -     1*    1*  |   1     10    1c    1k

B   |    -     -     -     1 *   1*  |   1     12    120   12c

C   |    -     -     -     1*    1*  |   1     12    120   12c

D   |    1     1     1     1     1   |   1     15    150   15c

E   |    1     1     1     5     5   |   5     15    150   15c

F*  |    1     1     5     10    12  |   15*   20    2c    2k
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
G*  |    1     5     5     10    12  |   15    20    2c    2k*

H*  |    1     5     10    12    15  |   20    50    5c    3k*



*SDB Matrix Trade Modifiers*


Row Shifts:  (Down  +ve,  Up  -ve)

Agricultural  (AG)    -3

Non-industrial  (NI)    -2

Nonagricultural  (NA)  -1

Poor  (PO)    -1

Rich  (RI)    +1

Industrial  (IN)    +1

Vacuum  (VA)    +1

Water  (WA)    +1

Asteroid Belt  (AS)    +1

Planetary Military Installation  (M)   +1

Research Station  (RS)    +1

Imperial Reserve  (IR)    +1

Prison  (PR)    +1



Column Shifts:  (Right   +ve;  Left  -ve)

Capital  (CA)    +1

Naval Base  (N)    +1

Scout Base  (S)    +1

Depot  (D)    +2

A Starport    +2

B Starport    +1

D Starport    -1

E Starport    -2

X Starport    -3

NOTE:  Imperial Interdicted Planets (Red Zones) may have SDB Squadrons in
place due to Imperial Policy.

There will always be a minimum of one SDB squadron for worlds with TL 7+ and
Pop 7+,  TL A+ and Pop 5+, and TL D+ and Pop 2+, population being the
determining factor.  SDB Squadrons may only be built at A, B or C Starports.
This does not preclude a lesser starport from having SDB squadrons based
upon the ability to transport SDBs via Jump Shuttles and  SDB Riders.



2.0  Capital Starship Squadron Production

Once the number of SDB Squadrons are determined, the process for building
capital ship squadrons begins.  The total number of SDB squadrons determines
the total number of ship squadrons.  Starships can only be produced at A or
B starports.  Cruiser-rons will always be the first type of squadron built,
followed by battle-rons.  The building of a battle-ron does not take into
account that the squadron could be a battle rider squadron.  Each capital
ship squadron has a production value associated with it.  These values may
be used to exchange for other squadron types.  Production of starship
squadrons starts at TL 9.  Monitors may be built at TL 7 or better, using
the numbers based upon the TL 9 Column.

REMEMBER:  The first squadron built will always be a cruiser-ron.

Squadron Type		Production Value	Notes

Cruiser-ron  (CR)	1

Battle-ron  (BR)	1

Assault-ron  (AR)	2

Tanker-ron  (TR)*	3

Monitor-ron  (PR)*	2/3

Scout-ron  (SR)*	1/2			Scout base reqd

Mercenary-ron  (MR)*	1/2


*While monitors are considered planetary defense ships,  they are considered
capital ships due to their size and thus are considered part of the
production schedule.  As described in CT Books 2 and 5,  CT Supplements 7
and 9, and The Traveller Book, starship production takes between 36 and 60
months, modified by similar class production.  While this is beyond the
purview of the game "Fifth Frontier War,"  this system can be used to
simulate the spending of credits for starship production and the development
of current and new starship classes over a period of years of campaigning.*

Capital Ship Production Matrix

TL 	9	A	B	C	D	E	F	G*	H*
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - -  
SDBs

1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1
	
5	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	2

10	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	2	2

12	1	1	1	1	1	2	2	2	2

15	1	1	1	2	2	2	2	2	2	

20	1	1	2	2	2	2	2	2	2

50	1	2	2	2	2	2	2	2	3

1c	2	2	2	2	2	2	2	3	3

120	2	2	2	2	2	3	3	3	3

150	2	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	4

2c	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	4	4

5c	2	3	3	3	3	4	4	4	5

1k	3	3	3	3	4	4	4	5	5

12c	3	3	4	4	4	5	5	5	6

15c	3	4	4	4	5	5	5	6	6

2k	4	4	4	5	5	5	6	6	6

3k	4	4	5	5	5	6	6	6	7


Capital Ship Production Modifiers*

AG         -3
NI         -2
NA         -1
PO         -1
RI         +1
IN         +1
VA         +1
WA         +1		
AS         +1
Capitol    +1
Naval Base +1
Scout Base +1
Depot      +4



3.0  Determine Combat Factors



3.1.  Defense Factor  (DF)

The Defense Factor is used to start building the squadron.  This is
determined by the world population code minus two plus any listed modifiers.
This is the basic factor and according to a 1983 letter from Marc Miller,
represents the number of capital ships available to the squadron.  Comments
on this later.

DF  =  Pop Code  -  2  +  Modifiers

DF Modifiers*

TL 10 or less     -2
TL  11 or more    -1
TL  13 or more    +1
TL  15 or more    +2
TL  17 or more    +3
AG                -3
NI                -2
PO                -1
NA                -1
RI                +1
IN                +1
WA                +1
VA                +1
AS                +1
Capitol           +1
Naval Base        +1
Scout Base	  +1
Depot             +4

DFs may be used to create attack factors and or bombardment factors.

By Substitution    2 DF   <  --  >   1 AF

		   2 DF   <  --  >   1 BF



3.2  Attack Factor  (AF)

The next combat factor developed is the Attack Factor (AF).  Fractional
remainders will be dropped.  The AF for battle-rons and monitor-rons is 2/3
the DF plus trade modifiers.  The AF for cruiser-rons is  the DF plus trade
modifiers.  All fractional remainders are dropped.

BR and PRs:	AF  =  2/3DF  +  Trade Modifiers

CRs:    	AF  =  1\2DF  +  Trade Modifiers

MRs*:		AF  =  TL Modifier of home world above TL13*

Modifiers*

AG              -3
NI              -2
PO              -1
NA              -1
RI              +1
IN              +1
WA              +1
VA              +1
AS              +1
Capitol         +1
Naval Base      +1
Scout Base	+1
Depot           +4

AFs may be used to create bombardment factors and/or defense factors.

By substitution:    1 AF  <  --  >  1 BF

		    1 AF  <  --  >  2 DFs

*Comments:  I have always regarded the AF as the number of auxiliary and
escort squadrons associated with the capital ship squadron.  These starships
would be ships of 5000 dT or less.  The number represents a number of
squadrons to a factor of ten.  Thus  an AF of 2 would represent 100
squadrons or between 400 and 1000 additional starships involved with the
squadron.  I realize that this is a huge range but would say four fleet
cruisers operate entirely by themselves?  I think not.  I see destroyers,
escorts, fast couriers, jump cutters, maintenance ships, etc, etc. involved
with a capital ship squadron.*



3.3  Bombardment Factor  (BF)

The bombardment factor is the last combat factor to be developed.  A
battle-ron, mercenary-ron, monitor-ron and scout-ron BF is 1\2 the DF plus
trade modifiers.  A cruiser-ron BF is 1/3 the DF plus trade modifiers.  All
fractional remainders are dropped.

BR, MR, PR and SRs:	BF  =  1\2DF   +  Trade Modifiers

CRs:			BF  =  1\3DF  +  Trade Modifiers

Modifiers*

AG           -3
NI           -2
PO           -1
NA           -1
RI           +1
IN           +1
WA           +1
VA           +1
AS           +1
Capitol      +1
Navy Base    +1
Scout Base   +1 
Depot        +4

BFs may be used to create attack factors and/or defense factors.

By substitution:    1 BF  <  --  >  1 AF

		    1 BF  <  --  >  2 DFs

*Comments:  I have always seen the bombardment factor to represent those
starships and non-starships that are capable of attacking the surface of a
planet.  For the most part, I view these as the ubiquitous "fighters" of the
squadron or fleet.  (I dont want to restart the Fighter Vs Capital
Ship/Battleship/BattleRider, etc. thread.)  Fighters and other assault craft
would have to be streamlined/airframe type craft to support the landing of
troops on the surface of a planet.  If I recall the tenant of strategy I
learned while in the service, it takes the infantry to hold territory where
fire power takes it from the enemy.  Nuff said.  Hats off to the infantry.
You guys have and had the toughest job of all services.  You had an
opportunity to take and keep, as well as bleed and weep.*


Please note:   Through this whole process, the Scout squadrons do not get an
attack factor, while the Assault and the Tanker squadrons do not get an
attack or a bombardment factor.  Time to consider fleet make-up when playing
5FW.



4.0  Jump Drive Installation

Jump drives are installed based upon the maximum TL of the home world.  The
TL also determines what Jump Drive number that each squadron may "start out" at.

TL             Max Jump Drive	Starting Point

9		J1		J1
A		J1		J1
B		J2		J1
C		J3		J1
D		J4		J2   AR,TR    	    J1 All others
E		J5		J2   AR,CR,TR	    J1 All others
F		J6		J3   AR,CR,MR,SR,TR J1 BR
G*		*		*J4  AR,TR          J3 CR, etc  J2  BR
H*		*		*J4  AR,CR,TR       J3 MR,SR    J2  BR

All Mercenary and Scout-rons start at J2  and are maximized at TL 9 or
greater.  *At TL C or greater they start at J2 and may attain the listed
maximum Jump number.  At TL F or greater, follow the listed instructions.*

As an explanation,  at TL D(13), starships have a maximum jump drive
capability of J4.  The AR and TR squadrons will be initially planned with a
J2 capability while all others start out with J1.

The jump number of a particular squadron is increased up to its maximum by
substitution, using the following formulas:

By Substitution:	2 AF   < -- >  1 jump #

			2 BF   < -- >  1 jump #

			4 DF  < -- >   1 jump #

Monitor squadrons do not have jump capability.  Maneuver drives are not
considered in this format.



5.0  Streamlining

5FW Starships are considered streamlined, partially streamlined or
non-streamlined.  Streamlining has a value and a multiplier based upon the
squadron type which is then used to reduce the defense factor of the
squadron.  Streamlining has its costs.

Streamline Value  x  Squadron Value  =  DF reduction

Streamline	Squadron
Value		Value

non      0  	BR	2
part     1	TR	2
stream   2	AR	1
		CR	1
		PR*	2\3
		SR	1\2
		MR*	1\2



6.0  Troop Capacity  (Battalions Carried)

Type	Full Strength	Half Strength

AR	6c		3c
BR	20		10
CR	DF		1\2DF
MR*	1\2DF		1\4DF

All other ship squadrons are not capable of carrying troops.



7.0  Determining Squadron Counter Formats

The standard 5FW  counter format for a squadron shows the squadron type and
jump number (TJ) in the upper left corner, its refueling code (RF) in the
upper right corner, the ship outline in the center, and the combat values
along the bottom of the counter.  The combat values are listed as Attack
Factor (AF), Bombardment Factor (BF) and Defense Factor (DF).  The reverse
of the counter has the half strength values.

Like this:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
|  TJ                       RF |
|                              |
|           $ $ $              |
|                              |
|                              |
|        AF - BF - DF          |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -




Thanks for your patience on this long one.  Hope this is enjoyable and
generates some discussion.  Now for another cuppa Joe!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Frontiers Enterprises.  Portions
of this material are Copyright 1977-1996 Far Futures Enterprises.  Use of
the trademark and related materials by this author is not intended to
infringe upon or devalue the trademark.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric T. Holmes
holmberg@thuntek.net

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:20:19 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Space Travel as related to Terran Sea Crossings 

Rob Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not necessarily.  Look at the Polynesians, for example. Or the trade
between India and the Fertile Crescent. Phoenecians to Britain, Chinese in
the Pacific, Norse all over the place...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Aye, these early traders ranged far and wide - but I was making the comparison between interstellar travel and the crossing of the Atlantic (which I, being incredibly Euro-America Centric, didn't spell out). The Phoenicians and the Indian Ocean traders were almost entirely coastal traders, able to put in to shore on a daily basis if necessary. Not to say their voyages weren't remarkable - the traders who would take a five year voyage as a matter of course, with a wife and family at each end of the trip. 

Relate my previous post to a culture with a land-based point of view, such as the Europeans, and the comparison is more accurate - seafaring cultures like the Polynesians and Norse Explorers would be far different (perhaps even serving as analog-examples for how non-human aliens or minor human alien races would think of space travel).

Note how the English, Russians, French, etc. once saw the Norsemen - frightening creatures that could come out of the unknown depths of the sea to ravage your home and then vanish over the unreachable horizon. A very different mind-set than that held by Columbus, Magellan or the other famous explorers from later on.


Walt Smith
- --------------------------------
There's a reason they call the RCES "Star Vikings"..."From the fury of the Norsemen, Protect us, o Lord!" - 12c English prayer.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:26:45 -0500
From: Generic Joe <genericjoe@vnet.net>
Subject: Re: Eris saith

Harold D. Hale wrote:
> 
> Loren Wiseman writes:
> 
> >Eris said:
> >
> >> Say, have you heard the one about the bullet that penetrated a guy's skull,
> >> traveled *around* his brain and exited the other side?
> >
> >No, but if you hum a few bars I can fake it...
> >
> >Not that one, but a similar case is mentioned in the biography of premier
> >forensic pathologist Dr Milton Hepburn, "Where Death Delights..."
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >Ya can't make up stuff this strange...
> 
>    Then there was the case, supposedly true, of the soldier that had one of
> the testicles shot off during a battle during the American Civil War.  The
> round continued on and struck a young woman, who was part of a group of
> civilians who were observing the fight, in the lower abdomen.
> 
>    That's right--she got pregnant, and nine months later gave birth.  It is
> said the woman and the soldier were later married.
> 
>    Gives a whole new meaning to artifical insemination, eh?
> 
Yeah I heard about that guy, grew up to be a part time fan, part time
trumpeteer.

He was one rootin' tootin' son of a gun.
- -- 
Generic Joe
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Generic Joe's Journal -- A-typical Male's Journal
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2729

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:28:20 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Eris saith

Harold Hale wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
   Then there was the case, supposedly true, of the soldier that had one of
the testicles shot off during a battle during the American Civil War.  The
round continued on and struck a young woman, who was part of a group of
civilians who were observing the fight, in the lower abdomen.

   That's right--she got pregnant, and nine months later gave birth.  It is
said the woman and the soldier were later married.

   Gives a whole new meaning to artifical insemination, eh?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think it's more likely the "civilians observing the fight" were camp followers (i.e. prostitutes & mistresses) and the lady in question got pregnant the old-fashioned way.

"Doctor, I just _couldn't_ be pregnant. I'm a decent woman, I'd _never_ do such a thing."
Doctor: "Right, right...OK, we'll say the bullet did it..."

Union General Hooker, while in charge of New Orleans, always had some mistresses around his office. When a visitor would ask, "Who are they?", the aides would respond "They're Hooker's". And so the slang term was born....


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:47:40 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: CD ROM

In a message dated 2/17/98 10:40:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com writes:

[[ Hi
   Do you need a cheque for $15 or so to show interest ?  I will have to make
special arrangements as I am in the UK.]] In this case I think I can arrange
an exchange with Andy Lilly, you'd pay him and he'd owe me one or two CORE
products. Eventually CORE will be able to reproduce it locally.
 
    Suggestions for the CD

	[PDF for Errata etc for CT/MT/ERA/T4/T4.1/Gurps Character Sheets and Forms in
PDF for the above  Note I have one or two handdrawn character sheets that seem
to add a certain atmosphere to the game.] There are some forms curently in
WordPerfect format on the disk (guess I better change them to RTF, or PDF if I
can arrange it). There is also some errata. If I can get people to send me the
rest (mostly TNE so far), it'll make it on this disk.

 
	[There used to be a Trading program for the MAC that was advertised in old
JTAS magazines.] There's the Apple version on the disk (mostly converted to
IBM basic).

 
	[With Permission from BITS and Timothy Collison -  a database of the
Traveller Bilbiography.] Maybe at a later date..

      
	[With Permission - Andrew Atkins Spreadsheet.] It's on the way.

 
	[PDF format of the Judges Guild Refs Screen ?] At a later date maybe. Need to
find out who owns the copyright to it.

 
	[MegaTraveller GM Aid V2.00 or higher if there is one.  By Dennis G Landsem,
1992.] Already on the disk

 
	[Details about MAC emulation software for PCs as some of the programs run on
Macs.] It's on the traveller archives. If someone digs it out, I'll put it as
a seperate file though.


 
[[Copyright Query
        Yep all created work has copyright of the author. for instance all
postings that I have done are protected by UK law.
        However, as they are posted to a mailing list they have been published
not for profit.  Therefore IMO, if someone publishes them again without making
profit then the authors probably wont mind.
       I would feel it unlikely that someone would object to the idea.]] No
one has yet.... And if I could find someway to pay the donaters I would. But
than I'd have to charge significantly more for the disk.
	Right now I figure it costs me $25 to produce a disk (time and hardware
costs). I need to sell 30-40 just to recoup hardware expenses. So far I only
expect maybe 20-25. It's a test of sorts, if there's enough demand it will
continue, it'll get better. And more old traveller material will make it on,
but it will never be a major money generator considering the time invested.
 
 
  
Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:50:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183

On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:

> At 07
> >From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
> >>   Oh my God!  The outside world made some poor student to come in here and
> >observe us.
> 
> <report fragment>
> 
> >  It truly worries me that these people may have access
> >to bell towers and firearms, or worse yet, members of the opposite sex
> >willing to breed with them.  This group represents the single most
> >convincing argument for sterlizing the mentally ill that I have ever seen.
> 
> I have a 2 year old daughter. One of her favorite games is to sit down with
> a pad of paper, a pen, a calculator and my copy of FFS, and draw on the
> paper, and press buttons on the calculator. Just like Daddy.

AHA! The True Identity of Ditzie Spofulam is revealed at last!!! 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 1998 11:56 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

Here we are, re-hashing Starports yet again.  The sad thing is,
I can't quite remember which theories were set forth last time.
I've got them here somewhere... I know I posted a couple of 
them, maybe I deleted them because they were too hokey...

Well, can we gather the best theories of starport capacity,
layout, sizes, facilities et al and build them into a FAQ?
It's qualifying as a Frequent one alright...

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:06:52 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eris saith

OH....PLEASE....I will NOT believe that Civil War tall tale without
documentation. No offense to the person that posted it is intended.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #187
**********************************

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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 18 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 188



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Support Your Local Author! (more or less off-topic)
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Support Your Local Author! (more or less off-topic)
Target Practice
Re: Templars (was Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?)
Re: Getting Stoned
World generation Modifications
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Getting Stoned
Re: Getting Stoned
Re: Getting Stoned
Re: Target Practice
TML UWP [was ...UNSUBSCRIBE]
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: MT Errata

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:44:46 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >> >The French, sadly, will never be fully integrated with anybody except
> >> >themselves.
> >> You're reminding me of the 'Yes Minister' sketch when the UK Civil
> >Service
> >> admit that the real reason for a British Nuclear Deterent is because
of
> >the
> >> French.
> >And your point being?
> Point? Point? Who said there had to be a point...?

You do.

> >As everyone in the English Speaking World knows the
> >French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video.
> We *know* McDonalds survived (just became renamed 'Starport Bar (tm)') as
> Famille Spofulam gave us the information.

Well, if we do not protect McDonalds now, then how can it evolve into the
starport bar of the far future?

> >Add
> >to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry Lee
Lewis,
> >but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good stuff with him.
> >Plus, they site American Cultural Imperialism.
> No they cite American Cultural Imperialism; they wouldn't object if it
was
> sited in the USA...

That is true.
 
> >I say NUKE-EM TILL THEY GLOW & SHOOT THEM IN THE DARK.
> >
> >If anyone does not belive this is humor can go and ...
> Get upset?

There is that. 
 
> >"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
> >State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
> >Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
> >ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
> >targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
> >We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
> >we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
> >knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)
> "Game over man"

Thank you.
 
> Dom

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:05:02 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Support Your Local Author! (more or less off-topic)

> From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> I need help. I'm irresponsible with sharp objects and firearms, hopeless
> with money and my only friends are you lot....
> 
> (Not all of the above is true. My cats are quite fond of me.)
> 
> Anyway:
> I've just published a new novel electronically. What I need to do is to
> publicise it a bit. If anyone wants to do a review for newsgroups, web
> sites or anywhere else, please get in touch with me. What you get is one
> (electronic) copy and my undying gratitude. The very most unlucky
reviewers
> get to have my other stuff tried out on them.

Thats nice, so what is the URL?

> Regards, 
> 
> MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:48:47 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> > Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone,
probably.
> Well nobody from the Imperium seems to travel here are you sure we are
> not Red Zoned ?

Is there a travel zone worse than a red zone?  Because not the Aslan will
venture here.

> > Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with
out
> > saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?
> Well skipping the physical stats I would say that the TML's UWP is
> 
> 	A ???270-Z
> Starport - People here build starships every week so obviously we have
> an A port.

Yes, but do they all work?

> Population - Records show 100 + people on the list & 400 + on the
> Digest, for a total of 500 +.  This is population level 2.

Ok.

> Government - No one government controls the TMl so obviously we are
> government type 7 , Balkanized.  (Unless of course our secret Templar
> puppet masters count as a government in which case we would be
> government type 6.

Right...

Although, I do think it should be 0.

> Law Level - From the lack of control here I don't think I have to much
> trouble justifying this one.

Hey, we have some control.

> Tech Level - People here have knowledge & understanding of Ancient
> Technology so our Tech Level is clearly at least Z :)

Or higher.

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:05:02 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Support Your Local Author! (more or less off-topic)

> From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> I need help. I'm irresponsible with sharp objects and firearms, hopeless
> with money and my only friends are you lot....
> 
> (Not all of the above is true. My cats are quite fond of me.)
> 
> Anyway:
> I've just published a new novel electronically. What I need to do is to
> publicise it a bit. If anyone wants to do a review for newsgroups, web
> sites or anywhere else, please get in touch with me. What you get is one
> (electronic) copy and my undying gratitude. The very most unlucky
reviewers
> get to have my other stuff tried out on them.

Thats nice, so what is the URL?

> Regards, 
> 
> MJD.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 1998 12:44 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Target Practice

Ever since I saw that body-outline/transparent overlay
combat system, I have been trying to shoehorn it into
Traveller combat.  Here's what I have so far:

1) The target: I photocopied the picture of the battle-
   dressed marine in MT's _Imperial Encyclopedia_ (or
   is that _Ref's Companion_?), and enlarged it.

2) The sight: I created a 12-ring target pattern in an
   8"x8" area, with a 0.5"-diameter bullseye in the center.
   The rings I subdivided into 12 sections.  The outer
   ring numbers the sections, clockwise from 12 o'clock:

	1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c

   The next ring is numbered, clockwise from 12 o'clock:

	2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c 1

   Next from 12: 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c 1 2

   Et cetera, until the innermost ring is labelled:

	c 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b

   The bullseye is not sectioned.

3) Aim.  Center the bullseye over the spot aimed for.

4) Roll to hit as usual.  If the roll is a miss, then
   the amount by which the shot missed is the ring
   position out from the center, while the roll itself
   is the section of the ring which the shot went through.
   A miss may still hit.

   It seems to make it easier to hit people.  Perhaps there
   needs to be a -DM to the roll.

5) Damage.  I haven't thought a lot about it, but how about

	Arms, Legs	  : STR
	Hands, Feet, Head : DEX
	Middle		  : END
	Weapon		  : weapon hit, possibly damaged.

Opinions?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:09:14 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Templars (was Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?)

At 11:33 PM 2/17/98 -0900, [DELETED} wrote:

>I believe we have uncovered true extent of the Templar sphere of
>influence.

Pay no mind to the sad rantings here.  Go watch a FOX reality special.
Listen to the soothing buzz.  There are no Templars, We don't control the
Imperium...

Love, 
The Templars

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:26:51 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

At 10:49 PM 2/17/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Pinball, James, pinball!  A bounce here, a bounce there, and there's no
>> telling what might happen. ;-> It *would* take a lucky shot. Say, have you
>> heard the one about the bullet that penetrated a guy's skull, traveled
>> *around* his brain and exited the other side?
>
>Yep. 
>
>Here's one for refs to use as justification for a *really*
>lucky/unlucky character.
>
>A guy sruck a .45 auto into his mouth and pulled the trigger. The
>resulting muscle spasms resulted in the whole clip being fired. 
>
>Believe it or not, he *survived*! The bullets went *between* the
>hemispheres of the brain. They chewed the edges of of the hemispheres
>up a bit, and removed most of the back of his skull. But no *serious*
>brain damage occurred,. So he wound up with a metal plate in his head,
>some reconstructive work on the inside of his mouth, and being a
>failure at committing suicide.

LAPD officer was struggling with a suspect who was armed with a .22 pistol.
 The gun went off, hitting the officer in the foot.  Withing ten minutes he
was dead from shock.

At Khe Sanh in 1968, a NVA sapper was hit with atleast three rounds from a
.50cal macine gun at close range.  The man stood up, and walked away.

One of my police friends told me about a SFPD officer who was accused of
shooting a suspect in the back.  After an investigation, it turned out that
the officer's shot had entered the subject's open mouth and penetrated the
back of his neck cleanly.

Things like this make me wonder why I'm trying to design a combat system.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:30:33 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: World generation Modifications

Heres an idea thats been flying around in my head for some time now. I
felt that the world generation system, that was well adapted to CT and
MT campaigns fell short in creating appropriate sectors for earlier
Milieux. Especially the TL and Starport values created annoyed me. So
now I propose for your approval, the........

Milieu World Generation Modification Table, V. 0.1

Milieu		Starport 	Naval Base 	Scout Base	  Tech
		Modifyer	 Modifyer    	 Modifyer	DM/Cutoff

Interstellar Wars					        -2 /  C
Rule of Man							-2 /  D
Long Night	   +2 		    -2		    -2		-3 /  D
Milieu 0	   +1 		    -1		    -1		-1 /  D
				
				
				
				
Starport DM modifies rolled result, so during the Long Night a 2 becomes
a 4.
	(Extensive Starports become a rarity in the Long Night, as interstellar
trade ceases)

The Tech DM modifies the result of the TL Calculation: During the
Interstellar Wars, TL B becomes a TL 9

Cutoff means the highest possible general TL of the Era. During the
Interstellar Wars, the Terrans just reached TL C, while the Vilani still
were at TL B. Higher TL Worlds are reduced to that value during
creation.

Any suggestions, comments
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:17:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

Peter Newman writes:

>> Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.
>
>Well nobody from the Imperium seems to travel here are you sure we are
>not Red Zoned ?

   Given the nature of the culture here and its overall instability (not to
mention insanity), red zone designation would be appropriate.

>> Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
>> saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?
>
>Well skipping the physical stats I would say that the TML's UWP is
>
>	A ???270-Z

<snip>

>Tech Level - People here have knowledge & understanding of Ancient
>Technology so our Tech Level is clearly at least Z :)

   Nope TL 21--none of the rule books allow us to design anything of a
higher technology.

   My take on stats therefore:

   A470270-K   B   Lo Po De    R614  Tr  M2III

   Starport (A) - starships constructed on a regular basis using non-relic
components.

   Size (4) - In case no one else has figured it out, the Traveller is not
as big as most other major RPGs these days.

   Atmosphere (7) - The atmosphere is standard for fan mailing lists.  Taint
is the result of non-topic conversations, and occasional flame wars.

   Hydrosphere (0) - Ever tried to get a drink of water around here?

   Population (2) - Hundreds of subscribers.

   Government (7) - Various factions struggling for the dominace of their
version of the game.

   Law Level (0) - This is a unmoderated list.

   Tech Level (K) - Described above.

   Trade Class (Lo Po De) - Described elsewhere, save for the fact that many
of us are broke from buying sourcebooks.

   Traveller's Aid Society Designation (R) - Described above.

   Pop Mod (5) - I believe someone said the list had between 500 and 600
members.

   Planetoid Belts (1) - The result of shattered hopes and dashed dreams.

   Gas Giants (4) - The result of bloated egos and grandiose schemes.  No, I
will not list their names!

   Allegiance Code (Tr) - We owe our allegiance to Traveller.

   Stellar Data (M2III) - The future is not as bright as it once was....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:02:58 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

Douglas Berry wrote:

>Things like this make me wonder why I'm trying to design a combat 
>system.
>--

And I for one can't wait to see how you are going to capture all these 
wonderful vagarities....  Let's see...  

We shoot, and miss...but, we still hit...even better than if we had 
rolled a hit, then, during the damage roll we actually do zero points of 
damage...but the target dies of shock...

I like it!  Douglas, give me a copy when you have it done!  :-D

Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:20:02 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

In a message dated 2/18/98 10:38:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< LAPD officer was struggling with a suspect who was armed with a .22 pistol.
  The gun went off, hitting the officer in the foot.  Withing ten minutes he
 was dead from shock.
  >>

While working for a mortuary in Phoenix in 1992, I responded to a call where a
gentleman had shot himself in the big toe with a .22 and died on the phone w/
the 911 operator before Fire/Rescue arrived...died of shock.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:27:26 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
>Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
>>  The gun went off, hitting the officer in the foot.  Withing ten 
>>minutes he was dead from shock.
> 
>
>While working for a mortuary in Phoenix in 1992, I responded to a >call 
where a gentleman had shot himself in the big toe with a .22 and >died 
on the phone w/ the 911 operator before Fire/Rescue >arrived...died of 
shock.
>

OK all you former military (and not so former)...

Restore the breathing,
Stop the bleeding,
Treat for shock....

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:29:33 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Target Practice

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>;
>Ever since I saw that body-outline/transparent overlay
>combat system, I have been trying to shoehorn it into
>Traveller combat.  Here's what I have so far:
[snip]

Fabulous!  Are your images in .jpg or some other digital format?

I would want some other somatotypes to play with too; a Kate moss figure, a
Danny Devito figure, an 'average' human male sans armor, etc.

Rather than giving a negative DM, I would say increase difficulty one level
and playtest it that way.

How are you going to handle auto-fire (why do my campaigns seem to always
involve a lot of autofire?) and shotguns? (Those too).  How about armor?
Withthis system a torso/abdomen flak jacket seems to potentially be
properly applicable; if the hit is where there is armor, apply the armor;
otherwise don't.

Get those images/targets digitized!  Or send em to me and I'll scan em in!

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree! Can't I have leftover Groat instead?"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:36:55 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: TML UWP [was ...UNSUBSCRIBE]

Harold, this is great!

[snip]
>   Nope TL 21--none of the rule books allow us to design anything of >   
a higher technology.

I would definately say we have a high degree of artificial intelligence 
on the TML :-D

>   My take on stats therefore:
>
>   A470270-K   B   Lo Po De    R614  Tr  M2III
>
>   Atmosphere (7) - The atmosphere is standard for fan mailing lists. >   
Taint is the result of non-topic conversations, and occasional 
>   flame wars.

I'd say there are periods of irritants...

>   Law Level (0) - This is a unmoderated list.

Definately...

>   Trade Class (Lo Po De) - Described elsewhere, save for the fact 
>   that many of us are broke from buying sourcebooks.

Not to mention that several members are waiting on the Imperium for 
payment of services rendered....  

>   Planetoid Belts (1) - The result of shattered hopes and dashed
>   dreams.

And a few near-C rocks have been spotted!

>   Allegiance Code (Tr) - We owe our allegiance to Traveller.

No doubt.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:16:53 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

At 03:11 PM 2/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>All of this talk of prices of passage ignores one fundamental
>issue.  The price of anything is independant of the cost.  The
>price depends on the market.

Price is correlated with cost, as if the difference between the cost to
provide a service and the price charged for the service reaches the point
where someone else can enter the market, provide the services, and undercut
the present players, then it tends to happen.  The primary bars to this
happening are large startup costs or regulations.  They cannot be
independent, as any sane financier will ask about the potential return on
the investment in question.

Your arguments do hit some of the major issues which show why a fixed price
ticket to all destinations almost certainly bespeaks government regulation,
or price fixing.  In my universe, prices on major liners are fixed by law,
and small operators can charge what the market will bear.  Once a small
operator gets large enough to matter, they are brought into the family.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:51:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes

On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:

> To give you some idea of the scale of these freighters, the largest US 
> warship will be the Nimitz class carrier (USS REAGAN, CVN-76) at 106,000 
> register tons displacement.  A Nimitz is about 336 m (1092') long.  

snip
 
> 
> Definitions:
> 
> 1 Gross register Ton = approx 100 ft^3
> 
> Dead Weight Tonnage = (Loaded - Light) Tonnage = Capacity in Long Tons
> of 
> Cargo
> 
> Displacement = Weight of water volume displced by ship = weight of ship.
> 

For reference, basing the GDT = 100 ft^3 = 2.83 m^3, then the Nimitz,
weighs in at 21.4 kdT.

some of the big ships, then are really, really big!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 19:55 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980218094015.10272D-100000@pill.Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

Bruce,

> > I have a 2 year old daughter. One of her favorite games is to sit down with
> > a pad of paper, a pen, a calculator and my copy of FFS, and draw on the
> > paper, and press buttons on the calculator. Just like Daddy.
>  
> AHA! The True Identity of Ditzie Spofulam is revealed at last!!!

...oooh goddddd...that's the third post in this thread that's nearly had me 
spraying coke all over the keyboard! I don't know how much longer I can take 
this...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 19:55 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

In-Reply-To: <v01510100b10f214fa176@[209.43.128.101]>

Kenji,

> Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.
> Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
> saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?

Starport: E or X (people occasionally crash land here, and desperately 
hang around trying to get rescued)

Hydro: 9 (was originally lower, but people sprayed so much coke out of 
their noses that the sea level rose)

Pop: 2?

Gov: Either 0 or 7 (not sure if the factions are actually coherent enough 
to be counted as groups rather than individuals)

TL: F (theoretical) 0 (actual)

Naval Base, Scout Base, Reasearch Station, Ancients Site

GG: sometimes (if we can get a majority to agree that there's any point)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 19:55 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: MT Errata

In-Reply-To: <01bd3c31$34dcedc0$2c7262ce@worldlink.w-link.net>

Electric,

> That's what I did. I allowed the "military" careers to have access to
> "combat rifleman" through "gun combat" cascade. I agree the "general public"
> shouldn't have access to "combat rifleman".

But it's their Constitutional Right, Goddamnit! :-)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #188
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 18 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 189



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperial Credit exchange Rate
How to....
Re: Nuking Japan
Re: Galaxies in collision?
FFW ship production
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: MT Errata
Re: Copyright/Porperty rights
CD-ROM\TML posts
Re: Eris saith
Re: MT Errata
Re: MT Errata
SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2
Re: How to....
Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?
Re: My FF&S spreadsheet...
Re: Starport Economics
Re: Target Practice
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes
Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Minor race homeworlds
Re: Imperial Credit exchange Rate
Re: MT Errata
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 1998 13:02 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Imperial Credit exchange Rate

IMTU, the Imperial Credit is somewhere around $10, though I wonder
if that's a little high...

Using my Pocket Empires script, the current U.S. dollar works
out to 0.192 Cr (Milieu 0 Credits).

I assume Earth is: starport D, pop 9, gov 7, law 5, TL 7
		   resources 8, infrastructure 7, culture 7
		   PBG = 513.
		   No military expenses.

		   GWP = 218
		   Tax Rate = 0.23
		   Budget   = 50
		   Expenses = 11
		   Surplus  = 39 = Total RU to spend.

So, maybe $5 = 1 Cr.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:07:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: How to....

	Greetings!

	How do I unsubscribe?  Sorry to annoy everyone, but I have tried a
number of variations, and I am still here... :)

	Thanks,

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:07:50 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Nuking Japan

Ed Jenkins wrote:

>A curious thing though...if the bomber had not dropped it's load and simply
>crashed, the damage would have been greater...but no one would have >bombed
cities over it.

And they say there's not a God?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:25:11 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

>Really DUMB question, but...
>  If there was only one bang, and it was from a uniform singular mass, how
>and a galaxy collide with another, since they should be moving more or
>less the same speed, and from a common center shouldn't they?

It's not a dumb question, but it's a complicated one. The short answer
is that gravity, plus various random differences in the mass of galaxies
(or, more precisely, local fluctuations in the density of the post-big-bang
gas that condensed to form the galaxies) adds small random velocities to
individual galaxies on top of the overall motion from the big bang. (For 
example, you can use your legs to add a small random motion towards your
desk, in spite of the overall motion.) [1] 

The long answer adds in the fact that there isn't a common center, and 
the big bang shouldn't be visualized as an explosion in Euclidean space out from
a common point. Take a look at 
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
which is a very good cosmology tutorial (by the person who I learned cosmology
from.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:59 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: FFW ship production

That looks a *lot* like what's in "Imperial Squadrons" - what's it's history?
(Did IS copy this from Eric, or both copy from some Ur-source?)

bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:42:37 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

Hello Folks,
  A stray thought...

  One of a kind ships should have more expensive Maintenance costs - after
all, the parts need to be manufactured special for that particular ship.
Granted, the ship could have been built on off the shelf components, but
then again, how the ship is put together would be different wouldn't it?
Spare parts would have to be shipped in since I doubt that many starports
will bother to stock parts of a ship that may or may not pull into port
there...

  On that topic, would it not be better to just assign a discount on
maintenance for ships that fill a certain class requirement?   Just stray
thoughts...

    Hal

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:49:20 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: MT Errata

Hello Folks,
  Maybe it's my imagination, but has anyone tried to use the MERCHANT
PRINCE or MT merchant character generation system to build a First Mate or
Captain character?   If I recall Correctly, it would seem that the
possibility of getting beyond a certain rank is impossible because one of
the pre-requisite skills is unobtainable...

             Hal

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:43:57 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copyright/Porperty rights

In a message dated 2/18/98 12:17:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kenji@accessone.com writes:

[[ I agree with what you say regarding royalty payments being absurd, and that
you're clearly marketing this product at cost, not for a profit. ]] Actually,
if I look at time involved I'm losing money. I figure $5 for the CDs & P&H in
the US (since right now they are one-offs, I'm not mass-producing them). $10
for time involved in making each CD (it takes at least an hour for each). I
also have $700 in capital costs I wouldn't mind recouping. Etc...., so on. I'd
need to charge a lot more to be actually making money on it (or sell a hundred
times what I'm expecting to sell, which looks like 30-50 maybe).
	Believe me I went and am still going through recriminations on making any
money on the material (even to recover costs). And I went and asked a few
individuals if it would be okay to at least recoup costs, even though I
technically already had there permission too.
	Now personally I wouldn't mind doing this commercially, but than I'd need to
charge a lot more to cover expenses, time in putting the material together,
royalties, etc..... But I prefer it as a fan effort.


	[[What I actually had in mind, though, was that this product reproduces and
disseminates material without permission of the authors involved.  Which,
based on my hazy knowledge of intellectual property law, or at least commonly
accepted citation practice, is questionable. ]] The problem here is I don't
have a way to contact all 500+ current and former TML/Xboat members for
permission (if you can come up with a reasonable way to do it though.....). In
some cases I already have their permission. The best I can do is state that
copyright remains in the hands of the poster of the material (and Far Future
Enterprises). I do have permission for over half the material on the disk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:49:50 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: CD-ROM\TML posts

	I know no one's objected so far. But does anybody have objections to their
TML mailings being on the CD-ROM?
	I'm more than willing to post whatever copyright notices anybody wants on the
material. And in fact have requested such when possible.


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:33:12 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eris saith

>    Then there was the case, supposedly true, of the soldier that had one of
> the testicles shot off during a battle during the American Civil War.  The
> round continued on and struck a young woman, who was part of a group of
> civilians who were observing the fight, in the lower abdomen.
> 
>    That's right--she got pregnant, and nine months later gave birth.  It is
> said the woman and the soldier were later married.
> 
>    Gives a whole new meaning to artifical insemination, eh?
> 

A completely apocryphal legend, but a good one none-the-less.  Apparently some
fact checking was done on the story a while back, and it turned out to be
nothing more then a legend...

It is still taught as truth in some colleges however.

An excellent retelling is in the trade paperback: "The Big Book of Urban
Legends", which retells some 200 or so legends, some urban and some not so
urban, in one page comic strip form.  The pictures that go with this
particular story are hysterical.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:04:28 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: MT Errata

>Hello Folks,
>  Maybe it's my imagination, but has anyone tried to use the MERCHANT
>PRINCE or MT merchant character generation system to build a First Mate or
>Captain character?   If I recall Correctly, it would seem that the
>possibility of getting beyond a certain rank is impossible because one of
>the pre-requisite skills is unobtainable...
>
>             Hal
>

I believe it's your imagination. I looked through LBB#7 and MT Player's
Manual. Everything looked fine as far as pre-requisite skills.

- -Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:58:30 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: MT Errata

>> That's what I did. I allowed the "military" careers to have access to
>> "combat rifleman" through "gun combat" cascade. I agree the "general
public"
>> shouldn't have access to "combat rifleman".
>
>But it's their Constitutional Right, Goddamnit! :-)
>
Imperial Constitution or US constitution?  :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:12:29 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
> 
> > To give you some idea of the scale of these freighters, the largest US
> > warship will be the Nimitz class carrier (USS REAGAN, CVN-76) at 106,000
> > register tons displacement.  A Nimitz is about 336 m (1092') long.
> 
> snip
> 
> >
> > Definitions:
> >
> > 1 Gross register Ton = approx 100 ft^3
> >
> > Dead Weight Tonnage = (Loaded - Light) Tonnage = Capacity in Long Tons
> > of
> > Cargo
> >
> > Displacement = Weight of water volume displced by ship = weight of ship.
> >
> 
> For reference, basing the GDT = 100 ft^3 = 2.83 m^3, then the Nimitz,
> weighs in at 21.4 kdT.
> 
> some of the big ships, then are really, really big!


This seems to be the case.  The problem is that I have seen one
reference
(a dictionary) and heard a direct quote from another about the 100 ft^3 
per GRT conversion.  The dictionary seemed to indicate that it was, in
fact
a definition.  The other indicated that it was an approximation.  Go
figure.

It so happens that I KNOW the exact interior volume of one class of US
ship and one class of French ship from an issue of Naval Engineer's
Journal.


The LSD 41 Class (US) displaces 11367 metric tonnes light loaded and 
has an interior volume of 72,180 m^3.  This equates to a Traveller
displacement of 5347 Dt.  The density is 6.35 m^3/tonne.

Full loaded it displaces 16,151 metric tonnes for a density of 4.47
m^3/tonne.


The French Le Foudre displaces 8230 metric tonnes light loaded with an
interior volume of 56,020 m^3.  This equates to Traveller displacement
of 4150 Dt. The density is 6.81 m^3/tonne.

Full loaded it displaces 12,013 metric tonnes for a density of 4.66
m^3/tonne.

Obviously, the volume to mass ratio (and therefore the gross register
tonnage to mass ratio) varies with hullform and interior construction.

For example, I did a VERY CRUDE experiment to measure interior hull
volume
of the IOWA class BB's with a result of approximately 4770 Dt.  Not as
much
as I expected, but then again, the BB's displaced so much (46,000 -
62,000
tons) because they had so much solid steel on them.  Guns, armor, etc.

Carriers and Amphibs are essentially specialized cargo ships and are
therefore comprised of much larger open spaces.  Thererefore their
density is smaller.

BTW, I did my BB displacement experiment using a Revell model which
was flat bottomed.  I suspect that the model was laregly inaccurate.
Anybody possessing further info on this matter, please let me know!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:22:53 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: How to....

Kenneth Winland wrote:
> 
>         Greetings!
> 
>         How do I unsubscribe?  Sorry to annoy everyone, but I have tried a
> number of variations, and I am still here... :)
> 
>         Thanks,
> 
>         Ken

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <Majordomo@lists.MPGN.COM> with the following
command in the body of your email message:

    unsubscribe traveller kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:28:50 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

> Well, can we gather the best theories of starport capacity,
> layout, sizes, facilities et al and build them into a FAQ?

I don't think the starport capacity is over-discussed.  Admittedly, 
I've only been on the TML for 12 months, but I only recall two starport 
threads.

One was about number of berths.

The other is the current one about trading levels.

Maybe when we get the TML CD we can use the yet-to-be-designed indexing 
tool to search for all those old discussion threads.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:28:46 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: My FF&S spreadsheet...

> Thanks to "Simon" for sending me the new code.

fame at last :-)


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:28:48 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starport Economics

> So how do you figure out how much
> tonnage in cargo goes through a Starport in a given week?

One of my favourite topics again!

For a high-trade universe I recommend the highest of:
(a) TL^2 metric tonnes per person per year
(b) Gov =1..9: 2^TL * POP digit tonnes per year

For a starport-only driven trade system I recommend:
A = 14 million m3 per week (1 M ton)
B = 1.4 million m3 per week (100 k ton)
C = 0.14 million m3 per week (10 k ton)
D = 14 thousand m3 per week (1 k ton)
E = 1.4 thousand m3 per week (100 ton)

For a more complex system:
hope that Andy lily includes trade levels in his oft-rumoured "101 
starports" book from CORE.

Justification for high trade universe
=====================================
A hi pop world that is importing multi-mega tonnes of raw materials 
must be getting them from a (very busy) world nearby, so there can be 
orders of magnitude extra for lo pop mining worlds - this is reflected 
in the TL of that world (high tech mining gear or rich populace who can 
buy what they want).

Interstellar trade will be driven by many things, but we can draw 
comparisons with current world trade and historical trade (which was 
often higher), but the two main flows of trade will probably be:

(1) trade between two worlds of similar TL and pop 7+ each

(2) Imports of raw materials (possibly including food) to Pop 7+ , TL 
4+ worlds.  Low tech (TL 0 to 2 and probably 3) do not have the 
industrial infrastructure to generate imports, but may get them as 
payemnts for the raw materials removed from their world by megacorp 
ships.

If pop 7+ worlds are near each other, then there is no real problem 
with them keeping their mutual starports busy, but this does not allow 
us to cope with hi pop worlds close to low pop mining worlds (including 
asteroid belts).

Other notes
===========
It would be possible to come up with a mix of pop and starport rules 
for determining trade volume.  I play, does it really matter?  Most of 
the trade will be carried by the big boys in their 5,000 - 300,000 T 
ships.  The free traders fill in "the gaps", taking odd assortments of 
freight and speculative cargo that are available for any number of odd 
reasons. There would be a boring "sameness" for the main trade goods, 
but a huge diversity for the odds and ends left to the free traders.

Small worlds, or ones with poor starports, rely on the free traders for 
all freight and cargo to and from the world ... somewhere with only 100 
T total exports per week will not expect (or even support) 10 free 
traders each week!  As I mentioned in my posting on starport berths, 
IMTU these low-traffic systems are good adventure fodder:

"Nope, 'fraid we ain't got none cargo this week.  You might want to 
visit Joe Windlake's place, as I hear he is harvesting real soon.

"No, you don't need a special bit of paper to fly your space wagon 
there ... just be careful where you land.  I reckon you'd be better 
taking a ride, t'aint mor'n five days by horse and I'm sure fancy chaps 
like you will have one of them floating contraptions to do it in no 
time.  Joe'll be happy to set aside a place to set down once he knows 
you're coming.

"Radio?  No, i don't reckon he has one" 


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:52:09 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Target Practice

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

[snip]

> 4) Roll to hit as usual.  If the roll is a miss, then
>    the amount by which the shot missed is the ring
>    position out from the center, while the roll itself
>    is the section of the ring which the shot went through.
>    A miss may still hit.
>
>    It seems to make it easier to hit people.  Perhaps there
>    needs to be a -DM to the roll.

Well, require players to make an aimed action, i.e., no movement.  They
take the risk of becoming stationary, thus easier for opponents to hit.
If its snapshot, non-aimed, put the bullseye in the middle of the
targets torso, or the center of the total space they conver in 2d.

> 5) Damage.  I haven't thought a lot about it, but how about
>
>         Arms, Legs        : STR
>         Hands, Feet, Head : DEX
>         Middle            : END
>         Weapon            : weapon hit, possibly damaged.

I think Dex should apply to all of arm (at least the lower arm - elbow
down) and hand (with extra damage if a right handed person's hand is
hit), since Dex is primarily used for firing weapons, etc.  Legs/Upper
Arm - Shoulder/Upper Torso/Back should effect STR.  Center Torso/Abdomen
as well as damage when penetrates armor to END (as blows in these areas
- - and the dispersed nature of damage through armor, weaken you generally
as opposed to busting your hand up, etc.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:54:01 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> For reference, basing the GDT = 100 ft^3 = 2.83 m^3, then the Nimitz,
> weighs in at 21.4 kdT.

Just FYI, The Titanic was 46,000 tons.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:53:25 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)


>On 02/17/98 at 04:54 PM,  "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> said:
>
<Snipped>
>>Once the tanks are full and busy refining the Hydrogen (and Deuterium,
>>Helium, Nitrogen, etc.),
>
>Here's where there might be a problem. The full tanks contain a mixture of
>elements, a percentage of which won't be useful as jump fuel (be it actual
>fuel or reaction mass), so the ship will have to expell the gases it can't
>use and skim more for refining, refine it, expell, skim, refine...until the
>desired quantity of hydrogen, pure enough to qualify as refined fuel, is
>obtained.  Either that or take on a good deal more gas to refine than it
>will eventually need.
>
>Eris
>
This is the part that I'm very unsure of, and one of the reasons that I
asked the original question. Concidering the refining time vs the scooping
time as proposed in this technique is just too great, 6, 8 12 hours to
refine and purify the fuel means, filling the tanks, waiting that long then
refilling the tanks, etc. Also, unless you have 2 or more tanks, one for the
unrefined fuel "in front" of the refining equipment, and one after, you will
probably have to run the fuel you refined previously through again.

I pictured a less violent form of refueling, dependant on CG. Basically the
ship enters atmoshere and trolls for fuel at a rate equal to it's refining
capacity. On reflection this is NOT supported by FFS2 (not sure about FFS1),
since only hypersonic streamlined hulls can skim for fuel. However, with CG
and thrusters this process makes more sense to me. Think of the veiw (which
I was when I pictured a tourist cruise) something like the Hindenburg gently
gliding through the upper atmoshere of the Gas Giant, (or like a whale
feeding if you have no poetry in your soul). Anyway I digress, and as i said
the rules do not support this anyway, and it was such a good gimick to set
up a "Titanic" scenario! Oh, well, back to the drawing board!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:02:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

Now, now now!  Let's get back to talking about all that
fun stuff and start worring about subscription issues!

[FNORD...
NOTE TO HQ:	
It seems that some are starting to remember that they
didn't want to be on the list.  Time to turn up the
mind control lasers...
FNORD]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:17:20 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Minor race homeworlds

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Steve Daniels wrote:
>
> >So, can we then assume that Syleans have a traditional inclination against
> >bathing and hygiene (which keeps their medical TL from advancing too quickly)?
> >What about fondness for cheese, snails and wine?  And not letting allies fly
> >over their territory?
>
> Careful, now... even though this is a pretty Teutonic bunch here, I know
> there are some among us who belong to the ethnic group you're slurring
> there.
>
> Hell, there might even be some French, too.

Like I could actual break through their ennui and apathy.  ;-)In fact I have a copy
of one branch of my family tree that starts in 1700:  Bartholomew Dupuy and his
wife Susanna Lavillan fled France because of Louis XIV.  So I'm part, very small
part, French.

BTW, any one ever develop any interstellar geneological agencies?

Bleu

>
>
> >Doesn't  this mean that "Sylea" should be pronounced "Silly?"  And thus, this
> >world is home for Traveller: The Silly Era?
>
> Q.E.D.
>
> Kenji Schwarz
> kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:19:40 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Credit exchange Rate

> IMTU, the Imperial Credit is somewhere around $10, though I wonder
> if that's a little high...
> Using my Pocket Empires script, the current U.S. dollar works
> out to 0.192 Cr (Milieu 0 Credits).
> I assume Earth is: starport D, pop 9, gov 7, law 5, TL 7
> 		   resources 8, infrastructure 7, culture 7
> 		   PBG = 513.
> 		   No military expenses.

I would have to say starport C.  We do have refined fuel available.

> 		   GWP = 218
> 		   Tax Rate = 0.23

My taxes are 33% so it should be 0.33

> 		   Budget   = 50
> 		   Expenses = 11
> 		   Surplus  = 39 = Total RU to spend.
> 
> So, maybe $5 = 1 Cr.

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:18:10 -0500 (EST)
From: HAL <hal@buffnet.net>
Subject: Re: MT Errata

Hello Shawn,
  Look at the skills you need in order to go from 4th mate to 3rd mate,
and from third mate to second mate, etc...  Then look at the tables each
is permitted to roll upon in order to get their skills.  You will find
that at some point in the progression, it is impossible to get the
prerequisite skill in order to advance to the next level of promotion.
Which specifically, I can't off hand recall, but I can dig out my copy of
MERCHANT PRINCE and give you the specifics if you can't find it.
     Hal

 On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing wrote:

> 
> 
> >Hello Folks,
> >  Maybe it's my imagination, but has anyone tried to use the MERCHANT
> >PRINCE or MT merchant character generation system to build a First Mate or
> >Captain character?   If I recall Correctly, it would seem that the
> >possibility of getting beyond a certain rank is impossible because one of
> >the pre-requisite skills is unobtainable...
> >
> >             Hal
> >
> 
> I believe it's your imagination. I looked through LBB#7 and MT Player's
> Manual. Everything looked fine as far as pre-requisite skills.
> 
> -Shawn
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:23:04 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

> Carriers and Amphibs are essentially specialized cargo ships and are
> therefore comprised of much larger open spaces.  Thererefore their
> density is smaller.
> 
> BTW, I did my BB displacement experiment using a Revell model which
> was flat bottomed.  I suspect that the model was laregly inaccurate.
> Anybody possessing further info on this matter, please let me know!
> 


Also, the IOWA's were	887'3" long (270.4 m)
			108'3" beam (33m)
			38' draught (11.6 m)
with a max height of	209'8" keel to mast top (63.9 m)

In terms of fuel, they carried 2.5 million gallons (9.5 million liters)
of fuel poil, 30,000 gallons (114,000 l) of aviation fuel, and 
239,000 gallons (905,000 l) of water.  I also have armor data and
a detailed comparison of armor schemes of various ships of that era
if anyone is interested.  The armor doc is over 30 pages long IIRC.

- -Dan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #189
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 18 1998    Volume 1998 : Number 190



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Dhe comment from a non-Traveller
"Dress Me Up" Final Draft - Pretty Long, includes TLs and Prices
Traveller Ship Sizes
OFF TOPIC - Darwin Awards
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes
Re Merchant prince character Gen
Material for CD-ROM
Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))
Re: Galaxies in collision?
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2
Re: MT Errata
Re: Re Merchant prince character Gen
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
The Death of  "Fusion Plus"
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Former Traveller publishers
Re: MT Errata
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:35:30 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Dhe comment from a non-Traveller

In the process of figuring the "correct" odds on Dhe, I spoke to
my father, who in turn spoke to a guy ("BD") he knows that does
hyperadvanced math by intuition (he also writes damn near perfect
computer code the same way).  BD said that he'd love to see it at
a casino; it's nice and simple, yet has possibilities.  He
suggests one change in the rules - instead of having the croupier
throw the dice, have the players rotate throwing the dice, until
the player either wins or loses, at which point the throw passes
to the next player.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:09:22 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: "Dress Me Up" Final Draft - Pretty Long, includes TLs and Prices

Dress Me Up

Wherever there are children, there will be toys.  The Third Imperium is no
different.  On all of the thousands of worlds that humaniti has settled on,
dress up dolls have always been popular items.  The "Dress Me Up" system from
Delgado is a high-tech holographic version popular in mainstream Imperial
culture.  The "Dress Me Up" system is not the only version of the toy in
Imperial space, but it is by far the most popular.

Delgado's "Dress Me Up" system is a return to the basics of toymaking.  It is
basically the same as such toys as Barbie and Kisyakae dolls on Terra, the
Admii doll on Vland, as well as countless others that have existed throughout
the hundreds of thousands of years of human history.  You have a doll, and you
can dress up that doll in any combination of a large variety of different
outfits.  In this case, however, the doll and the outfits are holographic and
are stored on data cartridges that are read by a specialized computerized
unit.  The system has a long history, and variations on the same unit have
been in use since 824.  Modern units are compatible with older data
cartridges, which has created a thriving collector's market.

The actual specifications are as follows:  The system is a disk with sloping
sides.  The diameter is 34.5 cm at the base, and 32 cm at the top.  It stands
12.5 cm high.  The unit masses .4 kg.  The edges are rounded and there are no
sharp protrusions.  A viewscreen is set on the side of the unit, and it is
touch sensitive, eliminating the need for buttons.  The screen covers just a
little under half of the side.  The hardware that projects the holographic
images is set in the top underneath clear, scratch-resistant plastic.  There
are sockets for data cartridges built into the back of the unit, two large
ones for doll data cartridges, and six smaller ones for clothing data
cartridges.  Next to these sockets are two jacks, one for a power cord, and
one to hook the unit to a computer system so clothing combinations can be
saved and viewed on the computer at a later date.  Both jacks are Imperial
standard and the connecting cords are readily available on any world with an
Imperial presence.  The unit is extremely durable, and on the off chance that
any part should break, the components inside are extremely user friendly.  A
fixed rechargeable battery allows the unit to be operated for up to thirty
hours from a full charge.  There is no power switch on the unit, the unit is
switched on when a doll cartridge is inserted, and switched off when the
cartridge is removed.  If the unit is left alone for ten minutes, it will shut
off automatically, and can be turned on again by re-inserting a doll data
cartridge.  Two dolls can be displayed at any given time, and the fully re-
configurable viewscreen allows the dolls position and the clothes to be
changed.

The data cartridges are also very durable.  They are rectangular with rounded
edges, and are set within a sheath that retracts when inserted.  The doll data
cartridges are 4.5 cm wide, 6 cm long, and 1.8 cm high.  The clothing data
cartridges are smaller, 2.5 cm wide, 4 cm long, and 1 high.  The labels on the
cartridges will vary in size depending on local tastes, but older cartridges
tend to have a smaller space covered with label.  Modern cartridges are often
completely covered with a brightly colored label, pinks, blues and yellows are
popular colors.

The doll information on the cartridges varies from location to location within
the Imperium.  Third party companies purchase licenses to produce dolls, so
the variety is almost endless.  Doll clothing cartridges are extremely common,
and can be used with most dolls, since scaling algorithms in the unit 'tailor'
the outfit to fit the current doll.  However, some clothing data is
'protected' and will only work with certain dolls.  The Imperial family have
always been hot sellers, "Dress Me Up: Ciencia Iphegenia" recently broke the
previous sales records set by the "Dress Me Up: Liisha Memorial" doll set
licensed by the late Vilani fashion model turned actress and singer's estate.

Usually, the dolls are not anatomically correct.  In some locations, however,
making the dolls anatomically incorrect is viewed unfavorably, or even as an
insult.  As a result, the anatomically correct data is stored on the
cartridges and is decoded by a special chip that comes in the units sold in
those areas.  Pirated decoding chips have been made, and are hot sellers in
all areas of the Imperium.  Apparently, there are enough people interested in
undressing the dolls and posing them in lewd positions to make to make the
trade in these chips profitable.

As has been said previously, the durability of the cartridges, and the long
history that the system has had, have created a thriving collectors market in
the Imperium.  Older cartridges can sell at conventions and auctions for
hundreds of thousands of credits.  Currently, the system is at a peak in
popularity, so such conventions are common in all the corners of the Imperium.

Delgado keeps a tight leash on this product, as it is a constant source of
income, and the megacorporation will vigorously pursue all legal means to keep
unlicensed products off of the shelves.  However, for reasons known only to
Delgado, they do not seem to pursue the market in the pirated chips, although
they denounce them publicly in their own "Dress Me Up" magazine, and
statements to the press.  More cynical types note that Delgado obviously knows
that the pirated chips open up a new market for the system, and units sold are
still units sold, allowing them to keep a leg up on the competition.

The unit has found its way into a number of other niches as well.  They are
used in classes at universities and colleges to display outfits and uniforms
of bygone eras.  Specialized units are also used at art schools for fashion
design.  These units have an additional connector to allow input from an
Imperial standard computer so outfits can be made and tailored to fit specific
"dolls".  Delgado keeps a close eye on these units, making sure that ulicensed
outfit cartridges aren't produced.  "Dress Me Up" units are highly sought
after on worlds with low levels of technology, as they're educational use is
almost invaluable.  Delgado is currently market testing a new spin on the toy
called "Dress Me Up: Snapshot".  Consumers can go into a specially licensed
boutique or toy store and have themselves "encoded" into the "Dress Me Up"
standard.  Then this encoded image can be written onto a data cartridge and
used as any other doll would be.  In some places where "Dress Me Up: Snapshot"
has been tested, the cartridge is 'time-limited' and must be renewed every
month.  Delgado hasn't completed its full analysis yet, but it is expected
that some form of "Dress Me Up: Snapshot" will be available in the Imperium
within two to ten years.

Current Delgado "Dress Me Up" systems are TL13, although the earliest units
would be considered TL11.  These units can be purchased at any world with an
Imperial presence, regardless of the planetary tech level.  The units are
extremely technician friendly, and can be repaired or modified at any world
with a tech level of 8+ by any technician with access to the proper repair
parts.  Of course, having the unit repaired by a non-licensed technician is
not advised, as the Delgado warranty will be null and void.  The cartridges
are available in all corners of the Imperium, and, much like the systems, can
be bought at any world with an Imperial presence regardless of the level of
technology that can be produced on the planet.  The pirated decoding chips can
be purchased on the black market throughout the imperium, and can be
manufactured at any world with a tech level of 10+.


"Dress Me Up" Core System:   Retail: Cr85   Wholesale: Cr45   Mass: .4 kg
Average Doll Data Cartridge:   Retail: Cr20   Wholesale: Cr10   Mass: Neg.
Average Clothing Data Cartridge:   Retail: Cr5   Wholesale: Cr3   Mass: Neg.
Decoding Chip:   Retail: Cr30   Wholesale: varies ~Cr8   Mass: Neg.

Keep on the lookout for a list of dolls, including those made around the
Imperial year 1105, and classic or notable dolls (with some commentary).
Also, keep on the lookout for the final draft of the InterAct music system,
and a rough draft of an essay on an Imperial subculture.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:44:53 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Traveller Ship Sizes

OK,  I've just finished analyzing the largest Canonical Traveller
starship that I know of, the BI-15 from FSotSI.

I divided the drawing into 6 geometrical solids and analyzed the
component volumes to get the total.  I also assumed that the ship
as depicted was at 45 degrees to the line of view on page 19
of FSotSI.

Here's what I arrived at:

	L = 20n = 681.4 m ~ 682 m length
	B = 8.5n= 289.6 m ~ 290 m beam
	D = 1n  = 34.07 m ~ 34  m draught

It displaces 700,000 Td or 9,450,000 m^3 and mounts a Type "T"
spinal meson gun (which we can determine from the Tigress design
must be less than 235 m in length, since one fits inside a Tigress
along a diameter axis.)

Tigresses, BTW, are PUNY.  (500,000 Td = 6,750,000 m^3)

This implies that the radius of the Tigress is 117.25 m =>
That the Tigress' diameter is a measly, puny, insignificant
235 m).  Hardly the DEATH STAR, eh...

So, THAT's how BIG Traveller starships are!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:44:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC - Darwin Awards

Has anyone still got a copy of the Darwin Awards post from last year?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:54:27 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes

Steve Daniels wrote:

> > For reference, basing the GDT = 100 ft^3 = 2.83 m^3, then the Nimitz,
> > weighs in at 21.4 kdT.
> 
> Just FYI, The Titanic was 46,000 tons.

Ah, yes, but what *kind* of tons?

There are 
 2,000 lb tons
 2,200 lb long tons
 1,000 kg metric tons
 100 cu ft Ship Registery tons
 14 cu m  Traveller Displacement tons

...and any number of other measures all called ton. Then there is the
problem of what the ton is measuring, is it mass, weight (not the same
thing), or displacement (displacement of what? water or hydrogen).

I worked out, one time, that you can get a close approximation between
earth ship Registery tons (most US and British ships seem to be rated
that way) and Traveller DTons on a 5 to 1 ratio.  If that's so, then a
46,000 ton Titanic would approximate a 9,200 DTon Traveller ship. 

However, with all the different *kinds* of tons, who can really tell for
sure.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:33:45 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re Merchant prince character Gen

Looking at my LBB #7, it seems to be in free traders, where 
the rank O4 requires Pilot, which is not available in the tables,
to counteract this, change the second Steward (#5 on Free Trader
Business) to Pilot instead. Think this is the answer from the
MT Errata packs.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Del

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
dojones@whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:50:09 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Material for CD-ROM

	On another note, yes I'm interested in whatever people have that they want to
have included on the CD.
	I have just one major request and that is that you include some sort of
copyright notice in a text file included with the material. If it is a based
on someone else's work, than that should be noted (I don't expect that person
would object, but they definitely wouldn't mind being honored).

	I expect it'll be about two-four weeks before the first disks start going out
(it'll be about another week for me to recieve some material off some parties,
maybe two). Material can still be sent after that date for the next release
(January next year or so).

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:28:42 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned (was Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan))

At 01:18 AM 18/02/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>Other "low tech" fighters combined with the "right" high tech supplies
>will be dangerous. Heck, a company of trained longbowmen would be
>dangerous to 20th century troops. (Note: the Army actually has
>crossbows available for snipers!)
>
And at least one member of the British SAS in WWII used a bow.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:27:08 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

At 11:07 PM 17/02/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>There's apparently been some recent research that measures the relative
>motiuon of galactic clusters or some other "large scale" phenomenom
>that seems to indicate that the "cosmological dark matter" *doesn't*
>exist. In which case it *will* be thrown out the window, and they'll
>have to try to explain how we got the current universe from a much less
>massive big bang.
>
>It also means that the universe would be open, which means that it's
>gonna last for a *long* time. No cycling back to a "Big Crunch".
>
So the universe dies through terminal boredom, unstead of treminal
compression :)

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:59:21 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

At 05:12 PM 18/02/98 -0500, Dan wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
>> 
>> > To give you some idea of the scale of these freighters, the largest US
>> > warship will be the Nimitz class carrier (USS REAGAN, CVN-76) at 106,000
>> > register tons displacement.  A Nimitz is about 336 m (1092') long.
>> 
>> snip
>> 
>> >
>> > Definitions:
>> >
>> > 1 Gross register Ton = approx 100 ft^3
>> >
>> > Dead Weight Tonnage = (Loaded - Light) Tonnage = Capacity in Long Tons
>> > of
>> > Cargo
>> >
>> > Displacement = Weight of water volume displced by ship = weight of ship.
>> >
>> 
>> For reference, basing the GDT = 100 ft^3 = 2.83 m^3, then the Nimitz,
>> weighs in at 21.4 kdT.
>> 
>> some of the big ships, then are really, really big!
>
>
>This seems to be the case.  The problem is that I have seen one
>reference
>(a dictionary) and heard a direct quote from another about the 100 ft^3 
>per GRT conversion.  The dictionary seemed to indicate that it was, in
>fact
>a definition.  The other indicated that it was an approximation.  Go
>figure.
>
>It so happens that I KNOW the exact interior volume of one class of US
>ship and one class of French ship from an issue of Naval Engineer's
>Journal.
>
>
>The LSD 41 Class (US) displaces 11367 metric tonnes light loaded and 
>has an interior volume of 72,180 m^3.  This equates to a Traveller
>displacement of 5347 Dt.  The density is 6.35 m^3/tonne.
>
>Full loaded it displaces 16,151 metric tonnes for a density of 4.47
>m^3/tonne.
>
>
>The French Le Foudre displaces 8230 metric tonnes light loaded with an
>interior volume of 56,020 m^3.  This equates to Traveller displacement
>of 4150 Dt. The density is 6.81 m^3/tonne.
>
>Full loaded it displaces 12,013 metric tonnes for a density of 4.66
>m^3/tonne.
>
>Obviously, the volume to mass ratio (and therefore the gross register
>tonnage to mass ratio) varies with hullform and interior construction.
>
>For example, I did a VERY CRUDE experiment to measure interior hull
>volume
>of the IOWA class BB's with a result of approximately 4770 Dt.  Not as
>much
>as I expected, but then again, the BB's displaced so much (46,000 -
>62,000
>tons) because they had so much solid steel on them.  Guns, armor, etc.
>
>Carriers and Amphibs are essentially specialized cargo ships and are
>therefore comprised of much larger open spaces.  Thererefore their
>density is smaller.
>
>BTW, I did my BB displacement experiment using a Revell model which
>was flat bottomed.  I suspect that the model was laregly inaccurate.
>Anybody possessing further info on this matter, please let me know!
>
>-Dan

There's a book by one Norman Freidman (sp?) on battleship design and
contruction that goes into some detail on hull volumes, etc (though not
superstructure volume). IIRC the Iowa's had very fine hulls, so your
estimate may not be off by that much. BTW there is an analysis in his book
that shows that the US Navy misrepresented the level of protection the
Iowa's had for many years.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:14:52 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: MT Errata

Deck:
Apprentice - Route Assignment
4th Officer - Nav-1 (available under deck skills)
3rd Officer - Admin-1 (available under deck skills)
2nd Officer - Ship's Boat-1 or Pilot-1 (available under deck skills)
1st Officer - Pilot-1 (available under deck skills)
Captain - Legal-1 (available under deck skills)

Free Traders:
4th Officer - Route Assignment
3rd Officer - Steward-1 and Engineering-1 (available under free trader
service and business)
2nd Officer - Nav-1 (available under Free trader business)
1st Officer - Pilot -1 (not available)
Captain - Legal-1 (available under free trade life)

source: Merchant Prince 1st Edition

You are correct. This is what it should read:

Free Trader Business
1 Engineering
2 Navigation
3 Steward
4 Legal
5 Pilot
6 Broker

Roll 5 Steward is replaced with Pilot.

This is what it stated in MT.



>Hello Shawn,
>  Look at the skills you need in order to go from 4th mate to 3rd mate,
>and from third mate to second mate, etc...  Then look at the tables each
>is permitted to roll upon in order to get their skills.  You will find
>that at some point in the progression, it is impossible to get the
>prerequisite skill in order to advance to the next level of promotion.
>Which specifically, I can't off hand recall, but I can dig out my copy of
>MERCHANT PRINCE and give you the specifics if you can't find it.
>     Hal

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:17:29 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Re Merchant prince character Gen

>
>Looking at my LBB #7, it seems to be in free traders, where
>the rank O4 requires Pilot, which is not available in the tables,
>to counteract this, change the second Steward (#5 on Free Trader
>Business) to Pilot instead. Think this is the answer from the
>MT Errata packs.
>

I read #7 more closely. You are correct. The answer wasn't in an errata. It
was actually fixed in MT.

- -Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:41:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:

> OK,  I've just finished analyzing the largest Canonical Traveller
> starship that I know of, the BI-15 from FSotSI.
> 
> I divided the drawing into 6 geometrical solids and analyzed the
> component volumes to get the total.  I also assumed that the ship
> as depicted was at 45 degrees to the line of view on page 19
> of FSotSI.
> 
> Here's what I arrived at:
> 
> 	L = 20n = 681.4 m ~ 682 m length
> 	B = 8.5n= 289.6 m ~ 290 m beam
> 	D = 1n  = 34.07 m ~ 34  m draught

Dat's BIIIIIIIIG.  :)

Does anybody know the name of this class, BTW?  (Or other classes in
FSotSI?)  I know that the ED-15 is the Rapier, and a few others (BR-14) 
were named in Battle Rider, IIRC.  BI-15 might be the Sylea.  I know that
the CT supplement Fighting Ships gave names for some of them, but I don't
have that one.  If anyone has this info, can you please post a list (or a
URL)?  Thanks!

How much canonical information is there on Zhodani capital ship classes?

> It displaces 700,000 Td or 9,450,000 m^3 and mounts a Type "T"
> spinal meson gun (which we can determine from the Tigress design
> must be less than 235 m in length, since one fits inside a Tigress
> along a diameter axis.)
> 
> Tigresses, BTW, are PUNY.  (500,000 Td = 6,750,000 m^3)
> 
> This implies that the radius of the Tigress is 117.25 m =>
> That the Tigress' diameter is a measly, puny, insignificant
> 235 m).  Hardly the DEATH STAR, eh...

Where is the Tigress design from?  What is it?

> So, THAT's how BIG Traveller starships are!

WOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!

:)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:47:56 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: The Death of  "Fusion Plus"

> 
> At the very least let's (please, please please :-) can the "fusion+"
> moniker for it and get a better name.
> 


I concur, but sugqest that "FusionPlus" would probably be the marketing
name for the technology.  We would just note in TTA that it is
generically 
the first application of nascent Nuclear Damper technologies to the
problem 
of fusion, much like antimatter spiking or muon catalzation.

IMTU, although they appear at TL12, ND technologies (Hadronics) don't
reach maturity until TL13.  They then continue to develop normally from
this point on.  Note that this is wehn the Fusion Rx's jump from 2 to 3
MWe/m^3.

One methodology is to simply assume that the nuclear field manipulation
reduces the required containment energy.   This reduces the volume of
the containment apparatus.

Another method is to assume that the development of mesonic technology,
an 
application of the growing electroweak force engineering field 
(which leads to meson guns and meson screens at TL's 11-12) allows
more powerfulk containment field for a given volume, or more powerful 
ignition lasers for inertial schemes.

In any case, after TL 13, the actual fusion reaction used in Rx's
changes 
as it becomes possible to reduce the threshold energy for 
fusion considerably by weakening the proton-proton repulsion in
joining nuclei and to strengthen the strong nuclear force (with similar 
effect) both in range and amplitude.  I've even figured out which
reactions
are likely candidates!


- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:59:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

The Tigress is from the Ct Supplement 9, "Fighting Ships."

It is a 500,000 ton BB. Jump 4, 6g, TL15. I actually figured that it
was something like a 300,000 ton sphere with a 200,000 ton arcade on
the back from the drawing. When you also consider the "pac-man"
mouth on it then the length for the spinal weapon gets pretty short.

This doesn't matter in CT since the meson gun is only 1% of the hull
:-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:20:25 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Former Traveller publishers

	Dose anybody know any contact points for these former publishers of Traveller
products:

Baron Publications    
Empire [Paragon]
GameLords    
Grenadier Models Inc.    
Group One    
IBR    
Judges Guild    
New Infinity Productions    
Paragon    
Paranoia Press [Chuck Kallenbach, anyone know here he disappeared to]
Robert W. Warfield    
	The Evening Star    
Seeker Gaming Systems    
Staplehurst & Hulks    
Star Quest Games    

Also:
Chaosium (magazine articles)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:33:34 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: MT Errata

hal@buffnet.net writes:
>  Maybe it's my imagination, but has anyone tried to use the MERCHANT
>PRINCE or MT merchant character generation system to build a First Mate or
>Captain character?   If I recall Correctly, it would seem that the
>possibility of getting beyond a certain rank is impossible because one of
>the pre-requisite skills is unobtainable...

- -----

No problem. My favourite character was a Merchant Prince. Started with a
small tramp trader, ended up as Imperial Governor. Which was ironic, as he
was opposed to annexation and was striving to establish a small federation
(in District 268).  The stress of balancing Imperial duties, managerial
responsibilities, and political subversion eventually gave him a heart
attack, which he survived but then his doctor (another player) made him
give up day-to-day management of the merchant company.

Those were the days. We would have killed for Pocket Empires. Can you
imagine calculating the economy of a world using the trade tables as a
basis?  Without a computer?  We had more time for games in those days
<sigh>!  You young people nowadays have it easy <waves cane in air>. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:36:09 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> > > For reference, basing the GDT = 100 ft^3 = 2.83 m^3, then the Nimitz,
> > > weighs in at 21.4 kdT.
> >
> > Just FYI, The Titanic was 46,000 tons.
> 
> Ah, yes, but what *kind* of tons?
> 
> There are
>  2,000 lb tons
>  2,200 lb long tons
>  1,000 kg metric tons
>  100 cu ft Ship Registery tons
>  14 cu m  Traveller Displacement tons
> 
> ...and any number of other measures all called ton. Then there is the
> problem of what the ton is measuring, is it mass, weight (not the same
> thing), or displacement (displacement of what? water or hydrogen).
> 
> I worked out, one time, that you can get a close approximation between
> earth ship Registery tons (most US and British ships seem to be rated
> that way) and Traveller DTons on a 5 to 1 ratio.  If that's so, then a
> 46,000 ton Titanic would approximate a 9,200 DTon Traveller ship.
> 
> However, with all the different *kinds* of tons, who can really tell for
> sure.
> 
> Eris

Good question! 

Yep.  The 5:1 ratio DOES work if you're equating gross register tonnage
to Traveller displacement.  It doesn't work if you're equating
displacement tons
(of water) to Trav Disp.  That's because Titanic displaced 46,000 tons
of water,
that is 46,000 cubic  meters while afloat.  But since mouch of her hull
volume
was above the waterline, she carried an even larger internal volume.

Displacement Tonnage (Water):

I believe these are effectively long tons, i.e. 2200 lbs.  The
Treaty which established the tonnage convention back earlier this
century 
(London, Washinton Naval Arms Treaties?) may have had
more specific language.  perhaps the standard even predates those.

I admit, I'm not sure.

In any case 2200 lbs = 1000 kg (approximately) = 1 Metric Ton. So I
believe
the answer is "both."

Displacements are always weights of water displaced by the ship, so
this just tells us how much Titanic weighed.  Unfortunately, the
volume to weight ratio (the reciprocal of the overall density) does
not equate well between ships, and is highly dependent upon hullform
and ship employment.  Ocean liners are basicaly big air filled boxes
with minimal machinery and no heavy equipment.

- -Dan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #190
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 191



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Email Address Fixed
Re: FFW ship production
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2
Slings & Jerry Lewis?
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan)
Relativistic Travel Times
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Re: 3D combat
Re: The Death of  "Fusion Plus"
Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?
Re: Copyright/Porperty rights
"Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review
Re Merchant Prince Character Gen
Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?
Re: Former Traveller publishers
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:41:20 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Email Address Fixed

Apologies to all about the incorrect email addresses on the DMCI web site.
Thanks to Clay and Dave for pointing it out. I've now fixed it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:26:06 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: FFW ship production

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>
>That looks a *lot* like what's in "Imperial Squadrons" - what's it's
>history?
>
>(Did IS copy this from Eric, or both copy from some Ur-source?)

Imperial Squadrons copies a lot of its material from Fifth Frontier War
and supplemental JTAS articles. One of the first things I've noticed. 

PS. Yes, I bought it at a shop. Decided that there was no point in waiting
for IG to send me anything, so even if a book arrives I'll be returning
it. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:06:01 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

> > So, THAT's how BIG Traveller starships are!
> 
> WOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!
> 
> :)


I too suspect that this is the Sylea class.  The old art gave Sylea as
100,000 tons.  But that falls into the cruiser class.  The design is
in some ways similar.

Anyway, compare this size with the size of a Star Wars vessel:

	Star Destroyer			1600 m
	Super Star Destroyer		7500 m (?)
	Super Duper Star Destroyer	17,500 m

or one of the vessels from the Honor Harrington series:

	Nike (?)			1600 m (?)

This supports my argument that Traveller ships need to be BIGGGERR.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:13:59 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> At 05:12 PM 18/02/98 -0500, Dan wrote:
> >Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
> >>
> >> > To give you some idea of the scale of these freighters, the largest US
> >> > warship will be the Nimitz class carrier (USS REAGAN, CVN-76) at 106,000
> >> > register tons displacement.  A Nimitz is about 336 m (1092') long.
> >>
> >> snip
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Definitions:
> >> >
> >> > 1 Gross register Ton = approx 100 ft^3
> >> >
> >> > Dead Weight Tonnage = (Loaded - Light) Tonnage = Capacity in Long Tons
> >> > of
> >> > Cargo
> >> >
> >> > Displacement = Weight of water volume displced by ship = weight of ship.
> >> >
> >>
> >> For reference, basing the GDT = 100 ft^3 = 2.83 m^3, then the Nimitz,
> >> weighs in at 21.4 kdT.
> >>
> >> some of the big ships, then are really, really big!
> >
> >
> >This seems to be the case.  The problem is that I have seen one
> >reference
> >(a dictionary) and heard a direct quote from another about the 100 ft^3
> >per GRT conversion.  The dictionary seemed to indicate that it was, in
> >fact
> >a definition.  The other indicated that it was an approximation.  Go
> >figure.
> >
> >It so happens that I KNOW the exact interior volume of one class of US
> >ship and one class of French ship from an issue of Naval Engineer's
> >Journal.
> >
> >
> >The LSD 41 Class (US) displaces 11367 metric tonnes light loaded and
> >has an interior volume of 72,180 m^3.  This equates to a Traveller
> >displacement of 5347 Dt.  The density is 6.35 m^3/tonne.
> >
> >Full loaded it displaces 16,151 metric tonnes for a density of 4.47
> >m^3/tonne.
> >
> >
> >The French Le Foudre displaces 8230 metric tonnes light loaded with an
> >interior volume of 56,020 m^3.  This equates to Traveller displacement
> >of 4150 Dt. The density is 6.81 m^3/tonne.
> >
> >Full loaded it displaces 12,013 metric tonnes for a density of 4.66
> >m^3/tonne.
> >
> >Obviously, the volume to mass ratio (and therefore the gross register
> >tonnage to mass ratio) varies with hullform and interior construction.
> >
> >For example, I did a VERY CRUDE experiment to measure interior hull
> >volume
> >of the IOWA class BB's with a result of approximately 4770 Dt.  Not as
> >much
> >as I expected, but then again, the BB's displaced so much (46,000 -
> >62,000
> >tons) because they had so much solid steel on them.  Guns, armor, etc.
> >
> >Carriers and Amphibs are essentially specialized cargo ships and are
> >therefore comprised of much larger open spaces.  Thererefore their
> >density is smaller.
> >
> >BTW, I did my BB displacement experiment using a Revell model which
> >was flat bottomed.  I suspect that the model was laregly inaccurate.
> >Anybody possessing further info on this matter, please let me know!
> >
> >-Dan
> 
> There's a book by one Norman Freidman (sp?) on battleship design and
> contruction that goes into some detail on hull volumes, etc (though not
> superstructure volume). IIRC the Iowa's had very fine hulls, so your
> estimate may not be off by that much. BTW there is an analysis in his book
> that shows that the US Navy misrepresented the level of protection the
> Iowa's had for many years.
> 
> -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>    Palmerston North
>    New Zealand
> 
>    "If in doubt - wipe it out."

I would give my left hemispher to get a copy of that book!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:28:24 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Slings & Jerry Lewis?

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz

>IIRC the favoured projectile for a sling was a lead slug, about a inch in
>diameter, which would weigh about a hundred grams. These sling bullets
>killed a lot of people, even when they wore helmets.

I own a Roman sling pellet (recovered from a 1st century BC siege site, and
now, I hope, in storage from my move), and it is about an ounce in wt,
although more of an oblate shperoid, rather like an American football about 2
inches long and 3/4 in in the middle. The Romans had special forceps for
removing them from wounds, so they had to have been able to penetrate skin.
Even with armor, something like that could really mess you up.

Legate said:

>And your point being?  As everyone in the English Speaking World knows the
>French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video.  Add
>to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis 

I am shocked...shocked, do you hear...to diascver that this base canard is
still circulating in an educated venue such as the TML. 

No, this is a case of mistaken identity. The French do not believe that Jerry
Lewis is a comedic genius. They believe that Sherry (S-h-e-r-r-y) Lewis is a
comedic Genius. Pronounce eet weeth a comeek Fraaanch aczent, and you will
zee. . .zat Lamb zchop, she ees zo cute, and ze Charley Horse, he ze everyman,
no?

Loren (did I achieve this month's quota of nasal beverage expulsion?) Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:34:27 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> writes:
>
>People lie in surveys.  The more personal the question the more they
>
>lie.  Peoples religious beliefs are personal.  It is quite possible that
>
>people lie about their religious beliefs a lot.
>
>
>
>These numbers cannot necessarily be considered valid.  They probably
>
>have some vailidity.

Yup. I tend to get wierd looks when I answer pollsters questions honestly.
But then, they are set up for simple one-word answers to complex issues,
so what do you expect?

Q. Do you believe in God?

A. On good days. And if I'm lucky on bad days too, but the really bad days
make it hard to believe in anything but random chance. I mean, could you
look one of your kids in the eye and tell her that God wanted her brother
to be murdered? How could an all-powerful God let that happen?

Q. Um. The next question is: Do you believe in heaven and hell?

A. In what sense? I've paddled with dolphins, watched eagles soar in a
cobalt-blue sky, rested awhile with a 2000-year-old cedar, hugged a child
while we watched a butterfly dry its wings and fly, fed wild songbirds
perched on my fingers, sang with friends, talked with the wise.... I know
of My Lai, Dachau, East Timor, the Gaza Strip, Burma, Wounded Knee-
tragedies too numerous to mention, too painful to forget. I've lived in
heaven; I've read of hell.  The memory of one comfort the knowledge of the
other.

Uh I think they mean heaven and hell as places.

The Karen Range is a place. Dachau is a place.

Q. I'll put undecided. Do you believe in angels?

A. Doesn't everyone with children?

AnotherundecidedThankyouforyourtimegoodbye.


For what it's worth, I'm warden of an Anglican church. Our last priest had
a Confucian heritage, our current one is a converted Jew, and I was raised
on stories of Raven and Coyote.  I find ritual comforting, church politics
frustrating, and consider human dignity a damn sight more important than
washing the alter linen or wearing a suit to church (which seems to put me
and the clergy at loggerheads with the parish 'elders').


Traveller? I guess this is pretty off-topic. Just remember not to
stereotype every practicing member of a faith. Torquemande and St Francis
were both Catholics. Rolf ???(forget name) was a Nazi who saved thousands
of Chinese in Nanking.  There's a lot of variation. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:24:41 -0800
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: Escalation (was: Nuking Japan)

> Date:          Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:29:45 -0500
> From:          Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> 
> Works until you are losing. According to what I've read of NATO battle
> plans (and I'm not an expert), using tactical nukes when conventional
> methods didn't work was part of the plan.

IIRC, for a time (the 70s?) NATO stated they would use tac-nukes to 
respond to any Warsaw Pact invasion because of the perceived 
weaknesses of NATO's conventional forces.


> Personally, I've always favoured immediate massive retaliation by the
> Imperials, because IMTU they are always outnumbered and can't trade
> casualties one-for-one.  Note that I do note necessarily _support_ this
> policy: my Imperium was always a bit darker than GDW's Imperium, and
> tended to do questionable things. 

DGP gave the Vilani this aspect in the Vilani&Vargr sourcebook:
long conventional wars are expensive - its much more efficient to 
nuke your enemy back into a proper appreciation of the order of 
things.  Of course, this is fine if you are in a position of strength 
as the 1st Imperium was; it get's awfully messy when your opponents 
can return the favour.

You can use this to set up some discord between the Solomani and 
Vilani (and any other) influences in the Imperium.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:12:43 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Relativistic Travel Times

I'm interested in the idea of a high-tech universe (or world) where
FTL travel is either impossible or not yet discovered.  I did some
looking into relativity and tried to derive travel time equations
and ended up with differential equations which stumpted me.  Does
anyone have the formulas for travel time given a fixed acceleration
taking into account relativistic effects?  Does anyone know of a good
book which deals with this?  How about a web page?

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:51:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

 
> I too suspect that this is the Sylea class.  The old art gave Sylea as
> 100,000 tons.  But that falls into the cruiser class.  The design is
> in some ways similar.
 
In CT 100ktons was pretty much a CA, true. The art in Library Data
makes it look a lot more like a Star Destroyer from Star Wars,
though.

I never really liked many of the ships in that book (FSotSI). The
cruisers and the BI-15--oh, and the EDs--were the only ones I liked.
The tenders were dumb as hell, too.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:34:13 -0800
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: 3D combat

>> In combat (as opposed to sector maps) 2D and 3D are the same if there are 3
>> or less units.  If there are more that 3 we use conventional mapping
>> techniques plus an altitude notation.
>>
[snip]
>
>Actually, you can wind up needing 3D if there are only *three* ships.
>While three points define a plane, the *vectors* may not be coplanar.
>With two ships, you *can* define a plane that'll hold both ships, by
>"defining" one of them as being "at rest". Then the manuevers work out
>ok.

Try one ship. Vectors can change in time, and a single ship can have a
delta vee that changes in three dimensions. Try to plot a single ship
corkscrewing on a 2D map; you can't.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:04:38 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Death of  "Fusion Plus"

>I concur, but sugqest that "FusionPlus" would probably be the marketing
>name for the technology.  We would just note in TTA that it is
>generically 
>the first application of nascent Nuclear Damper technologies to the
>problem 
>of fusion, much like antimatter spiking or muon catalzation.

I rather like the Fusion+.  It has more commercial potential if you make the
'+' in striking contrast with the word fusion.

I'm thinking of a very futuristic techno-inspired font (that is, mechanical,
slanted letters with larger tops than bases), bottom half of the letters dark
blue, top half light blue with a large, striking violet '+' at the end, half
covering the 'n' in fusion...

Now all it needs is a catchy slogan...

"This ain't grandpa's power plant!" (no connection to _the_ grandpa)

"Just like fusion, only smaller."

"Lightweight, Low Maintenance, Hi-POWERED!"

Then I'm imagining, in the lower right corner of the advertisement, a dark
blue "Z", its design suggesting a pyramid, and below it the blurb: 

"Zhunastu Industries: We make the things that work...  for you."

and below that contact information.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:11:38 -0800
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?

> From:          "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
> Date:          Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:34:18 -0600
> 
> Take a small NiFe asteroid, say 100 m in diameter.  It would have a volume
> of c.  523,600 cubic meters and a mass of c.  4,188,800 tons.  Let's call
> that 4 MT for convenience.  Let's say you accelerate it at 1 m/s/s for just
> 1 hour (3,600 seconds).  It now has a velocity of 3.6 km/s (that's over
> 8,000 MPH).  At that speed, it will have a kinetic energy of 5.184e+10 kN.

   Keep in mind the impact speed will be based the difference in 
orbital velocities between the planet and the rock (which could vary 
from 0 to 10s of km/s), plus the acceleration the planet adds to the 
rock on its way in (which could add several km/s).  In the case of 
Earth, drop a rock straight in in the direction of Sol, and it'll hit 
Earth at 30-40 km/s.  You do have to remove the rock's normal orbital 
velocity (on the order of 10 km/s at the asteroid belt, IICC).


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:40:34 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright/Porperty rights

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

>         [[What I actually had in mind, though, was that this product reproduces and
> disseminates material without permission of the authors involved.  Which,
> based on my hazy knowledge of intellectual property law, or at least commonly
> accepted citation practice, is questionable. ]] The problem here is I don't
> have a way to contact all 500+ current and former TML/Xboat members for
> permission (if you can come up with a reasonable way to do it though.....). In
> some cases I already have their permission. The best I can do is state that
> copyright remains in the hands of the poster of the material (and Far Future
> Enterprises). I do have permission for over half the material on the disk.

 If this helps you got my permission.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:23:00 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review

I was writing an essay on certain elements of Imperial culture, and got an
idea for this 'vid review'.  This is purely background flavor, and if you
don't dig that kind of stuff, then I guess you'd better move on!  

Extra bonus points if you can figure out what heavily Traveller inspired
computer game spawned the name "Tom Jetland".

Imperial Movie Database search returned the following entry for "Tom Jetland:
High Passage":

This review is reprinted from the magazine "VidFanatic", date 120-1102

"Tom Jetland: High Passage"
***1/2 (out of 5)

Vidnotes (taken from the back of the package):

The crew of the far trader 'Trebixim Nolo' is back, and badder than ever in
the Tom Jetland vid that you just have to see to believe!  Gal Konriv, Liisha,
and Ugkfoung Akuedharrgh head the cast of this edge-of-your seat thriller from
the producers of "Tom Jetland: Killer Cargo"!

Jetland (Konriv) buys an illegal cargo of bexrin furs and tries to unload them
at a trading post on the other side of the Solomani border.  He gets more than
he bargained for as a high passenger on his ship turns out to be a member of
the underhanded Solomani authorities!  His ship is impounded, and he ends up
on a world in the grips of a brutal civil war.  While there he meets a
beautiful and mysterious freedom fighter (the acting debut of the Vilani
fashion model Liisha) who needs his help to save her world from the iron fist
of Solomani rule.  As he molds her ragtag guerillas into an unstoppable
fighting force, he finds love and lust with the mysterious rebel.  The action
reaches the boiling-point as Jetland leads commando raids against enemy
targets in order to smash the oppressors and liberate the freedom-loving
people of the planet...

The ending is so pulse-pounding and heart-stopping, we could never think of
ruining it for you here!  You have to watch for yourself and see why the Tom
Jetland series is your first choice for action and adventure!

Cast:

Gal Konriv as Tom Jetland
Ugkfoung Akuedharrgh as his fearless, wisecracking sidekick Lucky
Liisha as Clarissa Hart
Brice Manil as Engineer Kindahi
Ellyana Harman as Morgana 'Corkscrew' McTavish
Girur Duliirumar as Comm Officer Karshugaa 
Sir Malcolm Kuahnir as Party Member Biloski
and introducing Stephon Malkinne as Jake

Review:

Okay, you saw the first Tom Jetland vid and you loved it.  I don't blame you,
it was fantastic, a classic among actionvids.  You saw the second one, and
when it was over, you felt a warm glow as Jetland saved the emperor from an
assassination plot.  If you were like me, by the time you got to the third the
formula was tired, the stereotypes were stale, and even the comic stylings of
vargr comedian Ugkfoung Akuedharrgh ceased to be funny.  Then, you watched
four, five, six, and by the time you got to seven, you wondered why you even
liked the first.  "Tom Jetland: High Passage" is basically a really terrible
vid, even by the standards of most fans of the genre.  If the characters were
stale by the third vid, they are positively rotten now.

Konriv (recently voted "Sexiest Human Male of the Year" by Eternity Magazine)
does what he does best: smiles, poses, and does acrobatic stunts while
peppering the bad guys with his patented double-pistol barrage.  Konriv
recently complained that he was sick of being typecast, and he wanted to move
on to more serious roles...  Sorry Gal, this ain't the way to go about it!
Ugkfoung Akuedharrgh returns as Jetland's furry and lovable sidekick Lucky,
but he seems bored and uninspired throughout the vid.  One of the fluffy plush
Lucky dolls that all the kids wanted for Holiday a few years back could have
done a better job.  Brice Manil reprises the role of the gruff, laconic
Engineer Kindahi, and Girur Duliirumar once again plays the tired stereotype
of the annoyingly by-the-numbers Vilani Comm Officer.  I shudder to think of
what each of these actors will do when this series runs its course!  Ellyana
Harman replaces Jake Hollister in the role of astrogator.  With the exception
of a new name and the fact that the character is female, it is the exact same
role that Hollister 'prefected', the trash-talking and ultra-cool war veteran
with mirrored shades and a nihilistic air.  Give me a break.  Please!
Newcomer Stephon Malkinne is a complete nuisance as the sickeningly cute 9
year old guerilla Jake who vows revenge on the Solomani marines who killed his
parents.  Why they needed 'kid appeal' for such a violent movie is beyond me. 

The action sequences are what you come to expect of this series, only with
better special effects and a much bigger scale.  After all, Jetland and his
crew are at war here!  The military hardware looks expensive and deadly.
Despite all of the bad points of this movie, the action does move on at a good
clip.  The battle sequences are really high-octane and faster-than-light.  The
script and dialogue, however, are completely atrocious.  I mean, so bad that
the movie is almost unwatchable.  The viscious anti-Solomani slant of this
movie is completely disgusting.  I really thought we moved past such caustic
stereotypes years ago.  Why the honorable Sir Malcolm Kuahnir would accept
such a role as the Party Leader is really beyond me.  He had been the idol of
my youth with such classic vid's as "Dresden's Decision" and "Lady Jaenshi's
Holiday", and to see him now is almost embarassing.  I guess some people can
be lured to any depths in pursuit of the almighty credit.

If this was all there was to this vid, I'd give it one star, or two stars
based on the special effects and action sequences alone.  Many of you will
have noted by now that I gave it three and a half stars.  Many of you are
probably wondering why I've even given it that many, since I've panned it
pretty badly so far.  After you see this movie, you'll understand.  The Vilani
fashion model Liisha makes a stunning vid debut.  She is amazing as the sexy
and enigmatic Clarissa Hart.  All of the hype surrounding this release was
dead-on, at least about her.  She is able to take the most terrible, cliched
lines and perform them with such ability and grace that she alone makes the
movie.  The off-Solomani accent she puts on for this vid is very impressive,
especially since (according to her publicity corps) she has never taken an
acting lesson in her life.  Her facial expressions and body language show
clearly that she is that rare find, an actress with a raw, natural talent.  If
you watch this vid for no other reason, watch it to see her in action.  It
will take your breath away, and you'll love every minute of the movie while
she is on screen.  It makes you wonder what could be if she ever gets a good
role to work with.

And yes, as the closing credits roll that is Namidu Sharudkariin singing
"Kirugili Mashi Linuru (Love Under Glass)".  It amazes me that someone with
her credentials would agree to cut an original single for such a terrible
production.  Although I'm no music critic, I'd be willing to bet that this is
one cube that'll go lanthanum.


Reviewed by: Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:20:47 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re Merchant Prince Character Gen

Shawn, 

Wasn't fixed in my printing of MT. Got it from DGP errata IIRC. (or made it
up)
so long ago, I can't remember.

Cheers

Del


Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:17:29 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Re Merchant prince character Gen

>
>Looking at my LBB #7, it seems to be in free traders, where
>the rank O4 requires Pilot, which is not available in the tables,
>to counteract this, change the second Steward (#5 on Free Trader
>Business) to Pilot instead. Think this is the answer from the
>MT Errata packs.
>

I read #7 more closely. You are correct. The answer wasn't in an errata. It
was actually fixed in MT.

- - -Shawn
Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
dojones@whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:18:51 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?

> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Legate said:
> >And your point being?  As everyone in the English Speaking World knows the
> >French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video.  Add
> >to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis 
> I am shocked...shocked, do you hear...to diascver that this base canard is
> still circulating in an educated venue such as the TML. 

Where is that damn duck? ;<)

Please be as shocked as you want.  I also say that the next time a few AF
planes are flying over France a few bombs should "accidently" be released. 
This of course is my theory & I'm sticking to it.

> No, this is a case of mistaken identity. The French do not believe that Jerry
> Lewis is a comedic genius. They believe that Sherry (S-h-e-r-r-y) Lewis is a
> comedic Genius. Pronounce eet weeth a comeek Fraaanch aczent, and you will
> zee. . .zat Lamb zchop, she ees zo cute, and ze Charley Horse, he ze everyman,
> no?

Oh, my god, the French have taken over the TML.  What should I do.  I know
I shall us a Nuclear Missile Salvo from my Patrol Cruiser.  As any Good &
Right-thinking Gamer knows is that the French should all be lightly toasted
& served with butter & a nice white wine.

> Loren (did I achieve this month's quota of nasal beverage expulsion?) Wiseman

Hi ya Loren, still in Normal,, IL, or did you move to the big city?

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:11:14 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Former Traveller publishers

> From: Kagehira@aol.com
> Judges Guild    

Bob is still in Decatur, IL.  Chuck Denning knows him & might know how to
get in touch with him.  Email me for more.

> Paranoia Press [Chuck Kallenbach, anyone know here he disappeared to]

See above.

> Robert W. Warfield    

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:38:36 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU> asks:



>Does anybody know the name of this class, BTW?  (Or other classes in
>FSotSI?)  I know that the ED-15 is the Rapier, and a few others (BR-14) 
>were named in Battle Rider, IIRC.  BI-15 might be the Sylea.  I know that
>the CT supplement Fighting Ships gave names for some of them, but I don't
>have that one.  If anyone has this info, can you please post a list (or a
>URL)?  Thanks!


  I believe the EM-15 is the P.F.Sloan, though the hull config is wrong
(I would consider the Sloan a config 3 cylinder, not a cone). Check the
first issue of Challenge (#25?) and Fighting Ships (Supp #9).
  With capital ships going through a serious growth spurt between CT
and MT, you wouold be hard pressed to find other matches. Only the
Provincial Carrier has a near match, and there are (different) pictures
provided for the two designs...

>Where is the Tigress design from?  What is it?


 It's the largest design in Supplement 9: Fighting Ships (for CT).
At 500ktons disp it brooks no disagreements. One squadron of these
monsters is stationed at Rhylanor, and several more hold the blockade
at Andory and Candor (all circa 1110). It appears to have no parallel
within the pages of FSotSI.

>How much canonical information is there on Zhodani capital ship classes?


 Nothing concrete that I'm aware of.
 The largest Zhodani designs to see print are 2000tons (the Vlezhdatl
by FASA and the Council Cruiser in the Zhodani Alien Module; both CT).
A couple of our local TML-gearheads have designed capital ships for the
Zhodani, but the names and URLs escape me at the moment.

GC.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #191
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 192



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Getting Stoned
Naamidu Sharudkariin Live on Vland - Longish Concert review.
Re: 300,000 T passenger liner
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Some stuff about my posts:
Re: Galaxies in collision?
re: Eris saith
Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?
Re: Dhe comment from a non-Traveller
Re: Some stuff about my posts:
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2
Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?
Beginning Campaign
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Re: new question of the week
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:23:49 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> an LAPD officer was struggling with a suspect who was armed with a .22 pistol.
>  The gun went off, hitting the officer in the foot.  Withing ten minutes he
> was dead from shock.
> 
> At Khe Sanh in 1968, a NVA sapper was hit with at least three rounds from a
> .50cal macine gun at close range.  The man stood up, and walked away.

> Things like this make me wonder why I'm trying to design a combat system.

Obviously they were both using TNE rules.  The LAPD Officer was an NPC
so he only had a few hit points.  The NVA sniper on the other hand was a
player charecter so he had lots of hit points....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 04:33:48 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Naamidu Sharudkariin Live on Vland - Longish Concert review.

As most of my major postings have been recently, this is yet another longish
piece of background material.  After I wrote the "Tom Jetland" movie review, I
decided to flesh out the character of Naamidu Sharudkariin, who is already an
NPC in my campaign that the PCs have had indirect contact with, and I could
think of no better way to do it than with a concert review.  There's some
background info towards the beginning about her, which is just to set up her
character, but I am rather proud of the concert review itself and if you've
liked my previous stuff, I think you'll probably like this as well.  As
always, I welcome any and all feedback and suggestions, since I am really
having a ball writing this stuff!



Welcome to the Magnum Magazine Database.  Please enter your search criteria:

>"Naamidu Sharudkariin" AND concert AND Vland

Entry #1:  Concert review from Magnum Magazine 141-1100

Concert Review:  Naamidu Sharudkariin Live on Vland

If you're a music fan in the Imperium, then you've undoubtedly heard the
legendary Naamidu Sharudkariin, and if you haven't heard her, you've at least
heard of her.  I happened to be the lucky reviewer that Magnum picked to catch
her highly touted concert on Vland.  Let me tell you, it was one of the most
amazing experiences I have had the pleasure to be involved with.

Naamidu got her start a decade ago after she graduated from the Akeshuna
School on Cameron in the Daibei sector.  According to her biography, her
parents shipped her to this school (a subsector and a half away) because they
were Vilani traditionalists, and they wanted to send her to a school that
taught the history, language, and culture of the "old ways".  She became
quickly fascinated with the beauty and splendor of Vilani folk music and
learned to play several antiquated instruments (even going so far as building
her own irkhamarzali when she couldn't find one for sale).  Her natural
musical talents and charming personality quickly gained her a devout group of
admirers on Cameron, many of whom she now employs as her ashushukshikhu or
"inner circle" on her tour.

Soon, her fame spread to even the non-Vilani on Cameron, and she became a huge
sensation.  Her self-produced demo album was beginning to get airplay on
nearby mainworlds, and she became an overnight sensation.  She was offered
several major cube deals, but held out until she was offered a lucrative
contract on the Muulamamku label, a subsidiary of the megacorporation
Makhidkarun.  Her cubes shot to the top of the charts, which was a surprise to
everybody, since she performed traditional Vilani arrangements in the original
language using the original instruments.  Her selfless determination to her
work is now almost legendary to anyone who watches the vids or reads the
trades.  She went out of her way to keep as much of the original sound intact
as possible, using none of the modern tricks of the trade.  Her musicvids were
low key, devoid of the flash and hype that most performers rely on these days.
She was a rare case, she managed to make it to the top on her music alone.
Her impact as a performer is felt in every corner of the Imperium, and quite
possibly even beyond.

She became a sex symbol for boys, earthy yet paradoxically ethereal, there was
something for every red-blooded Imperial male to latch onto.  She became a
wholesome idol for girls.  For the first time in memory, a performer came
along that kids could dig, and not be embarassed that their parents listened
to her too.

But, you probably already know all of this, unless you've spent the past
decade in a cave.

Her live show on Vland was one of those rare instances when a concert is no
longer a concert, but instead becomes something more sublime, an event.  This
was all with good reason, since the concert had been five years in the
planning.  It was designed to be a celebration of the many facets of Vilani
culture, old and new, for Vilani and Vilanilekane (or "non-Vilani") alike.
Here, one could find many different traditional vilani dishes prepared by some
of the finest shugili, while they watched khigikha (short silent plays) on a
second stage.  Around the grounds, one could purchase all manner of Vilani
artifacts, ranging from adushirga (cheap plastic good luck charms, popular
among young girls today) to intricately crafted works of giingiinke art.  The
smells were mouth watering, the plays were wonderful, and the sampling of
Vilani culture was amazing.  With all honesty, not all of the food tasted as
good as it smelled, but it wasn't to hard to find something delicious.  Huge
vidscreens flanked the stage, and before the bands played, images were
supplied by the Dagaga artists collective.  It was hard not to fall into a
trance while watching the hypnotic images flash and dance on the screens.  The
whole place was wired for <InterAct vid> (known to many as InterActVid), which
explains why the scenes pulsed with the life of the crowd.

As the 72,000+ people that turned out for the concert soon found out when
Zadageseskhaarii took the stage at sunset, the place was wired for kaadmukim
(InterAct music) as well.  I had never had the pleasure of seeing this
underground group heat up the beat live before, and let me say it was one of
the most amazing experiences I've ever had.  This group of asha kaadmukim
slapped the cubes like you would not believe.  The feeling of interacting with
over 72,000 bodies creating a unique, unrepeatable twisting, maddening,
intensely tribal show is just awe-inspiring.  I didn't see one person of any
persuasion that wasn't shaking their hips to the spiralling beats.  The beats
would speed up as the audience danced faster and faster, then, at the point of
exhaustion, the tempo would slow drastically, and the crowd would seem to die,
and after a brief respite, the beats would speed up again.  The experience of
oneness with the crowd was mind-altering.  I would venture to say you've never
lived until you were a part of the Zadageseskhaarii hive (as they call their
fans).  As the crowd seemed to become more and more exhausted, the music
became more and more ambient, and over the course of almost an hour faded
away.  I was completely spent, the audience was completely spent.  Now I know
why no one ever chants for Zadageseskhaarii encore.

I would have thought that this band was a showstopper, if they stopped the
concert and told everyone to go home, I think they would have without any
trouble.  That all changed after teeny-bopper sensation Ugama took the stage!
The deliciously silly vidpop aura of this feel-good band brought the crowd
back to life in short order.  As they bopped and pogoed across the stage to
their zany beats and goofy lyrics, it was impossible not to bop, pogo and sing
along with them.  They played such wonderfully poppy tunes as "Khemka Igag
Enaka (Heartache Is Like Jumpsickness)", and "Amukir Shii (Happy Flower)".
They closed with their lanthanum hit single "Shepurgakhi (Hypertiny)", the big
surprise was that Naamidu herself came out and sang it duet-style with Ugama's
lead singer Uda Ugama!  I think every jaw on that field must have dropped!  I
would have never expected such a that strange situation would have unfolded
before my eyes.  After it was all over, she made a point of asking for Uda's
autograph, and said she was one of their biggest fans.  The crowd roared for
an encore, and they played three of the new songs from their upcoming album
including the title track, "Aarbekhisaku (Lollipop King)", but Miss
Sharudkariin did not come back out.

I did not care too much for the next band, Khakunasum (Cinderblock), as I'm
not a fan of this whole genre of gushiimukim (chaos-noise/music).  They seemed
to be a hit among many of the older teens, however, and they did put on a
rather...  frightening show.  Their vidwork was custom, and displayed scenes
of graphic violence that was cut from Xboat newsfeeds of wars across the
Imperium, as well as grav car crashes, and scenes from ultraviolent horror
vids.  The crowd reacted in a violent, yet surprisingly controlled fashion, as
they moved with the rage of the music.  Their lyrics, bellowed, whispered,
spoken, screeched and distorted were mostly pointed attacks on Imperial
policy, especially towards member worlds, and they closed with
"Irdiriibisundun Mukidi (Rape of the Protected)" which was about the massacre
of a droyne reservation at the hands of a religious dictatorship while the
Imperial authorities looked on.  Even as I was not a fan, it was hard not feel
pain as these things were exposed in the night air.  As an interesting note,
all of the proceeds that Khakunasam received from this performance were
donated to "The Brotherhood of the Rorani", a watchdog group dedicated to
documenting and exposing the crimes against humaniti that some worlds are
known for.

Then came a lengthy intermission.  I looked at my watch, and an amazing five
hours had passed since Zadageseskhaarii came on stage!  Most of the crowd had
been there for at least eight hours, and none looked the least bit tired!  In
fact, they all seemed hyped up to see Naamidu's set.  Halfway through the
intermission, Naamidu came out onto the stage and informed the audience that a
there were several booths throughout the grounds that were selling special t-
shirts to commemorate the concert, and that the proceeds would be split
equally between "The Brotherhood of the Rorani" and Ipushashangaa (the
Heritage Foundation; a group dedicated to preserving the art and culture of
old Vland and the First Imperium).  Within a few moments, the supply of shirts
was completely exhausted (as it turns out, the shirts and independent
donations raised almost Cr750,000 for charity).

As the crowd wound down, Naamidu came out on stage in a regal, flowing gown,
her hair done up in the style of a musician of old Vland.  She cradled her
handmade irkhamarzali in her arms.  She introduced herself with her full
Vilani name, dipped into a small curtsy, and began to play.  The vidscreens
showed a close-up view of her upper body as she sang the very first song she
learned to play, a children's counting song called "Agi Shugili (the Proud
Food Preparer)".  At the end of this song, the crowd went wild with cheers,
and young children were raised up onto the shoulders of their parents and
older siblings.  She curtsied again, politely thanked the crowd for their
applause, and began playing her recent lanthanum single "Shiggikhigaagum (The
Joining of Hands)".  As she did so, the crowd joined hands and sang along, and
I saw tears in the eyes of many in the audience.  A chill went up my spine as
I realized once again what an event this was, and how lucky I was to be
watching, and tears welled up in my eyes as well as I sang along.  After she
finished that song, the crowd clapped, but there were no cheers and no hoots.
There was a mystic energy to the crowd, a collective release that was even
more wonderful and profound than when the whole crowd interacted as a hive
during the first band's set.  She went through the rest of her set in a
business-like fashion that is purely and uniquely Vilani.  Towards the end of
the set a nakashim was wheeled out, and she sat on the bench and played the
final grouping of her songs, finishing with her first single, "Ulusishamiska
Eragu (Song of the Veterans)".  After she left the stage, the applause was
thunderous and went on for at least fifteen minutes, swelling and dying and
swelling again.  Out of respect for Naamidu, they didn't chant for an encore
(it was her policy not to give them, as she sees no point in holding out on
her fans for the sake of applause).  But, she proved she was full of surprises
by coming out on the stage again.  She said quietly (in Vilani), "As you, my
fans, know, I give you everything I have to give to you when I come out on
stage.  As I walked off the stage tonight, I had a great and painful debate
with myself, and felt ashamed.  I have recently composed an original piece,
not my first, but the only one that I have felt is of a high enough quality to
give to an audience.  As I entered my dressing room, I noted with considerable
shame that I have not given you all I have to give.  I did keep something to
myself.  So I have come out here with the purpose of rectifying the situation,
and so I present to you Kirugili Mashi Linuru (Love Under Glass), and beg your
forgiveness."  I was astounded, to say the least, and didn't see this
'transgression' as even needing to be forgiven.  I don't think that there are
any performers more dedicated to their fans than she is.  The song was
absolutely and truly so wonderful and beautiful that words cannot describe it.
My only wish as I left the grounds of concert, content and blissfully aware of
the beauty of this vast interstellar community we live in, and the wonderful
differences and similarities that we share, was that Naamidu Sharudkariin will
have a long and happy life.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:49:30 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 300,000 T passenger liner

>Why would you have 58,000 people going from one world to another as a
>regular course of events?  I can't think of reasons.  Thoughts?
>

Look at Mora in SPinward marches. 2 parsecs from mora is another pop 10 TL
15 A-port system. Imagine the HUGE volume of passenger traffic between...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:55:36 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

>        Guaranteed to start a fight with a coworker if I equate atheism (a
>definite belief concerning Supreme Being(s), namely that they don't exist)
>with religion ...
>
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

..or you could argue that atheists simply apply Occams razor to the problem...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 04:58:42 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Some stuff about my posts:

In the posts I've been putting up on the list, I'm trying to make a believable
future "world" of sorts, but I may need help from some of the 'old-heads' out
there should I make any mistakes in canon.  If you spot any mistakes in canon
(or in grammar, or what have you), please tell me right away so I can change
it.  If anyone is a Vilani expert and can tell me if I have made any glaring
errors in my use of the language, please tell me.

Some minor errata and clarifications, Naamidu Sharudkariin's name is not
spelled correctly at the end of my "Tom Jetland" review.  If it seems strange
that Naamidu doesn't seem like to type to have a song on the "Tom Jetland"
soundtrack after you read the concert review, don't lose any sleep over it.
The situation will be explained in future postings.

Other than that, I am very proud of Naamidu.  She's probably one of the
coolest NPCs that I have ever created.  I have cut her out of the same cloth
as Tori Amos, so that may help you imagine what she's like.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:09:31 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Galaxies in collision?

>This *is* relevant to Traveller, as it makes a difference in how much
>"stuff" is likely to be between stars.
>
>The "dark matter" the *cosmologists* talk about amounts to something
>like 90% of the mass of the universe. *That* is a "handwave" that even
>*they* aren't comfortable with. They are only willing to consider it
>because if the "observable" mass (which includes the "dark matter" in
>galaxies!) isn't that high, certain details regarding the big bang get
>*truly* bizarre.
>
>There's apparently been some recent research that measures the relative
>motiuon of galactic clusters or some other "large scale" phenomenom
>that seems to indicate that the "cosmological dark matter" *doesn't*
>exist. In which case it *will* be thrown out the window, and they'll
>have to try to explain how we got the current universe from a much less
>massive big bang.

Thanks for pointing out my error in mixing the two very different terms
dark matter and dark matter. As my regard for observational astronomers and
astrophysicist are very high and my regard for cosmologists is on par with
psychoanalysts/macro-economists I will for my own personal use adopt the
term "dark matter" for whatever stuff that doesn't shine such as dust,
brown dwarfs, beer cans and misjumped ships and for the cosmologists
version I'll simply call "handwave matter".

Back on topic: Someone (Bruce?) noted in passing a rule for getting rid of
all those White Dwarfs in already generated sectors. Something like M5 or
dimmer size VII should change to VI. Anybody have a reason for this, why
jsut there etc? I'll just need a rule that I haven't entirely plucked from
vacuum to rule my system generation from now on.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:19:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Eris saith

>Union General Hooker, while in charge of New Orleans, always had some
>mistresses around his office. When a visitor would ask, "Who are they?",
>the aides would respond "They're Hooker's". And so the slang term was
>born....
>
>
>Walt Smith

Is this a "fact" ie written down somewhere. Stuff like this is great to
collect and drop during lunch breaks. I'll give you one for free:
The terms sabotage supposedly comes from french female weavers (is that a
word, machine operators producing clothing fabrics). At some point the got
irritated of low wages/working conditions and used their wooden shoes to
damage the machines. These shoes are called "sabot" in french (yes the same
root for the military sabot term). So they "sabotaged" the factory.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:24:10 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

>I don't think the starport capacity is over-discussed.  Admittedly,
>I've only been on the TML for 12 months, but I only recall two starport
>threads.
>
>One was about number of berths.
>
>The other is the current one about trading levels.
>
>Maybe when we get the TML CD we can use the yet-to-be-designed indexing
>tool to search for all those old discussion threads.
>
>Simon

Jeff Zeitlin calculated the number of berths sometime back (he noted in
passing that the White Dwarf starport-photocopy-and-die article fit his
numbers very well). Is the article on the web or could Mr Zeitlin plesase
e-mail me it as I'm really interested.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:27:02 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Dhe comment from a non-Traveller

>In the process of figuring the "correct" odds on Dhe, I spoke to
>my father, who in turn spoke to a guy ("BD") he knows that does
>hyperadvanced math by intuition (he also writes damn near perfect
>computer code the same way).  BD said that he'd love to see it at
>a casino; it's nice and simple, yet has possibilities.  He
>suggests one change in the rules - instead of having the croupier
>throw the dice, have the players rotate throwing the dice, until
>the player either wins or loses, at which point the throw passes
>to the next player.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

No can do. The Vargr NEVER allow the players themselves throwing dice as
they're sooo good at cheating (swapping dice, Mercury filled cavities,
magnetic dot inks etc). If the Croupier rolls only he can cheat which is
how it is done in the Vargr extents.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:00:18 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Some stuff about my posts:

>In the posts I've been putting up on the list, I'm trying to make a believable
>future "world" of sorts, but I may need help from some of the 'old-heads' out
>there should I make any mistakes in canon.  If you spot any mistakes in canon
>(or in grammar, or what have you), please tell me right away so I can change
>it.  If anyone is a Vilani expert and can tell me if I have made any glaring
>errors in my use of the language, please tell me.

OK, I'll put forth some criticism. Please note that I found your posts very
interesting and the critique below is only there to tell you what I found
qestionable from a standpoint of my Traveller universe.

>Her self-produced demo album was beginning to get airplay on
>nearby mainworlds, and she became an overnight sensation.

Call the music pieces something other than "albums". The term seem very
20th century earth centric and actually a bit oldfashioned in the 1990s as
well. Call them cubes, song-group, fiche, file, block etc or something in
Vilani. ALso I found the term "airplay" questionable on the same grounds.
Use feedtime, hitcounts, use, loads or something.

Refrain from using today terms:
"...something for every red-blooded Imperial male..."
"But, you probably already know all of this, unless you've spent the past
decade in a cave."
Perhaps:
"But, you probably already know all of this, unless you've spent the past
decade in hyperspace/low passage."
"That all changed after teeny-bopper sensation Ugama took the stage!
The deliciously silly vidpop aura of this feel-good band brought the crowd
back to life in short order.  As they bopped and pogoed across the stage to
their zany beats and goofy lyrics, it was impossible not to bop, pogo and sing
along with them."


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:50:01 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

At 10:06 PM 18/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I too suspect that this is the Sylea class.  The old art gave Sylea as
>100,000 tons.  But that falls into the cruiser class.  The design is
>in some ways similar.
>
>Anyway, compare this size with the size of a Star Wars vessel:
>
>	Star Destroyer			1600 m
>	Super Star Destroyer		7500 m (?)
>	Super Duper Star Destroyer	17,500 m
>
>or one of the vessels from the Honor Harrington series:
>
>	Nike (?)			1600 m (?)
>
>This supports my argument that Traveller ships need to be BIGGGERR.
>
>-Dan
However they also give the mass of big freighters and Super Dreadnaughts as
about 7,000,000 tons, which at standard densitys would be around the 500kT
displacement mark.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:01:06 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review

At 01:23 AM 19/02/98 EST, Semo wrote:
>I was writing an essay on certain elements of Imperial culture, and got an
>idea for this 'vid review'.  This is purely background flavor, and if you
>don't dig that kind of stuff, then I guess you'd better move on!  
>
>Extra bonus points if you can figure out what heavily Traveller inspired
>computer game spawned the name "Tom Jetland".

The Mars Saga
I thought it was neat when it came out on the old C-64. Went to the trouble
of getting an emulator the other day just for nostalgia - now all I need is
the blasted code wheel...

Let's hear it for the Particle Accelerator Gun.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:53:38 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

At 10:13 PM 18/02/98 -0500, Dan wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> 
>> At 05:12 PM 18/02/98 -0500, Dan wrote:

>> >For example, I did a VERY CRUDE experiment to measure interior hull
>> >volume
>> >of the IOWA class BB's with a result of approximately 4770 Dt.  Not as
>> >much
>> >as I expected, but then again, the BB's displaced so much (46,000 -
>> >62,000
>> >tons) because they had so much solid steel on them.  Guns, armor, etc.
>> >
>> >Carriers and Amphibs are essentially specialized cargo ships and are
>> >therefore comprised of much larger open spaces.  Thererefore their
>> >density is smaller.
>> >
>> >BTW, I did my BB displacement experiment using a Revell model which
>> >was flat bottomed.  I suspect that the model was laregly inaccurate.
>> >Anybody possessing further info on this matter, please let me know!
>> >
>> >-Dan
>> 
>> There's a book by one Norman Freidman (sp?) on battleship design and
>> contruction that goes into some detail on hull volumes, etc (though not
>> superstructure volume). IIRC the Iowa's had very fine hulls, so your
>> estimate may not be off by that much. BTW there is an analysis in his book
>> that shows that the US Navy misrepresented the level of protection the
>> Iowa's had for many years.
>> 
>> -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>>    Palmerston North
>>    New Zealand
>> 
>>    "If in doubt - wipe it out."
>
>I would give my left hemispher to get a copy of that book!
>
>-Dan
Sorry I can't even flog the book for you - the only copy I ever saw was in
our local library, and it went missing years ago. He also wrote a couple of
books on submarine and modern warship design, I think. I never got to read
tham, blast it. They would've been even more relevant to Traveller starship
design, because both types of vessel are volume more than mass limited,
unlike BB design.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:16:40 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:28:50 GMT
>From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

>> Well, can we gather the best theories of starport capacity,
>> layout, sizes, facilities et al and build them into a FAQ?

>I don't think the starport capacity is over-discussed.  Admittedly, 
>I've only been on the TML for 12 months, but I only recall two starport 
>threads.

Paul Walker posted an excellant set of rules for shipyards back in 1996.
They are now archived on my web site at:

<http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/library/shipyard.htm>


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:20:06 -0800
From: "Greg Waters" <unclmddy@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Beginning Campaign

This is long because I ramble but thanks for bearing with me.

Recently a friend got me excited about playing Traveler. I had played it a
few years back so I was familiar with the system and the always enjoyable
character generation. However once me and another friend made our
characters, the GM was at a loss of what to do with us. What do you think?

My character's first two terms were with the Scouts as were my friend
John's. Unfortunately I was wounded so I had to carry on in another career
while John went on as a scout. In my two terms I had rolled performance
twice and chose music as the cascade skill. The lonely scout out rimward
keeping himself company with his guitar-equivalent. I couldn't go into
another military service so I thought I would try out the enetertainment
field.

Let's just say we got a little excited rolling dice and after John got out
of the scouts he joined me in the band. After ... um, a few more terms ...
we had reached the safe / obligatory age to carry on an adventuring career.
I had carried on in the band for several terms and John for a few as well.
Rather a healthy music career since when we rolled up our muster benefits we
had four yachts between us and several thousand credits.

Now I'll admit it sounds absurd but imagine rolling up a character that
becomes as legendary as the Stones, or Pink Floyd, etc. We just had to play
them. Especially since we traded in two of the yachts for a lab ship which
is the space-going tour bus / chemical factory / casino. The Traveller
equivalent of the Grateful Dead.

And the GM, an excellent GM in most games, had just gotten so involved that
he was just as excited as us. He wanted to start in the beginning of the
Imperium, in the Holiday year. So my character, having Carousing and Music
at 5 and a social score of 12, felt it only appropriate that I plan the
Coronation and play as well. Its only natural. He gave me an impossible
skill test, which I barely passed, and the whole party was quite memorable.
He had a hard time coming up with what to do with us so we've became
basically self-styled emissaries and started the Rimward Tour to begin off
the new Imperium.

Is this ludicrous? Anyone have ideas for him? Can you play aging rockers and
survive?

Believe me its a lot of fun to say the least.

GGW

BTW - If anyone wants to see the right up of my character's history I'll
send it along.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:48:32 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
> > I too suspect that this is the Sylea class.  The old art gave Sylea as
> > 100,000 tons.  But that falls into the cruiser class.  The design is
> > in some ways similar.
> 
> In CT 100ktons was pretty much a CA, true. The art in Library Data
> makes it look a lot more like a Star Destroyer from Star Wars,
> though.
> 
> I never really liked many of the ships in that book (FSotSI). The
> cruisers and the BI-15--oh, and the EDs--were the only ones I liked.
> The tenders were dumb as hell, too.
> 
> -Merrick


Couldn't agree more.  I've been working on fixing that problem.  You
should see what my brother did with the Midu Agashaam.  But I agree,
the BI-15 and (IMO) the Rift Cruiser looked good.  One of the cruisers
looked decent too.  The others are typical "Vilani" inspired designs
and could use some rethought to be made to look more interesting.

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:57:00 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: new question of the week

> That is totally awesome man!  I thought we'd have to wait eons (like we
> >are doing for the equivelant Gamma World CDROM).
> 
> Gamma World CD-ROM?  Huh?  What? When? How? Where? etc...
> 
> Semo
> 


You didn't know about the Gamma World CDrom we are getting together? 
Are you on the Gamma World email list?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:56:55 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> At 10:06 PM 18/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >I too suspect that this is the Sylea class.  The old art gave Sylea as
> >100,000 tons.  But that falls into the cruiser class.  The design is
> >in some ways similar.
> >
> >Anyway, compare this size with the size of a Star Wars vessel:
> >
> >       Star Destroyer                  1600 m
> >       Super Star Destroyer            7500 m (?)
> >       Super Duper Star Destroyer      17,500 m
> >
> >or one of the vessels from the Honor Harrington series:
> >
> >       Nike (?)                        1600 m (?)
> >
> >This supports my argument that Traveller ships need to be BIGGGERR.
> >
> >-Dan
> However they also give the mass of big freighters and Super Dreadnaughts as
> about 7,000,000 tons, which at standard densitys would be around the 500kT
> displacement mark.
> 
> -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>    Palmerston North
>    New Zealand
> 
>    "If in doubt - wipe it out."

No arguing that canon says 500,000 - 1,000,000 Td.  I'm just saying
that we should design ships to match the art.  If we want big ships
as the art indicates (IMO, the art shows ships with multikilometer
dimensions, having seen most ship typoes in the world today).  My
brother, who has flown past carriers at mach+, thinks they are actually
small.

- -Dan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #192
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 193



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Getting Stoned
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183
Re: 3D combat
Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?
Re: The Death of  "Fusion Plus"
Re: Starport Economics
Re: Relativistic Travel Times
A question about grav compensations (Now GG Refueling)
For Dom/Bryan
Re: Re Merchant Prince Character Gen
Re: The Death of "Fusion Plus"
Re: Re Merchant Prince Character Gen
FFS2 spreadsheet version 2.1 available.
e-mail address change
Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review
Re: Eris saith
Re: new question of the week
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: A question about grav compensations (Now GG Refueling)
Re: Some stuff about my posts:
Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:44:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Getting Stoned

In mail you write:

> DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Getting Stoned
>
>>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>>
>>>  The gun went off, hitting the officer in the foot.  Withing ten 
>>>minutes he was dead from shock.
>> 
>>
>>While working for a mortuary in Phoenix in 1992, I responded to a >call 
> where a gentleman had shot himself in the big toe with a .22 and >died 
> on the phone w/ the 911 operator before Fire/Rescue >arrived...died of 
> shock.
>>
>
> OK all you former military (and not so former)...
>
> Restore the breathing,
> Stop the bleeding,
> Treat for shock....

Sadly, in spite of having been exposed to first aid training, many
people don't recognize the sysmptoms when *they* go into shock. 

I've "gotten shocky" more times than I care to remember. I have this
unfortunate tendency to operate my body *way* too close to the limits. 

Luckily, one time fairly early on, a nurse friend realized what was
going on and made me lie down, get warm etc. After that I learned what
"shock" felt like. So I can do something about it before it does
something to me.

Shock can be *very* insidious.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:19:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In mail you write:

> Add to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry
> Lee Lewis, but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good
> stuff with him.

Uhm...

Jerry Lewis worked with *Dean* Martin. *Don* Martin is an artist for
MAD magazine. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:22:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #183

In mail you write:

>> I have a 2 year old daughter. One of her favorite games is to sit down with
>> a pad of paper, a pen, a calculator and my copy of FFS, and draw on the
>> paper, and press buttons on the calculator. Just like Daddy.
>
> AHA! The True Identity of Ditzie Spofulam is revealed at last!!! 

Wait a few years and you may *wish* it was *only* Ditzie. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:14:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3D combat

In mail you write:

>>> In combat (as opposed to sector maps) 2D and 3D are the same if there are 
> 3
>>> or less units.  If there are more that 3 we use conventional mapping
>>> techniques plus an altitude notation.
>>>
> [snip]
>>
>>Actually, you can wind up needing 3D if there are only *three* ships.
>>While three points define a plane, the *vectors* may not be coplanar.
>>With two ships, you *can* define a plane that'll hold both ships, by
>>"defining" one of them as being "at rest". Then the manuevers work out
>>ok.
>
> Try one ship. Vectors can change in time, and a single ship can have a
> delta vee that changes in three dimensions. Try to plot a single ship
> corkscrewing on a 2D map; you can't.

Aside from "corscrewing" being difficult to carry out, it may still be
possible to treat that ship and a single *other* ship as a 2-d situation.
Especially when you relize that any manuevers involving the "third"
dimension in such a situation are a *waste* of delta-V.

After getting walked all over on r.a.s.s, I'm not going to say that you
*can't* use 2D for such a situation. Remember, nothing states that the
"reference plane" has to be "stationary" as viewd by an outside observer.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:22:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?

In mail you write:

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz
>
>>IIRC the favoured projectile for a sling was a lead slug, about a inch in
>>diameter, which would weigh about a hundred grams. These sling bullets
>>killed a lot of people, even when they wore helmets.
>
> I own a Roman sling pellet (recovered from a 1st century BC siege site, and
> now, I hope, in storage from my move), and it is about an ounce in wt,
> although more of an oblate shperoid, rather like an American football about 2
> inches long and 3/4 in in the middle.

That's a *prolate* spheroid. An oblate spheroid is a lof of
pumpernickel or the the like. More technically, you get a prolate
spheroid ny rotating an ellipse about its major axis. It looks like a
ball that has been stretched.

You get an oblate spheroid by rotating the ellipse about the minor
axis. It looks like a ball that has been *squashed*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:06:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Death of  "Fusion Plus"

In mail you write:

> Another method is to assume that the development of mesonic
> technology, an application of the growing electroweak force
> engineering field (which leads to meson guns and meson screens at
> TL's 11-12) allows more powerfulk containment field for a given
> volume, or more powerful ignition lasers for inertial schemes.

Actually, now that you've jogged my memory, the mere act of
"bombarding" hydrogen with low energy mesons (muons, as I recall) 
makes fusion possible at *very* low temperatures and pressures. 

What happens is that negative muons replace the electrons in the atoms.
But due to various quantum considerations, this reults in the muon's
"orbit" being almost "inside" the nucleus!

That means that the atoms can come close enough for a greatly increased
chance of fusion *without* the need for high temperatures (to ionize
the atoms). You'd still want a fair amount of pressure as that pushes
the atoms closer together.

Then only reason "muonic" fusion isn't being worked on is that it is
very hard to produce the muons, and they decay too quickly to be of use.

But give a source of muons that can produce larger numbers of them at
low energy costs, you've got your fusion technology.

Also, "muonic" atoms of heavier elements are likely to be part of the
process of creating superdense. Given a "muon projector" you could
"collapse" ordinary matter rather easily. It's *stabilizing* it that's
a pain.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:25:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starport Economics

In mail you write:

> traders each week!  As I mentioned in my posting on starport berths, 
> IMTU these low-traffic systems are good adventure fodder:
>
> "Nope, 'fraid we ain't got none cargo this week.  You might want to 
> visit Joe Windlake's place, as I hear he is harvesting real soon.
>
> "No, you don't need a special bit of paper to fly your space wagon 
> there ... just be careful where you land.  I reckon you'd be better 
> taking a ride, t'aint mor'n five days by horse and I'm sure fancy chaps 
> like you will have one of them floating contraptions to do it in no 
> time.  Joe'll be happy to set aside a place to set down once he knows 
> you're coming.
>
> "Radio?  No, i don't reckon he has one" 

I was nodding along with you until that last line. Anyplace that gets
visited regularly by ships *will* have radios or satellite phone
equivalents. *Especially* when folks are several days travel apart.
Take a good look at northern Canada and Alaska, or any number of third
world countries. 

The people (or at least the *villiages* get radios or phones as soon as
they can scrape the cash together, if the government doesn't supply one
first. Governments like them, because it lets them get by with fewer
troops and fewer "medical officers". People like them because they mean
that they can call for a doctor, or give or receive warnings about
bandits and troops from neighboring countries. And they can call into
the "big" towns for advice on crops, planting, and medicine. And for
isolated farms, cabins, etc not only do they provide contact with other
people, but if you miss checking in a couple days in a row, folks will
be headed out the fastest way then can, because you must be in trouble!

What you *will* run into (assuming a model more like the Yukon than
the third world) is:

"Joe's on channel 237. But there's no point calling him until the
afternoon. Mornings he's pretty busy with chores, and he goes to bed
pretty early. But late afternoon, or early evening, he'll be swapping
news with the other farmers."

"What? Oh yeah, you *could get hold of him with an emergency signal
most any time. But folks get *real* unhappy with anybody what uses an E
signal when it ain't a real emergency."

Likewise, I bet there's *some* sort of faster transport around the
port, but again, it's likely reserved for "Doc" to use in emergencies,
and is probably a *very* old air raft or even some sort of aircraft.

Just because the place is "low TL" and higher TL stuff is expensivbe,
people *will* find a way to get high tech stuff that *works* for them.
Try finding a place on earth where there aren't transistor radios, for
instance. 

And as I've noted elsewhere, any planet that didn't *develop* a wired
comm net on its own will likely never have one. Once contacted, its
*much* cheaper to put up a low level satellite telephone net like the
ones just coming into service here on earth. The satellites are
*cheap*, and you need less than 100. The units the folks on the ground
use aren't that much different from a cell phone. For a low tech world
you'make the ground units tabletop-sized, so as to make swapping boards
easier, and likely use larger rechargable batteries and solar cells.

They'd still be less than 100 credits each. And even in a place where
that was a months wages, or even a *years* wages, you'd find them.
Villages go together to buy that sort of thing now. And the richer
farmers/landholders would want their own.

I think this is part of the fun of Traveller. Having the players learn
that "low tech" *doesn't* necessarily mean "stupid" *or* "ignorant". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:21:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relativistic Travel Times

In mail you write:

> I'm interested in the idea of a high-tech universe (or world) where
> FTL travel is either impossible or not yet discovered.  I did some
> looking into relativity and tried to derive travel time equations
> and ended up with differential equations which stumpted me.  Does
> anyone have the formulas for travel time given a fixed acceleration
> taking into account relativistic effects?  Does anyone know of a good
> book which deals with this?  How about a web page?

Check out the sci.space FAQ. They give the equations you are looking
for. They "merely" require hyperbolic functions.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:42:41 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: A question about grav compensations (Now GG Refueling)

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 1:21 AM
>Subject: Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)
>
>
>>On 02/17/98 at 04:54 PM,  "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> said:
>>
><Snipped>
>>>Once the tanks are full and busy refining the Hydrogen (and Deuterium,
>>>Helium, Nitrogen, etc.),
>>
>>Here's where there might be a problem. The full tanks contain a mixture of
>>elements,
[snip]

>This is the part that I'm very unsure of, and one of the reasons that I
>asked the original question. Concidering the refining time vs the scooping
>time as proposed in this technique is just too great,
[snip]

It is quite possible that the molecules being skimmed are in a more complex
form than straight Hydrogen (or Deuterium which is H(subscript)2.

I had a discussion in this forum about scooping water awhile back.  It
seems (according to the other person in the discussion) that one cubic
meter of water refines to much more than one cubic meter of Liquid
Hydrogen.  Now, don't ask me to argue for this position, I'm not a chemist
or physicist and don't play one on TV.  If this is true, however, you can
scoop your 40 tons of water (and presumably some other compounds) and
refine 50 tons of Liquid Hydrogen out of it.

I hope that person can come on nd explain better than I.

Pete



Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"K'kree!?!  I *hate* K'kree! Can't I have leftover Groat instead?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:13:55 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: For Dom/Bryan

Sorry for the public broadcast, folks, but our name server is claiming
that Dom's and Bryan's hosts don't exist. Any unemployed computer support
experts in Toronto take note: the new Toronto District School Board
desperately needs decent tech support. (I have no idea whether they will
pay for it, though.)


Re: including Infini-V demo on Traveller CD

Definately!!!

Do you have the latest version of the demo? The one with a US price of $26.

It should be available at my software site:
<www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html> If not let
me know (I can't check here at work - no time, and only PC machines :-( 
I'll check myself tonight.

The PC version won't be available in time for this CD - unless a miracle
happens. I'm looking at a mid-March release.


Bryan, also look at the Shadows deckplans on the same site. They are nice
and colourful, and cross-platform.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:42:47 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Re Merchant Prince Character Gen

>
>Wasn't fixed in my printing of MT. Got it from DGP errata IIRC. (or made it
>up)
>so long ago, I can't remember.
>
I looked in my copy of MT. It was copyright 1987. It didn't appear to be a
second printing. (At least it didn't say so). The text is correct.

Does anyone else have this problem in their MT: Player's Manual? Or was I
just lucky enough to get a revised book?

- -Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:17:05 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: The Death of "Fusion Plus"

>> At the very least let's (please, please please :-) can the "fusion+"
>> moniker for it and get a better name.
>IMTU, although they appear at TL12, ND technologies (Hadronics) don't
>reach maturity until TL13.
Where, dare I say, it became marketed as Fusion++ ?

(duck)
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:35:46 -0800
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re Merchant Prince Character Gen

> From:          "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Date:          Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:42:47 -0800
>
> I looked in my copy of MT. It was copyright 1987. It didn't appear to be a
> second printing. (At least it didn't say so). The text is correct.
> 
> Does anyone else have this problem in their MT: Player's Manual? Or was I
> just lucky enough to get a revised book?

   My copy of the MT:PM has the error (same as in Book 7), and I 
either noticed the problem or read some errata, because I crossed 
out (too many moons ago) one of the Steward results and written in 
Pilot on the Free Trader Business table.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:52:21 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: FFS2 spreadsheet version 2.1 available.

My ISP has straightened out my web site, so the newest version of the FF&S
spreadsheet is now available. This will be the last version I work on for a
while, unless a huge bug is discovered.

Features in this version:
  Simon Early added to the contributers list, for his excellent work on the
Excel macro code.
  EXCEL ONLY: Added the SaveDesign and LoadDesign macros, to save the ship
in a "lighter" text format, to conserve disk space. SaveDesign is called by
ctrl+s, LoadDesign is called by ctrl+l.
  Fixed external cargo pods mass and volume - volume was too high, mass was
too low.
  Fixed PA and Meson damage values based on FFS2 errata.
  Fixed backup fuel purification plants.
  Fixed fuel cost on economics page.
  Fixed Screen crew count - wasn't including damper turrets.
  Fixed crew totals - wasn't including screens.
  Fixed drive and magazine problems on missile sheet 2.
  Fixed atmospheric speeds.
  Changed hull pricing again (at Bruce Macintosh's request). Hull paint
credits are based on percentages, as beforebut the costs for military black
and ultrablack are back to the original method - based on hull area and a
fixed cost.
  Changed the TLSet macro code to be more efficient.
  Split code into Excel and Quattro Pro versions for macro support.

The code has been split into Excel and Quattro versions solely for the
macros - VBA isn't supported in Quattro. So why Quattro and not 1-2-3, or
Claris Works? Simple - Quattro is what I own and use. I've been publishing
this spreadsheet in Excel format becuase I figured it was the most common
product - but the sheet was written in Quattro and converted (and macros
added) at my box at my job, which has Excel.

Thus, there are no immediate plans for a 1-2-3 (or other product)
version...but if anyone converts the sheet to another version, let me know,
and I'll put your version up along with the Excel and Quattro versions.

As usual, the sheet is freely available at my traveller web site:

www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

Just go to the drydock page.

The spreadsheet will also be on the soon-to-be released Traveller CD
project - I just have to send the newest file and text description to the
gentleman burning the CD.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:03:48 -0600
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@simm.net>
Subject: e-mail address change

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD3D1D.ABBBCF00
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Webmaster,
I need to make arrangements to change my ISP.
Could someone please alert me as to how to get the
appropriate message to the appropriate person?
=20
Thanks=20
Pat Connaughton
=20
ps.    the new e-mail address is     pconnaught@fia.net
=20

- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD3D1D.ABBBCF00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Webmaster,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I need to make arrangements to =
change my=20
ISP.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Could someone please alert me as to =
how to get=20
the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>appropriate message to the =
appropriate=20
person?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Pat Connaughton</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>ps.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the new e-mail =
address=20
is&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:pconnaught@fia.net">pconnaught@fia.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD3D1D.ABBBCF00--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:24:57 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review

>The Mars Saga
>I thought it was neat when it came out on the old C-64. Went to the trouble
>of getting an emulator the other day just for nostalgia - now all I need is
>the blasted code wheel...

We have a winner.  Also used later in "Mines of Titan" for the PC.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:31:19 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eris saith

>Is this a "fact" ie written down somewhere. Stuff like this is great to
>collect and drop during lunch breaks. I'll give you one for free:
>The terms sabotage supposedly comes from french female weavers (is that a
>word, machine operators producing clothing fabrics). At some point the got
>irritated of low wages/working conditions and used their wooden shoes to
>damage the machines. These shoes are called "sabot" in french (yes the same
>root for the military sabot term). So they "sabotaged" the factory.

Really?  I had always thought that the name had the same root, but the action
was attributed to Dutch partisans in a factory during the Nazi occupation.
I've always wondered about the age of the term though...

There was an anarchist bookstore in my area called the Wooden Shoe, and they
had a poster on the wall explaining the story.  Then later, a friend of mine
watched a WWII documentary and relayed the ol', "you know where the term
sabotage came from?" line.  I'd always been interested to know how old the
term was, in case it predated the 1940s.

Semo  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:48:23 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: new question of the week

>You didn't know about the Gamma World CDrom we are getting together? 
>Are you on the Gamma World email list?

No I'm not, and I didn't know.  Is this the same one that was run by Thomas
Biskup (sp?) a few years back?

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:55:36 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

Anders Backman wrote:
 
> >        Guaranteed to start a fight with a coworker if I equate atheism (a
> >definite belief concerning Supreme Being(s), namely that they don't exist)
> >with religion ...
 
> ..or you could argue that atheists simply apply Occams razor to the problem...

Perhaps, but in doing so they fail to heed the wisdom of "Pascal's
Wager!" ;-p

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:09:13 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: A question about grav compensations (Now GG Refueling)

>I had a discussion in this forum about scooping water awhile back.  It
>seems (according to the other person in the discussion) that one cubic
>meter of water refines to much more than one cubic meter of Liquid
>Hydrogen.  Now, don't ask me to argue for this position, I'm not a chemist
>or physicist and don't play one on TV.  If this is true, however, you can
>scoop your 40 tons of water (and presumably some other compounds) and
>refine 50 tons of Liquid Hydrogen out of it.
>
>I hope that person can come on nd explain better than I.
>
>Pete

The density of liquid hydrogen is something like 0.07 ton/m3 while water is
1 ton per m3. This means that for every liter(kg) of water you'll get 0.07
kg of LH2 or double that of Deuterium.
The amount of hydrogen in water is 2 per 18 or slightly less than 10% which
means that for every ton of water youll get slightly less than 100 kg of
LH2 which occupies quite a bit more than 1 m3.
It may seem strange but it's a fact. A weirder thing though is that if
instead of empty fuel tanks you were to store your LH2 inside SOLID metal
you could pack more than 10x the amount!!! Yes, a solid block of titanium
can hold 10x more hydrogen than an empty container of the same dimensions.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:05:11 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Some stuff about my posts:

>OK, I'll put forth some criticism. Please note that I found your posts very
>interesting and the critique below is only there to tell you what I found
>qestionable from a standpoint of my Traveller universe.

Okay thanks, any constructive criticism is good criticism.

>Call the music pieces something other than "albums". The term seem very
>20th century earth centric and actually a bit oldfashioned in the 1990s as
>well. Call them cubes, song-group, fiche, file, block etc or something in
>Vilani. ALso I found the term "airplay" questionable on the same grounds.
>Use feedtime, hitcounts, use, loads or something.

Airplay I did think about before I put it in.  It was a tough choice, but I
finally settled on airtime just as a standard word that would get across the
point.  Album I didn't give a second choice for, although the term is now
archaic, it is still used commonly in the US to refer to...  um...  an album's
release, whether it be on CD or cassette, or even those minidiscs.

>"...something for every red-blooded Imperial male..."
>"But, you probably already know all of this, unless you've spent the past
>decade in a cave."
>Perhaps:
>"But, you probably already know all of this, unless you've spent the past
>decade in hyperspace/low passage."

Hey, there are still caves in the Traveller universe! :^)  But nonetheless,
your point still taken.  As it were, I used 20th century slang mostly because
I didn't want to pull a Clockwork Orange and make the slang too strange.  I
was going to use more 3I 'flavor slang', but I didn't want to have to go and
put a glossary at the end of the posting, besides, you know how hard it is to
come up with believable slang?  Multi-million dollar advertising firms try to
foist new slang on us all the time, but they rarely, if ever, succeed!  :^).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:06:38 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: SuperFreighters & Ship Sizes #2

In a message dated 2/19/98 3:08:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rboleyn@clear.net.nz writes:

<< I would give my left hemispher to get a copy of that book!
 >
 >-Dan
 Sorry I can't even flog the book for you - the only copy I ever saw was in
 our local library, and it went missing years ago. He also wrote a couple of
 books on submarine and modern warship design, I think. I never got to read
 tham, blast it. They would've been even more relevant to Traveller starship
 design, because both types of vessel are volume more than mass limited,
 unlike BB design.
  >>

Try the book " Battleships and Battlecruisers, 1905-1970"  It is a very well
written reference book on every class of BB or BC produced in that period
(includinig the final resting places of most!  :-)  )  The author escapes me
at the moment, but it should be available thru Military Book Club if nothing
else.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #193
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 194



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fifth Frontier War Starship Production System  (Long!!)
Re: Beginning Campaign
Re: Null development in key areas
Next Software Project
Re: Templars (was Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?)
Re: Next Software Project
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Starports: Potential FAQ Information
re: Eris saith
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #188
Re: Next Software Project
Re: Next Software Project
Re: Next Software Project
Re: CD-ROM\TML posts
Vargr Corsair Customs
Magazines in the Traveller Universe
Technician career & Tools [Long!]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:24:25 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier War Starship Production System  (Long!!)

>All right you guys.  Here it is.  My first real attempt at getting the TML
>to critique some of my work.  Just remember these factsIm over forty,
>overweight and balding and I still love the heck out of playing Traveller.
>So you just better be nice.  Constructive criticism is always appreciated.
>Flames will be looked at and then ignored.  Anyway,  here goes.

Okay, well, from someone who's just a couple years past twenty, I like it.  I
haven't had time to sit down with it and play with it yet, but this is one
that I'm going to "clip and save"!  Thanks.  Keep up the good work.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:50:07 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Beginning Campaign

At 03:20 AM 2/19/98 -0800, you wrote:

<snip>

>Now I'll admit it sounds absurd but imagine rolling up a character that
>becomes as legendary as the Stones, or Pink Floyd, etc. We just had to play
>them. Especially since we traded in two of the yachts for a lab ship which
>is the space-going tour bus / chemical factory / casino. The Traveller
>equivalent of the Grateful Dead.

I love it!  Snoop around until you find the issue of JTAS that has "Road
Show" by John Ford in it.  All sorts of fun thing sto do to a musical party.

Until then, read Pamela DeBarr's autobiography "I'm With The Band" for some
fun ideas on the trouble a touring group can have.  Also, rent "This is
Spinal Tap."

<snip>

>He had a hard time coming up with what to do with us so we've became
>basically self-styled emissaries and started the Rimward Tour to begin off
>the new Imperium.

A revolution starts while you are playing.  A crooked manager tries to
embezzle the receipts from a concert.  A Duke's daughter runs off to follow
you, and he blames you for it.  You mis-jump into a religious theocrasy
that has declared your music blasphmous.  All sorts of fun.

>Is this ludicrous? Anyone have ideas for him? Can you play aging rockers and
>survive?

If you are having fun playing, and the Referee is having fun running it, go
for it!  I know of no rule stating that Traveller games have to revolve
around mercenaries or merchants getting in gun battles every five minutes.

>Believe me its a lot of fun to say the least.

Sounds like it.



- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:31:21 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

> > Add to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry
> > Lee Lewis, but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good
> > stuff with him.
> Uhm...

Hm
> Jerry Lewis worked with *Dean* Martin. *Don* Martin is an artist for
> MAD magazine. :-)

My bad.  I meant Dean, but Don came out.  Although, I would not mind seeing
Don Martin & Jerry Lewis do a film sometime.

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:53:07 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Next Software Project

I emailed this to a few people, but no responses. I suspect the they may
not have received the message - parts of the Inetrnet are slowly becoming
inaccessible (hi Dom! hi Andy! hi Marc!).

I'm trying to decide on my next programming project.  Please cast your
votes for:

1) QSDS (Mac/PC) - as it says

2) Metator (Mac, PC a long way away) - system detailing and mapping

3) Cartos (Mac, PC a way away) - sector/empire mapping and generation

4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says


Marc: I emailed you this question, but got no response - just a message
that the message was delayed. Dom & Andy, your messages bounced.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:56:33 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Templars (was Re: How can a Destroyer devastate a planet?)

Peter Newman revealed:

>At this time I would like to apologize to the Traveller mailing list for
>introducing numerology (in the form of the Darmine faith) into our
>Traveller discussions.  Kenji seems to have taken to it _too_ well,
>possibly his writing about the Sayat is just a cover for his true
>Darmine beliefs.

Bah!  Unmasked so soon!  I suppose it was only a matter of time.  But
surely someone was bound to recognize the meta-alchemical dialectical
significance of disguising the green/blue hair of the Darmine as the red
skin of the Sayat.  I knew the secret was bound to leak out...

>Destroyer = 4 + 5 + 19 + 20 +18 +15 +25 + 5 + 18 = 129
>                1 + 2 + 9 = 12
>                1 + 2 = 3
>
>Which is not significant

Uh, hold on a second.  I think you're OBLIGED, at this point, to analyze
the significance of the rest of the Imperial Navy at this point.
Otherwise, how can we call this objective science?

>Templar = 20 + 5 + 13 + 16 + 12 + 1 + 18 = 85
>                8 + 5 = 13
>                1 + 3 + 4
>
>Which, obviously, is significant

Could you run Ine Givar and SolSec past the Telorans, too?

>Imperium = 9 + 13 + 16 + 15 + 5 + 18 + 9 + 21 + 13 = 103
>                1 + 0 + 3 = 4
>
>I believe we have uncovered true extent of the Templar sphere of
>influence.

<gasp>  It's true.  It's really true.  <faint>  <be carried away by
mysterious faceless "doctors" in sunglasses and gloves>


- --------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:56:21 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

In a message dated 98-02-19 13:55:35 EST, you write:

<< 4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says >>

this one has my vote....

richard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:51:56 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

> Does anybody have the name, class, and stats, and /or writeup for the ship shown in adverts for Traveller Navigator (e.g. Challenge 74,pg 12).

Jim Cooper

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 1998 15:02 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Starports: Potential FAQ Information

Oh, I have gobs of posts stored about starports, as well as a
handful of links I have glanced at that have information out
the wazoo about starports...

Here are some subjects that TMLrs have covered.
I'm sure there're more.

Technical Data
- --------------
MM's post on starports
Starport facilities			*
Starport floorplans
Starport sizes
Starport capacity			**
Spaceports vs starports
Number of starports per system

Economic Data
- -------------
Starport economics			**
Starport busy-ness			*
Office space in starports
Warehouse space in starports

Misc
- ----
Shipyard construction rules
Starport Authority Checklist


Asterisks mark points of vigorous interest on TML.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:17:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: re: Eris saith

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Anders Backman wrote:
 
> Is this a "fact" ie written down somewhere. Stuff like this is great to
> collect and drop during lunch breaks. I'll give you one for free:
> The terms sabotage supposedly comes from french female weavers (is that a
> word, machine operators producing clothing fabrics). At some point the got
> irritated of low wages/working conditions and used their wooden shoes to
> damage the machines. These shoes are called "sabot" in french (yes the same
> root for the military sabot term). So they "sabotaged" the factory.

Sort of, and this is an excellent example of how urban legends change.
Actually these 'saboteurs' date from even earlier in the Industrial
revolution. They were cottage weavers protesting against the
mechanization of their industry; the group and term 'Luddites' date from
this time as well, and are the English counterparts of the French
'Saboteurs'. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:22:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Add to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry
> > Lee Lewis, but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good
> > stuff with him.
> 
> Uhm...
> 
> Jerry Lewis worked with *Dean* Martin. *Don* Martin is an artist for
> MAD magazine. :-)

Yes, but Don Martian is the mild mannered green alter ego of Zorro,
Prince of Barsoomian Blades ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:23:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #188

> > Well skipping the physical stats I would say that the TML's UWP is
> > 
> > 	A ???270-Z

A 350270-Z

Size 3:  Low gravity, so people can jump to more conclusions.
Atm  5:  Low oxygen, to account for the dizziness and occasional
         irrationality
Hyd  0:  No water to pour on the flames.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:28:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

>4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says
>
>
>Marc: I emailed you this question, but got no response - just a message
>that the message was delayed. Dom & Andy, your messages bounced.

Number 4 I'd really like to buy - yes, buy. You should charge cash for your
shareware project, at least as much as 1 to 3 books from IG. If the payment
hassle bothers you take a look at Kagi shareware that handles shareware
payments via creditcard, seerialnumbers etc for you.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:33:33 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)

>votes for:
>
>1) QSDS (Mac/PC) - as it says
>2) Metator (Mac, PC a long way away) - system detailing and mapping
>3) Cartos (Mac, PC a way away) - sector/empire mapping and generation
>4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says
>

Any one of these would be great!

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:46:58 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

Here's my .2cr's worth in order of preference for a IBM platform

2,1,4,3

Thanks
Dave

- ----------
> Subject: Next Software Project
> 
> I'm trying to decide on my next programming project.  Please cast your
> votes for:
> 
> 1) QSDS (Mac/PC) - as it says
> 
> 2) Metator (Mac, PC a long way away) - system detailing and mapping
> 
> 3) Cartos (Mac, PC a way away) - sector/empire mapping and generation
> 
> 4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 20:47 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: CD-ROM\TML posts

In-Reply-To: <ccc4f67b.34eb4970@aol.com>

> I know no one's objected so far. But does anybody have objections to their
> TML mailings being on the CD-ROM?

I'm quite happy for mine to appear...er, except for the ones where I'm wrong 
or I sound like a total smeg head! -)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:44:01 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Vargr Corsair Customs

Customs

In a campaign a while ago, when characters were part of a privateer/corsair group.  There was a tradition of a beating being given to the first crewmenber aboard a new starship.  This was later by popular demand made to be the first crew member returning from shore leave or a mission.  The good thing about the Vargr is that
they can cringe and get away from the beating lightly, but at a loss of Charisma.

Does this custom start from a Traveller canon concept ?


Gangs

Does anyone have details of Vargr corsair gangs

In the same campaign there were a couple of strange groups of corsairs.

The most notorious was the Travolta gang, who had an amazing crew a virtually incredible starship and a very unstable commander.  The Vargr commander modeled himself on John Travolta from Grease, and had his hair done in a teddy boy style.  Sometimes they would just zing by a merchantman and subject them to a lot of music from various 50s and 60s groups, any comments on the choice of music however would be treated as a personal insult against the commander of the ship.  Needless to say, they were a menace to the space lanes and to many sane Naval Captains.


The other gang was a group of French Poodle Vargr in various primary colours who talked with a very strange French accent.  These might even resort to giving outrageous haircuts to captives, especially if they were
the typical stock of Vargr.



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:52:21 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Magazines in the Traveller Universe

The use of names and titles of periodicals and journals in a game tend to enhance the realism.  The following titles, are used by one of my characters whose hobby is hunting.

Hunters Quarterly
Pan Galactic Friends of Life news sheet
Travellers Journal
Traveller Digest 
Warrior Ways
War Tech & Tactics
Interstellar Arms Catelogue
Delgado Catelogue


Yep some of those titles are probably copyright - in present day.  

Any Additions or Comments


Cheers



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:04:59
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Technician career & Tools [Long!]

Engineers and other Technicians in Traveller
- --------------------------------------------

Since its first edition, Traveller character generation always favored
military and business careers. I agree that Trade is the blood of the
Empire, Army, Navy and Scouts could represent muscles and nerves,
Nobility is the brain, but what about the skeleton?

The Technician career represents the people who serve the Imperium in
roles requiring both high levels of technical competence and a certain
level of guts.
Despite the general lack of combat skills, I consider this career to be
eminently viable for PCs. Just like in the case of Agent and Artist, you
should remember that this "lifepath" could represent many different
things, depending on your EDU, homeworld TL and the final mix of skill.

You could also use this career for Army Engineering Corps (Sappers). In
this case, you should proceed as for the Army career (i.e. use Army
tables for commission, promotion, re-enlistment, injury, mustering out
and automatic skills) but use the Technician tables whenever you need to
roll for a skill gain. You will end with a PC which has Rifle-1 (and
perhaps SMG-1 if s/he is an officer), a military rank, army retirement
pay (if applicable), weapons and a load of technical skills.

The following are some suggestion for giving "flavor" to PC careers.
All offer some element of danger and exposure to different environments
and TLs and could form a good starting point for a Traveller character.
Remember that depending mostly on factors like EDU and SOC, this career
could represent both the high (top-salary consultants, architects) and
the low (stellar junk yard mechanic, belter) end of the scale.

- - Crisis Intervention Specialist (Fireman, Bomb Disposal squad, control
  of natural or man-made disasters like floods or car wrecks).
- - Hostile Environment WorkForce (Building, mining or salvage crews in
  deepspace, underwater or other hostile environments).
- - Prospecting, bootstrap Missions on low TL worlds.
- - Infrastructure (Building roads or other communication networks. Dams,
  space stations and other large scale projects).
- - Ecological damage assessment/reduction.
- - Technical consulting/workforce on archaeological sites.


The Technician career is presented in a format compatible with the
current edition of Traveller (T4), plus some additional notes and skills
derived from older editions of the Traveller system.

                            Technician

Troubleshooting is what keeps the Imperium alive. When troubles are
caused by sophonts, you usually call for Agents, or even the Army. In
all other cases, a Technician will probably serve you much better. From
the depth of space to the depth of oceans, from the Board of Directors
of a MegaCorporation to the seediest parts of the Starport, you should
always secure the advice of a veteran Tech before launching yourself in
a new adventure.
Routine tasks: Building, assessing or repairing devices, vehicles or
buildings. Acting as a consultant to governments or corporate
executives. Directing crew of workmen and coordinating large scale tasks
and projects.


Enlistment:  8- (Int 9+: +1, Edu 9+: +1, College or Graduate: +1)
Survival:     9- (Int 9+: +1)
Promotion     n/a
Position:     n/a
Continuation: 10-

1.Physical            4.Social
 1.+1 STR              1.Carousing
 2.+1 END              2.Streetwise
 3.+1 DEX              3.Instruction
 4.Brawling            4.Leadership
 5.Env.Combat          5.Administration
 6.+1 END              6.Fast Talk
 
2.Mental              5.Career
 1.Grav Craft          1._Technical_
 2.Survey              2.Demolition
 3._Technical_         3.Ground Cr.
 4.Computer            4._Technical_
 5._Spacecraft_        5.Robotics
 6.Mechanics           6.JoT

3.Educational         6.Background
 1._Technical_         1.Vacc Suit
 2.Communications      2.Perception
 3.Craftsman           3.Env.Combat.
 4._Aircraft_          4.First Aid
 5._Science_           5.WaterCraft
 6.Electronics         6.Camouflage


   Material    Cash

1  Equipment   2000
2  Middle Ps.  5000
3  Middle Ps. 10000
4  +1 Edu     10000
5  +1 Int     10000
6  Equipment  20000
7  High Psg   30000

(+1 on both if SOC B+)


Rank & Service Skills:
All: _Technical_ 1

Notes:
The _Equipment_ result represents the Tools of the Trade which your
technician will have accumulated during his/her career. 
The best way to treat this is to give the player 5000 cr. for each
Equipment result. The money can be used only to buy tools, protective
gear like VaccSuits (no military armor) and other reasonably portable
equipment (i.e., grav belts would be reasonable if a tad extreme, while a
submarine is not).
Multiple _Equipment_ results can be cumulated to buy a costly item,
but any residual "credit" after buying the stuff will be lost and
cannot be converted in regular money (but if they really want a Grav
Belt, you may allow them to pool the _Equipment_ results with normal
cash to reach the desired amount).

New Skills for Technicians.
- --------------------------
Engineering:Civil [Technical Cluster]
Represents the character expertise in designing, building and
maintaining large structures like houses, mining stations, bridges,
space habitats and other similar projects.
The skill my be used to operate specialized construction equipment,
(including cargo loaders) and as a favorable DM to Perception rolls
when inspecting blueprints, maps, geological data or the buildings
themselves.

Engineering:Combat [Technical Cluster]
Combat Engineering involves the rapid construction of field
fortifications, their camouflage, the assessment of their ability to
withstand enemy fire, mine placement and clearance and placement of
untended ground sensors. Main stat is usually EDU, but INT may be used
when dealing with new, unfamiliar situations or equipment.
Engineering:Combat skill levels may be used as positive DM to rolls when
trying to detect booby traps, mine fields and camouflaged installation,
either with visual inspection (Perception roll) or using specialized
technology (Sensors).
Use the skill level as negative DM when others try to detect the
character's emplacements.
This skill should be available to members of the Military
Forces only.


New Tools/Items for Technicians.
- --------------------------------

Sonic Knife [Adapted from Larry Niven's Ringworld RPG - Chaosium]
...........

TL: 14
LL: 9+
Cost: 300 cr.
To use: Easy Dex+Mechanics Task.

This device is similar to an slightly oversized pen, with a thin cable
connecting one of the extremities to a small power battery, usually worn
on the belt or strapped to a limb of the user.
The unit must be held pressed against the surface you want to cut. It
can be used in vacuum, under water or in exotic atmospheres and
generates an amazingly low heating effect in the cut material. It is
also fairly quiet, generating only an almost inaudible buzz.
The power pack weights 1 kg and allows 30 min. (360 rounds) of
continuous operation.
The knife can cut through most materials commonly used in the industry.
The cutting speed varies according the user's strength and the material
toughness, as shown in the table below.

Starting at TL14 you can easily obtain special plastics which, besides
being easily cut by the sonic knife, can be seamlessly weld together
using the same tool. They are available in various forms (panels,
cables, rug-like rolls, fabrics, boxes and assorted containers) and are
extensively used in different industries.

The tool acts as a sort of combination drill/saw/shears and works best
along previous welds and joints. Thanks to his shape, you can use a
ruler or any other straight object to guide the knife action. It's
mainly designed for precision work, lacking the power to cut stronger
stuff. It is less dangerous than a laser cutter, but it can be used to
cut trough doors, for example, so high law level worlds (especially low
TL ones) would prefer to restrict ownership of this devices.

The following values for material strengths are CSV-based. If you prefer
FF&S2 you will have to adjust numbers a little :

             
                   Thickness      Time
Material      TL    (cm)          (turns)
- --------      --   ---------      --------
Heavy Wood     1      1               1
                      8               2
                     28               3
Stone          1      0.12            2
                      1               4
                      3.5             6
Soft Steel     3      0.01            8
                      0.12           16
                      0.35           24
Hard Steel     5      0.01            8
                      0.03           16
                      0.12           24
Light Alloy    6      0.03            3
                      0.34            6
                      1               9
Fiber Laminate 6      0.12            1
                      1               2
                      3.5             3
Ligh Composite 7      0.01            7
                      0.03           14
                      0.12           21
Comp.Laminate  8      0.01            7
                      0.03           14
                      0.06           21
Crystaliron    A      0.03           30
StructureComp  B      0.03            1
                      0.34            2
                      1               3

Notes on the table:

Material and TL.
Name of the material and TL at which is introduced. For plastics use
either Wood or Stone.
Thickness.
For the various materials the three given thickness represent a Rigid
Armor value of 1, 2 and 3, except for Crystalliron, which has AV 3 at the
listed thickness.
The Sonic Knife can't be used with stronger stuff.
Time.
Time required to make a STR cm. cut in a slab of the given thickness,
given in 5-sec turns. For example, an A STR individual can cut 10 cm of
a .12 soft steel panel in 12 turns (1 minute).

Lighter objects (fabric, thin cables and any stuff with no appreciable
armor value) can be cut at 100xSTR cm/turn.

Players being players, they will try to use the sonic knife as a weapon.
The tool contains microsensors which cut off power when pressed against
something which it recognizes as flesh or other organic compounds (you
can use it to cut leather, for example, but not for beef).
Most models can be set to switch off when pressed against Vacc suits,
too.
Players being players, they will soon ask to deactivate the safety
circuits [Difficult Electronics+Int task. Failure will break the tool].
The vibrating effect is not really designed for soft, living tissue,
though. The sonic knife will damage tissues (resulting in bruising
first, then a bloody pulp) at a rate of 1D6/Round.


Memory Coils [Adapted from Larry Niven's Ringworld RPG - Chaosium]
............

TL: 14
LL:
Cost: Varies. See below for details.
To use: Average (Engineering, Mechanics or Demolition)+Int Task. The
        appropriate skill must be chosen according to the situation.

A broad family of specially constructed memory plastic bands, they can
act as ties, clamps, connectors and other similar applications.
Most coils are 1 cm. wide and packaged in flat, concentric loops. They
act as cheap throw away substitutes for heavy-duty pulleys, straps and
mechanical saws. All have a maximum expansion (see table below) and
contract to 1/100th of their length.
Memory coils can cut down trees, pull jail cell together, hoist
vehicles, crack walnuts, open cans hold gear to the hull of a vehicle,
act as an emergency tourniquet and much more.
The contraction is usually triggered by a chemical agent or a
pre-specified electrical current. The tightening effect takes 1 min x
meter of length. Any coil can be used only once, and must then be cut
away (Sonic Knifes are good for it, requiring no more than 1 round to do
so) or dissolved by a specially designed catalyst (cost: 10 Cr./dose).

ID      Max.       1-g   Max.       Tensile
Color  Extension   Lift  Force      Strength  Cost
         (m)       (kg)  (kg/sq cm)   (kg)    (cr.)

black     1        1000   1500       12500      8
grey      2        2000   1500       12500     24
red       4        2000    250       25000     38
Orange    8        4000    250       25000     50
yellow   16        8000     75       25000     60
green    32       12000     40       50000    100
blue     64       15000     40       60000    140
white   128        5000     25       75000    180

Memory coils weight 80 gr./m



Microfoil (Original idea and text by SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>)
.........

TL: 9+
LL: unrestricted
Cost: a standard "block" (30cm x 30cm x 100 sheets) will cost 2500 cr.
      (See below for additional notes on cost.)
To use: Average (Engineering, Mechanics or Demolition)+Dex Task. The
        appropriate skill must be chosen according to the situation.


Starship crews, surface teams, military and mercenary units, and those
in the civilian sector all have a need to join metals at one time or
another.  Tanks of fuel and oxygen require a good deal of volume and can
be quite heavy.

Microfoil is the solution to this problem.  Microfoil is made up of a
number of extremely thin layers consisting of boron, carbon, silica or
aluminum combined with a transition metal.  The different components are
selected carefully to ensure a self-propagating, high temperature
exothermic reaction when exposed to a small amount of heat (such as the
spark from a battery, or a match or lighter, for example).  The
temperature is high enough to melt a filler to make a weld.  The thinner
the layer, the less time the reaction takes, and the less time oxygen
has to mix with the metals, so the joints are stronger then those welded
with more traditional welding equipment.  The layers of foil are
generally between 20 atoms and 2,000 nanometers across.

The technology is introduced at TL9, but it is prohibitively expensive
due to the exacting specifications the foils must be made to.  At TL10,
the production process is refined, but still rather expensive.  By TL12,
microfoil can be made cheaply and easily.
Microfoil welding kits will vary in mass and price, due mostly to the
availability of the filler metals and the strength of the joints
required. Most members of a starship engineering crew, as well as combat
engineers and many mechanics will have thick pen-sized electrical
"sparkers" to perform on the spot welds when required.  The foils
themselves mass very little (the average packet weighs about as much as
a small notepad, and contains several hundred applications).

TL9     Cr2,000 per application.  (About 25-50% more for starship hull grade)
TL10    Cr500 per application.  (About 10-25% more for starship hull grade)
TL11    Cr25 per application.  (No extra change for starship hull grade)


Water Tools  [Adapted from Larry Niven's Ringworld RPG - Chaosium]
...........

TL: 14
LL: unrestricted
Cost: 
To use: Easy Mechanics+Int Task to correctly prepare a batch of tools.
Another application of memory plastics. A small (12 x 19 cm, 0.1 mm
thick, 5 gm) page of memory plastic is imprinted with the specifications
of the tool (an hammer, for example). By placing the page in a container
holding a specified quantity of distilled water, the molecules of the
page realign themselves and the water according to a specified design,
resulting in a complete, graspable tool.
The resulting piece will last 1 hour and then dissolve back in an
unrecoverable goo.
The life of the tool may be prolonged to 24 hours by applying a
pre-set electrical current to the object, and a special spray coating
will help stalling decay for a week. After this period, the object will
quickly dissolve.
Memory tools are usually produced in "books" of simple mechanical
devices, special containers and so on. The final mass of the tool is
equal to the mass of the ingredients minus 1%

Sample Memory Tools

Item                      Price
hammer (book of 10)        25 cr.
coveralls (adjust size     40 cr.
           by water
           measurement)
gloves (book of 100)       15 cr.
filter mask                50 cr.
wrench set (100 assorted)  35 cr.
rivets and expansion bands 25 cr. x 10
maintenance spray          60 cr. (10 applications)




Broomstick [from _2010 the second Odissey_ by A.C.Clark ]
..........

TL: 9
LL: unrestricted
Cost: Cr.100
To use: When used in the appropriate situation (see below) Zero-g,this
        tool gives a bonus to the relevant skill. The bonus is equal to
        user's skill or +3, whichever is lower. (i.e. if you have
        EnvCmbt[Zero-g] 1, the broomstick gives you an additional +1, if
        you have 4+ in EnvCmbt[Zero-g], it gives you no more than +3)

The broomstick (originally a Solomani designation, carrying obscure
cultural references) is a simple but amazingly versatile device used by
people which operate in Zero-g environments for protracted periods of
time. In cases where reaction-based (which need to be periodically
recharged) or gravitical modules (which are still too costly to issue to
a large workforce) would prove impractical, a simple broomstick will
often prove more than adequate.
The broomstick is usually carried around as a 1 meter stick with a metal
cable noodle at an end and a foothold (which can double as a hook or
handle) at the other.
The device can telescopically extend to five or six times the original
length by mechanical switches which trigger internal coils.
A broomstick is usually built to broadly fit its user's mass, and can be
used both to propel the user for short distances (by releasing the coil
after positioning one of the ends against a surface) and to stop
movement in zero-g (by positioning it against a surface an letting the
coil absorb the inertial movement of the user).
The relevant skill in T4 is Env.Combat[Zero-g], which represents the
ability of maneuvering in Zero-g. Older Traveller edition had specific
skills (like Zero-G combat) which can be used as well.
Vacc-Suit alone does not confer any proficiency with the broomstick.



__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #194
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 19 1998     Volume 1998 : Number 195



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Tarsus - Tarsun Communicator Directory
CD-ROM\TML posts
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Re: The Death of  "Fusion Plus"
Re: Next Software Project
Hydrogen Fuel Tankage 
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Re: Technician career & Tools [Long!]
Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe
Re: Technician career & Tools
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: Starports: Potential FAQ Information
Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Traveller Rocks (nowhere near c :-)
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe AND culture
Who are the Syleans?
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Fw: Majordomo results: Unsubscribe.
Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?
Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:01:33 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Tarsus - Tarsun Communicator Directory

 Tarsun Communicator Directory

  SUSAT - Has been allocated - the account is fully paid up
         
          Further information
          -------------------

          There is very little communication on this line.

          It is not owned by Susag
 
          It is suspected that the owner has ties with a 
          mercenary company on planet.

  
  MSMITH - Has been allocated - the account is fully paid up

           Further information
           -------------------

           There is quite a lot of communication on this line
           
           A large number of calls are placed during the Noble
           seasons.

           Some calls have been traced to a local mercenary company.
           
           


- -----
Does anyone else have names registered for Tarsun communicators ?     
          

Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:20:49 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: CD-ROM\TML posts

I have no objections, as long as the CD-ROM makes it clear that the
material shall not be reproduced for profit without the authors permission,
or something along those lines.

Please let me know when this is available; I'll certainly be buying a copy.
It sounds like you've done a very good job putting this whole thing
together.

Steven Charlton

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> I know no one's objected so far. But does anybody have objections to
their
> TML mailings being on the CD-ROM?
> I'm more than willing to post whatever copyright notices anybody wants
> on the material. And in fact have requested such when possible.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:30:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> No arguing that canon says 500,000 - 1,000,000 Td.  I'm just saying
> that we should design ships to match the art.  If we want big ships
> as the art indicates (IMO, the art shows ships with multikilometer
> dimensions, having seen most ship typoes in the world today).  My
> brother, who has flown past carriers at mach+, thinks they are actually
> small.

I know that we can design ships this large using the existing rules (if we
apply some fix to the surface area problem), but the question is, how well
do the existing combat systems scale to them?

Battle Rider provides a nice up-scale combat system, although it doesn't
scale down so well.  I don't recall if it scales up past a million tons.
I haven't seen a version of the T4 tech arch that scales up that far...
did they ever give the equations that were used to derive the USP factor
table?  (No, I don't have FFS2 yet, shame on me. :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:30:04 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: The Death of  "Fusion Plus"

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Another method is to assume that the development of mesonic
> > technology, an application of the growing electroweak force
> > engineering field (which leads to meson guns and meson screens at
> > TL's 11-12) allows more powerfulk containment field for a given
> > volume, or more powerful ignition lasers for inertial schemes.
> 
> Actually, now that you've jogged my memory, the mere act of
> "bombarding" hydrogen with low energy mesons (muons, as I recall)
> makes fusion possible at *very* low temperatures and pressures.
> 
> What happens is that negative muons replace the electrons in the atoms.
> But due to various quantum considerations, this reults in the muon's
> "orbit" being almost "inside" the nucleus!
> 
> That means that the atoms can come close enough for a greatly increased
> chance of fusion *without* the need for high temperatures (to ionize
> the atoms). You'd still want a fair amount of pressure as that pushes
> the atoms closer together.
> 
> Then only reason "muonic" fusion isn't being worked on is that it is
> very hard to produce the muons, and they decay too quickly to be of use.
> 
> But give a source of muons that can produce larger numbers of them at
> low energy costs, you've got your fusion technology.
> 
> Also, "muonic" atoms of heavier elements are likely to be part of the
> process of creating superdense. Given a "muon projector" you could
> "collapse" ordinary matter rather easily. It's *stabilizing* it that's
> a pain.
> 

Fascinating!  Perhaps this synergy of mesonics and nuclear damper
technology forms teh basis ofnot only higher TL fusion plants, but
allows the metastable states that comprise superdense materials
as well as bonded &coherent SD.  Hmm. 

Mesonics at TL11
Hadronics at TL12
Greatly enhanced fusion at TL13

Sounds like a clear technological progression to me.

Thanks Leonard!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:37:05 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

>In a message dated 98-02-19 13:55:35 EST, you write:
><< 4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says >>
>this one has my vote....

Andy Akins spreadsheet actually does FFS2 ship design very nicely - I would
say a mapping program might be more interesting.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:41:14 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage 

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >I had a discussion in this forum about scooping water awhile back.  It
> >seems (according to the other person in the discussion) that one cubic
> >meter of water refines to much more than one cubic meter of Liquid
> >Hydrogen.  Now, don't ask me to argue for this position, I'm not a chemist
> >or physicist and don't play one on TV.  If this is true, however, you can
> >scoop your 40 tons of water (and presumably some other compounds) and
> >refine 50 tons of Liquid Hydrogen out of it.
> >
> >I hope that person can come on nd explain better than I.
> >
> >Pete
> 
> The density of liquid hydrogen is something like 0.07 ton/m3 while water is
> 1 ton per m3. This means that for every liter(kg) of water you'll get 0.07
> kg of LH2 or double that of Deuterium.
> The amount of hydrogen in water is 2 per 18 or slightly less than 10% which
> means that for every ton of water youll get slightly less than 100 kg of
> LH2 which occupies quite a bit more than 1 m3.
> It may seem strange but it's a fact. A weirder thing though is that if
> instead of empty fuel tanks you were to store your LH2 inside SOLID metal
> you could pack more than 10x the amount!!! Yes, a solid block of titanium
> can hold 10x more hydrogen than an empty container of the same dimensions.
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se


Does anybody out there have stats on this?  What Anders is saying
is true, at least qualitatively.  I'm interested in investigating
this as a method of fuel storage, that is, inside the hull armor
matrix of the ship.  Fuel tanks would be soli instead of voids,
and could thus store 10 times as much furl, while enhamcing ship
integrity (given that the right materials were selected).  Does
anyone know the physical principles at work here?

Statement for attack:

	A J-6 ship requires 60% hull volume to tank its fuel.

	Application of this technology would allow a J-6 ship 
	to store its jump fuel in one tenth of that volume, i.e.
	6% of the hull.  Granted, 6% hull of titanium or similar
	hydrogen absorbing material would be massive, but could
	be constructed to enhance the ships structural integrity.

	Yes, I am aware of hydrogen embrittlement in certain materials.
	This is just a topic for thought and exploration.  BTW, there 	was an
article on thisin a recent DISCOVER magazine.

- -Dan
	
fuel in

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:14:52 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

Clark Crawford wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
> 
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > No arguing that canon says 500,000 - 1,000,000 Td.  I'm just saying
> > that we should design ships to match the art.  If we want big ships
> > as the art indicates (IMO, the art shows ships with multikilometer
> > dimensions, having seen most ship typoes in the world today).  My
> > brother, who has flown past carriers at mach+, thinks they are actually
> > small.
> 
> I know that we can design ships this large using the existing rules (if we
> apply some fix to the surface area problem), but the question is, how well
> do the existing combat systems scale to them?
> 
> Battle Rider provides a nice up-scale combat system, although it doesn't
> scale down so well.  I don't recall if it scales up past a million tons.
> I haven't seen a version of the T4 tech arch that scales up that far...
> did they ever give the equations that were used to derive the USP factor
> table?  (No, I don't have FFS2 yet, shame on me. :)


That surface area problem is a phantom.  Just calculate the real
surface area from solids that represent the ship.

By this I mean that you must select the compoenent solids from
which the ship is constrcted and carefully meantally piece them
together, calculating the resulting surface areas and volumes.

This is how I work.  Its tough, but without a CAD program, its
the only way.  And it works!

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:11:35 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Technician career & Tools [Long!]

At 10:04 PM 2/19/98, Paolo Marino wrote:
>Engineers and other Technicians in Traveller

Very fine work.  This just got added to the official documents for my game.

Most of the technicians also carry around large quantities of two other tools:

MagicSeal: a special substance that bonds to most materials, but not flesh
or a special fabric, and produces a bond as string as a good weld.  (Not
surprisingly, this is marketed under the name GreyTape, even though it is a
gel.)

Lamprey: a generic data sucker, designed to interface with all sorts of
equipment from simple cables, optics, and holo data channels.  It has a
fast, dedictaed computer programmed with darn near every protocal the
designers could find.  Using this, a tech can start to get useful
information on virtually any device, given time.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:30:21 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe

>Hunters Quarterly
>Pan Galactic Friends of Life news sheet
>Travellers Journal
>Traveller Digest 
>Warrior Ways
>War Tech & Tactics
>Interstellar Arms Catelogue
>Delgado Catelogue

Well, I'll add the ones that I've thrown into my campaign:

Magnum Magazine (Flashy music rag ala "Rolling Stone" or "Spin")
VidFanatic (The mag for the _serious_ vid fan, very slick, but has content)
Eternity Magazine (In the style and vein of "People", lots of noble watching)
Interstellar Trade & Commerce (serious business mag, lots of charts and
figures)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:36:56 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Technician career & Tools

>Engineers and other Technicians in Traveller
>--------------------------------------------
>
>Since its first edition, Traveller character generation always favored
>military and business careers. I agree that Trade is the blood of the
>Empire, Army, Navy and Scouts could represent muscles and nerves,
>Nobility is the brain, but what about the skeleton?

Wow.  An excellent posting.  Another one for me to clip and save!

Very nice work.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:59:58 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

Daniel Ray Lane wrote:

> > It may seem strange but it's a fact. A weirder thing though is that if
> > instead of empty fuel tanks you were to store your LH2 inside SOLID metal
> > you could pack more than 10x the amount!!! Yes, a solid block of titanium
> > can hold 10x more hydrogen than an empty container of the same dimensions.

> Does anybody out there have stats on this?  What Anders is saying
> is true, at least qualitatively.  

Sure, and with a couple or three technological breakthroughs would work
like a charm. The first problem is the rate of infusion into the solid,
right now that takes a *long* time. The second problem is the extraction
of the hydrogen from the soild, right now that's much too slow for any
of the Jump Drive theories that require the hydrogen in massive
quantites over a period of minutes. Third you have the effect of the
hydrogen on the soild, right now the best candidates get brittle pretty
quickly so you couldn't use them as structural support.

Another idea you might want to consider is storing the hydrogen as
slush.  This was proposed a few years ago for rocket design. You get
improved storage density and a *little* additional structural support
over storing the H2 as a liquid.  IIRC, the slush was "melted" by
cycling hydrogen through the nozzle walls to preheat it and back through
the storage tanks using some of the waste heat to liquify the hydrogen
slush.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:10:19 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starports: Potential FAQ Information

Why not zip up all this info and e-mail it to interested parties, or 
post on a web site somewhere

I'd love a copy!

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:09:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review

Bravo!  Bravo!  A brilliantly executed, well-balanced review, Mr. Fetus! 
S&E would be proud.


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:19:17 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

Anybody considered that Lhyd may actually be stored in a metastable
liquid/metallic state controlled by nuc dampers and gravitic compression
to reduce volume?  The tanks at high TL's would essentially be
damper/grav units.

How much would this gain us?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:15:33 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Traveller Rocks (nowhere near c :-)

traveller@mpgn.com,Internet writes:
>>Now I'll admit it sounds absurd but imagine rolling up a character that
>>becomes as legendary as the Stones, or Pink Floyd, etc. We just had to
>play
>>them. Especially since we traded in two of the yachts for a lab ship
>which
>>is the space-going tour bus / chemical factory / casino. The Traveller
>>equivalent of the Grateful Dead.

My second group of players decided to go the 'master criminal' route. They
formed a rock band to tour the Spinward Marches, cleverly disguising their
burglary gear as stage props. (We've just seen Thief. We were inspired.)
Other then what was needed to run the "Crime of the Century Tour" (we were
also into Supertramp) they donate the results to charity, on the
assumption that when they were eventually caught there would be a
groundswell of popular support.

Wild, crazy, and the most fun you can have in public. While the Band
serenades the Marquis with "Crime of the Century", the Ramp Rats steal his
jewels.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:20:55 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

> By this I mean that you must select the compoenent solids from
> which the ship is constrcted and carefully meantally piece them
> together, calculating the resulting surface areas and volumes.
> 

Don't be mean:)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:25:40 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

> Another idea you might want to consider is storing the hydrogen as
> slush.  This was proposed a few years ago for rocket design. You get
> improved storage density and a *little* additional structural support
> over storing the H2 as a liquid.  IIRC, the slush was "melted" by
> cycling hydrogen through the nozzle walls to preheat it and back through
> the storage tanks using some of the waste heat to liquify the hydrogen
> slush.
> 
> Eris


There I go not reading all before responding.  Sorry Eris.  Note to do
this we need to figure out how much pressure/grav/nuc damping we need to
do to compact this stuff.

Anybody know the properties LM Hyd can be created under, other than
Jupiter?  If only Jupitr, what is the pressure at the core.  IIRC
Jupiter is 3.0 g at the "surface," but that drops off as you get
deeper.  Pressure increases, though.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:25:52 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

Whoops, this mail was sitting in my mailbox and was well camoflauged against
the Vargr game of chance from Anders Backman, and the excellent list of films
by Rancke:

++Shadow said:
>Check history. In the 12800s new arrivals in places like India or other
>"frontier" areas would be grilled about the latest style back in the
>capital (Paris, London, Washington). And that was at a time when it may
>have taken 3 to 6 months to travel the distance.

I'll bet that the Spinward Marches is filled with all kinds of fashion don'ts
then :^)

Imagine the horrified look that a trendy Core noble would have as he ventured
to the Spinward Marches on business and saw all of the out-of-date fashions...

Then imagine the horrified looks on all of his friend's faces when he got back
home.

As I think of this I am reminded of the line in Tombstone (concerning the town
itself):  "...where the latest Parish fashions are sold from the backs of
wagons."

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:27:24 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:

> your point still taken.  As it were, I used 20th century slang mostly because
> I didn't want to pull a Clockwork Orange and make the slang too strange.  I
> was going to use more 3I 'flavor slang', but I didn't want to have to go and
> put a glossary at the end of the posting, besides, you know how hard it is to

One of my favorite novels is Queen of Angels by Greg Bear. Partially 
this was precisely because the reader is dropped right into the 
center of the story, complete with the 'modern' slang/slant. It took 
me a chapter or two to get the rhythm of it and stop struggling to 
understand. Mind you, for me this was challenging and exciting and 
lent flavor to the work. YMMV.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:08 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe AND culture

>I think there is an "Imperial Culture" also, but the various worlds are
>just plain anarchy. Every thing is there because the tech level varies
>from drums to grav focussed e/m psedoholos.

The way I see it sort of is that each individual world is going to have its
own culture and its own feel.  The problem with that, for me at least, is when
I run my campaign, I run it from week to week, and its difficult to tell where
the PCs might stop, let alone where they'll stay for a long time.  I can (and
do) put different goals in adventures on different planets, and it generally
keeps them to a straight line, but it is very difficult to come up with
interesting stuff each week for each world.  There are only so many different
customs and leaders and mainworlds you can deal with from week to week...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 01:26:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Who are the Syleans?

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:03:28 Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> Wrote...
>I'm a tad disappointed by M:0's decision to "back-burner" the Syleans as a
>miniscule and primitive culture now all-but-assimilated by Vilani and
>Solomani immigrants: it seems to me a lazy decision (though well in
>keeping with IG's rush-it-out-the-doors philosophy) that missed some
>exciting opportunities, and which doesn't fit well with the admittedly
>limited evidence (the regard for the race shown by the AHL series, Lucan's
>eventual insistence on High Sylean, etc.).  Anybody have some heretical-
>canon ideas on who the Syleans are?
    Well...  IMTU I see the Syleans having been reduced to something like the
American Indians were by the mid-Twentieth Century by the Vilani.  Stubbornly
clinging to the fragments of their culture and language and having been
shuffled off onto near worthless territories and persecuted for not
assimilating themselves into Vilani society.  Then when the Terrans show up
they revolt!
    Since there was only ONE Terran on Sylea at the time, Lt. Johnathan
Winterhawke, he negotiated a settlement which gave the Syleans ever increasing
autonomy and made them allies to the increasing Solomani presence into the Rule
of Man.  By the time of the Long Night the distinct and seperate minority
Sylean culture was allied to the Solomani on Sylea and they both controlled the
world in the face of the Vilani majority.
    In Mileau 0 the Syleans maintain a distinct culture on their homeworld
which is rather much admired by the native nobility.  IMTU Cleon actually has
made Imperial Decrees setting aside territory and priviledges for the native
Syleans.  OC IMTU Cleon has a favorite Grandmother who was full blooded Sylean
and the Syleans have a tradition of being safe servants to the Nobility and
Imperial Palace.  But that's my take on them, more as a footnote then anything
else.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:50:47 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

>Terra
>Have you considered that we (Terrans c. 1998) are studying/enjoying music
>that is as old as the recording systems we have designed to preserve it?  We
>have "music" that is over 2600 years old, that I know of.

Yes, this is something that I have thought of.  But, its tough to implement.
My own bet would be that most revivals that would take place would be more or
less Vilani in nature, since they are the most numerous of the starfaring
human races.

Its easy for the Terrans to come along and say, "Now you have to speak our
language", but traditions and entertainments tend to stick around even
further.

>Even through the dark ages/middle ages/medieval period, we as a culture
>managed to hold on to the music and drama of previous eras.  (Yes the
>Byzantines helped.)  So, I would be surprised if revivals of various forms
>and periods were uncommon.  Perhaps the highest form of music or drama in M0
>would be what we call classical.

That's a good point.  But of course, when you have such a melting pot of races
and cultures floating around, the highest form of drama could be something
that was never even popular here...

>In _Morning Star_ (or was the _Evening Star_), they had a reproduction of
>"The Globe Theatre" which put on the works of William Shakespeare.  I should
>think that type of thing would be quite common.  Who knows what periods
>between now and then would also be revived.

Yes.  Its difficult to postulate what will happen between now and the far
future.  There's a lot of time and different cultures that are in that span.
Technology is easy.  Its tough to try and imagine the entertainment of the far
future.  Its tough enough to imagine the entertainment of the near future...

Who would have thought that a relatively unknown Austrian body-builder would
become an actor and sear "I'll be back!" in the American consciousness?

Who could have predicted the Tamagotchi/Virtual Pet explosion in Japan and the
U.S.?

Who could have predicted any one of the many hyper-bizarre Japanese game
shows?

Who would have predicted that designer blue jeans would be so damn popular in
Soviet bloc countries?

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:04:02 -0600
From: "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
Subject: Fw: Majordomo results: Unsubscribe.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard A. Flores <cybernot@gte.net>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 8:03 PM
Subject: Fw: Majordomo results: Unsubscribe.


>Ok, for all of you who have been giving those who want get out a hard time,
>This is what I got while attempting to unsubscribe one of the complaintants.
>
>The last time I tried to do a GET, I was told that I was not a member, even
>though I keep getting posts.  To those trying to get off, hang on.  There
>seems to something wrong with the robot (majordomo) that runs the list.
>
>>>>>> unsubscribe traveller kherrend@stlgate.byu.edu
>>**** unsubscribe: 'kherrend@stlgate.byu.edu' is not a member of list
>'traveller'.
>>**** contact "traveller-approval@lists.MPGN.COM" if you need help.
>>>>>> end
>>END OF COMMANDS
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:54:17 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

At 11:24 am 2/19/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>I don't think the starport capacity is over-discussed.  Admittedly,
>>I've only been on the TML for 12 months, but I only recall two starport
>>threads.
>>
>>One was about number of berths.
>>
>>The other is the current one about trading levels.
>>
>>Maybe when we get the TML CD we can use the yet-to-be-designed indexing
>>tool to search for all those old discussion threads.
>>
>>Simon
>
>Jeff Zeitlin calculated the number of berths sometime back (he noted in
>passing that the White Dwarf starport-photocopy-and-die article fit his
>numbers very well). Is the article on the web or could Mr Zeitlin plesase
>e-mail me it as I'm really interested.

	Also note there's a couple of spreadsheets on my website that calculate
all kinds of info for starports. I've always meant to go through them and
back out the rules ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:30:41 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: VS: Traveller-digest V1998 #155

At 12:19 am 2/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> So You are saying that when US next time bombs Iraq they can (and should
be 
>> allowed)  defend their country by destroying whole New York or some
other 
>> big city in USA with bioweapons.
>
>Sure, they can do as they wish. We would turn their country to
>glass, but they're welcome to give it a go.
>
>Frankly, we shouldn't bomb Iraq. We should let them know that they
>are targeted with nukes, and that if they *use* CBN weapons on
>anybody (even in Iraq) it will be treated as a CBN attack on us, and
>they'll get nuked.

	Nah. Just tell them every suspected weapons site WILL be inspected. Let
them choose between a human inspector and a Tomahawk inspector ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #195
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 20 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 196



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: Copyright/Porperty rights
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?
Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: MT Errata
Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:
Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review
Re: Technician career & Tools (Society)
Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names
Electronic Dolls
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: Former Traveller publishers
Re: jump vs stutterwarp
Re: Next Software Project
Re: Technician career & Tools
Re: Null development in key areas
T4 Sales Increase!
IM equipment/doctrine
Re: jump vs stutterwarp
Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe
Re: Eris saith
Re: Null development in key areas
Macro-economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:53:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

At 10:55 am 2/19/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>        Guaranteed to start a fight with a coworker if I equate atheism
(a
>>definite belief concerning Supreme Being(s), namely that they don't
exist)
>>with religion ...
>>
>>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>
>..or you could argue that atheists simply apply Occams razor to the
problem...

	Nope. Occam's razor would lead me to believe that you can't prove either
way, and hence become an agnostic ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:45:02 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright/Porperty rights

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:43 pm 2/18/98 EST, you wrote:
>	[[What I actually had in mind, though, was that this product reproduces and
>disseminates material without permission of the authors involved.  Which,
>based on my hazy knowledge of intellectual property law, or at least commonly
>accepted citation practice, is questionable. ]] The problem here is I don't
>have a way to contact all 500+ current and former TML/Xboat members for
>permission (if you can come up with a reasonable way to do it though.....). In
>some cases I already have their permission. The best I can do is state that
>copyright remains in the hands of the poster of the material (and Far Future
>Enterprises). I do have permission for over half the material on the disk.

	FWIW, just to relieve any remaining conscience pangs, I hereby explicitly
grant permission for not-for-profit reproduction of any miscellaneous
spewings
I may have committed to this mailing list ....
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

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- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:27:50 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

At 08:06 pm 2/17/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Glatz wrote:
>
>> I suppose this makes me an accomplice to unsubscription?  Is that an Imperial
>>crime, or does it fall under planetary jurisdiction?
>
>Imperial.  The IN loads them onto small, fast, maneuverable fighters armed
>with ship-killer missiles and dumps 'em off to face prosecution for
>thoughtlessness crimes back on the list.
>
>Anyone care to propose a virtual UWP for the TML?  Amber Zone, probably.
>Tons o' military bases and research stations.  Gas giants, goes with out
>saying.  Insidious atmosphere.  Government type, anyone?

	Oh, I think anarchy is pretty descriptive. Or perhaps some form of
oligarchy, with the "old-heads" dominating by dint of their brutal flaming
of any question.

	No wait! Given the number of gearheads out there, it's OBVIOUSLY a Feudal
Technocracy!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:52:01 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?

At 01:18 am 2/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>> Legate said:
>> >And your point being?  As everyone in the English Speaking World knows
>the
>> >French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video. 
>Add
>> >to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis 
>> I am shocked...shocked, do you hear...to diascver that this base canard
>is
>> still circulating in an educated venue such as the TML. 
>
>Where is that damn duck? ;<)
>
>Please be as shocked as you want.  I also say that the next time a few AF
>planes are flying over France a few bombs should "accidently" be released.

>This of course is my theory & I'm sticking to it.

	Ya know, those damn Tomahawk cruise missiles can be mighty inaccurate ...
and it ain't that far from downtown Bagdad to the base of the Eifel tower
(which  was only supposed to be temporary anyway) ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:29:38 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Someone PLEASE HELP me UNSUBSCRIBE

At 07:24 pm 2/18/98 +1300, you wrote:
>At 06:53 PM 17/02/98 -0700, David Golden wrote:
>>At 04:59 pm 2/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>messages I received.  It truly worries me that these people may have
>>access
>>>to bell towers and firearms, or worse yet, members of the opposite sex
>>>willing to breed with them.  This group represents the single most
>>
>>	REALLY????? Where can I find such a member of the opposite sex? I like
>>them tall, well educated, intelligent, non-anorexic figure, and
preferably
>>not too ditzy. I'm single, employed, somewhat old-fashioned and liberal
>>simultaneously, quite undernourished, and have a slightly off-the-wall
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
>>sense of humor ...
>>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>
>Is this a poorly veiled appeal for somebody who can cook?

	Oh, I can cook quite well myself, thank you ... but I just don't see the
point in wasting the time on just myself. That and the effort involved at
the end of the day ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:32:33 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

At 07:02 pm 2/18/98 +1300, you wrote:
>The version I heard was that the Air Force decided they wern't going to
>replace the old A-10s, and the Army sid that if the Air Force wouldn'd
>provide the support they needed (i.e. the A-10s), then they'd do it
>themselves. In order to prevent a precedent being set the Air Force then
>decided that they would keep the A-10s in service after all.

	The Air Force promised it would provide the same support with F16s, and
trotted out statistics showing that, on the range, an F16 at 300kts had the
same accuracy as an A10 at 300kts.  What they ignored was the fact that as
soon as somebody started shooting at said F16 pilot (lacking the titanium
crew compartment of the A10), he'd crank it up to about 600kts, and
accuracy would go all to hell....
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:45:30 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MT Errata

At 01:58 pm 2/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>> That's what I did. I allowed the "military" careers to have access to
>>> "combat rifleman" through "gun combat" cascade. I agree the "general public"
>>> shouldn't have access to "combat rifleman".
>>
>>But it's their Constitutional Right, Goddamnit! :-)
>>
>Imperial Constitution or US constitution?  :)

	What's the difference?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:10:28 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:

>One of my favorite novels is Queen of Angels by Greg Bear. Partially 
>this was precisely because the reader is dropped right into the 
>center of the story, complete with the 'modern' slang/slant. It took 
>me a chapter or two to get the rhythm of it and stop struggling to 
>understand. Mind you, for me this was challenging and exciting and 
>lent flavor to the work. YMMV.

Okay.  Point well taken.  Then, in future postings of this type, I will go
hog-wild with the future slang...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:11:56 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Tom Jetland:  High Passage" A Traveller Movie Review

>Bravo!  Bravo!  A brilliantly executed, well-balanced review, Mr. Fetus! 
>S&E would be proud.

Thank you, thank you very much...

For my next trick...  Well, no, let's enjoy the suspense.  ;^)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:13:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Technician career & Tools (Society)

Excellent stuff.  Clipped and saved.  Thank you very much.  I have a
suggestion.

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Paolo Marino wrote:

>    Material    Cash
> 
> 1  Equipment   2000
> 2  Middle Ps.  5000
> 3  Middle Ps. 10000
> 4  +1 Edu     10000
> 5  +1 Int     10000
> 6  Equipment  20000
> 7  High Psg   30000
> 
> (+1 on both if SOC B+)

Certification:  the easy way to deal with it is to say that any character
who reaches a certain skill level is certified.  If the Imperium has a
professional society that confers significant benefits (on a magnitude
like the TAS) then membership might be more exclusive and difficult to
obtain (like the TAS).  High skill level be a prerequisite to this.  I
make this suggestion because the table lacks benefits approaching the
value of starship ownership and TAS membership.

Benefits might include easy access to Society resources, including massive
volumes of technical data that is restricted from general distribution,
perhaps through the AAB or the Society's own branch libraries.  Better
access to University personnel and resources than the general public.  An
easier time getting military clearance for technical areas (already know
it all anyway, and you're obviously vested).  Easier access to Ancient
sites, maybe (can't forget that one!).  A generally easier time getting
published in Society publications, which probably comprise the majority of
all academic technical publications in the Imperium.  Ability to sponsor a
non-member.

Any ideas on a name for this Society?  Kind of like a modern engineering
society with a much larger mandate, teeth, and a dose of elitism.

Any other ideas for Society benefits?  No hostels.  It should cost a lot
and suffer from the blackball problem, too.  Maybe gives a bonus against
the TAS blackball (and vice versa). 

Other ideas?

Thanks again for the new career, Paolo!


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:34:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller Ship Sizes, Names

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:

> > By this I mean that you must select the compoenent solids from
> > which the ship is constrcted and carefully meantally piece them
> > together, calculating the resulting surface areas and volumes.
> 
> Don't be mean:)

Naw, no reason to really model the hull unless I want an accurate visual
image of it.  The net effect of modeling the hull is to increase surface
area without changing the interior volume, which I can do to any extent I
like simply by adding material (a scalar quantity) to the hull on my
spreadsheet.  The scalar results are identical (all formulas in FFS are
based on scalars, IIRC) to the scalar results of modeling.  It's just that
linear relationship between volume and surface area requirements that does
it in.  Since surface area is logarithmic, the surface area requirements
for various components should be logarithmic, too, even if modern science
says not.  Else we can't even build a 500kdt battleship; and forget about
the Sylea or stuff from movies.

(Honestly, I'm still using MT.)

There just seems to be some disagreement on the list over this.  I think I
said this all before, though.  Got ignored.  Oh well.  Such is the life of
a lurker.  :)


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:15:34 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Electronic Dolls

I got interested enough by the toys discussion to check out the OtakuWorld
site. Not bad, and some of my kids are interested. But does anyone have
the Macintosh version of the viewer program? The link given in the site no
longer functions (at least from my admittedly fornicated system).

The site was <www.otakuworld.com/kiss>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:36:50 -0500
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
> 
> > > It may seem strange but it's a fact. A weirder thing though is that if
> > > instead of empty fuel tanks you were to store your LH2 inside SOLID metal
> > > you could pack more than 10x the amount!!! Yes, a solid block of titanium
> > > can hold 10x more hydrogen than an empty container of the same dimensions.
> 
> > Does anybody out there have stats on this?  What Anders is saying
> > is true, at least qualitatively.
> 
> Sure, and with a couple or three technological breakthroughs would work
> like a charm. The first problem is the rate of infusion into the solid,
> right now that takes a *long* time. The second problem is the extraction
> of the hydrogen from the soild, right now that's much too slow for any
> of the Jump Drive theories that require the hydrogen in massive
> quantites over a period of minutes. Third you have the effect of the
> hydrogen on the soild, right now the best candidates get brittle pretty
> quickly so you couldn't use them as structural support.
> 
> Another idea you might want to consider is storing the hydrogen as
> slush.  This was proposed a few years ago for rocket design. You get
> improved storage density and a *little* additional structural support
> over storing the H2 as a liquid.  IIRC, the slush was "melted" by
> cycling hydrogen through the nozzle walls to preheat it and back through
> the storage tanks using some of the waste heat to liquify the hydrogen
> slush.
> 
> Eris

Yep, it was for NASP, on which I had a friend working.  It failed and
is now a dead project.  That technology doesn't yet exist (meaning
engines, slushtech, aeroframe, etc...)  Its at least a TL away from
us.

How about carbon tube storage (ref:  DISCOVER, Jan 1998)

- -Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:36:02 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Former Traveller publishers

In a message dated 98-02-19 04:22:59 EST, you write:

<< > Paranoia Press [Chuck Kallenbach, anyone know here he disappeared to] >>

Chuck works for Decipher now.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:39:13 EST
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: jump vs stutterwarp

I have a philosopical question.

what if a race develops stutterwarp instead of Jump drives? whould they be
considered a minor race? 

richard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:42:15 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) asks:

>I'm trying to decide on my next programming project.  Please cast your
>votes for:
>
>1) QSDS (Mac/PC) - as it says
>
>2) Metator (Mac, PC a long way away) - system detailing and mapping
>
>3) Cartos (Mac, PC a way away) - sector/empire mapping and generation
>
>4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says

I'm sure you can guess how I'm voting. Rob, Metator is bloody great even as
it stands - if only I could save all the outputs to text files, at present
implemented only for the System Data. Without this ability, I can't really
use it - not the way I'd like to, anyway.

Please please please *PLEASE* finish Metator before anything else. I'd
happily send you a shareware fee, but as it stands the program is in
almost-but-not-quite useful form.

Ever hopeful,

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
        "...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun:
      the raw, heady essence of interstellar civilization."
                        --Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:42:21 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Technician career & Tools

Re: Technician career & Tools

Paolo,

One of the best and most useful posts to this list in a long time.
Excellent work!

Many thanks,

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
        "...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun:
      the raw, heady essence of interstellar civilization."
                        --Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 03:46:55 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:19:05 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Add to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry
> > Lee Lewis, but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good
> > stuff with him.
> 
> Uhm...
> 
> Jerry Lewis worked with *Dean* Martin. *Don* Martin is an artist for
> MAD magazine. :-)

It frightens me that Leonard knows this...



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:32:55 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: T4 Sales Increase!

This is the best news I've heard about Traveller in a long time.

I'm in one of my local game stores the other day, and I notice that 
they are not carrying much in the way of T4 stuff.

I haven't played my campaign in a while (having putting it on hold 
for my film), so I haven't been to the game store since last October. 
 It's been a good while, and I just wanted to get a taste of what's 
come out since then.

So, I see that the T4 stuff is pretty thin, and I'm thinking, "Well, 
just like when I left it, T4 sales are pretty slow.  The game store 
is not stocking T4 items."

But (and this is a big BUT), I talk with the store clerk before I 
leave, and I ask him about Traveller.

How's it doing?

"Well,"  he says, "it's one of our most rapidily growing games.  It's 
really picking up, and the reason we don't have any right now is 
because we've sold most of it.  We've got some more coming in next 
week."

Damn!

Did you hear that?

I think that's great.  It's the first time since T4 has come out that 
I've received a good report on the game from a game store clerk.

I guess it just needed some time to catch on...

I'm really looking forward to seeing Marc's T4.1.  That will probably 
be the thing that breaks down all the barriers and gets me back into 
my campaign again.

(Actually, I'm going to get my script written first, then I plan on 
picking up my campaign--but, I'd like to pick up with Marc's new 
rules.)

I haven't posted to the TML in who knows how long, but upon receiving 
this news from my local store, I just had to report to the list.

It's exciting.

I'm glad.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:06:34 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: IM equipment/doctrine

  I was recently flipping through a rather overpriced copy of the
Regency Vehicle Sourcebook (?), and got the strong impression that
Imperial Marines were (in TNE, at least) always equipped to the
best standard, that being 14 or 15 by the Rebellion.

  That all makes sense and is probably an extension of Striker II
material, but while pawing through the Invasion: Earth counter mix
I ran across a bunch of TL 12 and 13 Marines. I know that projects
about Marine history and TO&E's are out there, and I was wondering
if any ideas had been formed about how this fit IM or IN doctrine,
or what had changed since 1002.

  As all other units seem to be limited to TL 14, presumably all
~max. TL Marines were serving with fleet elements continuing the
offensive beyond Sol system. So it would appear that at least
until then that the IM had independent Marine regiments (from the
counters) of lower (12/13) TL for occupation or follow-up duties.

  This assumes that the white Imperial counters with a star for ID
type are Marines... my copy of FFW went AWOl long ago.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:38:46 -0600
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: jump vs stutterwarp

RSpake2064@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a philosopical question.
> 
> what if a race develops stutterwarp instead of Jump drives? whould they be
> considered a minor race?
> 
> richard


Yes.  Just like the Aslan are.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:19:23 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe

At 05:43 PM 2/19/98 -0500, Dom wrote:
<Snipped altogether!>...

Good reading list!  

Let us not forget the Galactic Geographic!  More than one expedition has
been launched to study an arcane system or peculiar species at their
behest...  




Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 23:58:55 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Eris saith

On 02/18/98 at 12:06 PM,  Sethkimmel@aol.com said:

>OH....PLEASE....I will NOT believe that Civil War tall tale without
>documentation. No offense to the person that posted it is intended.

Seeing as my name's on it, I better comment. ;->

I firmly believe in the possibility of the tale! Not that the slug
inpregnated the woman..the lead slug anyway.., but I certainly *do* believe
somebody could have made that claim and tried to make it stick.  I mean if
a turkey baster works...;-p

OB Traveller, I suppose this relates to the rumors about the
self-inpregnating Sayat that the Solimani keep spreading around. ;->


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 00:03:25 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

On 02/18/98 at 09:44 AM,  "Legate" <legate@futureone.com> said:

>> >As everyone in the English Speaking World knows the
>> >French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video.
>> We *know* McDonalds survived (just became renamed 'Starport Bar (tm)') as
>> Famille Spofulam gave us the information.

>Well, if we do not protect McDonalds now, then how can it evolve into the
>starport bar of the far future?

I don't think you have to worry about Mickey-D's. It'll take more than the
French to knock them off.

As an aside, we've coined a nice little Travellerism in the PBEM I'm
running. Everybody drops by the bar to drink a cool beersii.  Craig, claims
it was a typo, but I think it was his latent Vilani heritage peeking out.
;->


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:32:58 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Macro-economics

>One of the things we don't do well in Traveller economic rules is handle
>the curves. Supply, demand, cost, etc are all curves, not generally
>straight lines, and have you ever heard a Traveller player/gm/poster
>talk about elasticity? ;->

  Not in those words, as such, but I'm sure that a bunch of people
on the list are familiar with them. The problem is similar to the
occasional burst of Army-ese "death by acronym", or science-speak,
or, well, German, for example.

  Besides, the Trav universe is scary enough just thinking of all
the different models of TL 6 firearms out there somewhere, without
worrying about the genuine accuracy of the economic models. Self-
consistency takes enough work as it is.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #196
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 20 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 197



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dresden
Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)
Re: Eris saith
Re: Starport Economics
Re: CD-ROM\TML posts
Re: jump vs stutterwarp
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Re: jump vs stutterwarp
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: T4 Sales Increase!
Discarding Sabot Rounds
Re: jump vs stutterwarp
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #196
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: Starports: Potential FAQ Information
Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:
Semo's recent posts
Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?
Re: Discarding Sabot Rounds
Re: Macroeconomics
Re: new question of the week
Re: Eris saith
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Fw: Majordomo results: Unsubscribe.
Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:33:03 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Dresden

Hello,
>The firebombing of Dresden (which I think only involved RAF aircraft) 
>was done *at the request of* the Soviets (the fleeing civilians would 
>cause chaos behind German lines, making the Soviet advance easier).

  I'm pretty sure that the USAAF was involved too. As far as being at
the Sov request (quite aside from their East German satellite later
making a great deal of noise about the inhumanity of it all), I would
like to see a source for that, as the Americans at least would've been
really disinterested in co-operating after the appalling lack of Soviet
help with respect to the Warsaw Rising. Forgetting the Poles, US aviators
were running greater risks because of Soviet refusal to materially aid
bombing runs.

  ObTrav - the Imperium probably never seriously considered punitive
attacks on Terran civ targets in 1001-2. Was this due to the political
objectives they had in mind, or because the 3I didn't really have the
culturally Vilani mind-set wrt warfare that DGP attributed.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 00:28:07 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: A question about grav compensations (GG Refueling)

On 02/18/98 at 05:53 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
said:

>This is the part that I'm very unsure of, and one of the reasons that I
>asked the original question. Concidering the refining time vs the scooping
>time as proposed in this technique is just too great, 6, 8 12 hours to
>refine and purify the fuel means, filling the tanks, waiting that long
>then refilling the tanks, etc. Also, unless you have 2 or more tanks, one
>for the unrefined fuel "in front" of the refining equipment, and one
>after, you will probably have to run the fuel you refined previously
>through again.

Well, if you're doing high speed runs through a GG atmosphere you'd want to
have a tank to process the unrefined stuff you're taking in before pumping
it into the fuel tanks. OTOH, I'd prefer a less violent form of
refueling...;->

>I pictured a less violent form of refueling, dependant on CG. 

You too, huh? ;->

>...the ship enters atmoshere and trolls for fuel at a rate equal to it's
>refining capacity. On reflection this is NOT supported by FFS2 (not sure
>about FFS1), since only hypersonic streamlined hulls can skim for fuel.
>However, with CG and thrusters this process makes more sense to me. Think
>of the veiw (which I was when I pictured a tourist cruise) something like
>the Hindenburg gently gliding through the upper atmoshere of the Gas
>Giant, (or like a whale feeding if you have no poetry in your soul).

That's pretty much the way it should work, I would think. 

>Anyway I digress, and as i said the rules do not support this anyway, and
>it was such a good gimick to set up a "Titanic" scenario! Oh, well, back
>to the drawing board!

Actually, I don't see where the rules don't support a slower refueling
approach (not that rules bother me much ;-).  Sure FFS2 "requires"
hypersonic streamlining, but I've decided you only need that kind of
streamlining if you *don't* have CG on your ship.  If you do have CG, you
can float along like your whale or stately Zepplin, and that's the method
I'd prefer. 


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 00:54:55 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Eris saith

On 02/19/98 at 11:31 AM,  SemoFetus@aol.com said:

Re: Sabotage...

>Really?  I had always thought that the name had the same root, but the
>action was attributed to Dutch partisans in a factory during the Nazi
>occupation. I've always wondered about the age of the term though...

>There was an anarchist bookstore in my area called the Wooden Shoe, and
>they had a poster on the wall explaining the story.  Then later, a friend
>of mine watched a WWII documentary and relayed the ol', "you know where
>the term sabotage came from?" line.  I'd always been interested to know
>how old the term was, in case it predated the 1940

I did a little browsing and found that Sabotage was listed in the 1910
Webster's Dictionary so it predates the second *and* first world war.  I
remember reading the story about the French luddites using their wooden
sabots to block the gears of mechanical looms, but those could have been as
mythical as our "pregnate with a bullet" camp follower.  The story sounds
good though. ;->

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:34:39 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Starport Economics

At 01:25 AM 19/02/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>And as I've noted elsewhere, any planet that didn't *develop* a wired
>comm net on its own will likely never have one. Once contacted, its
>*much* cheaper to put up a low level satellite telephone net like the
>ones just coming into service here on earth. The satellites are
>*cheap*, and you need less than 100. The units the folks on the ground
>use aren't that much different from a cell phone. For a low tech world
>you'make the ground units tabletop-sized, so as to make swapping boards
>easier, and likely use larger rechargable batteries and solar cells.
>
>They'd still be less than 100 credits each. And even in a place where
>that was a months wages, or even a *years* wages, you'd find them.
>Villages go together to buy that sort of thing now. And the richer
>farmers/landholders would want their own.
>
>I think this is part of the fun of Traveller. Having the players learn
>that "low tech" *doesn't* necessarily mean "stupid" *or* "ignorant". 

IMO a lot of low TL cultures equipment and knowledge will be more like cold
war Soviet stuff than modern western equipment. It'll be bigger and need
more maintenence than higher TL gear, but it won't always be much less
effective. Try an AK-47 - not very advanced materials, sights, etc, but it
does the trick. Likewise Soviet SAMs.

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:44:39 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM\TML posts

>> I know no one's objected so far. But does anybody have objections to their
>> TML mailings being on the CD-ROM?

Not at all, though why anyone'd want to read my posts again is beyond me :)

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:55:47 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: jump vs stutterwarp

At 10:39 PM 19/02/98 EST, Richard wrote:
>I have a philosopical question.
>
>what if a race develops stutterwarp instead of Jump drives? whould they be
>considered a minor race? 
>
>richard

Not by a TL-11 culture. Without Thruster Plates you'd be munched.


- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:52:10 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

At 06:32 PM 19/02/98 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:
>At 07:02 pm 2/18/98 +1300, I (Rupert) wrote:
>>The version I heard was that the Air Force decided they wern't going to
>>replace the old A-10s, and the Army sid that if the Air Force wouldn'd
>>provide the support they needed (i.e. the A-10s), then they'd do it
>>themselves. In order to prevent a precedent being set the Air Force then
>>decided that they would keep the A-10s in service after all.
>
>	The Air Force promised it would provide the same support with F16s, and
>trotted out statistics showing that, on the range, an F16 at 300kts had the
>same accuracy as an A10 at 300kts.  What they ignored was the fact that as
>soon as somebody started shooting at said F16 pilot (lacking the titanium
>crew compartment of the A10), he'd crank it up to about 600kts, and
>accuracy would go all to hell....

It'd be interesting to see just how they intended to put put a GAU-8A on an
F-16 too...

- -- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
   Palmerston North
   New Zealand

   "If in doubt - wipe it out."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 01:15:10 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: jump vs stutterwarp

On 02/19/98 at 10:39 PM,  RSpake2064@aol.com said:

>I have a philosopical question.

>what if a race develops stutterwarp instead of Jump drives? whould they be
>considered a minor race? 

Not after they beat the stew out of a few of the "majors". ;->

The major vs minor thing is mainly propaganda anyway, IMO. Quite a few of
us suspect none of the "major" races independently invented the jump drive.
I know what the canon *says*, but what's the truth behind the truth? Are
the major races just better at hiding the fact they found JD's and copied
them? Were they so good at hiding the fact that they *now* believe their
own propaganda?  Do the Templars know the truth? ;-p

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 01:26:42 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

On 02/19/98 at 10:36 PM,  Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@edgenet.net> said:
 
>> Another idea you might want to consider is storing the hydrogen as
>> slush.  This was proposed a few years ago for rocket design. You get
>> improved storage density and a *little* additional structural support
>> over storing the H2 as a liquid.  IIRC, the slush was "melted" by
>> cycling hydrogen through the nozzle walls to preheat it and back through
>> the storage tanks using some of the waste heat to liquify the hydrogen
>> slush.

>Yep, it was for NASP, on which I had a friend working. 

No, no! What I'm remembering was earlier than that. There was a concept
piece in AW&ST back in the early 80's, pre NASP, it was for an advance
rocket design that went no further than concept. In fact, it might have
been a letter to the editor rather than an article. 

>It failed and is now a dead project.  

It meaning NASP? I wouldn't say it failed, just that the funding wasn't
continued. There have been a number of projects that have had their funding
cut that could have succeeded. 

Based on experiments around the world, I'd say the technologies *exist* to
build spaceplanes. The business and political will isn't there to do
it...at the moment. 

All IMO, of course,

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 01:31:03 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: T4 Sales Increase!

On 02/16/98 at 04:32 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>I haven't posted to the TML in who knows how long, but upon receiving 
>this news from my local store, I just had to report to the list.

Hi Ken!

It's good to see you posting again.  Yes, that was good news. Let's hope
sales are doing well all over the world. 

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:51:43 +0800
From: crew@earwax.pd.uwa.edu.au (David Crew)
Subject: Discarding Sabot Rounds

I have a question which arose in my game the other day.  I'm subjecting my
players to 'Chamax Plague' using MT rules and they were busily gunning down
any Chamaxi that moved when one of them pointed out that the Discarding
Sabot rounds he was using from his Advanced Combat Rifle had a danger space
(1.5 m according to the Players Manual).  I realised I didn't actually know
what a DS round was so I thought I'd ask the knowledgible members of the
list! :)

So:

a) What is a DS round?  It has higher penetration than normal rounds but why?

b) Should a DS round have a danger space  and if so why?

David Crew
MT Ref (Trojan Reach 1118).
crew@earwax.pd.uwa.edu.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:57:01 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: jump vs stutterwarp

>I have a philosopical question.
>
>what if a race develops stutterwarp instead of Jump drives? whould they be
>considered a minor race? 

  Don't you mean a _religious_ question? They would, after all, be heretics...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:02:43
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #196

>
>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:32:58 -0800
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Macro-economics
>
>>One of the things we don't do well in Traveller economic rules is handle
>>the curves. Supply, demand, cost, etc are all curves, not generally
>>straight lines, and have you ever heard a Traveller player/gm/poster
>>talk about elasticity? ;->
>
>  
>  Besides, the Trav universe is scary enough just thinking of all
>the different models of TL 6 firearms out there somewhere, without
>worrying about the genuine accuracy of the economic models. Self-
>consistency takes enough work as it is.
>

It's actually a lot worse than that.

In the real world, "supply" and "demand" arent really curves either. Often,
they are points, or backward bending or weird stuff like that. You also
have the problem of goods that people buy *because* they are expensive (or
people using price as a proxy for quality). You also have advertising and
similar techniques that are used to move the "demand curve" itself.

Then you have the screaming insane mess that happens to micro-economic
theory when you drop the assumption of costless information (how much is
your dog worth ? Answer : How much will someone pay me for it ? Second
question : How much would it cost me to find out how much someone will pay
you for your dog. Second answer : We can't know, we can only guess).

So we deal with the problem by using some numbers as proxies (ie
infrastructure, culture etc) and look the other way when people point out
things like the non-fungibility of different types of capital, or the
possibilities of capital reswitching, or where does this number of 3% for
the Imperial Rate of Interest come from, anyway ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:05:55 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

>Sure, and with a couple or three technological breakthroughs would work
>like a charm. The first problem is the rate of infusion into the solid,
>right now that takes a *long* time. The second problem is the extraction
>of the hydrogen from the soild, right now that's much too slow for any
>of the Jump Drive theories that require the hydrogen in massive
>quantites over a period of minutes. Third you have the effect of the
>hydrogen on the soild, right now the best candidates get brittle pretty
>quickly so you couldn't use them as structural support.

I figure is useful mostly for second jump fuel storage. Say you have a J-1
ship with an extra J-1 fuel stored inside the armour etc. It is a very good
thing this requirement that j-fuel has to be gobbled-up-able in a short
time as this leaves out the much more problematic (from a canon standpoint
if you can grasp such a concept ;-) idea of using water as hydrogen
storage.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:06:23 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starports: Potential FAQ Information

>Why not zip up all this info and e-mail it to interested parties, or
>post on a web site somewhere
>
>I'd love a copy!
>
>Simon

Yes, I'm interested too.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:16:05 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:

>Okay.  Point well taken.  Then, in future postings of this type, I will go
>hog-wild with the future slang...
>
>Semo

Either go hogwild and perhaps lose some of the audience or just borrow
slang, phrases from today and Travellerify them. The only thing important
is to THINK about what you write. Look at the stuff from DGP, the interview
with Norris for instance was lightly sprinkled with feasle-sticks,
true-daughter and other noncontemporary terms that set the mood.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:57:47 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Semo's recent posts

I'd just like to join in the choruses of well done. I've cut and saved
them all. This is what Traveller is all about, this level of background
detail. I'm already planning on having my players smuggling illegal
"dress-me-up" copies.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"The dead have no nationality"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:41:35 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?

> From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> >> Legate said:
> >> >And your point being?  As everyone in the English Speaking World
knows
> >the
> >> >French must be nuked, just to protect McDonalds & Blockbuster Video. 
> >Add
> >> >to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis 
> >> I am shocked...shocked, do you hear...to diascver that this base
canard
> >is
> >> still circulating in an educated venue such as the TML. 
> >Where is that damn duck? ;<)
> >Please be as shocked as you want.  I also say that the next time a few
AF
> >planes are flying over France a few bombs should "accidently" be
released.
> >This of course is my theory & I'm sticking to it.
> 	Ya know, those damn Tomahawk cruise missiles can be mighty inaccurate
..
> and it ain't that far from downtown Bagdad to the base of the Eifel tower
> (which  was only supposed to be temporary anyway) ...

Of course.  I'm sorry Froggie, but well our Whole Atlantic fleet had a
slight accident.  We launched every Tomahawk Missile at Paris & they should
hit in about 5 seconds.

> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass.
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.
Check it out! Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of
ultimate bad-asses will protect you. Check it out! Independently
targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP! Fry half a city with this puppy.
We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs,
we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got nukes, we got
knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:38:05 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Discarding Sabot Rounds

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:51:43 +0800, you wrote:

>I have a question which arose in my game the other day.  I'm subjecting my
>players to 'Chamax Plague' using MT rules and they were busily gunning down
>any Chamaxi that moved when one of them pointed out that the Discarding
>Sabot rounds he was using from his Advanced Combat Rifle had a danger space
>(1.5 m according to the Players Manual).  I realised I didn't actually know
>what a DS round was so I thought I'd ask the knowledgible members of the
>list! :)
>
>So:
>
>a) What is a DS round?  It has higher penetration than normal rounds but why?

A discarding sabot round has a smaller calibre round inside a sleeve
that drops away when fired. This increased the velocity of the smaller
projectile, increasing the penetration and range of it.

>b) Should a DS round have a danger space  and if so why?
>
I guess that's for the sleeve when it drops away after leaving the
muzzle.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:12:56 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Macroeconomics

From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>One of the things we don't do well in Traveller economic rules is
>>handle the curves. Supply, demand, cost, etc are all curves, not
>>generally straight lines, and have you ever heard a Traveller
>>player/gm/poster talk about elasticity? ;->

>  Not in those words, as such, but I'm sure that a bunch of people on
>the list are familiar with them. The problem is similar to the
>occasional burst of Army-ese "death by acronym", or science-speak, 
>or, well, German, for example.
>  Besides, the Trav universe is scary enough just thinking of all the
>different models of TL 6 firearms out there somewhere, without
>worrying about the genuine accuracy of the economic models. Self-
>consistency takes enough work as it is.

	Well, I am a mathematician, but I've been working in Economics 
Faculties (as Assistant Prof.) for some years now, and my advice will 
be... do not pay any attention. We do not really have any idea 
whether the demand an supply functions exist at all, let alone 
whether they are curves, lines or fractal boundaries of some 
non-measurable set. And, besides, there is strong evidence that all 
of them are very sensitive to specification details: in other words, 
even if we had a complete theory (which we do not have) specifying an 
isoleastic demand function for the whole Earth, this would not need 
to be the case in other worlds, and, of course, this would not 
necessarily have any meaning in the framework of an interstellar 
economy. So... use whatever you thing sound reasonable in your 
universe, and forget Economic Theory. Besides, if you think 
contemporary terran Economic Theory would be fun in your universe, 
try (as introduction) Burda-Wyploscz, Macroeconomics: A European 
Text, by Oxford University Press. It treats international open 
economies, which could arguably be thought to be analogous to 
interstellar economics.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer a.k.a. the Geonee-maker
================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 03:55:58 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: new question of the week

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >You didn't know about the Gamma World CDrom we are getting together?
> >Are you on the Gamma World email list?
> 
> No I'm not, and I didn't know.  Is this the same one that was run by Thomas
> Biskup (sp?) a few years back?
> 
> Semo


Yes, and it is still ran by him.  you are more then welcome to join it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:13:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Eris saith

In mail you write:

>>Is this a "fact" ie written down somewhere. Stuff like this is great to
>>collect and drop during lunch breaks. I'll give you one for free:
>>The terms sabotage supposedly comes from french female weavers (is that a
>>word, machine operators producing clothing fabrics). At some point the got
>>irritated of low wages/working conditions and used their wooden shoes to
>>damage the machines. These shoes are called "sabot" in french (yes the same
>>root for the military sabot term). So they "sabotaged" the factory.
>
> Really?  I had always thought that the name had the same root, but the action
> was attributed to Dutch partisans in a factory during the Nazi occupation.
> I've always wondered about the age of the term though...

As far as I know, it ghoes back to the *early* days of the industrial
revolution. The workers sabotaged the machines as part of a ""machinery
is evil" campaign. So it probably dates back to the 1700s.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 01:50:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:19:05 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Add to that the fact that they like Jerry Lewis not the real Jerry
>> > Lee Lewis, but the one who worked with Don Martian & had only good
>> > stuff with him.
>> 
>> Uhm...
>> 
>> Jerry Lewis worked with *Dean* Martin. *Don* Martin is an artist for
>> MAD magazine. :-)
>
> It frightens me that Leonard knows this...

If I've been "exposed" to the info, I usually retain the gist of it.
Hand on tests, and for driving the person(s) on the other side of the
ref screen *nuts*.

But it's hardly frightening. The contents of my "toy bag" and my
"armory" now *that* is frightening. 

Seriously,  happen to have been exposed to entirely too much Dean
Martin because my mother liked his TV show. I've seen some of the
Martin and Lewis movies when I was younger and I wasn't impressed. 

I find "Matt helm" (Dean Martin trying to be a secret agent) somewhat
watchable because it is *so* silly. But I much prefer Coburn's "Flint"
movies.

And yes, I do like MAD magazine. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:28:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: Majordomo results: Unsubscribe.

In mail you write:

> From: Richard A. Flores <cybernot@gte.net>
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Note the above address. It's the address the list sees you as posting from.

>>The last time I tried to do a GET, I was told that I was not a member, even
>>though I keep getting posts.  To those trying to get off, hang on.  There
>>seems to something wrong with the robot (majordomo) that runs the list.
>>
>>>>>>> unsubscribe traveller kherrend@stlgate.byu.edu
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This address is *not* the address the list sees you as posting from, so
*of course* it won't unsubscribe you!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:22:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe

In mail you write:

> At 05:43 PM 2/19/98 -0500, Dom wrote:
> <Snipped altogether!>...
>
> Good reading list!  
>
> Let us not forget the Galactic Geographic!  More than one expedition has
> been launched to study an arcane system or peculiar species at their
> behest...  

More likely name would be "Imperial Astrographic"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #197
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 20 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 198



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe AND culture
Re: Imperial Credit exchange Rate
Re: Next Software Project
Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?
Re: CD-ROM\TML posts
!!!!!!!!!!! Traveller Items (Books and Miniatures) for Sale !!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: CD-ROM\TML posts
Equipment: Stealth Suit, Memory eraser drug, etc. 
Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!
Re: IM equipment/doctrine
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: Macroeconomics
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170
Speculation on Religion in Cherryh
Concert of the Century

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:41:38 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

>        Nope. Occam's razor would lead me to believe that you can't prove
>either
>way, and hence become an agnostic ...

You are mistaken about Occams razor. If you cannot prove wether God exists
or not you apply the Occams razor and choose the theory that postulates the
least amount of unmeasureable data.
Bye bye god-theory no matter how comforting it may seem. We can take this
to e-mail if you like but I know it is meaningless. Religious people aren't
religious because that's the best theory for the given data but rather they
have FAITH. All I said was that atheists should not be constructed as
having a faith as they could be using scientific methods in everyday life.
I'm not saying that you should use scientific methods all the time just
that if you do, you're forced to choose the non-god theory unless you have
been subject to measureable, repeatable miracles unexplainable by science.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:04:12 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe AND culture

>The way I see it sort of is that each individual world is going to have its
>own culture and its own feel.  The problem with that, for me at least, is when
>I run my campaign, I run it from week to week, and its difficult to tell where
>the PCs might stop, let alone where they'll stay for a long time.  I can (and
>do) put different goals in adventures on different planets, and it generally
>keeps them to a straight line, but it is very difficult to come up with
>interesting stuff each week for each world.  There are only so many different
>customs and leaders and mainworlds you can deal with from week to week...
>
>Semo

I use the random cultural quirks tables in WBH a lot when my group go
someplace unexpected. Then I just invent some details regarding this quirk
during play and afterwards I try to come up with a rational justification
which, surprisingly, generally goes more or less automatically.

I think that Imperial culture is important, esp subculture, because those
things the players can learn and use and this makes them more embedded in
the Imperium. The hardest part for me as a ref is making the players feel
they're Imperials too. Most NPCs knows more about the goings of the
industry, economy, philosophy, fashion etc than the players so sometime
they feel like tourists in a foreign country despite them being just as
Imperial as the NPCs.

My current campaign has been going on for 6 years realtime and my major
player still feels alienated from time to time. How do the other refs
handle this?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:16:11 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Credit exchange Rate

In a message dated 98-02-18 15:07:34 EST, you write:

<< 
 IMTU, the Imperial Credit is somewhere around $10, though I wonder
 if that's a little high...
 
  >>
In 1977, my working rule of thumb was that a credit equalled a dollar.
Somewhere along the way, that was influenced by inflation.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:16:12 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

In a message dated 98-02-19 13:55:35 EST, you write:

<< 
 I'm trying to decide on my next programming project.  Please cast your
 votes for:
 
 1) QSDS (Mac/PC) - as it says
 
 2) Metator (Mac, PC a long way away) - system detailing and mapping
 
 3) Cartos (Mac, PC a way away) - sector/empire mapping and generation
 
 4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says >>

The two most popular subjects are Ships and Sectors. I would vote for Sector
Mappings /etc.


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:16:07 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

In a message dated 98-02-18 12:05:54 EST, you write:

<< Well, can we gather the best theories of starport capacity,
 layout, sizes, facilities et al and build them into a FAQ?
 It's qualifying as a Frequent one alright...
 
 Rob >>

I would love to know the answers too, and even incorporate them into my
chapter on Starports

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:00:49 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM\TML posts

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         I know no one's objected so far. But does anybody have objections to their
> TML mailings being on the CD-ROM?
>         I'm more than willing to post whatever copyright notices anybody wants on the
> material. And in fact have requested such when possible.
> 
> Bryan


I have absolutely ZERO objections.  Can't wait to get my copy!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:17:26 -0500
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: !!!!!!!!!!! Traveller Items (Books and Miniatures) for Sale !!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi again,
	I have a friend who is internet incapable and wishes to sell his
collection of classic traveller items.

	I have personally inspected the items and given them rankings from 1 to 5
with 1 being the best condition (i.e. Mint) and a 5 being severely worn
with cracks in the cover, splits in the spine, etc.

	The list is as follows:

	Understanding Traveller (2)

	Book 1 (First Edition printing) (2.5)
	Book 2 (Second Edition printing) (2.5)
	Book 3 (First Edition printing) (2.5)
	Book 4 Mercenary (2.5)
	Book 5 High Guard (1.5)

	Supplement 6 76 Patrons (2)
	Supplement 8 Library Data A-M (2)
	Supplement 11 Library Data N-Z (2)
	Supplement 13 Veterans (1)
	Supplement 4 Citizens of the Imperium (2)

	Adventure 6 Expedition to Zhodane (2.5)

	Double Adventure 5 Chamax Plague/Horde (1.5)

	Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society #11 (2), 13 (1.25), 14 (2.5), 16
(1.5), 19 (2)

	Best of the Journal #1 (4)

	Striker Boxed Set (First Printing with all errata and supplements - MINT
CONDITION) (1)

	ATTENTION STEVE HUDSON:
		The below miniatures are up for exchange with similar items you had
arranged in our last exchange.  If you are still interested in these types
of items, please respond using the normal means.

	All Miniatures unpainted.  Original blisters have been opened to inspect
the figures upon original purchase, but sets are complete (even with
original packaging.
	Martian Metals 15mm miniatures (in original box) Imperial Marines with
FGMP-14 in various poses. (13 figures with separate support weapons)
	Martian Metals 15mm Miniatures (no box) Basic adventurers pack (15
miniatures)

	Invasion Earth game (boxed - punched) (2.5)
	Fifth Frontier War game (boxed - punched) (2.5)

	Please make an offer on the items above, and of course money talks on this
one, since it is not my stuff for sale.  Exchanges will be considered, but
money is most important to this individual.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply to: scspieker@ncweb.com
Include the following statement in the subject line:  "Bid for Traveller
Items"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMPORTANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for your time,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:43:28 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM\TML posts

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         I know no one's objected so far. But does anybody have objections to their
> TML mailings being on the CD-ROM?
>         I'm more than willing to post whatever copyright notices anybody wants on the
> material. And in fact have requested such when possible.

Have you checked with Marc regarding the copyright/trademark issues?  I
think there are a lot of legal loopholes that will have to be navigated
here.  You might also have to clear it with MPG-Net, though I suspect that
they will just want come credit for running the list as well as a pointer
to their web site.  I will inquire as to MPG-Nets specifics on it.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:46:08 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Equipment: Stealth Suit, Memory eraser drug, etc. 

Concepts by Jo Grant, details fleshed out by me.

Stealth Suit;  This one piece footed garment comes with a facemask and air
filter.  Together, every part of the human body is covered.  The fabric has
the following qualities.  It is fiber encapsulated so that no clothing
fibers will 'fall off' the garment.  this also keeps skin, sweat, and hair
from the wearer from being left behind.  With mask and respirator this
applies to the face as well.

The fabric is manufactured to prevent unwanted noise - it is smooth to
preven "rubbing noise", and cushioned to supress other noises.  The fabric
is generally flat black, and is non-reflective.  At high tech levels
(TL14+) a chameleon option is possible.  At TL14 it merely matches the
general pattern of the background, at TL15 it will exactly replicate the
pattern and appearance of the nearest surface (this can be quite fun at
parties).

Hood, mask and respirator are intended to prevent physical evidence from
being left at the scene of any activity the user may wish to undertake
which could then be DNA matched.  It also allows communication without any
outside noises occuring.  Sounds of excessive respiration will also be
supressed.

The feet have a thin non-skid pad on the bottom.  Footwear can be worn over
this, and in fact feet are not very well shod in the garment.

If stealth skill is used, a bonus of +1 per tech level above 8 against
unaugmented humans can be applied to all associated task rolls (adjust per
the situation).  If used against electronic surveillance, use the
difference in TL as the modifier; If the TL of the surveillence equipment
is higher than the suit's tech level there is a good (50%?) chance that the
equipment is specifically designed to be able to detect this sort of
intrusion.

Those without stealth skill or its equivalent must roll less than INT on 2D
to properly handle and don the outfit.  Failure will merely invalidate the
DNA-trace related capabilities.

This item is illegal on many worlds.

Stealth Suit, Cost Cr. 45,000 (+2500 x TL over 9), Wt. 1Kg, TL 9 to 15


Mem-X Drug;  Human and Human-like brains hold memories in chemical storage
for about 1 to 4 minutes before transferring them to long term memory.  A
drug has been developed to disrupt that short term storage scheme,
fragmenting and thereby erasing the memories encoded in the chemical matrix.

This drug is generally illegal, its effects and side effects are somewhat
unpredictable, but in most people it will erase 1 to 4 minutes of memory
(use 2d4 times 30 seconds if available, giving a bias to the 2 1/2 minute
point) and cause and equal amount of unconciousness.

Note that the affected person will awake, disoriented, and will wonder why
they were asleep.  No posthypnotic or other sorts of suggestions are
possible with this drug, nor can long term memory be affected, since this
uses a completely different storage scheme.

When available, the drug is in standard Dermospray capsules (dermospray
injections do not break the skin.  A doctor can find a dermospray injection
point with minor instruments, but its not a routine exam).  One capsule is
one adult dose.  When applied, a difficult roll against medical skill is
made; on catastrophic failure the person is allergic and goes into
anaphylectic (sp?) shock.  If the opportunity is available to examine a
person's (TL9+) medical record this sensitivity can be determined
beforehand (I gotta think of these things when I'm playing with Jo Grant!).

Mem-X Drug, Cost Cr. 1000/dose (+500 per Law Level over 5), Wt. Neg., TL 11


Whisperer;  An electronic device, the size of a fountain pen, which allows
the passing of verbal messages to an unaugmented person.  Range is about 25
meters, and is line-of-sight only.  The device uses a low power laser to
keep sound waves within a certain tight dispersion pattern.  The beam is
undetectable, except when in a direct path in front of or behind the target
(it will set off laser sensors within this path).  At 25m the terminal end
of the beam is about 1m across; at that range getting someone else (an
unintended recipient) in the "pickup" range is more likely.

When using the device, the bearer must make a "to hit" roll as though they
were trying to shoot the intended recipient with a pistol (treat unskilled
users as having zero-level skill if they had any chance to practice at
all).  Failure indicates the recipient didn't hear the message and another
attempt must be made (one combat round per attempt), a catastrophic failure
indicates that someone else has heard the message (someone adjacent to the
intended recipient or who walked into the beam between the transmitter and
te recipient).  The intended recipient may still have gotten the message,
roll d6 and on a 1-3 the message got through.

Frequently, this device is used in combination with a heads-up display
which can automatically show the device's area of effect as a red shading,
if so, give the  "shooter" a DM of +4 (make the roll 4 pips easier).  As
always, a maximum roll is a catastrophic failure.

Note that the device is one-way only.  A seperate device would be needed
for the user to receive any message back from the recipient.  The device
has a built in microphone, but with a compatible multiplexing communicator
the user can transmit via commdots, mastoid-implant, or forward a
communication she/he receives.

This device is not generally illegal; it is often used by important people
who need to be kept up to date, but are expected to undertake social
activities like mixing at parties or other events, and is sometimes used by
security and enforcement authorities to quietly evacuate a room.  The
effects of the device are distinctive, and anyone receiving a message of
this sort can tell its not a person next to them, and will know the method
of transmission if they've ever heard it before (or go to spy flicks).  The
recipient cannot tell where the message is coming from if the user takes
steps to conceal his or her location.

Whisperer, Cr. 500, Wt. Neg., TL 10

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:05:47 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Religion in America & Traveller too!

>>>Guaranteed to start a fight with a coworker if I equate atheism (a
>>>definite belief concerning Supreme Being(s), namely that they don't
>>>exist) with religion ...
>>>
>>>-- Dave Golden
>>
>>..or you could argue that atheists simply apply Occams razor to the
>problem...
>
>  Nope. Occam's razor would lead me to believe that you can't prove 
>either way, and hence become an agnostic ...
>

Atheists definately don't apply Occam's Razor IMO because that 
necessitates too many other explanations for things.


Greg Smith
The Count,
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:19:03 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IM equipment/doctrine

There was a huge debate on the TML about this around 6 months ago.

Some argued that all the high TL troops had been taken out earlier in 
the war, and only the TL 12 - 13 troops were left.  These TL 12-13 
troops represent the equivalent of the US national guard.

Others argues that the Solomani were low-tech scum.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:18:58 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

If you really can get more than 0.07 te/m3 hydrogen in a metallic or 
zeolite structure, then the slow diffussion from the tank can be used 
to inflate an external bladder or ten (like a portable drop tank!).  
When the bladder is full, you can then initiate jump with the <handwave 
of your choice> rapid H2 use.  The bladder is "reeled in" as fast as 
the H2 is used, so you can jump based on your normal displacement size.

The extra storage density would need to be a significant benefit (I 
don't think the +50% associated with water or ammonia storage would 
make the bladder system feasible.

Mind you, I'm not sure what kind of bladder material will remain 
flexible at 4 Kelvin - any of you NASA space techs know?

I have not seen any recent articles, but the older hydrogen absorbtion 
methods proposed for H2-gas powered cars only claimed that you could 
store more H2 in your cars fuel tank using activated carbon / titanium 
/ zeolite than you could in the empty tank alone ... but that is 
because of the relatively modest pressure used to store the H2 gas in 
the fuel tank.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:20:39 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Macroeconomics

>>>generally straight lines, and have you ever heard a Traveller
>>>player/gm/poster talk about elasticity? ;->
>

I think on some earlier posts the Sayat talked about elasticity and 
spandex....

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:31:49 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:
> ++Shadow said:
> >Check history. In the 12800s new arrivals in places like India or other
> >"frontier" areas would be grilled about the latest style back in the
> >capital (Paris, London, Washington). And that was at a time when it may
> >have taken 3 to 6 months to travel the distance.
>
> I'll bet that the Spinward Marches is filled with all kinds of fashion
don'ts
> then :^)
>
> Imagine the horrified look that a trendy Core noble would have as he
ventured
> to the Spinward Marches on business and saw all of the out-of-date
fashions...
>
> Then imagine the horrified looks on all of his friend's faces when he got
back
> home.

I'm not sure this is  right.  Travellers  to  the  frontier  from
Paris/London/Washington would have been basically out of  contact
while  travelling.   Ditto  on  the  return  journey  leading  to
cultural "jet-lag".  In  TRAVELLER  a  journey  to  the  Spinward
Marches from Core would not be done in isolation (there are  many
stops along the way).  So  you  would  get  a  sort  of  cultural
"doppler effect" ... fashions appearing to hardly change  at  all
on the outward journey, resuming normal  speed  of  change  while
staying over, and appearing  to  change  rapidly  on  the  return
journey.  Thus your trendy Core noble would be saved a fate worse
than death.

Of course this assumes that the frontier regions try to ape  Core
fashions ... I think there are enough  cultural  centres  'behind
the claw' that Deneb and  the  Spinward  Marches  would  tend  to
develop their own galactic cultural  styles.  Perhaps  a  problem
for the Imperium is that this cultural fragmentation can lead  to
political break-away tendencies.  Hmmm ... I see a new branch  of
the Imperial beaucracy: the Fashion Police!  :-^



Regards PLST
email: ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk
web:   http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:39:44 -0800
From: "Greg Waters" <unclmddy@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #170

> >>The version I heard was that the Air Force decided they wern't going to
> >>replace the old A-10s, and the Army sid that if the Air Force wouldn'd
> >>provide the support they needed (i.e. the A-10s), then they'd do it
> >>themselves. In order to prevent a precedent being set the Air Force
then
> >>decided that they would keep the A-10s in service after all.

It's too bad the Marines didn't say the same thing about the A-6. When
those F-14s start getting shot up making bombing runs I hope people will
say something.

GGW

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:27:20 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Speculation on Religion in Cherryh

Someone recently wrote to me concerning an essay I had started speculating
on the religion of the Kif race in C.J. Cherryh's compact novels. Although
technically off topic, given the recent discussion here in the use of
Religion
in role-playing games I thought it might be of interest to people...

[From the Cherryhlist:]

Someone's comment about sending missionaries to the Kif got my mind
turning.
Do the Kif have religion? What would it be like. Anyway, having thought and
discussed it I'm presented my ideas in the form of a letter from a mythical
missionary to our favourite Kif from Chanur's Legacy. Part I covers Kiffish
religion and Part II (Wednsday?) is the apostolic bit, i.e. trying to make
Christianity appealing to a kiffish mindset. Comments encouraged and
welcomed...

Honor to you Vikktakkht an Nikkatu, Hakkikt Hakkiktun, Ambassador to the
Compact. Two years ago I came to you to be your skkukuk and you have shown
me
great honour in that time. You have directed your skku to answer my
questions
and listened carefully to what I have said about the human compact. This
time I
write to you of what I have learned of the kiffish religion and to say more
 on
the human religion and how, if the hakkikt considers it wise enough, the
hakkit
may prosper through it.
  In the early time of Kiffish society, when they were still worldbound,
the Kif
were, similar as they are now, a scoeity lead by strong hakts gathering
skku and
skkukuk beneath them. Gaining sfik through eating their enemies hearts and
becoming hakkikts. A hakkits sfik was measured by his power to destroy.
Sfik was
gained through destroying a powerful enemy. Sfik was gained by sacrificing
a
treasured item or valuable ally, thus showing the hakkikt has enough sfik
to
stand on his own without the sfik gained from these.
  Yet these hakkikts were not all powerful. Plagues, floods, and other
natural
disasters could wipe out vast amounts that no hakkikt could ever aspire to.
 Thus
they reasoned the hakkikts that had the ability to use these for their own
purposes must be great indeed. They considered them supernatural to the
world
and named them mekt-hakkikt.
  A hakkikt who was vassal to a mekt-hakkikt share in the sfik of that
mekt-hakkikt. If a natural disaster struk an enemy then it was the
mekt-hakkikt
showing its power against the rival. If a natural disaster struck at a
vassal of
a mekt-hakkikt then the deity was showing that it had enough sfik to stand
alone
without the aid of that vassal.
  Before this time the largest unit of social organisation was a hakkikt
and
what they could control through threat of destruction. As there was only so
 much
a Kif of the time could do with the weapons available the maximum area of
transient stability was small, leaving little time to improve their
weapons.
With the advent of mekt-hakkikts, hakkikts who were vassal to the same
mekt-hakkikt had a social convention whereby they could cooperate with
another
hakkikt without losing sfik. Now, of course, this was not always the case
and
frequently one hakkikt might disagree with another as to just what the
mekt-hakkikt intended. In this instance one groups split off from the other
proclaiming their mekt-hakkikt supreme and starting a war between rival
mekt-hakkikts through their hakkikts. Thus the deities of the Kif rise and
fall
according to their sfik the same as their vassals. However, in the interrum
times the areas under control of a single mekt-hakkikt were larger and
lasted
longer than under just hakkikts. The greater the transient stability the
more
free time there is for the hakkikts to develop their weapons and other
advances.
  Eventually their weapons developed to the point where they rivaled the
power
of natrual disasters at devestation. Hakkikts arose proclaiming that they
had
killed their mekt-hakkikts and now wielded powers greater than that.
Indeed, as
the Kif moved out into space they moved into an environment where there
were no
natural disasters, only Kif-made ones. In space a hakkikt could only fall
through the actions of another kif. The mekt-hakkikts all died or were
supplanted. It is only in recent times that there have arisen Kif powerful
enough to claim the title of Mekt-hakkikt.

[More recent mail:]
  Sorry, I never actually got around to this. I still have the ideas. It
may get done someday. The basic idea was introducing the idea of gaining
sfik
through personal self-sacrifice. Basically by denying worldly pleasures
(for
example) showed your strength and thus gained sfik. Or through doing
charitable
acts, ie expending energies where, stictly speaking, you wouldn't have to,
also
shows your stature and gains you sfik.
  Jesus (and I had Kif-ised the name as well, something like Kikus) gained
the
ultimate sfik by, first of all, by leading the perfect life. He defied
superiors,
and slapped the face of traditional spiritual authority. He gained a
following
and, although possessed of ultimate divine power, let himself be captured
and
killed by his enemies. However, this was not the final failing of an
otherwise
successful kif, but rather the crowning sfik-gaining act (there must be a
kif
noun for that!) of his career. For his followers did not knuckle under to
the
authorities, or split up, or fall to infighting, they recognised that he
had
ascended and gained great spirtual sfik and continued to worship and
proclaim
him (whatever the kif verb is for follow-the-leader). Even the one who
backstabbed him saw his failing and killed himself (to a kiffish mindset
this
is perhaps the ultimate argument of Jesus's post-life sfik).
  So, the missionaries slant is that kif who want to follow a really great
leader, should follow Kikus, since he is above challange and passes on sfik
 to
those who serve him well.
  An adaption of the parable of the coin (Render unto Ceaser that which is
Caeser's. Render unto God, that which is God's) allows for a split between
earthly devotion and spiritual devotion. You might follow a great temporal
leader with your body, to gain earthly sfik, but should follow a great
spiritual leader with your soul to gain divine sfik and thus gain a high
place
in his followers when you die.

Further Cherryh related discussion to the Cherryhlist please (subscribe by
asking jaymin@maths.tcd.ie politely). Further traveller realted discussion
to the TML.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:50:50 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Concert of the Century

Yo Folks,
     Given the recent discussion of entertainers, I thought I'd dump on the
list the introduction for a Milieu-0 adventure I started writing (in Memory
of Metlay, who left the TML to become a rock-star :-). It isn't complete,
and given the arse-wise policy of IG in not paying its writiers I doubt it
will ever see professional publication. I may finish it as an amateur
supplement for CORE. But don't hold your breath...
     Cheers,
          Jo


                          Concert of the Century




                             Jo & Lesley Grant
                               December 1997
  This  booklet is an extended Milieu-0 adventure which pits the characters
as  veteran  combatants  on the leading edge of the Cultural Imperialism of
Cleon?s Empire.


Introduction

  Milieu-0  is  a  time  of  chance  and  excitement. The Zhanasusitu trade
consortium  had developed the key to constructive uplifting of the Outback.
Through  their  success  Sylea had prospered to the point where Cleon could
justifiably take the throne.
  The  first  wave beyond the fringe are the Scouts. They chart and map and
work  out  what  cultures are suitable for uplift into trading partners and
where the resources are.
  The second wave into the fringe are the developers. These take the worlds
through  contact,  engineer  their  governments  and lay the groundwork for
industry.
  Then  it  is  the  turn  of the merchants. They set up workhouses and get
their  economy  going.  Industry,  manufacturing  and  goods production are
brought  up  to  the  level  where  they can then begin to afford to import
Imperial goods.
  Now  they  are  almost  ready  to  be  welcomed into the Imperium. Having
learned  to  work  like  good Imperial citizens, it is now time for them to
think  and  desire  goods  like  good Imperial citizens. It is time for the
cultural Imperialists.
  Advertisers,  promoters,  tour  agencies, snake-oil sales reps, etc. Line
them  up  and  send  them in. Bombard the bastards with rotating billboards
advertising  mood  rings  to enchant them. Trashy romance novels set in the
days  of  the  Rule  of  Man  to  give  them  that feeling of being part of
something  larger.  And  fashion,  hairstyles,  ornament, and cosmetics far
superior  to  the  animal  skins,  tin  trinkets,  and soot they had, until
recently donned.
  But all this is just skirmishing. Small exchange of fire a bigger war. On
the  tip  of  trendy,  at the height of hysteria, it is time to unleash the
Valkiries  of  Vogue,  let loose the Dogs of More, a Panzerblitz of Popular
Culture.
  It is time for Plutonium Rock.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #198
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 20 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 199



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

MT Starship Combat, Please Help...
Re: Eris saith
Re: new question of the week
Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:
Re: Semo's recent posts
Re: jump vs stutterwarp
Trade Classifications
Re: Eris saith
Re: Null development in key areas
Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:
Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe
ideas
Re: Eris saith
Re: Next Software Project
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: !!!!!!!!!!! Traveller Items (Books and Miniatures) for Sale !!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: ideas
Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe
Re: Concert of the Century
Re: Next Software Project
Bye for now
Re: jump vs stutterwarp
Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?
Re: Eris saith
Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage
Re: Equipment: Stealth Suit, Memory eraser drug, etc.
Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?
Re: Technician career & Tools (Society)
More info on "Galaxies in Collision" (Humour)
Re: Macroeconomics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:56:59 -0000
From: "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
Subject: MT Starship Combat, Please Help...

Hi guys,

    My campaign has never had an elemnt of starship combat. This all changed
last night and the results were very poor. I feel there is something wrong.
I'm using MT and the fight took place between a far trader and an armed
ships boat. These two ships are as presented in the MT Imperial
Encyclopaedia. The only change is that both ships have grade 1 beam lasers
and the far trader has a grade 1 sand caster. The sensor tasks were
reasonable, once we checked the errata sheet. The weapon hit task almost
always failed and when it didn't, the sandcaster almost always prevents
effective penetration. The far trader could never hit the ships boat under
any circumstance, there was no dice roll that could possibly have landed a
hit. With a task difficulty of Dif, all that was needed was a DM result on
the confrontation task of >+2 to make the opponent invincible. The ships
boat vs. the far trader had a DM result of +5. The far trader could never
land a hit. Seems to me that the pirates of the spinward marches must prey
on far traders with nothing more than a ship's boat. This has to be wrong.
    I need to fix this, or MT starship combat is an utter waste of time and
this, I beleive, is not the case with the other members of the TML.

    Thanks in advance.

/Justin Durkan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:59:43 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eris saith

>As far as I know, it ghoes back to the *early* days of the industrial
>revolution. The workers sabotaged the machines as part of a ""machinery
>is evil" campaign. So it probably dates back to the 1700s.

I did a search on the web for this, and what I turned up was really rather
interesting.  There was an art show in one of the Southern states dealing with
shoes through the ages, and in a passing comment, the woman who organized the
show stated that there were a number of things about shoes that most people
didn't know, including the origins of the word sabotage.  According to her, it
had come from the practice of stomping on crops to ruin them...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:02:37 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: new question of the week

>> No I'm not, and I didn't know.  Is this the same one that was run by Thomas
>> Biskup (sp?) a few years back?
>> 
>> Semo
>
>
>Yes, and it is still ran by him.  you are more then welcome to join it.

Do you know the current address to become subscribed?  I tried the old one a
couple months ago and it said that the address no longer existed.  Thanks.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:07:43 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:

>Either go hogwild and perhaps lose some of the audience or just borrow
>slang, phrases from today and Travellerify them. The only thing important
>is to THINK about what you write. Look at the stuff from DGP, the interview
>with Norris for instance was lightly sprinkled with feasle-sticks,
>true-daughter and other noncontemporary terms that set the mood.

Guess I'll just have to find a balance, which I'll have to keep in mind for my
next movie review.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:08:34 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Semo's recent posts

>I'd just like to join in the choruses of well done. I've cut and saved
>them all. This is what Traveller is all about, this level of background
>detail. I'm already planning on having my players smuggling illegal
>"dress-me-up" copies.

Thank you.  You are just too kind!  :^)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:15:40 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: jump vs stutterwarp

>The major vs minor thing is mainly propaganda anyway, IMO. Quite a few of
>us suspect none of the "major" races independently invented the jump drive.
>I know what the canon *says*, but what's the truth behind the truth? Are
>the major races just better at hiding the fact they found JD's and copied
>them? Were they so good at hiding the fact that they *now* believe their
>own propaganda?  Do the Templars know the truth? ;-p

Well, there are the Aslan, who canon says did not discover jump on their own.
Then there's the Vilani, who I've always suspected since their interstellar
culture came so quickly after the war robots ran down.
The Solomani as far as I know, discovered it on their own (unless, of course,
that was a Vilani scout craft that crashed at Roswell!)  ;^)
The Hivers probably did discover jump on their own, since they had a wildly
imperfect version at first.
The Vargr...  Well, one never knows with the Vargr.
I'm not sure about the K'Kree, but I looked at a unified timeline last night,
and their race is extremely old, so they had plenty of time to do it on their
own if they did.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:16:46 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Trade Classifications

Hello all...
I'm new to the list but I've got some questions regarding trade
classifications in TNE (MT too).

In the sale price of cargo table, the column for Ice Capped (Ic) worlds
seems to be missing. The text describing Ice Capped worlds indicates
that they are poor markets.  Does that mean that they universally have a
- -1?

In a slightly related note... Since Barren (Ba) worlds have 0 population
wouldn't they all be Low Population (Lo) worlds (pop 4-). And if this is
true, should the Lo classification be ignored as the Va classification
is ignored on As worlds?

Thanks in advance
More questions to come...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:20:09 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eris saith

>I did a little browsing and found that Sabotage was listed in the 1910
>Webster's Dictionary so it predates the second *and* first world war.  I
>remember reading the story about the French luddites using their wooden
>sabots to block the gears of mechanical looms, but those could have been as
>mythical as our "pregnate with a bullet" camp follower.  The story sounds
>good though. ;->

As it turns out, the word _may_ have agricultural origins...  

This is the type of thing that always amazes me about language and the way
that it is ever changing.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:23:01 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Null development in key areas

>I don't think you have to worry about Mickey-D's. It'll take more than the
>French to knock them off.

Yeah, it might take a hip, retro ad campaign by Burger King.  :^)

>As an aside, we've coined a nice little Travellerism in the PBEM I'm
>running. Everybody drops by the bar to drink a cool beersii.  Craig, claims
>it was a typo, but I think it was his latent Vilani heritage peeking out.
>;->

Hahaha...  Too funny!  :^)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:29:48 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Future feel was Re: Some stuff about my posts:

>Guess I'll just have to find a balance, which I'll have to keep in mind for my
>next movie review.
>
>Semo

Ooops forgot again to mention that I REALLY liked your stuff.
Especially as you have written it without ref notes etc inside the text.
Great to prop up in Quark and give the players as handout. Too much talk of
penetration values, jumpdrive tech and too little about stuff like "What
colours to choose when buying this years Rashush", "Are Vargr really better
as cosmetists than humans", "How old can you be and still wear a Starman
Jones T-shirt in public" etc. Culture.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:33:12 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Entertainment in the Traveller Universe

>Of course this assumes that the frontier regions try to ape  Core
>fashions ... I think there are enough  cultural  centres  'behind
>the claw' that Deneb and  the  Spinward  Marches  would  tend  to
>develop their own galactic cultural  styles.  Perhaps  a  problem
>for the Imperium is that this cultural fragmentation can lead  to
>political break-away tendencies.  Hmmm ... I see a new branch  of
>the Imperial beaucracy: the Fashion Police!  :-^

Well, in the real American west, there was still a big trade in fashion,
especially out in California.  I would think that Spinward Marches Imperials
would undoubtedly try to ape their Core counterparts, especially nobles.  The
way I see the nobles in Traveller is as a very cutthroat group that are _very_
status oriented.

That's not to say that everybody in the Spinward Marches attempts to be a Core
fashion-plate, just as most western folk didn't dress up in the latest Paris
and New York fashions...

But the desire was still there among those who could afford them.  Eventually
the American west created its own fashions, using its own materials, and
eventually the non-fashionable pratical outfits became a fashionable style in
and of themselves (much later).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:08:54 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: ideas

Breaking one of my fundimental rules (nerver post in public while smashed
out of your mind), I would like to politely request some feedback on some
of my more "off the wall" concepts:

1) The "Phantom of the Opera" as a Traveller senario {hey I'm drunk don't
                                                      expect me to spell too}
2) Zulu's in space
C) Famous student pranks of the 3rd Imperium
iv) Traveller as a generic game system (a "magic" system for Traveller)
5) Childhood in the 3rd Imperium (hey everybody needs a reson to get drunk)


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"15 into 1 does go, I'm living proof"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:25:34 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eris saith

I agree with you that someone probably tried to make the claim, but I still
think that it is impossible.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:36:45 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

Rob Prior wrote:
>
><<
> I'm trying to decide on my next programming project.  Please cast your
> votes for:
>
My vote is for Metator, big time.  Andy Akin's FFS spreadsheet is great for
ship building, and I don't see the point in duplicating his effort, really.
A solar system and world builder that allows customization and tinkering
with the results, like his FFS2 spreadsheet does, would be GREAT.  I'd pay
multiple registration fees for it, if that's any encouragement <G>.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:36:20 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

>[slush hydrogen]
>>Yep, it was for NASP, on which I had a friend working. 
>>It failed and is now a dead project.  
>It meaning NASP? I wouldn't say it failed, just that the funding wasn't
>?continued. There have been a number of projects that have had their funding
>cut that could have succeeded. 

NASP probably should be considered a failure, but not because of slush
hydrogen but because of the engines - scramjets with useful performance
regimes turn out to be much harder than anyone thought. Slush hydrogen is
still being pursued, although the advantages are pretty marginal (about 10%
higher density, I think) and the difficulties severe (getting the fuel out of
the tanks at the right rate is hard.)

>Based on experiments around the world, I'd say the technologies *exist* to
>build spaceplanes. The business and political will isn't there to do
>it...at the moment. 
Spaceplanes with airbreathing engines seem unlikely (to me, though some
would disagree.) Fully-resuable single-stage-to-orbit vehicles seem 
fairly likely, though - NASA is pretty serious about X-33, LockMart is 
interested in VentureStar (it's successor) and there are a lot of 
neat, weird concepts for small SSTOs being pursued by small companies
(ranging in weirdness from aerially-refuelled peroxide-burning spaceplanes,
to towed-launch spaceplanes, to orbital helicopters...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:43:15 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: !!!!!!!!!!! Traveller Items (Books and Miniatures) for Sale !!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Scott;

How much does your friend want for the Striker Rules? Also, I am interested in
the minis, if Mr. Hudson changes his mind.

Seth
sethkimmel@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:55:07 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: ideas

At 01:08 AM 2/21/98 +1300, you wrote:
>Breaking one of my fundimental rules (nerver post in public while smashed
>out of your mind), I would like to politely request some feedback on some
>of my more "off the wall" concepts:
>
>1) The "Phantom of the Opera" as a Traveller senario too

This has possibilities, especially if the Phantom is a long stranded
Imperial scout using the rements of his high tech equipment to haunt the
Opera House.. hmmm.. I like this one.

>2) Zulu's in space

How would they breathe?   Seriously, the horde of low tech fanatics vs. the
squad of high tech soldiers is a Traveller staple.

>C) Famous student pranks of the 3rd Imperium

Craig would be better suited to handle this one  Praise Rusto!

>iv) Traveller as a generic game system (a "magic" system for Traveller)

No.  Not.  The only way I would accept this is a world where the local
wizards are psionicists.

>5) Childhood in the 3rd Imperium (hey everybody needs a reson to get drunk)

Actually, one of the players in my last campaign did a pretty extensive
write up on the circumstances of his childhood, added a great deal of depth
to his character.

For those truly interested in the life path style, I recommend Paul
Jayquay's Central Casting books.  Some of the beackrounds are a little odd,
bt they make for interesting characters.  Be warned, in the first editions
Paul's personel religious beliefs are all over the place (homosexuality is
an evil trait) so look for the second editions.
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:08:00 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Magazines in the Traveller Universe

>Good reading list!  
>
>Let us not forget the Galactic Geographic!  More than one expedition has
>been launched to study an arcane system or peculiar species at their
>behest...  

And of course, they have to have their own vidprog:

"Look at that old man, he looks like an old ape!"

Whoops...  sorry...  movie reference...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:37:29 EST
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Concert of the Century

<adventure intro snipped>

Very nice introduction.  I love the "let loose the dogs of more!" line.  It
was great.  ;^)

So, I take it that the players are supposed to be the entertainers, tour reps,
and what not?

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 18:40 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Next Software Project

In-Reply-To: <fc.001cfe570001639c3b9aca00ab385a09.163af@nynet.nybe.on.ca>

Rob,

> I'm trying to decide on my next programming project.  Please cast your
> votes for:
>  
> 1) QSDS (Mac/PC) - as it says
>  
> 2) Metator (Mac, PC a long way away) - system detailing and mapping
>  
> 3) Cartos (Mac, PC a way away) - sector/empire mapping and generation
>  
> 4) FFS2 (both Mac/PC a way away) - as it says

In order,

1. FF&S2 (PC)
2. Metator (PC)
3. Cartos (PC)
4. QSDS (PC)

If you're only considering Mac ATM, my vote is for "none of the above".
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 18:40 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Bye for now

I'm going to unsub for a week, so if you need me mail direct.

I'll be back...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:51:15 EST
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: jump vs stutterwarp

In a message dated 2/19/98 20:35:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
deadeye@ebicom.net writes:

<< > I have a philosopical question.
 > 
 > what if a race develops stutterwarp instead of Jump drives? whould they be
 > considered a minor race?
 > 
 > richard
 
 
 Yes.  Just like the Aslan are.
  >>

Why?  They race developed FTL travel on it's own...just not the same kind of
FTL drive as everyone else.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:41:58 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: (Starports) Is it time for a FAQ?

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:16:07 EST, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 98-02-18 12:05:54 EST, you write:
> 
> << Well, can we gather the best theories of starport capacity,
>  layout, sizes, facilities et al and build them into a FAQ?
>  It's qualifying as a Frequent one alright...
>  
>  Rob >>
> 
> I would love to know the answers too, and even incorporate tthem into my
> chapter on Starports

To get an idea on how a resource handling starports should look like, I'd
recommend Star Wars' "Platt's Starport Guide"-- but only if you can pick it
up for cheap.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:50:05 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Eris saith

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> I agree with you that someone probably tried to make the claim, but I still
> think that it is impossible.

Oh, I think being a "son of a gun" would be impossible too, hence my
little smiley.  I enjoy picking up tall-tales like this though because
you never know when you might be able to adapt them and slide them into
a game.


Eris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:11:12 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Fuel Tankage

It occurs to me that we all have been looking at something and not seeing it.

  If cracking water permits a ship to carry more liquid hydrogen than
carrying Standard Liquid Hydrogen, then ships that carry water as the
primary fuel can make a jump, spend some time cracking, and then make
another jump without needing an interplanetary fuelling station...  It also
means that a fleet of ships can jump to outer orbit of a star, crack water,
then head inwards to fight with a full fuel tanks...

hmmmm

    Hal

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:04:37 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Equipment: Stealth Suit, Memory eraser drug, etc.

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> sez,

>Stealth Suit;  This one piece footed garment comes with a facemask and air
>filter.  Together, every part of the human body is covered.  The fabric has
>the following qualities. 

Good one, Peter and Jo. Copied and saved. Could come in handy.

>Mem-X Drug;  Human and Human-like brains hold memories in chemical storage
>for about 1 to 4 minutes before transferring them to long term memory.  A
>drug has been developed to disrupt that short term storage scheme,
>fragmenting and thereby erasing the memories encoded in the chemical matrix.

I like the idea of this one (somebody's been watching _Men In Black_:), but
I have a problem with the handwaved explanation. The exact process behind
memory encoding is not yet known, but it almost certainly isn't in the form
of a "chemical matrix". This seems to be a hold-over from a now-disproven
late-Sixties notion of RNA memory storage. Larry Niven popularized the
concept in SF, where it still crops up all too often, but it is definitely
not true. Certainly, there are lots of chemicals involved in neural
impulses, but this does not mean memories are encoded chemically.

Current theory is that short-term memories are encoded in impulses cycling
through neural pathways. The memory circuits for fact memories and skill
memories are different. In one possible circuit for fact memory,
"information received by the sensory regions of the cerebral cortex is
relayed by the amygdala and hippocampus to the diencephalon (thalamus and
hypothalamus), which in turn transmits impulses to forebrain regions called
the prefrontal cortex and basal forebrain. Using multiple neural
connections with the sensory cortex, the basal forebrain completes the
memory circuit by transmitting impulses to the same sensory region that
first perceived the sensory input." (Biology, 2nd ed, Neil A. Campbell,
1990, page 1006.)

The theory goes that, with each cycle, the cortical neurons are 'trained',
altered in some manner which enhances their tendencies to repeat the same
pattern of firing in the future. The actual mechanism of memory
consolidation is still under investigation - I'd be interested if anyone on
the list has more recent information on this.

Anyway, Mem-X drug can still be made to work, with a different handwave. It
would be a molecule designed to interfere with the chemical changes in the
dendrites which cause memory consolidation. According to one theory, neural
input causes a postsynaptic cell to take up calcium; the calcium activates
enzymes that alter the cytoskeleton, changing the structure of the dendrite
in such a way that future transmission across that synapse is enhanced. If
this theory is true, I think Mem-X would have to bind with these
memory-consolidation enzymes, to prevent their activation by calcium.
Messing with the uptake of calcium would probably be a Bad Idea, as it
would have an effect on lots more than just memory in the brain, but the
whole nervous system as well.

>This drug is generally illegal, its effects and side effects are somewhat
>unpredictable, but in most people it will erase 1 to 4 minutes of memory
>(use 2d4 times 30 seconds if available, giving a bias to the 2 1/2 minute
>point) and cause and equal amount of unconciousness.

It wouldn't even need to cause unconsciousness. There's a neurological
disorder called "Korsakov's Syndrome" in which a person has no long-term
memory consolidation. They can remember new things for perhaps ten or
fifteen minutes, but then forget completely. This can happen while they're
wide awake and talking to you; they seem perfectly normal until they ask
you, for the third time, who you are. In effect, Mem-X would induce a form
of short-term Korsakov's. (William Gibson had a character in _Mona Lisa
Overdrive_ who had been given a permanent case of Induced Korsakov's,
IIRC.)

Hmmm. I should go to the library and track down more current information on
memory consolidation. I suspect there could well be lots of drugs already
known to have the same effect as Mem-X. Alcohol, for instance...

 + GMG +

PS: Er...who are you again? What were we just talking about?

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
        "...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun:
      the raw, heady essence of interstellar civilization."
                        --Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:07:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Slings & Jerry Lewis?

"Legate" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:

>Of course.  I'm sorry Froggie, but well our Whole Atlantic fleet had a
>slight accident.  We launched every Tomahawk Missile at Paris & they should
>hit in about 5 seconds.

As an EU citizen I have to protest at the closeness of Paris to the UK -
Please reconsider using nukes.
- ---
Meanwhile, the French SSBN fleet launches a counter strike against
Washington and New Year, and they start arming the Iraqi forces...
- ---
Xenophobic roleplaying on the TML - I love it. :-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:25:27 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Technician career & Tools (Society)

>
>Certification:  the easy way to deal with it is to say that any character
>
>who reaches a certain skill level is certified. 


Make that a task to obtain certification. You might be skilled and fail;
you might be unskilled and pass. Makes things a bit chancier for employers.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:31:47 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: More info on "Galaxies in Collision" (Humour)

==================================================================
Submitted by: JMFS19A@prodigy.com (Nancy Carson)           


        Hubble's photographs of distant galaxies indicate galaxies 
are colliding.  Of course, astronomers have had pictures of 
colliding galaxies for quite some time now, but with the vastly 
improved resolution provided by the Hubble Space Telescope, you 
can actually see the lawyers rushing to the scene...
==================================================================




James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:36:49 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Macroeconomics

Greg Smith wrote:

>>>>generally straight lines, and have you ever heard a Traveller
>>>>player/gm/poster talk about elasticity? ;->
>>
>
>I think on some earlier posts the Sayat talked about elasticity and
>spandex....

Indeed!  The Sayat believe that the only way to cure spandex infestations
is by brisk application of extremely high electrical voltages.  Usually
fatal, but anything is preferable to slowly being "absorbed" by this
hideous bioweapon, obviously left behind by the evil, cunning Ancients and
still propagated by the Droyne and various spineless puppet minions (e.g.,
the Templars, the Zhodani Consulate, the Travellers' Aid Society, Mothers
Against Grav Cycle Carnage, etc.).

Spofulam-designed and manufactured spandex treatment facilities will be
brought to every planet in the (former) Imperium by approximately 1210 T.I.
Thank you for your patience.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #199
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